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Disco1981
03-29-2018, 07:29 PM
itís so hard to be a hero in a city that paints youu out to be the villain..
https://www.thescore.com/s/4794063

So over this asshat...ALWAYS,Everybody elses fault...whoa is me..boo ****in hoo...I want 17 mill...Bye!

feltdizz
03-29-2018, 07:33 PM
Man, you guys really need to up your link game.

Buzz
03-29-2018, 07:33 PM
it’s so hard to be a hero in a city that paints youu out to be the villain..
https://www.thescore.com/s/4794063

So over this asshat...ALWAYS,Everybody elses fault...whoa is me..boo ****in hoo...I want 17 mill...Bye!

Yeah, I'm getting tired of his complaining, too. He's already burning his bridges. Don't see him staying with this team for more than this season.

steelz09
03-29-2018, 09:18 PM
What an @ss clown.

NorthCoast
03-29-2018, 09:22 PM
Looking for those examples of Bell's heroism....

pittpete
03-29-2018, 09:41 PM
Hopefully he gets us a SB win this year while playing on the tag.
Then adios next year.

SteelBucks
03-29-2018, 10:44 PM
This will all be over this time next year. (I’ll gladly eat crow if he signs a long term deal...just getting tired of the drama)

Steel Maniac
03-29-2018, 11:01 PM
yawn............

steeler_george
03-30-2018, 02:43 AM
WTF is this dudes problem? Does he want a raise by the PITTSBURGH Steelers?

That is like some Joe, commenting on his company's Faceboook page, and talking how the stock owners do not respect good, productive workers, when he wants to resign his contract! In the meantime, Joe has been out with unfortunate bad timing of sick days, and also has been given leave of hiatus because of disciplinary actions.

Maybe Joe is right, maybe he is wrong, but when you speak negative about your workplace, it is not good business.

Now Joe has become a nuisance , being negative to the company, would you want to rehire Joe.

In addition one of the all time Greatest Running backs have been traded in his prime, Eric Dickerson. ( Did he ever reach/win a superbowl?)

feltdizz
03-30-2018, 07:42 AM
Haha... Bell is in a much stronger position that the average Joe.

But I agree, this wasn’t a good look.

We don’t need another hero - Tina Turner

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-30-2018, 09:04 AM
It's not just about Bell. Steelers know they will be setting a negotiating precedent for a long time by how they respond to his antics.

I hope they are reminding him behind closed doors that they have an option of not letting him see the field next year.

Captain Lemming
03-30-2018, 09:40 AM
It's not just about Bell. Steelers know they will be setting a negotiating precedent for a long time by how they respond to his antics.

I hope they are reminding him behind closed doors that they have an option of not letting him see the field next year.

I am confused. If we pull the offer he can walk as a free agent can't he?

Are you talking about benching him AFTER he signs the one year offer?

Are you crazy? That is best case scenario for Bell.

No work, no chance for injury, no chance to show any decline is his game, no additional season of wear and tear, literally no risk AND GET PAID RB record 14.5 MILLION?

I must be misunderstanding your comment please explain.

feltdizz
03-30-2018, 09:50 AM
I am confused. If we pull the offer he can walk as a free agent

Are you talking about benching him AFTER he signs the one year offer?

Are you crazy? That is best case scenario for Bell.

No work, no chance for injury, no chance to show any decline is his game, no additional season of wear and tear, AND GET PAID RB record 14.5 MILLION?

yeah... I don't get it

Its sports and sitting out, hitting up social media or talking to reporters is pretty much the oldest trick in the book.

fans may not like it but it's extremely common and I doubt the FO cares that much. We also have to remember the FO has no problem talking to the media to give their side of the story.

williar
03-30-2018, 10:53 AM
I'm sure he would have like to have become a free agent and test his market value. Surely, he would have got the contract he desired from some other team. The Steelers know this, therefore they did not want to see that happen so they tagged him, limiting his earning potential. I don't care what the steelers are offering, obviously, he knows-they know, he can get more!! The FO is satisfied seeing Bell protrayed as the villian here!

I think it's a bad look for the FO. They are going to be answering questions about it for the next 5 months. Your going to have a disgruntled player who is going to playing not to get hurt and a fractured locker room. A great recipe as they begin the season! Is he really worth all of this aggravation? The FO must think so because they are acting very desperate!!

SteelerOfDeVille
03-30-2018, 11:00 AM
i get his point.
Anybody who says they don't love his play is a liar... HERO
looking at this thread.... VILLAIN

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-30-2018, 11:23 AM
Yeah, I'm still po'd about how Bell cost us HFA last year by being out of football shape for the first few games because he didn't suit up till just before the regular season. Tomlin was right when he said in the preseason last year that that would have consequences.

More to the point, I'm afraid he's going to be true to his word and do this to us again!

I would get a decent RB in the draft, and remind him that we can let him "test the market" very late in the preseason when teams have pretty much set their rosters and wouldn't be as willing to cough up the big bucks.

Does it work that way? :)

feltdizz
03-30-2018, 11:24 AM
i get his point.
Anybody who says they don't love his play is a liar... HERO
looking at this thread.... VILLAIN

true.. but fans don't care.

"he makes millions, shut up and play... "

"stop being selfish and do what WE want"

feltdizz
03-30-2018, 11:25 AM
Yeah, I'm still po'd about how Bell cost us HFA last year by being out of football shape for the first few games because he didn't suit up till just before the regular season. Tomlin was right when he said in the preseason last year that that would have consequences.

More to the point, I'm afraid he's going to be true to his word and do this to us again!

I would get a decent RB in the draft, and remind him that we can let him "test the market" very late in the preseason when teams have pretty much set their rosters and wouldn't be as willing to cough up the big bucks.

Does it work that way? :)

Bell cost us? You sure Ben didn't cost us with the first Jags game?

So weird how one person can cost us HFA yet be so easy to replace.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-30-2018, 11:32 AM
Bell cost us? You sure Ben didn't cost us with the first Jags game?

So weird how one person can cost us HFA yet be so easy to replace.

Well, Ben tried his best for the team, but messed up.

Bell didn't try his best for the team. It's harder for me to deal with his messing up when that happens.

Ernie
03-30-2018, 11:35 AM
Bring on James Conner and a high draft pick at RB.

feltdizz
03-30-2018, 11:37 AM
Well, Ben tried his best for the team, but messed up.

Bell didn't try his best for the team. It's harder for me to deal with his messing up when that happens.

wait.. Bell didn't try his best in the games we lost early in the season?

I know Ben is the team vet but dude doesn't even practice on Wed. and looked TERRIBLE to start the season.

Is he really trying his best in practice everyday?

and then Ben throws the worst pass since O'Donnell when down 3 vs the Pats at home? Yet Bell cost us HFA.

Yeah.. Bell's right, LOL.. VILLAIN!!!

I get what you are saying but I find it odd how Bell is to blame for those early losses to the Jags and Chicago.

It's a team game until we lose?

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-30-2018, 01:09 PM
wait.. Bell didn't try his best in the games we lost early in the season?

I know Ben is the team vet but dude doesn't even practice on Wed. and looked TERRIBLE to start the season.

Is he really trying his best in practice everyday?

and then Ben throws the worst pass since O'Donnell when down 3 vs the Pats at home? Yet Bell cost us HFA. ...

Ben makes mistakes, bad ones sometimes.

Yeah that pass was bad, maybe even *worse* than O'Donnell's passes (if it's true the receivers ran the wrong route against Dallas). But it isn't because Ben's not giving it his all. It didn't happen because he he was out of football shape because he sat out for a bigger paycheck. As a matter of fact, unlike Bell (at least so far), Ben has been pretty unselfish in salary demands - unlike Bell, for the good of the team, he hasn't insisted on breaking the bank or pushing to be paid as much as QB X or QB Y. He isn't skipping the pre-season for selfish reasons. He's doing the best he can do, and sometimes we get Bad Ben (most folks would say he's doing pretty well overall though :-) ).

BTW, Ben practices Wednesdays, unlike some other vets around the league who take that day off (it was reported last season when he decided to restart practicing Wednesdays).

If Bell had reported to camp and was in football shape when the season started last year, it's reasonable to say we would have had a better chance of winning more games early in the season. He wasn't though, because he selfishly sat out.

It's his right to do that of course. I'm just a lot more PO'd about somebody performing sub-par for that kind of reason, especially looking back and seeing how HFA would have been ours if we'd just won one more of those early games when Bell was "getting into football shape".

Tomlin was right when he said that would have consequences, uggh.

feltdizz
03-30-2018, 01:24 PM
Ben makes mistakes, bad ones sometimes.

Yeah that pass was bad, maybe even *worse* than O'Donnell's passes (if it's true the receivers ran the wrong route against Dallas). But it isn't because Ben's not giving it his all. It didn't happen because he he was out of football shape because he sat out for a bigger paycheck. As a matter of fact, unlike Bell (at least so far), Ben has been pretty unselfish in salary demands - unlike Bell, for the good of the team, he hasn't insisted on breaking the bank or pushing to be paid as much as QB X or QB Y. He isn't skipping the pre-season for selfish reasons. He's doing the best he can do, and sometimes we get Bad Ben (most folks would say he's doing pretty well overall though :-) ).

BTW, Ben practices Wednesdays, unlike some other vets around the league who take that day off (it was reported last season when he decided to restart practicing Wednesdays).

If Bell had reported to camp and was in football shape when the season started last year, it's reasonable to say we would have had a better chance of winning more games early in the season. He wasn't though, because he selfishly sat out.

It's his right to do that of course. I'm just a lot more PO'd about somebody performing sub-par for that kind of reason, especially looking back and seeing how HFA would have been ours if we'd just won one more of those early games when Bell was "getting into football shape".

Tomlin was right when he said that would have consequences, uggh.

Is it really trying when you make a boneheaded decision like that?

and lets be real. Ben has shown A LOT of selfishness over the years. He even acknowledged he was a pretty bad teammate early on.

IMO he and Bell have more in common then we like to believe. Both have made offseasons about themselves. The only difference IMO is Ben's pay rate was already set at a ridiculously high rate.

Last but not least. Ben was reported to be practicing on Wednesdays because he previously WASN'T practicing and it showed in games.

Bell didn't have to show so he didn't. One could say he would have been tearing it up from the start if he did or maybe our offense starts slow because it ALWAYS seems to start slow in the beginning of the season.

How many times has our offense come firing out the gate since Ben has arrived? I think this is just folks trying to find another way to make Bell the scapegoat when we all know 13-3 isn't bad at all. We also should have been 14-2 if not for Dirty Al in NYC.

..and when you are 13-3 and nitpicking at Bell for one of those losses it's pretty obvious how petty fans can be when it comes to the blame game. If 14-2, then it would be (but we shoulda been 15-1 or 16-0!).

I don't buy it at all. We never start out hot. EVER.

Steel Maniac
03-30-2018, 03:03 PM
Ben makes mistakes, bad ones sometimes.

Yeah that pass was bad, maybe even *worse* than O'Donnell's passes (if it's true the receivers ran the wrong route against Dallas). But it isn't because Ben's not giving it his all. It didn't happen because he he was out of football shape because he sat out for a bigger paycheck. As a matter of fact, unlike Bell (at least so far), Ben has been pretty unselfish in salary demands - unlike Bell, for the good of the team, he hasn't insisted on breaking the bank or pushing to be paid as much as QB X or QB Y. He isn't skipping the pre-season for selfish reasons. He's doing the best he can do, and sometimes we get Bad Ben (most folks would say he's doing pretty well overall though :-) ).

BTW, Ben practices Wednesdays, unlike some other vets around the league who take that day off (it was reported last season when he decided to restart practicing Wednesdays).

If Bell had reported to camp and was in football shape when the season started last year, it's reasonable to say we would have had a better chance of winning more games early in the season. He wasn't though, because he selfishly sat out.

It's his right to do that of course. I'm just a lot more PO'd about somebody performing sub-par for that kind of reason, especially looking back and seeing how HFA would have been ours if we'd just won one more of those early games when Bell was "getting into football shape".

Tomlin was right when he said that would have consequences, uggh.

You mean the Bears game? One of the games that cost us home field advantage and would have helped us avoid the Jags? That game?

squidkid
03-30-2018, 03:11 PM
i wasnt on board with giving bell 17+, but now i see where he is coming from.
he wants to get paid for a #1 rb, a #2 wr and a HERO...................pay the man!

steelz09
03-30-2018, 03:16 PM
I could see Bell signing a long term deal at the last minute but I don't see him getting the 17 mil. I don't see the Steelers budging and I don't think they should.

If they can't sign him long term, we will run the wheels off this year. He will sign a long term deal with a ****ty team next year and over the course of a couple seasons, it will be proven that he wasn't worth the money.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-30-2018, 03:18 PM
Is it really trying when you make a boneheaded decision like that?

and lets be real. Ben has shown A LOT of selfishness over the years. He even acknowledged he was a pretty bad teammate early on.

IMO he and Bell have more in common then we like to believe. Both have made offseasons about themselves. The only difference IMO is Ben's pay rate was already set at a ridiculously high rate.

Last but not least. Ben was reported to be practicing on Wednesdays because he previously WASN'T practicing and it showed in games.

Bell didn't have to show so he didn't. One could say he would have been tearing it up from the start if he did or maybe our offense starts slow because it ALWAYS seems to start slow in the beginning of the season.

How many times has our offense come firing out the gate since Ben has arrived? I think this is just folks trying to find another way to make Bell the scapegoat when we all know 13-3 isn't bad at all. We also should have been 14-2 if not for Dirty Al in NYC.

..and when you are 13-3 and nitpicking at Bell for one of those losses it's pretty obvious how petty fans can be when it comes to the blame game. If 14-2, then it would be (but we shoulda been 15-1 or 16-0!).

I don't buy it at all. We never start out hot. EVER.

Dude, I wrote about Bell, not Ben. I wasn't sure why you brought Ben up, but I tried to answer you. I dunno, maybe I brought Ben up first and don't remember, if so, that wasn't what I wanted to do, sorry.

But this isn't about Ben ... it's about Bell. Do you think Bell's contract discussions are really about Ben?

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-30-2018, 03:22 PM
You mean the Bears game? One of the games that cost us home field advantage and would have helped us avoid the Jags? That game?

I think that might have been one of them ... thanks.

feltdizz
03-30-2018, 03:32 PM
Dude, I wrote about Bell, not Ben. I wasn't sure why you brought Ben up, but I tried to answer you. I dunno, maybe I brought Ben up first and don't remember, if so, that wasn't what I wanted to do, sorry.

But this isn't about Ben ... it's about Bell. Do you think Bell's contract discussions are really about Ben?

and I wrote about Ben because he threw 5 INT's in a Jags loss that may have cost us HFA.

He threw an INT at the end of the Pats game that may have cost us HFA.

It's foolish to blame Bell or any one player for our losses an not having HFA.

See how foolish and defensive folks get when another player besides Bell gets blames for HFA? There is a reason for that.

It's a team game.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-30-2018, 03:38 PM
and I wrote about Ben because he threw 5 INT's in a Jags loss that may have cost us HFA.

He threw an INT at the end of the Pats game that may have cost us HFA.

It's foolish to blame Bell or any one player for our losses an not having HFA.

See how foolish and defensive folks get when another player besides Bell gets blames for HFA? There is a reason for that.

It's a team game.

Hmm, I wouldn't be so hard on yourself for being "foolish and defensive" trying to defend Bell by throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks ("But ... BEN!"). We can carry on talking about Bell, like the title says, no harm/no foul! :-q

RuthlessBurgher
03-30-2018, 03:39 PM
If you had to assess blame for any of the 3 losses in the regular season, the primary culprit would be Ben's 5 interceptions against the Jaguars, our tissue paper run defense against the Bears, and Alberto Riveron failing to comprehend the meaning of indisputable visual evidence against the Cheetahs. But it's just easier to blame Bell for all of our losses instead.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-30-2018, 03:57 PM
If you had to assess blame for any of the 3 losses in the regular season, the primary culprit would be Ben's 5 interceptions against the Jaguars, our tissue paper run defense against the Bears, and Alberto Riveron failing to comprehend the meaning of indisputable visual evidence against the Cheetahs. But it's just easier to blame Bell for all of our losses instead.

Yeah, you may be right. I had to go back and look up the game to remember more. Bell had 61 yards rushing in that Chicago game, and wasn't he looking kind of gassed at the end?

Another way to look at it is that if he had practiced in the pre-season he'd have been in better football shape, they'd have called more plays for him, and maybe one of our drives that ended in a punt might have put some points on the board.

(Blocked FG by Bears ... that didn't help either, as we lost in OT).

In any case ... I'm not happy at all that he is threatening to sit out the pre-season again. That is not something that is good for the team, IMO.

RuthlessBurgher
03-30-2018, 04:19 PM
The week before the Chicago game, in a week 2 win against Minnesota, Bell had 31 touches (27 carries and 4 receptions).

The week after the Chicago game, in a week 4 win against Baltimore, Bell had 39 touches (35 carries and 4 receptions).

But we somehow lost game 3 vs. Chicago because he wasn't in football shape after missing training camp.

squidkid
03-30-2018, 04:57 PM
The week before the Chicago game, in a week 2 win against Minnesota, Bell had 31 touches (27 carries and 4 receptions).

The week after the Chicago game, in a week 4 win against Baltimore, Bell had 39 touches (35 carries and 4 receptions).

But we somehow lost game 3 vs. Chicago because he wasn't in football shape after missing training camp.



27 carries for 87 yards
4 receptions for 4 yards..........
week 4 and on is when bell finally got up to speed

Steel Maniac
03-30-2018, 05:07 PM
27 carries for 87 yards
4 receptions for 4 yards..........
week 4 and on is when bell finally got up to speed

It also took him that long to get in sync with his O-line. And it's going to happen again this coming season.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-30-2018, 05:11 PM
The week before the Chicago game, in a week 2 win against Minnesota, Bell had 31 touches (27 carries and 4 receptions).

The week after the Chicago game, in a week 4 win against Baltimore, Bell had 39 touches (35 carries and 4 receptions).

But we somehow lost game 3 vs. Chicago because he wasn't in football shape after missing training camp.

"Stats are like ... captured terrorist spies.

If you torture them, you can get them to say anything you want them to."

So, here's another take on the same set of stats:

1) He was obviously completely gassed from the 31-touch game the week before against the Vikes (87 yards rushing total, 3.2 YPC, yuk!), and -
2) He was *still* not in football shape (by the next game) against the Bears (only 61 yards total rushing, 4.1 YPC).
3) And criminy, the first game against the *Browns* he had only 32 yards total rushing! (3.2 YPC, yuk!).

It wasn't until the fourth game that he was finally in shape, and able to perform like the player he has the potential to be.



"You will tell me what you know or we will cattle prod you again!"

Buzz
03-30-2018, 08:10 PM
LeíVeon Bell claims the victim, and shows how out of touch he is with Steelers fans

By Jeff Hartman March 30, 2018

Let me start by saying I love LeíVeon Bell. Everything from his playing style, his dual threat capabilities and his hard-nosed style of play has made me a fan of his since he was drafted in 2013 in the second round.

At the same time, it doesnít mean I am all too fond of his off-field behavior. Chalk up the DUI with LeGarrette Blount as a young man who made a really stupid decision. Fail to take your drug test the following year, for whatever reason, and you are on thin ice. Complain about a deal which seemed very fair before the 2017 season...and sit out the entire off-season and preseason.

Strike three.

Now, the talented running back is threatening to sit out all preseason activities again, if he and the Steelers canít come to terms on a new contract and he has to play the 2018 season under the franchise tag. You would think he would be used to the vitriol which comes with such a decision, especially with the Pittsburgh Steelersí fan base.

But I guess not...

To me ó and everyone is obviously allowed to read into this however theyíd like ó him claiming the victim in this situation is almost laughable. I said this the other day when it was reported Bell wanted ĎAntonio Brown type moneyí, and I will say it again.

If you want paid like Brown, act like Brown.

All NFL franchises have a rabid fan base, but the Steelers would be among the largest. Throw in social media, and you have a direct connection with the fans who pay money to watch you play and wear your memorabilia. You think the city is painting you the villain? Why?

Because you are coming off as greedy as can be.

Come on, LeíVeon. Open up your eyes.

Most fans, and I sincerely mean this, are all for players getting what they deserve, and this rings true for Bell and his stance with the Steelers. But not showing an ounce of concern about the state of the team which is signing your checks is a bit outlandish.

What do I mean by this? Simple. Get what you deserve financially, but when it comes off that you donít care for a second about the teamís financial state...this tends to rubs people the wrong way. You are putting your bank account ahead of the team, and that is what makes people angrier than anything.

Fans didnít go nuts when Ben Roethlisberger or Antonio Brown wanted new contracts, and were eventually paid handsomely. Brown and Roethlisberger always showed up. They did their work and they showed the Rooney family the respect they wanted in return. Want a more recent example? Alejandro Villanueva was a starting left tackle making less than $1 million dollars a year. Did he skip OTAs or minicamp? Didnít miss one. Did he hold out of training camp? He didnít have to because the team gave him a new deal before the first team practice.

This is the disconnect Bell has with the fan base.

The Black-and-Gold faithful have seen example after example come through the 412 area code and work their tail off, be model citizens and get paid for it. Meanwhile, Bell talks of retirement and holding out in an effort to Ďreset the running back marketí.

What do fans hear?

ďMe. Me. Me. Me. Me.Ē

What about the team?

Bell thinks he is the villain? If he feels that way, he has no one to blame but himself.


https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/pittsburgh-steelers-opinions-reactions-news-updates/2018/3/30/17178720/leveon-bell-claims-the-victim-and-shows-how-out-of-touch-he-is-with-steelers-fans-franchise-tag-nfl

feltdizz
03-30-2018, 09:10 PM
Wait. How the hell does this guy use AV as an example? Dude is just happy to be in the league getting a chance to make a team. If AV was a top rated tackle coming out of college do you think he would have have played for peanuts?

I like AB but fans just complained about his Facebook live post, throwing a water jug, dancing and demanding a pay increase with 2 years left on his contract.

Ben... cmon, do we really have to talk aboht his off field problems?

Point is all all these examples are terrible. The 2 highest players on the team have both been accused of being immature and selfish at different points in their career yet each was rewarded with long term deal because of their on field value.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
03-30-2018, 09:46 PM
Le’Veon Bell claims the victim, and shows how out of touch he is with Steelers fans

By Jeff Hartman March 30, 2018

Let me start by saying I love Le’Veon Bell. Everything from his playing style, his dual threat capabilities and his hard-nosed style of play has made me a fan of his since he was drafted in 2013 in the second round.

At the same time, it doesn’t mean I am all too fond of his off-field behavior. Chalk up the DUI with LeGarrette Blount as a young man who made a really stupid decision. Fail to take your drug test the following year, for whatever reason, and you are on thin ice. Complain about a deal which seemed very fair before the 2017 season...and sit out the entire off-season and preseason.

Strike three.

Now, the talented running back is threatening to sit out all preseason activities again, if he and the Steelers can’t come to terms on a new contract and he has to play the 2018 season under the franchise tag. You would think he would be used to the vitriol which comes with such a decision, especially with the Pittsburgh Steelers’ fan base.

But I guess not...

To me — and everyone is obviously allowed to read into this however they’d like — him claiming the victim in this situation is almost laughable. I said this the other day when it was reported Bell wanted ‘Antonio Brown type money’, and I will say it again.

If you want paid like Brown, act like Brown.

All NFL franchises have a rabid fan base, but the Steelers would be among the largest. Throw in social media, and you have a direct connection with the fans who pay money to watch you play and wear your memorabilia. You think the city is painting you the villain? Why?

Because you are coming off as greedy as can be.

Come on, Le’Veon. Open up your eyes.

Most fans, and I sincerely mean this, are all for players getting what they deserve, and this rings true for Bell and his stance with the Steelers. But not showing an ounce of concern about the state of the team which is signing your checks is a bit outlandish.

What do I mean by this? Simple. Get what you deserve financially, but when it comes off that you don’t care for a second about the team’s financial state...this tends to rubs people the wrong way. You are putting your bank account ahead of the team, and that is what makes people angrier than anything.

Fans didn’t go nuts when Ben Roethlisberger or Antonio Brown wanted new contracts, and were eventually paid handsomely. Brown and Roethlisberger always showed up. They did their work and they showed the Rooney family the respect they wanted in return. Want a more recent example? Alejandro Villanueva was a starting left tackle making less than $1 million dollars a year. Did he skip OTAs or minicamp? Didn’t miss one. Did he hold out of training camp? He didn’t have to because the team gave him a new deal before the first team practice.

This is the disconnect Bell has with the fan base.

The Black-and-Gold faithful have seen example after example come through the 412 area code and work their tail off, be model citizens and get paid for it. Meanwhile, Bell talks of retirement and holding out in an effort to ‘reset the running back market’.

What do fans hear?

“Me. Me. Me. Me. Me.”

What about the team?

Bell thinks he is the villain? If he feels that way, he has no one to blame but himself.


https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/pittsburgh-steelers-opinions-reactions-news-updates/2018/3/30/17178720/leveon-bell-claims-the-victim-and-shows-how-out-of-touch-he-is-with-steelers-fans-franchise-tag-nfl

Yup, I kind of see it this way also.

Starlifter
03-30-2018, 10:10 PM
there is a whole lot of emotion in this thread about nothing more than a business transaction. I have no doubt the Steelers and Colbert are looking at it without emotion. I am supremely confident they have a number in mind for a long term contract that won't hurt the team and it's ability to sign players long term as well. If Bell doesn't like that number, they will ride him like a rented mule this year and suck out every last ounce of productivity before letting him stutter step to another team that will make him the highest paid RB in history - and one who will be surrounded by some of the lowest paid O-linemen, WR's, QB's etc because that team can't afford any better. For the money LB is asking, the steelers can secure 3 solid RB's that while aren't the complete LB package (who is after all?) can all fill one of the roles. It just means our new OC will have to be a bit more clever in play design, calling and substitution packages.

The steelers will be fine no matter how this plays out. No matter how special LB is (and he certainly is) - RB is simply the easiest position to replace without having a catastrophic dropoff in performance.

No need to waste any brain cells worrying about what will happen beyond 2018......

Steel Maniac
03-30-2018, 11:18 PM
Boom..............

SteelBucks
03-31-2018, 11:55 AM
I’m so over Bell and the drama. Million dollar athlete with a 10 cent brain. This is my last comment on this subject until a decision is ultimately made.
I’m going to spend my time on the hockey playoffs and see if the Bucs lose a hundred this season.

Northern_Blitz
03-31-2018, 01:41 PM
In any case ... I'm not happy at all that he is threatening to sit out the pre-season again. That is not something that is good for the team, IMO.



Going through all this drama makes me wonder if the league should get rid of the franchise tag in general. But, I don't think that teams would be willing to give up the imbalance in control that the tag gives them. It kind of strong arms players into playing below market value because their other choice is to play on a one year deal in a league where it's real easy to get big injuries.

I don't fault Bell for holding out because the system is set up for him to make that decision. It's the only way a player can exercise a bit of leverage against the team for a long term deal. Not getting it done means that this player who's good enough to tag won't be "as ready" at the beginning of the season. That being said, I don't think that it's hard for veteran star RBs to be ready with little to no practice time.

Steel Maniac
03-31-2018, 01:55 PM
Below market value???

Bell was highest paid runningback last year wil be the highest paid this year. He’s not hurting for money.

NorthCoast
03-31-2018, 02:13 PM
.....

I don't fault Bell for holding out because the system is set up for him to make that decision. It's the only way a player can exercise a bit of leverage against the team for a long term deal. ...Long term deals are easy except when a player asks for money beyond reason. Half these players will retire multimillionaires due to their hard work, good fortune, and athletic gifts.

The other half?.... well:


https://www.forbes.com/sites/leighsteinberg/2015/02/09/5-reasons-why-80-of-retired-nfl-players-go-broke/#4d8bdf5078cc


5 Reasons Why 80% Of Retired NFL Players Go Broke

ttps:/www.forbes.com/sites/leighsteinberg/)Leigh Steinberg (https://www.forbes.com/sites/leighsteinberg/), CONTRIBUTORI write about the world of sports & entertainment Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own.

Sports Illustrated recently estimated that 80% of retired NFL players go broke in their first three years out of the League. How is this possible in a sport rolling in revenue with an average salary of almost $2 million a year? With few exceptions, the star players I have represented since salaries exploded are set financially for life. These are the players at the tip of the compensation pyramid, but what about the rest? The median income in the NFL is roughly $750,000 and the average career span is less than four years. Most college graduates don't attain these levels of revenue in their first years out of college--why are the athletes struggling?
1)Lack of competent financial planning advice--Athletes are no different than any other college grads in that they were not trained as undergrads in budgeting, the tax system, and long term financial planning. This is an area of specialized expertise and an athlete receiving large compensation needs a safety net of advisors. Upon signing a potential draftee we encouraged them to pick a qualified financial advisor with a proven track record. These advisors help the athlete put together a budget, follow mutually agreed upon strategies, and protect themselves legally. A community oriented athlete will find beneficial relationships with businessmen off the field who are also willing to help.
When parents, university panels, and alums screen prospective agents and financial planners, it enables the athlete to make a better choice. But many NFLers are approached on campus by financial planners and agents who offer financial inducements to sign with them. Some financial planners ask players to sign power of attorney enabling the advisor to make investments or withdraw money without prior authorization--this is fraught with peril.
The NFLPA has tried to protect players financially. They have a program that scrutinizes financial planners and only allows referrals to the planners who they approve. The NFLPA offers education in the financial areas in a variety of ways. The NFL holds a mandatory seminar for draft picks that also tries to warn and protect them. Some athletes do not avail themselves of any of these protections.


2)Supporting a village--Some athletes feel obliged to provide financial support to family, extended family and friends. They are sharing their largess with a large number of others.
3)Divorce--Often cited as the number one challenge, divorce drains funds in legal fees and dissipates assets. The athlete ends up with half of what they earned and may have large and burdensome alimony and child support payments.
4)Lack of awareness of how rapidly a career can end--The athlete forgets that the current rate of compensation is not going to last and can be terminated by injury or skill at any point. Spending habits assume the revenue will be coming forever.

5)Lack of preparation for second career--NFL players have long off seasons they can use to lay the foundation for their life after football. Some athletes do not give it a thought and end up missing the structure and direction that football has given them. The early retirement years can be non-productive.




There are gifted advisors that an athlete can utilize. The League, NFLPA and agents try and push athletes to use help which also embodies a teaching aspect that can empower awareness. It is up to the athlete to follow the guidance.​

Northern_Blitz
03-31-2018, 02:56 PM
Below market value???

Bell was highest paid runningback last year wil be the highest paid this year. He’s not hurting for money.

I agree that he's not hurting for money. But, I that he (and everyone on the tag) would earn more as a UFA than they would on the tag. So does the team that tags them. Otherwise they would sign them at the lower free market rate.

I am not advocating that the Steelers pay the market rate for Bell. I think that his market rate is too high relative to replacement value. That's why I would have preferred if they let him walk this year and signed an impact UFA on D with the money. Others have put forward other reasons (character, greed, etc) but I don't care about that too much. He's a great player, but I think he's not worth what an open market would pay him when several teams have better total rushing with the same (or less) cap space allocated to the position. Having more players at the position also provides some insurance against injury.

But, that's not the way the Steelers generally do business and they've been pretty successful with their model. I don't think there's much benefit to cutting him now because there's nothing to do with the extra cap room now that the premium UFAs have been signed.

Northern_Blitz
03-31-2018, 03:05 PM
Long term deals are easy except when a player asks for money beyond reason. Half these players will retire multimillionaires due to their hard work, good fortune, and athletic gifts.

I think that we need to define what "within reason" is.

I think it's not unreasonable for a player to want to get paid what they would get paid on the open market. If they want to sign a home town discount because being in a place has value to them, that's fine. But the tags take that choice away from them.

Most UFAs in the NFL get this opportunity.

Bell has been denied this opportunity twice.

I get that he's still making a $hit load of cash. But, the team must believe that tagging him lets them pay below market value. If they didn't, they would sign him to the market value rate.

The franchise tag is specifically designed to protect teams from a free market for premium UFAs.

I don't think it's bad that the team doesn't want to give Bell a long term deal at the terms he wants (which he could probably get as a UFA). But I think it's a bit over the line to attack Bell's character because he wants the same opportunity as all but 32 UFAs / year.

That's why I think that it wouldn't be unreasonable to get rid of the tag. Great players already have to play under market for the first 4-5 years (depending on where they're drafted). Many NFL careers don't last that long. Then you get tagged twice. I'd be pissed if I was Bell because getting hurt this year means that I can't maximize my income over my career.

I don't think that the Steelers should pay him what he wants. But if someone else wants to pay him that much, they should be able to. I think that the salary cap provides enough protection for competitive balance among teams that they shouldn't need to have to use the tags as well.

Steel Maniac
03-31-2018, 03:28 PM
"within reason" is the key phrase in all this and Bell has gone beyond "within reason". That's why he's a lamb duck runningback on this team. Easy to see he won't be here this time, next year. And may not be here after the first day of the draft.

Northern_Blitz
03-31-2018, 04:54 PM
"within reason" is the key phrase in all this and Bell has gone beyond "within reason". That's why he's a lamb duck runningback on this team. Easy to see he won't be here this time, next year. And may not be here after the first day of the draft.

Again, from the teams perspective I agree that his demands aren't "within reason".

But, I think that they are within reason of the UFA market at large because then he'd go to the highest bidder.

The reason he's a "lame duck RB" is because the league has set up a system where we can't determine what his free market value is. I'd argue that is usually to the detriment of the players (which is why the league does it).

Steel Maniac
03-31-2018, 05:50 PM
Again, from the teams perspective I agree that his demands aren't "within reason".

But, I think that they are within reason of the UFA market at large because then he'd go to the highest bidder.

The reason he's a "lame duck RB" is because the league has set up a system where we can't determine what his free market value is. I'd argue that is usually to the detriment of the players (which is why the league does it).

No............

He's lame duck because of our salary cap and what we can and can't fit into it. It's about building a "team" that can win a super bowl. That's what it's about.

But for Bell, 14 mil a year is 6 mil more then the RB who's behind him; 6 mil !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So please with stop with this, " He's not getting his fair value worth" stuff. Stop.

Bell's agenda of how he wants to reset the market shows he cares nothing of the Steeler team as a whole because if he did, that should be where his priorities lie for a franchise that took the chance on him. 14mil a year is enough and when we either release him or trade him to a bottom feeder team that has all that salary cap space for him, when he gets busted and broken up behind some piss poor O-line, and a QB the defense doesn't respect, then he'll see that the 14 mil a year wasn't so bad.

Captain Lemming
03-31-2018, 07:01 PM
I think that we need to define what "within reason" is.

I think it's not unreasonable for a player to want to get paid what they would get paid on the open market.

Agreed


If they want to sign a home town discount because being in a place has value to them, that's fine. But the tags take that choice away from them.

Not really. He was offerred a long term deal. That would be a hometown discount. He is not interested in any discount......as his right.


Most UFAs in the NFL get this opportunity.

"Opportunity?"
If a team feels a player is worth tagging they do it. If not they dont. They dont care about appeasing a player, they do what they feel is in the teams interest.
The mechanism of the tag means a player gets elite player pay. Only elite players are worth the tag which is why it is not common, not because other teams are being generous.
Bell is an elite player who is paid like an elite player. The tag requires that he is compensated as such.


Bell has been denied this opportunity twice.

As any team would who thought a player was worth tagging, but demands were too high on a long deal.



I get that he's still making a $hit load of cash. But, the team must believe that tagging him lets them pay below market value. If they didn't, they would sign him to the market value rate.

You mean like Trumaine Johnson who's per season money with his new team is less that what he got with the tag last year?
Or perhaps they see Bells pay for one year as maket value, but wisely anticipate his skills will diminish during a long term deal as is typical for his position?


The franchise tag is specifically designed to protect teams from a free market for premium UFAs.

AND to make sure PLAYERS impacted by the tag like Bell, Cousins, and Trumaine, get paid..........with is why THE PLAYERS agreed to it.


I don't think it's bad that the team doesn't want to give Bell a long term deal at the terms he wants (which he could probably get as a UFA).

Yet the entire post paints the team as though they "denied" Bell in a way that is inconsistent with how ANY team would operate.


But I think it's a bit over the line to attack Bell's character because he wants the same opportunity as all but 32 UFAs / year.


As it is "over the line" to paint him some kind of victim of an unfair system.


That's why I think that it wouldn't be unreasonable to get rid of the tag.

Again two words, "collective bargaining".


Great players already have to play under market for the first 4-5 years (depending on where they're drafted). Many NFL careers don't last that long. Then you get tagged twice.

Which quarantees that Bell be paid more than entire rosters of runningbacks? We should all be treated so unfairly. :


I'd be pissed if I was Bell because getting hurt this year means that I can't maximize my income over my career.

Maximize income?
How much more would Trumaine Johnson have gotten paid if he werent a "victim" of that evil tag that netted him 16.5 million last season and the dude has never been all-pro?


I don't think that the Steelers should pay him what he wants. But if someone else wants to pay him that much, they should be able to. I think that the salary cap provides enough protection for competitive balance among teams that they shouldn't need to have to use the tags as well.

But now you are talking out of both sides. If the issue is the right to be paid whatever someone will offer them than there should be no draft, no salary cap, etc.

But it is a league that needs structure.

If a player doesnt like the system that is on the Players Association not the Steelers.

Northern_Blitz
03-31-2018, 08:29 PM
TLDR: CL, I don't think that I disagree with you too much. I'm just trying to see the "fair value" through Bell's eyes too. I think that the team and Bell are both acting rationally given the system.

The VERY long answer (AKA can you tell that the wife and kids are away for the holidays and I have to work?)


Not really. He was offerred a long term deal. That would be a hometown discount. He is not interested in any discount......as his right.

This seems true. But, it's impossible to know if the long term deal was an overpayment (what I think) or a hometown discount (what Bell thinks). He can't test the market, so it's unknown. He doesn't really have the choice to choose between a long term deal at market value or at a home town discount because he's forced to guess what his market value is. The team does too, but that's because they chose to.


"Opportunity?"
If a team feels a player is worth tagging they do it. If not they dont. They dont care about appeasing a player, they do what they feel is in the teams interest.
The mechanism of the tag means a player gets elite player pay. Only elite players are worth the tag which is why it is not common, not because other teams are being generous.
Bell is an elite player who is paid like an elite player. The tag requires that he is compensated as such.

I agree and I don't fault the team for doing what's best for them within the structure of the league. The Steelers are doing the right thing (except I think that the long term deal they reportedly offered is too high). I think that Bell is also doing the right thing.

The tag does mean that a player gets "elite" pay for one year. But, it also caps their earning that year. Then, the team uses the leverage of "hope you don't get hurt on that lucrative 1 year deal" to try to get the player to sign a long term deal for less than what they would sign otherwise. It's a great strategy from the team's perspective and I think it's what they should do. But, it's not surprising that the guys that write the rules have all of the advantages.

I started talking about this because people were complaining about Bell threatening to hold out. But, that's the sensible thing for him to do because it's the only leverage he has to try to improve the long term offer. I think the offer they've reportedly extended is too high. But, I also think that it's less than whatever long term offer he would recieve on as a UFA. I think that the Steelers agree, or they wouldn't have tagged him (i.e. put him in a position that tries to incentive taking a long term deal that's lower than the market value).


As any team would who thought a player was worth tagging, but demands were too high on a long deal.

Yep. It totally makes sense for the Steelers to use all the tools available to them. Again, "too high" here is relative to the Steelers ideas about what's sensible for their internal cap spending. It's likely not "too high" relative to what Bell would make as a UFA.


You mean like Trumaine Johnson who's per season money with his new team is less that what he got with the tag last year?

Yep. This is kind of what I think is crazy about Bell's demands. I think that the average pay on the long term deal should ALWAYS be less than the tag number. The player takes the majority of the risk on a 1 year deal. They should get compensated for that with an higher pay rate. The team takes more of the risk on a long term deal. So, the player should make less (i.e. have less risk premium). Running backs with Bell's combination of age / usage will also likely fall of a cliff in production when the decline comes.

It's why I think that the only logical choices with Bell are (1) tag him or (2) let him walk. He wants MORE than the tag value per year on a long term contract. I think that's ridiculous because then the team is taking more risk and paying more money. Still, it makes sense from Bell's perspective if he believes that one of the 31 other teams would pay that much. I hope that it's not the Steelers.


Or perhaps they see Bells pay for one year as maket value, but wisely anticipate his skills will diminish during a long term deal as is typical for his position?

I think that this is the right read of the situation. I am happy that the Steelers don't appear to be close to a long term deal. I'm actually a bit frightened that Bell will sign the deal that they've apparently offered. I think that you win championships by spending on QB (who "levels up all the talent on O") and on D. I don't think spending on skill positions outside of QB is the way to win SBs.


AND to make sure PLAYERS impacted by the tag like Bell, Cousins, and Trumaine, get paid..........with is why THE PLAYERS agreed to it.

...

As it is "over the line" to paint him some kind of victim of an unfair system.

....

Again two words, "collective bargaining".

...


If a player doesnt like the system that is on the Players Association not the Steelers.


I agree that it doesn't matter if the system is fair. The players and the owners agreed to it and that should be good enough. Although I think that we all thought that it was stupid that the Commissioner was the arbiter of suspensions that he handed out (which was also something that was collectively bargained).

I obviously wasn't clear if you thought that I was saying that Bell is a "victim". I don't think Bell is a Victim. But, I don't think he's a Villain either. I think that he's just doing the logical thing in the system the way it's set up. I also think that the Steelers are doing the logical thing (although I think that the reported long term deal is irrationally high given the replacement cost of good running backs).


Yet the entire post paints the team as though they "denied" Bell in a way that is inconsistent with how ANY team would operate.

Bell literally was denied access to UFA. That is the definition of what the franchise tag does. If I was Bell, I would be pissed because it probably costs him money. Again, if the Steelers think that they would be able to pay him less if he was a UFA, they wouldn't have tagged him.

Given the current CBA:
(1) The team is 100% consistent with what any team would do AND
(2) Bell is 100% (maybe 95%) consistent with what a very good player would do.

There is no bad guy here. Both sides are doing what is rational given how the league is structured.


Which quarantees that Bell be paid more than entire rosters of runningbacks? We should all be treated so unfairly. :

Maximize income?
How much more would Trumaine Johnson have gotten paid if he werent a "victim" of that evil tag that netted him 16.5 million last season and the dude has never been all-pro?


Again, I think it's stupid for a team to pay Bell what he wants. But, I think if there is a team willing to be stupid Bell should be able to profit from that when his contract is over. I think it would actually be better for the Steelers if there were no tag. They are a rational team who is willing to pass on bad deals (see Faneca). I think that they would have been better served this year if there was no tag, Bell gets a ridiculous offer from the Browns (or whoever) that we are unwilling to match. Then we spend the money on a couple of good backs (maybe Hyde +) and have money to sign D.


But now you are talking out of both sides. If the issue is the right to be paid whatever someone will offer them than there should be no draft, no salary cap, etc.

But it is a league that needs structure.

I don't think that I am talking out of both sides. I think that the purpose of the cap (and revenue sharing) is to have all teams arrive at similar fair values for players regardless of how much revenue they generate. I think that tags are in direct opposition to that idea.

I think that salary caps are essential for competitive sports. It makes it so that all the teams are on a level playing field. In free agency, it should also set reasonable salaries for players across the league because it penalizes teams for making stupid decisions (but that doesn't stop teams like Miami).

I am also for the new(ish) rules that govern how much rookies are paid by where they are drafted. These players haven't proven themselves in the NFL and they're all mystery boxes / lottery tickets. I think it's reasonable that they should have to play for a bit so that teams don't have too much of an informational advantage to setting their value on the market.

So, the NFL is a league with a (fairly) hard salary cap and structured contracts for rookie for their first 3-5 years (or something). I think that after a player finishes proving themselves on that first deal, it's not unreasonable for them to be able to at least find out what their market value is. That way, they can decide if they want to play at that level or if they want to play under that value.

I'm not sure that the league needs to be protected from salaries in all three of these ways. The first two (salary cap and rookie contracts) make more sense to me than tags. But, the tags do escalate, so it's hard to tag players (especially non-QBs) a third time. But, as you've said that's ultimately for the NFL / NFLPA to decide.

Even still, my understanding is that 1st round RBs with 5th year options exercised can't find out their market value until after their 7th year if a team decides to tag them twice. I think the average age for a rookie coming into the league is 20. So this hypothetical player would be 28 by the time they were a UFA (Bell will "only" be 27 at the beginning of next season because he was drafted in the 2nd). At 28, it doesn't really make sense to sign a RB to a long term deal, because they don't usually last much longer.

Northern_Blitz
03-31-2018, 08:41 PM
He's lame duck because of our salary cap and what we can and can't fit into it. It's about building a "team" that can win a super bowl. That's what it's about.

He's a lame duck because he's only allowed to negotiate with one team and that team is usually rational when it comes to their internal cap. Do you think there isn't a team in the league that would offer him a 1 year deal if he was a UFA?


But for Bell, 14 mil a year is 6 mil more then the RB who's behind him; 6 mil !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So please with stop with this, " He's not getting his fair value worth" stuff. Stop.

I agree that what he wants is way more than the next best option. But if you think that the Steelers are a smart organization (I do), then I think you also have to concede that he would make more than the tag value if he was a UFA. So, by that metric he's probably underpaid vs. his free market value (although we have no way of knowing what that is).


Bell's agenda of how he wants to reset the market shows he cares nothing of the Steeler team as a whole because if he did, that should be where his priorities lie for a franchise that took the chance on him. 14mil a year is enough and when we either release him or trade him to a bottom feeder team that has all that salary cap space for him, when he gets busted and broken up behind some piss poor O-line, and a QB the defense doesn't respect, then he'll see that the 14 mil a year wasn't so bad.

Bell isn't playing for the Steelers out of the goodness of his heart. But, the Steelers aren't playing him out of the goodness of theirs either.

I think the "took a chance" on him narrative is a bit much. He was selected in the 2nd round. He's not James Harrison. They didn't just pick him up off the street. He was a highly touted prospect who has put up some great production in the time he's been in the league.

I think that the Steelers would be foolish to even pay him the long term deal they've reportedly offered.

I also think that he should realize that it's in his best interest to stay off twitter / social media. Just let it play out and it will be fine. Talking about it only makes it worse.

Steel Maniac
03-31-2018, 09:58 PM
He's a lame duck because he's only allowed to negotiate with one team and that team is usually rational when it comes to their internal cap. Do you think there isn't a team in the league that would offer him a 1 year deal if he was a UFA?



I agree that what he wants is way more than the next best option. But if you think that the Steelers are a smart organization (I do), then I think you also have to concede that he would make more than the tag value if he was a UFA. So, by that metric he's probably underpaid vs. his free market value (although we have no way of knowing what that is).



Bell isn't playing for the Steelers out of the goodness of his heart. But, the Steelers aren't playing him out of the goodness of theirs either.

I think the "took a chance" on him narrative is a bit much. He was selected in the 2nd round. He's not James Harrison. They didn't just pick him up off the street. He was a highly touted prospect who has put up some great production in the time he's been in the league.

I think that the Steelers would be foolish to even pay him the long term deal they've reportedly offered.

I also think that he should realize that it's in his best interest to stay off twitter / social media. Just let it play out and it will be fine. Talking about it only makes it worse.

Let's go point for point:

A. He's lame duck to us; and us is all we are talking about here. This is a Steeler chat room. With people who care about the Steelers and the Steelers winning a Super Bowl. Period. That's what we are about. I could care less who wants to give him more money on the outside. Daniel Snyder gave an old @ss Deion Sanders a boat load of money; was it right? No. But there's always stupid owners and teams out there but we don't base our actions or in-actions on what other dumb teams do. He's lame duck to US...that's all that matters.

B. He is not "underpaid"; He was the highest paid RB in the league last year and he'll be the highest paid RB in the league this year under the franchise tag. The majority of Steeler nation is not going for the "woa is me" crap Bell is dishing out. You are never, ever going to sell me on that.

C. Colbert offering Bell last year that monster contract that would have gave him 14 mil a year was more then generous when you consider the next highest paid RB in Devonte Freeman in Atlanta (8.5 mil) who also has the same skill set as Bell. We have always tried to take care of our guys that we draft. So Colbert DID try to offer him big doe and keep the guy out of "the goodness of his heart"; Because Colbert could have easily took an about face then and went for a RB in the draft last year.

D. And as far as Bell in social media, He's already proven himself an idiot in that regard as well. He'll talk and talk and talk because we don't have the in house control to have our players shut their mouths (or else) like New England does.

Majority of Steeler nation is ready for Bell to go. This will be his last year here and I hope that he's moved on draft nite after we secure his replacement. Tomlin is interviewing and the scouting dept. has been seen looking at the runningbacks in the draft so I'm pretty confident that by draft nite they'll know who they can get to do the job at runningback. No worries.

pittpete
04-01-2018, 01:48 AM
Well said my friend.......

NorthCoast
04-01-2018, 12:08 PM
IMO, Bell's biggest mistake is making the negotiations public. Is there any other player in the league making such statements about their contract negotiations? (maybe there is, but I don't follow other teams). It's kinda like a marriage that is on the rocks. There is a possibility to mend the marriage but once it becomes public it becomes very difficult to make it happen.

BURGH86STEEL
04-01-2018, 05:34 PM
Bell needs to do whatever he feels is necessary to get the contract he feels he's worth. The Steelers need to protect themselves from the associated risks of keeping Bell long term. Business is business. At the end of the day players need to whatever they feel is necessary to get paid as much money as they can.

Steel Maniac
04-01-2018, 06:01 PM
If Bell wants to be a Steeler , then he accepts the 14 mil a year. If he wants 17mil or more then he will be a Jet or 49er or a buccaneer.

NorthCoast
04-01-2018, 07:06 PM
Bell needs to do whatever he feels is necessary to get the contract he feels he's worth. The Steelers need to protect themselves from the associated risks of keeping Bell long term. Business is business. At the end of the day players need to whatever they feel is necessary to get paid as much money as they can.
Maybe so, but the majority of players have agents whose job it is to maximize their contracts and the players let them do their job. The more Bell opens his mouth, the more the situation seems to deteriorate. But apparently he feels differently. Bell may think this is the way to get it done, but he clearly doesn't understand the way the Steelers organization works. It's actually quite strange the we have heard more from Bell than his agent during this entire process. I suggest that if Bell doesn't wish to be viewed as the villian, he let his agent be the messenger.

Steel Maniac
04-01-2018, 07:11 PM
Bell’s agent told him to take the contract last year. Bell doesn’t really listen to his agent. He’s so stupid, he hires an agent not to listen to him.

BURGH86STEEL
04-01-2018, 10:18 PM
Maybe so, but the majority of players have agents whose job it is to maximize their contracts and the players let them do their job. The more Bell opens his mouth, the more the situation seems to deteriorate. But apparently he feels differently. Bell may think this is the way to get it done, but he clearly doesn't understand the way the Steelers organization works. It's actually quite strange the we have heard more from Bell than his agent during this entire process. I suggest that if Bell doesn't wish to be viewed as the villian, he let his agent be the messenger.
Has the situation deteriorated? It appears the Steelers still want to attempt to work out a deal with him. What has Bell done wrong? He's only expressing his opinion of the situation. People are going to view Bell as a selfish villain or however they want over his business. Fans are selfish in that they want Bell to take the money they believe is fair or that they believe he should take for the team. At the end of the day fans won't care when Bell out lives his use fullness, gets cut, and loses out on millions of potential back loaded dollars. Business is business. Things will eventually work out one way or another.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
04-01-2018, 11:25 PM
Bellís agent told him to take the contract last year. Bell doesnít really listen to his agent. Heís so stupid, he hires an agent not to listen to him.

That's almost a stupid as hiring a lawyer and then mouthing off in public and doing the opposite of what the lawyer recommends.

Captain Lemming
04-02-2018, 12:17 AM
TLDR: CL, I don't think that I disagree with you too much.

I see this in your comments here. Thanks for clarifying.


I started talking about this because people were complaining about Bell threatening to hold out. But, that's the sensible thing for him to do because it's the only leverage he has to try to improve the long term offer.

I think in you zeal to make this point, which has merit, you appear to paint Bell as a victim of an unfair system.


I think that this is the right read of the situation. I am happy that the Steelers don't appear to be close to a long term deal. I'm actually a bit frightened that Bell will sign the deal that they've apparently offered. I think that you win championships by spending on QB (who "levels up all the talent on O") and on D. I don't think spending on skill positions outside of QB is the way to win SBs.

1000 percent agree on this. The upside of Bells demands is that it is keeping us from making a stupid mistake.
My advice.....Bell dont sign until you are making more than Ben, no a penny less.......pleeeease. :)



Bell literally was denied access to UFA. That is the definition of what the franchise tag does. If I was Bell, I would be pissed because it probably costs him money.
Would he make more money overall if he werent tagged?
Trumaine benefitted from being overpaid while tagged, the net result is he will make more overall.
Bell had two seasons of elite pay. When he gets his new deal the guaranteed portion likely extends two years further out than a deal signed last season.
The market may well have changed for running backs by then too.
Only if he gets hurt or his game tanks will he make less, and that is on him.


Given the current CBA:
(1) The team is 100% consistent with what any team would do AND
(2) Bell is 100% (maybe 95%) consistent with what a very good player would do.
There is no bad guy here. Both sides are doing what is rational given how the league is structured.

I dont want to paint Bell a villian here but, Bell IMHO is NOT doing what most good players do. Otherwise NOBODY would sign a contract without testing the market as a free agent.

When the Steelers really want somebody they make a "reasonable" offer and the player USUALLY signs. In the Tomlin era I dont think a single probowl caliber player in his prime has felt the need to "test the market". Would Brown, Pouncey, DeCastro, Heyward, etc made more elsewhere? Sure if the entire league got into a stinkin bidding war. But MOST players are happy to sign a fair deal commensurate with their level of play and what others are being paid. Bell was offerred FAR in excess of any player at his position.

NO what Bell did is NOT what most good players would do. They arent tagged BECAUSE they sign reasonable deals.

You point about what is "reasonable" based on speculation that others will meet his demands falls apart when you consider that MOST elite players dont need to test the market to see if they can squeeze another dime out of someone else.

To add to that, in terms of what a given position pays, I'd suggest that the reported offer made to Bell is the most generous in team history.






Let me Again, I think it's stupid for a team to pay Bell what he wants. I think it would actually be better for the Steelers if there were no tag. They are a rational team who is willing to pass on bad deals (see Faneca). I think that they would have been better served this year if there was no tag, Bell gets a ridiculous offer from the Browns (or whoever) that we are unwilling to match. Then we spend the money on a couple of good backs (maybe Hyde +) and have money to sign D.

Agreed


I'm not sure that the league needs to be protected from salaries in all three of these ways. The first two (salary cap and rookie contracts) make more sense to me than tags. But, the tags do escalate, so it's hard to tag players (especially non-QBs) a third time. But, as you've said that's ultimately for the NFL / NFLPA to decide.

I believe the purpose of the franchise tag is not to "protect the league" but rather so that elite players arent bouncing from team to team. It allows teams to keep their most valued pieces together and build something, while the player gets compensated handsomely in the process which is why the NFLPA agreed to it. Trumaine Johnson and Kirk Cousins sure aint hatin on the NFLPA right now. :)



Even still, my understanding is that 1st round RBs with 5th year options exercised can't find out their market value until after their 7th year if a team decides to tag them twice. I think the average age for a rookie coming into the league is 20. So this hypothetical player would be 28 by the time they were a UFA (Bell will "only" be 27 at the beginning of next season because he was drafted in the 2nd). At 28, it doesn't really make sense to sign a RB to a long term deal, because they don't usually last much longer.

But if two years of being the highest paid back in the league by a mile are followed by say a 4 year deal with 2 years guaranteed, you wind up making more overall.

Captain Lemming
04-02-2018, 12:32 AM
That's almost a stupid as hiring a lawyer and then mouthing off in public and doing the opposite of what the lawyer recommends.

No politics in this forum.... :)

feltdizz
04-02-2018, 08:48 AM
Has the situation deteriorated? It appears the Steelers still want to attempt to work out a deal with him. What has Bell done wrong? He's only expressing his opinion of the situation. People are going to view Bell as a selfish villain or however they want over his business. Fans are selfish in that they want Bell to take the money they believe is fair or that they believe he should take for the team. At the end of the day fans won't care when Bell out lives his use fullness, gets cut, and loses out on millions of potential back loaded dollars. Business is business. Things will eventually work out one way or another.

yup, fans call Bell selfish then selfishly want him to shut up and play

Sword
04-02-2018, 09:11 AM
I'm done with Bell, resend the tag and let him walk........we can get a RB in the 3rd or 4th pick ...the first 2 picks have to be Defense.....

Northern_Blitz
04-02-2018, 09:47 AM
I'm done with Bell, resend the tag and let him walk........we can get a RB in the 3rd or 4th pick ...the first 2 picks have to be Defense.....

I think that rescinding the tag now serves no purpose and makes the team worse in the short term (maybe the long term too).

It makes the team worse on the field next season (one of Ben's last).

I would have been OK (maybe even in favor) or releasing Bell before FA. But, only cheap / not so good UFAs are left now so it doesn't really make sense. So it frees up cap room, but how would we use it to make the team better? It just means that we'd be under the cap.

We might eventually get comp picks, but I'm not sure how that works if we let a player go now. It's usually the "next draft", but players have to be released in a certain window. Since the new league year has already started, I'm not sure if any comp picks would get pushed to two drafts from now. There is also a timing window for the release of a player for the team to qualify for a comp pick. I don't know what it is, but if it's passed it may be that rescinding the tag now would make the team ineligible for any comp picks in the future.

feltdizz
04-02-2018, 09:54 AM
I think that rescinding the tag now serves no purpose and makes the team worse in the short term (maybe the long term too).

It makes the team worse on the field next season (one of Ben's last).

I would have been OK (maybe even in favor) or releasing Bell before FA. But, only cheap / not so good UFAs are left now so it doesn't really make sense. So it frees up cap room, but how would we use it to make the team better? It just means that we'd be under the cap.

We might eventually get comp picks, but I'm not sure how that works if we let a player go now. It's usually the "next draft", but players have to be released in a certain window. Since the new league year has already started, I'm not sure if any comp picks would get pushed to two drafts from now. There is also a timing window for the release of a player for the team to qualify for a comp pick. I don't know what it is, but if it's passed it may be that rescinding the tag now would make the team ineligible for any comp picks in the future.

fans are being emotional

I still read about fans wanting to trade Bell to Cleveland for their #1 pick.

Cmon... wth, can we get back to reality and stop being delusional?

Shawn
04-02-2018, 10:23 AM
There's no need to be emotional about this subject. Some of us knew this is how it would go down. Both parties are looking out for themselves. The Steelers are not willing to overpay for an oft injured running back with a history of chemical issues...not to mention he isn't getting any younger. There is no doubt in my mind that Bell is one of the best running backs to ever play the game. He makes this team better...when he is on the field. Bell wants to maximize the amount of money he gets knowing full well that running backs have very limited time. I don't blame either party.

It made sense for both parties to play two years of tag and part ways. Thats how this is going to go down...and I would be shocked if they come to an agreement. Lets enjoy Bell while we have him and accept that he will be in another jersey next year.

Steel Maniac
04-02-2018, 10:24 AM
I think that rescinding the tag now serves no purpose and makes the team worse in the short term (maybe the long term too).

It makes the team worse on the field next season (one of Ben's last).

I would have been OK (maybe even in favor) or releasing Bell before FA. But, only cheap / not so good UFAs are left now so it doesn't really make sense. So it frees up cap room, but how would we use it to make the team better? It just means that we'd be under the cap.

We might eventually get comp picks, but I'm not sure how that works if we let a player go now. It's usually the "next draft", but players have to be released in a certain window. Since the new league year has already started, I'm not sure if any comp picks would get pushed to two drafts from now. There is also a timing window for the release of a player for the team to qualify for a comp pick. I don't know what it is, but if it's passed it may be that rescinding the tag now would make the team ineligible for any comp picks in the future.

Nope..

Do not resend the tag. Not until you have an adequate replacement secured first. You don't want to hurt the team short term.

feltdizz
04-02-2018, 11:09 AM
There's no need to be emotional about this subject. Some of us knew this is how it would go down. Both parties are looking out for themselves. The Steelers are not willing to overpay for an oft injured running back with a history of chemical issues...not to mention he isn't getting any younger. There is no doubt in my mind that Bell is one of the best running backs to ever play the game. He makes this team better...when he is on the field. Bell wants to maximize the amount of money he gets knowing full well that running backs have very limited time. I don't blame either party.

It made sense for both parties to play two years of tag and part ways. Thats how this is going to go down...and I would be shocked if they come to an agreement. Lets enjoy Bell while we have him and accept that he will be in another jersey next year.

I wouldn't be shocked if they worked out an agreement.. and I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't

We drafted Bell, we tend to reward players we draft who play well. If Bell doesn't think he should come down one cent from his asking price, well.. that's his right.

Like you said, both parties benefited and both parties are looking out for their best interest.

SanAntonioSteelerFan
04-02-2018, 12:32 PM
The FO has always been known as hard-nosed negotiators (even when they weren't, didn't they break their own rule to negotiate one or two contracts during the regular season over the past few years?).

So as part of this Bell thing, they need to proceed with that reputation in mind, otherwise their negotiating will be much more difficult down the road.

feltdizz
04-02-2018, 12:36 PM
The FO has always been known as hard-nosed negotiators (even when they weren't, didn't they break their own rule to negotiate one or two contracts during the regular season over the past few years?).

So as part of this Bell thing, they need to proceed with that reputation in mind, otherwise their negotiating will be much more difficult down the road.

I think our rep is a myth...

we are a tight knit FO but we bend and change the "rules" depending on the player

Shawn
04-02-2018, 01:40 PM
I wouldn't be shocked if they worked out an agreement.. and I wouldn't be shocked if they didn't

We drafted Bell, we tend to reward players we draft who play well. If Bell doesn't think he should come down one cent from his asking price, well.. that's his right.

Like you said, both parties benefited and both parties are looking out for their best interest. I honestly don't believe Bell wants a contract.

feltdizz
04-02-2018, 01:42 PM
I honestly don't believe Bell wants a contract.

I think he does.. but he wants AB money.

While he may not deserve it based on the RB scale.

By every other metric he is actually correct when you look at his contribution to the offense.

Shawn
04-02-2018, 01:44 PM
I think he does.. but he wants AB money.

While he may not deserve it based on the RB scale.

By every other metric he is actually correct when you look at his contribution to the offense. I won't lie, I think he has a point. With that said, AB stays on the field. When Bell plays he means as much as AB to this team.

feltdizz
04-02-2018, 01:48 PM
I won't lie, I think he has a point. With that said, AB stays on the field. When Bell plays he means as much as AB to this team.

well, AB missed the end of the Bengals game and the Denver game a few years back..

and he left the Pats game and missed the rest of the regular season last year.

one could suggest AB is starting to break down as well.

but IMO.. it's football, injuries are a part of the game.

K Train
04-02-2018, 01:49 PM
So Bell it batman...got it

Disco1981
04-02-2018, 02:02 PM
I think he does.. but he wants AB money.

While he may not deserve it based on the RB scale.

By every other metric he is actually correct when you look at his contribution to the offense.


He " averaged " 3.9 ypc and 7 ypr...With a long run of 26 yards the past 2 years...If we're gonna talk numbers, Lets talk them...Talk about slowing down...Definately NOT worth it!

feltdizz
04-02-2018, 02:40 PM
He " averaged " 3.9 ypc and 7 ypr...With a long run of 26 yards the past 2 years...If we're gonna talk numbers, Lets talk them...Talk about slowing down...Definately NOT worth it!

per pro ref football's stats..


https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BellLe00.htm

He averaged 4 yards a carry and 7.7 yard per catch if you want to be technical about it. He also had a long run of 44 yards the last 2 years.

Like I said.. one year isn't a trend. If Bell has a 5 ypc average this year for us does that mean he still hasn't hit his prime? Gotta see how he does this year before you declare he is slowing down.

Mick'sTeam
04-02-2018, 03:11 PM
I was as mad as anyone about not having HFA in the playoffs at the time, but that all went out the window after the Jags came in our house and handled us. Yeah it ended up being close but they put a beating on us. Makes no sense to continue complaining about HFA when we could take care of business when we did have it.

Northern_Blitz
04-02-2018, 03:52 PM
Like I said.. one year isn't a trend. If Bell has a 5 ypc average this year for us does that mean he still hasn't hit his prime? Gotta see how he does this year before you declare he is slowing down.

I think that you're right.

But, the Steelers don't have the benefit of waiting for his stats from next year. They have to make the bet now.

Captain Lemming
04-02-2018, 03:55 PM
I think that rescinding the tag now serves no purpose and makes the team worse in the short term (maybe the long term too).

It makes the team worse on the field next season (one of Ben's last).

I would have been OK (maybe even in favor) or releasing Bell before FA. But, only cheap / not so good UFAs are left now so it doesn't really make sense. So it frees up cap room, but how would we use it to make the team better? It just means that we'd be under the cap.

We might eventually get comp picks, but I'm not sure how that works if we let a player go now. It's usually the "next draft", but players have to be released in a certain window. Since the new league year has already started, I'm not sure if any comp picks would get pushed to two drafts from now. There is also a timing window for the release of a player for the team to qualify for a comp pick. I don't know what it is, but if it's passed it may be that rescinding the tag now would make the team ineligible for any comp picks in the future.

This is true.

feltdizz
04-02-2018, 04:02 PM
I was as mad as anyone about not having HFA in the playoffs at the time, but that all went out the window after the Jags came in our house and handled us. Yeah it ended up being close but they put a beating on us. Makes no sense to continue complaining about HFA when we could take care of business when we did have it.

and Ben also had 2 more turnovers in the second Jags game.

just sayin' folks want to blame Bell but Ben had 7 turnovers in 2 Jags games AT HOME but Bell is why we lost it all?

Slapstick
04-02-2018, 05:00 PM
Rescinding the tag isnít the same as releasing a player...if Bell were to be signed to an offer sheet after the draft (not possible because the Steelers uses the exclusive tag) the first round picks would be in 2019 and 2020.

NorthCoast
04-02-2018, 07:34 PM
I think he does.. but he wants AB money.

While he may not deserve it based on the RB scale.

By every other metric he is actually correct when you look at his contribution to the offense.Depends on your measuring stick. As I posted elsewhere, Football Outsiders for one ranked Bell as the 5th best RB in the league based on production vs competition. So it seems at least 4 other RBs are grossly underpaid as well if Bell is the benchmark.
It's simple economics of supply and demand. Teams need at least 2 good WRs and 3 or 4 really help an offense. Teams really only need one good RB to field a run game. Hence WR is a premium.

Ernie
04-02-2018, 07:42 PM
There's no need to be emotional about this subject. Some of us knew this is how it would go down. Both parties are looking out for themselves. The Steelers are not willing to overpay for an oft injured running back with a history of chemical issues...not to mention he isn't getting any younger. There is no doubt in my mind that Bell is one of the best running backs to ever play the game. He makes this team better...when he is on the field. Bell wants to maximize the amount of money he gets knowing full well that running backs have very limited time. I don't blame either party.

It made sense for both parties to play two years of tag and part ways. Thats how this is going to go down...and I would be shocked if they come to an agreement. Lets enjoy Bell while we have him and accept that he will be in another jersey next year.

If we could delete the 3-4 threads and 100+ pages of "Bell talk"...and just replace it with this post (AND LIVE WITH THIS REALITY)... we'd be ALOT better off!
Well done, sir.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-02-2018, 09:24 PM
Bell's value already known. He priced himself out. He will play tag & be gone if he doesn't take offer on table. Steelers won't pull tag but they may pull offer if draft & preseason go well. Stay tuned.




Many are forgetting the depth chart. Bell won't be here until week before start. JC may start PUP & won't be "work horse" ready. Fitz isn't carrying the load through camp & preseason. On top of all of that...New OC. There will be a part of similarity carried over but Randy will put his fingerprints on it too. Need to develop continuity & chemistry in new system. Don't think LB isn't trying to use that. Expect a RB 1st 3 rounds unless vet added. If they hit...things will come into focus.




Guice very much in play especially if ILB gone. He would grade out high. Business part..1st Rd RB. ..5th year option...tag...6 years Bargain. Leverage. Even if LB here long term..Guice has a role.




I like Guice 1st or Ballage 3rd. Adams from ND later if his foot isn't an issue for '18.

feltdizz
04-02-2018, 10:13 PM
Depends on your measuring stick. As I posted elsewhere, Football Outsiders for one ranked Bell as the 5th best RB in the league based on production vs competition. So it seems at least 4 other RBs are grossly underpaid as well if Bell is the benchmark.
It's simple economics of supply and demand. Teams need at least 2 good WRs and 3 or 4 really help an offense. Teams really only need one good RB to field a run game. Hence WR is a premium.

Oh yeah, I definitely think the RB position is undervalued.

Guys like Zeke, Gurley, etc are going to get paid. Whatever Bell gets those guys will eclipse.

pittpete
04-02-2018, 10:17 PM
https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-RB-James-Conner-is-rebounding-well-from-knee-surgery-116523466
James Conner is rebounding well from knee surgery

Steel Maniac
04-02-2018, 10:54 PM
Bell's value already known. He priced himself out. He will play tag & be gone if he doesn't take offer on table. Steelers won't pull tag but they may pull offer if draft & preseason go well. Stay tuned.






Many are forgetting the depth chart. Bell won't be here until week before start. JC may start PUP & won't be "work horse" ready. Fitz isn't carrying the load through camp & preseason. On top of all of that...New OC. There will be a part of similarity carried over but Randy will put his fingerprints on it too. Need to develop continuity & chemistry in new system. Don't think LB isn't trying to use that. Expect a RB 1st 3 rounds unless vet added. If they hit...things will come into focus.




Guice very much in play especially if ILB gone. He would grade out high. Business part..1st Rd RB. ..5th year option...tag...6 years Bargain. Leverage. Even if LB here long term..Guice has a role.




I like Guice 1st or Ballage 3rd. Adams from ND later if his foot isn't an issue for '18.



You and I are on the exact same page.

feltdizz
04-03-2018, 06:57 AM
Bell's value already known. He priced himself out. He will play tag & be gone if he doesn't take offer on table. Steelers won't pull tag but they may pull offer if draft & preseason go well. Stay tuned.




Many are forgetting the depth chart. Bell won't be here until week before start. JC may start PUP & won't be "work horse" ready. Fitz isn't carrying the load through camp & preseason. On top of all of that...New OC. There will be a part of similarity carried over but Randy will put his fingerprints on it too. Need to develop continuity & chemistry in new system. Don't think LB isn't trying to use that. Expect a RB 1st 3 rounds unless vet added. If they hit...things will come into focus.




Guice very much in play especially if ILB gone. He would grade out high. Business part..1st Rd RB. ..5th year option...tag...6 years Bargain. Leverage. Even if LB here long term..Guice has a role.




I like Guice 1st or Ballage 3rd. Adams from ND later if his foot isn't an issue for '18.

If we take a RB early I still think we keep Bell this year.

Why wouldnt we unless we get a ridiculous trade offer for him?

But I seriously doubt we draft a RB like Michel or Guice AND keep Bell long term.

RuthlessBurgher
04-03-2018, 10:44 AM
Oh yeah, I definitely think the RB position is undervalued.

Guys like Zeke, Gurley, etc are going to get paid. Whatever Bell gets those guys will eclipse.

Yeah, all the guys still on their rookie deal are grossly underpaid, per the CBA salary slotting for first contracts. But in the next few years, David Johnson, Todd Gurley, Ezekiel Elliott, Leonard Fournette, Kareem Hunt, Alvin Kamara, etc. will all blow past the contract that Devonta Freeman signed. Le'Veon Bell is just the first RB in that line.

feltdizz
04-03-2018, 11:42 AM
Yeah, all the guys still on their rookie deal are grossly underpaid, per the CBA salary slotting for first contracts. But in the next few years, David Johnson, Todd Gurley, Ezekiel Elliott, Leonard Fournette, Kareem Hunt, Alvin Kamara, etc. will all blow past the contract that Devonta Freeman signed. Le'Veon Bell is just the first RB in that line.

Which is why I can see a few RB’s being upset at Bell for not taking the last contract. That being said, it has to be encouraging to see Bell get that tag money.

I think after Bell gets paid we will see these next few RB’s get contracts that are larger than Bells.

Captain Lemming
04-03-2018, 12:36 PM
Which is why I can see a few RBís being upset at Bell for not taking the last contract. That being said, it has to be encouraging to see Bell get that tag money.

I think after Bell gets paid we will see these next few RBís get contracts that are larger than Bells.

We can only hope teams are that stupid. Please Bell don't compromise and save us from ourselves. :)

feltdizz
04-03-2018, 12:59 PM
We can only hope teams are that stupid. Please Bell don't compromise and save us from ourselves. :)

we are one of those teams.. lol.

even though we tagged him the numbers are what they are.

Mick'sTeam
04-03-2018, 03:43 PM
and Ben also had 2 more turnovers in the second Jags game.

just sayin' folks want to blame Bell but Ben had 7 turnovers in 2 Jags games AT HOME but Bell is why we lost it all?

I agree - not sure why some are targeting Bell like that. I'm completely sick of his antics, but blaming Bell feel like misdirected hostility to me.

Shoe
04-03-2018, 03:58 PM
Yeah, all the guys still on their rookie deal are grossly underpaid, per the CBA salary slotting for first contracts. But in the next few years, David Johnson, Todd Gurley, Ezekiel Elliott, Leonard Fournette, Kareem Hunt, Alvin Kamara, etc. will all blow past the contract that Devonta Freeman signed. Le'Veon Bell is just the first RB in that line.

That's a good point, and it reinforces that he (Bell) basically f'd up by not taking last year's big deal. It wasn't no $17m a year, but it was around what he is getting under the franchise tag though. He would currently be working under a nice, long-term deal now, and not having to deal with another off-season of this.

But he balked. And now, he's got another 300+ touches on his odometer... what franchise in their right mind will now up the offer to him? Not the Steelers, hopefully. I mean, I don't blame the guy for wanting what he thinks he's worth... but now, he's crazy if he thinks he's worth more than he was a year ago.

Shawn
04-03-2018, 04:11 PM
Bell's value already known. He priced himself out. He will play tag & be gone if he doesn't take offer on table. Steelers won't pull tag but they may pull offer if draft & preseason go well. Stay tuned.




Many are forgetting the depth chart. Bell won't be here until week before start. JC may start PUP & won't be "work horse" ready. Fitz isn't carrying the load through camp & preseason. On top of all of that...New OC. There will be a part of similarity carried over but Randy will put his fingerprints on it too. Need to develop continuity & chemistry in new system. Don't think LB isn't trying to use that. Expect a RB 1st 3 rounds unless vet added. If they hit...things will come into focus.




Guice very much in play especially if ILB gone. He would grade out high. Business part..1st Rd RB. ..5th year option...tag...6 years Bargain. Leverage. Even if LB here long term..Guice has a role.




I like Guice 1st or Ballage 3rd. Adams from ND later if his foot isn't an issue for '18. You know what's funny. I was watching a bunch of RB videos just hoping one would catch my eye. Ballage was one of those guys...big, fast dude who runs with authority. I like him and was surprised to see some draft profiles thinking he was a 6-7th rounder. I also like the cat out of San Diego State...can't remember his name right now.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-03-2018, 04:22 PM
If we take a RB early I still think we keep Bell this year.

Why wouldnt we unless we get a ridiculous trade offer for him?

But I seriously doubt we draft a RB like Michel or Guice AND keep Bell long term.


Yes that's what I said. LB will be here for '18 but if they draft & hit based on preseason pull offer. He plays on tag.

feltdizz
04-03-2018, 04:24 PM
That's a good point, and it reinforces that he (Bell) basically f'd up by not taking last year's big deal. It wasn't no $17m a year, but it was around what he is getting under the franchise tag though. He would currently be working under a nice, long-term deal now, and not having to deal with another off-season of this.

But he balked. And now, he's got another 300+ touches on his odometer... what franchise in their right mind will now up the offer to him? Not the Steelers, hopefully. I mean, I don't blame the guy for wanting what he thinks he's worth... but now, he's crazy if he thinks he's worth more than he was a year ago.

How did Bell eff up?

Unless Bell has a career ending injury he will have made $27 million dollars in 2 years and he will hit FA at the age of 26/27.

He's going to cash in

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-03-2018, 04:26 PM
You know what's funny. I was watching a bunch of RB videos just hoping one would catch my eye. Ballage was one of those guys...big, fast dude who runs with authority. I like him and was surprised to see some draft profiles thinking he was a 6-7th rounder. I also like the cat out of San Diego State...can't remember his name right now.
That's Penny. He would fit nicely with his return skills. I saw him put the ball one the ground..turned me off. If he had a hand injury last year maybe.

RuthlessBurgher
04-03-2018, 04:26 PM
Yes that's what I said. LB will be here for '18 but if they draft & hit based on preseason pull offer. He plays on tag.

After July 16, franchised players can no longer sign a long term deal anymore. The only option is playing for one year at the franchise tag amount. You can't wait for preseason games to happen...a long-term deal needs to get done by 7/16/18, or else Bell is a UFA in 2019.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-03-2018, 04:42 PM
Well sucks for him then. Pull the offer off table after draft.

Ernie
04-03-2018, 05:47 PM
https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/Pittsburgh-Steelers-RB-James-Conner-is-rebounding-well-from-knee-surgery-116523466
James Conner is rebounding well from knee surgery

Just read the article. Love his attitude. Need more of this.

Ernie
04-03-2018, 05:48 PM
How did Bell eff up?

Unless Bell has a career ending injury he will have made $27 million dollars in 2 years and he will hit FA at the age of 26/27.

He's going to cash in

Sounds like he already did.

squidkid
04-03-2018, 06:38 PM
why are some here hoping bell gets paid a huge amount this or next year or that the rb market equals itself out?
you guys do realize that if/when that happens, it will just make signing our next good FA rb that much more difficult into our cap................dont you?

NorthCoast
04-03-2018, 06:59 PM
Yeah, all the guys still on their rookie deal are grossly underpaid, per the CBA salary slotting for first contracts. But in the next few years, David Johnson, Todd Gurley, Ezekiel Elliott, Leonard Fournette, Kareem Hunt, Alvin Kamara, etc. will all blow past the contract that Devonta Freeman signed. Le'Veon Bell is just the first RB in that line.They may get paid but teams may decide the Steelers route is the way to go. Tag for two years, then let 'em walk, then move on to the next man up.
I still maintain these RBs today only look good because defenses have been designed and groomed for pass defense. Once defenses again adjust, RBs will return to the norm.

Shoe
04-03-2018, 09:02 PM
How did Bell eff up?

Unless Bell has a career ending injury he will have made $27 million dollars in 2 years and he will hit FA at the age of 26/27.

He's going to cash in

I just mean, in the scheme of staying with this team. He could've been with us until 2020 or even 21, earning that much throughout. But the Steelers aren't going on the hook for a new contract that will take him beyond those years. (Even in '20, I doubt he'll be near the player he is now.)

Steelwolf
04-03-2018, 09:07 PM
Shaping up to be a long off season for me, I am over the bell situation and would be ok with trading bell for some draft ammo

Captain Lemming
04-03-2018, 10:45 PM
why are some here hoping bell gets paid a huge amount this or next year or that the rb market equals itself out?
you guys do realize that if/when that happens, it will just make signing our next good FA rb that much more difficult into our cap................dont you?

When stupid teams overpay for backs it screws upn their cap, giving us a competitive advantage having more to spend elsewhere.
As Dizz noted "we are one of those teams". I am greatful that so far Bell is denying us the chance to make a stupid mistake.

I would love nothing better than for say the Pats to sign Bell for 20 million a year.
Sadly they aint that stupid.

LordVile
04-03-2018, 10:48 PM
But BROWN get a pass for rapin' our team of 17 million a year. should've never paid him that much either.

Captain Lemming
04-03-2018, 11:03 PM
I just mean, in the scheme of staying with this team.

If his priorities were "staying with the team" he would have signed already.


He could've been with us until 2020 or even 21, earning that much throughout.

He will earn MORE elsewhere. Plus the guaranteed money will almost certainly be pushed out beyond what a contract signed last season would.

But the Steelers aren't going on the hook for a new contract that will take him beyond those years.
Neither would a contract signed with us last year.
But SOMEONE might well do that once the bidding war starts.

(Even in '20, I doubt he'll be near the player he is now.)
Which is why I dont resent him. I'm thankful he appears to be keeping us from being the dummies overpaying a back with declining skills

Captain Lemming
04-03-2018, 11:26 PM
But BROWN get a pass for rapin' our team of 17 million a year. should've never paid him that much either.

Dont look at me.
Try looking up what I said when we signed Brown.

Speaking of "rappin"......

There was once time a trifecta of premium priced receiver, RB, and QB was key to winning SBs..............these pants were all the rage back then.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Itl1JJvumTuyA/giphy.gif

feltdizz
04-04-2018, 06:42 AM
But BROWN get a pass for rapin' our team of 17 million a year. should've never paid him that much either.

He doesn’t miss games...

except for the ones he missed

Shawn
04-04-2018, 09:05 AM
That's Penny. He would fit nicely with his return skills. I saw him put the ball one the ground..turned me off. If he had a hand injury last year maybe. Yes, Rashaad Penny. The guy is a poor man's Bell. He has terrific hands, runs great routes, and I like the way he runs. My only issue is he lacks elite burst. He doesn't have that instant speed Bell has but I do think Penny has potential to be a very good NFL back.

RuthlessBurgher
04-04-2018, 10:07 AM
Dont look at me.
Try looking up what I said when we signed Brown.

Speaking of "rappin"......

There was once time a trifecta of premium priced receiver, RB, and QB was key to winning SBs..............these pants were all the rage back then.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Itl1JJvumTuyA/giphy.gif

He didn't say rappin'. He said rapin'. Which is a HUGE difference. I can't stand it when people trivialize rape by using it in some dumb sports metaphor.

feltdizz
04-04-2018, 02:00 PM
He didn't say rappin'. He said rapin'. Which is a HUGE difference. I can't stand it when people trivialize rape by using it in some dumb sports metaphor.

definitely one of the weirdest/sickest analogies on sports boards.

it used to be real popular a few years back in the ESPN comment sections...

"Duke is down by 15, they are being raped by UNC"

huh? wtf?

NorthCoast
04-04-2018, 07:56 PM
But BROWN get a pass for rapin' our team of 17 million a year. should've never paid him that much either.
Keeping drives alive, Brown's first down percentage is 60%. Bell's first down rushing percentage is 26%.

LordVile
04-05-2018, 12:25 AM
He didn't say rappin'. He said rapin'. Which is a HUGE difference. I can't stand it when people trivialize rape by using it in some dumb sports metaphor.

Sorry you had to experience that.. my apology

LordVile
04-05-2018, 12:27 AM
Keeping drives alive, Brown's first down percentage is 60%. Bell's first down rushing percentage is 26%.

still doesn't excuse his price tag.. they both had the same amount of touchdowns last season. Only QB's should make that much.. Brown is greedy and selfish for demanding so much from us. Bell does more for the team. Was voted team MVP 2 out of the past 4 years.

Slapstick
04-05-2018, 06:03 AM
The market is what it is...premiere WRs get paid more...not only did Brown create more 1st downs, he has also scored more TDs over the past five years than Bell...

You don’t pay a player for what he did, you pay him for what you think he will do...

Which player is likely to decline in play first? Brown or Bell? What does the data tell us?

feltdizz
04-05-2018, 09:11 AM
the data? lmao..

what does the data tell us about QB's once they hit 35? Pretty sure it's not good but I think Ben has 3 good years in him.

Data shmatta.. what does the eye test tell us?

Buzz
04-05-2018, 09:55 AM
the data? lmao..

what does the data tell us about QB's once they hit 35? Pretty sure it's not good but I think Ben has 3 good years in him.

Data shmatta.. what does the eye test tell us?The eye test tells me no other RB is getting close to the money we're talking about LB getting ... and he's not THAT much better than everyone else.

Let some other team reset the market.

Slapstick
04-05-2018, 11:28 AM
the data? lmao..

what does the data tell us about QB's once they hit 35? Pretty sure it's not good but I think Ben has 3 good years in him.

Data shmatta.. what does the eye test tell us?

Eyes shmeyes...I prefer objectivity...

squidkid
04-05-2018, 04:50 PM
The market is what it is...premiere WRs get paid more...not only did Brown create more 1st downs, he has also scored more TDs over the past five years than Bell...

You don’t pay a player for what he did, you pay him for what you think he will do...

Which player is likely to decline in play first? Brown or Bell? What does the data tell us?


agreed, AND
i guarantee if bell didnt have the multiple drug issues, kept his mouth shut about his contract, showed up to camp and otas, wasnt either injured or suspended most years and worked as hard as brown did, the steelers would be willing to reward bell like they did brown.
thats how stupid bell really is. he has a guy on his team that showed him the way you go about getting paid by the steelers and he was too dumb to listen

feltdizz
04-05-2018, 06:02 PM
27 million in 2 years and Bell is dumb?

Gotta love bitter fans

Slapstick
04-05-2018, 06:07 PM
Apparently, $27 million in two years isn’t enough...that’s too bad...

feltdizz
04-05-2018, 06:15 PM
Apparently, $27 million in two years isn’t enough...that’s too bad...
Too bad for us.

Not bad for Bell if he gets more.

Steel Maniac
04-05-2018, 06:19 PM
agreed, AND
i guarantee if bell didnt have the multiple drug issues, kept his mouth shut about his contract, showed up to camp and otas, wasnt either injured or suspended most years and worked as hard as brown did, the steelers would be willing to reward bell like they did brown.
thats how stupid bell really is. he has a guy on his team that showed him the way you go about getting paid by the steelers and he was too dumb to listen
Squid , I too agree that if Bell were a model citizen, he would have been properly rewarded. Now he’s going to be a well paid ,busted up New York Jet player.

Slapstick
04-05-2018, 07:01 PM
Too bad for us.

Not bad for Bell if he gets more.

Yep. And he’s welcome to it! But, I believe that any team would come to regret that contract...

steelz09
04-05-2018, 09:00 PM
I don't care if Bell makes his 17+ mil per year. I just hope it's NOT with the Steelers. Im sorry but he's not that rare of a talent.

Is he really that much better than a Freeman, Gurley, Elliot, Hill, Kamara, etc? IMO, he is not. This year, you can add Barkley to the list.

All of those guys are more of a home run threat than Bell. In Bell's defense, he lines up as a receiver while some of those other RBs do not. That doesn't make him that much more valuable than any of those other RBs because we don't necessarily require that.

Additionally, he has a lot of wear and tear on his body for his age.
Add that, he does have an injury history as well as suspensions on his record. He is one positive drug test away from a year long ban.

Outside of a reasonable long term deal (3 years), I think the smart decision is to have him play on the franchise tag for this year, and kick him to the curb afterwards.

Let some ****ty team sign him next year to a monster long term deal and we'll watch as he becomes Mike Wallace 2.0. Except, Bell will be a washed up, beat up, running back playing on a bad team with a bad o-line. Then, everyone will see how "great" he really is.

Eddie Spaghetti
04-05-2018, 09:16 PM
add in the fact that he's already made it clear he's going to be a major distraction AGAIN by not reporting to camp, which is his right, but still not conducive to the goals of the team. I'm sure they are looking forward to that BS playing out again

I doubt it happens but if I'm Colbert I would seriously consider drafting a guy early and getting rid of him

Steel Maniac
04-05-2018, 11:06 PM
I don't care if Bell makes his 17+ mil per year. I just hope it's NOT with the Steelers. Im sorry but he's not that rare of a talent.

Is he really that much better than a Freeman, Gurley, Elliot, Hill, Kamara, etc? IMO, he is not. This year, you can add Barkley to the list.

All of those guys are more of a home run threat than Bell. In Bell's defense, he lines up as a receiver while some of those other RBs do not. That doesn't make him that much more valuable than any of those other RBs because we don't necessarily require that.

Additionally, he has a lot of wear and tear on his body for his age.
Add that, he does have an injury history as well as suspensions on his record. He is one positive drug test away from a year long ban.

Outside of a reasonable long term deal (3 years), I think the smart decision is to have him play on the franchise tag for this year, and kick him to the curb afterwards.

Let some ****ty team sign him next year to a monster long term deal and we'll watch as he becomes Mike Wallace 2.0. Except, Bell will be a washed up, beat up, running back playing on a bad team with a bad o-line. Then, everyone will see how "great" he really is.

Exactly ... let him flame out the same way Mike Wallace did. When Bell goes behind a subpar line with a team that doesn’t have a passing game to fear, your really going to see how “ special” Bell really is.

RuthlessBurgher
04-05-2018, 11:59 PM
I don't care if Bell makes his 17+ mil per year. I just hope it's NOT with the Steelers. Im sorry but he's not that rare of a talent.

Is he really that much better than a Freeman, Gurley, Elliot, Hill, Kamara, etc? IMO, he is not. This year, you can add Barkley to the list.

All of those guys are more of a home run threat than Bell. In Bell's defense, he lines up as a receiver while some of those other RBs do not. That doesn't make him that much more valuable than any of those other RBs because we don't necessarily require that.

Additionally, he has a lot of wear and tear on his body for his age.
Add that, he does have an injury history as well as suspensions on his record. He is one positive drug test away from a year long ban.

Outside of a reasonable long term deal (3 years), I think the smart decision is to have him play on the franchise tag for this year, and kick him to the curb afterwards.

Let some ****ty team sign him next year to a monster long term deal and we'll watch as he becomes Mike Wallace 2.0. Except, Bell will be a washed up, beat up, running back playing on a bad team with a bad o-line. Then, everyone will see how "great" he really is.

You do realize that every RB you listed except for Freeman is still on their rookie contract, right? Freeman currently has the highest average salary among RB's, and I expect every other RB you mentioned to bypass his deal once they are eligible to receive a long-term second contract.

Steel Maniac
04-06-2018, 12:45 AM
You do realize that every RB you listed except for Freeman is still on their rookie contract, right? Freeman currently has the highest average salary among RB's, and I expect every other RB you mentioned to bypass his deal once they are eligible to receive a long-term second contract.

Yeah, but those guys won’t be turning down contracts that will be making them highest paid rb either like dumb @ss Bell.

Captain Lemming
04-06-2018, 01:51 AM
the data? lmao..

Yes....Data.....it keeps one from looking ridiculous....example to follow.


what does the data tell us about QB's once they hit 35? Pretty sure it's not good.

ACTUALLY, data says that Smith (33 and actually better than ever), Brees (38 ) and Brady (40) lead the NFL in QB rankings.
Rivers (36) and Ben (35) in addition to the three above had Pro bowl caliber seasons.

By comparison lets look at RBs over 30?
Not a SINGLE ONE over 1000 yards


Data shmatta.. what does the eye test tell us?

Same thing the data said
Ummmm, that some of the best QBs in the league are over 35 and NOT ONE BACK over 30 was special.

Are you in some parallel universe where the “eye test” has Adrain Petersen, Frank Gore, and Marshawn as league leaders like they used to be in their 20s? :)

Dizz, take a moment and consider this:
Brady was 30 when Adrian Petersen WAS DRAFTED and WHO plays like an old man?

Captain Lemming
04-06-2018, 01:57 AM
Dizz, no wonder you don’t like “Data”.
Real data makes mockery of your argument. :)

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/7/75/Datchinson.jpg



https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fredshirtsalwaysdie.com%2Ff iles%2F2016%2F06%2FData_gets_it_right.jpg&c=sc&w=850&h=560

feltdizz
04-06-2018, 09:57 AM
Yes....Data.....it keeps one from looking ridiculous....example to follow.



ACTUALLY, data says that Smith (33 and actually better than ever), Brees (38 ) and Brady (40) lead the NFL in QB rankings.
Rivers (36) and Ben (35) in addition to the three above had Pro bowl caliber seasons.

By comparison lets look at RBs over 30?
Not a SINGLE ONE over 1000 yards

THIS IS A LIE CAP!!!

Frank Gore had 2 1000 yard seasons after turning 31. He averaged 1,041 yards from age 31 to age 34 in INDIANAPOLIS without Andrew Luck the last 2 years. They STINK and he still put up decent yards.



Same thing the data said
Ummmm, that some of the best QBs in the league are over 35 and NOT ONE BACK over 30 was special.

Are you in some parallel universe where the “eye test” has Adrain Petersen, Frank Gore, and Marshawn as league leaders like they used to be in their 20s? :)

Dizz, take a moment and consider this:
Brady was 30 when Adrian Petersen WAS DRAFTED and WHO plays like an old man?

Bell JUST turned 26 dude... wtf are you talking about? Why do we need to look at RB's over 30 when Bell has 4 years before he is 31?

Look at Frank Gore from age 26 to 29... averaged 1200 yards a season on the ground

Look at Adrian Petersons stats from age 26 to 30.. he had a 2,000 yard season and while he was injured at 29 he came back at 30 and had a 1400 yard season.

Marshawn Lynch at 26 to 28 averaged 1400 yards on the ground.


The thing about data is you can easy twist the numbers to fit your argument. Who said anything about wanting Bell for 5 years? 3 years, MAYBE 4 and then you start looking for his replacement.

and sure, Brees, Brady, etc are playing lights out BUT the data shows MOST QB's at that age don't play like these guys.

That's been my argument all along. When you use ALL the RB's the data doesn't look good. When you use ALL the QB's the data doesn't look good. However, when you use HOFers and the cream of the crop the data favors these players. Bell isn't some 3 year and out of the league RB. He is the best all around back in football.

Barry Sanders had 2,000 yards when he was 29. He had 1500 yards when he was 30!!!

Talk about making a mockery out of an argument? LMAO... too easy.

Game, Set, Match!

oh, by the way..

lets see how long Barry Sanders lasted in the NFL. 10 years of GREAT production.
Adrian Peterson, 9 years of great production before he fell off
Frank Gore, 13 years in the NFL and still going strong.
Marshawn Lynch, 10 years in the league. A little bit of a drop off but he averaged 4.3 ypc last year and had 7TD's. He was never a big gainer, he was a move the pile RB. Still impressive.

I know you are digging Cap, hurry up! lol

feltdizz
04-06-2018, 10:01 AM
add in the fact that he's already made it clear he's going to be a major distraction AGAIN by not reporting to camp, which is his right, but still not conducive to the goals of the team. I'm sure they are looking forward to that BS playing out again

I doubt it happens but if I'm Colbert I would seriously consider drafting a guy early and getting rid of him

but how much of a distraction was Bell? We went 13-3 and we lost Shazier to a catastrophic injury.

seriously, this talk of distractions is ridiculous. We all watched the Steelers go toe to toe with the Pats and it looked like we beat them until NYC took it away from us. We didn't even have AB or Shazier for that game and still should have won or at least pushed it to over time if not for a dumb ass pass on the last play.

it's only a distraction to folks who act like every tweet or article is life changing. It really has no impact on how we play on the field.

feltdizz
04-06-2018, 10:02 AM
You do realize that every RB you listed except for Freeman is still on their rookie contract, right? Freeman currently has the highest average salary among RB's, and I expect every other RB you mentioned to bypass his deal once they are eligible to receive a long-term second contract.

The guy from Minnesota replaced Hyde in SF, never had more than 600 yards on the ground and is making 7.5 Mill a year.

Steel Maniac
04-06-2018, 12:32 PM
Dizz, no wonder you donít like ďDataĒ.
Real data makes mockery of your argument. :)

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/7/75/Datchinson.jpg



https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fredshirtsalwaysdie.com%2Ff iles%2F2016%2F06%2FData_gets_it_right.jpg&c=sc&w=850&h=560


Check mate

feltdizz
04-06-2018, 01:24 PM
c'mon Cap.. I'm waiting on you to refute the actual data on great RB's from 26 to 30.

Where is the data?

feltdizz
04-06-2018, 01:46 PM
also when it comes to data check out this graph. It's more in line with my theory on data when it comes to Bell.

https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/240102/average-player-career-length-in-the-national-football-league.jpg

I think most people use the 2.57 years for a RB when discussing Bell. "RB's don't last long" right?

Yet WR's only last .24 years longer. Does this mean anything when discussing Bell and AB? Definitely not because both have outplayed those career lengths.

Now look at how long NFL players play when they are drafted in the first round or make at least one pro bowl? 11 years and 9 years. I think both will play at high levels for at least 8 or 9 years. Anything after that is incredible IMO.

When you are pro bowl caliber RB's the metrics used for averages/production drop off don't really hold true IMO.

Northern_Blitz
04-06-2018, 03:48 PM
also when it comes to data check out this graph. It's more in line with my theory on data when it comes to Bell.

https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/240102/average-player-career-length-in-the-national-football-league.jpg

I think most people use the 2.57 years for a RB when discussing Bell. "RB's don't last long" right?

Yet WR's only last .24 years longer. Does this mean anything when discussing Bell and AB? Definitely not because both have outplayed those career lengths.

Now look at how long NFL players play when they are drafted in the first round or make at least one pro bowl? 11 years and 9 years. I think both will play at high levels for at least 8 or 9 years. Anything after that is incredible IMO.

When you are pro bowl caliber RB's the metrics used for averages/production drop off don't really hold true IMO.

I like this chart, but I wish that they separated that players with 1 pro-bowl by position. I think that would be more representative than the numbers at the bottom.

I think that most players leave the league because they don't make it (i.e. back ups / special teamers). It would be interesting to see if the data for good players verifies the gut feeling most of us have that RBs age out earlier than other positions (like WR).

feltdizz
04-06-2018, 04:31 PM
I like this chart, but I wish that they separated that players with 1 pro-bowl by position. I think that would be more representative than the numbers at the bottom.

I think that most players leave the league because they don't make it (i.e. back ups / special teamers). It would be interesting to see if the data for good players verifies the gut feeling most of us have that RBs age out earlier than other positions (like WR).

check out this graph for injuries/games missed by position from 2000-2014

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/images/Guest/guest-102315-12.jpg

honestly, I think it's just part of the game. Guys get injured. We have no idea if Bell will have another major injury of if Ben, AB, Conner, etc.. will have one. While I will agree RB's take punishment I would have more issue if Bell sat out voluntarily from a game or pulled up gimpy in the regular season and pulled a Duce Staley.


If AB has another injury this year will we hold it against him?

Slapstick
04-06-2018, 05:21 PM
Teams keep 5 or 6 WRs but only 3 RBs...with so much competition and turnover, it is kind of a miracle that WRs last longer at all...

feltdizz
04-06-2018, 06:06 PM
Teams keep 5 or 6 WRs but only 3 RBs...with so much competition and turnover, it is kind of a miracle that WRs last longer at all...

Well, the fact they keep 5 to 6 is probably why they last longer in the league. If they only kept 4 Iím sure the number of years would be shorter overall.

i think the real takeaway from this is if you make the pro bowl at least once you will usually have a long career. Itís pretty much a captain obvious moment. The best players play longer.

Captain Lemming
04-07-2018, 12:58 AM
c'mon Cap.. I'm waiting on you to refute the actual data on great RB's from 26 to 30.

Where is the data?

Wow, I got nuthin man.
I mean when you COMPLETELY CHANGE THE ARGUMENT you are so good at fooling yourself into thinking you make sense. :)

Oh, have you forgotten what point you made that I disputed and crushed Dizz?

I responded to your post about QBs over 35.
I destroyed YOUR POINT which was about quarterbacks by pointing out that a DISPROPORTIONATLY LARGE number of QBs are among the leagues elite. Just sweeping that point under the rug aren’t we Dizz?

I “added” an additionally wholly accurate point that NOT ONE BACK IN THE LEAGUE over 30 had 1000 yards. My accurate point was that QBs age WAY better than runningbacks.

You proceed to call me a “liar” because ONE GUY in the league today “had” 1000 yard seasons over 30. Come on Dizz don’t play dense, you KNOW I was talking about last season 2017.

Sure Dizz there have been other backs during the history of the league who had 1000 yards seasons over 30. :)

Then you change MY premise to try to make your point. I correctly pointed out that there are no backs in the NFL over 30 who have 1000 yards. I am correct I what “I” said.

Sure, Bell is 26. “I” never said anything about Bell being “done” at 26 did I?

But you and I BOTH know he ain’t signing no 3 year deal Dizz, so your point is moot.

My points? All perfectly valid.

Talk to me about how right you are about QBs over 35 or backs over 30 and you would have something but right now you got nothin my friend.

Northern_Blitz
04-07-2018, 05:46 AM
check out this graph for injuries/games missed by position from 2000-2014

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/images/Guest/guest-102315-12.jpg

honestly, I think it's just part of the game. Guys get injured. We have no idea if Bell will have another major injury of if Ben, AB, Conner, etc.. will have one. While I will agree RB's take punishment I would have more issue if Bell sat out voluntarily from a game or pulled up gimpy in the regular season and pulled a Duce Staley.


If AB has another injury this year will we hold it against him?

Let's say that the chance of injury to a player on a carry is equal for every player. Bell would be more likely to get injured because he carries and catches the ball more than everyone else in the league.

I think I said this last time you posted that chart, but I was surprised that WRs injury rates were just as high as RBs. That's why I think it would have been interesting in the first chart to see them separate career length out by position in the pro-bowl category.

My sense (and probably the conventional wisdom) is that RB careers are shorter because they take more punishment. Guys who go to pro bowls are probably more likely to end their careers because of wear & tear + decline in performance (instead of just getting displaced which I think leads to the 2.5 year thing above). It would be interesting if probowl RBs and WRs had similar career lengths.

For example, I think that we payed AB too much too. He's awesome, but I think that great QBs make skill positions great and that we'd have been better served letting him go and bringing in cheaper average to above average guys. Ben would make these guys look better than they are. Then, we spend the money on D (or the O-Line), where I don't think there's a position that elevates half the other guys on the field. But, I wasn't as upset when we paid AB because (1) it was in line with the market for great WRs and (2) I assumed that WRs have longer careers than RBs. So, I figured that if we had to pick one of them, I'd pick AB because he should be good for longer. Having the data would be interesting because I could see if that assumption was right or wrong.

feltdizz
04-07-2018, 09:54 AM
Wow, I got nuthin man.
I mean when you COMPLETELY CHANGE THE ARGUMENT you are so good at fooling yourself into thinking you make sense. :)

Oh, have you forgotten what point you made that I disputed and crushed Dizz?

I responded to your post about QBs over 35.
I destroyed YOUR POINT which was about quarterbacks by pointing out that a DISPROPORTIONATLY LARGE number of QBs are among the leagues elite. Just sweeping that point under the rug aren’t we Dizz?

I “added” an additionally wholly accurate point that NOT ONE BACK IN THE LEAGUE over 30 had 1000 yards. My accurate point was that QBs age WAY better than runningbacks.

You proceed to call me a “liar” because ONE GUY in the league today “had” 1000 yard seasons over 30. Come on Dizz don’t play dense, you KNOW I was talking about last season 2017.

Sure Dizz there have been other backs during the history of the league who had 1000 yards seasons over 30. :)

Then you change MY premise to try to make your point. I correctly pointed out that there are no backs in the NFL over 30 who have 1000 yards. I am correct I what “I” said.

Sure, Bell is 26. “I” never said anything about Bell being “done” at 26 did I?

But you and I BOTH know he ain’t signing no 3 year deal Dizz, so your point is moot.

My points? All perfectly valid.

Talk to me about how right you are about QBs over 35 or backs over 30 and you would have something but right now you got nothin my friend.

wait, so you want to use one year of stats to prove your point even tho most of those backs have shown they were productive over 30? Lmao... who does that? That’s THEE worst way to use data.


and why would I talk about RB’s over 30 when Bell just turned 26?

Thats like talking about QB’s over 40 when discussing Ben’s future.

My point with QB’s over 35 is the data for ALL QB’s over 35 over the years isn’t kind.

My other point is GREAT PLAYERS aren’t the norm so they always push the boundaries of averages off a cliff.

Dorsnt matter if any RB’s had over a thousand yard last year. Great backs have done it before AND since Bell is only 26, it doesn’t even matter. At most we would use Bell for 4 more years.

Who the hell uses one year of data as proof? WTH? That’s not how data works buddy.

Slapstick
04-07-2018, 10:20 AM
http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2Fchartbuilder%2FAge%2Dvs%2DProduct ion%2DRunning%2DBacks%2DReceivers1396880190285.png&w=570

And this one:

https://www.rotowire.com/images/articles/fantasypeakyears.png

QBs and WRs have the most seasons within 80% of peak performance while RBs have a lot fewer...also, a WR at age 31 is almost as exactly as productive as they were at age 27...

This is why the RB position has been devalued...this is why giving Bell $17 million per year is a worse investment than giving Brown $17 million per year...

steelz09
04-07-2018, 10:24 AM
I think Bell's career will look a lot like Eddie George which is a pretty damn good complement.

George's best years were his first 5. His actually best was his 5th at the age of 27.

He did have a comeback year at 29 and then fell off. If I recall, his career ended due to turf toe.. not saying that means anything in the Bell comparison.

Do you think Bell would accept a 3-year / 51 million deal with the first two years guaranteed? That's 17 million / year.

Would you all be in favor of that?

I don't even think Bell would accept that deal for some reason.

Captain Lemming
04-07-2018, 10:30 AM
why would I talk about RBís over 30 when Bell just turned 26?

Thats like talking about QBís over 40 when discussing Benís future.

My point with QBís over 35 is the data for ALL QBís over 35 over the years isnít kind.

My other point is GREAT PLAYERS arenít the norm so they always push the boundaries of averages off a cliff.

Dorsnt matter if any RBís had over a thousand yard last year. Great backs have done it before AND since Bell is only 26, it doesnít even matter. At most we would use Bell for 4 more years.

Who the hell uses one year of data as proof? WTH? Thatís not how data works buddy.

I get what you are saying.
THIS is why it matters Dizz.
You point to results that are FAR from typical THAT is why the fact that looking at one season has merit.

As far as Bell being 26....your best point......Bell has all of ONE season that did not end with injury Dizz. It is ridiculous to ďbetĒ that he will be the rare back who is the statistical anomaly when he is among the most consistently injured players in the league.

Bell ainít settling for no short deal without ďtesting the marketĒ first. AP had a 7 year deal. Bell wants the biggest deal a back has ever had, 5 years at least. He ainít signing no short deal. Any deal he is willing to sign WILL take him into his 30s, beyond the typical effective years for as back.

My biggest beef about paying Bell is because high priced backs are poor investments because they donít bring you championships in todays NFL.

If they DID we would ALREADY have rings because we HAVE been without peer in that regard.

Steel Maniac
04-07-2018, 11:09 AM
Not since Marshall Faulk.

pittpete
04-07-2018, 02:04 PM
Bottom line is Bell is a moron for not signing a long term deal.
He's betting on himself because of his huge ego.

feltdizz
04-07-2018, 02:22 PM
I get what you are saying.
THIS is why it matters Dizz.
You point to results that are FAR from typical THAT is why the fact that looking at one season has merit.

As far as Bell being 26....your best point......Bell has all of ONE season that did not end with injury Dizz. It is ridiculous to “bet” that he will be the rare back who is the statistical anomaly when he is among the most consistently injured players in the league.

Bell ain’t settling for no short deal without “testing the market” first. AP had a 7 year deal. Bell wants the biggest deal a back has ever had, 5 years at least. He ain’t signing no short deal. Any deal he is willing to sign WILL take him into his 30s, beyond the typical effective years for as back.

My biggest beef about paying Bell is because high priced backs are poor investments because they don’t bring you championships in todays NFL.

If they DID we would ALREADY have rings because we HAVE been without peer in that regard.

But Bell wasn’t injured LAST year *wink, wink*

We have no idea what the future holds but a 5 year deal would be perfect.... as long as we move him that last year.

I dont think it will take 17 mill per year to get that deal done.

Steel Maniac
04-07-2018, 02:24 PM
Bottom line is Bell is a moron for not signing a long term deal.
He's betting on himself because of his huge ego.

Hahahaha hahahaha...Pitt, you sounding like Squid. Hahahahaha

pittpete
04-07-2018, 02:51 PM
If he has a career ending injury this year then its over..
If he tears an acl, his dreams of a big $$$ contract are most likely over.
Theres no injury guarantee so betting on himself once again is not a smart play.
I don't know what the dope above you said because he's on my ignore list but when we gave Brown the big $$$ i said Bell was more valuable to the team long term than Brown.
Of course he disagreed and now his man love for Bell is more pathetic than his trolling....LOL

Steel Maniac
04-07-2018, 03:54 PM
If he has a career ending injury this year then its over..
If he tears an acl, his dreams of a big $$$ contract are most likely over.
Theres no injury guarantee so betting on himself once again is not a smart play.
I don't know what the dope above you said because he's on my ignore list but when we gave Brown the big $$$ i said Bell was more valuable to the team long term than Brown.
Of course he disagreed and now his man love for Bell is more pathetic than his trolling....LOL

I don't know what he said either because he's on my ignore list too. His constant Bell trolling is sad. He follows people around who talk about Bell like a lost puppy. I don't know what's wrong with him. It's called a "bromance". He and Bell have a bromance. LOL

feltdizz
04-07-2018, 04:08 PM
Lmao... name calling and accusations while taking every chance they can to bash Bell who is still a Steeler at the moment.

Gotta love this place. Folks have me on ignore and still worry about me.

Northern_Blitz
04-07-2018, 04:41 PM
http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2Fchartbuilder%2FAge%2Dvs%2DProduct ion%2DRunning%2DBacks%2DReceivers1396880190285.png&w=570

And this one:

https://www.rotowire.com/images/articles/fantasypeakyears.png

QBs and WRs have the most seasons within 80% of peak performance while RBs have a lot fewer...also, a WR at age 31 is almost as exactly as productive as they were at age 27...

This is why the RB position has been devalued...this is why giving Bell $17 million per year is a worse investment than giving Brown $17 million per year...

Especially since Bell is 26 and the sharp decline on that graph starts at 27.

This is why I was saying that it sucks for RBs that they can be kept from UFA for 7 years. Essentially, if they're good they can be kept away from UFA until they are expected to start the big decline.

Slapstick
04-07-2018, 05:13 PM
Lmao... name calling and accusations while taking every chance they can to bash Bell who is still a Steeler at the moment.

Gotta love this place. Folks have me on ignore and still worry about me.

Yep. Put you on the ignore list and then talk $#!+ about you...:lol::lol::lol:

feltdizz
04-07-2018, 06:11 PM
Yep. Put you on the ignore list and then talk $#!+ about you...:lol::lol::lol:

The ole “La La La, I can’t hear you” trick.

pittpete
04-07-2018, 06:45 PM
Yep. Put you on the ignore list and then talk $#!+ about you...:lol::lol::lol:

Be careful, you're next....:eek:

feltdizz
04-09-2018, 09:15 AM
http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2Fchartbuilder%2FAge%2Dvs%2DProduct ion%2DRunning%2DBacks%2DReceivers1396880190285.png&w=570

And this one:

https://www.rotowire.com/images/articles/fantasypeakyears.png

QBs and WRs have the most seasons within 80% of peak performance while RBs have a lot fewer...also, a WR at age 31 is almost as exactly as productive as they were at age 27...

This is why the RB position has been devalued...this is why giving Bell $17 million per year is a worse investment than giving Brown $17 million per year...

interesting graphs Salp, thanks.

one thing I noticed was the yards per season average is pretty low compared to where Bell and AB are right now. I wonder how this graph looks for ELITE RB's.

Shawn
04-09-2018, 09:28 AM
The graphs pull up what I've been trying to say. This is actually smart for both parties, not sure why there is so much drama surrounding it. The Steelers pay Bell at an elite level for the best years of his career. But, let him go as he is expected to decline. Another team pays him crazy money on a long term contract that he will likely under perform. He gets paid, Steelers get his best years, both parties shake hands and walk away. I don't understand the hate.

Shawn
04-09-2018, 09:29 AM
And this brings up another good point. Why use a first round draft pick on a position with only 3-4 elite years?

Northern_Blitz
04-09-2018, 09:58 AM
And this brings up another good point. Why use a first round draft pick on a position with only 3-4 elite years?

I think that the argument would be that RBs take the least amount of time to come in and be impact players. No data, but that's my sense.

squidkid
04-09-2018, 10:16 AM
Yep. Put you on the ignore list and then talk $#!+ about you...:lol::lol::lol:


better yet. snitch to have you banned then have a 2 day rant about your fandom....

Eddie Spaghetti
04-09-2018, 10:27 AM
The graphs pull up what I've been trying to say. This is actually smart for both parties, not sure why there is so much drama surrounding it. The Steelers pay Bell at an elite level for the best years of his career. But, let him go as he is expected to decline. Another team pays him crazy money on a long term contract that he will likely under perform. He gets paid, Steelers get his best years, both parties shake hands and walk away. I don't understand the hate.

that's what most people have been saying all along

just had one guy flapping his gums non stop about resetting the RB market

Steel Maniac
04-09-2018, 10:30 AM
And this brings up another good point. Why use a first round draft pick on a position with only 3-4 elite years?

I think because the idea of trying to get it done in Ben's last three years is the drive right now.

feltdizz
04-09-2018, 10:31 AM
The graphs pull up what I've been trying to say. This is actually smart for both parties, not sure why there is so much drama surrounding it. The Steelers pay Bell at an elite level for the best years of his career. But, let him go as he is expected to decline. Another team pays him crazy money on a long term contract that he will likely under perform. He gets paid, Steelers get his best years, both parties shake hands and walk away. I don't understand the hate.

I'm not completely sold that Bell's best years are behind him. Bell was just 21 when we drafted him. Backs of his caliber usually have 9 to 10 years of good production. While I think we may move on after this year due to the way things are playing out I don't think we are going to see a sharp decline in his play.

His production may drop a bit due to the team he signs with but he will still be a very effective RB.

Bell isn't a Mike Wallace where he has one trick. Bell can run, pass AND protect and while those things don't always show up in the stats it's definitely a huge contribution to an offense.

RuthlessBurgher
04-09-2018, 10:33 AM
And this brings up another good point. Why use a first round draft pick on a position with only 3-4 elite years?

In terms of RB prospects, I like Darrius Guice as a player for sure, but rather than using our 1st round pick on him, I think there would be better value targeting someone like Sony Michel, Kerryon Johnson, or Rashaad Penny in round 2, which is where we found Le'Veon Bell in the first place (as opposed to using a first round pick on Rashard Mendenhall).

feltdizz
04-09-2018, 10:33 AM
that's what most people have been saying all along

just had one guy flapping his gums non stop about resetting the RB market

oh the horror.. another poster isn't falling in line with the Bell needs to go crowd.

So many hurt feelings

feltdizz
04-09-2018, 10:35 AM
In terms of RB prospects, I like Darrius Guice as a player for sure, but rather than using our 1st round pick on him, I think there would be better value targeting someone like Sony Michel, Kerryon Johnson, or Rashaad Penny in round 2, which is where we found Le'Veon Bell in the first place (as opposed to using a first round pick on Rashard Mendenhall).

I like Sony Michel, I think he would be a nice pick up in the second round if we went that route.

Shawn
04-09-2018, 01:55 PM
In terms of RB prospects, I like Darrius Guice as a player for sure, but rather than using our 1st round pick on him, I think there would be better value targeting someone like Sony Michel, Kerryon Johnson, or Rashaad Penny in round 2, which is where we found Le'Veon Bell in the first place (as opposed to using a first round pick on Rashard Mendenhall). I fully agree. There is only one guy I would use our first round pick on and that's Barkley who is a true generational back. And obviously, that isn't happening. I do like Rasaad Penny.

feltdizz
04-09-2018, 03:46 PM
It will be interesting seeing how the draft plays out. Do we go offense BPA like JuJu early if our guy isn’t there?

Do we go D heavy and really address the most glaring weakness on this team?

RB early? I can’t see it but our FO is pretty unpredictable when it comes to skill position and draft rounds.

Steel Maniac
04-09-2018, 03:52 PM
I fully agree. There is only one guy I would use our first round pick on and that's Barkley who is a true generational back. And obviously, that isn't happening. I do like Rasaad Penny.

I was reading up on Penny this past weekend and I was surprised because I thought he was smaller then he actually is. He's interesting as well as the Arizona St. guy as well.

Steel Maniac
04-09-2018, 03:52 PM
In terms of RB prospects, I like Darrius Guice as a player for sure, but rather than using our 1st round pick on him, I think there would be better value targeting someone like Sony Michel, Kerryon Johnson, or Rashaad Penny in round 2, which is where we found Le'Veon Bell in the first place (as opposed to using a first round pick on Rashard Mendenhall).

Ruth, come on. Why are you calling Guice Rashard Mendenhall. Wow..what a slap! lmfao!!

RuthlessBurgher
04-09-2018, 03:59 PM
I think they will make it a point to use one of our three picks on an ILB, since that position could use an immediate talent upgrade to compete with the likes of Vince Williams, Jon Bostic, Tyler Matakevich, and L.J. Fort. How the board falls will determine which early pick is used to fill that hole, but I wouldn't be shocked if we used the other early picks to take a potential future starter at RB, WR, OG, TE, or even QB (especially with upcoming question marks surrounding the future of Le'Veon Bell, Martavis Bryant, Ramon Foster, Vance McDonald, and Ben Roethlisberger). While fans look at the 2018 draft with the 2018 season in mind, the front office might look at the 2018 draft with the 2019 season in mind.

RuthlessBurgher
04-09-2018, 04:02 PM
Ruth, come on. Why are you calling Guice Rashard Mendenhall. Wow..what a slap! lmfao!!

I actually said that I liked Guice as a player, but then went on to note that our recent history of using early picks on RB's was much more successful when we used a 2nd round pick on Bell than when we used a 1st round pick on Mendenhall. In no way did I compare Guice to Mendenhall as a player.

lmfao! lmfao! lmfao! lmfao! lmfao!

feltdizz
04-09-2018, 04:06 PM
I think they will make it a point to use one of our three picks on an ILB, since that position could use an immediate talent upgrade to compete with the likes of Vince Williams, Jon Bostic, Tyler Matakevich, and L.J. Fort. How the board falls will determine which early pick is used to fill that hole, but I wouldn't be shocked if we used the other early picks to take a potential future starter at RB, WR, OG, TE, or even QB (especially with upcoming question marks surrounding the future of Le'Veon Bell, Martavis Bryant, Ramon Foster, Vance McDonald, and Ben Roethlisberger). While fans look at the 2018 draft with the 2018 season in mind, the front office might look at the 2018 draft with the 2019 season in mind.

I think we approach each draft thru a 3 year window.

Steel Maniac
04-09-2018, 05:11 PM
I think they will make it a point to use one of our three picks on an ILB, since that position could use an immediate talent upgrade to compete with the likes of Vince Williams, Jon Bostic, Tyler Matakevich, and L.J. Fort. How the board falls will determine which early pick is used to fill that hole, but I wouldn't be shocked if we used the other early picks to take a potential future starter at RB, WR, OG, TE, or even QB (especially with upcoming question marks surrounding the future of Le'Veon Bell, Martavis Bryant, Ramon Foster, Vance McDonald, and Ben Roethlisberger). While fans look at the 2018 draft with the 2018 season in mind, the front office might look at the 2018 draft with the 2019 season in mind.


I’m not opposed to them using the second round pick on a runningback but do you see a run on runningbacks starting at the near top of round two?

squidkid
04-09-2018, 05:51 PM
I think we approach each draft thru a 3 year window.

'we' meaning the steelers, correct?
since you want to give bell all the money and rely on draft picks to win a super bowl this year?

Iron City Inc.
04-09-2018, 07:00 PM
I’m not opposed to them using the second round pick on a runningback but do you see a run on runningbacks starting at the near top of round two?

I could see a run early in 2 for sure with this group of backs.

feltdizz
04-09-2018, 07:49 PM
'we' meaning the steelers, correct?


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/771897919515484160/oQBPMcQ5_400x400.jpg

Steel Maniac
04-09-2018, 11:00 PM
I could see a run early in 2 for sure with this group of backs.

Based on the first 15 teams, I think it’s possible too.

RuthlessBurgher
04-10-2018, 10:14 AM
I’m not opposed to them using the second round pick on a runningback but do you see a run on runningbacks starting at the near top of round two?

Perhaps, but considering that there is Derrius Guice, Sony Michel, Nick Chubb, Ronald Jones, Kerryon Johnson, and Rashaad Penny all in the the 2nd round mix, I doubt that all of them come off the board before we pick in round 2. But if they do, there will still be guys like Jaylen Samuels, Royce Freeman, Kalen Ballage, Bo Scarbrough, etc. a little bit later on...so no need to panic. Plus, we still have Le'Veon Bell and James Conner for 2018, so it isn't exactly the most pressing immediate need on our roster anyway.

Steel Maniac
04-10-2018, 10:22 AM
Yeah, really want to solve our linebacker corps issues once and for all.

feltdizz
04-10-2018, 10:23 AM
Perhaps, but considering that there is Derrius Guice, Sony Michel, Nick Chubb, Ronald Jones, Kerryon Johnson, and Rashaad Penny all in the the 2nd round mix, I doubt that all of them come off the board before we pick in round 2. But if they do, there will still be guys like Jaylen Samuels, Royce Freeman, Kalen Ballage, Bo Scarbrough, etc. a little bit later on...so no need to panic. Plus, we still have Le'Veon Bell and James Conner for 2018, so it isn't exactly the most pressing immediate need on our roster anyway.

James Kelly - University of Tennessee. Grab him in the 3rd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jRr8UwgEVs

feltdizz
04-10-2018, 10:26 AM
or Akrum Wadley from Iowa. Blocking needs to improve but dude reminds me of Bell in the open field. He should be available later in the draft


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m33hQC50Ow

Shawn
04-10-2018, 10:33 AM
Perhaps, but considering that there is Derrius Guice, Sony Michel, Nick Chubb, Ronald Jones, Kerryon Johnson, and Rashaad Penny all in the the 2nd round mix, I doubt that all of them come off the board before we pick in round 2. But if they do, there will still be guys like Jaylen Samuels, Royce Freeman, Kalen Ballage, Bo Scarbrough, etc. a little bit later on...so no need to panic. Plus, we still have Le'Veon Bell and James Conner for 2018, so it isn't exactly the most pressing immediate need on our roster anyway. I really like Scarborough and Ballage. I would prefer to roll with ILB or TE with that first pick. Both areas can use an immediate upgrade.

RuthlessBurgher
04-10-2018, 11:00 AM
I really like Scarborough and Ballage. I would prefer to roll with ILB or TE with that first pick. Both areas can use an immediate upgrade.

In terms of TE this year, I'm not in love with Hurst, Goedert, Gesicki, or Andrews. If I'm spending a first round pick on a TE, I'm looking for the next Heath Miller. I don't see that potential in any of the TE's in this class. They all strike me as day two guys. Complementary type guys rather than future Pro Bowlers.

Shawn
04-10-2018, 12:49 PM
In terms of TE this year, I'm not in love with Hurst, Goedert, Gesicki, or Andrews. If I'm spending a first round pick on a TE, I'm looking for the next Heath Miller. I don't see that potential in any of the TE's in this class. They all strike me as day two guys. Complementary type guys rather than future Pro Bowlers. I haven't even looked at the TE class yet but I believe you.

Shawn
04-10-2018, 01:05 PM
Ok, just looked at Dallas Goedert. Not sure where they have him going but that guy is a pass catching beast.

Shawn
04-10-2018, 01:07 PM
James Kelly - University of Tennessee. Grab him in the 3rd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jRr8UwgEVs Great call on Kelly. I'll agree with you...I like this kid as well. I actually like this class of running backs better than last years.

Eddie Spaghetti
04-10-2018, 01:28 PM
3rd is too high for kelly, imo especially with the weed suspension. he is a tough runner but a tad undersized, although his OL sucked at UT

the one guy i might draft from UT this year is Rashaan Gaulden. another physical CB that has a penchant for making plays ala Cam Sutton

feltdizz
04-10-2018, 01:29 PM
Great call on Kelly. I'll agree with you...I like this kid as well. I actually like this class of running backs better than last years.

He is a little stiff but he is a bull.

Butch Jones was a terrible, terrible coach. He had so much talent and did so little with it.

Shawn
04-10-2018, 01:32 PM
3rd is too high for kelly, imo especially with the weed suspension. he is a tough runner but a tad undersized, although his OL sucked at UT

the one guy i might draft from UT this year is Rashaan Golden. another physical CB that has a penchant for making plays ala Cam Sutton Third might be a bit high for him but I think mainly based on not having afterburners. But, it's hard not to like a guy who runs with that kind of authority. Reported to be a great pass blocker, and pass catcher as well. Tough call. I can pick like 7-8 backs from this draft I really like.

feltdizz
04-10-2018, 01:51 PM
3rd is too high for kelly, imo especially with the weed suspension. he is a tough runner but a tad undersized, although his OL sucked at UT

the one guy i might draft from UT this year is Rashaan Gaulden. another physical CB that has a penchant for making plays ala Cam Sutton

Will he be around in the 5th round?

If we had a 4th I would put him there but since we don't I think we could make this move if we are moving on from Bell after this year.

RuthlessBurgher
04-10-2018, 01:56 PM
3rd is too high for kelly, imo especially with the weed suspension. he is a tough runner but a tad undersized, although his OL sucked at UT

the one guy i might draft from UT this year is Rashaan Gaulden. another physical CB that has a penchant for making plays ala Cam Sutton

An interesting NFL player comparison for Gaulden from NFLDraftScout:


STRENGTHS
Finely-tuned athlete. Outstanding top-end speed. Hustle and chase skills are above average, making plays from the other side of the field. Decisive reactor and closing burst to drive on routes. Lower body burst to mirror routes in his transition. Dependable tackler and loves contact. Closes down the edge and strings out runs. Strong hands/wrists to finish tackles. Brings juice off the edge as a blitzer – zero career sacks, but routinely flushed the pocket or forced the quarterback to move his feet. Undersized, but feisty and doesn’t play small (added 35-pounds of good weight since high school). Never takes a play off or coasts – easy to appreciate his passion and desire to make plays. Junior captain and well-liked teammate (defensive back Cameron Sutton wore the No. 7 jersey in his honor during his missed 2015 season). Plays with infectious energy and nicknamed the “energizer bunny” by his roommate and teammate running back Todd Kelly. Versatile experience in the secondary, playing cornerback, nickel and safety. – Dane Brugler 1/14/2018

WEAKNESSES
Lean-muscled frame and needs to continue his body development. Consistently arrives too hot in the run game and overruns the ballcarrier. Will have his share of ankle-biting misses. Late shedding blocks on the perimeter. Unbalanced jam technique. Allows his footwork to break down at the top of routes, getting turned around and out of position. Underwhelming ball production with only one career interception, which came on a deflected pass. Immature mental discipline and needs to better control his emotions – gave a double-bird salute (Oct. 2017) to the Alabama crowd following Tennessee’s only touchdown in that game; ejected from the Kentucky game (Oct. 2017) following two personal foul penalties. Missed the 2015 season after suffering a Lisfranc injury (ruptured ligament, broken bone) to his foot during preseason practice, requiring surgery. – Dane Brugler 1/14/2018

COMPARES TO:
Morgan Burnett, Green Bay Packers – While most of his career has been at safety, Burnett has done a nice job when asked to play the nickel cornerback position. Gaulden, who was similar measureables as Burnett, always wanted to be a safety, but his value as nickel cornerback might win out once on a NFL roster.

IN OUR VIEW:
Gaulden needs to mature his discipline, but his play speed, toughness and heart are all NFL quality and foundation traits that pro coaches can mold. He can likely play outside corner, but Gaulden did his best work on tape when at the nickel cornerback position, playing inside.

Eddie Spaghetti
04-10-2018, 02:17 PM
Will he be around in the 5th round?

If we had a 4th I would put him there but since we don't I think we could make this move if we are moving on from Bell after this year.

I think he will given it's a deep RB class and he does have the weed issue. I like Kelly and the way he runs no doubt

he and gaulden would be the only 2 UT players I would like the steelers drafting this year if they decide to

plus gaulden can flip double birds at NE if we get a pick 6

steelz09
04-10-2018, 08:32 PM
Unless they are really concerned about the Bell situation, I really hope we don't draft a RB until after round 3.

Bell, Connor, Ridley is fine. RB is one of the easiest positions to start right away. We could address it next year and fill more immediate needs this year. It depends on what's avaialable though.

pittpete
04-10-2018, 09:47 PM
https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/The-Pittsburgh-Steelers-have-genuine-interest-in-Derrius-Guice-117215434
The Steelers have 'genuine interest' in Derrius Guice

SteelBucks
04-10-2018, 10:51 PM
https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/Bolt/The-Pittsburgh-Steelers-have-genuine-interest-in-Derrius-Guice-117215434
The Steelers have 'genuine interest' in Derrius Guice

The mock drafts seem to be all over the place. The latest name to surface is edge rusher Sam Hubbard from OSU in the first round. Had a great combine and would replace Dupree when ready.

Steel Maniac
04-10-2018, 11:21 PM
Right now , there’s a lot of smokescreens; your guess is as good as mine right now.

Shawn
04-11-2018, 07:30 AM
The mock drafts seem to be all over the place. The latest name to surface is edge rusher Sam Hubbard from OSU in the first round. Had a great combine and would replace Dupree when ready. I really hope we don’t draft guice and roll with a guy like Hubbard. Hubbard is a stud. My favorite Buckeye last year.

Ernie
04-11-2018, 07:46 AM
I really hope we donít draft guice and roll with a guy like Hubbard. Hubbard is a stud. My favorite Buckeye last year.

Id tend to agree with this. The RB class is deep this year. Let's get the best LB available in the 1st, and a RB on day 2. If the right RB is not there, we are okay with where we are at in terms of RB depth. If Bell leaves after this year, we can draft a RB early in the 2019 draft to go with Conner. RB is one of those plug and play positions... don't need years to develop.

Steel Maniac
04-11-2018, 08:26 AM
Unless they are really concerned about the Bell situation, I really hope we don't draft a RB until after round 3.

Bell, Connor, Ridley is fine. RB is one of the easiest positions to start right away. We could address it next year and fill more immediate needs this year. It depends on what's avaialable though.

Remember last year going into the draft, we knew Bryant was coming back and from all reports and based on his own words, we all felt Bryant would do well. But management took juju in the second round which I interpret as a real concern about Bryant’s future at that time.

My point is, we can think what we want as fans; but management (based on actions in the draft) is going to show us all what their thinking really is on Bell by where and when they take a runningback.

Eich
04-11-2018, 08:48 AM
For some reason, I can't look at the name "Guice" and not think of the pronunciation "Juice" instead of "Gice".

feltdizz
04-11-2018, 09:18 AM
Separating Fact From Fiction
Jeremy Fowler

http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/27634/separating-fact-from-fiction-with-leveon-bell-and-the-steelers

After talking with Bell multiple times since January, along with keeping a pulse on the negotiations, this is my attempt to separate fact from fiction on the Bell front:

That Bell wants $17 million a year: Here's what I know -- when I asked Bell what his per-year magic number was, he said he wouldn't take anything less than $14.5 million annually (his franchise number) over the course of a long-term deal. That's not a direct number but can be a guide here. He very well might want $17 million, but he probably wouldn't have said that if $15 million wouldn't get it done.

That Bell and the Steelers remain far apart: While they aren’t particularly close, they aren’t that far off, either. The Steelers have increased their offer from last year, which Bell said fell at an average of $13.3 million annually. But Bell asked for more before the March 6 deadline, forcing the Steelers to reassess.

The Steelers have to decide if they want to enter that $15 million stratosphere. But it’s not like the sides are operating with a $5 million gap. They are already fairly close to Bell’s sweet spot.

That there's tension on both sides: Not sure if tension is the right word, but both parties would acknowledge this hasn’t gone as planned, which creates unrest. The Steelers would prefer players not divulge negotiations through the media. They also understand Bell can say what he wants; he’s not under contract. The fact they haven’t leaked any negative press about him over the past few months can be perceived as a good sign.

Bell’s conviction about setting new precedent for running backs is real. He has shown that by essentially turning down two deals since last year. He’s willing to be patient. The Steelers took a swing at a new deal before the first franchise deadline, and now this will inevitably drag into July.

Conversely, the Steelers are concerned about league-wide precedent for a positional market that's well below $10 million per year for top backs. They recognize Bell’s two-way value as a receiver and running back but don’t want to spend wildly, even if any deal they cut is escapable in two years with minimal cap blowback.

If a summer offer doesn’t stick, the unrest might mushroom into something more deep-rooted. The Steelers will undoubtedly be salty about Bell missing a second straight training camp.

The fervor of cap-savvy Steelers fans who would rather use Bell’s money for defensive help is hard to ignore. Many loyalists to the black and gold simply don’t agree with Bell’s assessment that running backs deserve more.That Bell is a villain: Maybe he is a villain to a faction of the Steelers' fan base. He shouldn’t be. It’s his right to maximize his earning power at a time when his skill set will never be more valuable.

But the Steelers have seen business from all sides, and they know the deal here. This could very well serve as a two-year, $27 million contract that began in 2017, the first year of two franchise tags. They are good either way, and the draft will signal the Steelers' true intentions (more on that later).

That it’s all about the guarantees: Not exactly. Bell acknowledges the Steelers only do contracts a certain way, with the signing bonus the one true guarantee. In return, they typically don’t cut their good players, assuming the play stays respectable. So, the guarantees are crucial in that the signing bonus must be hefty, but Bell knows the chances of him playing three or more years under a deal are pretty good, so per-year average is just as crucial.

That this negotiation is straight from the Kirk Cousins handbook: While Washington never truly wanted a long-term marriage with Cousins, who played on two franchise tags before signing with the Minnesota Vikings, this feels different. If Bell plays out another franchise tag, the decision will be business-driven, not due to a lack of faith in Bell.

“We acknowledge that we have an interest on doing long-term business with him,” coach Mike Tomlin said late last month at the NFL owners meetings.

That the Steelers are looking for Bell’s replacement in the draft: This is more significant than some other speculation and is at least partly true. The Steelers are prepared to protect themselves, since Bell negotiations have proved difficult. The team’s interest in LSU’s Derrius Guice, for example, is genuine. His interview with the team at the combine was described to me as all hands on deck.

If the team nabs a running back during the first two days of the draft, they are officially ready for anything.

Shawn
04-11-2018, 10:00 AM
Id tend to agree with this. The RB class is deep this year. Let's get the best LB available in the 1st, and a RB on day 2. If the right RB is not there, we are okay with where we are at in terms of RB depth. If Bell leaves after this year, we can draft a RB early in the 2019 draft to go with Conner. RB is one of those plug and play positions... don't need years to develop. I have a late first/early second round grade on Hubbard. He reminds me a bit of Watt. Not crazy athletic, but smart, motor, strong, leader, always seems to be in the right position. He may be a bit of a stretch where we are drafting but from what I'm reading the Pats are salivating at a chance to draft him. And yes, this is a deep deep RB class. I love this class. Why not wait?

feltdizz
04-11-2018, 10:09 AM
I have a late first/early second round grade on Hubbard. He reminds me a bit of Watt. Not crazy athletic, but smart, motor, strong, leader, always seems to be in the right position. He may be a bit of a stretch where we are drafting but from what I'm reading the Pats are salivating at a chance to draft him. And yes, this is a deep deep RB class. I love this class. Why not wait?

It's wild how people want to let Bell go to bulk up on D because RB is easy to replace.. yet they want to draft one on day 1 or day 2?

If we aren't resigning Bell I wouldn't even trip if we waited until next year to get a legit #1 RB.

RuthlessBurgher
04-11-2018, 10:17 AM
I have a late first/early second round grade on Hubbard. He reminds me a bit of Watt. Not crazy athletic, but smart, motor, strong, leader, always seems to be in the right position. He may be a bit of a stretch where we are drafting but from what I'm reading the Pats are salivating at a chance to draft him. And yes, this is a deep deep RB class. I love this class. Why not wait?

Hubbard seems like the exact opposite of Bud Dupree...while Bud is dripping with athleticism but seems to lack some of the finer points of the game, Sam is a precise technician on the field, but is not exactly the most athletic guy out there.

I wouldn't compare Hubbard to Watt, because T.J. had some pretty remarkable Combine numbers himself in terms of the 3-cone, shuttle runs, vertical and broad jumps, etc. (in this regard, Vander Esch is the closest thing physically to Watt in this draft this year).

To me, Hubbard seems to have more Jack Ham in him than Kevin Greene, and considering how Butler has been using his OLB's lately, that might be something that we'd be interested in if the front office does not foresee much of a future for Dupree in the Black and Gold.

Slapstick
04-11-2018, 10:26 AM
If someone has a late first/early second round grade on Hubbard, how is it a stretch to draft him at #28?

SteelBucks
04-11-2018, 10:29 AM
I really hope we don’t draft guice and roll with a guy like Hubbard. Hubbard is a stud. My favorite Buckeye last year.

I’m biased but I agree. Hubbard has a motor that doesn’t stop and would easily be an upgrade over Dupree. Plug him in and get consistent production.

Ernie
04-11-2018, 03:49 PM
It's wild how people want to let Bell go to bulk up on D because RB is easy to replace.. yet they want to draft one on day 1 or day 2?

If we aren't resigning Bell I wouldn't even trip if we waited until next year to get a legit #1 RB.

No one is suggesting Bell will be easy to replace. If we can get 75-80% of the Bell's production out of the position (even if by committee) at 20% of Bell's price tag over the next 4 years or so... its well worth it. A high end draft pick would be relatively cheap on his first contract, and Conner's gonna be on his rookie deal for the next few years.

NorthCoast
04-11-2018, 07:54 PM
Pretty good summation by Bettis... I respect his opinion:

"ďItís a difficult scenario obviously,Ē Bettis said. ď(Bellís) got an understanding of what he feels his value is. The Steelers have what they believe their value is. But I think ultimately, they need to both get in a room and figure this out, because I think neither are as good without each other.ĒIn the end, Bettis said he thinks the steelers and Bell will ulruimately get a deal done by July 16."

<em><span style="color:#ffd700;"><font size="4">
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2018/04/bettis-addresses-bells-villain-tweet-believes-steelers-will-ultimately-sign-him/

Northern_Blitz
04-12-2018, 05:33 AM
Hubbard seems like the exact opposite of Bud Dupree...while Bud is dripping with athleticism but seems to lack some of the finer points of the game, Sam is a precise technician on the field, but is not exactly the most athletic guy out there.

I wouldn't compare Hubbard to Watt, because T.J. had some pretty remarkable Combine numbers himself in terms of the 3-cone, shuttle runs, vertical and broad jumps, etc. (in this regard, Vander Esch is the closest thing physically to Watt in this draft this year).

To me, Hubbard seems to have more Jack Ham in him than Kevin Greene, and considering how Butler has been using his OLB's lately, that might be something that we'd be interested in if the front office does not foresee much of a future for Dupree in the Black and Gold.

I don't follow college players, but doesn't that sound like Jarvis Jones? I think we went with Dupree in response to Jones (good technician / smart / not athletic).

Captain Lemming
04-12-2018, 07:05 AM
Separating Fact From Fiction
Jeremy Fowler

http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/27634/separating-fact-from-fiction-with-leveon-bell-and-the-steelers

After talking with Bell multiple times since January, along with keeping a pulse on the negotiations, this is my attempt to separate fact from fiction on the Bell front:

That Bell wants $17 million a year: Here's what I know -- when I asked Bell what his per-year magic number was, he said he wouldn't take anything less than $14.5 million annually (his franchise number) over the course of a long-term deal. That's not a direct number but can be a guide here. He very well might want $17 million, but he probably wouldn't have said that if $15 million wouldn't get it done.

That Bell and the Steelers remain far apart: While they arenít particularly close, they arenít that far off, either. The Steelers have increased their offer from last year, which Bell said fell at an average of $13.3 million annually. But Bell asked for more before the March 6 deadline, forcing the Steelers to reassess.

The Steelers have to decide if they want to enter that $15 million stratosphere. But itís not like the sides are operating with a $5 million gap. They are already fairly close to Bellís sweet spot.

That there's tension on both sides: Not sure if tension is the right word, but both parties would acknowledge this hasnít gone as planned, which creates unrest. The Steelers would prefer players not divulge negotiations through the media. They also understand Bell can say what he wants; heís not under contract. The fact they havenít leaked any negative press about him over the past few months can be perceived as a good sign.

Bellís conviction about setting new precedent for running backs is real. He has shown that by essentially turning down two deals since last year. Heís willing to be patient. The Steelers took a swing at a new deal before the first franchise deadline, and now this will inevitably drag into July.

Conversely, the Steelers are concerned about league-wide precedent for a positional market that's well below $10 million per year for top backs. They recognize Bellís two-way value as a receiver and running back but donít want to spend wildly, even if any deal they cut is escapable in two years with minimal cap blowback.

If a summer offer doesnít stick, the unrest might mushroom into something more deep-rooted. The Steelers will undoubtedly be salty about Bell missing a second straight training camp.

The fervor of cap-savvy Steelers fans who would rather use Bellís money for defensive help is hard to ignore. Many loyalists to the black and gold simply donít agree with Bellís assessment that running backs deserve more.That Bell is a villain: Maybe he is a villain to a faction of the Steelers' fan base. He shouldnít be. Itís his right to maximize his earning power at a time when his skill set will never be more valuable.

But the Steelers have seen business from all sides, and they know the deal here. This could very well serve as a two-year, $27 million contract that began in 2017, the first year of two franchise tags. They are good either way, and the draft will signal the Steelers' true intentions (more on that later).

That itís all about the guarantees: Not exactly. Bell acknowledges the Steelers only do contracts a certain way, with the signing bonus the one true guarantee. In return, they typically donít cut their good players, assuming the play stays respectable. So, the guarantees are crucial in that the signing bonus must be hefty, but Bell knows the chances of him playing three or more years under a deal are pretty good, so per-year average is just as crucial.

That this negotiation is straight from the Kirk Cousins handbook: While Washington never truly wanted a long-term marriage with Cousins, who played on two franchise tags before signing with the Minnesota Vikings, this feels different. If Bell plays out another franchise tag, the decision will be business-driven, not due to a lack of faith in Bell.

ďWe acknowledge that we have an interest on doing long-term business with him,Ē coach Mike Tomlin said late last month at the NFL owners meetings.

That the Steelers are looking for Bellís replacement in the draft: This is more significant than some other speculation and is at least partly true. The Steelers are prepared to protect themselves, since Bell negotiations have proved difficult. The teamís interest in LSUís Derrius Guice, for example, is genuine. His interview with the team at the combine was described to me as all hands on deck.

If the team nabs a running back during the first two days of the draft, they are officially ready for anything.

I don't disagree with most of this. I think the Steelers ARE closer to signing Bell than people think......it worries me.

I will take issue with the idea that the team is reassessing their price. Fact is Bell has no incentive whatsoever to sign now in the hopes the team will cave in. Therefore, I never saw the fact that he has not signed as a signal of a lack of interest from the team but rather as Bell trying to get the most he can in an offer. I don't know if Bell is actually unwilling to take the current offer, but why sign early when you "might" get a little more by making the team sweat? And before you dismiss that the team "sweats" this......they offered 13.5.....you don't do that if you don't REALLY want the dude.

I realty don't see the team moving much, but I see Bell as deciding whether something close to the current offer is acceptable.

I truly hope I am wrong and Bell is looking for a big move from the team which would keep us from a big mistake, I worry that HE might cave because I think a 13.5 (or 14) long term deal hurts the team.

Captain Lemming
04-12-2018, 07:25 AM
One thing that throws a wrench in my comments is the draft. If the DID go Guice in the first, I think the nego ends on a long term deal.

Something Bell needs to consider is the very real possibility that Guice is the equal to Bell as a runner. Bells greatest asset is his ability on passing downs.
If we draft Guice, Bell could become the leagues best ever 3rd down back.
That would not be to "spite" him, it would be good football to split the touches.
Bell would be our "Kamara" essentially.

But what would that do to Bell's desire to "set the market" if he is relegated to what is essentially a "backup" role to a rookie?

Part of me wonders if the very public interest in Guice while legit, is also a nego tactic with Bell, "If we draft this kid".....no long term offer.

Shawn
04-12-2018, 07:36 AM
If someone has a late first/early second round grade on Hubbard, how is it a stretch to draft him at #28? Because his grade is all over the board. Iíve seen some scouts have him as low as 3. I believe he is worth our first. Itís rumored that the Pats agree with me.

feltdizz
04-12-2018, 08:35 AM
No one is suggesting Bell will be easy to replace. If we can get 75-80% of the Bell's production out of the position (even if by committee) at 20% of Bell's price tag over the next 4 years or so... its well worth it. A high end draft pick would be relatively cheap on his first contract, and Conner's gonna be on his rookie deal for the next few years.

RB is supposedly the easiest position to fill. I don't understand how folks want D improvements but are willing to draft a RB early.

One thing we also have to worry about is the draft pick panning out. Folks automatically believe whoever we draft is a lock to produce. While we tend to pick well on offense we still miss sometimes.

feltdizz
04-12-2018, 08:39 AM
One thing that throws a wrench in my comments is the draft. If the DID go Guice in the first, I think the nego ends on a long term deal.

Something Bell needs to consider is the very real possibility that Guice is the equal to Bell as a runner. Bells greatest asset is his ability on passing downs.
If we draft Guice, Bell could become the leagues best ever 3rd down back.
That would not be to "spite" him, it would be good football to split the touches.
Bell would be our "Kamara" essentially.

But what would that do to Bell's desire to "set the market" if he is relegated to what is essentially a "backup" role to a rookie?

Part of me wonders if the very public interest in Guice while legit, is also a nego tactic with Bell, "If we draft this kid".....no long term offer.

There is no way Bell becomes a third down specialist while on the tag. IF we draft Guice or Sonny they aren't splitting carries this season. They are splitting carries with Conner and then Bell moves on.

I really don't see us drafting RB early, this year. I would hope we would be smart and wait until next year to draft a RB if Bell doesn't work out a long term deal. Realistically though I think Bell and the FO are closer than most believe and he will sign for their last offer which still pays him handsomely.

feltdizz
04-12-2018, 08:45 AM
I don't follow college players, but doesn't that sound like Jarvis Jones? I think we went with Dupree in response to Jones (good technician / smart / not athletic).

that sounds EXACTLY like Jarvis. We don't need a "high motor guy" we need a "beat the hell out of your man and sack the QB" guy.

Slapstick
04-12-2018, 09:52 AM
that sounds EXACTLY like Jarvis. We don't need a "high motor guy" we need a "beat the hell out of your man and sack the QB" guy.

Good luck getting that guy at #28...

Steel Maniac
04-12-2018, 10:05 AM
One thing that throws a wrench in my comments is the draft. If the DID go Guice in the first, I think the nego ends on a long term deal.

Something Bell needs to consider is the very real possibility that Guice is the equal to Bell as a runner. Bells greatest asset is his ability on passing downs.
If we draft Guice, Bell could become the leagues best ever 3rd down back.
That would not be to "spite" him, it would be good football to split the touches.
Bell would be our "Kamara" essentially.

But what would that do to Bell's desire to "set the market" if he is relegated to what is essentially a "backup" role to a rookie?

Part of me wonders if the very public interest in Guice while legit, is also a nego tactic with Bell, "If we draft this kid".....no long term offer.

Cap, i think the interest in Guice is both. You've got to know that Colbert doesn't like being held hostage. And Bell's twitter rants made it even worse. We are taking a runningback in this draft within our first 3 picks. If Bell can't see it or doesn't know that, then he's smoking some of the really good weed.

feltdizz
04-12-2018, 10:57 AM
Good luck getting that guy at #28...

really? we can't get an OLB who can beat his man at 28? I just think we are picking the wrong type of LB's if that's the case.

feltdizz
04-12-2018, 10:59 AM
LMAO at sugesting COlbert doesn't like being held hostage. The guy tagged Bell twice. He knew where this was going and he still tagged Bell because he values his services and hopes to get a deal done. There is no bad blood between Colbert and Bell.

Slapstick
04-12-2018, 11:09 AM
really? we can't get an OLB who can beat his man at 28? I just think we are picking the wrong type of LB's if that's the case.

At #28, the players typically have some deficiency that prohibits them from picked at the top of the first round, unless the position isn’t particularly valued (offensive guard, for example)...

Jarvis Jones was smart and productive in college, but lacked elite level athleticism...Bud Dupree has elite athleticism, but is relatively unproductive for the Steelers (although way more productive than Jarvis Jones)...TJ Watt also has elite athleticism and is smart, but only had scant experience at LB in college...

At this point, Vander Esch is a TJ Watt analogue (I believe Ruthless pointed that out) and I hope he makes it to #28...

RuthlessBurgher
04-12-2018, 11:16 AM
The prospect who may be the best example of the anti-Jarvis-Jones (long, rangy, runs fast, jumps high, etc.) comes from the same alma mater, oddly enough, Georgia Bulldog edge rusher Lorenzo Carter.

feltdizz
04-12-2018, 11:18 AM
At #28, the players typically have some deficiency that prohibits them from picked at the top of the first round, unless the position isn’t particularly valued (offensive guard, for example)...

Jarvis Jones was smart and productive in college, but lacked elite level athleticism...Bud Dupree has elite athleticism, but is relatively unproductive for the Steelers (although way more productive than Jarvis Jones)...TJ Watt also has elite athleticism and is smart, but only had scant experience at LB in college...

At this point, Vander Esch is a TJ Watt analogue (I believe Ruthless pointed that out) and I hope he makes it to #28...

I think there is talent in the first 4 rounds, it's just finding the right fit.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
04-12-2018, 11:19 AM
If LVE & EVANS are gone..You know it will be BPA. More than likely there will not be a "surprise" faller. I don't think WR, OL, CB, S on Grade with nobody falling. One exception is Reid if nobody left on list & can't trade out. If Vea or Landry there...BPA..but doubtful there. If I'm looking at Guice or Reid...That's easy. Have to take Guice over Reid.


Zero Body of work JC can feature or be healthy enough to carry load through week 1 or 2. Even when LB returns Guice Will be a contributor. Even when LB takes over Guice is your KR & you give him a couple series a game. He's also insurance for 2018 if any injury to LB or set back JC. I'm all on Board if he's the pick.


You can have Guice 5 years & franchise year. LB signs long term you have 1-2 punch & insurance for years to come. Bargain Back-up. JC as #3. Leverage against LB for longterm. Business side? 4 years into long term LB is 29..That's year for picking up Guice 5th year option. Guice will be 24 in his 4th year. Can you say stability? If Guice BPA MAKE THE PICK. Doesn't change a thing. Makes Steelers better short & long term. Gives them security & stability no matter what happens with LB. I'm in with the pick if ILB gone.


Barring injury..Biggest positional contributors for '18...ILB, OLB, RB, S, & TE. Can flop RB & S if their plan is using Burnett as Sub LB. There is your Big Board for #28. Don't know if they have any TE rated that high so I'm guessing the 1st 4. If none there & can't get out...I think that is where the "due diligence" on Rudolph comes in.

Eddie Spaghetti
04-12-2018, 11:31 AM
I just can't see a scenario where we keep LB after this year if the steelers draft guice

Oviedo
04-12-2018, 12:10 PM
At #28, the players typically have some deficiency that prohibits them from picked at the top of the first round, unless the position isn’t particularly valued (offensive guard, for example)...

Jarvis Jones was smart and productive in college, but lacked elite level athleticism...Bud Dupree has elite athleticism, but is relatively unproductive for the Steelers (although way more productive than Jarvis Jones)...TJ Watt also has elite athleticism and is smart, but only had scant experience at LB in college...

At this point, Vander Esch is a TJ Watt analogue (I believe Ruthless pointed that out) and I hope he makes it to #28...


I'm hoping LVE is there at #28 and we pick him, but I think he has shown the type of athleticism that intoxicates front offices and someone will steal him from us

RuthlessBurgher
04-12-2018, 02:09 PM
I'm hoping LVE is there at #28 and we pick him, but I think he has shown the type of athleticism that intoxicates front offices and someone will steal him from us

Last year, T.J. Watt showed the same degree of athleticism as Vander Esch did this year, plus he plays a more desireable position in the eyes of NFL talent evaluators (edge rushers are valued higher than off-the-ball ILB's), AND T.J. had the pedigree with two brothers already in the league, including the most dominant defensive player of the last decade when healthy, so everyone already knew that T.J. learned how to train properly from his brothers...and he still fell to #30. I can always count on multiple front offices from various teams being dumb, and allowing premium players to fall into our lap. I still have faith in their incompetence.

Steel Maniac
04-12-2018, 02:32 PM
Last year, T.J. Watt showed the same degree of athleticism as Vander Esch did this year, plus he plays a more desireable position in the eyes of NFL talent evaluators (edge rushers are valued higher than off-the-ball ILB's), AND T.J. had the pedigree with two brothers already in the league, including the most dominant defensive player of the last decade when healthy, so everyone already knew that T.J. learned how to train properly from his brothers...and he still fell to #30. I can always count on multiple front offices from various teams being dumb, and allowing premium players to fall into our lap. I still have faith in their incompetence.

Me too. The reason that stable front offices keep doing well is that there are a ton of other dumb front offices who draft stupidly on a consistent basis. Dumb front offices, coupled with a ton of QB's taken in the first round will land us a good player at 28. No worries.

Northern_Blitz
04-12-2018, 02:56 PM
I just can't see a scenario where we keep LB after this year if the steelers draft guice

This. And, I think they would listen for trade offers after Bell signed in that case (but it would have to be a good deal to make a deal).

feltdizz
04-12-2018, 03:04 PM
This. And, I think they would listen for trade offers after Bell signed in that case (but it would have to be a good deal to make a deal).

I guess we could at least get something in return for Bell this way.

squidkid
04-12-2018, 04:58 PM
hopefully bells agent is working the phones for a sign and trade deal

Slapstick
04-12-2018, 05:40 PM
Because his grade is all over the board. Iíve seen some scouts have him as low as 3. I believe he is worth our first. Itís rumored that the Pats agree with me.

His 40 time was not great...but his three cone drill was beastly...under 6.9 where Jarvis Jones was a 7.48...

Three cone is a decent predictor for pass rushers...

Buzz
04-13-2018, 12:16 AM
RB is supposedly the easiest position to fill. I don't understand how folks want D improvements but are willing to draft a RB early.
Who said RB is the easiest position to fill? It is probably the easiest position for a rookie to step in and contribute right away ... but if you want a very good RB, you might have to take one earlier in the draft rather than later.


One thing we also have to worry about is the draft pick panning out. Folks automatically believe whoever we draft is a lock to produce. While we tend to pick well on offense we still miss sometimes.There's always that possibility. But on the whole, a RB taken early in the draft is more likely to produce than one taken on day 3.

Shawn
04-13-2018, 06:57 AM
There is no way Bell becomes a third down specialist while on the tag. IF we draft Guice or Sonny they aren't splitting carries this season. They are splitting carries with Conner and then Bell moves on.

I really don't see us drafting RB early, this year. I would hope we would be smart and wait until next year to draft a RB if Bell doesn't work out a long term deal. Realistically though I think Bell and the FO are closer than most believe and he will sign for their last offer which still pays him handsomely.

I actually agree with this sentiment. I truly believe Guice is smoke screen and a way to make Bell uncomfortable. With a draft this deep at RB you can wait until the 5th and still grab a quality guy. Bo Scarbrough anyone? And yes I probably need to edit my mock. The more I look at this running back class the more comfortable I am waiting.

Shawn
04-13-2018, 07:03 AM
I don't follow college players, but doesn't that sound like Jarvis Jones? I think we went with Dupree in response to Jones (good technician / smart / not athletic). Trust me Hubbard is no Jarvis Jones. Hubbard is a very good player. Jones got 11 untouched sacks to boost stats. Hubbard is a beast, always in the right place, and far from lacking athleticism. He just won't wow you with cat like reflexes.

Shawn
04-13-2018, 07:04 AM
His 40 time was not great...but his three cone drill was beastly...under 6.9 where Jarvis Jones was a 7.48...

Three cone is a decent predictor for pass rushers... I mean you are a Buckeye fan...what do you think?

Shawn
04-13-2018, 07:12 AM
I'm hoping LVE is there at #28 and we pick him, but I think he has shown the type of athleticism that intoxicates front offices and someone will steal him from us I agree. Some poor team will overdraft LVE. He isn't much of a linebacker at this stage of his career. His freakish athleticism will get him drafted mid 1. I think he could be a very good linebacker with time. He shows flashes and has all the tools but the dude is raw and doesn't play big. He needs at minimum of 2 seasons I believe before he is ready.

But I get it...if you pull up his youtube highlights, it's like WOW!. When he flashes its impressive and you see the potential. But, if you watch full games...like him on every play. You see how many times a guard puts him on his butt. You see how often he gets locked up and washed out of plays. How often he gets overaggressive and puts himself out of plays. I've done alot of scouting on LVE trying to figure out what the scouts know that I don't. I just see a very raw, young linebacker with a crazy ceiling who isn't starter ready. And frankly, we need a starter at ILB. Now...while we still have Ben.

Shawn
04-13-2018, 07:18 AM
One thing that throws a wrench in my comments is the draft. If the DID go Guice in the first, I think the nego ends on a long term deal.

Something Bell needs to consider is the very real possibility that Guice is the equal to Bell as a runner. Bells greatest asset is his ability on passing downs.
If we draft Guice, Bell could become the leagues best ever 3rd down back.
That would not be to "spite" him, it would be good football to split the touches.
Bell would be our "Kamara" essentially.

But what would that do to Bell's desire to "set the market" if he is relegated to what is essentially a "backup" role to a rookie?

Part of me wonders if the very public interest in Guice while legit, is also a nego tactic with Bell, "If we draft this kid".....no long term offer. Exactly, the draft will tell us much. If they roll with a first round RB which I truly hope they don't do. Bell is done.

Shawn
04-13-2018, 07:21 AM
that sounds EXACTLY like Jarvis. We don't need a "high motor guy" we need a "beat the hell out of your man and sack the QB" guy. That's exactly what Hubbard does. He uses his hands as well as anyone in college. He's very strong and fairly quick. He sorts through trash and disengages. I mean he's a Buckeye...I've seen the guy play every down. The guy is legit.

Slapstick
04-13-2018, 07:47 AM
I mean you are a Buckeye fan...what do you think?

I guess I didn’t look at enough draft reports about him, because I never thought he was anything but a first round pick...when you said someone gave him a round 3 grade or that he might be considered a reach at 1-28, I was surprised.