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Disco1981
02-19-2018, 10:34 AM
Tomorrow is the 20th...What's everyones opinion, Does Bell get tagged?

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 10:36 AM
more than likely yes, but I think they work out a deal this year

Ghost
02-19-2018, 11:02 AM
Ed Bouchette (on 2/16) – said Steelers “truly seem intent on keeping le’Veon Bell and, indeed, signing him to a long-term deal.”

Here’s how it could go down:

Say they were willing to give Bell an average of $15 million over four years or $60 million total. It could break down like this: $24 million to sign, $1 million salary this year and subsequent salaries of $10 million, $12 million, $13 million.

The $24 million bonus would count $6 million annually against the cap over each of the four years. So his cap this year would be $7 million — that $6 million from the bonus plus the $1 million salary.


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/02/16/leveon-bell-contract-signing-salary-cap-restructuring-cutting-kevin-colbert/stories/201802160146

Steel Maniac
02-19-2018, 11:14 AM
Oh..he gets tagged. But is a long term deal done before the draft?

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 11:38 AM
Ed Bouchette (on 2/16) – said Steelers “truly seem intent on keeping le’Veon Bell and, indeed, signing him to a long-term deal.”

Here’s how it could go down:

Say they were willing to give Bell an average of $15 million over four years or $60 million total. It could break down like this: $24 million to sign, $1 million salary this year and subsequent salaries of $10 million, $12 million, $13 million.

The $24 million bonus would count $6 million annually against the cap over each of the four years. So his cap this year would be $7 million — that $6 million from the bonus plus the $1 million salary.


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/02/16/leveon-bell-contract-signing-salary-cap-restructuring-cutting-kevin-colbert/stories/201802160146

I don't know how the hell they finesse these cap numbers but that versions sounds pretty good to me.

Oviedo
02-19-2018, 12:44 PM
I don't know how the hell they finesse these cap numbers but that versions sounds pretty good to me.

Both doable and manageable within the cap structure despite the "gloom and doom' on the board

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 12:53 PM
Both doable and manageable within the cap structure despite the "gloom and doom' on the board

when I see these cap numbers I'm wondering if folks just don't understand (myself included) how it's possible to make this work.

I'm sure some will say 7 mill could still be used to find the next Mean Joe Greene the draft or FA but man, seems like folks aren't nearly as good at this GM stuff as Colbert and company.

steeler_george
02-19-2018, 01:13 PM
Ed Bouchette (on 2/16) – said Steelers “truly seem intent on keeping le’Veon Bell and, indeed, signing him to a long-term deal.”

Here’s how it could go down:

Say they were willing to give Bell an average of $15 million over four years or $60 million total. It could break down like this: $24 million to sign, $1 million salary this year and subsequent salaries of $10 million, $12 million, $13 million.

The $24 million bonus would count $6 million annually against the cap over each of the four years. So his cap this year would be $7 million — that $6 million from the bonus plus the $1 million salary.


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/02/16/leveon-bell-contract-signing-salary-cap-restructuring-cutting-kevin-colbert/stories/201802160146

This is post of the year!

I never ever thought on how easy to resign Bell and still have money for FA this year!

Slapstick
02-19-2018, 01:53 PM
If the Steelers do give him that kind of contract, we had better hope Bell stays healthy...because that is a huge dead cap charge...

Oviedo
02-19-2018, 01:59 PM
This is post of the year!

I never ever thought on how easy to resign Bell and still have money for FA this year!

That is why the Steelers have done everything they have had to in order to retain Omar Khan. The guy is a salary cap "savant"

Oviedo
02-19-2018, 02:01 PM
If the Steelers do give him that kind of contract, we had better hope Bell stays healthy...because that is a huge dead cap charge...

Not really a problem because we have read on this board that we can get a kid out of college that could replace Bell at RB. So we just follow the advice of the experts we read here and if Bell gets injured long term we just give the ball to Connor and draft a college RB and nothing would change

phillyesq
02-19-2018, 03:07 PM
This is post of the year!

I never ever thought on how easy to resign Bell and still have money for FA this year!

That would help the Steelers this year, but backloading the deal that much really complicates things down the road. That would put the Steelers at $150 million for 2019 with just 25 players under contract. You'd probably want to add a 5th year to that deal.

Given the workload he has had already, I really don't want to have Bell on the roster with a cap figure of $19 million in his age 29 season. He showed less burst and some signs of slowing already last year.

Buzz
02-19-2018, 03:07 PM
If the Steelers do give him that kind of contract, we had better hope Bell stays healthy...because that is a huge dead cap charge...Awfully big risk, IMO, to take on that kind of dead cap charge for a back who is used as heavily as we use Bell.

fordfixer
02-19-2018, 05:11 PM
Not really a problem because we have read on this board that we can get a kid out of college that could replace Bell at RB. So we just follow the advice of the experts we read here and if Bell gets injured long term we just give the ball to Connor and draft a college RB and nothing would change
Well there is that

squidkid
02-19-2018, 05:43 PM
unless there are clauses that protect the organization, paying bell is going to be a huge mistake.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
02-20-2018, 01:25 AM
Ed Bouchette (on 2/16) – said Steelers “truly seem intent on keeping le’Veon Bell and, indeed, signing him to a long-term deal.”

Here’s how it could go down:

Say they were willing to give Bell an average of $15 million over four years or $60 million total. It could break down like this: $24 million to sign, $1 million salary this year and subsequent salaries of $10 million, $12 million, $13 million.

The $24 million bonus would count $6 million annually against the cap over each of the four years. So his cap this year would be $7 million — that $6 million from the bonus plus the $1 million salary.


http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2018/02/16/leveon-bell-contract-signing-salary-cap-restructuring-cutting-kevin-colbert/stories/201802160146

Of course everyone loves the $7M cap hit for Bell in '18, but do you also like $16M, $18M, and $19M the following three years? When you sign a guy for $60M and he plays all four years then eventually all of the $60M must be accounted for on the cap.

Factor in the kicking down the road of money for Tuitt and Decastro and eventually there is a piper that must be paid

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
02-20-2018, 01:36 AM
Not really a problem because we have read on this board that we can get a kid out of college that could replace Bell at RB. So we just follow the advice of the experts we read here and if Bell gets injured long term we just give the ball to Connor and draft a college RB and nothing would change

Nobody has said that you can simply pluck a kid out of college and *POOF* Bell is replaced. The legitimate question is...

Is it a better situation to have Bell on your team at the "pay the man" cost of approx. $16M per season OR bring in a lesser / cheaper FA RB like a Carlos Hyde / Dion Lewis / Isaiah Crowell who will cost an average of about $10M per year less OR draft a RB to pair with Conner who will cost even cheaper than that.

The savings from not signing Bell goes either towards the D, or in making sure that a handle is kept on the cap situation.

I have gone back and forth myself on this, but it is strictly a cap concern. Don't make it seem that anyone is arguing that not signing Bell is an even up football decision.

Captain Lemming
02-20-2018, 02:36 AM
Nobody has said that you can simply pluck a kid out of college and *POOF* Bell is replaced. The legitimate question is...

Is it a better situation to have Bell on your team at the "pay the man" cost of approx. $16M per season OR bring in a lesser / cheaper FA RB like a Carlos Hyde / Dion Lewis / Isaiah Crowell who will cost an average of about $10M per year less OR draft a RB to pair with Conner who will cost even cheaper than that.

The savings from not signing Bell goes either towards the D, or in making sure that a handle is kept on the cap situation.

I have gone back and forth myself on this, but it is strictly a cap concern. Don't make it seem that anyone is arguing that not signing Bell is an even up football decision.

Exactly!!!
If there’s no cap SURE sign Bell, I ain’t trying to save Rooneys money.
The question is, would THE TEAM be better equipped to win a championship if that huge dollar figure was spent elsewhere.

feltdizz
02-20-2018, 09:18 AM
Of course everyone loves the $7M cap hit for Bell in '18, but do you also like $16M, $18M, and $19M the following three years? When you sign a guy for $60M and he plays all four years then eventually all of the $60M must be accounted for on the cap.

Factor in the kicking down the road of money for Tuitt and Decastro and eventually there is a piper that must be paid

I prefer to pay the piper after Ben retires. It’s the perfect way to get a high pick for our next franchise QB.

Oviedo
02-20-2018, 09:26 AM
I prefer to pay the piper after Ben retires. It’s the perfect way to get a high pick for our next franchise QB.

I have to say I agree

feltdizz
02-20-2018, 09:27 AM
Nobody has said that you can simply pluck a kid out of college and *POOF* Bell is replaced. The legitimate question is...

Is it a better situation to have Bell on your team at the "pay the man" cost of approx. $16M per season OR bring in a lesser / cheaper FA RB like a Carlos Hyde / Dion Lewis / Isaiah Crowell who will cost an average of about $10M per year less OR draft a RB to pair with Conner who will cost even cheaper than that.

The savings from not signing Bell goes either towards the D, or in making sure that a handle is kept on the cap situation.

I have gone back and forth myself on this, but it is strictly a cap concern. Don't make it seem that anyone is arguing that not signing Bell is an even up football decision.

I don’t care about te cap short term. The goal is to win a SB while Ben is here. I seriously doubt Ben wants to sign Hyde or some other unknown to protect him for these last 3 years.

Move as much money around as possible, get as many pieces as possible and win NOW!!!

We can dump other players and restructure to get to the same place folks want to get without Bell. What you have to factor in is how much of a playmaker Bell is to our offense.

We can depend on AB, we can depend on JuJu. We cannot depend on Bryant, Conner and Vance on offense. They haven’ my shown enough IMO.

Wull teams stack rhe the box with Conner and a draft pick or Hyde? Can Hyde or Lewis pick up our offense and be ready on day 1?

If our offense stinks without Bell and we start out 1-3 is it a win because our cap is straight?

papillon
02-20-2018, 09:35 AM
Non-exclusive franchise, let him negotiate his rate, he may find that what he believes he is worth isn't what the NFL believes he is worth. If it ends up being 15 million per and you're willing to make the necessary changes to your team's financial situation then sign him, if it turns out to be less than 15 million per, great, sign him for less, if it turns out to be more than 15 million let him walk or decide if he's worth it to your team. It makes no sense to me to just go ahead and pay Bell what he's asking and limit what you can do to make the team a SB team. The defense has to get better. Can that happen paying Bell 60 million?

Pappy

SanAntonioSteelerFan
02-20-2018, 10:28 AM
I don't care about the cap short term. The goal is to win a SB while Ben is here. ...

Yup. In my mind the question is: if we let Bell go: can the money saved get us someone (or two) on D *this year* to make the D SB material? Draft picks might get us there in two years ... but Ben's window could be closed by then, we can't wait that long.

The other thing to consider is whether the O can withstand the loss of Bell. Sure we'd miss him, but how much worse off will we be? IMO we've got enough superstar skill players to keep the ball going downfield even without Bell, but only if his blitz pickup skills are adequately replaced.

How hard is it to find a good backfield blocker?

williar
02-20-2018, 10:39 AM
Dion Lewis was a scrub before he got to NE, talent doesn't always translate well coming from their system. And please calm the expectation from Connor, he had like, twenty carries for how many yards before tearing up a knee?

I acknowledge the fact that LB may not be resigned - but please don't throw in some other teams reject as a replacement. In the words of Stephen A. Smith, that is just disrespectful!

phillyesq
02-20-2018, 11:07 AM
Non-exclusive franchise, let him negotiate his rate, he may find that what he believes he is worth isn't what the NFL believes he is worth. If it ends up being 15 million per and you're willing to make the necessary changes to your team's financial situation then sign him, if it turns out to be less than 15 million per, great, sign him for less, if it turns out to be more than 15 million let him walk or decide if he's worth it to your team. It makes no sense to me to just go ahead and pay Bell what he's asking and limit what you can do to make the team a SB team. The defense has to get better. Can that happen paying Bell 60 million?

Pappy

Agree. I wouldn't let Bell go for nothing, but if you get picks in return, you use one pick to replace Bell and another to help the defense. And you can use the money saved from Bell to add either a veteran RB or a veteran on defense.

Steel Maniac
02-20-2018, 11:18 AM
I don’t care about te cap short term. The goal is to win a SB while Ben is here. I seriously doubt Ben wants to sign Hyde or some other unknown to protect him for these last 3 years.

Move as much money around as possible, get as many pieces as possible and win NOW!!!

We can dump other players and restructure to get to the same place folks want to get without Bell. What you have to factor in is how much of a playmaker Bell is to our offense.

We can depend on AB, we can depend on JuJu. We cannot depend on Bryant, Conner and Vance on offense. They haven’ my shown enough IMO.

Wull teams stack rhe the box with Conner and a draft pick or Hyde? Can Hyde or Lewis pick up our offense and be ready on day 1?

If our offense stinks without Bell and we start out 1-3 is it a win because our cap is straight?

Carlos Hyde is a very good runningback. He's played on a crappy team with a crappy O-line and no real QB. If he were here, Hyde would look like a top 5 runningback in the NFL. Because we have an O-line and we have a passing game that keeps defenses from bringing the safety down in the box.

You guys are not valuing how good our O-line really is.

Steel Maniac
02-20-2018, 11:19 AM
Agree. I wouldn't let Bell go for nothing, but if you get picks in return, you use one pick to replace Bell and another to help the defense. And you can use the money saved from Bell to add either a veteran RB or a veteran on defense.

I'm sure our front office is weighing all of these options. At least I hope they are.

RuthlessBurgher
02-20-2018, 11:35 AM
Tomorrow is the 20th...What's everyones opinion, Does Bell get tagged?

February 20th is the first day that players can be tagged this offseason.

There is a two-week window to apply franchise or trainsition tags starting today.

The ultimate decision must be made by 4:00 p.m. EST on March 6th, 2018.

Slapstick
02-20-2018, 11:40 AM
If Bell isn't with the team, I might pursue Dion Lewis and pair him with James Conner...and then I would probably also draft another RB...

Lewis is a guy who can be a legitimate run/pass option out of the backfield as well as a RB who can split out wide and catch the ball...I think if Le'Veon goes elsewhere, that is the aspect that the offense will miss...I think Lewis would replace that in our offense better than Hyde (and I'm a Buckeyes fan)...

RuthlessBurgher
02-20-2018, 11:50 AM
This is post of the year!

I never ever thought on how easy to resign Bell and still have money for FA this year!

I suggested the following contract structure back on 1/25/18:


Which side would balk at a deal structured something like this?

A 3 year deal worth $40M with $18M in an upfront signing bonus. Something like base salaries of $1M in year 1 (2018 cap hit $7M), $9M in year 2 (2019 cap hit $15M), and $12 in year 3 (2020 cap hit $18M).

Then make maybe $5-6M of his 2019 salary due as a roster bonus at the beginning of the league year. This gives Bell security beyond just the first year, because if the Steelers would take a $12M dead money cap hit if they cut him in early March 2019, and a $18-$19M dead money cap hit if they cut him later that offseason. The team would much rather keep him in year 2 of the deal for a $15M cap hit in 2019 than cut him for either of those bloated dead money cap hits.

Maybe another $2-3M of this 2020 salary due at as a roster bonus at the beginning of the league year. Going into the last year of the deal, if the team wanted to cut him, they'd face a $6 dead money cap hit if they cut him in early March 2020, and a $8-9M dead money cap hit if they cut him later that offseason. At that point, the team could decide if Bell would be worth an $18M cap hit in 2020 (maybe the overall salary cap goes up significantly over the next 2 seasons, or maybe Ben retires and we have more room available), and if not, they could save $12M on the cap by cutting him at the start of the league year ($6M dead money cap hit). If the team cut him going into that last year of the deal, he'd still be only 27 years old and free to sign anywhere else as a free agent.


http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/showthread.php/47591-Bell-and-the-franchise-tag/page4

squidkid
02-20-2018, 12:31 PM
let bell walk. the team will be better for it.
i cant believe some are so infatuated with bell that they will risk the near and far success of this team just so he gets paid.

feltdizz
02-20-2018, 12:32 PM
Carlos Hyde is a very good runningback. He's played on a crappy team with a crappy O-line and no real QB. If he were here, Hyde would look like a top 5 runningback in the NFL. Because we have an O-line and we have a passing game that keeps defenses from bringing the safety down in the box.

You guys are not valuing how good our O-line really is.

its a combination of things. We really have no idea how another RB will look behind our OL for a whole season.

Even with D’Angelo who led the league the first 3 games in 2016. He was great vs the Redskins but he only averaged 2.7 a carry vs Philly and Cincinnati.

Steel Maniac
02-20-2018, 12:35 PM
its a combination of things. We really have no idea how another RB will look behind our OL for a whole season.

Even with D’Angelo who led the league the first 3 games in 2016. He was great vs the Redskins but he only averaged 2.7 a carry vs Philly and Cincinnati.

I strongly disagree. At one point deangelo was the # 1 runningback in football for the 3-4 weeks he was the starter. Because the O-line and passing game is that good.

Northern_Blitz
02-20-2018, 01:42 PM
I prefer to pay the piper after Ben retires. It’s the perfect way to get a high pick for our next franchise QB.

Me too. But I also want to maintain flexibility while he's still playing.

Let's say we sign Bell to this monster deal and he has a major injury that costs him about a season's worth of games while Ben is still playing. I think that this is not an unreasonable situation given that he plays the most physically damaging position in the league and has dramatically more touches than anyone else over the last 2 years.

Then we still have to replace* Bell on the cheap, but we don't get the improvement on D.

And the significant injury doesn't even have to be to Bell. Having so many huge contracts makes it harder to fill gaps elsewhere on the team. We're seeing that now with Shazier's injury.

For the sake of flexibility, I'd much rather have Bell on the tag this year at at $15M cap hit vs. an $8M cap hit and >$15M for the three following years.

The only way I'd do a long term deal like this is if Ben told me that it was his last season. Then, (1) I sign this deal with Bell, (2) extend everyone to make room for some help on D. This would make the few years after Ben tough...but I'd live with that and try to use it to draft another franchise QB.

That being said, the Steelers have done a really good job with the cap in general. If they thing this is the best way forward, it's probably because they know more than I do.

* replace = get someone to play RB. I don't think a single RB will replace Bell's production.

Northern_Blitz
02-20-2018, 01:50 PM
February 20th is the first day that players can be tagged this offseason.

There is a two-week window to apply franchise or trainsition tags starting today.

The ultimate decision must be made by 4:00 p.m. EST on March 6th, 2018.

If the FO is serious about trying to negotiate a long term deal, Bell will be tagged at the last possible moment. If he's tagged earlier than that, I think it means that the FO thinks they're at an impasse.

SteelCrazy
02-20-2018, 04:12 PM
I don't know how the hell they finesse these cap numbers but that versions sounds pretty good to me.

We better win it this coming season, because after that, going by this articles numbers, in 2019 he would count 16 mil cap wise, then 18 mil, and 19 mil. We may not have enough money to field a defense after the 2018 season.

feltdizz
02-20-2018, 04:21 PM
I strongly disagree. At one point deangelo was the # 1 runningback in football for the 3-4 weeks he was the starter. Because the O-line and passing game is that good.

Its because he ran all over the a Redskins in the first game for 155 yards.

Next game he had 32 carries for 94 yards. 2.9 ypc

3rd game 8 carries 21 yard season. 2.6 ypc

just sayin’

one good game and then his numbers weren’t as impressive. I think the #1 rushing stay that early in the season isn’t nearly as impressive once you step back and look at the numbers.

Its like having the #1 D in the first 3 games because you had one great game. It’s way too early in a season to brag about rankings.

feltdizz
02-20-2018, 04:26 PM
We better win it this coming season, because after that, going by this articles numbers, in 2019 he would count 16 mil cap wise, then 18 mil, and 19 mil. We may not have enough money to field a defense after the 2018 season.

We may have to sell the stadium.

Seriously, we are pretty good at this when it comes to the cap. I’m sure we will make it work.

I think some of you are being a little sensational when it comes to cap numbers like it all falls apart if we sign Bell.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
02-20-2018, 04:51 PM
I think the Steelers tag and/or sign Bell long term. It's a risk if they do & if they don't. Since "window" is a variable...I think he will be here. Don't know if I agree or not but if they hit in the draft early on defense it will look like the right decision.

Northern_Blitz
02-20-2018, 05:55 PM
We may have to sell the stadium.

Seriously, we are pretty good at this when it comes to the cap. I’m sure we will make it work.

I think some of you are being a little sensational when it comes to cap numbers like it all falls apart if we sign Bell.

I think that if we signed him at those numbers, and he played 4 years without getting hurt (or at least the first 3), and we hit on at least two young defenders who were good right out of the shoot (while they play under market on their first contract) we'd be OK for as long as Ben is here.

I think that's a bunch of risk to take and that we have a surer path to being good for the rest of Ben's career if we go with a cheaper option at RB (when we already have a very good O) and improve the D (where we're not good without Shazier). I think that we need to pick up impact players at ILB and FS this year. That might happen in the draft, but I think that the odds are pretty long that we get guys who can start right away at both positions.

I think that my opinion would be different if Shazier was playing and we only had to get a FS (with Mitchell as a fall back worst case). Then we'd still have a competitive D. But if we put out the same D we had at the end of last season (or swap Spence with Matakavitch), I think that we'd be wasting one of Ben's last seasons.

phillyesq
02-20-2018, 06:08 PM
Its because he ran all over the a Redskins in the first game for 155 yards.

Next game he had 32 carries for 94 yards. 2.9 ypc

3rd game 8 carries 21 yard season. 2.6 ypc

just sayin’

one good game and then his numbers weren’t as impressive. I think the #1 rushing stay that early in the season isn’t nearly as impressive once you step back and look at the numbers.

Its like having the #1 D in the first 3 games because you had one great game. It’s way too early in a season to brag about rankings.

If we're going to play the opponent game, wasn't one of those games against the Eagles?

NorthCoast
02-20-2018, 07:38 PM
Its because he ran all over the a Redskins in the first game for 155 yards.

Next game he had 32 carries for 94 yards. 2.9 ypc

3rd game 8 carries 21 yard season. 2.6 ypc

just sayin’

one good game and then his numbers weren’t as impressive. I think the #1 rushing stay that early in the season isn’t nearly as impressive once you step back and look at the numbers.

Its like having the #1 D in the first 3 games because you had one great game. It’s way too early in a season to brag about rankings.In the most important game of the Steelers season Bell had 29 touches for 155 yds. Brown had 11 touches for 132 yds, and McDonald 16 touches for 112 yds. Where was the most value?

fordfixer
02-20-2018, 09:13 PM
Both doable and manageable within the cap structure despite the "gloom and doom' on the board



https://youtu.be/ZAAKPJEq1Ew

pittpete
02-20-2018, 09:25 PM
With Bell or without...
We aren't winning anything unless we get the defense worked out...

feltdizz
02-20-2018, 11:12 PM
If we're going to play the opponent game, wasn't one of those games against the Eagles?
It sure was. Your point?

My point is the OL being praised for DW being the leading rusher the first 3 games is fools gold.

Our OL isn’t bad but I’m not sure it’s as good as folks say it is when they use DW’s production early in the season.

I’m not really a fan of rankings that early in the season.

feltdizz
02-20-2018, 11:21 PM
In the most important game of the Steelers season Bell had 29 touches for 155 yds. Brown had 11 touches for 132 yds, and McDonald 16 touches for 112 yds. Where was the most value?

not sure what you mean by value but..

I would say AB then Bell and McDonald shouldn’t even be included in the discussion. Vance had most of his catches late in the game underneath.

Steel Maniac
02-21-2018, 01:24 AM
With Bell or without...
We aren't winning anything unless we get the defense worked out...

And that’s the bottom line

steeler_george
02-21-2018, 11:04 AM
Well, the target day 20th of Feb went by and not a single word...

Steel Maniac
02-21-2018, 11:12 AM
Front office is looking at ALL their options. And I don't blame them.