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View Full Version : Ben versus Tomlin- Both deserve credit AND blame



Captain Lemming
04-12-2019, 10:30 AM
Biggist problem is that people line up behind "their" guy and blame the other.
The truth is that BOTH share credit and blame.

Lets talk Ben:
To put a majority of the Jags playoff loss on Ben is RIDICUOUS. The Steelers have NEVER SCORED MORE IN A PLAYOFF GAME. Ben made mistakes but did FAR MORE good to offset his mistakes as he broke all time team records in that game.
He was FAR BETTER than he was in MOST playoff wins.
Tomlins defense was HORRIBLE. His own comments show he was looking past the Jags.

CONVERSELY, to defend Bens idiot comments or the accompanying game he blew and blamed on a teamate?
That is the OTHER extreme.
Ben's comments show an arrogant mindset that he does whatever he wants.
When he throws a stupid pick, ESPECIALLY if it is not balanced by an offensive explosion it is HIS fault.....dont defend him




Similarly with Tomlin.
To disregard his successes WHICH ARE MANY is ridiculous. To credit BC for players like a linebacker (Harrison) he refused to play, a QB (Ben) he didnt want to draft, a corner (Ike) he had no idea how to fix, and a safety (Clarke) who was TERRIBLE under Cowher. You give Tomlin no credit taking a secondary that was in disarray and remolding IT to the number one pass defense MULTIPLE times?

Tomlin cant coach secondary as a Steeler coach? Really?

Do you even realize Cowher has NEVER coach the leagues number one pass defense? (source: sort pass defense rank here (
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CowhBi0.htm)

Yes people.....Rod Woodson, Carnell Lake......NEVER NUMBER ONE.
You wanna talk "Cowhers Players"? Cowhers players NEVER number one pass defense under Cowher.

From 2000 til the Seahawks became great, there were only TWO dominant pass defenses of any duration in the NFL.
Tomlin was the one common denominator of those defenses.

BTW Tomlin has more number one Steeler pass defenses than ANY coach in team history INCLUDING Nolls Steel Curtain. Tomlin did it with ZERO elite cornerbacks, while Cowher and Noll had corners who are in the GOAT discussion.

You wanna talk todays secondary......you cant make a gourmet meal out of garbage no matter the chef.



THAT ALL SAID
To absolve Tomlin of blame for the current state of the Steelers is ALSO ridiculous. He helped create the circus environment we see today by his pampering of elite talent. He created the monster AB is today. He DID overuse Bell (irony is Bell looks more "elite" than he is BECAUSE we overuse him with so many touches). The players blatant disrespect is terrible.

Even Ben's comments are in part on Tomlin. Dude talkin like his picks dont matter? Publicly throwing teammates under the bus is "leadership".
Who give Ben this mindset? Never mid Belichick, Bill Cowher sure aint going for that!
Ben basically implied he does on the field and says whatever he wants.

Bottom line:
We have a borderline great QB that NEEDS to clean up the frequency of his mistakes.
We have here a "good" not great coach who lost his way giving too much credit for players to be grownups.

I feel like last season was a wakeup call for both.

I also think that getting rid of the cancers, plus the lost season, empowers Tomlin to "lay down the law" to a very receptive audience of players who will be hungry to cooperate.

Oh wow
04-12-2019, 10:42 AM
Good post.

Not sure Tomlin is responsible for AB’s toxic behavior. Fame and money is a helluva drug. AB lasted until the 6th round due to his attitude and red flags.

I agree with almost everything but the #1 rankings. Rankings aren’t he end all be all IMO.

Captain Lemming
04-12-2019, 10:54 AM
Good post.

Not sure Tomlin is responsible for AB’s toxic behavior. Fame and money is a helluva drug. AB lasted until the 6th round due to his attitude and red flags.

I agree with almost everything but the #1 rankings. Rankings aren’t he end all be all IMO.

Ranking arent the end all. But to take a 20 something pass defense to number one IN TWO SEASONS something Cowher never did in his career?
Bottom line is the best Steer pass defenses since the 70's were ALL coached by Tomlin.

Captain Lemming
04-12-2019, 10:55 AM
Good post.

Not sure Tomlin is responsible for AB’s toxic behavior. Fame and money is a helluva drug. AB lasted until the 6th round due to his attitude and red flags.

I agree with almost everything but the #1 rankings. Rankings aren’t he end all be all IMO.

Also you do know (since we debated this) that I was probably THE ONLY ONE ON THIS FORUM, who did NOT want to give Brown his big money deal.

How ya like me now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9_nAZ3VEA0

RuthlessBurgher
04-12-2019, 11:00 AM
Bottom line is the best Steer pass defenses since the 70's were ALL coached by Tomlin.

The only "Steer" pass defense I can think of would be the University of Texas Longhorns, I suppose.
But I don't recall Tomlin ever coaching in Austin. ;)

Captain Lemming
04-12-2019, 11:03 AM
The only "Steer" pass defense I can think of would be the University of Texas Longhorns, I suppose.
But I don't recall Tomlin ever coaching in Austin. ;)

LOL.....good one

Steel Maniac
04-12-2019, 12:11 PM
Ranking arent the end all. But to take a 20 something pass defense to number one IN TWO SEASONS something Cowher never did in his career?
Bottom line is the best Steer pass defenses since the 70's were ALL coached by Tomlin.

Based on? Because our 13-3 season, on paper that regular season, it looked like we had a decent pass defense but in reality we faced only two legit QB's in Brady and Stafford..and both tore us up in yardage..

My point is numbers can be deceiving; sometimes digging an extra layer or two tells a different tale.

NorthCoast
04-12-2019, 12:14 PM
One could argue the team environment Tomlin created actually enabled keeping two (maybe 3) headcases together far longer than another coach might have done.
Gonna be real interesting how well Gruden manages MBC.

Steel Maniac
04-12-2019, 12:28 PM
One could argue the team environment Tomlin created actually enabled keeping two (maybe 3) headcases together far longer than another coach might have done.
Gonna be real interesting how well Gruden manages MBC.

Created or allowed

NorthCoast
04-12-2019, 12:43 PM
Created or allowed

Does he get equal credit for creating vs allowing?

Steel Maniac
04-12-2019, 12:47 PM
Does he get equal credit for creating vs allowing?

yes...............

Oh wow
04-12-2019, 12:51 PM
Based on? Because our 13-3 season, on paper that regular season, it looked like we had a decent pass defense but in reality we faced only two legit QB's in Brady and Stafford..and both tore us up in yardage..

My point is numbers can be deceiving; sometimes digging an extra layer or two tells a different tale.

Iíll take yards all day over points allowed.

Stafford lit us up but couldnít get in the end zone. Pretty sure we had 2 GL stops against them.

NorthCoast
04-12-2019, 01:00 PM
I’ll take yards all day over points allowed.

Stafford lit us up but couldn’t get in the end zone. Pretty sure we had 2 GL stops against them.

Welcome to the new NFL...where yards come cheap.

fordfixer
04-12-2019, 07:04 PM
Also you do know (since we debated this) that I was probably THE ONLY ONE ON THIS FORUM, who did NOT want to give Brown his big money deal.

How ya like me now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9_nAZ3VEA0
What makes you think we liked you to start with? :p

Captain Lemming
04-14-2019, 12:41 AM
Based on? Because our 13-3 season, on paper that regular season, it looked like we had a decent pass defense but in reality we faced only two legit QB's in Brady and Stafford..and both tore us up in yardage..

My point is numbers can be deceiving; sometimes digging an extra layer or two tells a different tale.

Sometimes they are decieving. In this case they are not. I did the work, if you wanna make a case that my facts aren't valid you gotta "dig deeper" than some irrelevant comment about 2017 when nobody contends our pass defense was great. :-)

Steel Maniac
04-14-2019, 12:47 AM
Disagree Cap,

Blake Bortles in the 4th qtr of our playoff game, where he scored 17 points says hello. :rolleyes:

Oh wow
04-14-2019, 08:42 AM
Disagree Cap,

Blake Bortles in the 4th qtr of our playoff game, where he scored 17 points says hello. :rolleyes:

You are doing it again

Cap just said he didn’t call our 2017 pass defense great so pointing out 2017 is irrelevant.

Captain Lemming
04-14-2019, 09:18 AM
Disagree Cap,

Blake Bortles in the 4th qtr of our playoff game, where he scored 17 points says hello. :rolleyes:

What does that have to do with Tomlins league leading pass defenses. 2017 was not one of those seasons.
You are GREAT at winning aguments people arent making my friend. :)

If what you are saying is that this proves you sometimes need to "dig deeper" no argument.

Just "dig deeper" in those years we were actually number one, rather than use an irrelevant example.
Fact is YOU CANT because if you dig deeper in those seasons......you will only find MORE backing for my contention. :)

Captain Lemming
04-14-2019, 09:24 AM
You are doing it again

Cap just said he didn’t call our 2017 pass defense great so pointing out 2017 is irrelevant.


Wheres NORTH......dudes got that strawman pic. :)

Captain Lemming
04-14-2019, 09:48 AM
Dig deeper?
NO TEAM IN HISTORY has been number 1 in defensively in total yards, rush yards, pass yards, and (most importantly) scoring. It has NEVER happened.

The closest team EVER to ranking first in those 4 categories in one season?

2008 Steelers:
Number one in total yardage D, scoring D, passing D, and number 2 in rushing D by a mere 50 yards.

Northern_Blitz
04-14-2019, 09:49 AM
Wheres NORTH......dudes got that strawman pic. :)

How about this one?

http://i0.wp.com/www.thechristianegoist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/strawman-full.jpg?resize=614%2C299

This is my favorite looking one, but it's nice to have the description of what it means in the image too.

https://blacklabellogic.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/strawman.jpg?w=349&h=283

Captain Lemming
04-14-2019, 10:50 AM
What makes you think we liked you to start with? :p

(Spoken in the tone of a condescending intellectual)

My dear sir, it appears you miss the very essence of the lyrical masterpiece I have shared.
Do you not realize that the entire point of the composition PRESUPPOSES that said singer was "unappreciated" (NOT liked) to start with.
Therefore, application of the song to myself implies that my original contention was in fact "not liked".

With the aid of the artist "Kool Mo Dee" I thus contend that the passage of time has in fact, proved my contention correct.

In the spirit of uninhibited braggadocio I proclaim my intellectual victory with the cleverly worded yet grammatically incorrect expression-
"How you like me NOW." :)

Northern_Blitz
04-14-2019, 10:57 AM
(Spoken in the tone of a condescending intellectual)

My dear sir, it appears you miss the very essence of the lyrical masterpiece I have shared.
Do you not realize that the entire point of the composition PRESUPPOSES that said singer was "unappreciated" (NOT liked) to start with.
Therefore.....application of the song to myself implies that my original contention was in fact unappreciated.

With the aid of the artist "Kool Mo Dee" I thus contend that the passage of time has in fact, proved my contention correct.

In the spirit of uninhibited braggadocio I proclaim my intellectual victory with the cleverly worded yet grammatically incorrect expression...."how you like me NOW." :)

As a condescending intellectual, I resent your tone! :p

Captain Lemming
04-14-2019, 11:12 AM
As a condescending intellectual, I resent your tone! :p

If you actually knew the meaning of the expression "condescending intellectual" (clearly cut and pasted from from my post like a trained baboon) you would not take offense at my comments.

Northern_Blitz
04-14-2019, 11:34 AM
If you actually knew the meaning of the expression "condescending intellectual" (clearly cut and pasted from from my post like a trained baboon) you would not take offense at my comments.

I'm probably missing something here, but just to be sure: I'm not actually offended just trying to play along.

Captain Lemming
04-14-2019, 11:57 AM
I'm probably missing something here, but just to be sure: I'm not actually offended just trying to play along.


Really North? Are you that dense?

Do you fail to grasp that my superior intellect makes it easy for me to understand your pathetic attempt at humor?

Must I ALWAYS include a little picture of a smiley face just so your child like mind can understand that I KNOW YOU ARE JUST PLAYING ALONG and that I was not serious in my reply?

OK here you go :)

Northern_Blitz
04-14-2019, 01:08 PM
Really North? Are you that dense?

Do you fail to grasp that my superior intellect makes it easy for me to understand your pathetic attempt at humor?

Must I ALWAYS include a little picture of a smiley face just so your child like mind can understand that I KNOW YOU ARE JUST PLAYING ALONG and that I was not serious in my reply?

OK here you go :)

I do like smiley faces...

fordfixer
04-14-2019, 03:44 PM
(Spoken in the tone of a condescending intellectual)

My dear sir, it appears you miss the very essence of the lyrical masterpiece I have shared.
Do you not realize that the entire point of the composition PRESUPPOSES that said singer was "unappreciated" (NOT liked) to start with.
Therefore, application of the song to myself implies that my original contention was in fact "not liked".

With the aid of the artist "Kool Mo Dee" I thus contend that the passage of time has in fact, proved my contention correct.

In the spirit of uninhibited braggadocio I proclaim my intellectual victory with the cleverly worded yet grammatically incorrect expression-
"How you like me NOW." :)
O K you win ( thanks for the smiley );) I must confess though that I didn’t listen to the song.

RuthlessBurgher
04-14-2019, 04:36 PM
O K you win ( thanks for the smiley );) I must confess though that I didn’t listen to the song.

I prefer "How You Like Me Now?" by The Heavy.

hawaiiansteel
04-14-2019, 05:01 PM
I do like smiley faces...

who doesn't? :) :D