J Allen empty hand play

[NJ-STEELER]

does anyone had a chance to go back and review if there was a clear recovery on that play?
collinsworth alluded to it but they never showed a full replay

i believe the came back from commercial with buffalo ready to punt

[hawaiiansteel]

I believe the Steelers recovered.

if so, then Tomlin should have challenged that play.

[SteelBucks]

I believe the Steelers recovered.

if so, then Tomlin should have challenged that play.

Yep. The Steelers did recover and it was a fumble.

[NJ-STEELER]

I believe the Steelers recovered.

if so, then Tomlin should have challenged that play.

gee, ya think

[Eich]

To me, that no-call/no-challenge fumble and the made-up roughing the passer call against us, were major turning points in the game. We’re not good enough to overcome those.

[rpmpit]

To me, that no-call/no-challenge fumble and the made-up roughing the passer call against us, were major turning points in the game. We’re not good enough to overcome those.

This. We should have challenged the incomplete pass call and no way was that roughing on Mondeaux :mad:

[Northern_Blitz]

This. We should have challenged the incomplete pass call and no way was that roughing on Mondeaux :mad:

The Mondeaux call was BS.

It did look like a fumble to me.

[Eich]

The Mondeaux call was BS.

It did look like a fumble to me.

On BOTH of those, Collilnsworth was quick to point out, before the ruling, that the Steelers were on the good side of the call.

He immediately said it was a fumble. Why Tomlin didn't challenge is a mystery because players were flying to recover that ball as if it was a fumble.

He immediately said that the QB hit was textbook clean. Well within the "tiny 1 foot" target area that you're allowed to hit QBs. And not late.

Those two incorrect calls were killer.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

IIRC The whistle blew before the ball was recovered. So, it is unlikely that the play could be challenged.

[Mr.wizard]

Ya they said during the broadcast that the play was whistled dead before a clear recovery, so challenging the play wouldnt have done us any good.

As far as the roughing the passer goes, you really got me on that one, it looked like a clean play.

[The Glory Days]

On BOTH of those, Collilnsworth was quick to point out, before the ruling, that the Steelers were on the good side of the call.

He immediately said it was a fumble. Why Tomlin didn't challenge is a mystery because players were flying to recover that ball as if it was a fumble.

He immediately said that the QB hit was textbook clean. Well within the "tiny 1 foot" target area that you're allowed to hit QBs. And not late.

Those two incorrect calls were killer.
If only the refs could have made those two correct calls, we wouldn't have let them score on 3 consecutive possessions and our offense would have scored more.

Let's not blame our bad day on the refs having one.

We can't run the ball. Our only offensive strength is Ben's quick delivery, and THAT is a huge liability because defenses don't have to cover vertically. Our defense is decimated with injury and can't hold up against a good offensive line. We are playing our worst ball down the stretch. The refs blowing a few calls have/had nothing to do with the fact that we're not a good team.

The worst thing that happened yesterday was that we made the playoffs. I would almost rather not make the playoffs than be one and done. And we WILL be one and done.

We'll be lucky to win another game this season.

[Northern_Blitz]

If only the refs could have made those two correct calls, we wouldn't have let them score on 3 consecutive possessions and our offense would have scored more.

Let's not blame our bad day on the refs having one.

We can't run the ball. Our only offensive strength is Ben's quick delivery, and THAT is a huge liability because defenses don't have to cover vertically. Our defense is decimated with injury and can't hold up against a good offensive line. We are playing our worst ball down the stretch. The refs blowing a few calls have/had nothing to do with the fact that we're not a good team.

The worst thing that happened yesterday was that we made the playoffs. I would almost rather not make the playoffs than be one and done. And we WILL be one and done.

We'll be lucky to win another game this season.

I agree with the top half of your comment.

But, I'll always take another Steelers game. Even last year when we needed a defensive score to win, I would have preferred to get at least one more in before the long dark off season...what, was it last year we needed the D to score to win, or is it this season?

God, I hope we can figure something out on offense. This year felt so promising 3 weeks ago.

[Northern_Blitz]

I posted this in a different thread, but thought it might be useful to have here since this thread is specifically about this play.

So...I did some digging.

Here's a video clip of the game highlights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0eIKWFgIT0

This play happens at ~1:40.

If you watch the play, at about 1:49 the ball is loose on the ground (looks like the ~36). No one all that close to it. And the whistle is being blown. It is then blown several more times before we eventually "recover" it.

That's a mistake by the refs IMO. But, I believe that means that the play is dead.

I believe that means that it doesn't matter who picks it up afterward.

So, even though the commentators said that it should have been challenged it looks like to me like challenging it would have been a waste of a challenge and a time out.

I don't know what happened here because IIRC there was a commercial break after this play (and before the punt). But I wouldn't be surprised if Tomlin talked to the refs about the play and knew that it wouldn't have mattered if he won or lost the challenge that it was a fumble.

So assuming that the audio is synced with the video correctly in this video, I now believe that challenging would not have been a good decision because winning the challenge just has them punting from a few yards deeper (spot of the fumble I think).

[Northern_Blitz]

On BOTH of those, Collilnsworth was quick to point out, before the ruling, that the Steelers were on the good side of the call.

He immediately said it was a fumble. Why Tomlin didn't challenge is a mystery because players were flying to recover that ball as if it was a fumble.

He immediately said that the QB hit was textbook clean. Well within the "tiny 1 foot" target area that you're allowed to hit QBs. And not late.

Those two incorrect calls were killer.

I now think he didn't challenge it because the result would not have been a change in possession, just slightly better field position.

My guess is that if we get footage of him after the play / during the commercial break (which I think came after the play) it would show him talking to the refs about it.

But it's also possible that we got to the correct decision out of dumb luck.

[NJ-STEELER]

I posted this in a different thread, but thought it might be useful to have here since this thread is specifically about this play.

So...I did some digging.

Here's a video clip of the game highlights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0eIKWFgIT0

This play happens at ~1:40.

If you watch the play, at about 1:49 the ball is loose on the ground (looks like the ~36). No one all that close to it. And the whistle is being blown. It is then blown several more times before we eventually "recover" it.

That's a mistake by the refs IMO. But, I believe that means that the play is dead.

I believe that means that it doesn't matter who picks it up afterward.

So, even though the commentators said that it should have been challenged it looks like to me like challenging it would have been a waste of a challenge and a time out.

I don't know what happened here because IIRC there was a commercial break after this play (and before the punt). But I wouldn't be surprised if Tomlin talked to the refs about the play and knew that it wouldn't have mattered if he won or lost the challenge that it was a fumble.

So assuming that the audio is synced with the video correctly in this video, I now believe that challenging would not have been a good decision because winning the challenge just has them punting from a few yards deeper (spot of the fumble I think).

i answered in the other thread you posted this.

just wanted to add with the plays that have been overturned with a clear recovery in the past.
what is the "clear recovery" all about if the play wasn't blown dead?

isn't it exactly why that part of the rule was created?

[Northern_Blitz]

i answered in the other thread you posted this.

just wanted to add with the plays that have been overturned with a clear recovery in the past.
what is the "clear recovery" all about if the play wasn't blown dead?

isn't it exactly why that part of the rule was created?

This is a good question and I don't know the answer.

I do know I'd be pretty pissed if a play was blown dead, ours guys stopped playing, and the opposing team recovered.

Edited to add:

Sounds like it comes down to a judgment call by the refs on whether players had given up on the play due to the whistle blowing.

Seems like the kind of thing a HC would ask a ref about after the play before tossing the red flag. Would be interesting to see if a conversation like that happened between plays (during the commercial).


I wonder if that would show up on all 22 footage? Or if they only have video during plays.

This was my original point, that we can't assume the HC was doing nothing and that he may have significantly more info than we have.

And its not just one whistle. It's at least 3 that I can hear.

Would be interesting to see how this rule actually gets applied.

[NJ-STEELER]

This is a good question and I don't know the answer.

I do know I'd be pretty pissed if a play was blown dead and the opposing team recovered.

It was 2014 when they changed the rule. before then if a whistle blew the play dead, you could not challenge the play.

after 2014, if you can show a clear recovery, you get the ball.

remeber the shazier play knocking our Gio bernard? that play was ruled down.

we challenged it and it showed bernard losing control of the ball before being down.
the replay showed clear possession by shazier so we were rewarded the ball.

it should have been a defensive TD but since the whistle did blow, we were only rewarded possession at the spot

same situation here

[NJ-STEELER]

This is a good question and I don't know the answer.

I do know I'd be pretty pissed if a play was blown dead and the opposing team recovered.

Edited to add:

Sounds like it comes down to a judgment call by the refs on whether players had given up on the play due to the whistle blowing.

Seems like the kind of thing a HC would ask a ref about after the play before tossing the red flag. Would he interesting to see if a conversation like that happened between plays (during the commercial).


I wonder if that would show up on all 22 footage? Or if they only have video during plays.


i didnt see any give up on the play, i see player's on both teams going after the ball

but yes that's something they can rule

[Northern_Blitz]

i didnt see any give up on the play, i see player's on both teams going after the ball

but yes that's something they can rule

Do you think it's possible that MT asked the refs about it and they said that they thought there woukd be no change of possession because they blew it dead multiple times and there would be no change in possession?

[Eich]

If only the refs could have made those two correct calls, we wouldn't have let them score on 3 consecutive possessions and our offense would have scored more.

Let's not blame our bad day on the refs having one.


No one is blaming our bad day on the refs. We have been stinking badly on offense. But we can simultaneously have a bad day and not be happy with officiating. The defense was giving that game everything they had. It's sad when officiating misses something that costs an outstanding play from the defense.

And the roughing the passer call was a complete joke. Again, eliminating stellar play from the defense.



The worst thing that happened yesterday was that we made the playoffs.
If you can't get any enjoyment out of making the playoffs, then I'm not sure what to tell you. There are teams that rarely make the playoffs and have hopeful fans year after year. Here in the DC area, fans are going crazy over a 6-7 team that might win their division.

We still have a few weeks to tweak things on offense and until we're officially eliminated, I'm going to watch with some level of excitement.

[NJ-STEELER]

Do you think it's possible that MT asked the refs about it and they said that they thought there woukd be no change of possession because they blew it dead multiple times and there would be no change in possession?
is it possible? sure. I mean I guess so

just like its possible he didn't try to do anything. and again messed up the time and place of the game at hand

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

is it possible? sure. I mean I guess so

just like its possible he didn't try to do anything. and again messed up the time and place of the game at hand

Are you assuming that the Steelers could have been granted possession on a challenge?

[NJ-STEELER]

Are you assuming that the Steelers could have been granted possession on a challenge?

I think it had a good chance to be given possession

at worst. We don’t lose a timeout or challenge because the officials rule what’s been argued on this thread.

but we get some clarity with the official explaining what his decision was to both teams and the viewing audience

[Disco1981]

Probable game changing play...And typical Dumb Ass Tomlin stands there with his stupid look......

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

I think it had a good chance to be given possession

at worst. We don’t lose a timeout or challenge because the officials rule what’s been argued on this thread.

but we get some clarity with the official explaining what his decision was to both teams and the viewing audience

I'm pretty sure that because the whistle blew before there was possession there is no way that a review could give the Steelers the ball. If I'm wrong on that then I agree that Tomlin should have thrown the flag. But, if not possible then I'm happy with no challenge.

[Northern_Blitz]

I think it had a good chance to be given possession

at worst. We don’t lose a timeout or challenge because the officials rule what’s been argued on this thread.

but we get some clarity with the official explaining what his decision was to both teams and the viewing audience

If coaches are making decisions to give clarity for the viewing audience, they should probably get fired.

This is a good example of why NFL refs should be mic'd up (like they do in Rugby). Or why announcers should be competent. Although I think their job is basically to appeal to casual fans. So it will be rare that people like us that regularly post on football message boards get interesting info from them.

[feltdizz]

If coaches are making decisions to give clarity for the viewing audience, they should probably get fired.

This is a good example of why NFL refs should be mic'd up (like they do in Rugby). Or why announcers should be competent. Although I think their job is basically to appeal to casual fans. So it will be rare that people like us that regularly post on football message boards get interesting info from them.

I’m not a fan of how they just move on from some of these plays after a commercial without giving more info.

Especially after a commercial break. I can’t see how we didn’t ask an official or have players begging for a challenge.

Also kind of curious how no one really brought it up after the game as a missed opportunity in the media. Usually they make sure to highlight how refs missed a call.

[NJ-STEELER]

I'm pretty sure that because the whistle blew before there was possession there is no way that a review could give the Steelers the ball. If I'm wrong on that then I agree that Tomlin should have thrown the flag. But, if not possible then I'm happy with no challenge.

I referenced on this site the play where shazier knocked out Giovanni Bernard.
Play was blown dead while the ball layed between shazier and gio.
Challenge was made and the Steelers were given possession

[feltdizz]

I referenced on this site the play where shazier knocked out Giovanni Bernard.
Play was blown dead while the ball layed between shazier and gio.
Challenge was made and the Steelers were given possession

That was a running play.. which is treated differently than a “pass” that is ruled incomplete. If the first Steeler recovered it then maybe we get to challenge because we beat the whistles but there was a 5 second scrum after the whistles blew the play dead.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

I referenced on this site the play where shazier knocked out Giovanni Bernard.
Play was blown dead while the ball layed between shazier and gio.
Challenge was made and the Steelers were given possession

I recall a play against Miami a few years ago where Steeler RB was going into the EZ, was ruled a TD, but had actually fumbled prior to crossing the goal line. The Dolphins had recovered the ball but IIRC either the TD signal had gone up first or the play was whistled before the ball was recovered. And, the recovery was clearas it bounced off of the turf and into the hands of the defender. Bottom line, play was ruled dead prior to recovery, Steeler ball, and they ended up scoring on the drive.

So, I believe this discussion is moot without settling the point of Steelers being given the chance to recover the ball. I think most would agree to throw the flag if recovery is an option, but not if it is not.

[Northern_Blitz]

I recall a play against Miami a few years ago where Steeler RB was going into the EZ, was ruled a TD, but had actually fumbled prior to crossing the goal line. The Dolphins had recovered the ball but IIRC either the TD signal had gone up first or the play was whistled before the ball was recovered. And, the recovery was clearas it bounced off of the turf and into the hands of the defender. Bottom line, play was ruled dead prior to recovery, Steeler ball, and they ended up scoring on the drive.

So, I believe this discussion is moot without settling the point of Steelers being given the chance to recover the ball. I think most would agree to throw the flag if recovery is an option, but not if it is not.

The logical course of action for a HC in this situation is to talk to the ref and see if recovery is an option.

We see this kind of thing all the time where coaches walk to refs with the red flag in hand, but end up putting it back in their pockets when they find out the thing they want to challenge can't be challenged / wouldn't work out the way they want anyway.

We don't know if Tomlin did that is this case because they went to commercial without talking about it.

But I think it's probably fair to assume that a conversation like this would have occurred since they had the extra time for the commercial break.

[NJ-STEELER]

That was a running play.. which is treated differently than a “pass” that is ruled incomplete. If the first Steeler recovered it then maybe we get to challenge because we beat the whistles but there was a 5 second scrum after the whistles blew the play dead.

no. It was a pass to Bernard.
but he was already running if that’s what you meant.

why would it matter if it was a run or pass if the play was being blown dead and there was no clear possession by anyone?

Regardless, it’s wrong.
the rule was brought in because of this type of play.
I believe the chargers were the team it happened to.

Screen pass. Incomplete. Refs blow it dead.
coach wants to challenge it was a lateral but isn’t able to because they blew the play dead.

Replay shows pass went backwards, And clear recovery by San Diego.
San Diego got screwed
And the rule is put in the following year for exactly this reason.
it cost them the game

[NJ-STEELER]

I recall a play against Miami a few years ago where Steeler RB was going into the EZ, was ruled a TD, but had actually fumbled prior to crossing the goal line. The Dolphins had recovered the ball but IIRC either the TD signal had gone up first or the play was whistled before the ball was recovered. And, the recovery was clearas it bounced off of the turf and into the hands of the defender. Bottom line, play was ruled dead prior to recovery, Steeler ball, and they ended up scoring on the drive.

So, I believe this discussion is moot without settling the point of Steelers being given the chance to recover the ball. I think most would agree to throw the flag if recovery is an option, but not if it is not.

so there was an explanation for all of what happened. On , I’m assuming, a reg Sunday game vs Miami.

but zero was said about this play in front of a national audience. Seems pretty odd

[feltdizz]

no. It was a pass to Bernard.
but he was already running if that’s what you meant.

why would it matter if it was a run or pass if the play was being blown dead and there was no clear possession by anyone?

Regardless, it’s wrong.
the rule was brought in because of this type of play.
I believe the chargers were the team it happened to.

Screen pass. Incomplete. Refs blow it dead.
coach wants to challenge it was a lateral but isn’t able to because they blew the play dead.

Replay shows pass went backwards, And clear recovery by San Diego.
San Diego got screwed
And the rule is put in the following year for exactly this reason.
it cost them the game

I agree that all these plays should be reviewed but I think the scrum for the ball was so long after the whistle that the refs probably ruled the ball dead.

and yes, clear possession by a receiver that fumbled is a bit different than a forward “pass” blown dead. O think if the first Steeler scooped it up they may have let us review it.

[NJ-STEELER]

everyone paying attention??

multiple whistles blowing the play dead on juju catch fumble. before the ball is bouncing around unpossessed

bengals challenge and get the ball