Hargrave > Hampton?

[NorthCoast]

bored with this offseason quiet :p so thought I would do some stat snooping. Check out Hargrave's per game stats vs Hampton in the first 3 yrs. Hargrave is no slouch and I am kinda baffled on why he doesn't get on the field more often:







Tackles


Fumbles
Def Interceptions


Rk
Player
From
To
Solo
Ast
Sk
FF
FR
Yds
TD
Int
Yds
TD


1
Casey Hampton (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HampCa00.htm)
2001
2003
1.2
0.9
0.1
0.0
0.0
0.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


2
Javon Hargrave (https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HargJa00.htm)
2016
2018
1.5
0.8
0.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0




https://www.pro-football-reference.com/

[pittpete]

Because we play a lot of sub packages with 2 DL
Heyward/Tuitt and Hargrave/Olaulau
Look at snaps per game the beginning of the 2018 season.
It will make your head spin...
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2018-snap-counts.htm

[hawaiiansteel]

Javon Hargrave Expecting Expanded DL Rotation This Season

By Matthew Marczi
Posted on June 20, 2019

It seems as though we hear every year that the Pittsburgh Steelers are interested in, that they want to try, using a greater amount of rotation along their defensive line. We don’t always see those results. Barring injury, it’s still Cameron Heyward and Stephon Tuitt, for the most part, burning the proverbial midnight oil.

Javon Hargrave has been the exception, as the fourth-year defensive tackle has seen his role expand in the nickel pass-rush over the course of the past two seasons, particularly last year. The man in the middle, who is due for a contract extension this summer, expressed his belief about an expanded or refined rotation this year.

“I’m sure that’s something they’re looking at, just seeing rotations, seeing who would be good with each other”, he told Jacob Klinger of PennLive over the course of the spring workouts in the past month. “Just seeing how they can get ready for the games”.

Hargrave’s increased opportunities in the nickel front did produce results, as he more than doubled his career sack production, posting six and a half sacks. Obviously, the fact that he was able to have that production will only increase the coaching staff’s desire to get him on the field.

In the 2019 NFL Draft, the Steelers also added another pass-rushing defensive lineman in sixth-round pick Isaiah Buggs out of Alabama. He had a career year getting after the quarterback in expanded playing time in 2018 due to injury.

Of course, before Buggs can see playing time, he has to make the 53-man roster first, and while there is an opening vacated by L.T. Walton, who was not re-signed, he is not guaranteed to get the job. Others such as Lavon Hooks, Casey Sayles, and Greg Gilmore, all of whom were in the 90-man roster last summer, will be competing with him for that spot.

The Steelers have been lagging behind when it comes to using a multitude of players along their defensive line. While that is more common in teams with 4-3 fronts, even 3-4 teams do it, and Pittsburgh has done it more proficiently in the past, but they have arguably lacked the personnel more recently.

With pressure from the front line more important in today’s NFL than it has ever been before, however, one wonders how much they can get away with riding their two highly-compensated stars up front without getting reinforcements behind them.

“I think that’s everywhere now, especially since the game comes with a lot of passing”, Hargrave said of seeing teams get that kind of playing time up and down their line. “So you need fresh bodies in there to rush the passer a lot. So I think that’s kind of where it’s going to right now”.


https://steelersdepot.com/2019/06/javon-hargrave-expecting-expanded-dl-rotation-this-season/

[NorthCoast]

Because we play a lot of sub packages with 2 DL
Heyward/Tuitt and Hargrave/Olaulau
Look at snaps per game the beginning of the 2018 season.
It will make your head spin...
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/2018-snap-counts.htm

Wow!
Another victim of sub packages.
At some point you have to wonder whether these packages work against a team by exposing trends and players.

[flippy]

I love Hargrave but Hampton was more important to the D imho. Both are different players and hard to compare and they were asked to play differently.

The whole D line plays differently and I’m not sure how valuable Hampton would be today.

Where Casey excelled was collapsing the pocket. He moved guys backward and really gave QBs no where to step up. A guy like Bud would love to have someone like Casey in the middle so when he runs 10 yards behind the LOS, that’s about where a QB would be trapped with Casey in the middle.

Hargrave is impressively quick but Casey was quick off the ball and never really had the opportunity to go after a QB so it’s a really hard comparison.

[Buzz]

I love Hargrave but Hampton was more important to the D imho. Both are different players and hard to compare and they were asked to play differently.

The whole D line plays differently and I’m not sure how valuable Hampton would be today.

Where Casey excelled was collapsing the pocket. He moved guys backward and really gave QBs no where to step up. A guy like Bud would love to have someone like Casey in the middle so when he runs 10 yards behind the LOS, that’s about where a QB would be trapped with Casey in the middle.

Hargrave is impressively quick but Casey was quick off the ball and never really had the opportunity to go after a QB so it’s a really hard comparison.

This. Like comparing apples to oranges. Glad we had both of them, and hope Hargrave can be utilized to his full potential in this D.

[Steel Maniac]

I don’t think you can compare them. One is a penetrator the other a space eater that’s purpose is to occupy blockers.

[Northern_Blitz]

I love Hargrave but Hampton was more important to the D imho. Both are different players and hard to compare and they were asked to play differently.

The whole D line plays differently and I’m not sure how valuable Hampton would be today.

Where Casey excelled was collapsing the pocket. He moved guys backward and really gave QBs no where to step up. A guy like Bud would love to have someone like Casey in the middle so when he runs 10 yards behind the LOS, that’s about where a QB would be trapped with Casey in the middle.

Hargrave is impressively quick but Casey was quick off the ball and never really had the opportunity to go after a QB so it’s a really hard comparison.

This (10 chars) :tt2

[RuthlessBurgher]

This. Like comparing apples to oranges. Glad we had both of them, and hope Hargrave can be utilized to his full potential in this D.

Kinda like trying to compare Jack Ham to Joey Porter. Yeah, both Ham and Porter were OLB just like Hargrave and Hampton were both NT, but their responsibilities and what coaches asked them to do was so different that it's difficult to compare at all.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Kinda wish we had a Hampton right now... The LBs would just kill other teams with a guy who actually commanded a double-team - especially now with Bush in the fold.

Personally think that's the starting point as to why the defense isn't the same as it was with Casey manning the middle... it's so much easier to "free" a player when you have 2 free, by default (i.e., a double-team takes one and the QB aint blocking for himself).

["BuzzNuter"]

Dude there is no comparison between Hampton and Hargrave. Hampton was the best space occupier in the NFL during his time. He made our run defense.If you want to measure how effective Hampton was compare the statistics of Farrior and Foote versus any duo that came after Hampton retired. Hampton always occupied two lineman.

[hawaiiansteel]

Dude there is no comparison between Hampton and Hargrave. Hampton was the best space occupier in the NFL during his time. He made our run defense.If you want to measure how effective Hampton was compare the statistics of Farrior and Foote versus any duo that came after Hampton retired. Hampton always occupied two lineman.

:Agree

that was my first thought when I saw this thread title.

[Captain Lemming]

Dude there is no comparison between Hampton and Hargrave. Hampton was the best space occupier in the NFL during his time. He made our run defense.If you want to measure how effective Hampton was compare the statistics of Farrior and Foote versus any duo that came after Hampton retired. Hampton always occupied two lineman.

Not a fair comp. You can not compare the success of different linebackers.

What happened when Hoke replaced Casey and was the majority starter, 10 games?
Same linebackers. THAT is a true comparison.

-Undefeated in the 10 games Casey missed
-Number one in rush defense
-Number one in total defense
-Number one in scoring defense

AND.....Farriors ONLY All Pro season.

In the 6 games with Casey.
-Had our only loss of the regular season
-The two games with the most rush yards allowed

It is an undeniable fact that one of the best stretch of run defenses of Casey’s career was in 2004 when Casey was out with injury.

[skyhawk]

Rediculous. Regardless of their "roles" mentioning Hargrave in the same league as Hampton is just disingenuous and a non starter for me. I haven't missed one game between the two of them! Just the fact that Casey was the throttle to one of the best run defenses of all time puts the case to rest immediately.

[Captain Lemming]

Rediculous. Regardless of their "roles" mentioning Hargrave in the same league as Hampton is just disingenuous and a non starter for me. I haven't missed one game between the two of them! Just the fact that Casey was the throttle to one of the best run defenses of all time puts the case to rest immediately.

That team had a great run defense with or without Casey.
Did not miss a beat when he was out.

We lost Farrior, Casey, Harrison, and A. Smith all around the same time.
THAT is why the run defense declined.

[Oh wow]

Not a fair comp. You can not compare the success of different linebackers.

What happened when Hoke replaced Casey and was the majority starter, 10 games?
Same linebackers. THAT is a true comparison.

-Undefeated in the 10 games Casey missed
-Number one in rush defense
-Number one in total defense
-Number one in scoring defense

AND.....Farriors ONLY All Pro season.

In the 6 games with Casey.
-Had our only loss of the regular season
-The two games with the most rush yards allowed

It is an undeniable fact that the best stretch of run defense of Casey’s career was in 2004 when Casey was out with injury.

Wasn’t the only loss of the 2004 season with Maddox at QB?

[Captain Lemming]

Wasn’t the only loss of the 2004 season with Maddox at QB?

Yes, but Tommy had nothing to do with the 172 rushing yards and 30 points (both season high numbers) we gave up that day. :)

BTW, we have NEVER given up 172 rushing yards in a Hoke start.

My point is not that Hoke is better, just that the significance of fat Casey's being the indispensable key to the success of that defense is silly.

Hoke replaced him with zero ill effects. As he did EVERY GAME HE STARTED in his career.

Again, people act like Casey is why the linebackers had success.
Yet the ONE TIME Farrior was all pro was the MOST GAMES CASEY MISSED in Farriors Steeler career.

[Oh wow]

Yes, but Tommy had nothing to do with the 172 rushing yards and 30 points (both season high numbers) we gave up that day. :)

BTW, we have NEVER given up 172 rushing yards in a Hoke start.

My point is not that Hoke is better, just that the significance of fat Casey's being the indispensable key to the success of that defense is silly.

Hoke replaced him AS A ROOKIE with zero ill effects. As he did EVERY GAME HE STARTED in his career.

Again, people act like Casey is why the linebackers had success.
Yet the ONE TIME Farrior was all pro was the MOST GAMES CASEY MISSED in Farriors Steeler career.

That’s still a silly argument.

We have no idea who was on the field for those big plays vs Baltimore.

We also don’t know if someone missed their assignment or a tackle on those plays or if our D was trying to be too cute early in the season.

My point is no one needs to ever say Casey’s hamptipn wasn’t what he was because of a few starts without him that also went well.

This is like saying the Center who replaced Pouncey was just as good because of our TD stats.

That’s silly talk.

[Captain Lemming]

That’s still a silly argument.

We have no idea who was on the field for those big plays vs Baltimore.

We also don’t know if someone missed their assignment or a tackle on those plays or if our D was trying to be too cute early in the season.

My point is no one needs to ever say Casey’s hamptipn wasn’t what he was because of a few starts without him that also went well.

This is like saying the Center who replaced Pouncey was just as good because of our TD stats.

That’s silly talk.

17-1 in his career as a starter ain't "a few games" Dizz.

Hokes only loss?
We gave up 98 TOTAL YARDS to the Raiders whose only touchdowns were not one but TWO pick sixes by Ben.

What is silly is crediting a NT for a run defense that was just as stout without him. People act like the only difference between a team LOADED with elite linebackers and this one with guys like Vince Williams is that Casey was such a beast freeing up everyone.

Fact is when he WASNT THERE we never missed a beat as long as our linebackers were elite.

[Oh wow]

Yes. It’s silly to credit one person for the bulk of good or bad when it comes to football. Way too many variables involved.

[STH70]

17-1 in his career as a starter ain't "a few games" Dizz.

Hokes only loss?
We gave up 98 TOTAL YARDS to the Raiders whose only touchdowns were not one but TWO pick sixes by Ben.

What is silly is crediting a NT for a run defense that was just as stout without him. People act like the only difference between a team LOADED with elite linebackers and this one with guys like Vince Williams is that Casey was such a beast freeing up everyone.

Fact is when he WASNT THERE we never missed a beat as long as our linebackers were elite.
I agree.
Casey was no doubt a great player. But he was also surrounded by players like A. Smith, Kimo, Farrior, Foote, Porter, Haggans and Harrison. And let’s not forget that Polamalu also dropped down into the box and played the run like a LB. That defensive front didn’t need Casey to be great against the run.

[NorthCoast]

My intent with the post wasn't to downgrade Hampton's accomplishments but to point out Hargrave has been playing some very good ball.

But I have to say Captain has come up with some very interesting points that suggest Hampton wasn't an irreplaceable player.

[hawaiiansteel]

My intent with the post wasn't to downgrade Hampton's accomplishments but to point out Hargrave has been playing some very good ball.

But I have to say Captain has come up with some very interesting points that suggest Hampton wasn't an irreplaceable player.

maybe Big Snack wasn't irreplaceable.

but he was still better than Hargrave...

[Oh wow]

maybe Big Snack wasn't irreplaceable.

but he was still better than Hargrave...

Everyone is replaceable.

but I agree, Hampton was better than Hargrave.

[STH70]

I think they’re 2 different types of players asked to do different things.
Not saying Hargrave is the better player, but.
Casey is the better pure Nose Tackle.
Hargrave can play NT, DT and DE. Is also the better pass rusher.
Hampton – 9 Sacks in his entire 12 year career.
Hargrave – 10.5 Sacks in his first 3 seasons.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

:Agree

that was my first thought when I saw this thread title.
I've been really annoyed that they (and most of the fans) wanted a NT who will get 2 extra sacks a year, but, will be not nearly as effective on run downs. Just seems like a HORRIBLE trade off.

The question always was, "Why would i want a 2-down player?"
A. Isn't that like having a 3rd CB or something equally critical. He won't play every down, but, the nickel CB is very critical. As is the run-stuffing NT. You need ALL the chess pieces.
B. My legit answer is, "because he gets us to 3rd and long if they opt to run. And, he helps us get the ball back when the other team is trying to stuff it down our throats to close the game... and 3rd and inches... and <short> and goal... and...... and... "

[RuthlessBurgher]

With a run-stuffing NT occupying multiple blockers...
Run for a modest 2 yard gain on 1st down
Run for a modest 1 yard gain on 2nd down
Results in a 3rd and 7 situation for the offense

With a penetrating NT shooting through gaps...
Chooses wrong gap for a 7 yard gain on 1st down
Chooses right gap for a 4 yard loss on 2nd down
Results in a 3rd and 7 situation for the offense

Apples...oranges...

[Northern_Blitz]

With a run-stuffing NT occupying multiple blockers...
Run for a modest 2 yard gain on 1st down
Run for a modest 1 yard gain on 2nd down
Results in a 3rd and 7 situation for the offense

With a penetrating NT shooting through gaps...
Chooses wrong gap for a 7 yard gain on 1st down
Chooses right gap for a 4 yard loss on 2nd down
Results in a 3rd and 7 situation for the offense

Apples...oranges...
I think Hampton > Hargrave, but that's probably because Casey was among the best in his time at what he did.

Hargrave is good and maybe better suited to today's NFL than Casey would be.

I think the Big Snack type NT might have more trouble in today's NFL.

More passing, more no huddle, higher pace. I don't know if that would really fit Hampton's skill set.

[STH70]

If most NFL teams were actually running on 1st and 2nd down the NT would be a 2 down player.
If your run-stuffing NT was forcing 3rd and 7 most of the time that NT would be worth it.
If 67% or more of the offensive plays were running plays that dominant pure NT would make more sense. But that’s not the case in today’s NFL
Most NFL teams are now throwing the ball over 60% of the time. It’s a passing league and the rules are changed to support that.
So it makes more sense to get DL that can play some NT but also be able to rush the passer. Not ones that are strictly run-stuffing NTs.
NTs are more like 1-1.5 down players and the only time you can really predict the run is 3rd or 4th and short. And that’s no guarantee.
Just my opinion.

[ikestops85]

maybe Big Snack wasn't irreplaceable.

but he was still better than Hargrave...

or maybe Hoke was a lot better than people give him credit for. :idea:

[hawaiiansteel]

or maybe Hoke was a lot better than people give him credit for. :idea:

I have always believed that Chris Hoke was very underrated...

[Oh wow]

I think there should always be room for a traditional NT in a 3-4 defense.

I don’t care if he only plays 2 downs. It’s worth it. Push the pocket on pass plays on early downs and eat up space on running plays.

So what if he isn’t a 3 down guy.

[Captain Lemming]

maybe Big Snack wasn't irreplaceable.

but he was still better than Hargrave...

In today's NFL? Nope.
You telling me Hargrave could not do what HOKE did?

If so AND he is more athletic than either, how would his playing in that defense hurt that team?

Casey gets his rep from what everybody else did. But they did the same thing without him.

Give Hargrave those linebackers PLUS Troy and Clark and and tell me our run D suffers because Hargrave can't do what a guy who's biggest accolade is 2nd team all "Mountain West" Hoke did?

[Captain Lemming]

I have always believed that Chris Hoke was very underrated...

Yes, what they all say when I bring this up.
You are think Hoke can turn Vince W. into James Farrior?

[hawaiiansteel]

You are think Hoke can turn Vince W. into James Farrior?

I don't think so, Hoke is now 43 years old ;)

[STH70]

Casey Hampton was very good at what he did but I remember him showing up at training camp way overweight and completely out of shape. Tomlin put him on the PUP list and forced him to lose weight before he could even begin any football practices.
During the season I remember his slow jog off the field after 5 or 6 straight plays.
I couldn’t imagine Casey in today’s NFL, getting caught in a no-huddle drive and not able to get off the field. It would be like playing a 10 man defense.

[Oh wow]

Casey Hampton was very good at what he did but I remember him showing up at training camp way overweight and completely out of shape. Tomlin put him on the PUP list and forced him to lose weight before he could even begin any football practices.
During the season I remember his slow jog off the field after 5 or 6 straight plays.
I couldn’t imagine Casey in today’s NFL, getting caught in a no-huddle drive and not able to get off the field. It would be like playing a 10 man defense.

Hmmm...

That’s not really a good reason. Most DL aren’t going to be effective in a no huddle after a few plays. That’s why teams go no huddle.

A player either gets “hurt” or you wait until an incompletion to substitute.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Casey Hampton was very good at what he did but I remember him showing up at training camp way overweight and completely out of shape. Tomlin put him on the PUP list and forced him to lose weight before he could even begin any football practices.
During the season I remember his slow jog off the field after 5 or 6 straight plays.
I couldn’t imagine Casey in today’s NFL, getting caught in a no-huddle drive and not able to get off the field. It would be like playing a 10 man defense.

Baltimore is going through something similar now with their current NT Michael Pierce. He was apparently too fat to safely make it through minicamp (which are essentially just glorified walkthroughs in shells) never mind full contact training camp practices.

[STH70]

Hmmm...

That’s not really a good reason. Most DL aren’t going to be effective in a no huddle after a few plays. That’s why teams go no huddle.

A player either gets “hurt” or you wait until an incompletion to substitute.
Right! That's why I would MUCH rather have Hargrave on the field than Casey if the offense goes no huddle.
After a few plays without stoppage Big Snack becomes a huge liability.

[Oh wow]

Right! That's why I would MUCH rather have Hargrave on the field than Casey if the offense goes no huddle.
After a few plays without stoppage Big Snack becomes a huge liability.

But so does Hargrave, Heyward and Tuitt.

How many sacks and pressures do you see when a team goes no huddle and completes a few passes?

You don’t. Those guys are just as ineffective.

If a team goes no huddle it’s primarily up to the DB’s to stop the offense.

[NorthCoast]

Did some checking stats in Hampton era vs no-Hampton. Pretty clear the defensive rankings were better in the Hampton era. Worst rush ranking was something like 13th. ..though it's also clear the supporting cast behind the DL was superior to today. So team ranks are even more suspect than individual stats.
Steelers had one very dismal defensive year recently.

[STH70]

But so does Hargrave, Heyward and Tuitt.

How many sacks and pressures do you see when a team goes no huddle and completes a few passes?

You don’t. Those guys are just as ineffective.

If a team goes no huddle it’s primarily up to the DB’s to stop the offense.
Yes, defenses still get sacks while the offense is in no-huddle. Maybe not as many, but sacks do occur.
So, the often overweight, out of shape, gap plugging, run stuffing Big Snack is just as effective as Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt against the no huddle offense. I strongly disagree.
No-huddle DOES NOT mean pass on every play. Hampton would be useless either way after 4 or 5 non-stop plays.
In the days before no-huddle became popular and NFL teams ran the ball more than 60% instead of throwing more than 60% of the time, a NT like Casey that played at 6’1”, 350 lbs. (listed at 325 lbs.) was a great asset, not so much in today’s NFL.

[Oh wow]

Yes, defenses still get sacks while the offense is in no-huddle. Maybe not as many, but sacks do occur.
So, the often overweight, out of shape, gap plugging, run stuffing Big Snack is just as effective as Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt against the no huddle offense. I strongly disagree.
No-huddle DOES NOT mean pass on every play. Hampton would be useless either way after 4 or 5 non-stop plays.
In the days before no-huddle became popular and NFL teams ran the ball more than 60% instead of throwing more than 60% of the time, a NT like Casey that played at 6’1”, 350 lbs. (listed at 325 lbs.) was a great asset, not so much in today’s NFL.

Dude, all defensive lineman are gasping for air after 4 to 5 no huddle plays.

How many times did we watch Brady go untouched and our DL her no pressure. Even when they didn’t go no huddle?

Atlanta was killing the Pats in the SB in the first half but once they went no huddle/uptempo the front 4 were useless all second half.

I don’t think size has much to do with sucking wind when it comes to DL in the no huddle.

[STH70]

Dude, all defensive lineman are gasping for air after 4 to 5 no huddle plays.

How many times did we watch Brady go untouched and our DL her no pressure. Even when they didn’t go no huddle?

Atlanta was killing the Pats in the SB in the first half but once they went no huddle/uptempo the front 4 were useless all second half.

I don’t think size has much to do with sucking wind when it comes to DL in the no huddle.

There’s a huge difference between sucking wind and exhaustion.
You’re trying to compare a player that’s strictly a NT, much shorter and heavier than the others that also play DT and DE. Ever hear of Casey playing DE?
You’re trying to tell us that a guy that can’t pass the run test, playing at 6’1”, 350 lbs. has the same stamina as DEs that are 6’5”, 288 lbs. and 6’7” 313?
Come on Dude, that isn’t making much sense.
There is no way Casey would have the stamina or effectiveness of Heyward, Hargrave or Tuitt in a no-huddle.

[Oh wow]

There’s a huge difference between sucking wind and exhaustion.
You’re trying to compare a player that’s strictly a NT, much shorter and heavier than the others that also play DT and DE. Ever hear of Casey playing DE?
You’re trying to tell us that a guy that can’t pass the run test, playing at 6’1”, 350 lbs. has the same stamina as DEs that are 6’5”, 288 lbs. and 6’7” 313?
Come on Dude, that isn’t making much sense.
There is no way Casey would have the stamina or effectiveness of Heyward, Hargrave or Tuitt in a no-huddle.

No, I’m not saying a NT and a DE has the same stamina.

Of course a NT will have to come off the field if a team goes no huddle.

What I’m saying is the no huddle isn’t a good argument against a NT Casey’s size.

Any team that runs 5 straight no huddle plays won’t have to worry about the DL unless the DB’s are blanketing WR’s and it’s a coverage sack.

I think you aren’t being realistic about how winded DL are when a team runs successful no huddle plays.

Unless it’s the first drive of the game... I don’t think Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt are getting to the QB who runs a no huddle after 5 plays.

Also remember Casey’s job isn’t to get upfield. Just hold his ground and push the pocket a bit.

How effective was the no huddle all those years with Casey?

and why do you refer to Casey as the often overweight? He came into camp overweight one year and I honestly think it was Tomlin making him an example to establish his presence early in his HC career.

[STH70]

No, I’m not saying a NT and a DE has the same stamina.

Of course a NT will have to come off the field if a team goes no huddle.

What I’m saying is the no huddle isn’t a good argument against a NT Casey’s size.

Any team that runs 5 straight no huddle plays won’t have to worry about the DL unless the DB’s are blanketing WR’s and it’s a coverage sack.

I think you aren’t being realistic about how winded DL are when a team runs successful no huddle plays.

Unless it’s the first drive of the game... I don’t think Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt are getting to the QB who runs a no huddle after 5 plays.

Also remember Casey’s job isn’t to get upfield. Just hold his ground and push the pocket a bit.

How effective was the no huddle all those years with Casey?

and why do you refer to Casey as the often overweight? He came into camp overweight one year and I honestly think it was Tomlin making him an example to establish his presence early in his HC career.

You’re not getting it. There are many reasons a Casey Hampton type NT is not a priority.
Playing against the no-huddle is an example and just a small part of the equation.
Teams no longer run the ball 60% of the time. So, why make a run-stuffing only NT a priority?
Teams throw the ball over 60% of the time. A 3-4 NT adds no value to the pass rush.
Our defense values position flexibility (Hargrave = NT, DT, DE) Casey is a 3-4 NT ONLY.
The entire defense is built around SPEED, of which Casey has none.
And the list goes on and on.

And BTW, Casey reported to camp overweight more than once and failed the run test under both Tomlin and Cowher.

[Oh wow]

You’re not getting it. There are many reasons a Casey Hampton type NT is not a priority.
Playing against the no-huddle is an example and just a small part of the equation.
Teams no longer run the ball 60% of the time. So, why make a run-stuffing only NT a priority?
Teams throw the ball over 60% of the time. A 3-4 NT adds no value to the pass rush.
Our defense values position flexibility (Hargrave = NT, DT, DE) Casey is a 3-4 NT ONLY.
The entire defense is built around SPEED, of which Casey has none.
And the list goes on and on.

And BTW, Casey reported to camp overweight more than once and failed the run test under both Tomlin and Cowher.

We shall see if our D is better without a traditional NT. This far its been pretty average and down right terrible some years at generating pressure and stopping the run.

A noseplug NT requires a double team, he doesn’t get sacks, he pushes the pocket and makes it hard for QB’s to step up in the pocket and also makes it easier for LB’s to blitz up the middle.

We also watched NE run down teams throats when they were geared up to stop the pass.

It’s not about making it a priority. It’s about having options and a noseplug NT doesn’t kill our pockets or destroy our scheme.

We will have to disagree on this one. Until I see our defense dominate the trenches I won’t call our decision to go with speed a success. If anything, it’s been a failure thus far.

[STH70]

We shall see if our D is better without a traditional NT. This far its been pretty average and down right terrible some years at generating pressure and stopping the run.

A noseplug NT requires a double team, he doesn’t get sacks, he pushes the pocket and makes it hard for QB’s to step up in the pocket and also makes it easier for LB’s to blitz up the middle.

We also watched NE run down teams throats when they were geared up to stop the pass.

It’s not about making it a priority. It’s about having options and a noseplug NT doesn’t kill our pockets or destroy our scheme.

We will have to disagree on this one. Until I see our defense dominate the trenches I won’t call our decision to go with speed a success. If anything, it’s been a failure thus far.
Hey Oh wow, it’s all good.

We do have 1 DL dedicated to playing only NT, Dan McCullers. Not very good in my opinion. Plays way too high and seems like he can’t locate the ball when he does penetrate. Probably why he doesn’t see the field more. Hopefully Isaiah Buggs shows enough to push him off the roster.

You’re right. Looks like we’ll have to disagree on this one.
But it’s just a good, healthy Steelers football discussion. I truly appreciate it.

Go Steelers. :tt2

[RuthlessBurgher]

The point about teams no longer running the ball 60% of the time now is well taken.

But what about our division specifically?

Once Lamar Jackson took over the reins in Baltimore, the Ravens ran the ball more than any NFL team has in decades.

Cleveland drafted Nick Chubb last year then signed Kareem Hunt this year. Plus although Mayfield only ran the ball 39 times for 131 yards total as a rookie, during his 4 year college career, he ran the ball more than 400 times for over 1000 yards and more than 20 TD's on the ground.

In Cincy, I'd say Joe Mixon's legs are more of a weapon than Andy Dalton's arm. Plus they added a couple of depth RB's in this draft as well to keep him fresh (Texas A&M's Trayveon Williams and Oklahoma's Rodney Anderson).

I'd say being able to stop the run effectively is a big part of winning our division, which is our first goal every season.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

In Cincy, I'd say Joe Mixon's legs are more of a weapon than Andy Dalton's arm. Plus they added a couple of depth RB's in this draft as well to keep him fresh (Texas A&M's Trayveon Williams and Oklahoma's Rodney Anderson).
MIxon's arm was pretty dangerous too... wait... nevermind...

[RuthlessBurgher]

MIxon's arm was pretty dangerous too... wait... nevermind...

On-field NFL Comparison for Joe Mixon: Ray Rice

Off-field NFL Comparison for Joe Mixon: Ray Rice

[Captain Lemming]

The point about teams no longer running the ball 60% of the time now is well taken.

But what about our division specifically?

Once Lamar Jackson took over the reins in Baltimore, the Ravens ran the ball more than any NFL team has in decades.

Cleveland drafted Nick Chubb last year then signed Kareem Hunt this year. Plus although Mayfield only ran the ball 39 times for 131 yards total as a rookie, during his 4 year college career, he ran the ball more than 400 times for over 1000 yards and more than 20 TD's on the ground.

In Cincy, I'd say Joe Mixon's legs are more of a weapon than Andy Dalton's arm. Plus they added a couple of depth RB's in this draft as well to keep him fresh (Texas A&M's Trayveon Williams and Oklahoma's Rodney Anderson).

I'd say being able to stop the run effectively is a big part of winning our division, which is our first goal every season.

What you have BEHIND the NT is WAY more important than the NT in stopping the run.

I really think Hargrave ain't the problem at all.

We got slow Vince and fresh off the couch Spence at MLBer and we blame the NT for getting run over in the playoffs?

These are the COMPLETE LIST of Mlber starters Casey played with:
Earl Holmes
Kendrell Bell
James Farrior
Larry Foote
L. Timmins

Every season of Casey's career we had not one but at least two better inside linebackers than we had last season.

Most seasons our first guy off the bench was better than anybody on last seasons roster.

[Captain Lemming]

Let me add that in 2015 during the brief window where Timmons and Shazier started together:

Steve stinkin McLendon was starter at NT that season.

- We were 5th in run defense
- We allowed only 6 rushing TDs (2nd in the league)
- 3.8 YPC

We have had the number 1 run defense with Hoke and the number 5 run defense with McLendon

Its about what is "behind" the NT people.

[STH70]

Let me add that in 2015 during the brief window where Timmons and Shazier started together:

Steve stinkin McLendon was starter at NT that season.

- We were 5th in run defense
- We allowed only 6 rushing TDs (2nd in the league)
- 3.8 YPC

We have had the number 1 run defense with Hoke and the number 5 run defense with McLendon

Its about what is "behind" the NT people.
There it is. I agree 100%.

[STH70]

The point about teams no longer running the ball 60% of the time now is well taken.

But what about our division specifically?

Once Lamar Jackson took over the reins in Baltimore, the Ravens ran the ball more than any NFL team has in decades.

Cleveland drafted Nick Chubb last year then signed Kareem Hunt this year. Plus although Mayfield only ran the ball 39 times for 131 yards total as a rookie, during his 4 year college career, he ran the ball more than 400 times for over 1000 yards and more than 20 TD's on the ground.

In Cincy, I'd say Joe Mixon's legs are more of a weapon than Andy Dalton's arm. Plus they added a couple of depth RB's in this draft as well to keep him fresh (Texas A&M's Trayveon Williams and Oklahoma's Rodney Anderson).

I'd say being able to stop the run effectively is a big part of winning our division, which is our first goal every season.
With the defensive personnel decisions over the last few years along with adding more speed, it does seem like the Steelers were focused more on beating the Patriots than teams in our own division.

As far as our division:
The Bungles are still the Bungles and getting worse IMO. They will be the new Browns.
We could probably bring Big Snack back this year to start at NT and still beat them.

The Ravens did run a lot with Jackson at QB but will pass more with a passing attack designed to fit his strengths this year.
Stopping the Read Option is more about the last defender on the line and the LBs. Not the NT.

As for the Browns, Chubb and a suspended Hunt are one thing. But you don’t draft a QB #1 overall then sign Jarvis Landry and Odell Beckham to hand the ball off 60% of the time. I doubt that a run-stuffing NT will help against the Browns in the near future.

I think we’ll be fine without a Casey Hampton type NT, even in our own division. Just my opinion.

[hawaiiansteel]

PFF Wonders If This Is Javon Hargrave’s Last Season In Pittsburgh

By Matthew Marczi
Posted on June 26, 2019

The Pittsburgh Steelers have been a team ‘on the cusp’ for a long time now, seemingly, and it remains unclear just when, or if, they will be able to get over the hump, or what it will take to get there. Based on their drafting and free agency patterns, it would seems as though they believe the biggest problem has been on defense.

With the additions of Devin Bush, Steven Nelson, and Mark Barron, plus the additional development of young players such as T.J. Watt and Terrell Edmunds, might 2019 finally be the year in which the defense is more part of the solution than the problem?

Pro Football Focus took a look at the Steelers’ defense recently heading into this season and commented on a number of players. One of the players that they singled out for discussion was fourth-year defensive tackle Javon Hargrave, whom they argued could be in his last season in Pittsburgh.

“Hargrave was just as effective as Heyward and Tuitt” against the run, the article reads, “finishing with 27 stops — four more than Tuitt and two less than Heyward. All things considered, Hargrave has been playing at a starter-caliber level and will be in a contract year in 2019. The Steelers might be getting their last year out of the former South Carolina State product”.

That’s not to mention that he also had a career-high six and a half sacks last season, which can largely be attributed to his increased opportunities in the nickel and dime defense, from which he recorded all but two of his sacks.

The Steelers do a better job than most—and a much better job than some—of retaining their own quality homegrown talent, but we all know that some of them do eventually get away. With major dollars already committed to Cameron Heyward and Stephon Tuitt, it may be hard for the team to justify getting an extension done with Hargrave this offseason before he is able to hit unrestricted free agent in 2020—and they certainly are not going to tag him.

Hargrave has spent his three seasons in the league growing into a very nice, well-rounded player, proving and then some that coming from a small school should never have been a concern for him at the scouting level. He dominated his competition because he was just that good.

But there will be other contracts coming up, soon enough. JuJu Smith-Schuster and James Conner would be due for extensions in 2020, for example. They still have to figure out what they are going to do with Sean Davis and Joe Haden, both of whom are in the final years of their deals.

Can a defensive tackle like Hargrave fit into their plans when they already have two players along the line like Heyward and Tuitt? That’s between the front office and coaching staff to decide.


https://steelersdepot.com/2019/06/pff-wonders-if-this-is-javon-hargraves-last-season-in-pittsburgh/

[NorthCoast]

PFF Wonders If This Is Javon Hargrave’s Last Season In Pittsburgh

By Matthew Marczi
Posted on June 26, 2019

The Pittsburgh Steelers have been a team ‘on the cusp’ for a long time now, seemingly, and it remains unclear just when, or if, they will be able to get over the hump, or what it will take to get there. Based on their drafting and free agency patterns, it would seems as though they believe the biggest problem has been on defense.

With the additions of Devin Bush, Steven Nelson, and Mark Barron, plus the additional development of young players such as T.J. Watt and Terrell Edmunds, might 2019 finally be the year in which the defense is more part of the solution than the problem?

Pro Football Focus took a look at the Steelers’ defense recently heading into this season and commented on a number of players. One of the players that they singled out for discussion was fourth-year defensive tackle Javon Hargrave, whom they argued could be in his last season in Pittsburgh.

“Hargrave was just as effective as Heyward and Tuitt” against the run, the article reads, “finishing with 27 stops — four more than Tuitt and two less than Heyward. All things considered, Hargrave has been playing at a starter-caliber level and will be in a contract year in 2019. The Steelers might be getting their last year out of the former South Carolina State product”.

That’s not to mention that he also had a career-high six and a half sacks last season, which can largely be attributed to his increased opportunities in the nickel and dime defense, from which he recorded all but two of his sacks.

The Steelers do a better job than most—and a much better job than some—of retaining their own quality homegrown talent, but we all know that some of them do eventually get away. With major dollars already committed to Cameron Heyward and Stephon Tuitt, it may be hard for the team to justify getting an extension done with Hargrave this offseason before he is able to hit unrestricted free agent in 2020—and they certainly are not going to tag him.

Hargrave has spent his three seasons in the league growing into a very nice, well-rounded player, proving and then some that coming from a small school should never have been a concern for him at the scouting level. He dominated his competition because he was just that good.

But there will be other contracts coming up, soon enough. JuJu Smith-Schuster and James Conner would be due for extensions in 2020, for example. They still have to figure out what they are going to do with Sean Davis and Joe Haden, both of whom are in the final years of their deals.

Can a defensive tackle like Hargrave fit into their plans when they already have two players along the line like Heyward and Tuitt? That’s between the front office and coaching staff to decide.


https://steelersdepot.com/2019/06/pff-wonders-if-this-is-javon-hargraves-last-season-in-pittsburgh/

Thanks Hawaiian. Was gonna post this... Depot right on queue.

They need to resign Hargrave. Tuitt has been up and down in recent seasons.

[Disco1981]

Thanks Hawaiian. Was gonna post this... Depot right on queue.

They need to resign Hargrave. Tuitt has been up and down in recent seasons.

Agreed...I would like to see Hargrave signed over Davus, Haden, and Tuiit...If it came down to a choice of someone

[pittpete]

Davis is/should be good as gone if he doesnt turn it on this year

[Captain Lemming]

Agreed...I would like to see Hargrave signed over Davus, Haden, and Tuiit...If it came down to a choice of someone

Nah, Haden is priority.
I agree on Tuitt but he got his deal already.
Davis? Yeah unless he has a big year, I'm with you.

Bottom line as the article implies, Hargrave might be unaffordable.
We would have signed him already if that was gonna happen.

I really think he is MUCH better than most Steeler fans believe.
The fact that he gets no love because the guys behind him are scrubs compared to who Casey played with is ridiculous.

His productivity at NT? 6 1/2 sacks? That is rare air.
He would be a beast as an interior lineman in a 4-3 and when other teams see the tape, they will out bid us.

[STH70]

I think we have to sign Haden for obvious reasons.

Hargrave is the next top priority. Production, versatility and his arrow is pointing straight up.
Also, we have no prospects behind him even close to his abilities.

Davis is a doubtful signing in my opinion.

[Oviedo]

I think we have to sign Haden for obvious reasons.

Hargrave is the next top priority. Production, versatility and his arrow is pointing straight up.
Also, we have no prospects behind him even close to his abilities.

Davis is a doubtful signing in my opinion.


IMO, Davis could be a value signing. This year is critical for him but even if he has a good year he is not likely to command big dollars. As long as we see progression may be a good resign for us.

I'm not as down as some are on Davis. He hasn't been great but he hasn't been terrible either. IMO he is an above average Safety and we really don't have a starter quality guy waiting to take his place

[Northern_Blitz]

IMO, Davis could be a value signing. This year is critical for him but even if he has a good year he is not likely to command big dollars. As long as we see progression may be a good resign for us.

I'm not as down as some are on Davis. He hasn't been great but he hasn't been terrible either. IMO he is an above average Safety and we really don't have a starter quality guy waiting to take his place

I like Davis too and think he's got a reasonable shot on having a good year.

But, I do think it's doubtful we get something done with him now. I agree with STH70 that Haden and Hargrave are likely higher priorities.

I don't know if we'll have money left in the pot to do Davis as well.

We also got a bit screwed by the market this year. Seems like the S market was down last year, but up this year. That will probably affect his asking price.