Too Much Talent to Lose?? All on Tomlin??

[NorthCoast]

Maybe this will give you pause that the Steelers are too talented for their record and Tomlin is the main guy to blame.

Honestly, after reading this you have to wonder how the Steelers have remained competitive at all. The real question is who is responsible for the futile efforts to find talent?:

The Pittsburgh Steelers have a lot of issues, most of which have come to light over the past three games, all losses. Mike Tomlin can’t manage the clock and doesn’t take bad teams seriously, Ben Roethlisberger has made costly mistakes all season, and the Steelers linebacker play is at an all-time low.
But despite all of these undeniable truths, the Steelers win at least two, maybe all three of the last few games if they had done one thing better: acquire and develop defensive back talent, whether in the draft or free agency Kevin Colbert has consistently given him poor players to work with. Since Tomlin arrived in Pittsburgh, the Steelers have drafted 20 defensive backs, the best of which BY FAR has been William Gay, an average starter in his best years. Gay’s best season was a 3-pick campaign in 2014, which would feel like a Hall of Fame-level season for a Steelers defensive back right now.
The last time a Steelers defensive back finished with more than three interceptions in a season, the team was coincidentally in the Super Bowl, losing to the Green Bay Packers to finish the 2010 season. That year Troy Polamalu had seven picks (is that even allowed?), something that would require a literal act of God for the current Pittsburgh secondary to get as a group this season. In 13 games, the Steelers defensive backs have combined for four interceptions this season.
How did they get here? As I hinted before, it begins in the draft, where Colbert has tried every strategy on earth (except drafting good players) to get this thing right, but to no avail. At first he tried ignoring the position and relying on free agency and adequate starters to get by. From 2007-2014, Colbert spent exactly ZERO first or second round picks on a defensive back, and just two third rounders on the position group. The 11 players he did draft during that time?
2007: William Gay, Round 5
2008: Ryan Mundy, Round 7
2009: Keenan Lewis, Round 3/Joe Burnett, Round 7
2010: Crezdon Butler, Round 5
2011: Curtis Brown, Round 3/Cortez Allen, Round 4
2012: Terrence Frederick, Round 7
2013: Shamarko Thomas, Round 4/Terry Hawthorne, Round 5
2014: Shaq Richardson, Round 5
Go ahead. It’s ok to curse incessantly. How can one man be so incredibly bad at scouting defensive back talent? I truly do not know. It isn’t like Colbert has been a total train wreck as a general manager. He’s done some wonderful things with his offensive drafting, and even nabbed some defensive line talent, but his deficiencies in this area are so excruciating it has tarnished his entire Steelers legacy, fair or not.
Out of those 11 players, Gay was at times the only watchable Steelers cornerback, and he would have been the third-best corner on most other teams. Keenan Lewis showed promise, but the Steelers let him walk in free agency, where he went to New Orleans to impress before injuries cut short his career.
Also, don’t forget, not only did the team draft Cortez Allen, they gave him a long-term contract despite the fact he never did anything on the field to show he was a preferable starter. So the inability to scout goes beyond just the college ranks, but filters into NFL evaluations as well. We’ll get to that in a moment.
In 2015 Colbert clearly shifted gears, appropriately reacting to the fast-changing tides of NFL passing attacks that were taking his defense apart. He took three defensive backs that year, two in the first 60 picks the next year, and two each of the years after that. All of them currently suck.
2015: Senquez Golson, Round 2/Doran Grant, Round 3/Gerod Holliman, Round 7
2016: Artie Burns, Round 1/Sean Davis, Round 2
2017: Cameron Sutton, Round 3/Brian Allen, Round 5
2018: Terrell Edmunds, Round 1/Marcus Allen, Round 5
You can blame injuries for the Golson miss if you want, but he isn’t currently on a roster anywhere in the NFL and never stood out in preseason action either. He never played in a regular season game for Pittsburgh, while Grant and Holliman were cut after their first training camp as rookies. About as bad as it gets.
Burns has been horrible for the better part of three seasons now, and was finally relegated to the bench earlier this year. Sean Davis’ play has been bench-worthy for most of the past two years, but he remains in the lineup because the options behind him are somehow worse.
Cameron Sutton has been terrible when he’s out there, and now he can’t get on the field over Morgan Burnett, who has been laughably bad. He might be behind Burns on the depth chart, unfathomable as that may seem. Terrell Edmunds has been average at best, mostly bad, continuing the tradition of Steelers defensive backs who cannot find or make a play on the ball. To make matters worse, Edmunds is Pro Football Focus’ 70th-ranked safety (https://www.profootballfocus.com/tools), while Justin Reid and Jessie Bates, chosen well after him despite being clearly better, sit at 11th and 12th in the middle of outstanding rookie seasons.
And that is exactly how it has gone for Pittsburgh. They either weren’t aggressive enough to move up for the guy they wanted (William Jackson) or they sat at their draft spot and took a player clearly worse than others on the board. Reid, Bates, Byron Jones, Kevin Byard and others have been sitting there, screaming for consideration in Rounds 1 and 2, yet Colbert has consistently opted to go with a worse player. It’s a plight that has carried through the draft and into free agency as well.
Colbert’s big free agent signings/trades since Tomlin arrived include Mike Mitchell, Joe Haden, Coty Sensabaugh, Morgan Burnett, Brandon Boykin, Antwon Blake, Mike Hilton, J.J. Wilcox, Ross Cockrell, Justin Gilbert, Will Allen, Brice McCain and Ryan Clark.
Obviously you’re probably going to have a better hit rate with players who already have proven what they are in the NFL, but a shocking amount of these players – Sensabaugh, Burnett, Boykin, Blake, Wilcox, Cockrell, Allen, McCain, Gilbert – were bad or un-impactful for the most part. Mitchell and Haden he deserves credit for, as they are probably the only reason Pittsburgh wasn’t a complete train wreck the past couple seasons, but overall his moves have been totally uninspiring.
Last year, playing a deep slate of bad quarterbacks, the Steelers squeaked by a plethora of terrible teams and into a playoff spot. This year, the poor drafting and talent acquisition has caught up with them. Case Keenum, Phillip Rivers and Derek Carr have taken turns shredding all aspects of their defense when it matters most, and the Steelers have let several certain interceptions slip through their grasp that dramatically altered those outcomes.

It’s the clear evidence of a complete and utter failure by Colbert to find impactful defensive backs and Tomlin and his staff to develop the position when they do have something to work with. And in today’s NFL, with stopping opposing passing attacks and creating turnovers the two keys to defensive success, Pittsburgh has failed in incredible fashion, grabbing just six interceptions, tied for the second-lowest mark in the league.
As a result, the team’s playoff hopes are slipping away fast, and so is their window to win a Super Bowl.

<span style="color:#daa520;">
https://thedraftnetwork.com/2018/12/10/steelers-window-closing-due-to-mis-evaluation-of-defensive-backs/

[pittpete]

So what is the real question?
Are we that bad at picking talent or are we getting the wrong players to fit the scheme?
If we continually grab man corners and try to make them play a zone who's to blame?

[NorthCoast]

So what is the real question?
Are we that bad at picking talent or are we getting the wrong players to fit the scheme?
If we continually grab man corners and try to make them play a zone who's to blame?Did you read the list of draft picks? Scheme is immaterial. Is Burns a man or zone CB?... (hint, ...neither).

Few if any of these guys are even in the league after being cut. Twenty DBs picked and only two starters among them.

[SidSmythe]

The Steelers develop talent all over the board except DB.

Joe Haden came developed .... Sean Davis had a good yr. Perhaps Bradley will turn things around. I believe Carnell Lake was just bad at developing young players.

I believe blame goes all around .... but in a pass happy league you can't miss on DBs.

[Buzz]

Yes Colbert must shoulder some blame for the misses at DB, but the article ignores the fact that DBs are supposedly Tomlin's special area of expertise and he's had major input -- possibly more so than anyone else -- as to who the team has drafted at those positions over that span.

[Steelhere10]

Yes Colbert must shoulder some blame for the misses at DB, but the article ignores the fact that DBs are supposedly Tomlin's special area of expertise and he's had major input -- possibly more so than anyone else -- as to who the team has drafted at those positions over that span.

It don't matter, because you can't get sugar from ****. But Tomlin, Ben, Butler and others are as much to blame.

[Shawn]

On offense, I haven’t seen this much talent on that side of the ball since the Rams and Faulk. We have grossly underachieved. The article is correct about DB talent. But there is no excuse why this offense hasn’t dominated.

[Northern_Blitz]

On offense, I haven’t seen this much talent on that side of the ball since the Rams and Faulk. We have grossly underachieved. The article is correct about DB talent. But there is no excuse why this offense hasn’t dominated.

I had thought this too before looking at the stats.

We're:
4th in YPG and
4th in PPG

I'm not exactly sure what counts as dominant, but that is better than I thought we were before looking at the numbers.

I thought we would be better than we are, but I think that congress down to turnovers (like most things this year)

[NorthCoast]

The Steelers offense can move the ball against any team. The turnovers in scoring position were doubly damaging because it took points off the board and the defense often allowed the opponents to score.

[NorthCoast]

Yes Colbert must shoulder some blame for the misses at DB, but the article ignores the fact that DBs are supposedly Tomlin's special area of expertise and he's had major input -- possibly more so than anyone else -- as to who the team has drafted at those positions over that span.

Yes he was a DB coach for high a ranking unit. Not too difficult to do when you have players like Ronde Barber, John Lynch, in the backfield. But I also think those kind of DBs would not do well in the modern game.

[Steel Maniac]

Yes Colbert must shoulder some blame for the misses at DB, but the article ignores the fact that DBs are supposedly Tomlin's special area of expertise and he's had major input -- possibly more so than anyone else -- as to who the team has drafted at those positions over that span.

Exactly.....................

[Captain Lemming]

Yes he was a DB coach for high a ranking unit. Not too difficult to do when you have players like Ronde Barber, John Lynch, in the backfield. But I also think those kind of DBs would not do well in the modern game.

John Lynch was NEVER a great coverage safety.

Rhonde Barber was 4 year veteran with ZERO pro bowls (much less all pro) before Tomlin. He was no "Rod Woodson" can't miss Uber talent.

Barber went from obscure average player best known as "twin brother of Tiki" to all pro only AFTER his first year under Tomlin.

The idea that this overwhelming secondary talent "made" Tomlin is ridiculous.

It's akin to giving no props to our oline coach today.

[Steel Maniac]

None of that coaching of the secondary expertise came with him to Pittsburgh.

[Captain Lemming]

None of that coaching of the secondary expertise came with him to Pittsburgh.

Really Maniac?
Really?
What do the Steelers since 74 (that means MOST of Noll and ALL of the Cowher era) and the Buccaneers history have in common?
ZERO number one pass defenses without players who were coached by Mike Tomlin.

BOTH TEAMS have multiple number one pass defenses FEATURING players coached by Tomlin.

[Captain Lemming]

Wait....he did it with Cowhers players.....yeah he did.

You know what Cowher never did with "Cowhers players" (including BTW all time great corner Rod Woodson and great coverage Safety Lake)
Have a number one pass defense

[Captain Lemming]

Last year under Cowher we had the 20th ranked pass defense.

Tomlin year 1 we are 3rd
Tomlin year 2 we are number one in pass defense for the first time since our FIRST SUPERBOWL victory over the Vikings.
Yes.....I think that ability DID in fact come to Pittsburgh.

[Captain Lemming]

All that said, while Colbert is the biggest to blame, to the extent that Tomlin contributes he shares fault for the poor talent "acquisitions" of the era in the secondary.

Tomlins ability to "coach" secondary is undeniable.
His ability to "select" secondary talent is questionable.

But that issue predates Tomlin. Our early draft picks were horrid through the Cowher era too. If we hadnt jumped up for Troy (earlier than any Tomlin secondary pick) it would be a joke. People forget Woodson and Lake were "Nolls players" inherited by Cowher.

Cowhers early picks included guys like Chad Scott, Deon Figures and Scott Shields.

[Captain Lemming]

Something just occurred to me. It might explain alot.
Both camps might actually agree here.

I wonder if Tomlin has a bit of overconfidence in his ability to "coach up" very raw talent due to prior success thus the tenancy to ignore a players lack of proven "skills" thinking he can fix any player with "combine talent"?

[Northern_Blitz]

Something just occurred to me. It might explain alot.
Both camps might actually agree here.

I wonder if Tomlin has a bit of overconfidence in his ability to "coach up" very raw talent due to prior success thus the tenancy to ignore a players lack of proven "skills" thinking he can fix any player with "combine talent"?

I don't know if it's Tomlin, but our recent high picks have been more about SPARQ score than on field production.

But maybe that's a combination of picking lower (so we can't get both) and over correction after Jarvis Jones

[Iron City Inc.]

DB selections have been lacking that is obvious. Get ready though because I would venture a guess that we'll go db and corner to be more specific again with our 1 in Aprils draft. Since we need to upgrade more then 1 corner ( if Haden went down what do we have) we'll likely attain a 2nd cb perhaps as a f/a or a second draft pick used to try n help remedy the issue.

[Captain Lemming]

DB selections have been lacking that is obvious. Get ready though because I would venture a guess that we'll go db and corner to be more specific again with our 1 in Aprils draft. Since we need to upgrade more then 1 corner ( if Haden went down what do we have) we'll likely attain a 2nd cb perhaps as a f/a or a second draft pick used to try n help remedy the issue.

I say in view of the window for Ben and thanks to departure of "the greedy one who shall not be named" we have cash, we go all in on a FA corner acquisition to fix the position NOW rather than risk a miss or a project in the draft.

Then we can go BPA between another corner, safety, MLBer, and OLBer in the draft going for the most "cant miss" prospect available.

[Steel Maniac]

I say in view of the window for Ben and thanks to departure of "the greedy one who shall not be named" we have cash, we go all in on a FA corner acquisition to fix the position NOW rather than risk a miss or a project in the draft.

Then we can go BPA between another corner, safety, MLBer, and OLBer in the draft going for the most "cant miss" prospect available.

Captain, why are you being so logical? Using free agency on a major acquisition at the cornerback position?? I can't see it. But even so, who's going to coach him? Because the problem just isn't talent acquisition; it's coaching as well. Or lack thereof.

[pittpete]

Did you read the list of draft picks? Scheme is immaterial. Is Burns a man or zone CB?... (hint, ...neither).

Few if any of these guys are even in the league after being cut. Twenty DBs picked and only two starters among them.

Not sure why you say scheme is immaterial?
If Burns is a solid man DB but gets confused in a zone scheme i dont understand why you say this.
Also why would another team pickup up a guy that has underperformed in the wrong scheme to force him into another?
Its kind of like taking those 4-3 tweeners and hoping they can play OLB in a 3-4.

[pittpete]

The Steelers develop talent all over the board except DB.

Joe Haden came developed .... Sean Davis had a good yr. Perhaps Bradley will turn things around. I believe Carnell Lake was just bad at developing young players.

I believe blame goes all around .... but in a pass happy league you can't miss on DBs.

I respectfully disagree that Davis has had a good year.
He's average at best IMO.
Davis is tied for 18th in passes defended(7) for safeties
Davis has 1 INT on a duck thrown on a trick play by Hill last week
Has played the most snaps(979) so he's always on the field.
Im also sure he'd be up near the top in missed tackles also, but i cant find an exact stat.
Heres some proof though>>>
https://twitter.com/Alex_Kozora/statuses/1070383910645837826
Sean Davis missed tackles through first nine games: 8

Sean Davis missed tackles through last three games: 8

​Steelers Vs Saints Missed Tackles Report
https://steelersdepot.com/2018/12/steelers-vs-saints-missed-tackles-report/

[Steel Maniac]

Sean Davis hasn't been very good. That's something we've been talking about for weeks.

[NorthCoast]

Sean Davis hasn't been very good. That's something we've been talking about for weeks.I agree with you. And Burns is neither a good man nor zone CB. Watch him in man, can't locate the ball, can't get his head around. Steelers desperately need to revamp their evaluation process.
And for those that say it's coaching, the Steelers agreed with you when they jettisoned Lake. Gotta give Bradley at least the same amount of time that Lake got to try to turn things around.

[Eddie Spaghetti]

you most certainly don't have to give Bradley the same amount of time lake got. some of you guys act like this is some kind of a charity based organisation, it's not

its a results oriented business and the results this year did not meet the expectations.

people get fired for that in the real world all the damn time

[Oviedo]

you most certainly don't have to give Bradley the same amount of time lake got. some of you guys act like this is some kind of a charity based organisation, it's not

its a results oriented business and the results this year did not meet the expectations.

people get fired for that in the real world all the damn time


Agree on this. I was unsure of the Bradley hiring when it happened. We can do better there and OLB Coach

[pittpete]

Exactly, dont know how Porter still keeps his job?
Hopefully Butler goes with Porter also after the season...Even if we win the SB;)

[Buzz]

Agree on this. I was unsure of the Bradley hiring when it happened. We can do better there and OLB Coach

Don't forget Defensive Coordinator and Special Teams Coordinator ...

... and I'm starting to think Head Coach, too.

[Ernie]

John Lynch was NEVER a great coverage safety.

Rhonde Barber was 4 year veteran with ZERO pro bowls (much less all pro) before Tomlin. He was no "Rod Woodson" can't miss Uber talent.

Barber went from obscure average player best known as "twin brother of Tiki" to all pro only AFTER his first year under Tomlin.

The idea that this overwhelming secondary talent "made" Tomlin is ridiculous.

It's akin to giving no props to our oline coach today.

So what you are saying is... Tomlin may be better served as a DB coach?

[Ernie]

Captain, why are you being so logical? Using free agency on a major acquisition at the cornerback position?? I can't see it. But even so, who's going to coach him? Because the problem just isn't talent acquisition; it's coaching as well. Or lack thereof.

I honestly think that's what's happened to Burnett this year. He was real solid for GB... and known as a "Captain of the defense"... despite Clay Matthews taking most of the spotlight. Although he battled some injuries, he was also a team leader in tackles.

[Disco1981]

Since 2010 The Steelers have had more Pro Bowl players than any team in the NFL...In that span they have won 3 playoff games...Kaepernick has won 4

Let that sink in...We are not the Bills, Dolphins, 49'ers etc...So we are ok, competitive, in the mix every year...

Not good enough for me

[Steel Maniac]

Since 2010 The Steelers have had more Pro Bowl players than any team.in the NFL...In that soan they have won 3 playoff games...Kaepernick has won 4

Let that sink in...We are not the Bills, Dolphins, 49'ers etc...So we are ok, competitive, in the mix every year...

Not good enough for me

But we get to 500 or over every year in the regular season and that is good enough for a lot of posters around here. LOL

[Captain Lemming]

Captain, why are you being so logical? Using free agency on a major acquisition at the cornerback position?? I can't see it. But even so, who's going to coach him? Because the problem just isn't talent acquisition; it's coaching as well. Or lack thereof.

Who?
The only coach to coach a number 1 pass Steeler defense in over 40 years.

[NorthCoast]

you most certainly don't have to give Bradley the same amount of time lake got. some of you guys act like this is some kind of a charity based organisation, it's not

its a results oriented business and the results this year did not meet the expectations.

people get fired for that in the real world all the damn timeBurnett was new to the defense and on the injury list for almost half the season. Last season, he wasn't in the top 50 DBs for tackles, passes defensed, or interceptions. There is a reason why GB let him walk.
Davis was new to his position, taking bad angles, missing tackles. Edmunds was a rookie. It's easy to see why so many have been disappointed with their high expectations for what in reality is average talent.
But I also feel like this defense is only one star player away from being very good. If the Steelers can land a very good safety or LB, it could be enough to turn the entire unit around.

[Eddie Spaghetti]

I disagree completely. there is no way this defense, as constructed, is 1 player away

they have 1 average CB and nothing else

2 extremely average safeties from everything I have seen

no ILBs to even speak of

1 OLB and nothing else

solid DL

one player isn't fixing this mess. not only are they lacking impact players, they have no discernible depth at all. they are reaping what they have sown in terrible drafting of defensive prospects

[NJ-STEELER]

On offense, I haven’t seen this much talent on that side of the ball since the Rams and Faulk. We have grossly underachieved. The article is correct about DB talent. But there is no excuse why this offense hasn’t dominated.

there's a big question mark at running back. even with conner healthy

[pittpete]

there's a big question mark at running back. even with conner healthy

Really, how so?

[Steel Maniac]

there's a big question mark at running back. even with conner healthy

Conber is on the pro bowl.

[Mr.wizard]

The whole developing DB thing is a load of garbage, has anyone watched the NFL lately it's not like there is a lot of shutdown corners out there. The teams that do have very good corners didn't develop them, they drafted them and hit or they picked one up through trade or free agency.

[steelz09]

On offense, I haven’t seen this much talent on that side of the ball since the Rams and Faulk. We have grossly underachieved. The article is correct about DB talent. But there is no excuse why this offense hasn’t dominated.

That's what the NFL Network was saying after last year.... The Killer B's (AB, Ben and Bell) should go down in the record books for what they haven't accomplished (winning a SB).

That the triple B's and the rest of the offense has had as much talent as anyone else since the "greatest show on turf" Rams.

[Ernie]

there's a big question mark at running back. even with conner healthy

the pro bowl James Conner?

[NorthCoast]

That's what the NFL Network was saying after last year.... The Killer B's (AB, Ben and Bell) should go down in the record books for what they haven't accomplished (winning a SB).

That the triple B's and the rest of the offense has had as much talent as anyone else since the "greatest show on turf" Rams.
You're ignoring one half the roster. That half is hardly SB quality. They made Blake Bortles look like the reincarnation of Ken Stabler.

[Buzz]

You're ignoring one half the roster. That half is hardly SB quality. They made Blake Bortles look like the reincarnation of Ken Stabler.

But was it only due to lack of defensive talent? Or ar scheme, play-calling, and preparation on the part of the coaches to blame as well?

I believe with the right people running this defense, while it wouldn't be elite, they could manage to stop NO on a 3rd and 20 late in the game, and they could have done enough to get a win over the Jags last year.

[Northern_Blitz]

But was it only due to lack of defensive talent? Or ar scheme, play-calling, and preparation on the part of the coaches to blame as well?

I believe with the right people running this defense, while it wouldn't be elite, they could manage to stop NO on a 3rd and 20 late in the game, and they could have done enough to get a win over the Jags last year.

Is very hard to win games against good teams when you lose the turnover battle.

[NorthCoast]

But was it only due to lack of defensive talent? Or ar scheme, play-calling, and preparation on the part of the coaches to blame as well?

I believe with the right people running this defense, while it wouldn't be elite, they could manage to stop NO on a 3rd and 20 late in the game, and they could have done enough to get a win over the Jags last year.The problem is the talent (or lack of) impacts the playcalling. How many times did we hear they were simplifying things to help the defense? Plus, you are not likely to fool a QB like Brees. Whatever defense was called he would likely check to something else. Did you watch what Roethlisberger did to the Saints defense on the last drive? ... picked up a 4th and 15. How did they let that happen?

[NJ-STEELER]

Really, how so?

in comparison to the greatest show on turf offense.


if anything , the offense was a closer comparison last year to that rams offense with bell, Bryant

[Steel Maniac]

Uh , I know some of you may not remember but the Rams were #4 in defense that year. As usual, the offense got all the publicity but the defense and kickoff/ punt return team was awesome.

[Captain Lemming]

Since 2010 The Steelers have had more Pro Bowl players than any team in the NFL..

Pro bowl is a pure popularity contest.........Steelers Nation helped make that reality

[Captain Lemming]

On offense, I haven’t seen this much talent on that side of the ball since the Rams and Faulk. We have grossly underachieved. The article is correct about DB talent. But there is no excuse why this offense hasn’t dominated.

You act like it was a stinking dynasty Shawn.
The Rams were one weak tackle away from having ZERO rings in a loss to the huge underdog Titans.

What killed the Rams potential dynasty?

Year one of Brady Belichick.
I submit that the “greatest show on turf” would have zero SB wins if they came together just a year later.

[Captain Lemming]

Uh , I know some of you may not remember but the Rams were #4 in defense that year. As usual, the offense got all the publicity but the defense and kickoff/ punt return team was awesome.

Tru dat Maniac. It is like the Packers one SB win over us.
The difference in THAT team and all those Rogers teams that fell short is that it had the number 2 defense in the league.

[NorthCoast]

Tru dat Maniac. It is like the Packers one SB win over us.
The difference in THAT team and all those Rogers teams that fell short is that it had the number 2 defense in the league.

Reposting:


In the last 20 years the #1 scoring offense has won the Superbowl exactly 0 times.
The Steelers need to work on fixing the defense.

[tiproast]

You act like it was a stinking dynasty Shawn.
The Rams were one weak tackle away from having ZERO rings in a loss to the huge underdog Titans.

What killed the Rams potential dynasty?

Year one of Brady Belichick.
I submit that the “greatest show on turf” would have zero SB wins if they came together just a year later.
All true, but there's a huge upside to the Rams winning that Super Bowl.

It kept Jeff Fisher from getting a ring.

And that means that there's at least a semblance of karmic balance in the universe. :cool:

[Steel Maniac]

Reposting:

Boom............

[KYPITTFAN]

All his fault, no. All his responsibility , yes.

[Steel Maniac]

I’m watching Alabama dismantle Oklahoma and I’m envious of the way Alabama is so disciplined, with single minded focus; and so stable. A reflection of their coach.

How much a year , do you think it would take to lure Saban away from Alabama?

[Mr.wizard]

Saban has already failed in the NFL why would we want him? Saban works at Alabama because he has the most talented players in the country, not because he is some mastermind.

[Buzz]

Saban works at Alabama because he has the most talented players in the country, not because he is some mastermind.
Somebody ought to clue Alabama in to that; they could hire a no-name coach and do just as well since it's all about the talent, not the coaching.


Saban has already failed in the NFL why would we want him?
This is a good point. While you might appreciate Saban's coaching skill and team discipline, his style (throwing tantrums, going beserk on and berating players) didn't translate well to the pros. He's better off coaching in college and the Steelers are better off looking elsewhere.

[Steel Maniac]

Didn’t Billicheck first fail at Cleveland too?

[NorthCoast]

Younger fans won't remember, but even Steelers dynasty of the '70s needed occasional help to make the playoffs:

Even The Super Steelers Of The 70’s Needed Help Making The Playoffs From Time To Time
Posted on December 29, 2018 by Tony Defeo Standard

Judging by the title of this article, you probably think I’m going to recount all of the previous times the Steelers entered the final week or weeks of the regular season needing help from teams playing other teams in stadiums not occupied by the Steelers in-order to make the playoffs.

Sort of, but not really.

It is true that the 1989, 1993, 2005 and 2015 Steelers teams all needed help heading into the final regular season weekend, and they all got that help. But, then again, the 2000, 2009 and 2013 editions also needed other teams to be charitable, but the good will sadly wasn’t forthcoming (thank you, Ryan Succop).

Yeah, so while many are bullish on the new Cleveland Browns and their chances of going to Baltimore this Sunday and taking out the Ravens at M&T Bank Stadium (let’s not forget the Steelers have some business of their own against the Bengals at Heinz Field to take care of), Pittsburgh’s playoff chances are clearly hanging by the proverbial thread–and that is a precarious spot to be in.

Although, I will say this about the Browns: if any team is equipped mentally to perform this task, it’s them.
They’re not just some team that is used to barely finishing out of the playoffs–believe it or not, at 7-7-1, this is actually true for them. They’re likely not just another team looking forward to a tropical destination this January. They’re probably not even playing for pride–this is what veteran teams do. They’re a team full of youngsters who may actually be drunk on winning.

The Browns won a grand total of one game over the previous two seasons. These Browns are new to this whole winning thing, and I’m sure they’d like nothing more than to hold onto the feeling–even for just one more week. This is Cleveland’s Super Bowl. This is Cleveland’s chance to prove to the whole world that they’re a force to be reckoned with, both this Sunday and many future Sundays to come.

OK, that’s enough rationalizing for one article. Let’s get back to the task at hand: the 2018 Steelers need help this Sunday in-order to make the playoffs. How pathetic, right? Honest to God, this is the third time in the past six seasons Pittsburgh, despite the presences of studs like Ben Roethlisberger, Antonio Brown and Cam Heyward, has AGAIN found itself in this position. How can this keep happening?

I’ll tell you how: life in the NFL. This is nothing unique to the Steelers.
In fact, most teams and most fan bases need a hand up and a handout from time to time…even the Steelers of the 1970’s, arguably the greatest football dynasty of all time.

That’s right. The Super Steelers team featuring Hall of Famers Terry Bradshaw, Franco Harris, Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, Mike Webster, Joe Greene, Jack Ham, Jack Lambert and Mel Blount needed help making the playoffs.

In the middle of their run of four Super Bowl titles in a six year span, the Steelers actually needed the help of others in-order to keep their playoff streak that would eventually reach eight years straight between 1972-1979 from being interrupted.

While the nine-game winning streak to close out the 1976 regular season was legendary–the defense yielded a grand total of 28 points over that span as the team rebounded from a 1-4 start to begin the year–Pittsburgh wouldn’t have made the postseason and wouldn’t have had a chance to win a third-straight Super Bowl if the Raiders, the team’s biggest rival of the 1970’s, wouldn’t have defeated the Bengals in the penultimate game.

The Steelers were Oakland’s biggest obstacle to championship success at that time, and with an 11-1 record and nothing much to play for, it would have been easy to roll over and allow Cincinnati to seize the old AFC Central Division title. But to the Raiders credit, they took care of business, paving the way for a postseason rematch with Pittsburgh–a rematch in-which the Silver and Black came out victorious on the way to their first Lombardi trophy.

A year later, Pittsburgh entered its final regular season game needing a victory and, again, a Cincinnati loss in-order to make the playoffs. The Bengals were playing fellow AFC Central rivals, the Oilers. Unlike the Raiders a year earlier, Houston had absolutely nothing at stake and nothing to play for. A victory by the Bengals would improve their record to 9-5 and earn them a division title over Pittsburgh based on a tiebreaker.

To their credit, the Oilers took care of Cincinnati, and the Steelers were once again AFC Central Division champions and playoff bound.
You might not think it’s that big a deal that Pittsburgh almost missed the playoffs a couple of times back in the ’70’s. But, remember, the “Same Old Steelers” days of the 1960’s weren’t that far in the rear-view mirror.

Even though Dan Rooney was now running the team and not his father, owner Art Rooney Sr., the legendary lovable loser who took care of things for the better part of 40 miserable seasons, it may have been easy to panic and revert back to the old ways of doing business–for example, firing head coach Chuck Noll, who had just been sued by the Raiders George Atkinson for his “criminal element” comment, a comment that eventually led to Noll, under oath, admitting that Mel Blount and some other Steeler players were also part of that element.

You may also think I’m being a bit disingenuous with this article.
After all, only four teams made the playoffs from each conference in those days, and it was easier to miss out from time to time. True, but teams didn’t have to deal with free agency or a salary cap, either.

Point is, parity has been a part of the NFL since the days of Pete Rozelle, the legendary commissioner, and not even the Steelers of the 1970’s were immune to it.

It’s just plain hard to make the playoffs in the NFL, and even a dynasty needs some help from time to time.

<span style="color:#40e0d0;">
http://steelcurtainrising.com/2018/12/super-steelers-70s-help-making-playoffs-afc-central-raiders-bengals-oilers.html/

[Steel Maniac]

Saban has already failed in the NFL why would we want him? Saban works at Alabama because he has the most talented players in the country, not because he is some mastermind.

I think there’s more to it then that. Lol

[Ernie]

I think there’s more to it then that. Lol

And I wonder why he has the most talented players in the country? lol

[Oviedo]

Younger fans won't remember, but even Steelers dynasty of the '70s needed occasional help to make the playoffs:

Even The Super Steelers Of The 70’s Needed Help Making The Playoffs From Time To Time
Posted on December 29, 2018 by Tony Defeo Standard

Judging by the title of this article, you probably think I’m going to recount all of the previous times the Steelers entered the final week or weeks of the regular season needing help from teams playing other teams in stadiums not occupied by the Steelers in-order to make the playoffs.

Sort of, but not really.

It is true that the 1989, 1993, 2005 and 2015 Steelers teams all needed help heading into the final regular season weekend, and they all got that help. But, then again, the 2000, 2009 and 2013 editions also needed other teams to be charitable, but the good will sadly wasn’t forthcoming (thank you, Ryan Succop).

Yeah, so while many are bullish on the new Cleveland Browns and their chances of going to Baltimore this Sunday and taking out the Ravens at M&T Bank Stadium (let’s not forget the Steelers have some business of their own against the Bengals at Heinz Field to take care of), Pittsburgh’s playoff chances are clearly hanging by the proverbial thread–and that is a precarious spot to be in.

Although, I will say this about the Browns: if any team is equipped mentally to perform this task, it’s them.
They’re not just some team that is used to barely finishing out of the playoffs–believe it or not, at 7-7-1, this is actually true for them. They’re likely not just another team looking forward to a tropical destination this January. They’re probably not even playing for pride–this is what veteran teams do. They’re a team full of youngsters who may actually be drunk on winning.

The Browns won a grand total of one game over the previous two seasons. These Browns are new to this whole winning thing, and I’m sure they’d like nothing more than to hold onto the feeling–even for just one more week. This is Cleveland’s Super Bowl. This is Cleveland’s chance to prove to the whole world that they’re a force to be reckoned with, both this Sunday and many future Sundays to come.

OK, that’s enough rationalizing for one article. Let’s get back to the task at hand: the 2018 Steelers need help this Sunday in-order to make the playoffs. How pathetic, right? Honest to God, this is the third time in the past six seasons Pittsburgh, despite the presences of studs like Ben Roethlisberger, Antonio Brown and Cam Heyward, has AGAIN found itself in this position. How can this keep happening?

I’ll tell you how: life in the NFL. This is nothing unique to the Steelers.
In fact, most teams and most fan bases need a hand up and a handout from time to time…even the Steelers of the 1970’s, arguably the greatest football dynasty of all time.

That’s right. The Super Steelers team featuring Hall of Famers Terry Bradshaw, Franco Harris, Lynn Swann, John Stallworth, Mike Webster, Joe Greene, Jack Ham, Jack Lambert and Mel Blount needed help making the playoffs.

In the middle of their run of four Super Bowl titles in a six year span, the Steelers actually needed the help of others in-order to keep their playoff streak that would eventually reach eight years straight between 1972-1979 from being interrupted.

While the nine-game winning streak to close out the 1976 regular season was legendary–the defense yielded a grand total of 28 points over that span as the team rebounded from a 1-4 start to begin the year–Pittsburgh wouldn’t have made the postseason and wouldn’t have had a chance to win a third-straight Super Bowl if the Raiders, the team’s biggest rival of the 1970’s, wouldn’t have defeated the Bengals in the penultimate game.

The Steelers were Oakland’s biggest obstacle to championship success at that time, and with an 11-1 record and nothing much to play for, it would have been easy to roll over and allow Cincinnati to seize the old AFC Central Division title. But to the Raiders credit, they took care of business, paving the way for a postseason rematch with Pittsburgh–a rematch in-which the Silver and Black came out victorious on the way to their first Lombardi trophy.

A year later, Pittsburgh entered its final regular season game needing a victory and, again, a Cincinnati loss in-order to make the playoffs. The Bengals were playing fellow AFC Central rivals, the Oilers. Unlike the Raiders a year earlier, Houston had absolutely nothing at stake and nothing to play for. A victory by the Bengals would improve their record to 9-5 and earn them a division title over Pittsburgh based on a tiebreaker.

To their credit, the Oilers took care of Cincinnati, and the Steelers were once again AFC Central Division champions and playoff bound.
You might not think it’s that big a deal that Pittsburgh almost missed the playoffs a couple of times back in the ’70’s. But, remember, the “Same Old Steelers” days of the 1960’s weren’t that far in the rear-view mirror.

Even though Dan Rooney was now running the team and not his father, owner Art Rooney Sr., the legendary lovable loser who took care of things for the better part of 40 miserable seasons, it may have been easy to panic and revert back to the old ways of doing business–for example, firing head coach Chuck Noll, who had just been sued by the Raiders George Atkinson for his “criminal element” comment, a comment that eventually led to Noll, under oath, admitting that Mel Blount and some other Steeler players were also part of that element.

You may also think I’m being a bit disingenuous with this article.
After all, only four teams made the playoffs from each conference in those days, and it was easier to miss out from time to time. True, but teams didn’t have to deal with free agency or a salary cap, either.

Point is, parity has been a part of the NFL since the days of Pete Rozelle, the legendary commissioner, and not even the Steelers of the 1970’s were immune to it.

It’s just plain hard to make the playoffs in the NFL, and even a dynasty needs some help from time to time.

<span style="color:#40e0d0;">
http://steelcurtainrising.com/2018/12/super-steelers-70s-help-making-playoffs-afc-central-raiders-bengals-oilers.html/

I remember all the above but most of this rhetoric isnt about making the playoffs. This is just the continuing hatred of Tomlin that has continued for a decade. Every success is discounted and every struggle is magnified. Collective failures this season make one person the intellectually lazy target versus the deeper analysis of multiple causes for blame

Tomlin doesnt miss game winning field goals, Tomlin doesnt throw ill timed and multiple INTs, Tomlin doesn't miss tackles. Most of the issues that got us to where we are occurred due to player performance.

No matter how well prepared if players don't execute cant blame the head coach

[Ernie]

I remember all the above but most of this rhetoric isnt about making the playoffs. This is just the continuing hatred of Tomlin that has continued for a decade. Every success is discounted and every struggle is magnified. Collective failures this season make one person the intellectually lazy target versus the deeper analysis of multiple causes for blame

Tomlin doesnt miss game winning field goals, Tomlin doesnt throw ill timed and multiple INTs, Tomlin doesn't miss tackles. Most of the issues that got us to where we are occurred due to player performance.

No matter how well prepared if players don't execute cant blame the head coach

And that's where a big part of the problem lies Ovi... Tomlin's teams just aren't that well prepared. My wanting Tomlin gone has absolutely zero to do with any so called personal feelings of him... which, by the way, I happen to think he's a model citizen and great ambassador for the NFL.

Want proof of my first statement? For starters...Butler thinks Tyler Eifert is active today lol

[Oviedo]

And that's where a big part of the problem lies Ovi... Tomlin's teams just aren't that well prepared. My wanting Tomlin gone has absolutely zero to do with any so called personal feelings of him... which, by the way, I happen to think he's a model citizen and great ambassador for the NFL.

Want proof of my first statement? For starters...Butler thinks Tyler Eifert is active today lol

I never said changes at coordinators or other position coaches don't need to be made. I was never 100% all in on Butler. I always stated we needed to get further away from what LeBeau had us doing. I still think we are trying to make the LeBeau system that was failing work. I was pleased with the increase in sacks and aggressive play but Butler hasn't got the defense to where it needs to be. I am OK with him going along with Porter and Bradley.

The problem with firing the head coach is you create more turmoil and instability because now you are replacing and entire coaching staff, schemes, etc. Plus you have to factor in how the new coach would work with Colbert. Does it become contentious and a battle for power. Lots more can go wrong when you let a successful head coach go because of a down season and generally unrealistic expectations on some fans.

Like I said, I think Tomlin does exactly what the Rooney's want him to do. Maintain higher than the standard for performance in the league, high character and stability leading the team, always a factor in the chase for the Super Bowl.

[Ernie]

I never said changes at coordinators or other position coaches don't need to be made. I was never 100% all in on Butler. I always stated we needed to get further away from what LeBeau had us doing. I still think we are trying to make the LeBeau system that was failing work. I was pleased with the increase in sacks and aggressive play but Butler hasn't got the defense to where it needs to be. I am OK with him going along with Porter and Bradley.

The problem with firing the head coach is you create more turmoil and instability because now you are replacing and entire coaching staff, schemes, etc. Plus you have to factor in how the new coach would work with Colbert. Does it become contentious and a battle for power. Lots more can go wrong when you let a successful head coach go because of a down season and generally unrealistic expectations on some fans.

Like I said, I think Tomlin does exactly what the Rooney's want him to do. Maintain higher than the standard for performance in the league, high character and stability leading the team, always a factor in the chase for the Super Bowl.

There are lots of coaches out there who would do all of those things... working well with Colbert, high character, stability leading the team.... etc etc.

while improving on some of Tomlin's glaring weaknesses (having control of the locker room, clock/game management etc.). We need a real hard nosed guy to sharpen the edge of this so called sword. Do you think Cowher would have let his guys play on their cell phones at half time? You speak of Cowher having some losing seasons... but, unlike Tomlin.. he never had a franchise HOF QB.... nuff said about that.

[Northern_Blitz]

And that's where a big part of the problem lies Ovi... Tomlin's teams just aren't that well prepared. My wanting Tomlin gone has absolutely zero to do with any so called personal feelings of him... which, by the way, I happen to think he's a model citizen and great ambassador for the NFL.

Want proof of my first statement? For starters...Butler thinks Tyler Eifert is active today lol

Can you support that idea that turnovers are (i) controlled by coaches and / or (2) certain coaches have repeatable turnover numbers?

My guess is that turnovers are low probability events with reasonable amount of randomness. I'd also guess that Tomlin has generally had teams with few turnovers and that this year is an outlier with the number of fumbles we've had.

I'd probably say that having a different coach wouldn't have affected the field goals either. Kickers seem to be like goalies and their performance is more than a little bit of voodoo.

[Ernie]

Can you support that idea that turnovers are (i) controlled by coaches and / or (2) certain coaches have repeatable turnover numbers?

My guess is that turnovers are low probability events with reasonable amount of randomness. I'd also guess that Tomlin has generally had teams with few turnovers and that this year is an outlier with the number of fumbles we've had.

I'd probably say that having a different coach wouldn't have affected the field goals either. Kickers seem to be like goalies and their performance is more than a little bit of voodoo.

I'm guessing you really think you've got me stumped on this one... nice try... lol

Turnovers are a part of the game no doubt. A big reason why we don't have more turnovers on the defensive side of the ball... is that we tend not to contest balls as we should (often times leaving guys wide open). On the other side of the ball... we tend to throw it 50 plus times a game... which, also tends itself to increased turnovers. I attribute lack of coaching on the defensive side of the ball.. and poor offensive balance (run/pass ratio) to part of the reason why the turnover margin is what it is.

[Steel Maniac]

And that's where a big part of the problem lies Ovi... Tomlin's teams just aren't that well prepared. My wanting Tomlin gone has absolutely zero to do with any so called personal feelings of him... which, by the way, I happen to think he's a model citizen and great ambassador for the NFL.

Want proof of my first statement? For starters...Butler thinks Tyler Eifert is active today lol

I second what Ernie says. I’m tired of people implying that people don’t like Tomlin because of his race. The team has underachieved the last 6 years in the playoffs. The team is undisciplined and has been stated by former players ( Harrison) and team actions ( AB video taping player only meetings & players using cell phones during games). None of these things has to do with race.

[Steel Maniac]

Using the turnover excuse is not being accurate enough...

Go through the last six years; when has this defense ever been a turnover generating machine under LeBeau or Butler? That’s been one of the things about this defense for years.

As far as the offense turnovers, we had first and goal on the broncos 2 yard line and choose to pass on all three plays before Ben threw the pick. That’s just one example. Down the stretch we pass way too much and didn’t run a balanced offense. We lost to the worse team in the league ( at the time) so there is no defense. There just isn’t.

[Steel Maniac]

There are lots of coaches out there who would do all of those things... working well with Colbert, high character, stability leading the team.... etc etc.

while improving on some of Tomlin's glaring weaknesses (having control of the locker room, clock/game management etc.). We need a real hard nosed guy to sharpen the edge of this so called sword. Do you think Cowher would have let his guys play on their cell phones at half time? You speak of Cowher having some losing seasons... but, unlike Tomlin.. he never had a franchise HOF QB.... nuff said about that. Thank you Ernie.

[Mr.wizard]

And I wonder why he has the most talented players in the country? lol

Because Alabama is a school that the NFL scouts eyes are on, so the top recruits want to play there. The reason he didn't win in the NFL is because he couldn't recruit, he couldn't walk on the field with the best players every week.

[Steel Maniac]

If Cowher had Ben his entire tenure like Tomlin has had, Cowher would have one at least one more Super Bowl. Cowher was a way better coach then Tomlin. Tomlin is not in Cowhers zip code.

[NorthCoast]

I second what Ernie says. I’m tired of people implying that people don’t like Tomlin because of his race. The team has underachieved the last 6 years in the playoffs. The team is undisciplined and has been stated by former players ( Harrison) and team actions ( AB video taping player only meetings & players using cell phones during games). None of these things has to do with race.
You continue to overstate 'underachieving' team. Take a closer look at the state of the team when the playoffs arrived in each of the last 6 years.

2017 - lost the QB of the defense in the last quarter of the season; never found a replacement on the roster (Sean Spence off the couch to replace him... good grief)

2016 - beat MIA; beat KC; lost to NE

2015 - no L Bell (1/3 of the offense gone); Toussaint as RB (he ain't no LBell); lost to DEN in Div round

2014 - no L Bell; Josh Harris & Ben Tate share RB.... 'nough said; lost to BAL in Wildcard

2013 - this is one year you could argue they underachieved

2012 - Todd Haley's first season as OC; averaged 19 pts/gm in their losses

[RuthlessBurgher]

If Cowher had Ben his entire tenure like Tomlin has had, Cowher would have one at least one more Super Bowl. Cowher was a way better coach then Tomlin. Tomlin is not in Cowhers zip code.

Right now, neither Cowher nor Tomlin would be Canton bound. They could both potentially be nominated and discussed in the voters' room, but neither would be enshrined as things stand at this point. Both are "Hall of Very Good" types as opposed to true "Hall of Fame" coaching careers right now. To say one of these guys is not in the other's zip code, though, is disingenuous.

[Steel Maniac]

One coach has had a hall of fame qb his entire tenure...

The other had a hall of fame qb for only 3 seasons....

Yet, the later won just as many Super Bowls. And made Super Bowl appearances with Neil O’Donnell. Pretty clear who the better coach is.

[Northern_Blitz]

If Cowher had Ben his entire tenure like Tomlin has had, Cowher would have one at least one more Super Bowl. Cowher was a way better coach then Tomlin. Tomlin is not in Cowhers zip code.

Evidence?

Maybe if Tomlin had Cowher's D or played in an era where 3 yards and a cloud of dust was a viable strategy, he would have done better than Cowher.

There is no way to know. But Tomlin and Cowher both did very well relative to their peers.

[Northern_Blitz]

One coach has had a hall of fame qb his entire tenure...

The other had a hall of fame qb for only 3 seasons....

Yet, the later won just as many Super Bowls. And made Super Bowl appearances with Neil O’Donnell. Pretty clear who the better coach is.

We've had this discussion before.

Cowher chose D over QB and won when he had a great QB on a rookie deal (that's the easiest way to win in the NFL).

Tomlin also won when Ben was at the tail end of his rookie deal.

No one but NE has been dominant over a long stretch with a franchise QB on a market level deal. Holding this as the expectation isn't reasonable.

[Ernie]

Who's fault is it that Tomlin doesn't have Cowher's Defenses?

Let me answer that for you.... D.) All of the above (including Tomlin).

[steelz09]

Who's fault is it that Tomlin doesn't have Cowher's Defenses?

Let me answer that for you.... D.) All of the above (including Tomlin).

What do you mean? 6 straight 1st round picks and numerous other 2nd and 3rd round picks isn't enough to build a competent (not even good) defense especially when that is your HC's speciality?

[Ernie]

Exactly... the Tomlin club will blame it all on Colbert... but we know there's a hell of a lot more to it than that.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Who's fault is it that Tomlin doesn't have Cowher's Defenses?

Let me answer that for you.... D.) All of the above (including Tomlin).

On the other hand...

Whose fault is it that Cowher didn't have a Tomlin level offense?

[Ernie]

On the other hand...

Whose fault is it that Cowher didn't have a Tomlin level offense?

He was a franchise QB away from having it.

[Northern_Blitz]

One coach has had a hall of fame qb his entire tenure...

The other had a hall of fame qb for only 3 seasons....

Yet, the later won just as many Super Bowls. And made Super Bowl appearances with Neil O’Donnell. Pretty clear who the better coach is.

We've had this discussion before.

Cowher chose D over QB and won when he had a great QB on a rookie deal (that's the easiest way to win in the NFL).

Tomlin also won when Ben was at the tail end of his rookie deal.

No one but NE has been dominant over a long stretch with a franchise QB on a market level deal. Holding this as the expectation isn't reasonable.

[Ernie]

Give Tomlin Kordell Stewart or Mike Tomczak and see how many games he wins lol

[NorthCoast]

Exactly... the Tomlin club will blame it all on Colbert... but we know there's a hell of a lot more to it than that.
It's never all on one guy. Look at what happened in GB. Drafted poorly, couldn't develop talent, HC/QB arguing... exit HC and GM.

[RuthlessBurgher]

He was a franchise QB away from having it.

Makes sense that he wanted to draft guard Shawn Andrews rather than Ben Roethlisberger, eh?

[NorthCoast]

Give Tomlin Kordell Stewart or Mike Tomczak and see how many games he wins lolCowher didn't have to deal with free agency and rappin RBs that wanted paid.

[Ernie]

Makes sense that he wanted to draft guard Shawn Andrews rather than Ben Roethlisberger, eh?

Fair point... but that doesn't explain why we didn't have a franchise QB from 1992 until 2004.

[Northern_Blitz]

It would have also been interesting to see Cowher at a time where there wasn't a huge market inefficiency on OLB / DE tweeners, or a time where you needed rookies to contribute early in their careers.

But no one remembers these things. And those calling for Tomlin's job will be saying how the next coach is way worse than Tomlin after he's gone

[Ernie]

Cowher didn't have to deal with free agency and rappin RBs that wanted paid.

Every other team in the league has to also.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Give Tomlin Kordell Stewart or Mike Tomczak and see how many games he wins lol

Landry Jones' record as a starter under Tomlin was 3-2. Charlie Batch was 3-3 as a starter under Tomlin. Byron Leftwich was 0-1 under Tomlin as a starter.

So for those of you who love to bring up Tomlin's above .500 streak, it looks like he's got a .500 record without Ben (3-3) unless I'm missing someone.

[Ernie]

It would have also been interesting to see Cowher at a time where there wasn't a huge market inefficiency on OLB / DE tweeners, or a time where you needed rookies to contribute early in their careers.

But no one remembers these things. And those calling for Tomlin's job will be saying how the next coach is way worse than Tomlin after he's gone

That's a very bold prediction... I, for one... tend to think an offense loaded with Pro bowlers..and a defense loaded with 1st and 2nd round picks... can do better than a .500 record. I guess time will tell.

[Ernie]

Landry Jones' record as a starter under Tomlin was 3-2. Charlie Batch was 3-3 as a starter under Tomlin. Byron Leftwich was 0-1 under Tomlin as a starter.

So for those of you who love to bring up Tomlin's above .500 streak, it looks like he's got a .500 record without Ben (3-3) unless I'm missing someone.

You say that like he accomplished something lol Was Cowher's career record above .500?

[Ernie]

Cowher has the highest win percentage in steelers coaching history...and he did it with a few garbage qbs and a rookie game manager for 90+ percent of his career.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Cowher has the highest win percentage in steelers coaching history...and he did it with a few garbage qbs and a rookie game manager for 90+ percent of his career.

For the record:
Tomlin's win percentage is .643
Cowher's win percentage is .619
Noll's win percentage is .572

[Steel Maniac]

It would have also been interesting to see Cowher at a time where there wasn't a huge market inefficiency on OLB / DE tweeners, or a time where you needed rookies to contribute early in their careers.

But no one remembers these things. And those calling for Tomlin's job will be saying how the next coach is way worse than Tomlin after he's gone


Dude, with no franchise qb, there will be rough times ahead regardless of who’s coaching.

[Ernie]

For the record:
Tomlin's win percentage is .643
Cowher's win percentage is .619
Noll's win percentage is .572

I stand corrected then.

You also stated that Tomlin was a .500 coach without Ben... which leads me to believe Tomlin is a career .500 coach with the types of QB's that Cowher had.

[Ernie]

Dude, with no franchise qb, there will be rough times ahead regardless of who’s coaching.

Unless you are a team like the Ravens... Browns, etc who can actually draft well on the defensive side of the ball.. and coach up the players you have...then you can win with Rookie QBs.

[Steel Maniac]

Ernie,

There’s no point arguing with Ruth. The stuff hes saying today makes no sense.
Cowher only had a franchise qb for 3 years. And in those 3 years , he accomplished everything that Tomlin has accomplished his entire career.

[Steel Maniac]

Unless you are a team like the Ravens... Browns, etc who can actually draft well on the defensive side of the ball.. and coach up the players you have...then you can win with Rookie QBs.


Most likely we will struggle thou. And with no franchise qb, that’s understandable.

[Ernie]

Most likely we will struggle thou. And with no franchise qb, that’s understandable.

Oh I agree... with this coaching staff... we are likely in for some lean times.

[BURGH86STEEL]

Unless you are a team like the Ravens... Browns, etc who can actually draft well on the defensive side of the ball.. and coach up the players you have...then you can win with Rookie QBs.

Huh? The Browns had a leg up during the draft on just about every team in the league and couldn't produce a winner.

The Ravens and Steelers success is pretty comparable but the Steelers have an edge in terms of winning over the past several seasons.

The Steelers were a better statistical defense than the Browns this year. The Ravens have the edge on the Steelers this year. Pointless to even mention the Browns.

The 2017 Steelers defense was better than the Ravens and Browns statistically. 2016 Ravens defense was slightly better. 2015 The Steelers were better in some areas than the Ravens .

[Ernie]

Huh? The Browns had a leg up during the draft on just about every team in the league and couldn't produce a winner.

The Ravens and Steelers success is pretty comparable but the Steelers have an edge in terms of winning over the past several seasons.

The Steelers were a better statistical defense than the Browns this year. The Ravens have the edge on the Steelers this year. Pointless to even mention the Browns.

The 2017 Steelers defense was better than the Ravens and Browns statistically. 2016 Ravens defense was slightly better. 2015 The Steelers were better in some areas than the Ravens .

My point was that you can still win with a rookie qb if you do a lot of other things well. Sorry you missed that. My point has nothing to do with where the Browns have drafted the last several years.

[Steel Maniac]

Building our team up and then having a solid team in place for a rookie qb is always ideal. Just like we had for Ben. But remember, we had a coach then that could build an entire team up. Now, we’ve got a Charleton who can’t even live up to his supposed expertise which was the basis for his hire.

We are in for rough times after Ben retires; regardless. I’m ready to embrace those rough waters.

[BURGH86STEEL]

My point was that you can still win with a rookie qb if you do a lot of other things well. Sorry you missed that. My point has nothing to do with where the Browns have drafted the last several years. You mentioned something about drafting well right? As if to take another shot at the Steelers.

Teams can win with rookies QB's if those QB's limit mistakes. Turn the ball over and it's an entirely different discussion. Our QB and players didn't do a good enough job taking care of the football this season. As a result, the Steelers are hanging on by a thread.

Don't sit here and act like the Ravens and Browns have monster records. 2 of the 3 teams will miss the playoffs.

I have a hard time understanding why some fans are so down on the Steeler's organization???

[Ernie]

You mentioned something about drafting well right? As if to take another shot at the Steelers.

Teams can win with rookies QB's if those QB's limit mistakes. Turn the ball over and it's an entirely different discussion. Our QB and players didn't do a good enough job taking care of the football this season. As a result, the Steelers are hanging on by a thread.

Don't sit here and act like the Ravens and Browns have monster records. 2 of the 3 teams will miss the playoffs.

I have a hard time understanding why some fans are so down on the Steeler's organization???

I was referring to the defensive side of the ball. If you call Jarvis Jones, Artie Burns, Senquez Golsen, or even Bud Dupree "Drafting Well"... you may need to recalibrate your draft radar lol

[BURGH86STEEL]

Building our team up and then having a solid team in place for a rookie qb is always ideal. Just like we had for Ben. But remember, we had a coach then that could build an entire team up. Now, we’ve got a Charleton who can’t even live up to his supposed expertise which was the basis for his hire.

We are in for rough times after Ben retires; regardless. I’m ready to embrace those rough waters.

Seems you believe we are in rough waters now. At some point every team will go through rough waters. That's the nature of sports.

[BURGH86STEEL]

I was referring to the defensive side of the ball. If you call Jarvis Jones, Artie Burns, Senquez Golsen, or even Bud Dupree "Drafting Well"... you may need to recalibrate your draft radar lol
Yeah how about the good picks the Steelers had? Every team had players that didn't work out. Have you ever seen a team that gets every draft pick right? I haven't. I

What is most important is the Steelers were able to build TEAMS that were able to make the playoffs and compete for the Superbowl. Unfortunately some people are to busy complaining about other things to see that.

[Steel Maniac]

Seems you believe we are in rough waters now. At some point every team will go through rough waters. That's the nature of sports.

We are in rough waters now because of a coach who’s wasted away years of not putting a creditable defense with a good enough offense.

The other future rough waters will be because of lack of talent at the qb position. Big difference.

[BURGH86STEEL]

We are in rough waters now because of a coach who’s wasted away years of not putting a creditable defense with a good enough offense.

The other future rough waters will be because of lack of talent at the qb position. Big difference.

Extremely difficult to have a reasonable discussion with someone that blames everything on the HC.

[Northern_Blitz]

For the record:
Tomlin's win percentage is .643
Cowher's win percentage is .619
Noll's win percentage is .572

But don't put facts stand in the way of your argument

[Northern_Blitz]

Dude, with no franchise qb, there will be rough times ahead regardless of who’s coaching.

Yep.

I guess the guys news is that the league wants to keep changing the rules so that every QB can be amazing.

[Ernie]

What the hell boys... we are about to go down by 2 scores to a 6-9 bengals team... with the season potentially on the line... and you want to brag about how great Tomlin is.. lol

[Terrapin]

But don't put facts stand in the way of your argument

you guys must really pump yourselves over regular season records huh?

[Northern_Blitz]

That's a very bold prediction... I, for one... tend to think an offense loaded with Pro bowlers..and a defense loaded with 1st and 2nd round picks... can do better than a .500 record. I guess time will tell.

People on the Trib board hated Cower at the end of his time (until the SB win) . Now they revere him apparently.

They are basically the same coach.

[Terrapin]

What the hell boys... we are about to go down by 2 scores to a 6-9 bengals team... with the season potentially on the line... and you want to brag about how great Tomlin is.. lol

Dude, he's never had a losing season! Don't you know that all that matters is regular season records?

[Ernie]

Its a good thing for Tomlin that the Ravens look to be putting the Browns away...

His seat may get that much hotter if the Browns would have won... while we lose to a bunch of back ups off a 6-9 team.

[Northern_Blitz]

you guys must really pump yourselves over regular season records huh?

No its just the argument was that Cowher had the best record of all Steelers coaches.

That is factually incorrect.

Like many of the anti Tomlin arguments

[Ernie]

No its just the argument was that Cowher had the best record of all Steelers coaches.

That is factually incorrect.

Like many of the anti Tomlin arguments

Yea I was off on that one... BTW... what's Tomlin's record with QB's not named Big Ben? That should give you a more accurate comparison between he and Cowher.

[Terrapin]

No its just the argument was that Cowher had the best record of all Steelers coaches.

That is factually incorrect.

Like many of the anti Tomlin arguments

Noll has 4 super bowls
Cowher never had a legit QB
Tomlin was handed a HOF QB, a great defense, and a loaded roster. He won 1 SB. Congrats. He's drastically underachieved every other season. He sucks. He's always sucked. And there's only logical reason why his job's not in jeopardy

[NorthCoast]

Noll has 4 super bowls
Cowher never had a legit QB
Tomlin was handed a HOF QB, a great defense, and a loaded roster. He won 1 SB. Congrats. He's drastically underachieved every other season. He sucks. He's always sucked. And there's only logical reason why his job's not in jeopardyLoaded roster with Josh Harris and Toussaint leading the way in the playoffs.... right.

[Northern_Blitz]

Yea I was off on that one... BTW... what's Tomlin's record with QB's not named Big Ben? That should give you a more accurate comparison between he and Cowher.

Not a fair comparison yet.

Ben has always counted against the cap under Cowher. My guess is that most coaches don't do all that well with backup QBs.

But you already know that argument isn't legit, right?

[Ernie]

you're right its not legit.

[Terrapin]

Not a fair comparison yet.

Ben has always counted against the cap under Cowher. My guess is that most coaches don't do all that well with backup QBs.

But you already know that argument isn't legit, right?

You really want to compare Ben to guys Cowher had?

[Steel Maniac]

Noll has 4 super bowls
Cowher never had a legit QB
Tomlin was handed a HOF QB, a great defense, and a loaded roster. He won 1 SB. Congrats. He's drastically underachieved every other season. He sucks. He's always sucked. And there's only logical reason why his job's not in jeopardy

Boom...... one of the best post of the year.

[Ernie]

Loaded roster with Josh Harris and Toussaint leading the way in the playoffs.... right.

that's one position that can be managed by committee.. and on a budget lol..

[Steel Maniac]

Hey, on a positive note, we found a reliable kicker today. :)

[KYPITTFAN]

He hit the bar on one and can't kick off to the end zone. His field goal range is about 45 yards. There's a reason he was not playing.



Hey, on a positive note, we found a reliable kicker today. :)

[Steel Maniac]

He hit the bar on one and can't kick off to the end zone. His field goal range is about 45 yards. There's a reason he was not playing.

Hey, work with me here. I’m grasping at straws. Lol

[Ghost]

Either the Bos recovers from the groin injury or they get a new kickers for 2019. The guy today was a three day patch. If you can’t kick it to the end zone then get back to stocking shelves.

[Steel Maniac]

Ghost has spoken. Begone nave.

[winwithd]

If we were to switch special teams rooms with the Rats, do we win the North by about 4 games?

[squidkid]

seems like i recall several pregame guys state that the steelers had way too much talent not to make the playoffs
they even said the team has the attitude they can just turn it on when they want to
even said they have underachieved

[Starlifter]

I saw this quote by Doug Marrone out of Jax today and thought it was appropriate.

For all those that want to give the coaches a pass when players commit penalties, stream on facebook from the locker room, don't execute their assignments with precision, bash each other on social media, introduce never ending drama to the locker room etc.......it's interesting to see this point of view from an actual HC.

''We have a ways to go, and that starts with me,'' Marrone said. ''When you sit here and ask about the culture and what it may be, maybe it's not, that falls on me. I did not do a good job there, period. That's one of the things I'm hard on myself, but I'm also honest with myself.

''At the end of the day, we can talk about this player or that player and the locker room and all of that. That's all on me. That's all on me.''

I agree with Coach Marrone.

It's on Tomlin.

[Captain Lemming]

Noll has 4 super bowls
Cowher never had a legit QB
Tomlin was handed a HOF QB, a great defense, and a loaded roster. He won 1 SB. Congrats. He's drastically underachieved every other season. He sucks. He's always sucked. And there's only logical reason why his job's not in jeopardy

Why did Cowher never have a legit QB?

Same reason Ben was almost never a Steeler.

[squidkid]

Why did Cowher never have a legit QB?


the previous coach didnt draft one for him AND because he was ALWAYS drafting BPA;)

[Steel Maniac]

Why did Cowher never have a legit QB?

Same reason Ben was almost never a Steeler.

Naaaw Cap. I have to disagree my friend on this one. Of course we know that Cowher didn't want to take Ben. But remember, at that point, Cowher had grown accustom to not having a stud QB so you can't miss what you never had.

Once he got a franchise QB, he found out the possibilities of winning the ultimate prize. You can't fault Cowher for not wanting something he never had before. That is normally the GM's job to have a bigger picture view to take that QB. Which is what happened. Thankfully for us all.

Cowher was blessed to have a franchise qb for 3 years. And he finally won because of it. Tomlin has had a franchise QB for his entire tenure.

What Cowher did with Ben his last three years included a Super Bowl victory.

Here's what Tomlin has done his last three years with a franchise QB..

2016...AFC championship loss
2017--simi final loss
2018--Nothing..humiliation losing th the Oakland Raiders (worse team in football at the time)