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steeler_george
02-18-2018, 07:57 AM
Jason La Conforna is reporting that they might want Haden to take a pay cut, or could be looking to restructure his contract, or a cap casualty.

Although he is our best DB, there could be a case, that makes sense, sort of how people want to cut ties with Bell to save money to improve the defense. Just insert Haden instead of Bell.


Just say we cut ( numbers are not exact):
Haden saves 4million
Mitchel saves 5 million
Gay saves 2 million
Sensabaugh 2 million
Wilcox saves 3 million

That is 17 million, maybe enough to sign BOTH an ILB such as Avery Williams/Brown and Safety like Reid, Joyner,Boston.

Then we can go in the draft looking for BPA and not draft through desperation seeking ILB and Safety

Add two of those position players, and an improved Sutton, Burns, and Hilton and maybe a star from the draft ( OLB, NT, or even CB, ILB ) and depth to improve the Defense.

feltdizz
02-18-2018, 08:00 AM
I would prefer we restructure and keep him.

I’m not a fan of moving on from really good players in hopes of acquiring really good players.

Iron City Inc.
02-18-2018, 08:19 AM
I would prefer we restructure and keep him.

I’m not a fan of moving on from really good players in hopes of acquiring really good players.

Totally agree with Feltdizz. We aquired a good chess piece in Haden, He's a keeper.

Ernie
02-18-2018, 08:24 AM
Hopefully they restructure him and allow him to retire a Steeler. We will not find his equal in free agency or the draft this year.... and defense is not an area we can afford to regress at any position.

phillyesq
02-18-2018, 11:04 AM
I would prefer we restructure and keep him.

I’m not a fan of moving on from really good players in hopes of acquiring really good players.

Agree. If the Steelers release Haden, he saves $8 million against the cap, but creates a big dead money hit of $3.8 million. A restructure without an extension would be hard because you'd shift more money into next year and end up with him having a $15 million cap number in 2019 or an $8 million dollar dead money hit.

An extension of a year or 2, with a lot of this year's salary shifted to a bonus, could be an easy way to lower his cap hit.

If you look at the numbers on games Haden played vs those he didn't, there was a huge difference. I'd rather keep Haden in the fold - he brought some certainty and reliabiliy to the secondary.

birtikidis
02-18-2018, 11:17 AM
I read yesterday that Haden has agreed to take a pay cut. I think it was on Steelersdepot but can't remember where.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-18-2018, 11:32 AM
I doubt the steelers cut him but the question becomes is he 9 million dollars better than cam sutton. Haden had a good but nowhere near great season and is not a #1 corner in this league anymore

decent starter and not much else. if Sutton can be that, then there is a discussion to be had

Ernie
02-18-2018, 11:46 AM
I doubt the steelers cut him but the question becomes is he 9 million dollars better than cam sutton. Haden had a good but nowhere near great season and is not a #1 corner in this league anymore

decent starter and not much else. if Sutton can be that, then there is a discussion to be had

I thought he was having a great season prior to breaking his leg.... and (as has been discussed on here previously) he meant a lot more to the secondary than just his physical ability. Simply stated, JH made everyone around him better through his leadership. JH was BY FAR the best CB on our team this year, and will not be replaced via the draft or free agency. Although I believe Cam Sutton has a bright future on this team, Haden absolutely needs to be restructured and retained.

Starlifter
02-18-2018, 11:49 AM
We have to keep him. I look at last year's performance under the prism that the first half of the season he was learning to get in sync with the rest of the team, the second half he was recovering from a broken leg - and despite those two rather significant factors, had a strong year. I think a second healthy year will show him to be even better than what we've already seen.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-18-2018, 11:52 AM
i wouldn't say great, but he was the best CB we had. finished the season with 20 tackles, around 6 PD, and 1 int.

also has never played a full season in his career. he's not going anywhere, most likely but the $$ is significant.

if Sutton can play, he needs to get on the field. maybe he takes burns spot if artie struggles again

Ernie
02-18-2018, 11:59 AM
i wouldn't say great, but he was the best CB we had. finished the season with 20 tackles, around 6 PD, and 1 int.

also has never played a full season in his career. he's not going anywhere, most likely but the $$ is significant.

if Sutton can play, he needs to get on the field. maybe he takes burns spot if artie struggles again

He was pretty well "Lock down" as far as I'm concerned.... to the point that opposing QBs went away from him. Having Haden also allowed Artie to stay on his side.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-18-2018, 12:12 PM
we will have to disagree then as i didnt see a lockdown corner

feltdizz
02-18-2018, 12:16 PM
He was pretty well "Lock down" as far as I'm concerned.... to the point that opposing QBs went away from him. Having Haden also allowed Artie to stay on his side.

He was lock down until he played zone. He struggled in the zone a few times but overall he was a pretty impressive #1 CB.


Teams didnt throw to his side that much in man (at least that’s who it appeared) and I think it’s also why Burns was burned more often.

Why go at Haden when you can pick on Burns?

I say restructure and keep him.

Ernie
02-18-2018, 12:16 PM
we will have to disagree then as i didnt see a lockdown corner

Everyone on this board (other than maybe yourself) sees him as a solid #1, and BY FAR the best CB currently on the roster.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-18-2018, 12:18 PM
and everyone on this board has a tendency to overrate steelers players at times

Haden is a #1 for us because we don't have much at CB,IMO

Ernie
02-18-2018, 12:18 PM
He was lock down until he played zone. He struggled in the zone a few times but overall he was a pretty impressive #1 CB.


Teams didnt throw to his side that much in man (at least that’s who it appeared) and I think it’s also why Burns was burned more often.

Why go at Haden when you can pick on Burns?

I say restructure and keep him.

Exactly right... he was brought in to improve our "Man defense"... in which he certainly did that. You also make my point perfectly with the statement "Why go at Haden when you can pick on Burns?"...

Ernie
02-18-2018, 12:20 PM
and everyone on this board has a tendency to overrate steelers players at times

Haden is a #1 for us because we don't have much at CB,IMO

Lets see if anyone on here will support your ideas on Haden... Im open to the discussion. There were over a dozen teams wanting him when he was cut from CLE. That speaks volumes in itself.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-18-2018, 12:21 PM
i really don't care if they do or not. I give my opinions and other people give theirs

it's a message board

Ernie
02-18-2018, 12:23 PM
And I respect that. I think you are wrong (as do many others)... that's simply my opinion though. No disrespect intended.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-18-2018, 12:26 PM
none taken

like I said, I believe Haden to be a solid starter. whos to say Sutton can't be that for alot less

it's probably a moot point anyway as I doubt he goes anywhere

Ernie
02-18-2018, 12:30 PM
none taken

like I said, I believe Haden to be a solid starter. whos to say Sutton can't be that for alot less

He didn't draw the interest he did from over a dozen teams... to be their #2. Not at 9+ million a year. Sutton and Burns can compete for the #2. Sutton's nowhere near Haden's level right now either....

Eddie Spaghetti
02-18-2018, 12:42 PM
when i think #1 CBs I think of guys like Jacksonville has. true playmakers

also, if haden was as good as everyone here seems to believe, why would the team ask him to take a paycut?

pittpete
02-18-2018, 01:55 PM
Everyone on this board (other than maybe yourself) sees him as a solid #1, and BY FAR the best CB currently on the roster.

Haden is not the problem on defense...IMO he's a solid CB that suffered an unfortunate injury.

Ernie
02-18-2018, 02:19 PM
when i think #1 CBs I think of guys like Jacksonville has. true playmakers

also, if haden was as good as everyone here seems to believe, why would the team ask him to take a paycut?

Jacksonville's CB (Ramsey) is arguably the best in the league.
As for asking Haden to take a "Pay cut"... or restructure...they are asking him for the same reason they asked DeCastro and Tuitt... the same reason they will likely ask Ben to restructure...etc.

Steel Maniac
02-18-2018, 02:24 PM
I would prefer we restructure and keep him.

I’m not a fan of moving on from really good players in hopes of acquiring really good players.

I too would like to restructure because it has been hard for us to find competent cornerback play and we have a decent to good one in Haden. If we were as adept at drafting cornerbacks as we are with wide receivers, then I'd think differently but we've been terrible at drafting cornerbacks. So lets keep the best one we have and hope to improve either thru free agency or the draft.

Steel Maniac
02-18-2018, 02:25 PM
Jacksonville's CB (Ramsey) is arguably the best in the league.
As for asking Haden to take a "Pay cut"... or restructure...they are asking him for the same reason they asked DeCastro and Tuitt... the same reason they will likely ask Ben to restructure...etc.

Ben and Antonio Brown are both about to get 5 mil & 6 mil roster bonuses respectively. WIth that said, I'd love to see them both restructure. They are being treated well so I'd like to see them do something that will give us financial options.

Steel Maniac
02-18-2018, 02:28 PM
He was lock down until he played zone. He struggled in the zone a few times but overall he was a pretty impressive #1 CB.


Teams didnt throw to his side that much in man (at least that’s who it appeared) and I think it’s also why Burns was burned more often.

Why go at Haden when you can pick on Burns?

I say restructure and keep him.

Yeah, he did struggle in zone. We need to go way less zone going forward. You play to the players you have strengths. And doing more man allows us to be better against the upper echelon passers in the league (Brees, Brady, Rodgers). Running QB's you play more zone.

Ernie
02-18-2018, 02:33 PM
I too would like to restructure because it has been hard for us to find competent cornerback play and we have a decent to good one in Haden. If we as adept at drafting cornerbacks as we are with wide receivers, then I'd think differently but we've been terrible at drafting cornerbacks. So lets keep the best one we have and hope to improve either thru free agency or the draft.

Honestly, I think if we keep Haden... we are pretty solid with what we've got. Need to replace Mitchell. Other than that, we have 4 talented young guys (Burns, Davis, Sutton, Allen) that should all improve in 2018.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-18-2018, 02:37 PM
Jacksonville's CB (Ramsey) is arguably the best in the league.
As for asking Haden to take a "Pay cut"... or restructure...they are asking him for the same reason they asked DeCastro and Tuitt... the same reason they will likely ask Ben to restructure...etc.

and I don't know if that's the case or not. the guys you mention are cornerstone type players and I'm sure the steelers believe they will be great players for a few more years. that's why they are willing to kick the can down the road eith those players. it is possible the steelers just don't believe he is worth the 9 mill

not like I hope he gets cut, just saying I also don't believe he is a top flight CB at this point in his career

Ernie
02-18-2018, 02:48 PM
and I don't know if that's the case or not. the guys you mention are cornerstone type players and I'm sure the steelers believe they will be great players for a few more years. that's why they are willing to kick the can down the road eith those players. it is possible the steelers just don't believe he is worth the 9 mill

not like I hope he gets cut, just saying I also don't believe he is a top flight CB at this point in his career

Possible, but unlikely. Haden made 2 pro bowls while playing on the perennial worst team in the league, and was having a great year this year with us prior to breaking his leg (despite not attending training camp with us). I think most would agree with your previous assertion that he is not J. Ramsey or A. Buoye at this point in his career. Of course it could also be argued that both of those guys are in the top 2-3 CBs in the league.

pittpete
02-18-2018, 03:09 PM
Haden will be only 29 without a ton of mileage on him.
For the price and the character, he is well worth the $$$$.
You don't think the Steelers look at their roster, starting at the top salaries and say hey lets see if player X will restructure or take a paycut?

Steel Maniac
02-18-2018, 04:55 PM
Honestly, I think if we keep Haden... we are pretty solid with what we've got. Need to replace Mitchell. Other than that, we have 4 talented young guys (Burns, Davis, Sutton, Allen) that should all improve in 2018.

I'd love to see Burns take that step up; Maybe he will now that Carnell Lake has gone and hoping we have a better cornerback coach. But competition is a good thing and adding another talented guy to push who we already have can only be a positive.

But Mitchell has to go regardless; He's so bad that he causes the breakdown of the other 3 guys back there.

phillyesq
02-18-2018, 06:53 PM
when i think #1 CBs I think of guys like Jacksonville has. true playmakers

also, if haden was as good as everyone here seems to believe, why would the team ask him to take a paycut?

He is nowhere near the caliber of Jacksonville's guys. Few are. The Jacksonville corners, Patrick Peterson, Marcus Peters, Xavier Rhodes and maybe a few others are at a different level. Frustratingly, William Jackson of the Bengals seems to be close to that level.

Haden is not a "shut down" corner, but few are. With Haden, you can leave him in man coverage and not worry. When the Steelers played the Texans, he held Hopkins to 4/65 with 1 TD - an amazing grab. Hopkins - a guy I think is the second best WR in the league - had only 3 games with fewer yards and 1 with fewer targets. That, in my mind, speaks volumes about what Haden can do. He can keep legit #1 WRs in check.

Steel Maniac
02-18-2018, 07:13 PM
Frustratingly, William Jackson of the Bengals seems to be close to that level.

Well, the Bengals took Jackson before it was our pick. If someone wasn't showing their hand, we might have had him.Bengals and Ravens look for any and all ways to stick it to us in the draft as of late.

Ernie
02-18-2018, 09:34 PM
He is nowhere near the caliber of Jacksonville's guys. Few are. The Jacksonville corners, Patrick Peterson, Marcus Peters, Xavier Rhodes and maybe a few others are at a different level. Frustratingly, William Jackson of the Bengals seems to be close to that level.

Haden is not a "shut down" corner, but few are. With Haden, you can leave him in man coverage and not worry. When the Steelers played the Texans, he held Hopkins to 4/65 with 1 TD - an amazing grab. Hopkins - a guy I think is the second best WR in the league - had only 3 games with fewer yards and 1 with fewer targets. That, in my mind, speaks volumes about what Haden can do. He can keep legit #1 WRs in check.

Holds Hopkins to 4 for 65 in his first game or so back from a broken leg.

Captain Lemming
02-19-2018, 01:12 AM
none taken

like I said, I believe Haden to be a solid starter. whos to say Sutton can't be that for alot less

it's probably a moot point anyway as I doubt he goes anywhere

If Sutton is a “solid starter” he needs tpo take Burns place, because he AINT a solid starter.
Say you are correct. You don’t even debate Haden is our best starter. You are “guessing that Sutton is equal.

Even if you are correct and fans “overrate” Haden because he is the best “we” have, he still is THE BEST WE HAVE had IN YEARS at a crucial position.

What you suggest degrades the position any way you look at it. We cannot afford that.

Captain Lemming
02-19-2018, 03:30 AM
and everyone on this board has a tendency to overrate steelers players at times

Haden is a #1 for us because we don't have much at CB,IMO

I could make the point of Haden’s value based of the HUGE point swing in point allowed when Haden was out but you might associate that with Shazier and other factors.

Let’s look at what a cornerback directly contributes to a defense.

Do you know in the 5 games without Haden we allowed 10 total TD passes, the exact same number we gave up in 11 game with Haden?

Statistically, we gave up more than TWICE the number of TD passes per game without Haden (.9 with vs 2.0 without)

We gave up a total of ONE TD of 35 or more yards during the 8 games prior to Haden’s injury. ONE!

During the FIRST THREE GAMES without Haden we gave up SIX. Yes, I said 6.
Upon Haden’s return we gave up ONE more.

Put another way.
Eleven games Haden was in we allowed fewer than deep TDs than the THREE thrown by Brett stinking Hudley ALONE when Haden was out.

I emphasize.....Not Brett Farve....Brett Hudley threw 3 deep TDs while Haden was out!
ELEVEN ENTIRE TEAMS facing Haden had only 2.

Those two allowed when Haden was in? NEITHER was his responsibility.
Yes, the Steelers allowed a total of 8 deep TDs.
Haden was not responsible for a single deep TD pass.

Conclusion?

Our pass deep pass defense went from VERY GOOD with Haden to absolutely HORRIBLE without him.
His deep defensive play in man particularly was elite. And he never was a blazer.
Your intention that his skills have declined have no basis in fact my friend.

If he wants to take a pay cut great. But he is very much worth the money he makes.

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 05:55 AM
Holds Hopkins to 4 for 65 in his first game or so back from a broken leg.

Hold up now. We have to keep in mind who was throwing the ball for the Texans. This is like bragging about a CB keeping AB under 70 yards with Dobbs or Landry at QB.

I like Haden but I wouldn’t use that stat as proof of why I would keep him.

Its odd to see folks believe in the next man up. Some of you guys bashed our depth at certain positions but now a draft pick who hasn't shown much can be just as good as Haden? Based on???

Slapstick
02-19-2018, 09:35 AM
2015: AB in two games with Landry as starting QB = 9 catches for 148 yards (not to mention Oakland where Landry came in late)

2016: AB in one game with Landry starting = 7 catches for 106 yards

Good WRs who are able to get open will catch the ball from a backup...Hopkins just wasn’t open...hell, he wasn’t open on his TD catch, it was an unbelievable individual play...

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 10:35 AM
2015: AB in two games with Landry as starting QB = 9 catches for 148 yards (not to mention Oakland where Landry came in late)

2016: AB in one game with Landry starting = 7 catches for 106 yards

Good WRs who are able to get open will catch the ball from a backup...Hopkins just wasn’t open...hell, he wasn’t open on his TD catch, it was an unbelievable individual play...

ha.. I see you didn't post the individual stats for the Arizona game with Mike Vick and Landry at QB.

AB had 3 catches for 24 yards.

Hell, the 2 previous games WITH Ben AB averaged 4 catches for 44 yards vs Baltimore and SD.

Sorry, I don't think you can use one game as proof, especially with a 3rd string QB.

Slapstick
02-19-2018, 11:04 AM
You can think that, but you’re wrong.

phillyesq
02-19-2018, 12:09 PM
Hold up now. We have to keep in mind who was throwing the ball for the Texans. This is like bragging about a CB keeping AB under 70 yards with Dobbs or Landry at QB.

I like Haden but I wouldn’t use that stat as proof of why I would keep him.

Its odd to see folks believe in the next man up. Some of you guys bashed our depth at certain positions but now a draft pick who hasn't shown much can be just as good as Haden? Based on???

Hopkins had garbage QBs throwing to him all year.

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 12:15 PM
Hopkins had garbage QBs throwing to him all year.

no he didn't.

Deshaun Watson wasn't garbage.

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 12:17 PM
You can think that, but you’re wrong.

TJ Yates attempted 16 passes that game. Total.

Context matters Slapstick.

I'm sorry but you aren't going to convince me Haden held Hopkins in check in that game.

Slapstick
02-19-2018, 12:21 PM
TJ Yates attempted 16 passes that game. Total.

Context matters Slapstick.

I'm sorry but you aren't going to convince me Haden held Hopkins in check in that game.

Hopkins was targeted only 6 times in that game...if he’s your best player, then why are you not throwing in his direction more often?

Because he was well covered...context DOES matter...

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 12:45 PM
Hopkins was targeted only 6 times in that game...if he’s your best player, then why are you not throwing in his direction more often?

Because he was well covered...context DOES matter...

Ben, Brady, Brees, Rogers all throw to their best WR even when he is covered.

A one on one for most elite WR's is still an advantage to the offense.

This is why I think using Hopkins with Yates is a bad example.

Slapstick
02-19-2018, 01:06 PM
Ben, Brady, Brees, Rogers all throw to their best WR even when he is covered.

A one on one for most elite WR's is still an advantage to the offense.

This is why I think using Hopkins with Yates is a bad example.

But, it wasn’t to his advantage to throw a lot to Hopkins...because he was well covered...

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 01:13 PM
But, it wasn’t to his advantage to throw a lot to Hopkins...because he was well covered...

that's debatable.

We saw what happened on the TD. Hopkins is insane and guys like him are still at an advantage when in single coverage.

We see it with AB all the time. One on One Ben is going to take his chances. Guys like Yates are 3rd stringers for a reason.

Captain Lemming
02-19-2018, 01:35 PM
Ben, Brady, Brees, Rogers all throw to their best WR even when he is covered.

A one on one for most elite WR's is still an advantage to the offense.

This is why I think using Hopkins with Yates is a bad example.

And I thought I liked to argue!!!

You guys realize you are this same side in this debate about Haden right?

I go and spend like an HOUR to research one of my ridiculously long posts to BACK YOU AND SLAPPY UP, and do I get any love for giving factual undeniable evidence for a point you both agree on.

NOOO, you guys gotta go off and argue some irrelevant point to the larger discussion. :)

Captain Lemming
02-19-2018, 01:48 PM
BTW, Slappy IS right.

Watson did not play for half the season. 65 yards is the LOWEST figure Hopkins had POST Watson.

Yates played 3 games. TD's to Hopkins every game. He threw to Hopkins to the tune of 11 catches (season high) for 150 (bested once all season by Watson)1 and TWO TDs in a prior game.

Yates in no way hampered Hopkins performance.

OK, I'll admit, I like to argue too. :)

Slapstick
02-19-2018, 01:52 PM
I love yapping with both of you...

(I promised myself I wouldn’t cry...dammit...)

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 02:25 PM
BTW, Slappy IS right.

Watson did not play for half the season. 65 yards is the LOWEST figure Hopkins had POST Watson.

Yates played 3 games. TD's to Hopkins every game. He threw to Hopkins to the tune of 11 catches (season high) for 150 (bested once all season by Watson)1 and TWO TDs in a prior game.

Yates in no way hampered Hopkins performance.

OK, I'll admit, I like to argue too. :)

If you agree with Slappy it means I’m right.

and in the prior game against the Jags check the play by play. It was 31 to 0 in the 3rd quarter before Yates threw a TD to Hopkins. The game was over already. Garbage stats.

Yates threw for 5.4 ypa in 3 starts and went 0-3 with a 48.5 completion %.

oh, he also averaged 130 yards a game.

You guys need need to stop lying about who TJ Yates is...

Good ole CL. Always one to drop stats but never checks under the hood to see how the game unfolded.

phillyesq
02-19-2018, 03:09 PM
no he didn't.

Deshaun Watson wasn't garbage.

Fair point, but he only played in 7 games. But I should amend my previous statement to say that he had garbage QBs for a majority of the year.

Buzz
02-19-2018, 03:21 PM
Haden was the best CB we had. But I think the team needs to ask him to rework his contract to help us acquire more players ... and I think he will. Meanwhile, I hope we don't completely close the door on looking at FA CBs. I'm not sure Burns is all that, and Sutton and Allen certainly haven't proven themselves. If we could get a really good CB who would come to the Burgh for a decent price, I think we ought to at least look at it.

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 03:22 PM
Fair point, but he only played in 7 games. But I should amend my previous statement to say that he had garbage QBs for a majority of the year.

I have no idea why they didn’t start Watson at the beginning of the year. Some of these coaches are still stuck in the 90’s. What the hell could Watson learn from Tom Savage? What not to do?

That offense went from 0 to 100 real quick once Watson was on the field.

Buzz
02-19-2018, 03:29 PM
I have no idea why they didn’t start Watson at the beginning of the year. Some of these coaches are still stuck in the 90’s. What the hell could Watson learn from Tom Savage? What not to do?

That offense went from 0 to 100 real quick once Watson was on the field.Watson was fun to watch. Hope he doesn't flame out due to injuries.

Captain Lemming
02-19-2018, 03:57 PM
If you agree with Slappy it means I’m right.

and in the prior game against the Jags check the play by play. It was 31 to 0 in the 3rd quarter before Yates threw a TD to Hopkins. The game was over already. Garbage stats.

Yates threw for 5.4 ypa in 3 starts and went 0-3 with a 48.5 completion %.

oh, he also averaged 130 yards a game.

You guys need need to stop lying about who TJ Yates is...

Good ole CL. Always one to drop stats but never checks under the hood to see how the game unfolded.

Oh, I check under the hood my friend.
You wanna talk “garbage time”.

We lead 27 zip in the 3rd and Hopkins had 16 yards at that time......thanks to Haden. The rest were “garbage time” stats.

You wanna talk Jax? Ok, they have the leagues best pass defense. I ain’t arguing that. He was held to 80 and a TD against them. That is an accomplishment by the leagues best secondary.

But he got a buck50 and 2 TDs when playing a normal defense WITH Yates.

Dizz, nobody is claiming the Yates is all world.

But Hopkins was an All Pro level player REGARDLESS the QB. Watson if anything, relied LESS on Hopkins which he did as a superior QB.

Northern_Blitz
02-19-2018, 04:13 PM
I have no idea why they didn’t start Watson at the beginning of the year. Some of these coaches are still stuck in the 90’s. What the hell could Watson learn from Tom Savage? What not to do?

That offense went from 0 to 100 real quick once Watson was on the field.

I think it's about managing fan expectations.

Starting the savior rookie QB means that fans expect him to do well and carry them to victory.

Starting the journeyman or the washed up old QB lets fans realize that the team is bad. Then, when the savior comes in he is compared against lower (and more realistic) expectations.

Captain Lemming
02-19-2018, 05:16 PM
I think it's about managing fan expectations.

Starting the savior rookie QB means that fans expect him to do well and carry them to victory.

Starting the journeyman or the washed up old QB lets fans realize that the team is bad. Then, when the savior comes in he is compared against lower (and more realistic) expectations.

That is an interesting theory, that makes alot of sense.

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 05:55 PM
Oh, I check under the hood my friend.
You wanna talk “garbage time”.

We lead 27 zip in the 3rd and Hopkins had 16 yards at that time......thanks to Haden. The rest were “garbage time” stats.

You wanna talk Jax? Ok, they have the leagues best pass defense. I ain’t arguing that. He was held to 80 and a TD against them. That is an accomplishment by the leagues best secondary.

But he got a buck50 and 2 TDs when playing a normal defense WITH Yates.

Dizz, nobody is claiming the Yates is all world.

But Hopkins was an All Pro level player REGARDLESS the QB. Watson if anything, relied LESS on Hopkins which he did as a superior QB.

The point is Yates isn’t All Pro, he wasn’t even second string, so you can’t really judge how effective Haden was when Yates was throwing him the football.

I like Haden and think he is legit but that isn’t the game I would use as proof because Yates isn’t a legit QB.

Did you really call San Francisco a normal defense?

See dude, this is exactly what I’m talking about. You are really good at throwing stats and hiding your hand. Sam Fran was garbage on D until Jimmy G got there and they started dominating time of possession on offense.

Shame on you.

pittpete
02-19-2018, 06:34 PM
Using your logic then every DB in the league needs to be graded on if they faced a starter or 2nd stringer.
If you are an NFL QB you are an NFL QB.
You can't pick and choose because it makes your point LOL.
Do you throw out the Cleveland game because of Kizer?
Hell, the Bears had Glennon start vs. us.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
02-19-2018, 06:35 PM
Haden saves 4million


Cutting Haden pre-June 1 saves over $8M this season.

Steel Maniac
02-19-2018, 06:36 PM
CBS Sports' Jason La Canfora "continues to hear" that LCB Marcus Peters "may not be long" for Kansas City.

La Canfora is not the first to mention a potential Peters trade, and he expects that chatter to "intensify" at the NFL Combine. The Chiefs were left in horrible salary-cap condition by fired GM John Dorsey and may not believe they can fit a forthcoming Peters extension onto their books. For 2018, however, Peters is signed for just $1.74 million. Ideally, the Chiefs would keep Peters for at least one more year, and perhaps revisit a trade next offseason.

Steel Maniac
02-19-2018, 06:37 PM
Marcus Peters was another player who almost fell into our arms. I remember when the Chiefs took him I banged my fist on the desk because I wanted him.

pittpete
02-19-2018, 06:40 PM
Cutting Haden pre-June 1 saves over $8M this season.

Yes and dead $$$ would be almost 4 million.
Steelers are not cutting Haden fellas, LOL

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 07:08 PM
Using your logic then every DB in the league needs to be graded on if they faced a starter or 2nd stringer.
If you are an NFL QB you are an NFL QB.
You can't pick and choose because it makes your point LOL.
Do you throw out the Cleveland game because of Kizer?
Hell, the Bears had Glennon start vs. us.

What the hell are you talking about? I’m simply saying the Hopkin stat is misleading and shouldn’t be used as proof he is a shut down corner.

I think Haden is a great corner. The best we have. However, I wouldn’t use the Texan game to make my point.

Loon at it this way. How many times have people on here ripped our 5th ranked pass defense because we played a bunch of back up QB’s???

It’s funny to hear you make this argument. Let’s see what you say when Ben retires and we don’t have a franchise QB on the roster. All we hear on here is how it’s gojng to be the 80’s all over again but all a sudden it doesn’t matter who is under center since they are in the NFL?

the hill some of you choose to die on is so weird. Lol.

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 07:11 PM
Let me add. I like Haden. I want to keep Haden. However I would like to save a few dollars if possible. His zone coverage was pretty shaken IMO.

Slapstick
02-19-2018, 07:18 PM
I NEVER used the term “shut down corner” with Joe Haden...I actually hate that term because it is loaded with unrealistic expectations...

I merely stated that Joe Haden covered the guy who is possibly the best WR in the league not named Brown very well...

Which, he did...

Steel Maniac
02-19-2018, 07:25 PM
I NEVER used the term “shut down corner” with Joe Haden...I actually hate that term because it is loaded with unrealistic expectations...

I merely stated that Joe Haden covered the guy who is possibly the best WR in the league not named Brown very well...

Which, he did...

Slap, I agree with you; he did cover Nuke well that day. He discouraged that QB from throwing that way for most of the day.

feltdizz
02-19-2018, 08:25 PM
Slap, I agree with you; he did cover Nuke well that day. He discouraged that QB from throwing that way for most of the day.
He threw the ball 16 times...total.

Texans were terrible without Watson.

Most QB’s throw 16 times in one half or one quarter.

So good Haden discouraged Yates from throwing the ball anywhere. LOL.

pittpete
02-19-2018, 09:56 PM
I am right, you are wrong.

Captain Lemming
02-20-2018, 02:20 AM
The point is Yates isn’t All Pro, he wasn’t even second string, so you can’t really judge how effective Haden was when Yates was throwing him the football.


Did you really call San Francisco a normal defense?

Yes, 20th is pretty “normal”


See dude, this is exactly what I’m talking about. You are really good at throwing stats and hiding your hand. Sam Fran was garbage on D until Jimmy G got there and they started dominating time of possession on offense.

You act like this wasn’t a Jimmy G game Dizz.
Jimmy G was THERE and they DID dominate time of possession and Hopkins still had 11 catches for 149 and two touchdowns.

Since you wanted to try to create this false narrative about the Niners, lets go there
Let me repeat 11 catches, 149 yards, 2 touchdowns.
By ANY POSSIBLE MEASURE Hopkins had EASILY the best individual receiving performance against the Niners in 2017 and Yates was QB. I say holding THAT GUY to 16 yards before “garbage time” (your logic) IS quite the accomplishment.

Does that make Yates a great QB? No.
What it shows is that Hopkins can dominate as a receiver NO MATTER the QB.
Proof? All Pro with MOSTLY backup QBs.

feltdizz
02-20-2018, 09:32 AM
San Fran is/was garbage on D.

Slapstick
02-20-2018, 09:42 AM
San Fran is/was garbage on D.

Yep. They didn’t have a CB that could cover Hopkins like we do...

Northern_Blitz
02-20-2018, 10:17 AM
Yes and dead $$$ would be almost 4 million.
Steelers are not cutting Haden fellas, LOL

I think that the discussion about Haden loops back to the discussion about Bell.

If we only had $7M cap space left, would you rather:
1) Keep Haden and use the money to sign an above average RB (or maybe 2 avg RBs with complementary skills), OR
2) Cut Haden and use the cap savings to sign Bell to the tag?

I don't think it will actually come down to an either or situation like this.

But, if I had to make the choice I think that the team is better with a "very good" Haden at CB and a "good" RB over an "average" Sutton and an "exceptional" Bell. I might lean the other way if the O on the whole was only average, but I think that our O is still top 5-10 in the league without Bell and our D is a tire fire without Haden (still not that good with him if we don't make at least one significant add).

Northern_Blitz
02-20-2018, 10:18 AM
That is an interesting theory, that makes alot of sense.

Thanks. I think it also probably boosts the QBs confidence and his teammates confidence in him if he's seen to have "won" the job instead of it "being handed to him".

Steel Maniac
02-20-2018, 11:15 AM
Yes, 20th is pretty “normal”



You act like this wasn’t a Jimmy G game Dizz.
Jimmy G was THERE and they DID dominate time of possession and Hopkins still had 11 catches for 149 and two touchdowns.

Since you wanted to try to create this false narrative about the Niners, lets go there
Let me repeat 11 catches, 149 yards, 2 touchdowns.
By ANY POSSIBLE MEASURE Hopkins had EASILY the best individual receiving performance against the Niners in 2017 and Yates was QB. I say holding THAT GUY to 16 yards before “garbage time” (your logic) IS quite the accomplishment.

Does that make Yates a great QB? No.
What it shows is that Hopkins can dominate as a receiver NO MATTER the QB.
Proof? All Pro with MOSTLY backup QBs.

I think Hopkins has proven thru his entire pro career that he's a stud. Look at the bums who've been his QB? And he's only had one off year. With Watson now being the for real starter going forward, the sky's the limit for Nuke. He's clearly the # 2 wide receiver in the league as far as production is concerned. Right behind AB.

If you talk about FF, he's clearly a late first round pick in my book.

RuthlessBurgher
02-20-2018, 11:25 AM
CBS Sports' Jason La Canfora "continues to hear" that LCB Marcus Peters "may not be long" for Kansas City.

La Canfora is not the first to mention a potential Peters trade, and he expects that chatter to "intensify" at the NFL Combine. The Chiefs were left in horrible salary-cap condition by fired GM John Dorsey and may not believe they can fit a forthcoming Peters extension onto their books. For 2018, however, Peters is signed for just $1.74 million. Ideally, the Chiefs would keep Peters for at least one more year, and perhaps revisit a trade next offseason.

Trade Le'Veon Bell, Martavis Bryant, and Artie Burns to K.C. for Marcus Peters and Kareem Hunt. ;)

Slapstick
02-20-2018, 12:05 PM
This is from Ray Fittipaldo's chat yesterday:


The Standard: Hi, Ray I think either ESPN or CBS was talking like Steelers would let Haden go because of money or age. It is out there despite the fact it is a dumb idea.
Ray Fittipaldo: Well, I haven't seen those stories not heard that from anyone associated with the Steelers. We'll see.

Steel Maniac
02-20-2018, 12:37 PM
Trade Le'Veon Bell, Martavis Bryant, and Artie Burns to K.C. for Marcus Peters and Kareem Hunt. ;)

You are going way out the box. But I love your effort. :smile:

Shawn
02-20-2018, 01:22 PM
San Fran is/was garbage on D. And this is the same problem when people use overall D stats to claim this D or that D is good or bad. It's short sighted at best. So many factors come into play. And I prefer to rely on my eyes to evaluate than some overall D stat.

feltdizz
02-20-2018, 05:10 PM
And this is the same problem when people use overall D stats to claim this D or that D is good or bad. It's short sighted at best. So many factors come into play. And I prefer to rely on my eyes to evaluate than some overall D stat.

I think Haden is good but I don’t need his stats vs Hopkins wth TJ Yates at QB to prove it.

Slapstick
02-20-2018, 05:41 PM
You don’t need those stats, but they definitely do support the argument that he is a good CB...

Ernie
02-20-2018, 07:45 PM
Cutting Haden pre-June 1 saves over $8M this season.

and hopefully that doesn't happen.

Ernie
02-20-2018, 07:46 PM
I think Haden is good but I don’t need his stats vs Hopkins wth TJ Yates at QB to prove it.

so let's offset the whole "TJ Yates" thing with the fact that Haden was coming off of a broken leg.

pittpete
02-20-2018, 09:30 PM
so let's offset the whole "TJ Yates" thing with the fact that Haden was coming off of a broken leg.

Well which leg was broke?
Was it his right or left?
TJ Yates did better vs. DB's who were predominately right legged.....LOL:p

Captain Lemming
02-20-2018, 09:33 PM
San Fran is/was garbage on D.

Yet NO OTHER RECEIVER THEY.FACED was as prolific as Hopkins. Again, Hopkins production did not change regardless the QB :)

Ernie
02-21-2018, 05:18 PM
Well which leg was broke?
Was it his right or left?
TJ Yates did better vs. DB's who were predominately right legged.....LOL:p

I am thinking it was his left leg... but am unsure as to whether he was left leg or right leg dominant ;)

RuthlessBurgher
02-23-2018, 03:04 PM
Marcus Peters was another player who almost fell into our arms. I remember when the Chiefs took him I banged my fist on the desk because I wanted him.

Chiefs expected to trade Marcus Peters to Rams

Posted by Michael David Smith on February 23, 2018, 1:09 PM EST

For the second time this offseason, the Chiefs are making a major trade.

The Rams and Chiefs are in the final stages of agreeing on a trade that would send cornerback Marcus Peters to Los Angeles, Adam Schefter of ESPN reports.

Like the Chiefs’ other major trade, sending Alex Smith to Washington, the Peters deal can’t become official until the start of the league year next month. Teams can agree to trades before then, but either side can back out before the trade is official.

Peters is a talented cornerback, but the team was getting sick of his antics. He was suspended for one game last year, and talk heated up this offseason that the Chiefs were done with him.

Peters was the Chiefs’ first-round draft pick in 2015. He’s set to make $1.7 million this season, and the Rams will presumably pick up his fifth-year option for 2019 as well. If his head is on straight, the Rams just acquired a significant addition to their secondary, one who will allow them to let free agent-to-be Trumaine Johnson walk.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/23/chiefs-expected-to-trade-marcus-peters-to-rams/

Steel Maniac
02-23-2018, 03:25 PM
Wow. We could really have used Peters. I'm still pissed on how he went a couple of picks before us in the draft. Guess Colbert didn't feel he was worth the move up.

Slapstick
02-23-2018, 04:13 PM
Apparently, he's a huge headache...

steeler_george
02-23-2018, 04:37 PM
Hmm, Trumain play and $$$ vs Haden play and $$$....

RuthlessBurgher
02-23-2018, 04:59 PM
Trumaine Johnson will be looking for more money than Le'Veon Bell this offseason, for what it's worth...

Slapstick
02-23-2018, 06:04 PM
Trumaine Johnson played on a $16.7 million tag last year...

Buzz
02-24-2018, 12:31 PM
While I'd love to see Trumaine in Black and Gold, with what he will be asking you can forget about it. We probably could have maneuvered a deal to get Peters, like the Rams did, but I'm glad we didn't. Great talent, but this locker room doesn't need any more distractions, and we already have a CB who doesn't like to tackle (Burns).

RuthlessBurgher
02-26-2018, 03:26 PM
Rams gave a fourth and a 2019 second for Marcus Peters

Posted by Darin Gantt on February 26, 2018, 1:31 PM EST

The Chiefs are going to have to wait a year for the most meaningful part of their compensation for cornerback Marcus Peters.

According to Ian Rapoport of the NFL Network, the Chiefs will get the Rams’ fourth-round pick this year (124th overall), and their 2019 second-rounder in exchange for the star cornerback.

That’s a startlingly low price for such a talented player, but it’s clear the Chiefs didn’t want to pay Peters in the future, and didn’t think he was worth the headache the next two years while he was under his affordable rookie deal.

The fact it took so long for the terms to be known is a bit of a shock, but it’s certainly not that much better of a look for the Chiefs now.

The Rams didn’t have a second-rounder this year (from the Sammy Watkins deal), and now have just two of the first 159 picks, their own first-rounder (23rd) and their third (87th) before they pick again in the fifth (160th).

UPDATE 1:42 p.m. ET: It keeps getting better. The Chiefs are also sending this year’s sixth-rounder to the Rams in the deal, per Adam Schefter of ESPN.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/26/rams-gave-a-fourth-and-a-2019-second-for-marcus-peters/

phillyesq
02-27-2018, 11:46 AM
From the article below, it sounds like Haden is likely returning:

http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/27309/joe-haden-set-to-return-but-questions-loom-in-steelers-secondary

RuthlessBurgher
03-29-2018, 02:04 PM
Steelers officially announce two jersey number changes

By: Curt Popejoy
53 minutes ago


����New Number Alert����

2️⃣1️⃣ @umdsfinest21
2️⃣3️⃣ @joehaden23 pic.twitter.com/CEwAqfyy2P

— Pittsburgh Steelers (@steelers) March 29, 2018


Two members of the Pittsburgh Steelers defense are getting back to their original numbers for the upcoming season. The team announced via its official Twitter accounts that there will be two new jerseys for fans to pick up this season.

Cornerback Joe Haden is moving back to his original No. 23 for the upcoming season. He had switched to No. 21 his first season in Pittsburgh because No. 23 was worn by safety Mike Mitchell. But with Mitchell out, Haden can get his number back. He wore No. 23 at the University of Florida and when he played for the Cleveland Browns.

Same for safety Sean Davis. With Haden switching away from his No. 21, Davis snatches it up, letting him go back to the number he wore at the University of Maryland.

Davis and Haden are two of the top players in the Steelers secondary. The defense struggled last season so let’s hope these new jersey numbers will inspire them to step up their play in 2018. Yes, we are kidding. About the jerseys not about the need to play better this season.

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2018/03/29/steelers-officially-announce-two-jersey-number-changes/