What if machine: Tim Benz article makes a fair point

[brothervad]

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/timbenz/breakfastwithbenz/14464739-74/tim-benz-antonio-brown-quit-on-steelers-mike-tomlin-wouldve-played-him

In a nutshell, if Cleveland wins on Sunday this incident becomes nothing more than a diva moment that continues to enable Antonio Brown's boorish behavior.

Frankly, it wouldn't have come out other than a endnotes of some article and Tomlin would've shrugged it off.

Does anyone here really think that Mike Tomlin would've suspended him for a playoff game?

So a question for the board:

Given the inevitability of this coming to a head, was missing the playoffs a blessing in disguise?

Assuming that changes are made to Tomlin's approach, locker room culture change as well as coaching changes?

Brothervad

[BURGH86STEEL]

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/timbenz/breakfastwithbenz/14464739-74/tim-benz-antonio-brown-quit-on-steelers-mike-tomlin-wouldve-played-him

In a nutshell, if Cleveland wins on Sunday this incident becomes nothing more than a diva moment that continues to enable Antonio Brown's boorish behavior.

Does anyone here really think that Mike Tomlin would've suspended him for a playoff game?

So a question for the board:

Given the inevitability of this coming to a head, was missing the playoffs a blessing in disguise?

Assuming that changes are made to Tomlin's approach, locker room culture change as well as coaching changes?

Brothervad

Some players can't be managed regardless of locker room culture, discipline, ect. Those individuals believe they are much bigger than the team and game.

Those individuals need to reach a realization within themselves once they receive advice. What advice do they follow? The good or the bad?

[brothervad]

That I don't disagree, but conversely you can't enable that behavior forever.

I think Tomlin may understand now he cannot have an enabler type of culture.

If he doesn't learn, it will be his ultimate undoing IMO.

[Chucktownsteeler]

I don't see how its ever positive to miss the playoffs. I could be wrong.

Purely hypothetical, but I don't think Tomlin would have held him out of the play-offs, unless AB further added to the situation.

[papillon]

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/timbenz/breakfastwithbenz/14464739-74/tim-benz-antonio-brown-quit-on-steelers-mike-tomlin-wouldve-played-him

In a nutshell, if Cleveland wins on Sunday this incident becomes nothing more than a diva moment that continues to enable Antonio Brown's boorish behavior.

Frankly, it wouldn't have come out other than a endnotes of some article and Tomlin would've shrugged it off.

Does anyone here really think that Mike Tomlin would've suspended him for a playoff game?

So a question for the board:

Given the inevitability of this coming to a head, was missing the playoffs a blessing in disguise?

Assuming that changes are made to Tomlin's approach, locker room culture change as well as coaching changes?

Brothervad

For me as a fan, missing the playoffs sucks because I enjoy watching football in which I have a vested interest, the season is done for me, maybe I'll watch but if something better comes up I won't be watching. I also don't think you can assume that had the Browns won that this incident would have been a footnote. ABs teammates are turning on him, they aren't believing the injury, a couple have made mention of chemistry, etc., this may have continued into the playoffs.

Pappy

[brothervad]

Pap,

As a fan I agree. But I am not sure you would even hear his teammates turn on him if this doesn't happen.

I think the focus would've been beating San Diego.

We will never know and the reason I posted this was so we could discuss (obviously ;)).

Brothervad

[BURGH86STEEL]

That I don't disagree, but conversely you can't enable that behavior forever.

I think Tomlin may understand now he cannot have an enabler type of culture.

If he doesn't learn, it will be his ultimate undoing IMO.

I don't think the organization enabled it. The organization cut or traded problematic players in the past. What makes this situation different is that he produces and is owed a lot of money. I don't know of any ownership that's happy to part with millions of dollars and get nothing in return. Brown would be gone if he were a lesser player that had minimal salary ramifications.

We all know that talented players get more latitude than others. I don't know if Brown an issue before the football production, money, and ultimately fame. He didn't appear to be this way before all of that. Maybe the pressure of all that has caused him to lose his mind? Maybe it's drugs? Seems strange to those of us on the outside looking in.

[papillon]

Pap,

As a fan I agree. But I am not sure you would even hear his teammates turn on him if this doesn't happen.

I think the focus would've been beating San Diego.

We will never know and the reason I posted this was so we could discuss (obviously ;)).

Brothervad

You're right there is no guarantee that the teammates would have turned on him had the Browns won, but this feels different for some reason. I don't recall teammates on any team being this vocal about an internal issue, the players typically stick together, just like salary negotiations. I was surprised when Steelers came out and were roasting Bell about his contract, playing, not playing disaster. So, this is the second time now in which teammates have thrown a Steeler star player under the bus. It just feels different.

Pappy

[NorthCoast]

Tomlin suspended him for what was essentially a playoff game for the Steelers. So I think you got your answer. And btw, the gameplan is usually installed on Wednesdays. Not a lot of time to make adjustments.
There were 21 other guys out there trying to win a game regardless of the chance for the postseason.

[Oviedo]

That I don't disagree, but conversely you can't enable that behavior forever.

I think Tomlin may understand now he cannot have an enabler type of culture.

If he doesn't learn, it will be his ultimate undoing IMO.

Help me understand the "enabler culture."

AB clearly thought he could have his hissy fit and come back and play. It was Tomlin that lowered the boom and said we don't do that here. Doesn't sound like enabling to me

[rpmpit]

Tomlin suspended him for what was essentially a playoff game for the Steelers. So I think you got your answer. And btw, the gameplan is usually installed on Wednesdays. Not a lot of time to make adjustments.
There were 21 other guys out there trying to win a game regardless of the chance for the postseason.

Exactly. Those who continue to call for Tomlin's job because of a perceived lack of discipline should think about what it took to keep his number one offensive weapon in a fur coat on the sidelines.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Help me understand the "enabler culture."

AB clearly thought he could have his hissy fit and come back and play. It was Tomlin that lowered the boom and said we don't do that here. Doesn't sound like enabling to me
:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap

Trust me, Tomlin's got his faults and makes his mistakes. But, that wasn't one of them. I'm not sure that many of use would have had the sack to suspend AB in what essentially was a playoff game.

[MCHammer]

don't recall teammates on any team being this vocal about an internal issue, the players typically stick together, just like salary negotiations. I was surprised when Steelers came out and were roasting Bell about his contract, playing, not playing disaster. So, this is the second time now in which teammates have thrown a Steeler star player under the bus. It just feels different.


Exactly. This team has a major leadership deficit from the top down. Rooneys do nothing to correct Tomlin, even to the point of allowing him to make replay and clock management decisions based on his "gut". Tomlin does nothing to correct players, including Ben, whose passive aggressive radio schtick feeds into the drama, lack of discipline and other goofball issues that have turned this team into a dumpster fire.

If you watch coverage on ESPN, you'll note quite few comments from ex-players about how they have never seen a locker room behave the way the Steelers did with regard to Bell's holdout.

[MCHammer]

Exactly. Those who continue to call for Tomlin's job because of a perceived lack of discipline should think about what it took to keep his number one offensive weapon in a fur coat on the sidelines.

Not calling for Tomlin's job, but the fact that he allowed the situation to get to this point is problematic. The fact that Brown treats it like a joke - wearing the absurd fur coat - and now de-balling Tomlin in front of the entire League also ought to say something.

It is not a "perceived lack of discipline." It is a demonstrated lack of discipline.

At he beginning of the season (I believe prior to week 1), Tomlin gave an interview to Joe Starkey and was asked about whether he ran a loose organization and let the players get away with too much. Tomlin's reply was basically that his record speaks for itself.

Yes, it does.

[papillon]

:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap

Trust me, Tomlin's got his faults and makes his mistakes. But, that wasn't one of them. I'm not sure that many of use would have had the sack to suspend AB in what essentially was a playoff game.

I say it was an easier call given the circumstances, depleted Bengals roster and unlikely chance that Baltimore loses. He did the right thing but doing it the following week, if the Browns had won the game, would have taken far more Chutzpah.

Pappy

[Disco1981]

I agree 100%...IF, we would have made the playoffs...Tomlin would have shrugged it off, when asked, probably lied...Get ready for playoffs, honky doory...

BUT it didn't...The press and everyone else is livid...Tomlin spills his guts, because his seat is not just hot, it's scorching...

It took something as bad as this...Fior EVERYONE to tell the truth

[pittpete]

Tomlin suspended him for what was essentially a playoff game for the Steelers. So I think you got your answer. And btw, the gameplan is usually installed on Wednesdays. Not a lot of time to make adjustments.
There were 21 other guys out there trying to win a game regardless of the chance for the postseason.
If you read or listened to Tomlin presser he stated since they already played the Bengals he was comfortable with AB taking a day off of practice.
AB wasnt suspended, he was made inactive.Theres a difference IMO.

[pittpete]

:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap

Trust me, Tomlin's got his faults and makes his mistakes. But, that wasn't one of them. I'm not sure that many of use would have had the sack to suspend AB in what essentially was a playoff game.

I concur 100%..
Tomlin probably spends more time babysitting millionaire children then actually coaching

[Steel Maniac]

Oh, I’d have had more then the balls to do it. But I’d have checked him earlier. And especially last week when he was mad about JUju being featured on the last drive.

[Buzz]

Not calling for Tomlin's job, but the fact that he allowed the situation to get to this point is problematic. The fact that Brown treats it like a joke - wearing the absurd fur coat - and now de-balling Tomlin in front of the entire League also ought to say something.

It is not a "perceived lack of discipline." It is a demonstrated lack of discipline.

At he beginning of the season (I believe prior to week 1), Tomlin gave an interview to Joe Starkey and was asked about whether he ran a loose organization and let the players get away with too much. Tomlin's reply was basically that his record speaks for itself.

Yes, it does.

Yep.

Schlereth says several Steelers players have told him that Tomlin's mantra over the course of his tenure has been, "I'll put up with you until I can replace you." That's the way he deals with nonsense from his players. That's what enabled AB to get to where he got, to pull the shenanigans he pulled last week and then show up at the game on Sunday and expect to play. If Tomlin had been enforcing discipline all along, there's no way that happens.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

I say it was an easier call given the circumstances, depleted Bengals roster and unlikely chance that Baltimore loses. He did the right thing but doing it the following week, if the Browns had won the game, would have taken far more Chutzpah.

Pappy
can't say that I agree.... If you've watched the browns at all, you know they actually had a chance in that game. They are NOT A bad team. And clearly, based on how it turned out, odds were not "unlikely", but, much more even than "bettors" thought.

Baker Mayfield is going to be a problem for the rest of our division for many years to come, if healthy.

[BURGH86STEEL]

Yep.

Schlereth says several Steelers players have told him that Tomlin's mantra over the course of his tenure has been, "I'll put up with you until I can replace you." That's the way he deals with nonsense from his players. That's what enabled AB to get to where he got, to pull the shenanigans he pulled last week and then show up at the game on Sunday and expect to play. If Tomlin had been enforcing discipline all along, there's no way that happens.

The NFL matra in general is I'll pay you and put up with you while you can play. I will replace you whenever you out live your ability to play regardless of contract status.

Really? No way? The Steelers fined, cut, suspended, and traded players that acted up. Heck the NFL cut, fined, suspended, black balled, and unofficially banned players that acted up.

Even after witnessing all that do you still believe there's no way those things happens with AB? AB crossing the line is not Tomlin's fault. That's on AB. The Steelers need to decide the next step in the process. After all, it's their millions on the line.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

"I'll put up with you until I can replace you."
gotta imagine that's pretty common around the league... and why guys like Chad, TO, Randy Moss, and today, OBJ, AB... WRs are often divas anyway, but, they get away with a lot as long as they're the best WR on the team. Problem is JuJu needs AB over there right now - he struggled in that last game when HE got the double team alone...

[papillon]

can't say that I agree.... If you've watched the browns at all, you know they actually had a chance in that game. They are NOT A bad team. And clearly, based on how it turned out, odds were not "unlikely", but, much more even than "bettors" thought.

Baker Mayfield is going to be a problem for the rest of our division for many years to come, if healthy.

No doubt, I thought the Browns had a fighting chance but the Ravens are on a roll and the Bengals were depleted, so I still think it was an easier call to bench AB against the Bengals than it would have been the following week had they made the playoffs.

Pappy

[NorthCoast]

Yep.

Schlereth says several Steelers players have told him that Tomlin's mantra over the course of his tenure has been, "I'll put up with you until I can replace you." That's the way he deals with nonsense from his players. That's what enabled AB to get to where he got, to pull the shenanigans he pulled last week and then show up at the game on Sunday and expect to play. If Tomlin had been enforcing discipline all along, there's no way that happens.
And what have the Steelers done in the draft the last two years?? Drafted WRs that everyone claimed wasn't necessary. And guess what, Tomlin now has AB's replacement on the roster.
Tomlin just might be a lot smarter than most of you.

[Notleadpoisoned]

And what have the Steelers done in the draft the last two years?? Drafted WRs that everyone claimed wasn't necessary. And guess what, Tomlin now has AB's replacement on the roster.
Tomlin just might be a lot smarter than most of you.
JuJu, James Washington and either Switzer or Eli Rogers in the slot should be a formidable unit.

[Buzz]

JuJu, James Washington and either Switzer or Eli Rogers in the slot should be a formidable unit.

Without AB, it won't likely be near as dynamic as what we've had, but it could be a blessing in that it would force the Steelers to go with a running attack more than they have, which could go a long way in helping us to close out games when we have a lead.

[Buzz]

And what have the Steelers done in the draft the last two years?? Drafted WRs that everyone claimed wasn't necessary. And guess what, Tomlin now has AB's replacement on the roster.
Tomlin just might be a lot smarter than most of you.

I don't know that there's a replacement ready to step in and match AB's production. Then again, we might not have to, see my above post.

[NorthCoast]

I don't know that there's a replacement ready to step in and match AB's production. Then again, we might not have to, see my above post.Agreed Buzz... and it's a welcome change in my mind. Maybe knock Roethlisberger down a notch or two as well. I've noticed his head seems to have swelled.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Without AB, it won't likely be near as dynamic as what we've had, but it could be a blessing in that it would force the Steelers to go with a running attack more than they have, which could go a long way in helping us to close out games when we have a lead.

True (although Eli not under contract next year) but Ben will also be in a situation where he doesn't feel the need to force the ball to one receiver who is being double covered in order to appease the situation.

We often come to the message board after losses and wonder why Ben keeps trying to force the ball so often. I saw a couple of stats that underline that. One stat IIRC was that Ben had a completion percentage of 61% when targeting AB, but around 70% otherwise. The other is that 6 of Ben's 16 ints (38%) were on targets to AB while about 25% of his passes were targeted to him. An indicator that maybe he is forcing the ball to him too much. Whether real or imagined, it seemed that Ben was too often pre-occupied with feeding AB the ball and if that changes without him here then it may go far towards upgrading the results of this offense.

[Oviedo]

can't say that I agree.... If you've watched the browns at all, you know they actually had a chance in that game. They are NOT A bad team. And clearly, based on how it turned out, odds were not "unlikely", but, much more even than "bettors" thought.

Baker Mayfield is going to be a problem for the rest of our division for many years to come, if healthy.

I said at the beginning of the season that the Browns were going to be better than the Ravens and the Bumgals. I was almost completely right. They will be a team to be reckoned with going forward

[Oviedo]

Agreed Buzz... and it's a welcome change in my mind. Maybe knock Roethlisberger down a notch or two as well. I've noticed his head seems to have swelled.


Are you in the millinery business and is Ben one of your customers? If not I'd be interested how you have empirically detected an increased circumference in his cranial area.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Are you in the millinery business and is Ben one of your customers? If not I'd be interested how you have empirically detected an increased circumference in his cranial area.

Barry Bonds' head swelled like Trey Griffey's father in that Simpsons episode.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNcCdL7WgAAV2Xc.jpg

[fordfixer]

Like I said in another thread
winning Heals a lot of wounds.

[Buzz]

We've become the Bengals.

Good article by Tim Benz from early in the season:


https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/timbenz/breakfastwithbenz/14098445-74/tim-benz-with-all-this-turmoil-steelers-are-becoming-bengals

[Oviedo]

We've become the Bengals.

Good article by Tim Benz from early in the season:


https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/timbenz/breakfastwithbenz/14098445-74/tim-benz-with-all-this-turmoil-steelers-are-becoming-bengals


Who is Benz and what legitimacy does he have?

[NorthCoast]

Are you in the millinery business and is Ben one of your customers? If not I'd be interested how you have empirically detected an increased circumference in his cranial area.

Donno, check it. I detect swelling:

2004
http://images.performgroup.com/di/library/sporting_news/25/dd/roethlisberger-040115-draft-getty-ftr_1u3vu46yfjt8l10vtznfdfgx5n.jpg?t=1992500404&w=960&quality=70

2018

https://cdn.chatsports.com/cache/df/65/df65f03812776234e4481a16c3ade50b-original.jpg

[Buzz]

Who is Benz and what legitimacy does he have?

He put together a reasonable case for the point he was making, IMO.

[NorthCoast]

I said at the beginning of the season that the Browns were going to be better than the Ravens and the Bumgals. I was almost completely right. They will be a team to be reckoned with going forwardOK. When you are a team in the sub-basement, going anywhere at all will be up. Keep in mind the Browns only beat one team with a winning record this season. So they are not basement dwellers, but they still have a lot to prove.

[Captain Lemming]

Are you in the millinery business and is Ben one of your customers? If not I'd be interested how you have empirically detected an increased circumference in his cranial area.

Dude you dont need "empirical" nothing.
A simple measuring tape.....heck just dont be "blind" to the facts and use your eyes

Rookie Ben

http://totalsteelers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/rooney-roethlisberger.jpg




"BIG" BEN today

https://i.imgur.com/VyeJh4u.jpg

[Captain Lemming]

NC.....you beat me to it.




Donno, check it. I detect swelling:

2004
http://images.performgroup.com/di/library/sporting_news/25/dd/roethlisberger-040115-draft-getty-ftr_1u3vu46yfjt8l10vtznfdfgx5n.jpg?t=1992500404&w=960&quality=70

2018

https://cdn.chatsports.com/cache/df/65/df65f03812776234e4481a16c3ade50b-original.jpg

[Moonie]

We've become the Bengals.

Good article by Tim Benz from early in the season:


https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/timbenz/breakfastwithbenz/14098445-74/tim-benz-with-all-this-turmoil-steelers-are-becoming-bengals

I didn't even read it because the title is so absurd. The Bengals are one of the worst franchises, year in and year out, in sports history. Even when they have a decent team, they are total losers. They reek of losing, with losing stench.

The Steelers are the exact opposite of that, and have been since I was a wee little Steelers fans in the early 70s.

I don't know who the author Benz is, but he sounds like he's a hysteric.

[Buzz]

I didn't even read it because the title is so absurd. The Bengals are one of the worst franchises, year in and year out, in sports history. Even when they have a decent team, they are total losers. They reek of losing, with losing stench.

The Steelers are the exact opposite of that, and have been since I was a wee little Steelers fans in the early 70s.

I don't know who the author Benz is, but he sounds like he's a hysteric.

If you bothered to read the article, you might not think he was so hysteric.

[Moonie]

If you bothered to read the article, you might not think he was so hysteric.

Highly unlikely. I can't imagine or conjure up a realistic set of operative facts that could make me fear the Steelers are anything close to being or becoming the Bengals.

[Ernie]

Agreed Buzz... and it's a welcome change in my mind. Maybe knock Roethlisberger down a notch or two as well. I've noticed his head seems to have swelled.

I like the idea of drafting a RB in the first few rounds to go with Conner.... and then use Samuels as the "Swiss Army Knife"... A lot of our problems with the turnover differential subside... if we get back to a more balanced attack.
I think that's perhaps something that we can do to help the defense as much as anything... Keep them off the field lol

[Ernie]

I said at the beginning of the season that the Browns were going to be better than the Ravens and the Bumgals. I was almost completely right. They will be a team to be reckoned with going forward

Yea... at the beginning of the year I said the Browns would win 7 or 8 games...and was scoffed by several members of the board... one of which is no longer a member lol..
The Browns have learned how to win...and will be a pain in the rear for several years to come.

[Notleadpoisoned]

Rookie Ben

http://totalsteelers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/rooney-roethlisberger.jpg




"BIG" BEN today

https://i.imgur.com/VyeJh4u.jpg[/QUOTE]
15 years and 1,500 Primanti sammiches later. Ben is just a more mature fattie now.

[Steel Maniac]

Yea... at the beginning of the year I said the Browns would win 7 or 8 games...and was scoffed by several members of the board... one of which is no longer a member lol..
The Browns have learned how to win...and will be a pain in the rear for several years to come.

You sure did. And I agreed with you because I knew Mayfield was the real deal. Browns are the team to worry about for years to come now. Ravens are done; they’ve got garbage Jackson at qb; no worries.

[NJ-STEELER]

do people really expect someone who is 21-22 coming out of college to look the same 14 years later?
google some pics of other players after a decade and a half of being drafted


even better, you all should post a pic of yourselves from those two ages and see if there's a difference

[fordfixer]

do people really expect someone who is 21-22 coming out of college to look the same 14 years later?
google some pics of other players after a decade and a half of being drafted


even better, you all should post a pic of yourselves from those two ages and see if there's a difference
Yep and I’d be willing to bet most of us didn’t face plant a Buick without a helmet :p

[pittpete]

2018 picture of Ben earlier this year..I'd say he was in pretty good shape
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/HUHdTKpmjSzEMmXVofZYR_zGFX4=/0x0:6653x4954/920x613/filters:focal(3471x1946:4535x3010):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/61018039/usa_today_11054199.0.jpg

[fordfixer]

2018 picture of Ben earlier this year..I'd say he was in pretty good shape
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/HUHdTKpmjSzEMmXVofZYR_zGFX4=/0x0:6653x4954/920x613/filters:focal(3471x1946:4535x3010):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/61018039/usa_today_11054199.0.jpg
Looks kinda square :p