Tomlin hangs on to wannabe's and pet projects to long

[Sword]

BB with the pats wouldn't keep going with the same stink crap every week...if you couldn't perform you were gone....
so this all starts with the coach...

[feltdizz]

BB with the pats wouldn't keep going with the same stink crap every week...if you couldn't perform you were gone....
so this all starts with the coach...

why are you talking like Billicheat has retired? He’s still coaching and 6-7 right now.

funny how just about every time people bash Tomlin on here they use the Pats as the example of doing it right.

sure seems like his coaching isn’t so
hot without Brady as QB.

[Eich]

BB with the pats wouldn't keep going with the same stink crap every week...if you couldn't perform you were gone....
so this all starts with the coach...

We have a young receiving group that is struggling with drops
We have an offensive line that is old and struggling with injuries and run-blocking
We have a HOF QB that's old and immobile but still serviceable and better than anyone else on the roster.

Who do you want to get rid of? And who do you want to replace them with?

[Disco1981]

Another game, another Popcorn major blunder...Sutton clearly knocked the ball out of Allens hand, and Captain Cool, deer in the headlights stands over there clueless as usual...could have turned the whole game around...

Seriously, Has this Clown EVER once...Won a challenge...And I'm being serious!

[Steel Maniac]

We have a young receiving group that is struggling with drops
We have an offensive line that is old and struggling with injuries and run-blocking
We have a HOF QB that's old and immobile but still serviceable and better than anyone else on the roster.

Who do you want to get rid of? And who do you want to replace them with?

This..

We are stuck now; have to dance with the girl we brought to the prom.

[Northern_Blitz]

BB with the pats wouldn't keep going with the same stink crap every week...if you couldn't perform you were gone....
so this all starts with the coach...

Are you saying you think Ben would get cut on the Pats?

Because it would have been impossible to cut Ben before the season.

If we cut him before the season this year, we would have been saddled with a $46M cap hit. That's ~2x the cap hit he's playing under.

It will be "possible" to cut him after this season if that's what you want to see. At that point, he "only" has a $22.5M cap hit.

If he plays out his contract (which won't happen because of the cap hit), he will cost $41.25M under the cap.

We've kicked his cap hit down the road for so long that this is the consequence. The piper will get paid eventually.

Unless he looks totally ineffective over the rest of the season, I think we'll extend him to drop his hit down into the $30Ms. Then try to squeeze as much as we can out of the rest of his career.

But this is still our best chance for a title in a long time IMO. So I hope we can figure out how to do a 2nd thing on Offense.

[Northern_Blitz]

Another game, another Popcorn major blunder...Sutton clearly knocked the ball out of Allens hand, and Captain Cool, deer in the headlights stands over there clueless as usual...could have turned the whole game around...

Seriously, Has this Clown EVER once...Won a challenge...And I'm being serious!

To play devil's advocate here: Do you know he stood there doing nothing? Did he talk to the refs and ask them if they ruled a clear recovery? Or if they would have ruled it a fumble, but a dead ball because they blew the whistle (in which case Buffalo keeps the ball anyway)?

I think it was a fumble and recovery by the good guys. I think challenging would have been a reasonable thing to do.

But I assume that I don't have as much information as the coach on the field. Maybe he screwed up (he's screwed up on challenges before). But maybe he made a better decision because he had more information.

And even if we did get the ball there, the offense would have had to do something with the possession. And sadly that seems like a stretch these days.

[Northern_Blitz]

To play devil's advocate here: Do you know he stood there doing nothing? Did he talk to the refs and ask them if they ruled a clear recovery? Or if they would have ruled it a fumble, but a dead ball because they blew the whistle (in which case Buffalo keeps the ball anyway)?

I think it was a fumble and recovery by the good guys. I think challenging would have been a reasonable thing to do.

But I assume that I don't have as much information as the coach on the field. Maybe he screwed up (he's screwed up on challenges before). But maybe he made a better decision because he had more information.

And even if we did get the ball there, the offense would have had to do something with the possession. And sadly that seems like a stretch these days.

So...I did some digging.

Here's a video clip of the game highlights.

This play happens at ~1:40.

If you watch the play, at about 1:49 the ball is loose on the ground (looks like the ~36). No one all that close to it. And the whistle is being blown.It is then blown several more times before we eventually "recover" it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0eIKWFgIT0


That's a mistake by the refs IMO. But, I believe that means that the play is dead.

I believe that means that it doesn't matter who picks it up afterward.

So, even though the commentators said that it should have been challenged it looks like to me like challenging it would have been a waste of a challenge and a time out.

I don't know what happened here because IIRC there was a commercial break after this play (and before the punt). But I wouldn't be surprised if Tomlin talked to the refs about the play and knew that it wouldn't have mattered if he won or lost the challenge that it was a fumble.

So assuming that the audio is synced with the video correctly in this video, I now believe that challenging would not have been a good decision because winning the challenge just has them punting from a few yards deeper (spot of the fumble I think).

[Northern_Blitz]

This..

We are stuck now; have to dance with the girl we brought to the prom.

This is the truth. For better or worse.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

So...I did some digging.

Here's a video clip of the game highlights.

This play happens at ~1:40.

If you watch the play, at about 1:49 the ball is loose on the ground (looks like the ~36). No one all that close to it. And the whistle is being blown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0eIKWFgIT0


That's a mistake by the refs IMO. But, I believe that means that the play is dead.

I believe that means that it doesn't matter who picks it up afterward.

So, even though the commentators said that it should have been challenged it looks like to me like challenging it would have been a waste of a challenge and a time out.

I don't know what happened here because IIRC there was a commercial break after this play (and before the punt). But I wouldn't be surprised if Tomlin talked to the refs about the play and knew that it wouldn't have mattered if he won or lost the challenge that it was a fumble.

So assuming that the audio is synced with the video correctly in this video, I now believe that challenging would not have been a good decision because winning the challenge just has them punting from a few yards deeper (spot of the fumble I think).

The play occurred on third down. Also, I believe by rule that you cannot fumble forward, so even if it is recovered by the Bills, the ball is returned to the spot of the sack/fumble. Challenging the play would have either resulted in fourth and 11, a lost timeout and challenge from the 26, or fourth and 20 and a punt from the 17. Knowing that it was going to be fourth down anyway, it probably wasn't worth the risk. Even though we saw the ball come out, we've also seen stranger things happen on replay review. The tough part is the quick whistle that did not allow an opportunity to pick up the ball inside the Buffalo 40.

Correct

[NJ-STEELER]

So...I did some digging.

Here's a video clip of the game highlights.

This play happens at ~1:40.

If you watch the play, at about 1:49 the ball is loose on the ground (looks like the ~36). No one all that close to it. And the whistle is being blown.It is then blown several more times before we eventually "recover" it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0eIKWFgIT0


That's a mistake by the refs IMO. But, I believe that means that the play is dead.

I believe that means that it doesn't matter who picks it up afterward.

So, even though the commentators said that it should have been challenged it looks like to me like challenging it would have been a waste of a challenge and a time out.

I don't know what happened here because IIRC there was a commercial break after this play (and before the punt). But I wouldn't be surprised if Tomlin talked to the refs about the play and knew that it wouldn't have mattered if he won or lost the challenge that it was a fumble.

So assuming that the audio is synced with the video correctly in this video, I now believe that challenging would not have been a good decision because winning the challenge just has them punting from a few yards deeper (spot of the fumble I think).


no that's our ball. the whistle blew because they thought it was an incomplete pass.
once its reviewed and deemed a fumble all you need is clear recovery, which we clearly had.

most of these calls that are overturned have the whistle blowing the play dead. its why they put in the "need a clear recovery" in the first place in order to give the other team the ball

you're getting confused with a runner who fumbles and the whistle blows or forward momentum is stopped. totally different situation

[NJ-STEELER]

The play occurred on third down. Also, I believe by rule that you cannot fumble forward, so even if it is recovered by the Bills, the ball is returned to the spot of the sack/fumble. Challenging the play would have either resulted in fourth and 11, a lost timeout and challenge from the 26, or fourth and 20 and a punt from the 17. Knowing that it was going to be fourth down anyway, it probably wasn't worth the risk. Even though we saw the ball come out, we've also seen stranger things happen on replay review. The tough part is the quick whistle that did not allow an opportunity to pick up the ball inside the Buffalo 40.

Correct

you wouldn't lose a TO or challenge if they deem the whistle blew as long as the challengeable part (free hand) was correct and clearly it was

[Mr.wizard]

If they blew the play dead before anyone made a recovery, why would you risk a timeout for no gain? It doesn't matter at that point if they ruled it a fumble, once they blow it dead that's it and they cannot reward the ball to the Steelers. The best outcome is they rule it a fumble and Bill's punt or they, the worst outcome is they rule it a pass we lose a timeout and the Bill's punt.

[NJ-STEELER]

If they blew the play dead before anyone made a recovery, why would you risk a timeout for no gain? It doesn't matter at that point if they ruled it a fumble, once they blow it dead that's it and they cannot reward the ball to the Steelers. The best outcome is they rule it a fumble and Bill's punt or they, the worst outcome is they rule it a pass we lose a timeout and the Bill's punt.


im saying they created this rule in the first place because of the refs blowing the play dead too early.
hence the "need a clear recovery" to overturn possession in these cases

why would you need the added part of "need to see a clear recovery" to overturn the call if the play was never blown dead? its a live play in that case
just unpile the players and see who came up with it

[NorthCoast]

Some of you want to run this team like you're playing Maddenball. Sign players, cut players, trade players, with no regard to contracts and cap hits. Colbert's done a great job navigating the cap for a team with a franchise QB at the end of his career.

[Northern_Blitz]

Some of you want to run this team like you're playing Maddenball. Sign players, cut players, trade players, with no regard to contracts and cap hits. Colbert's done a great job navigating the cap for a team with a franchise QB at the end of his career.

Yep. It's hard to be consistently successful with a market value contract for a HOF QB.

I think we will miss Colbert when he retires.

[Mr.wizard]

im saying they created this rule in the first place because of the refs blowing the play dead too early.
hence the "need a clear recovery" to overturn possession in these cases

why would you need the added part of "need to see a clear recovery" to overturn the call if the play was never blown dead? its a live play in that case
just unpile the players and see who came up with it

Yes but there is time element involved and if the ref is blowing the play dead and everyone stops playing before a recovery is made then the recovery is not made within in the scope of the play. It is at the discretion of the referee whether or not the recovery was made in time and Im sure this was explained to Tomlin.

[NJ-STEELER]

Yes but there is time element involved and if the ref is blowing the play dead and everyone stops playing before a recovery is made then the recovery is not made within in the scope of the play. It is at the discretion of the referee whether or not the recovery was made in time and Im sure this was explained to Tomlin.

how are you sure that was explained to tomlin?

nobody stopped playing. there were players on both teams going after the ball as soon as it landed on the ground.

wouldn't the whole sequence take a lot longer, with tomlin about to throw the flag and the ref coming over to explain his side. the play came back with buff about to snap for the punt.
the NBC crew mentioned nothing about tomlin and the official getting together. kind of strange for such a play.

[NJ-STEELER]

If they blew the play dead before anyone made a recovery, why would you risk a timeout for no gain? It doesn't matter at that point if they ruled it a fumble, once they blow it dead that's it and they cannot reward the ball to the Steelers. The best outcome is they rule it a fumble and Bill's punt or they, the worst outcome is they rule it a pass we lose a timeout and the Bill's punt.

you changed you're opinion pretty quickly. are you trying to blindly defend tomlin here

[Mr.wizard]

you changed you're opinion pretty quickly. are you trying to blindly defend tomlin here

My opinion didn't change, the play was blown dead and the ball was still rolling around, they can't reward it to the Steelers. Read the rule on clear recovery, it says "Therefore, the player that emerges from a non-fumble pile with the ball cannot be awarded possession in replay, because a player obeying an official’s instruction to surrender is disadvantaged. " Also referees issue a preliminary ruling in these cases before entering a review, you see it all the time when they blow a play dead, they tell a coach what was ruled on the field and what could be challenged.

[Captain Lemming]

you changed you're opinion pretty quickly. are you trying to blindly defend tomlin here

Jersey this is the point. When the whistle blows players are supposed to stop competing as the whistle literally means the play is over.

"If" the whistle does not mark the end of the play every time, players would ignore it. If we benefitted because we kept competing after the whistle, how is that fair when you are supposed to stop?

Do you really believe the NFL wants to TEACH players to ignore the whistle?

If Tomlin throws the flag he would have lost the challenge 100 percent.

Every last of the critics would have called him an idiot and if you are honest you'd admit it.

[NJ-STEELER]

Jersey this is the point. When the whistle blows players are supposed to stop competing as the whistle literally means the play is over.

"If" the whistle does not mark the end of the play every time, players would ignore it. If we benefitted because we kept competing after the whistle, how is that fair when you are supposed to stop?

Do you really believe the NFL wants to TEACH players to ignore the whistle?

If Tomlin throws the flag he would have lost the challenge 100 percent.

Every last of the critics would have called him an idiot and if you are honest you'd admit it.

no. you are 100% wrong on losing the challenge.

it was a fumble. he may not have won the challange, but there was nothing to lose at that point. the worse thing they would have done was say the whistle blew and the players stopped. you don't lose a timeout or challenge for that


and the fight after a whistle happens every time a player is said to be down and there's loose ball. don't give me that non sense that the players stopif they see a loose ball and a whistle goes off at the same time

[NJ-STEELER]

My opinion didn't change, the play was blown dead and the ball was still rolling around, they can't reward it to the Steelers. Read the rule on clear recovery, it says "Therefore, the player that emerges from a non-fumble pile with the ball cannot be awarded possession in replay, because a player obeying an official’s instruction to surrender is disadvantaged. " Also referees issue a preliminary ruling in these cases before entering a review, you see it all the time when they blow a play dead, they tell a coach what was ruled on the field and what could be challenged.

go back and read your own post that first said a play can't be challenged once blown dead.

you're wrong. it happens all the time and is why this rule (clear recovery) is in place

[Northern_Blitz]

no. you are 100% wrong on losing the challenge.

it was a fumble. he may not have won the challange, but there was nothing to lose at that point. the worse thing they would have done was say the whistle blew and the players stopped. you don't lose a timeout or challenge for that


and the fight after a whistle happens every time a player is said to be down and there's loose ball. don't give me that non sense that the players stopif they see a loose ball and a whistle goes off at the same time

But he likely asked about it in the commercial break, right?

[Northern_Blitz]

go back and read your own post that first said a play can't be challenged once blown dead.

you're wrong. it happens all the time and is why this rule (clear recovery) is in place

I wonder if those cases have a "clear recovery" pretty early.

It took a long time for anyone to come up with the ball in this case and there are many whistles (likely from multiple refs).

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Yep. It's hard to be consistently successful with a market value contract for a HOF QB.

As well as consistently picking in the 20s of the draft. If you want a shot at drafting a stud, like an inside linebacker who is a top ten talent, you must also sacrifice a third round pick and a second the following year. If Denver wanted a player like that all they had to do was select him with their pick.

[NJ-STEELER]

But he likely asked about it in the commercial break, right?

are we just to assume he did? I guess we could assume he didn't just as easily right?
I find it odd if he did, that the nbc crew didn't make any mention of it

lets go over the scenario again. the play goes to replay and Collinsworth says that "looks like a fumble now we need a clear possession". right before they break he says," it looks like they have one"

they come back from commercial break and buff is already punting the ball.

no mention of us trying to challenge, no mention of tomlin asking an official about the play. no mention of an offical explaining why we can't challenge the play
broadcasting to the the largest football audience of the day and no explanation of what just happened.
were they in shock of all the amazing punting going on in the 1st quarter?

it just doesn't add up