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NorthCoast
08-12-2019, 09:10 AM
https://twitter.com/TerezPaylor/status/1159182722998382592

Terez A. Paylor
@TerezPaylor
Lots of great thoughts on the #Ravens #Steelers #Browns and how Dak and Mahomes are BOTH eyeing a $40m/year contract 👀

Steel Maniac
08-12-2019, 09:14 AM
Dak is bearly worth 20 mil in reality. He turned down a 30 mil offer already. You dont pay game managers 40 mil a year

Oh wow
08-12-2019, 09:26 AM
Take a look at baseball and basketball contracts. It’s going to keep going up. Might as well accept it.

Captain Lemming
08-12-2019, 09:48 AM
Take a look at baseball and basketball contracts. It’s going to keep going up. Might as well accept it.

Bad comparison.
82 games worth of money results in salaries divided by only TWELVE guys.
What would salaries be if you only paid the starting offense......that is the NBA.

Captain Lemming
08-12-2019, 10:04 AM
Take a look at baseball and basketball contracts. It’s going to keep going up. Might as well accept it.

This is where you miss the boat Dizz. You never factor in the fact that you have a finite cap you need to deal with.
It doesnt matter what piece of that pie a player thinks he "deserves". All that matters is are you better off with him or without him...AND the extra dough saved by not paying him.

QB is the most valuable position. Seahawk RIGHTLY paid a guy who is not easily replaced.

Cowboys? Dak can walk before he gets no 30 mil.....he aint getting more than 20 from me.

There are like 4 QBs that changed teams last year for far less that I rank with Dak,.
All said and done if Zek and Dak get what they want they lock up 50 mil between the 2 of them. That means LESS for other positions.

Steel Maniac
08-12-2019, 10:12 AM
This is where you miss the boat Dizz. You never factor in the fact that you have a finite cap you need to deal with.
It doesnt matter what piece of that pie a player thinks he "deserves". All that matters is are you better off with him or without him...AND the extra dough saved by not paying him.

QB is the most valuable position. Seahawk RIGHTLY paid a guy who is not easily replaced.

Cowboys? Dak can walk before he gets no 30 mil.....he aint getting more than 20 from me.

There are like 4 QBs that changed teams last year for far less that I rank with Dak,.
All said and done if Zek and Dak get what they want they lock up 50 mil between the 2 of them. That means LESS for other positions.

Because there IS a salary cap. A cap put in place so owners don't over spend and are forced to think about short and long term expenditures. Dak is a game manager..period. He can't carry an offense if need be. QB's that can carry an offense are paid the premium. Mahomes is arguably one of the greatest QB's I've seen...and I've seen a lot of them. He has all the tools..nothing that he can't do that is required at his position.

Dak? He isn't even the most important player in his offense. Zek is. No Zek, Dak struggles mightily. And they would be an 8 win team (at best) without Zek.

phillyesq
08-12-2019, 10:45 AM
Take a look at baseball and basketball contracts. It’s going to keep going up. Might as well accept it.

And the more those guys get paid, the less money there is left to go around to rest of the team. That's the way it works with a salary cap. I'd love to see the Cowboys pay Dak a deal in excess of the $30 million he turned down - it would cripple that team for the duration of the contract.

Captain Lemming
08-12-2019, 11:03 AM
And the more those guys get paid, the less money there is left to go around to rest of the team. That's the way it works with a salary cap. I'd love to see the Cowboys pay Dak a deal in excess of the $30 million he turned down - it would cripple that team for the duration of the contract.

Exactly, I'm all for OTHER TEAMS being stupid.

It is an edge for smart teams.

We just need to be one of those teams.

Captain Lemming
08-12-2019, 11:15 AM
Because there IS a salary cap. A cap put in place so owners don't over spend and are forced to think about short and long term expenditures. .

Purpose of the cap is competitive balance. You dont have an old school "Yankees" out spending everybody leading to a dynasty because they have greater income outside of the league structure. The union negotiates that number as a percentage of league earnings.

When I suggest "not" paying a player what he wants, it is not to enrich owners. It is not anti-player. It is because there are times when that money can be spent on OTHER players to the benefit of the overall strength of the team.

Steel Maniac
08-12-2019, 11:43 AM
Purpose of the cap is competitive balance. You dont have an old school "Yankees" out spending everybody leading to a dynasty because they have greater income outside of the league structure. The union negotiates that number as a percentage of league earnings.

When I suggest "not" paying a player what he wants, it is not to enrich owners. It is not anti-player. It is because there are times when that money can be spent on OTHER players to the benefit of the overall strength of the team.

Exactly.. that is the overall purpose of the cap. And I too would love for Jerry to be brain dead enough to give Dak 40 mil a year. But his son seems to be sharp enough to corral his dad and not let him be that stupid.

Oh wow
08-12-2019, 11:45 AM
Bad comparison.
82 games worth of money results in salaries divided by only TWELVE guys.
What would salaries be if you only paid the starting offense......that is the NBA.

No it isn’t. As long as a sport is making money the contracts will continue to rise regardless of the sport or a cap or no cap.

Oh wow
08-12-2019, 11:48 AM
And the more those guys get paid, the less money there is left to go around to rest of the team. That's the way it works with a salary cap. I'd love to see the Cowboys pay Dak a deal in excess of the $30 million he turned down - it would cripple that team for the duration of the contract.


Definitely. But we rarely see a skill position contracts shrink.

The cap keeps going up too.

Oh wow
08-12-2019, 11:52 AM
This is where you miss the boat Dizz. You never factor in the fact that you have a finite cap you need to deal with.
It doesnt matter what piece of that pie a player thinks he "deserves". All that matters is are you better off with him or without him...AND the extra dough saved by not paying him.

QB is the most valuable position. Seahawk RIGHTLY paid a guy who is not easily replaced.

Cowboys? Dak can walk before he gets no 30 mil.....he aint getting more than 20 from me.

There are like 4 QBs that changed teams last year for far less that I rank with Dak,.
All said and done if Zek and Dak get what they want they lock up 50 mil between the 2 of them. That means LESS for other positions.

Dude this is some Captain Obvious stuff.

Of course more for one player means less for another.

The question was “when will it end?”

The answer is it won’t end until the NFL takes a serious financial hit. While I do think Russell Wilson is dynamic what have they won without Sherman and company and no OL? Nada

You always point to rings but they haven’t won jack since they paid Russell. I think they even missed the playoffs and had a few losing seasons since they gave him the bag the first time.

Oviedo
08-12-2019, 12:41 PM
This is where you miss the boat Dizz. You never factor in the fact that you have a finite cap you need to deal with.
It doesnt matter what piece of that pie a player thinks he "deserves". All that matters is are you better off with him or without him...AND the extra dough saved by not paying him.

QB is the most valuable position. Seahawk RIGHTLY paid a guy who is not easily replaced.

Cowboys? Dak can walk before he gets no 30 mil.....he aint getting more than 20 from me.

There are like 4 QBs that changed teams last year for far less that I rank with Dak,.
All said and done if Zek and Dak get what they want they lock up 50 mil between the 2 of them. That means LESS for other positions.
I agree about the worth of Prescott ($20-25M). However, the problem the Cowboys have is that they have NOTHING behind him and have spent 5 years putting all the pieces together for a Super Bowl run. Dak has lots of leverage and will get overpaid...big time

SidSmythe
08-12-2019, 01:02 PM
I agree about the worth of Prescott ($20-25M). However, the problem the Cowboys have is that they have NOTHING behind him and have spent 5 years putting all the pieces together for a Super Bowl run. Dak has lots of leverage and will get overpaid...big time

Good....let it happen to the Cowboys.

These agents are the problem....they know the game. They know how to leverage a highly sought after position.

Oh wow
08-12-2019, 01:22 PM
Good....let it happen to the Cowboys.

These agents are the problem....they know the game. They know how to leverage a highly sought after position.

Agents aren’t the problem.

They just negotiate based on the highest contract from the previous year.

Teams pay who they think will fill seats, keep fans happy and give them a chance to be competitive.

Steel Maniac
08-12-2019, 01:28 PM
I agree about the worth of Prescott ($20-25M). However, the problem the Cowboys have is that they have NOTHING behind him and have spent 5 years putting all the pieces together for a Super Bowl run. Dak has lots of leverage and will get overpaid...big time

He does have leverage. But the reality is that there are only 15-16 guys who can really play the QB position. The rest are just "guys". Dak isn't one of those guys. Trade Dak to the Titans for Mariota..straight up. Bum for Bum. Let the Titans give him the money. lol

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
08-12-2019, 01:34 PM
Zeke sitting out mitigates the exposure for overpaying Dak. If the team loses while he sits then Jones is able to lower the bar for Dak, which is the extra he will have to pay for Zeke. If the Cowboys fare well then Zeke will have to take a bit less as he sees that he is not as important as he thinks. Of course this isn't how it will work.

However, to put a Steeler lens on this, we should be hoping that if anything, Dak is overpaid and Zeke has to settle for less. We won't have a QB approaching the pay window for at least another three years or so (Rudolph, who will probably not have much of a resume at that point as he continues to back up Ben) and will not be in for a huge deal even then - barring unforeseen circumstances.

We have James Conner, coming off at least one pro bowl nod, only under contract through 2020. The chances of him asking for a market value big time deal beginning in 2021 is greater than that of Rudolph, who is already signed for the 2021 season.

phillyesq
08-12-2019, 06:33 PM
Definitely. But we rarely see a skill position contracts shrink.

The cap keeps going up too.

Right, you don't see the salary paid to any position decrease. So if you pay your QB $30 or $40 million, there is less money to go around.

As an example, f Ben had a cap hit of $30 million instead of $26 million, you probably wouldn't see Steven Nelson on the team this year.

NorthCoast
08-13-2019, 09:51 AM
Jones is 76 yrs old. Likely getting desperate for one more SB before he meets his maker.
Desperate owners make desperate choices. The 'Boys may give Dak what he wants.

Oh wow
08-13-2019, 10:06 AM
Right, you don't see the salary paid to any position decrease. So if you pay your QB $30 or $40 million, there is less money to go around.

As an example, f Ben had a cap hit of $30 million instead of $26 million, you probably wouldn't see Steven Nelson on the team this year.

Yup. Instead of acquiring one more skill guy in FA you either use the draft or just go with what you got.

Oh wow
08-13-2019, 10:08 AM
Jones is 76 yrs old. Likely getting desperate for one more SB before he meets his maker.
Desperate owners make desperate choices. The 'Boys may give Dak what he wants.


While I know Jerry wants a SB what he also wants is a stadium filled with fans who think they have a shot at a SB.

You don’t do that by playing hardball with your QB. While I’m sure Dak won’t get 40 mill he will probably get more than 30.

I wonder how Dak feels about Zeke trying to jump to the front of the line.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
08-13-2019, 10:42 AM
I wonder how Dak feels about Zeke trying to jump to the front of the line.

I wonder how Zeke feels about his second fiddle turning down about double the money that he is hoping to receive.

Steel Maniac
08-14-2019, 01:20 PM
I wonder how Zeke feels about his second fiddle turning down about double the money that he is hoping to receive.

Why would a GM allow himself to be in the predicament of having to give the QB, RB and WR all extensions in the same year?

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
08-14-2019, 02:01 PM
Why would a GM allow himself to be in the predicament of having to give the QB, RB and WR all extensions in the same year?

Damn good question. Funny coincidence though.

Here is the state of the game though...Elliot was drafted 4th overall in 2016. Prescott drafted 135th overall the same year. I think it is safe to say that Zeke has had a better career so far. It is also pretty common that Zeke is mentioned as a top 5 back in the league. Dak would rarely receive a mention as a top ten QB. As a first rounder, Zeke can be tagged with the fifth year option. Dak is done his contract and up for a new one after 4 years.

Using Bell as a standard, Elliot would do well to receive a 4-5 year offer around $15M per year and a little over half guaranteed. Dak has (allegedly) turned down $30M per year. Even on a short three year deal he would probably be guaranteed almost as much as Zeke hopes to make over an entire 5 year deal.

As much as we all agree that the QB position is far more important than the RB position, given the choice to choose one of those two players for a team, I go Zeke each and every time.

Mr.wizard
08-14-2019, 06:34 PM
Why would a GM allow himself to be in the predicament of having to give the QB, RB and WR all extensions in the same year?

Well I doubt when they drafted Dak in the 4th round they were thinking that they might to pay him big money and they got Cooper during the season last year.

Oh wow
08-15-2019, 08:37 AM
No one expected Dak to play this good. While people bash him and say he isn’t in the top 10 that RARELY has anything to do with big contracts for QB’s. It’s all about timing. Plus, he is pretty damn good at extending plays and moving the chains.

Zeke is still the best player on that team but Dak also makes them much better.

I can see them giving Cooper a contract they can move on from in a year or 2 to balance things out.

Disco1981
08-15-2019, 12:53 PM
Damn good question. Funny coincidence though.

Here is the state of the game though...Elliot was drafted 4th overall in 2016. Prescott drafted 135th overall the same year. I think it is safe to say that Zeke has had a better career so far. It is also pretty common that Zeke is mentioned as a top 5 back in the league. Dak would rarely receive a mention as a top ten QB. As a first rounder, Zeke can be tagged with the fifth year option. Dak is done his contract and up for a new one after 4 years.

Using Bell as a standard, Elliot would do well to receive a 4-5 year offer around $15M per year and a little over half guaranteed. Dak has (allegedly) turned down $30M per year. Even on a short three year deal he would probably be guaranteed almost as much as Zeke hopes to make over an entire 5 year deal.

As much as we all agree that the QB position is far more important than the RB position, given the choice to choose one of those two players for a team, I go Zeke each and every time.

Spot on...Every time!

hawaiiansteel
08-16-2019, 11:46 PM
Dak is bearly worth 20 mil in reality. He turned down a 30 mil offer already. You dont pay game managers 40 mil a year

Michael Lombardi

@mlombardiNFL

Not paying him 30 is easy for me, not paying 40 becomes laughable. Who the fu@k is advising these players?

Aug 12, 2019


https://twitter.com/mlombardiNFL?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweete mbed%7Ctwterm%5E1161014343724666881&ref_url=http%3 A%2F%2Fwww.steelersuniverse.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthr ead.php%2F30795-Dak-Prescott-Seeking-40m-Per-Year-Deal

hawaiiansteel
08-18-2019, 08:02 PM
Jerry Jones after Tony Pollard impresses: 'Zeke who?'

By Andie Hagemann
Around The NFL Writer
Published: Aug. 18, 2019

Dallas Cowboys rookie running back Tony Pollard once again impressed Saturday night in his second preseason start.

Pollard's back-to-back outings has Cowboys owner Jerry Jones joking to reporters that the 2019 fourth-round pick is Ezekiel Elliott's best negotiator: "Who? Now Zeke who?"

Elliott remains away from the team while the All-Pro running back seeks a new deal. In his absence, Pollard has been able to make an impact immediately for Dallas' offense.

Pollard had five carries for 42 yards and one touchdown in the Week 2 preseason matchup against the Rams.


https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27415806/raiders-gm-ab-all-all-out

Captain Lemming
08-18-2019, 09:46 PM
Jerry Jones after Tony Pollard impresses: 'Zeke who?'

By Andie Hagemann
Around The NFL Writer
Published: Aug. 18, 2019

Dallas Cowboys rookie running back Tony Pollard once again impressed Saturday night in his second preseason start.

Pollard's back-to-back outings has Cowboys owner Jerry Jones joking to reporters that the 2019 fourth-round pick is Ezekiel Elliott's best negotiator: "Who? Now Zeke who?"

Elliott remains away from the team while the All-Pro running back seeks a new deal. In his absence, Pollard has been able to make an impact immediately for Dallas' offense.

Pollard had five carries for 42 yards and one touchdown in the Week 2 preseason matchup against the Rams.


https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27415806/raiders-gm-ab-all-all-out

Quick question:
What RB has the ALL TIME SINGLE SEASON rushing record for the Cowboys?
Aint Hershel, ain’t Emmitt.

Jerry “wisely” (yes it is rare) chose not to overspend on Demarco Murray THE SEASON AFTER HE SET THE FRANCHISE RUSHING RECORD.
They let him walk.
Replaced by Elliot....who now is “indispensable?”

Nah, he ain’t getting paid.....Jones brash statement here seals it. I wish the Cowboys would, it would be stupid.

NorthCoast
08-18-2019, 10:34 PM
Try as they might to reset the RB market, it's not going to happen. It was really the Gurley signing that woke up a lot of GMs to the hazard of big money to the position and things not working out for the team. It's been demonstrated multiple times that good RBs are not all that difficult to find replacements.

Steel Maniac
08-19-2019, 02:05 AM
Try as they might to reset the RB market, it's not going to happen. It was really the Gurley signing that woke up a lot of GMs to the hazard of big money to the position and things not working out for the team. It's been demonstrated multiple times that good RBs are not all that difficult to find replacements.

That’s what I told feltdizz two years ago. There is no need to pay big money when running backs are easily replaceable. Pollard looked good against the Rams; zeke has no leverage. Neither does Gordon.

And at least three more studs are coming out of college next year.

Oh wow
08-19-2019, 05:49 AM
Lmao at thinking 5 carries for 42 yards..in a preseason game? Lmao


Zeke is going to get paid.

Gurley didn’t wake anyone up. It’s football. Players get hurt all the time. It’s not going to stop Zeke from cashing in.

Every year studs come out at multiple positions and it doesn’t stop the best skill positions from getting paid.

Tony Romo 2 days ago:” Zeke is going to get paid and remain a Cowboy”

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
08-19-2019, 09:35 AM
Depends what the definition of getting paid is.

Gurley reset the market. Bell was next man up - even though he wanted to be the guy who reset the market. Typically, next man up gets more than the last guy. He did not. Little by little top RBs will settle into the range of $10-13M. I also don't see guaranteed money growing like at other positions. All the while QBs, CBs, edge rushers will all continue to climb.

flippy
08-19-2019, 09:47 AM
The question is who do you pay?

Most pay QBs, but most QBs are pretty good now and there's not a huge delta and even QBs feel a little replaceable.

RBs and WRs are mostly a dime a dozen and those are positions if you're paying, you're probably not going to be that good of a team.

I think you have to figure out the best equation you can come up with to give your QB more time to make plays and hurry up the opposing team's QB. How you do that is inexact. And I'm sure everyone feels slightly different about who to pay.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
08-19-2019, 09:57 AM
The question is who do you pay?

Most pay QBs, but most QBs are pretty good now and there's not a huge delta and even QBs feel a little replaceable.

RBs and WRs are mostly a dime a dozen and those are positions if you're paying, you're probably not going to be that good of a team.

I think you have to figure out the best equation you can come up with to give your QB more time to make plays and hurry up the opposing team's QB. How you do that is inexact. And I'm sure everyone feels slightly different about who to pay.

I think what you do is sit down with talent evaluators and number crunchers and examine the NE roster for the last 15 years with a fine tooth comb. I think that it is safe to say that their level of talent does not stand above the rest of the league. So what have they done better than everyone else? (other than cheat...lol) They have mastered the concept of player value. They know which players and which positions to put money and security into, and they know which are expendable.

In a league that is constantly referred to as a copycat league, I don't think that most people know what they are even supposed to be copying.

Captain Lemming
08-19-2019, 10:59 AM
I think what you do is sit down with talent evaluators and number crunchers and examine the NE roster for the last 15 years with a fine tooth comb. I think that it is safe to say that their level of talent does not stand above the rest of the league. So what have they done better than everyone else? (other than cheat...lol) They have mastered the concept of player value. They know which players and which positions to put money and security into, and they know which are expendable.

In a league that is constantly referred to as a copycat league, I don't think that most people know what they are even supposed to be copying.

Money post.
Moneyball is what the Pats do better than ANYBODY.

80s Niners? Rice or Lott? He'd pay Lott
90s Cowboys? Emmett or D. Sander? Deon every day.

In TODAYS NFL invest in QBs and DBs over all else.
I am convinced that THERE IS NO RECEIVER OR BACK IN HISTORY that BB would pay elite money to.

HOF QB and elite DB on the same team?
I cannot recall the last time THAT combo over a span of years failed to win it all.

Think about it people......it almost ALWAYS works.

"Can" you win without those? Sure, Philly did it a couple of years ago with NEITHER.

But that combo pretty much will ALWAYS work.

The Pats know this, and allocate their funds to those ends.

RuthlessBurgher
08-19-2019, 11:14 AM
In the modern NFL where teams need to be able to pass and stop the pass, it makes sense that you'd want to pay your QB first and DB's second. And since you want to keep your QB vertical and get the opposing QB horizontal, the next two priorities would be OL and pass rusher.

We seem to be understanding this now. Our top cap hits right now are Ben (QB), Heyward (pass rush), DeCastro (OL), Haden (DB), Tuitt (pass rush), Dupree (pass rush), Villaneuva (OL), and Pouncey (OL).

Plus, the contract that we signed DB Steven Nelson to has a low base salary this year, but his cap hit next year would vault him up into this level as well.

Right now, all of our RB and WR appear to be young and cheap.

Captain Lemming
08-19-2019, 11:32 AM
Ben /Troy....2 rings.
Peyton.....ONLY WON SB when he had AllPro DB talent 2 rings.
Rogers......Charles Woodson....none since, 1 ring.
Even Drew Brees....people forget this, his best teammate, the best DB he ever played with... 1st team AllPro ...Darrin Sharper 1 Ring
R. Wilson.....TWO all pro DBs....1 ring
TOM BRADY?
ZERO SB wins in seasons when he does not have at least ONE Pro Bowl DB

Add to that other non HOF caliber QBs helped by elite secondry play

J. Flacco
B. Johnson

Captain Lemming
08-19-2019, 11:35 AM
Ben /Troy....2 rings.
Peyton.....ONLY WON SB when he had AllPro DB talent 2 rings.
Rogers......Charles Woodson....none since, 1 ring.
Even Drew Brees....people forget this, his best teammate, the best DB he ever played with... 1st team AllPro ...Darrin Sharper 1 Ring

TOM BRADY?
ZERO SB wins in seasons when he does not have at least ONE Pro Bowl DB

Do that SAME exercise with those same elite QBs and elite RBs and receivers......no correlation whatsoever to championships.

RuthlessBurgher
08-19-2019, 11:39 AM
Even Drew Brees....people forget this, his best teammate, the best DB he ever played with... 1st team AllPro ...Darrin Sharper 1 Ring

I think it's probably a good thing that people forget Darren Sharper, who is the NFL's version of Bill Cosby, currently in prison for drugging and raping multiple women in several different states.

Captain Lemming
08-19-2019, 11:45 AM
In the modern NFL where teams need to be able to pass and stop the pass, it makes sense that you'd want to pay your QB first and DB's second.

Agreed.

And to that end "elite" receivers and pass catching RBs are overrated.
Edgerin James, Randy Moss, our own Antonio Brown and Lev Bell......ZERO RINGS despite playing with HOF caliber SB winning QBs.

A James Conner level receiving back and Juju level receiver will excel with the right QB.

Captain Lemming
08-19-2019, 12:00 PM
Two twin Barber brothers....both great talents.
The RB played with a Manning who would wind up with TWO rings AFTER he was gone.
The DB has a ring DESPITE a scrub QB.

SteelerOfDeVille
08-19-2019, 12:32 PM
Do that SAME exercise with those same elite QBs and elite RBs and receivers......no correlation whatsoever to championships.
but, it's no guarantee, right? cuz, ya know, Joe Haden....

Oh wow
08-19-2019, 01:21 PM
but, it's no guarantee, right? cuz, ya know, Joe Haden....

He’s been on this SB ring argument for a long time.

Totally different argument from my argument about these guys resetting the RB market.

Having an all pro DB doesn’t guarantee a SB and neither does not having an all pro RB.

It takes more than 1 or 2 players to win a SB and you have to have a bit of luck as well.

If Ben doesn’t make that tackle? Who knows.

If JH doesn’t return an INT 100 yards??? Who knows.

Who was the All Pro DB on those Giant SB winning teams? Who caught the game winning TD in the 2nd win vs the Pats? Plaxico Burress.

Oh wow
08-19-2019, 01:26 PM
In the modern NFL where teams need to be able to pass and stop the pass, it makes sense that you'd want to pay your QB first and DB's second. And since you want to keep your QB vertical and get the opposing QB horizontal, the next two priorities would be OL and pass rusher.

We seem to be understanding this now. Our top cap hits right now are Ben (QB), Heyward (pass rush), DeCastro (OL), Haden (DB), Tuitt (pass rush), Dupree (pass rush), Villaneuva (OL), and Pouncey (OL).

Plus, the contract that we signed DB Steven Nelson to has a low base salary this year, but his cap hit next year would vault him up into this level as well.

Right now, all of our RB and WR appear to be young and cheap.

and we missed the playoffs last year.

Letís see how things play out this year before we say itís the model to copy.

One thing I think people keep forgetting is NE isnít winning just because of how they build their team. Itís who they have at QB and HC that plays a huge part in their success.

If it was as easy as following their contract model teams would be doing it over and over again.

Itís like telling NBA teams to copy the Bulls model from the 90ís... well, teams didnít have Jordan and the Zen coach so it didnít really matter. When they were clicking they were hard to beat.

Northern_Blitz
08-19-2019, 01:38 PM
Money post.
Moneyball is what the Pats do better than ANYBODY.

80s Niners? Rice or Lott? He'd pay Lott
90s Cowboys? Emmett or D. Sander? Deon every day.

In TODAYS NFL invest in QBs and DBs over all else.
I am convinced that THERE IS NO RECEIVER OR BACK IN HISTORY that BB would pay elite money to.

HOF QB and elite DB on the same team?
I cannot recall the last time THAT combo over a span of years failed to win it all.

Think about it people......it almost ALWAYS works.

"Can" you win without those? Sure, Philly did it a couple of years ago with NEITHER.

But that combo pretty much will ALWAYS work.

The Pats know this, and allocate their funds to those ends.

I think you're pretty much correct about what BB would do.

The question then becomes something like: how important are the non-QB decisions BB makes about roster construction.

I tend to think that the most important thing about their roster construction is that they pay the best QB of all time less than market value.

The rest of the things they do are probably somewhat important, but not enough by themselves to have the success they have.

I'm not convinced another team repeating their strategy would have the same results without a Tom Brady like talent at a Tom Brady like salary cap hit.

Ultimately, I think that a GM's job is something like (i) find elite talent, (ii) keep elite talent, and (iii) pay good and elite talent below market value. I think point (iii) is very important, but without above average to elite talent (especially at QB), it's probably not enough to have anywhere near the success NE has had.

Steel Maniac
08-19-2019, 02:01 PM
The pats have made this system and fine tuned it to the point they have it down to a fine science. I think it can be replicated. I think the eagles have a system pretty similar.

RuthlessBurgher
08-19-2019, 02:19 PM
but, it's no guarantee, right? cuz, ya know, Joe Haden....

Haden played in Cleveland for most of his career, and they pretty much just could have put a jersey on a dumpster fire under center during that era. A top notch DB with no franchise QB is essentially just running a treadmill...you aren't getting anywhere.

In the two years Joe played here so far with a true franchise QB in Ben, that was cancelled out by the presence of a couple of well-publicized highly-paid distractions at WR and RB.

Now that we have Haden plus Ben minus Brown and Bell we can truly put Lemming's model to the test.

If the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year with a top QB and DB in Ben and Haden and no big money diva WR's or RB's anymore, that'll clinch it.

Northern_Blitz
08-19-2019, 04:33 PM
The pats have made this system and fine tuned it to the point they have it down to a fine science. I think it can be replicated. I think the eagles have a system pretty similar.

If that were true, I think guys from the BB coaching tree would have more success than they do.

I think that the combination of Brady's talent / salary + BB's ability to design D that plays to his guys strengths and hide their weaknesses makes them great. Both of those guys are elite and in the conversation for GOAT (if there's even a conversation to be had).

I hope that BB keeps coaching after Brady retires because I'd like to see if he can replicate what he's done with another QB. Then we could get more insight into how much is his system vs. how much is Brady. I think that would be a really interesting experiment.

Same is true with Tomlin (although he's clearly not as good as BB). How much of his success is driven by his QB (and his GM which is an extra variable you don't have to think about in NE since BB is both HC and GM).

SteelerOfDeVille
08-19-2019, 05:08 PM
Haden played in Cleveland for most of his career, and they pretty much just could have put a jersey on a dumpster fire under center during that era. A top notch DB with no franchise QB is essentially just running a treadmill...you aren't getting anywhere.

In the two years Joe played here so far with a true franchise QB in Ben, that was cancelled out by the presence of a couple of well-publicized highly-paid distractions at WR and RB.

Now that we have Haden plus Ben minus Brown and Bell we can truly put Lemming's model to the test.

If the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year with a top QB and DB in Ben and Haden and no big money diva WR's or RB's anymore, that'll clinch it.
I contend that the Pats win cuz, well, they have the best QB in the league. Even Ben, who isn't the top paid QB in the league, makes about $5mil more than him. When you get a guy at THAT level who is going to WILLINGLY make less this year than guys like Eli Manning and Derek Carr, it gives you flexibility.

It's only moneyball because Brady allows it. Given other contracts, he makes about half of fair market value for a guy on his level. Seriously... Brady's going to make $600k more than Jameis Winston this year... that's it.

https://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/2019/

You win championships when you have really good (or better) starters on cheap contracts, that allow for moneyball. When Brady gives in. Or Ben's on a rookie contract. Or Russell Wilson's on a rookie contract. Even those who get there... Jared Goff on a rookie contract. Or Wentz (Foles filled in at a bargain price)...

hawaiiansteel
08-19-2019, 05:11 PM
Ezekiel Elliott found ďZeke who?Ē quip disrespectful

Posted by Josh Alper on August 19, 2019

Cowboys owner Jerry Jones went for a laugh after Saturday nightís game against the Rams when he was asked about running back Ezekiel ElliottĎs ongoing holdout.

Jones quipped ďZeke who?Ē in response to the question and then went on to say that ďweíre having some fun, not at your expenseĒ in reference to Elliott. Elliott didnít find it as amusing as Jones.

Elliottís agent Rocky Arceneaux told Chris Mortensen of ESPN what he and his client thought of Jonesís remark.

ďI didnít think it was funny and neither did Zeke ó we actually thought it was disrespectful,Ē Arceneaux said.

The quickest way to putting a smile back on Elliottís face would likely be to give him what heís looking for on the contract front. Mortensen adds that thereís been ďno real activity yet on negotiations,Ē however, and that suggests it may be a while before anything happens in that area.


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/08/19/ezekiel-elliott-found-zeke-who-quip-disrespectful/

tiproast
08-19-2019, 05:56 PM
I think you're pretty much correct about what BB would do.

The question then becomes something like: how important are the non-QB decisions BB makes about roster construction.

I tend to think that the most important thing about their roster construction is that they pay the best QB of all time less than market value.

The rest of the things they do are probably somewhat important, but not enough by themselves to have the success they have.

I'm not convinced another team repeating their strategy would have the same results without a Tom Brady like talent at a Tom Brady like salary cap hit.

Ultimately, I think that a GM's job is something like (i) find elite talent, (ii) keep elite talent, and (iii) pay good and elite talent below market value. I think point (iii) is very important, but without above average to elite talent (especially at QB), it's probably not enough to have anywhere near the success NE has had.
I think another part of the picture is that BB is both GM (de facto, the Patriots don't have anyone with that title) and head coach (*edit: I see you noted this in a subsequent post). So free agency/trades/drafts are always bringing in exactly the kind of players that the head coach wants. And the head coach trains the scouts, so those guys are on the lookout for the kinds of players the coach knows will fit his system.

And then there's the system, which is really a non-system, in that it is constantly in flux. Here's a question/response from today's press conference:



Q: Do you notice that even after a full year with a guy, you find new ways that you may be able to fit him into the scheme of things?

BB: Sure, sometimes, yeah. I think there’s always a period of growth. I mean, I’ve been with one player for 20 years, and I think there’s still growth. Tom and I talked about a lot of things the last couple weeks just relevant to the offense, plays, evolution of different things that we’re seeing, how to adjust to them, how to handle them. So, I think that’s ongoing. Certainly, if we do it, I would think that would be true of any player, or any coach for that matter. It’s an evolving game. It changes every year, it changes week-to-week, so I don’t think you’re ever just stuck in one spot.

Oh wow
08-19-2019, 08:24 PM
Always think it’s funny when people compare Tomlin and Billicheat’s personnel.

Tomlin doesn’t have the power Billicheat has so it’s much harder to discipline, move players based on money.

Captain Lemming
08-20-2019, 01:47 AM
Having an all pro DB doesn’t guarantee a SB

I SAID EXACTLY THAT....and gave the Eagles as an example. But make stuff up, the only way to win with me.


and neither does not having an all pro RB.

I love all pro backs. On rookie deals. They are not worth paying big bucks if you want a championship.

Since Marshall Faulk TWENTY YEARS ago....name the high paid elite back that was money well spent?


Who was the All Pro DB on those Giant SB winning teams?

You cite one team to make a case that I am wrong? A backup QB won a SB, doesn't invalidate the value of elite QBs.


Who caught the game winning TD in the 2nd win vs the Pats? Plaxico Burress.

A "good" not "great" receiver.....you make my case. :)

Disco1981
08-20-2019, 03:03 AM
I contend that the Pats win cuz, well, they have the best QB in the league. Even Ben, who isn't the top paid QB in the league, makes about $5mil more than him. When you get a guy at THAT level who is going to WILLINGLY make less this year than guys like Eli Manning and Derek Carr, it gives you flexibility.

It's only moneyball because Brady allows it. Given other contracts, he makes about half of fair market value for a guy on his level. Seriously... Brady's going to make $600k more than Jameis Winston this year... that's it.

https://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/2019/

You win championships when you have really good (or better) starters on cheap contracts, that allow for moneyball. When Brady gives in. Or Ben's on a rookie contract. Or Russell Wilson's on a rookie contract. Even those who get there... Jared Goff on a rookie contract. Or Wentz (Foles filled in at a bargain price)...

I've said this all along...Brady TAKES less, But does he?

I don't put ANYTHING past him, or that organization...It wouldn't put it past me if Kraft pulled Brady in his office and said wink wink...You take this much, But you'll really make THIS much..." Reaches in his Desk, And pulls out a huge sack of dough "

Who would ever know, and doesn't this sound like something THEY would do!

Oviedo
08-20-2019, 08:34 AM
I've said this all along...Brady TAKES less, But does he?

I don't put ANYTHING past him, or that organization...It wouldn't put it past me if Kraft pulled Brady in his office and said wink wink...You take this much, But you'll really make THIS much..." Reaches in his Desk, And pulls out a huge sack of dough "

Who would ever know, and doesn't this sound like something THEY would do!
Like I have said before, let's not think Brady is purely altruistic in his salary approach. Unlike most every other QB in the league he doesn't have to earn the generational money for his family. His wife is worth two to three times more than he is and that takes alot of pressure/motivation off Brady to max his earning potential.

Oh wow
08-20-2019, 09:21 AM
I really don’t think there is pressure to earn as much as possible when you are already worth X amount of dollars.

Some people have egos and want to earn every dollar they can from an org (can’t knock them) and others are content making a lot of money AND having the best chance to win.

Captain Lemming
08-20-2019, 09:21 AM
Like I have said before, let's not think Brady is purely altruistic in his salary approach. Unlike most every other QB in the league he doesn't have to earn the generational money for his family. His wife is worth two to three times more than he is and that takes alot of pressure/motivation off Brady to max his earning potential.

It is a long game.

Brady has built a BRAND because of his success which is aided by his taking a financial hit made easier by his wife's success.

Mark my words. I don't know how but his lifelong earnings long after retired will exceed all his peers because of his brand.

Captain Lemming
08-20-2019, 09:36 AM
I really don’t think there is pressure to earn as much as possible when you are already worth X amount of dollars.

Some people have egos and want to earn every dollar they can from an org (can’t knock them) and others are content making a lot of money AND having the best chance to win.

Also truth here. Quality of life in reality won't change EVEN IF wifey wasn't rich.

Brady is essentially the most successful football player IN HISTORY aided by not maxing out his earning potential.

"Settling" for 10s of millions annually for one of the longest careers in history in order to have unparalleled winning......not a sacrifice, it is smart.

Captain Lemming
08-20-2019, 10:16 AM
Who caught the game winning TD in the 2nd win vs the Pats? Plaxico Burress.

You know who it WASNT?
OBJ....Eli's best receiver ever...
You know who the starting runningback was?
Not the Giants all time leading rusher who played with Eli.

Speaking of SB winning catches....Ben threw one....NOT to "the best receiver of the era" he played with, Brown.
What teammate of Ben's has the SB RECORD long run?
Not the "best back in the league" he played with, Bell.

That same season (2005) Ben won with Willie Parker, do you know what first team all pro back had 1800 yards?
Tiki Barber....
Yet Ben, not Eli won that season.
Eli would win it. AFTER Tiki was gone.

Peyton played SIX YEARS with Edgerin James....perennial HOF candidate and Colts all time leading rusher.
He won his first SB THE YEAR AFTER EDGE WAS GONE.
He DID have the ONLY HOF caliber receiver/back on that team.....the exception to my rule Marvin Harrison (actually it is surprising even to me that he is the only one).

But as YOU'VE stated MANY TIMES on this forum, DEFENSE led by BOB SANDERS that season CARRIED Peyton to that championship. As did defense featuring an elite secondary with Aquib Talib and Chis Harris carry an aging Peyton to his Bronco victory.

Northern_Blitz
08-20-2019, 10:24 AM
I really don’t think there is pressure to earn as much as possible when you are already worth X amount of dollars.

Some people have egos and want to earn every dollar they can from an org (can’t knock them) and others are content making a lot of money AND having the best chance to win.

In the NFL players are pretty literally trading life expectancy for money.

If I were in that situation, I'd be selling years of my life as expensively as possible. I'd actually probably retire after my first contract. But, I also think players with that kind of attitude would probably get weeded out at lower levels because you pretty much have to be 100% in to make it to the NFL.

Oh wow
08-20-2019, 11:02 AM
In the NFL players are pretty literally trading life expectancy for money.

If I were in that situation, I'd be selling years of my life as expensively as possible. I'd actually probably retire after my first contract. But, I also think players with that kind of attitude would probably get weeded out at lower levels because you pretty much have to be 100% in to make it to the NFL.

This is somewhat true. Players know the risk. You have some guys who come from nothing who are going to try and make as much as possible and you have players who may have lived more comfortable upbringings who aren’t as concerned with being paid the highest because they prefer stability.

I’m sure Billicheat has a number he won’t pay for Brady and Brady knows he could move to a new team and get huge money but there is loyalty and stability.

Everyone has a number.

Oh wow
08-20-2019, 11:10 AM
You know who it WASNT?
OBJ....Eli's best receiver ever...
You know who the starting runningback was?
Not the Giants all time leading rusher who played with Eli.

Speaking of SB winning catches....Ben threw one....NOT to "the best receiver of the era" he played with, Brown.
What teammate of Ben's has the SB RECORD long run?
Not the "best back in the league" he played with, Bell.

That same season (2005) Ben won with Willie Parker, do you know what first team all pro back had 1800 yards?
Tiki Barber....
Yet Ben, not Eli won that season.
Eli would win it. AFTER Tiki was gone.

Peyton played SIX YEARS with Edgerin James....perennial HOF candidate and Colts all time leading rusher.
He won his first SB THE YEAR AFTER EDGE WAS GONE.
He DID have the ONLY HOF caliber receiver/back on that team.....the exception to my rule Marvin Harrison (actually it is surprising even to me that he is the only one).

But as YOU'VE stated MANY TIMES on this forum, DEFENSE led by BOB SANDERS that season CARRIED Peyton to that championship. As did defense featuring an elite secondary with Aquib Talib and Chis Harris carry an aging Peyton to his Bronco victory.

You really going to use OBJ when they have no OL and Eli can barely get to his 5 step before getting hit?

I seriously doubt that Giants team will be better than the Browns this year.

You keep bringing up a totally different argument but at cool.

Only one team will win a SB every year. Multiple teams will try and most will spend money on skill positions to try and gain an advantage.

You keep yapping about who won a SB but 31 other teams donít win it every year.

Right now we have just about everything you say we need to make a serious run so letís see if you are correct.

We donít even have to win it all. If we go deep in the playoffs then I will concede you are correct.

If we miss the playoffs??

Captain Lemming
08-20-2019, 11:10 AM
You guys arguing that Brady's taking lesser pay is the reason for Patriot success miss this point.
True they have an advantage....but STILL they dont spend on the wrong positions.
They can AFFORD to pay more but dont...why?

Additionally,
I have shown PLENTY OF OTHER examples INCLUDING OUR TEAM to back my contention. Again:
Ben has 2 ring yet NONE with arguably the best receiver and back of the era.
Eli has 2 rings yet none with the best back and receiver in Giants history who he played with.
Brady played with the most explosive receiver in the history of the league (not best...most explosive) Moss and has SIX rings.....none with him.
Peyton....2 rings, none with the most prolific back in Colts history, ONE with Harrison a great player who had never reached 60 yards in a playoff game and had zero postseason TDs that year.
Rogers/ Brees/ Wilson/ one each with no great receivers....Lynch....best back any of these elite QBs won a championship with...all pro once. Defense won that SB.

Look at secondary players on those teams. EVERY ONE SAVE FOR ELI.....elite secondary players.

It has not worked for just NE.
They are just the only ones who are clearly DELIBERATE in those priorities, they have figured it out.

Captain Lemming
08-20-2019, 11:14 AM
You really going to use OBJ when they have no OL and Eli can barely get to his 5 step before getting hit?

I seriously doubt that Giants team will be better than the Browns this year.

You keep bringing up a totally different argument but at cool.

Only one team will win a SB every year. Multiple teams will try and most will spend money on skill positions to try and gain an advantage.

You keep yapping about who won a SB but 31 other teams don’t win it every year.

Look at the bolded part of your quote Dizz.
When has it worked to produce a championship since Faulk?

Dizz, we are talking a twenty year span.

Oh wow
08-20-2019, 11:28 AM
Look at the bolded part of your quote Dizz.
When has it worked to produce a championship since Faulk?

Dizz, we are talking a twenty year span.

I donít care about Faulk or 20 years ago. Itís a totally different game.

2 years ago we were a TE micro-bobble from a number 1 seed and home field advantage.

Saints got hosed on a blatant INT no call last year.

Itís not always due to adding or subtracting a player or 2 or a contract.

But Iím done talking about this SB from 20 years ago. That was never my argument.

Captain Lemming
08-20-2019, 11:30 AM
In the two years Joe played here so far with a true franchise QB in Ben, that was cancelled out by the presence of a couple of well-publicized highly-paid distractions at WR and RB.

Now that we have Haden plus Ben minus Brown and Bell we can truly put Lemming's model to the test.

If the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year with a top QB and DB in Ben and Haden and no big money diva WR's or RB's anymore, that'll clinch it.

I dont think so. Haden "is" good, by the standard we are used to.
Do the Google search and look for Haden in any list:


https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1JZAP_enUS715US718&ei=vQ9cXcjvNZWJ-gSNgbCgCQ&q=best+cornerbacks+in+nfl+2019&oq=top+ra ted+corners+2019&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0i71l8.0.0..22271...0.2..0.0.0.......0..... .gws-wiz.rcHYNpwyj6E

Frankly I think these list underrate him but STILL to try to make the case that he is playing at an "elite" level and EVERYBODY misses that bad?
We are just used to HORRIBLE corners......Haden is "great" by comparison.

If we didnt have 20 million tied up in Brown....we'd get him some help beyond the 2nd tier guy we did add.

RuthlessBurgher
08-20-2019, 11:34 AM
Dak is apparently looking for over $30M, and Zeke and Cooper will likely be commanding contracts approaching $15M.

That means those 3 guys will likely account for $60M per year just for the 3 of them (it might break down in something like $32M/$14.5M/$13.5M, but it will likely be in the neighborhood of $60M.

They just signed DE DeMarcus Lawrence a few months ago to a long term deal averaging $20M. That's now $80M for 4 guys.

On their OL, Zack Martin makes an average of $14M per year, Tyron Smith just over $12M, and Travis Frederick just over $9M, so those 3 guys add another $35M+ to the cap. We are now up to $115M for just SEVEN GUYS!!!

Only one of the guys mentioned so far plays defense (Lawrence), so we're be looking at $95M for 6 guys who all play on offense. Now what happens when other defenders like Byron Jones, Jaylon Smith, and Leighton Vander Esch want to get paid in the next few years?

Captain Lemming
08-20-2019, 11:37 AM
I don’t care about Faulk or 20 years ago. It’s a totally different game.
That was never my argument.

THAT IS my point Dizz. The NFL HAS changed. Paying elite backs has not won a championship this year, last year, going back TWENTY years.
Sure many things affect wins and loses.
But how is it that even by coincedence.....pure chance....NOT ONE RB who "got paid" got rings?

Oh wow
08-20-2019, 11:45 AM
Dak is apparently looking for over $30M, and Zeke and Cooper will likely be commanding contracts approaching $15M.

That means those 3 guys will likely account for $60M per year just for the 3 of them (it might break down in something like $32M/$14.5M/$13.5M, but it will likely be in the neighborhood of $60M.

They just signed DE DeMarcus Lawrence a few months ago to a long term deal averaging $20M. That's now $80M for 4 guys.

On their OL, Zack Martin makes an average of $14M per year, Tyron Smith just over $12M, and Travis Frederick just over $9M, so those 3 guys add another $35M+ to the cap. We are now up to $115M for just SEVEN GUYS!!!

Only one of the guys mentioned so far plays defense (Lawrence), so we're be looking at $95M for 6 guys who all play on offense. Now what happens when other defenders like Byron Jones, Jaylon Smith, and Leighton Vander Esch want to get paid in the next few years?

You shed weight. You can’t keep everyone, some guys production will slip but you keep the guys who give you the best chance to win now.

Mr.wizard
08-20-2019, 12:06 PM
THAT IS my point Dizz. The NFL HAS changed. Paying elite backs has not won a championship this year, last year, going back TWENTY years.
Sure many things affect wins and loses.
But how is it that even by coincedence.....pure chance....NOT ONE RB who "got paid" got rings?

The Ram's paid Gurley last season and they were in the Superbowl, sure they played a bad game and lost but I think it shows that you can pay a RB and win. Besides you only have like 6 teams with "high paid" backs and only 3 of those backs make over 10 mil per year. There are a lot more teams with low paid backs not winning rings also so I'm not sure how you can make the correlation.

Oh wow
08-20-2019, 12:36 PM
The Ram's paid Gurley last season and they were in the Superbowl, sure they played a bad game and lost but I think it shows that you can pay a RB and win. Besides you only have like 6 teams with "high paid" backs and only 3 of those backs make over 10 mil per year. There are a lot more teams with low paid backs not winning rings also so I'm not sure how you can make the correlation.

Exactly. They also paid Cook at WR.

But since they didn’t win... lol.

It’s a silly argument and Zeke is going to get paid.

For me it doesn’t matter if you win the SB. Does it give you a better chance at making the playoffs which gives you the chance to win a SB? If so then it’s good business.

Too many random things happen in a game to point directly to one position and a contract and say it’s the reason why they won or lost.

Northern_Blitz
08-20-2019, 12:49 PM
THAT IS my point Dizz. The NFL HAS changed. Paying elite backs has not won a championship this year, last year, going back TWENTY years.
Sure many things affect wins and loses.
But how is it that even by coincedence.....pure chance....NOT ONE RB who "got paid" got rings?

But you have to admit that part of that is just because the Pats don't do it and they skew all the stats.

Maybe the Rams win last year with a good QB on a rookie deal and an elite RB if they didn't have to play the best dynasty of all time in the SB.

Northern_Blitz
08-20-2019, 12:52 PM
Dak is apparently looking for over $30M, and Zeke and Cooper will likely be commanding contracts approaching $15M.

That means those 3 guys will likely account for $60M per year just for the 3 of them (it might break down in something like $32M/$14.5M/$13.5M, but it will likely be in the neighborhood of $60M.

They just signed DE DeMarcus Lawrence a few months ago to a long term deal averaging $20M. That's now $80M for 4 guys.

On their OL, Zack Martin makes an average of $14M per year, Tyron Smith just over $12M, and Travis Frederick just over $9M, so those 3 guys add another $35M+ to the cap. We are now up to $115M for just SEVEN GUYS!!!

Only one of the guys mentioned so far plays defense (Lawrence), so we're be looking at $95M for 6 guys who all play on offense. Now what happens when other defenders like Byron Jones, Jaylon Smith, and Leighton Vander Esch want to get paid in the next few years?

They let them walk and find new guys in the draft.

I think it would be interesting to look at SB winners and %age of playing on 3rd contracts. I think players on 3rd contracts tend to get paid for past performance and don't live up to their contracts (but maybe sell season tickets).

BB seems to flip those guys for draft picks more than other teams do.

Oh wow
08-20-2019, 01:38 PM
But you have to admit that part of that is just because the Pats don't do it and they skew all the stats.

Maybe the Rams win last year with a good QB on a rookie deal and an elite RB if they didn't have to play the best dynasty of all time in the SB.

Doesn’t matter IMO if you win the SB. If you make it to a SB it’s proof your model was successful.

Anything can happen in one game.

RuthlessBurgher
08-20-2019, 02:03 PM
Now what happens when other defenders like Byron Jones, Jaylon Smith, and Leighton Vander Esch want to get paid in the next few years?


They let them walk and find new guys in the draft.

I call dibs on Vander Esch in free agency! Me likey LVE and Devin Bush in the middle of our D.

RuthlessBurgher
08-20-2019, 03:58 PM
They let them walk and find new guys in the draft.

Jaylon Smith agrees to extension with Cowboys

Posted by Josh Alper on August 20, 2019, 3:49 PM EDT

The Cowboys have announced a press conference covering a contract extension for a current member of the team for Tuesday afternoon.

It won’t Dak Prescott, Ezekiel Elliott or Amari Cooper meeting the media to discuss a new pact, however.

According to multiple reports, linebacker Jaylon Smith has agreed to terms on an extension with the team. Those terms have not come to light at this point.

Smith has been mentioned as a future extension candidate throughout the offseason, but many expected his deal would take a back seat to the offensive players because Smith was under team control through the 2020 season. Smith was set to become a restricted free agent after this season as a result of missing his rookie year with a knee injury suffered while at Notre Dame.

Smith made it clear he wants to be in Dallas for the long term, though, and the sides were able to ensure that will be the case.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/08/20/jaylon-smith-agrees-to-extension-with-cowboys/

flippy
08-20-2019, 05:37 PM
I call dibs on Vander Esch in free agency! Me likey LVE and Devin Bush in the middle of our D.

Seems like a waste when Shazier will be back and league MVP.

flippy
08-20-2019, 05:39 PM
The Ram's paid Gurley last season and they were in the Superbowl, sure they played a bad game and lost but I think it shows that you can pay a RB and win. Besides you only have like 6 teams with "high paid" backs and only 3 of those backs make over 10 mil per year. There are a lot more teams with low paid backs not winning rings also so I'm not sure how you can make the correlation.

I think you can pay a RB to take pressure off a young QB. But at some point, the money's gotta go to the QB and the RB has to leave for the sake of the team's overall quality. Even if you had a RB that would guarantee you 5 YPC on ever touch, he's gonna get hurt with enough carries and it's gonna bite you.

Northern_Blitz
08-22-2019, 10:49 AM
Seems like a waste when Shazier will be back and league MVP.

We'll just need a 3 MLB set.

Steel Maniac
08-22-2019, 02:00 PM
I think you can pay a RB to take pressure off a young QB. But at some point, the money's gotta go to the QB and the RB has to leave for the sake of the team's overall quality. Even if you had a RB that would guarantee you 5 YPC on ever touch, he's gonna get hurt with enough carries and it's gonna bite you.

They were able to pay Gurley because Geoff is still on a rookie deal. So all things being even, you don't pay that stupid money for a position that very replaceable. When Geoff gets his big money contract, lets see how many big money contracts the Rams give the RB position after this one with Gurley.

RuthlessBurgher
08-22-2019, 02:14 PM
I wouldn't advise giving a big money contract to the Toys R Us giraffe mascot.

Geoff is pronounced like Jeff (i.e. Geoffrey the Giraffe).

I can understand a misspelling when somebody has an complicated name like Olasunkanmi Adeniyi or Chukwuma Okorafor.

But it's odd when folks take a straightforward name and just add unnecessary letters to it for no real reason.

Turning Jared Goff into Jared Geoff is like turning Chuck Noll into Chuck Knoll.

NorthCoast
08-22-2019, 05:12 PM
I wouldn't advise giving a big money contract to the Toys R Us giraffe mascot.

Geoff is pronounced like Jeff (i.e. Geoffrey the Giraffe).

I can understand a misspelling when somebody has an complicated name like Olasunkanmi Adeniyi or Chukwuma Okorafor.

But it's odd when folks take a straightforward name and just add unnecessary letters to it for no real reason.

Turning Jared Goff into Jared Geoff is like turning Chuck Noll into Chuck Knoll.

What?!?! Chuck Noll isn't Chuck Knoll!?!?

flippy
08-23-2019, 02:43 PM
What?!?! Chuck Noll isn't Chuck Knoll!?!?

Mean Joe Green says stop ;)

RuthlessBurgher
08-23-2019, 02:57 PM
Mean Joe Green says stop ;)

Everyone knows that it should be Meane Joe Green.

And Kevin Green.

And Eric Greene.

;)

ikestops85
08-23-2019, 03:15 PM
Everyone knows that it should be Meane Joe Green.

And Kevin Green.

And Eric Greene.

;)

Beoom :razz:

Captain Lemming
08-23-2019, 06:36 PM
The Ram's paid Gurley last season and they were in the Superbowl, sure they played a bad game and lost but I think it shows that you can pay a RB and win. Besides you only have like 6 teams with "high paid" backs and only 3 of those backs make over 10 mil per year. There are a lot more teams with low paid backs not winning rings also so I'm not sure how you can make the correlation.

I am on record saying that you can get away with paying a back big bucks when the QB is on a rookie deal. So paying Gurley doesnt hurt as much.
THAT SAID there are better ways to spend that excess money.

I contend that their outstanding oline can make an average back shine.

Proof?
Gurley gets hurt, Rams sign old, washed up CJ Andersen who was averaging about 4 carries a game as a backup Panther.

As a starter for injured Gurley, Anderson averaged about 150 yards per start (Gurley averaged 90) at 7 yards per carry.
Rams won both games scoring 31 and a Rams season high of 48 in those games CJ started.
Rushing, scoring.....all trended upward.

Do I think CJ sustains that pace over a season? No

How exactly were the Rams "hurt" by losing Gurley?

A better back than CJ aint hard to find for A FRACTION of what they waste on Gurley.

They will STILL have a dominant run game, AND be able to address another harder to fill position.

Dude it is EXACTLY what happened when we didnt miss a step with old man DeAngelo Williams.
Heck any old former Panther can get it done.

Can we find out how to get a hold of Jonathan Stewart? :)

NorthCoast
08-23-2019, 06:40 PM
Seems the 'Boys offered a contract to Zeke <Gurley but > Bell. Not sitting well with Zeke.... Jerry ain't happy that he isn't appreciating the offer....

.. sound familiar?!?!

Captain Lemming
08-23-2019, 07:26 PM
But you have to admit that part of that is just because the Pats don't do it and they skew all the stats.

In the Brady/Belechick era, 12 times "not the Patriots" was the SB champion.
Twelve teams....NONE assisted by paying a top back premium bucks.
ONE had a high paid elite receiver (M. Harrison) who did not score once in the playoffs and averaged less than 50 yards a game.

I shall name the elite DBs on those NOT the Patriots teams:
2002 Rhonde Barber John Lynch....both multi-season all pros
2005 Troy P
2006 Bob Sanders
2008 Troy P
2009 Darrin Sharper
2010 C Woodson
2012 E. Reed
2013 Sherman/ E Thomas
1015 Talib/Harris



Maybe the Rams win last year with a good QB on a rookie deal and an elite RB if they didn't have to play the best dynasty of all time in the SB.

The game was won 13-3.
LIKELY the Rams win if the Pats dont pay PREMIUM DOLLARS for the best corner in the NFL who DOMINATED that day.

Captain Lemming
08-23-2019, 07:49 PM
Patriots "SKEW" the stats?
They PROVE the stats.

New HOFer Ty Law.....gone in 2005.....drought.
NINE STRAIGHT SEASONS.....no SB victories.

10th season.....grab Revis/ Butler....Pats are back.

Pats arent perfect.
You want to know the difference between championship Pat teams and those who fell short?
LOOK AT THE SECONDARY.

BB biggest mistakes:
1. Getting out bid for Talib who was just turning the "corner" when the Broncs stole him.
2. Making Butler sit the SB (there is a theory he did it to make a point to ownership)

Either of those choices different......they would have even more rings.

Especially, if they had Talib for his prime........scary

Captain Lemming
08-23-2019, 10:13 PM
Seems the 'Boys offered a contract to Zeke <Gurley but > Bell. Not sitting well with Zeke.... Jerry ain't happy that he isn't appreciating the offer....

.. sound familiar?!?!

Come on Z sign it.
The more stupid everyone else is the better.

hawaiiansteel
08-23-2019, 11:05 PM
Ezekiel Elliott contract: Cowboys' VP Stephen Jones 'very optimistic' as he provides a hint on the current timetable

Elliott continues to seek a new contract for the Cowboys, working out in Cabo while waiting for a deal

by Jeff Kerr

The Dallas Cowboys don't appear to be worried Ezekiel Elliott's holdout will last much longer. With the Cowboys season opener against the New York Giants 15 days away, the clock is ticking for Dallas to get Elliott back into "The Star" and have him suited up for Week 1.

Cowboys COO and Executive Vice President Stephen Jones is "very optimistic" the team will get a new contract done with Elliott, who is seeking to be one of the highest-paid running backs in football.

"We feel confident things will get done," Jones said on 105.3 The Fan in Dallas Friday. "Things happen real quick, sometimes within hours."

Jones also admitted both sides aren't close because "there's not a lot of activity," giving some bad news regarding the Elliott contract situation. This comes on the heels of ESPN NFL writer Ed Werder's report that Dallas offered Elliott a contract that would make him the second-highest paid running back in the NFL.

Los Angeles Rams running back Todd Gurley is the highest-paid running back in the NFL, making an average annual value of $14.375 million a year. New York Jets running back Le'Veon Bell currently sits at No. 2, making $13.125 million on average. Elliott would surpass Bell's salary from the reported Cowboys offer.

Elliott returned to Cabo this past week, where he has been training during his holdout. The added twist in the ongoing saga is NFL Hall of Fame running back and former league MVP Marshall Faulk is training him, defending Zeke's contract demands while questioning the contract negotiations for Dak Prescott.

"This kid has basically carried this team the past three years," Faulk said of Elliott. "I'll be honest with you: If I'm Zeke, and I was sitting down, and I saw that they signed Jaylon Smith, I'm pissed. I'm just saying, I'm pissed."

Elliott has led the NFL in rushing in two of his three NFL seasons, while also leading the NFL in yards per game in all of his seasons. Elliott has 868 carries for 4,048 yards and 28 touchdowns in his career, averaging 4.7 yards per carry. The Cowboys are 28-12 in the 40 games Elliott has played, winning two NFC East titles.

Elliott is on the books for the final year of his rookie deal, earning $7.94 million this year. He has a fifth-year option on his rookie deal for 2020, worth $9.099 million.

Under Elliott's rookie deal, his average annual value has him has the 10th highest-paid running back in football. Clearly, he's worth more than that.


https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/ezekiel-elliott-contract-cowboys-vp-stephen-jones-very-optimistic-as-he-provides-a-hint-on-current-timetable/

flippy
08-24-2019, 05:21 AM
I am on record saying that you can get away with paying a back big bucks when the QB is on a rookie deal. So paying Gurley doesnt hurt as much.
THAT SAID there are better ways to spend that excess money.

I contend that their outstanding oline can make an average back shine.

Proof?
Gurley gets hurt, Rams sign old, washed up CJ Andersen who was averaging about 4 carries a game as a backup Panther.

As a starter for injured Gurley, Anderson averaged about 150 yards per start (Gurley averaged 90) at 7 yards per carry.
Rams won both games scoring 31 and a Rams season high of 48 in those games CJ started.
Rushing, scoring.....all trended upward.

Do I think CJ sustains that pace over a season? No

How exactly were the Rams "hurt" by losing Gurley?

A better back than CJ aint hard to find for A FRACTION of what they waste on Gurley.

They will STILL have a dominant run game, AND be able to address another harder to fill position.

Dude it is EXACTLY what happened when we didnt miss a step with old man DeAngelo Williams.
Heck any old former Panther can get it done.

Can we find out how to get a hold of Jonathan Stewart? :)

Is Christian McCaffrey old enough yet for you?

Oh wow
08-24-2019, 05:39 AM
He’s going to get paid.

Captain Lemming
08-24-2019, 09:11 AM
Heís going to get paid.

We can only hope the Cowboys and the rest of the league are so dumb. :)

Captain Lemming
08-24-2019, 09:14 AM
Is Christian McCaffrey old enough yet for you?

Is he old enough to be cheap? :nono:nono:nono

Oh wow
08-24-2019, 01:20 PM
We can only hope the Cowboys and the rest of the league are so dumb. :)

P.A.I.D.

The whole bag

hawaiiansteel
08-31-2019, 01:33 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDK-9HrUcAAEhKl?format=jpg&name=small

Disco1981
08-31-2019, 04:59 AM
Patriots "SKEW" the stats?
They PROVE the stats.

New HOFer Ty Law.....gone in 2005.....drought.
NINE STRAIGHT SEASONS.....no SB victories.

10th season.....grab Revis/ Butler....Pats are back.

Pats arent perfect.
You want to know the difference between championship Pat teams and those who fell short?
LOOK AT THE SECONDARY.

BB biggest mistakes:
1. Getting out bid for Talib who was just turning the "corner" when the Broncs stole him.
2. Making Butler sit the SB (there is a theory he did it to make a point to ownership)

Either of those choices different......they would have even more rings.

Especially, if they had Talib for his prime........scary

And if Seattle and Denver run the ball...They have less

Mr.wizard
08-31-2019, 06:44 AM
And if Seattle and Denver run the ball...They have less

Don't forget Atlanta

Disco1981
08-31-2019, 07:28 AM
Don't forget Atlanta

Yes Atlanta...I remember screaming at the TV...If they run it on their last 2 possessions, there is a 99.999999999 chance they win...Coach panicked and out thought himself

NorthCoast
08-31-2019, 07:51 AM
Dez Bryant backing Zek's holdout.

Meanwhile Wisconsin's star RB tore it up in first game of season.

,,,newsflash Zek, .. good RBs are not that hard to find.

Oh wow
08-31-2019, 08:43 AM
Dez Bryant backing Zek's holdout.

Meanwhile Wisconsin's star RB tore it up in first game of season.

,,,newsflash Zek, .. good RBs are not that hard to find.

Wisconsin RBís always tear it up... in college.

and they played a USF team who lost 6 straight to end the season last year.

Run through Michigan and Ohio State and then I might take him seriously.

Captain Lemming
08-31-2019, 10:48 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDK-9HrUcAAEhKl?format=jpg&name=small

Without McCoy.....you ADD a better back than his current backup.
Might have already drafted him.

Cowboys all time single season rushing leader......
Not Emmitt......Not Elliot....

DeMarco Murray...2014. They let him walk THE VERY NEXT SEASON.

The Cowboys could have been “saddled” (see what I did there) with an outrageous salary for Demarco but instead went from grabbing an old but cheaper Darrin McFadden to the now “irreplaceable” Elliott.

This ain’t the 90s and Emmitt people. Backs are PLENTIFUL today.

Last NFC East SB champ.....not the one with Zek.

The one with Legarrette “three ring” Blount and Jay “a single thousand yard season” Ajayi.
Either could have been had for a ham sandwich and a coke that year.

Those championship Eagles had more rushing yards than we had paying Bell thrice the price they paid for BOTH of those backs. COMBINED.

RuthlessBurgher
08-31-2019, 11:47 AM
The one with Legarrette “three ring” Blount and Jay “a single thousand yard season” Ajayi.
Either could have been had for a ham sandwich and a coke that year.

While Zeke’s holdout continues, Blount and Ajayi both happen to still be free agents.

Oh wow
08-31-2019, 02:59 PM
Without McCoy.....you ADD a better back than his current backup.
Might have already drafted him.

Cowboys all time single season rushing leader......
Not Emmitt......Not Elliot....

DeMarco Murray...2014. They let him walk THE VERY NEXT SEASON.

The Cowboys could have been “saddled” (see what I did there) with an outrageous salary for Demarco but instead went from grabbing an old but cheaper Darrin McFadden to the now “irreplaceable” Elliott.

This ain’t the 90s and Emmitt people. Backs are PLENTIFUL today.

Last NFC East SB champ.....not the one with Zek.

The one with Legarrette “three ring” Blount and Jay “a single thousand yard season” Ajayi.
Either could have been had for a ham sandwich and a coke that year.

Those championship Eagles had more rushing yards than we had paying Bell thrice the price they paid for BOTH of those backs. COMBINED.

Cowboys went 4-12 that next year.

Then they drafted Elliot and went 13-3.

Made the playoffs 2 out of 3 years with Zeke.

This ain’t the 90’s. Stop talking about Smith, Faulk, etc.

Teams need to make the playoffs to have a chance to win a SB.

Captain Lemming
08-31-2019, 03:50 PM
Cowboys went 4-12 that next year.

Then they drafted Elliot and went 13-3.

Made the playoffs 2 out of 3 years with Zeke.

This ain’t the 90’s. Stop talking about Smith, Faulk, etc.

Teams need to make the playoffs to have a chance to win a SB.

Oh you are HILARIOUS Dizz.
Cowboys were 3-1 with starter Tony Romo at QB.
Funny how little the running back mattered with a capable starter at QB

Oh wow
08-31-2019, 04:16 PM
Oh you are HILARIOUS Dizz.
Cowboys were 3-1 with starter Tony Romo at QB.
Funny how little the running back mattered with a capable starter at QB

Players get hurt. It’s not like Romo won a lot of playoff games.

Captain Lemming
08-31-2019, 04:35 PM
Players get hurt. It’s not like Romo won a lot of playoff games.

YOU made the case about regular season numbers. They were fine with the starting QB rather than the likes of Kellen Moore.

You wanna talk playoffs?

Romos Cowboys were JUST like us.
All offensive SKILL heavy......average or below defensive backfield.

Give Romo the “legion of boom” the Seahawks had, and give Wilson Romos elite offensive “skill players”.

Romo would have the jewelry not Wilson.

hawaiiansteel
08-31-2019, 05:11 PM
Ian Rapoport

@RapSheet

Some potentially big news for the #Chargers: They have given the reps for Melvin Gordon permission to seek a trade, sources say. Heíll explore his options, which include returning. But big few days.

Aug 31, 2019


https://twitter.com/RapSheet?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed %7Ctwterm%5E1167889647629787137&amp;ref_url=http%3A%2F %2Fwww.steelersuniverse.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread. php%2F30642-Melvin-Gordon-Influenced-By-Le%25E2%2580%2599Veon-Bell-%25E2%2580%2598Very-Serious%25E2%2580%2599-About-Not-Playing-Under-5th-Year-Option-For-Chargers%2Fpage2

Captain Lemming
08-31-2019, 05:31 PM
Ian Rapoport

@RapSheet

Some potentially big news for the #Chargers: They have given the reps for Melvin Gordon permission to seek a trade, sources say. He’ll explore his options, which include returning. But big few days.

Aug 31, 2019


https://twitter.com/RapSheet?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed %7Ctwterm%5E1167889647629787137&amp;ref_url=http%3A%2F %2Fwww.steelersuniverse.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread. php%2F30642-Melvin-Gordon-Influenced-By-Le%25E2%2580%2599Veon-Bell-%25E2%2580%2598Very-Serious%25E2%2580%2599-About-Not-Playing-Under-5th-Year-Option-For-Chargers%2Fpage2

Should have done this with Bell in 2017.

Oh wow
08-31-2019, 07:25 PM
YOU made the case about regular season numbers. They were fine with the starting QB rather than the likes of Kellen Moore.

You wanna talk playoffs?

Romos Cowboys were JUST like us.
All offensive SKILL heavy......average or below defensive backfield.

Give Romo the “legion of boom” the Seahawks had, and give Wilson Romos elite offensive “skill players”.

Romo would have the jewelry not Wilson.
First, my point is the RB position has value and if you lose a QB to injury you have a better chance with an elite RB.


Second, give anyone the Legion of Boom and they probably have a ring.

Give Romo a Zeke and he has multiple playoff wins. Probably has a legit shot at a ring.

hawaiiansteel
08-31-2019, 07:39 PM
Adam Schefter

@AdamSchefter

Here's the news Dallas has wanted: Talks between the Cowboys and RB Ezekiel Elliott are intensifying, with both sides aiming to wrap up a new deal this weekend, league sources tell ESPN.

Aug 31, 2019


https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweete mbed%7Ctwterm%5E1167837942687121409&amp;ref_url=http%3 A%2F%2Fwww.steelersuniverse.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthr ead.php%2F30964-RB-Ezekiel-Elliott-very-close-to-a-new-deal-with-the-Cowboys

Northern_Blitz
09-01-2019, 07:17 AM
Should have done this with Bell in 2017.

The team wanted him back. I don't think anyone took the potential of him not playing under the tag seriously.

Captain Lemming
09-01-2019, 10:17 AM
The team wanted him back. I don't think anyone took the potential of him not playing under the tag seriously.

You miss my point. I think the team made a mistake in wanting him at what we offered.

I wouldn't pay elite money for ANY running back in NFL history.

Should have never tagged him the first time...let him walk....15 million we could have spent elsewhere.

RuthlessBurgher
09-03-2019, 12:17 PM
Adam Schefter

@AdamSchefter

Here's the news Dallas has wanted: Talks between the Cowboys and RB Ezekiel Elliott are intensifying, with both sides aiming to wrap up a new deal this weekend, league sources tell ESPN.

Aug 31, 2019


https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweete mbed%7Ctwterm%5E1167837942687121409&amp;ref_url=http%3 A%2F%2Fwww.steelersuniverse.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthr ead.php%2F30964-RB-Ezekiel-Elliott-very-close-to-a-new-deal-with-the-Cowboys

Ezekiel Elliott deal close to done

Posted by Mike Florio on September 3, 2019, 12:05 PM EDT

More likely than not, the Cowboys and running back Ezekiel Elliot will get a new deal done today. The rumors of a done deal already are commencing.

The chatter as of this moment in knowledgeable league circles is that the team and the player have come to terms on a six-year, $90 million extension. A source with directly knowledge of the situation tells PFT that the deal is not yet done, but that it’s close.

If it’s a six-year, $90 million extension, the deal will have a new-money average of $15 million per year. But it also would tie Elliott to the Cowboys for eight years, since he has two years left on his rookie deal.

The structure will show whether the Cowboys are tied to Elliott for one, two, three years or more.

So stay tuned. It’s looking more and more likely that Elliott will be suiting up for the Cowboys when they host the Giants on Sunday.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/09/03/ezekiel-elliott-deal-close-to-done/

papillon
09-03-2019, 12:47 PM
I hope they guarantee all of it.

Pappy

Oh wow
09-03-2019, 02:14 PM
No surprise. I knew Zeke would get big money and he deserves it.

flippy
09-03-2019, 03:05 PM
No surprise. I knew Zeke would get big money and he deserves it.

On one hand, I agree, even though I wouldn't want to be the owner to spend money on a RB.

But you gotta spend it on someone. Sometimes you have to zig when others zag to try and compete in a different way. And trying something is better than doing nothing and spending nothing like the Pirates.

Oh wow
09-03-2019, 03:46 PM
On one hand, I agree, even though I wouldn't want to be the owner to spend money on a RB.

But you gotta spend it on someone. Sometimes you have to zig when others zag to try and compete in a different way. And trying something is better than doing nothing and spending nothing like the Pirates.

They are a much better team with Zeke as the focus of the offense.

It’s rarely a bad idea to give the best player on either side of the ball a nice contract that keeps them in your uniform for the next 5 years.

flippy
09-03-2019, 04:25 PM
They are a much better team with Zeke as the focus of the offense.

Itís rarely a bad idea to give the best player on either side of the ball a nice contract that keeps them in your uniform for the next 5 years.

Keeps you competitive. Keeps you relevant in the fantasy football world which is also important on some level.

But does it help you compete for the next Lombardi? Not really, imho.

Oh wow
09-03-2019, 05:05 PM
Keeps you competitive. Keeps you relevant in the fantasy football world which is also important on some level.

But does it help you compete for the next Lombardi? Not really, imho.

Says who?

Rams just made a SB.

Dallas made the playoffs 2 of 3 years with Zeke. Playoffs give you a chance to win a SB.

The idea that not paying a RB gives you a better chance is completely false.

Pointing out one year when a team wins a SB and excluding all the other teams that had the same formula that DIDN’T make it that same year is the definition of cherry picking.

KC barely lost an AFCCG because a player was offsides. Saints missed out on a SB because the refs blew an obvious pass interference call.

Oh wow
09-03-2019, 05:10 PM
and can anyone tell me which teams besides the Pats have the best chance to win a SB based on their cap distribution.

A few people on here love to look back and tell us why we should invest a certain way but rarely does that person predict the SB contenders before the season.

NorthCoast
09-03-2019, 05:52 PM
Dallas and Zeke... we'll see who gets holding the bag. Hint... it won't be Zeke.

Let's see how these big money RB do this season in getting their teams to the post season... notice I set the bar lower, only asking for a playoff appearance.

flippy
09-03-2019, 06:07 PM
Says who?

Rams just made a SB.

Dallas made the playoffs 2 of 3 years with Zeke. Playoffs give you a chance to win a SB.

The idea that not paying a RB gives you a better chance is completely false.

Pointing out one year when a team wins a SB and excluding all the other teams that had the same formula that DIDNíT make it that same year is the definition of cherry picking.

KC barely lost an AFCCG because a player was offsides. Saints missed out on a SB because the refs blew an obvious pass interference call.

I get that you have to pay the guys you have. And sometimes that's a RB, WR, TE, whatever. And you have to do the best you can with the players you have.

Can it get you to the playoffs? Sure. But will it get you to the top? Likely no. And that's good enough for most teams.

Steel Maniac
09-03-2019, 06:19 PM
Dallas and Zeke... we'll see who gets holding the bag. Hint... it won't be Zeke.

Let's see how these big money RB do this season in getting their teams to the post season... notice I set the bar lower, only asking for a playoff appearance.

Dallas isn't even going to win that division. LOL

Oviedo
09-03-2019, 06:27 PM
No surprise. I knew Zeke would get big money and he deserves it.
Until his next suspension

Oh wow
09-03-2019, 09:55 PM
Dallas and Zeke... we'll see who gets holding the bag. Hint... it won't be Zeke.

Let's see how these big money RB do this season in getting their teams to the post season... notice I set the bar lower, only asking for a playoff appearance.

Of course the team holds the bag. They always hold the bag.

NorthCoast
09-03-2019, 10:18 PM
Pretty convincing evidence on why Zeke isn't worth what he is asking (and for that matter, why LBell wasn't worth his asking). On the other hand, I fully support other teams being stupid with their money and cap.....


(sorry, have to post in three pieces due to length)


JUL. 18, 2019, AT 2:04 PMEzekiel Elliott Is Not Worth The Money He Wants


By Josh Hermsmeyer (https://fivethirtyeight.com/contributors/josh-hermsmeyer/)


https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/GettyImages-1080069952-4x3.jpg?w=575
Ezekiel Elliott is threatening a holdout unless the Dallas Cowboys give him a new contract.MAX FAULKNER / FORT WORTH STAR-
In what is becoming an annual event, a high-profile running back is threatening a preseason holdout (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2845682-cowboys-rumors-ezekiel-elliott-privately-said-hes-planning-contract-holdout). On Monday, reports surfaced that Ezekiel Elliott will sit out training camp unless he gets a new contract from the Dallas Cowboys. Two days earlier, Melvin Gordon had announced a holdout from the Los Angeles Chargers and cited Elliott as an example of why running backs should command higher pay. Perhaps Zeke and his agent read Gordon’s comments and decided to strike while the iron is hot. Perhaps a holdout was always planned. Whatever the case, Elliott has made clear that he believes he’s underpaid and wants a new contract sooner rather than later.
The holdout threat may have taken Dallas a bit by surprise. It’s not as if Zeke isn’t in line for competitive compensation. Dallas picked up Elliott’s fifth-year option in April, guaranteeing him nearly $9.1 million in 2020 — money that will make Elliott the fourth-highest-paid running back (https://overthecap.com/position/running-back/) in the league that year. But Zeke’s focus is on 2019, not 2020. According to reports, Elliott believes that the Cowboys plan to use him heavily this season, and he wants a long-term deal in place as an insurance policy against injury.
For their part, Dallas appears to want to keep Elliott around. Stephen Jones, Dallas director of player personnel, has indicated that signing Eliott to an extension is a team priority (https://www.dallascowboys.com/news/stephen-jones-re-signing-zeke-is-a-priority). In an odd bit of negotiating, Jones even set the floor for a deal at Todd Gurley’s recent contract — a contract that is currently the highest in the league at the position. Still, Elliott’s camp is betting they can leverage Zeke’s absence into an early deal, and based on their previous maneuvering, I’m betting that the Cowboys will cave.
The question is: Why?
In a league that is steadily paying less for running back production (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/running-backs-are-finally-getting-paid-what-theyre-worth/), capitulating to an Elliott holdout and making him the highest-paid ball carrier in the league would be a deeply contrarian move. According to data from Overthecap, the share of average team salary allocated to all rostered running backs has fallen from 6.8 percent of spending in 2013 to 4.5 percent in 2019.
Even elite backs aren’t immune from feeling the pinch. Le’Veon Bell sat out all of last season expecting to make up his lost wages on the free-agent market. Instead he ended up settling for a contract with less average compensation per year than what he was initially offered by Pittsburgh. It’s been a slow, incremental change, but teams across the league have moved toward an asset allocation model that favors many low-priced specialists over an expensive three-down bell cow.
Dallas already bucked the trend of devaluing running backs when they took Elliott with the fourth overall pick of the 2016 draft and then proceeded to give him 868 carries over his first three seasons. That, apparently, is just how the Cowboys are built. Jason Garrett is absolutely determined to “run the ****ing ball ” But even if the Cowboys have fallen out of step with a league that believes paying “high first-round draft pick” money to a running back is gauche, it still pales in comparison to what will come next. Assuming the cap rises to $200 million in 2020,1 ) Zeke’s salary alone in his optioned fifth year will represent 4.5 percent of the Cowboy’s salary cap. If Zeke signs an extension before the 2020 season, his cap hit combined with the rest of Dallas’s spend at the running back position will likely be double the league average.
Profligate spending and contrarianism aren’t proof of incompetence, of course. Elliott on paper seems to be quite good at his job — and his appeal to Dallas might seem warranted. In 2018, Zeke led the league with 1,434 rushing yards on a league-best 304 carries, over 16 percent more than second-place finisher Saquon Barkley (261). If Elliott is worth twice as many wins to a team as a replacement-level running back would be, he’s probably worth twice the money. The problem is that having Zeke on the field isn’t worth even half a win to the Cowboys. Eric Eager at Pro Football Focus estimates that Zeke’s production in 2018 was worth just 0.2 of a win above a replacement player.
We know — and the Cowboys should, too — that rushing (https://thepowerrank.com/2018/09/24/the-surprising-truth-about-passing-and-rushing-in-the-nfl/) is not nearly as important (http://www.footballperspective.com/any-a-rushing-yards-and-winning-percentage/) to winning in the NFL as passing (https://thesportjournal.org/article/is-controlling-the-rushing-or-passing-game-the-key-to-nfl-victories/). But rushing is still a part of the game, and situational running is still critical. A back who excels in high-leverage spots can be quite valuable. It could be the case that Dallas believes it has an advantage in crucial moments with Zeke on the field that helps justify re-signing him.
Examples of situational football are legion, but three in particular stand out as being important in the run game. If the Cowboys are valuing Zeke for the skills that most help the team — and not just for his number of carries over a season — we would expect him to be at or near the top in each of these categories, dominating the plebes drafted rounds after him or those plucked from the NFL scrapyard.




https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ezekiel-elliott-is-not-worth-the-money-he-wants/

NorthCoast
09-03-2019, 10:23 PM
Part II...........:


Running to close out a game

First is the ability to run out the clock when youíre ahead and need to close out a game. Keeping the opposing offense off the field has obvious value when youíre protecting a lead late. In nerd parlance, successful running plays late have a relatively large positive effect on a teamís win probability.
With this in mind, to measure a teamís ability to close out a game, weíll use win probability added (https://www.advancedfootballanalytics.com/index.php/home/stats/stats-explained/win-probability-and-wpa). WPA is a good metric for teasing out rushing value late in the game because it takes our best estimate for what a teamís chance of winning the game is on a particular play (based on the down, distance, yard line, score and time remaining) and then quantifies how much the actual outcome of a play either added or subtracted from that expectation. Teams that are good at rushing to close out games will have positive WPA.
According to ESPNís Stats & Information Group, the Cowboys were seventh in win probability added in 2018 on rushing attempts in the fourth quarter while they were ahead, excluding quarterback kneel-downs. Elliott carried the ball on the majority of those plays and had positive win probability added per play, which is good. But he was still just second on the team in average WPA behind quarterback Dak Prescott ó and it wasnít particularly close. Dakís win probability added per play on 10 attempts was almost five times that of Zekeís average WPA on 45 carries.
When we zoom out and compared Zeke with all running backs across the league, the situation gets bleak. Elliott was 22nd among qualifying backs when running to close out a game, behind the likes of Royce Freeman, Isaiah Crowell and the 35-year-old remnants of Frank Gore.

NorthCoast
09-03-2019, 10:25 PM
Part III.......:


Need to close out a game? Any running back will do.

Win probability added (WPA) per rush for running backs with a minimum of five rushes to close out a game* in the 2018 regular season


RANK
PLAYER
TEAM
RUSHES
WPA


1
Royce Freeman
Denver
12
0.012


2
Isaiah Crowell
New York Jets
7
0.010


3
Nick Chubb
Cleveland
25
0.010


4
Frank Gore
Miami
13
0.007


5
Alvin Kamara
New Orleans
33
0.007


6
Kenyan Drake
Miami
11
0.007


7
James White
New England
25
0.007


8
Melvin Gordon
Los Angeles Chargers
25
0.007


9
Todd Gurley
Los Angeles Rams
48
0.006


10
Ty Montgomery
Baltimore
7
0.006


11
Jaylen Samuels
Pittsburgh
19
0.006


12
Spencer Ware
Kansas City
14
0.006


13
Gus Edwards
Baltimore
32
0.005


14
Justin Jackson
Los Angeles Chargers
15
0.005


15
Mike Davis
Seattle
13
0.005


16
Derrick Henry
Tennessee
23
0.005


17
Adrian Peterson
Washington
47
0.005


18
Jacquizz Rodgers
Tampa Bay
5
0.005


19
Wayne Gallman
New York Giants
12
0.004


20
Jamaal Williams
Green Bay
16
0.004


21
Zach Zenner
Detroit Lions
18
0.004


22
Ezekiel Elliott
Dallas
45
0.003


23
Tarik Cohen
Chicago
9
0.003


24
Kerryon Johnson
Detroit
10
0.002


25
Jordan Wilkins
Indianapolis
12
0.002


* In the fourth quarter while ahead. Kneel-downs not included.
.

NorthCoast
09-03-2019, 10:26 PM
Part IV.......:


SOURCE: ESPN STATS & INFORMATION GROUP
Expanding the sample to Elliottís entire career doesnít help his case either. Over his three years as a starter, Zeke led the league in rushing attempts in closeout situations with 158. But among running backs with 20 such attempts, he ranks just 26th in win probability added per play. For perspective, former teammate Alfred Morris ranks 13th in win probability added per play for the period ó and he was running behind the same offensive line in Dallas for two of those three seasons.
Closing out games is important, but it appears that draft pedigree really isnít necessary to be effective in that role. Those critical runs can be performed by a reasonably priced specialist taken later in the draft or acquired in free agency. And if you need further proof, just feast your eyes on the 2018 win probability added of undrafted free agent Gus Edwards and quietly contemplate the abyss.
Short-yardage running in the red zone

Effective running in the red zone, and especially at the goal line, is particularly valuable because this is the part of the field where passing is most difficult. As teams move downfield and get closer to the end zone, the field compresses and completion percentage drops. While the effect begins a little before the 30-yard line, leaguewide completion percentage drops from 57 percent to 48 percent2 as teams move from their opponentís 20 to the 3-yard line. This decrease in passing effectiveness puts a premium on being able to run successfully. Teams that can consistently move the ball on short-yardage runs in the red zone ó or runs on which a first down or touchdown is no more than 3 yards away3 ó give themselves the opportunity to score touchdowns more often, and they tend to win more games
Last season, the Dallas Cowboys ranked 10th in red zone expected points added (EPA) per play on short-yardage runs in the red zone and 22nd in short-yardage success rate.4 For a team that boasts one of the leagueís better rushing attacks, these are far from elite numbers. For his part, Elliott ranked 16th in EPA per play and 28th in success rate among running backs with at least five short red zone rushes.
Red zone efficiency doesnít require a big name

Expected points added (EPA) per play for running backs with a minimum of five short-yardage attempts* in the red zone during the 2018 season
RANK PLAYER TEAM RUSHES EPA PER PLAY
1 Melvin Gordon Los Angeles Chargers 5 1.35
2 Giovani Bernard Cincinnati 5 1.28
3 Marshawn Lynch Oakland 5 1.06
4 Adrian Peterson Washington 7 0.71
5 Aaron Jones Green Bay 6 0.70
6 Alvin Kamara New Orleans 24 0.69
7 Chris Carson Seattle 18 0.59
8 Corey Clement Philadelphia 5 0.53
9 Lamar Miller Houston 6 0.49
10 Todd Gurley Los Angeles Rams 27 0.49
11 Wendell Smallwood Philadelphia 5 0.49
12 Kapri Bibbs Washington 5 0.45
13 Derrick Henry Tennessee 15 0.44
14 Phillip Lindsay Denver 11 0.43
15 Joe Mixon Cincinnati 13 0.42
16 Ezekiel Elliott Dallas 15 0.30
17 Carlos Hyde Cleveland 10 0.27
18 Kareem Hunt Kansas City 11 0.27
19 Royce Freeman Denver 11 0.27
20 Javorius Allen Baltimore 5 0.26
21 James Conner Pittsburgh 17 0.25
22 Matt Breida San Francisco 49ers 8 0.19
23 Austin Ekeler Los Angeles Chargers 6 0.16
24 Marlon Mack Indianapolis 13 0.08
25 Doug Martin Oakland 12 0.04
* Rushes of 3 yards or less to go. Kneel-downs not included.
SOURCE: ESPN STATS & INFORMATION GROUP
Like we saw with runs to close out the game, Elliott again failed to distinguish himself from his lesser-drafted peers. Despite having nearly 40 pounds on Phillip Lindsay, Elliott was outpaced by the undrafted and diminutive Broncos back in both success rate and EPA per play on short red zone carries in 2018. And while the sample sizes here are small, Zekeís career numbers arenít much better. From 2016 to 2018, Zeke ranks 10th among qualifying5 backs in success rate and 11th in EPA per play

hawaiiansteel
09-04-2019, 03:18 AM
Chargers are looking for a first-rounder plus for Melvin Gordon

Posted by Mike Florio on September 3, 2019

The Chargers donít want to compensate Melvin Gordon like a high-end tailback. But they want to be compensated by another team for Gordon as if heís a high-end tailback.

Per a league source, the Chargers have told at least one other team that the price for Gordon is a first-round pick and a fifth-round pick.

Itís not exactly the kind of price tag that is conducive to getting a deal done, because the new team also will be paying Gordon as part of the trade ó and he wants something in the range of $13 million per year.

If the Chargers value him as a guy who is worth a one and a five, that value should be reflected in their offers to Gordon. Conversely, if the Chargers view Gordon as a guy worth something like $10 million per year, they shouldnít want a first-round pick, and more, from a team that also would have to pay him.

Maybe they donít want a one and a five. Maybe itís an opener. Maybe theyíll eventually come down. Maybe they wonít.

Ultimately, the Chargers can do whatever they want. They hold the cards, and they can sit and wait for Gordon to show up, get credit for the fifth year of his rookie deal, and then let him walk away as a free agent, sign him to a long-term deal, tag him, or tag him and trade him.


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/09/03/chargers-are-looking-for-a-first-rounder-plus-for-melvin-gordon/

Oh wow
09-04-2019, 05:52 AM
Lmao. The Chargers look crazy for demanding so much from a player that can easily be replaced.

The 4 part post on closing out games? That was a lot of useless info. You can take damn near any stat and make an elite guy look overvalued if you zoom in or zoom out.

flippy
09-04-2019, 06:45 AM
When you spend 30% of your cap on Oline, you should be able to plug in any back and get Zeke like performance. It's like giving a RB holes to run thru like Snell had in college.

Oh wow
09-04-2019, 08:46 AM
When you spend 30% of your cap on Oline, you should be able to plug in any back and get Zeke like performance. It's like giving a RB holes to run thru like Snell had in college.

No. This isní true at all but it sounds good to say it.

Fans really take for granted when elite RBís do their thing and make something out of nothing on some of these plays when there OL doesnít execute perfectly.

Northern_Blitz
09-04-2019, 09:24 AM
Part II...........:

I think this type of analysis (looking at success rates) is one of the things the Depot brings up when evaluating Conner. While his TDs and yards are good (lead to pro-bowl along with feel good story and replacing Bell), his success rate wasn't high relative to the league (again according to the Depot).

Northern_Blitz
09-04-2019, 09:27 AM
Lmao. The Chargers look crazy for demanding so much from a player that can easily be replaced.

The 4 part post on closing out games? That was a lot of useless info. You can take damn near any stat and make an elite guy look overvalued if you zoom in or zoom out.

No they don't.

They just look like a team trying to exploit an inefficiency in the market where other teams value RBs more than they do.

They don't want to pay him his free market value, but other teams would (that's why his market value is so high).

That doesn't mean that he shouldn't ask for his market value.

AND that doesn't mean they shouldn't ask for his market value back as compensation in a trade.

The whole issue is that other teams would value him higher than they would.

I think the crazy part is trying to do this trade now (when most teams have already set their cap) as opposed to trying to do it at / before the draft (when more teams would have had cap space).

Oh wow
09-04-2019, 10:01 AM
No they don't.

They just look like a team trying to exploit an inefficiency in the market where other teams value RBs more than they do.

They don't want to pay him his free market value, but other teams would (that's why his market value is so high).

That doesn't mean that he shouldn't ask for his market value.

AND that doesn't mean they shouldn't ask for his market value back as compensation in a trade.

The whole issue is that other teams would value him higher than they would.

I think the crazy part is trying to do this trade now (when most teams have already set their cap) as opposed to trying to do it at / before the draft (when more teams would have had cap space).

It’s definitely a slick business move by the Chargers. Wait until right before the season starts then tell him he can shop for a trade...


and then demand a first and a fifth.

Oviedo
09-04-2019, 10:19 AM
Chargers are looking for a first-rounder plus for Melvin Gordon

Posted by Mike Florio on September 3, 2019

The Chargers donít want to compensate Melvin Gordon like a high-end tailback. But they want to be compensated by another team for Gordon as if heís a high-end tailback.

Per a league source, the Chargers have told at least one other team that the price for Gordon is a first-round pick and a fifth-round pick.

Itís not exactly the kind of price tag that is conducive to getting a deal done, because the new team also will be paying Gordon as part of the trade ó and he wants something in the range of $13 million per year.

If the Chargers value him as a guy who is worth a one and a five, that value should be reflected in their offers to Gordon. Conversely, if the Chargers view Gordon as a guy worth something like $10 million per year, they shouldnít want a first-round pick, and more, from a team that also would have to pay him.

Maybe they donít want a one and a five. Maybe itís an opener. Maybe theyíll eventually come down. Maybe they wonít.

Ultimately, the Chargers can do whatever they want. They hold the cards, and they can sit and wait for Gordon to show up, get credit for the fifth year of his rookie deal, and then let him walk away as a free agent, sign him to a long-term deal, tag him, or tag him and trade him.


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/09/03/chargers-are-looking-for-a-first-rounder-plus-for-melvin-gordon/
Thats the kind of asking price that says he is for sale but we really don't want to sale. Puts all the pressure on Gordon because no one will trade for him at that price and his only option is to sit out and lose money

Steel Maniac
09-04-2019, 10:52 AM
No they don't.

They just look like a team trying to exploit an inefficiency in the market where other teams value RBs more than they do.

They don't want to pay him his free market value, but other teams would (that's why his market value is so high).

That doesn't mean that he shouldn't ask for his market value.

AND that doesn't mean they shouldn't ask for his market value back as compensation in a trade.

The whole issue is that other teams would value him higher than they would.

I think the crazy part is trying to do this trade now (when most teams have already set their cap) as opposed to trying to do it at / before the draft (when more teams would have had cap space).

Right now, we have some teams that will give a bunch of money to a running back. Smart teams who are up on football in the new millennium know not to spend big doe on RB's . Too much Super Bowl evidence; especially over the last decade that says you don't have to pay big money to win Championships.

So the Chargers are going to find one of the stupid teams who are still thinking like it's the 1990's and get over on them. Chargers will stack some draft picks and take another stud rb in next year's draft with one of the draft picks they get from the stupid teams. Probably Tampa Bay.

Oh wow
09-04-2019, 11:27 AM
When was the last time the Chargers were close to sniffing a SB?

Seriously. Acting like the Chargers are one move away is hilarious. They last time they were close to a SB they had Tomlinson.

All these other years without a stud RB and how many SB’s did they sniff?

Rams haven’t sniffed a SN since Faulk. Then heh get Gurley and add a few pieces and look what happens last year?

There is more than one way to make it to a SB fellas.

Oh wow
09-04-2019, 05:09 PM
Zeke gets $90 mill... $50 Guaranteed.

Tried to tell you all the market for RB was going up, not down.

Northern_Blitz
09-04-2019, 05:14 PM
Zeke gets $90 mill... $50 Guaranteed.

Tried to tell you all the market for RB was going up, not down.

That's one big contract.

It will be interesting to see how the guarantees are structured and how many of them fit Bell's definition of "fully guaranteed".

No matter what, business is certainly booming for Zeke!

NorthCoast
09-04-2019, 07:55 PM
After Dallas pays Dak, they will have about 30% of their cap tied up in two players. Let's see how long they can maintain a competitive team with that imbalance.

Steel Maniac
09-04-2019, 10:09 PM
Zeke was an exception because Jerry is sensing his team is close to a super bowl. So he caved. The whole Dallas offense revolves around Zeke. But most contenders offense doesn’t revolve around the runningback.

The normal hold outs will result in what’s going on with Gordon; not Zeke.

hawaiiansteel
09-04-2019, 11:38 PM
#Cowboys extensions:

ē DeMarcus Lawrence: 5-yrs, $105M w/ $65M guaranteed

ē Jaylon Smith: 5-yrs, $64.5M w/ $35.5M guaranteed.

ē Laíel Collins: 5-yrs, $50M w/ $35M guaranteed.

ē Ezekiel Elliott: 6-yrs, $90M w/ $50M guaranteed.

ó> Still waiting: Dak, Amari & Byron Jones.

ó NFL Update (@MySportsUpdate) September 4, 2019

Eich
09-05-2019, 08:47 AM
Zeke gets $90 mill... $50 Guaranteed.

Tried to tell you all the market for RB was going up, not down.

It's the NFL, of course nothing is going down. There's always a stupid team willing to pay the next stupid money. Doesn't mean that the properly run teams in the NFL are going to put that kind of investment into a running back.

I wonder how Bell is feeling about that contract about now? He's the one that wanted to reset the market.

Oviedo
09-05-2019, 08:47 AM
Heard this morning that there are a number of outs in Zeke's contract with roster bonuses. If he screws up and isn't on the roster then lots of this money goes away

Ghost
09-05-2019, 09:09 AM
Florio reports Elliott is receiving $36 million fully guaranteed: 2019 base salary - $752, 137. 2020 option bonus/base salary: $19.8M. Thatís $5 million more than last yearís third overall pick, Saquon Barkley, who received $31 million fully guaranteed. Elliott will go from making just over $750k to making $19 million in the span of one year. His signing bonus was $16.35 million, which isnít notably high for a running back, but still a big-time amount of money.


https://thebiglead.com/2019/09/04/cowboys-ezekiel-elliott-contract-details/

If my math is correct; he's getting a 2,645% raise b/t '19 and '20. That's not too shabby...

Northern_Blitz
09-05-2019, 09:32 AM
If you had to pick one, which player / contract would you rather have?

Zeke

or

Goff (
https://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/story/2019-09-03/rams-sign-quarterback-jared-goff-to-contract-extension)

While QBs are more important than RBs, I think the inflation of QB contracts is crazy.

I think I'd rather have

Zeke at $15/year with $50M than
Goff at $33.5/year with $110M guaranteed.

flippy
09-05-2019, 09:36 AM
If you had to pick one, which player / contract would you rather have?

Zeke

or

Goff (
https://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/story/2019-09-03/rams-sign-quarterback-jared-goff-to-contract-extension)

While QBs are more important than RBs, I think the inflation of QB contracts is crazy.

I think I'd rather have

Zeke at $15/year with $50M than
Goff at $33.5/year with $110M guaranteed.

I'm good with Jimmy Conner's 4 year $3m contract.

Steel Maniac
09-05-2019, 10:16 AM
Heard this morning that there are a number of outs in Zeke's contract with roster bonuses. If he screws up and isn't on the roster then lots of this money goes away

It's the standard funny money contract. Like most are. 103 mil contract but only 50 mil guaranteed says he got to be on the strait and narrow to possibly get at least half of the remaining 53mil

RuthlessBurgher
09-05-2019, 10:25 AM
#Cowboys extensions:

ē DeMarcus Lawrence: 5-yrs, $105M w/ $65M guaranteed

ē Jaylon Smith: 5-yrs, $64.5M w/ $35.5M guaranteed.

ē Laíel Collins: 5-yrs, $50M w/ $35M guaranteed.

ē Ezekiel Elliott: 6-yrs, $90M w/ $50M guaranteed.

ó> Still waiting: Dak, Amari & Byron Jones.

ó NFL Update (@MySportsUpdate) September 4, 2019

Consider also the 8-figure cap hits already on the books for guys like Tyron Smith, Zack Martin, Travis Frederick, and Tyrone Crawford.

Oh wow
09-05-2019, 10:34 AM
If you had to pick one, which player / contract would you rather have?

Zeke

or

Goff (
https://www.latimes.com/sports/rams/story/2019-09-03/rams-sign-quarterback-jared-goff-to-contract-extension)

While QBs are more important than RBs, I think the inflation of QB contracts is crazy.

I think I'd rather have

Zeke at $15/year with $50M than
Goff at $33.5/year with $110M guaranteed.

Good question.

I really think it comes down to the player. Do you pay every QB insane money? Nope.

But the elite QBís should get elite money and I think the same applies to RBís as well.

Itís crazy how average QBís get insane money and people just shrug because itís the QB position. A RB tho? ďItís so easy to plug anyone inĒ which is bull. You can put anyone in at any position but it doesnít mean they will be great at it.

The best players should get the best contracts IMO. How do you give a guy the football 25 times a game yet want to pay him like he is just some guy on your team and not a serious contributor to the teams success?

Northern_Blitz
09-05-2019, 10:45 AM
Good question.

I really think it comes down to the player. Do you pay every QB insane money? Nope.

But the elite QB’s should get elite money and I think the same applies to RB’s as well.

It’s crazy how average QB’s get insane money and people just shrug because it’s the QB position. A RB tho? “It’s so easy to plug anyone in” which is bull. You can put anyone in at any position but it doesn’t mean they will be great at it.

The best players should get the best contracts IMO. How do you give a guy the football 25 times a game yet want to pay him like he is just some guy on your team and not a serious contributor to the teams success?

I think the gold part will sink more teams than paying RBs.

Paying someone like an elite QB doesn't make them an elite QB (ask the Ravens).

RuthlessBurgher
09-05-2019, 10:55 AM
That amount of guaranteed money Goff is getting scares me, but I must admit...I was a guy who liked Carson Wentz much better when they came out in the draft together...but Goff is an underrated QB nationally (even if he did look like a deer in the headlights when facing a Belichick defense in the Super Bowl last year).

Still very young at 24 entering his 4th NFL season. His passing yardage, completion percentage, TD passes, passer rating, etc. have all gone up every year he's played so far. He was a 64.9% passer last season, throwing for 4688 yards with 32 TD to 12 INT for a 101.1 passer rating.

Brandon Cooks and Robert Woods both had over 1200 yards receiving last season (and Cooper Kupp was on pace for an 1100 yard season himself when he got hurt at the midpoint of their schedule last season). Someone has to be able to distribute the ball to these guys, and he seems to do an efficient job at that.

Oh wow
09-05-2019, 11:14 AM
He struggled without Kupp last year. Someone also pointed out how bad he played under pressure bs good defenses last year.

That’s not really surprising. Most QB’s don’t play well vs the best defenses but IMO Geoff hasn’t shown he is worth that much.

But it always amuses me when folks complain about a RB hampering a teams ability to pay other positions.

Eich
09-05-2019, 12:57 PM
It’s crazy how average QB’s get insane money and people just shrug because it’s the QB position. A RB tho? “It’s so easy to plug anyone in” which is bull. You can put anyone in at any position but it doesn’t mean they will be great at it.

I agree. But, I think even above-average QB's are much more rare than RB's. So, teams feel like they have to take a chance on paying crazy money to get (or keep) one, in hopes that it works out. Kirk Cousins is a good example.

Steel Maniac
09-05-2019, 01:21 PM
kareem hunt was a third round pick; Phillip Lindsey was an undrafted free agent. Owners understand that if you put a good O-line together, average talent at the RB position can do well big time. That might hurt a certain poster's feelings but it's the truth.

Zeke was a rare situation where Jerry caved because he feels they can make the Super Bowl this year (but they won't).

Oh wow
09-05-2019, 05:01 PM
Kareem Hunt was going to get paid big money on his next contract if he stayed oh of trouble. He might still get a huge contract if he is able to rebound and keep his nose clean.

No one is saying you can’t find good value in the 2nd 4th or 6th round. The point is once you outplay your contract you should get compensated instead of gambling on he next draft pick and hoping it pans out.

Not sure why Jones is the exception when all 3 of the top RB’s the last few years were offered huge contracts.

Gurley
Bell
Zeke

They all got paid.

It’s not rare. It’s exactly what I predicted when discussing the RB market. I knew it was going up.

Captain Lemming
09-05-2019, 07:37 PM
Kareem Hunt was going to get paid big money on his next contract if he stayed oh of trouble. He might still get a huge contract if he is able to rebound and keep his nose clean.

No one is saying you can’t find good value in the 2nd 4th or 6th round. The point is once you outplay your contract you should get compensated instead of gambling on he next draft pick and hoping it pans out.

Not sure why Jones is the exception when all 3 of the top RB’s the last few years were offered huge contracts.

Gurley
Bell
Zeke

They all got paid.

It’s not rare. It’s exactly what I predicted when discussing the RB market. I knew it was going up.

My argument was never that they won't get paid. My argument is whether it is smart.

Northern_Blitz
09-05-2019, 07:47 PM
My argument was never that they won't get paid. My argument is whether it is smart.

And that's a pretty big difference.

I think it's going to be the same with even QBs sooner rather than later. I think the ever more O friendly rules will raise many QBs up. There will be a few elites and then pretty similar results. If that's the case, it will be better to keep fishing for elites than give huge contracts to average guys.

NorthCoast
09-05-2019, 07:53 PM
My argument was never that they won't get paid. My argument is whether it is smart.

To your point Captain, top RBs are getting paid but to what end? Dallas had 50 yds rushing in their loss in the divisional round last season. Bell was a no show for two post-seasons for PIT. Gurley was a complete ghost in the Rams last playoff round.

Oh wow
09-05-2019, 08:55 PM
To your point Captain, top RBs are getting paid but to what end? Dallas had 50 yds rushing in their loss in the divisional round last season. Bell was a no show for two post-seasons for PIT. Gurley was a complete ghost in the Rams last playoff round.

Thats cherry picking. You can’t use the bad and ignore the good.

The game where Zeke had 50 yards... Gurley had 130 total yards.

Bell had injuries but he also broke the playoff record for rushing yards and pretty much carried us past KC.

A season is 16 games and each one is crucial to get you to them playoffs. If a guy has elite numbers and forces opponents to change their game plan to stop them it shows their worth.

Captain Lemming
09-06-2019, 02:26 AM
Thats cherry picking. You can¬’t use the bad and ignore the good.

The game where Zeke had 50 yards... Gurley had 130 total yards.

Cherry picking?
You mean the same game when Gurleys backup, CJ Anderson outgained AND outscored Gurley?
Just as the Rams DID NOT MISS A BEAT the entire time CJ Anderson started as his average production was higher than Gurley?

Anderson was only a RAM for 5 games (acquired from the Panthers BENCH when Gurley got hurt. The team was undefeated in the 4 games he lead the Rams in carries. The ONLY loss Anderson experienced as a Ram was the ONLY game that Gurley had more carries than he did- the SB.


Bell had injuries but he also broke the playoff record for rushing yards and pretty much carried us past KC.

A season is 16 games and each one is crucial to get you to them playoffs. If a guy has elite numbers and forces opponents to change their game plan to stop them it shows their worth.

Or you can ACTUALLY WIN SBs by saving money on a position that is SO EASILY REPLACED that the BEST BACK IN THE LEAGUE gets replaced and the team does not miss a beat. :)

1. Rookie Michel
2. Jay Ajayi
3. L. Blount
4. CJ (one career 1000 year season) Anderson

The last 4 runningbacks to lead the SB winner in rushing.

Oh wow
09-06-2019, 07:48 AM
Cherry picking?
You mean the same game when Gurleys backup, CJ Anderson outgained AND outscored Gurley?
Just as the Rams DID NOT MISS A BEAT the entire time CJ Anderson started as his average production was higher than Gurley?

Anderson was only a RAM for 5 games (acquired from the Panthers BENCH when Gurley got hurt. The team was undefeated in the 4 games he lead the Rams in carries. The ONLY loss Anderson experienced as a Ram was the ONLY game that Gurley had more carries than he did- the SB.



Or you can ACTUALLY WIN SBs by saving money on a position that is SO EASILY REPLACED that the BEST BACK IN THE LEAGUE gets replaced and the team does not miss a beat. :)

1. Rookie Michel
2. Jay Ajayi
3. L. Blount
4. CJ (one career 1000 year season) Anderson

The last 4 runningbacks to lead the SB winner in rushing.
Cherry. Picking!

Gurley has a total of 3,800 yards and 40 TD’s the last 2 years.

and you want to use 2 or 3 games? Lmao.

End of discussion.

Steel Maniac
09-06-2019, 10:47 AM
Cherry picking?
You mean the same game when Gurleys backup, CJ Anderson outgained AND outscored Gurley?
Just as the Rams DID NOT MISS A BEAT the entire time CJ Anderson started as his average production was higher than Gurley?

Anderson was only a RAM for 5 games (acquired from the Panthers BENCH when Gurley got hurt. The team was undefeated in the 4 games he lead the Rams in carries. The ONLY loss Anderson experienced as a Ram was the ONLY game that Gurley had more carries than he did- the SB.



Or you can ACTUALLY WIN SBs by saving money on a position that is SO EASILY REPLACED that the BEST BACK IN THE LEAGUE gets replaced and the team does not miss a beat. :)

1. Rookie Michel
2. Jay Ajayi
3. L. Blount
4. CJ (one career 1000 year season) Anderson

The last 4 runningbacks to lead the SB winner in rushing.

Captain, Ow wow (Feltdizz) thinks like were in the 1985-90. He refuses to acknowledge the facts of how teams are winning championships NOW. You've already shown him all the recent Super Bowl history and he doesn't want to acknowledge it.

Oh wow
09-06-2019, 11:29 AM
Same guy who said the market for RB wasn’t going up...

Who said Kirk Cousins would lead the Vikings to a SB...

Who said Dobbs was a running QB in college...

has the nerve to use my name while running scared from my post.

A Gurley led Rams team just made the SB last year. You have no idea what you are talking about but that’s why you keep half the board on ignore.

and this thread is about player contracts.

Gurley
Bell
Zeke

They all got offers that were way above what anyone on here predicted they would get.

dot dot dot boom

NorthCoast
09-06-2019, 06:51 PM
Same guy who said the market for RB wasn’t going up...

Who said Kirk Cousins would lead the Vikings to a SB...

Who said Dobbs was a running QB in college...

has the nerve to use my name while running scared from my post.

A Gurley led Rams team just made the SB last year. You have no idea what you are talking about but that’s why you keep half the board on ignore.

and this thread is about player contracts.

Gurley
Bell
Zeke

They all got offers that were way above what anyone on here predicted they would get.

dot dot dot boom

Dizz, Notice anything about the players you listed? All with teams that have a QB on a rookie deal. (although Dallas appears to be going to break the bank on Dak soon).

Steel Maniac
09-07-2019, 01:21 AM
Dizz, Notice anything about the players you listed? All with teams that have a QB on a rookie deal. (although Dallas appears to be going to break the bank on Dak soon).

Let him rant; he doesn’t understand the economics or concept of a salary cap.
4 new running backs come out next year.

hawaiiansteel
09-07-2019, 01:58 AM
and this thread is about player contracts.

Gurley
Bell
Zeke

They all got offers that were way above what anyone on here predicted they would get.


I actually bet a poster on another board that Bell would receive a contract above $12 million/year.

and Gurley's and Zeke's contracts didn't surprise me at all...

Oh wow
09-07-2019, 07:28 AM
Dizz, Notice anything about the players you listed? All with teams that have a QB on a rookie deal. (although Dallas appears to be going to break the bank on Dak soon).

They just paid Goeff and they are about to pay Dak.

Even Bell was offered big money by Colbert although it wasn’t guaranteed the way he wanted...

Oh wow
09-07-2019, 07:30 AM
Let him rant; he doesn’t understand the economics or concept of a salary cap.
4 new running backs come out next year.


Lmao. Every position has a ton of players coming out every year.

Doesn’t matter. Known quantities will always win out in professional sports. The CBA is structured to pay players handsomely on their second contract.