Tomlin Get Recognition

[Oviedo]

Pretty obvious to anyone who wants to see it. Tomlin was identified by NFL.com as 4th best coach in the NFL

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2016/7/10/12131820/steelers-head-coach-mike-tomlin-finally-gets-the-credit-he-deserves

[feltdizz]

cant wait to read the kids reaction to this one

[SidSmythe]

Do rankings matter either way??

At the end of the day all that will matter is Lombardi's and Honorable Mention for being an overachiever with lack of talent around you.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Do rankings matter either way??

At the end of the day all that will matter is Lombardi's and Honorable Mention for being an overachiever with lack of talent around you.

Exactly, could not care less about where someone ranks him. Ask 50 writers and you will get 50 different lists. Does it make him a better coach depending on who you ask?

[Slapstick]

Eh, you could ask 50 different writers, but I bet 45 out of 50 would put Tomlin in the top 5, where he belongs...

[BradshawsHairdresser]

Do rankings matter either way??

At the end of the day all that will matter is Lombardi's and Honorable Mention for being an overachiever with lack of talent around you.

$$$$$$$$$$$

It's like their "rankings" of the 10 best players...

...and like the just released ESPN "power rankings" (that have the Steelers at 4th)...

...who gives a rip?

[SteelCrazy]

So, in theory, the Steelers should finish 4th in the NFL this year. We'll get to the AFC Championship but we'll lose to either number one, two or three depending on the coaches ranked higher.

However, does it matter the talent of the teams, assistant coaches, GM's?

So, do these lists matter? I'm confused so I'll say YES! I mean NO! Yes!

It's too much pressure!

[Eddie Spaghetti]

$$$$$$$$$$$

It's like their "rankings" of the 10 best players...

...and like the just released ESPN "power rankings" (that have the Steelers at 4th)...

...who gives a rip?

the same kind of fans who like to tout non losing seasons as some kind of benchmark

[Captain Lemming]

the same kind of fans who like to tout non losing seasons as some kind of benchmark

Cowher fans? :)
I was listing non-losing seasons to defend BC to Crash LONG before Tomlin showed up.

[Slapstick]

If the choice is between losing and not losing, most people will take the latter...

[feltdizz]

the same kind of fans who like to tout non losing seasons as some kind of benchmark

and offense and defense rankings?

[Iron City Inc.]

After the top dog that next group could be where MT goes 2nd but that is open to ones point of view. The haters will always hate. However that group just below BB is extremely talented and one reason those teams remain in contention year after year.

[Captain Lemming]

and offense and defense rankings?

Only when looking at coordinators.

You rate an offense by HOW MUCH IT SCORES Dizz.
You rate a defense on how few points it gives up (along with turnovers created).

Wins alone dont tell the story, when you only impact one unit.
Fast Willie was not better than Adrian Peterson in 2008 just because Willie got a ring that year.

I rate A HEAD COACH on wins and loses because HE overseas the ENTIRE team.

Arians was unimpressive as a coordinator, but appears to be a pretty good head coach. (Even as head coach his DEFENSE is usually the superior unit BY FAR, last season excepted).
Haley is a better coordinator but not as successful a head coach. (Lebeau was similar).

[bostonsteeler]

Pretty obvious to anyone who wants to see it. Tomlin was identified by NFL.com as 4th best coach in the NFL

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2016/7/10/12131820/steelers-head-coach-mike-tomlin-finally-gets-the-credit-he-deserves

Kinda junk. Carroll above Tomlin? Have these guys forgotten the NE years?

[Slapstick]

Kinda junk. Carroll above Tomlin? Have these guys forgotten the NE years?

Or the Jets year? The Patriots years weren't bad for Carroll, but he started off fairly strong and degraded from there..

[RuthlessBurgher]

These coach rankings come from the same source that brought us the wonderful Top 100 Players of the Year specials...neither of which mean jack squat in the grand scheme of things. It just means it's the offseason and they need to generate pointless discussion to get eyeballs tuning into their network and fingers clicking onto their website.

[squidkid]

Do rankings matter either way??

At the end of the day all that will matter is Lombardi's and Honorable Mention for being an overachiever with lack of talent around you.


it matters this year to the tomlin nuthuggers because he is near the top. when he was ranked about 12 or so a few years back then it was hogwash and wasnt relevant.

win a super bowl with your own players and i'll rank you number 1 that year

[RuthlessBurgher]

win a super bowl with your own players and i'll rank you number 1 that year

Don't forget to penalize Mike McCarthy for winning with Mike Sherman's players. We won't know if McCarthy is any good until Aaron Rodgers, drafted under Sherman, retires and McCarthy chooses his own QB.

That's how stupid it sounds when the "your own players" argument is brought up with Tomlin, since Ben was drafted under the previous regime. Guess who are Tomlin's players? Antonio Brown, Le'Veon Bell, Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro, Cameron Heyward, Stephon Tuitt, Ryan Shazier, etc.

[Oviedo]

Don't forget to penalize Mike McCarthy for winning with Mike Sherman's players. We won't know if McCarthy is any good until Aaron Rodgers, drafted under Sherman, retires and McCarthy chooses his own QB.

That's how stupid it sounds when the "your own players" argument is brought up with Tomlin, since Ben was drafted under the previous regime. Guess who are Tomlin's players? Antonio Brown, Le'Veon Bell, Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro, Cameron Heyward, Stephon Tuitt, Ryan Shazier, etc.


Ruthless--if he didn't sound stupid he would make no sound at all:)

[feltdizz]

it matters this year to the tomlin nuthuggers because he is near the top. when he was ranked about 12 or so a few years back then it was hogwash and wasnt relevant.

win a super bowl with your own players and i'll rank you number 1 that year

i knew you wouldn't disappoint.

[steelers75]

win a super bowl with your own players and i'll rank you number 1 that year

Whatever. This "argument" is as retarded as it is tired. How exactly is Harrison, who was the team's MVP in 2008, a Cowher player? Especially after being cut by Cowher 3 different times and then being forced to rot on the bench until he finally left?

[feltdizz]

Whatever. This "argument" is as retarded as it is tired. How exactly is Harrison, who was arguably the team's MVP in 2008, a Cowher player? Especially after being cut by Cowher 3 different times and then being forced to rot on the bench until he finally left?

man, you don't want to know the answers to these questions.

[squidkid]

Don't forget to penalize Mike McCarthy for winning with Mike Sherman's players. We won't know if McCarthy is any good until Aaron Rodgers, drafted under Sherman, retires and McCarthy chooses his own QB.

That's how stupid it sounds when the "your own players" argument is brought up with Tomlin, since Ben was drafted under the previous regime. Guess who are Tomlin's players? Antonio Brown, Le'Veon Bell, Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro, Cameron Heyward, Stephon Tuitt, Ryan Shazier, etc.


let ne know when those players win a super bowl

[RuthlessBurgher]

let ne know when those players win a super bowl

If any of them win a Super Bowl this year, we all know you won't give on iota of credit to Tomlin or his players...not when there is a QB who Tomlin inherited.

It would be funny if we win a Super Bowl after Ben retires, but Tomlin still gets no credit if he still employs Greg Warren, Cowher's longsnapper.

Dan Marino is one of the best QB of all time, Barry Sanders is one of the best RB of all time, Bruce Smith is one of the best DL of all time, Dick Butkus is one of the best LB of all time, Anthony Munoz is one of the best OL of all time, Tony Gonzalez is one of the best TE of all time. Get back to squidkid when those any of scrubs win a Super Bowl.

[feltdizz]

If any of them win a Super Bowl this year, we all know you won't give on iota of credit to Tomlin or his players...not when there is a QB who Tomlin inherited.

It would be funny if we win a Super Bowl after Ben retires, but Tomlin still gets no credit if he still employs Greg Warren, Cowher's longsnapper.

Dan Marino is one of the best QB of all time, Barry Sanders is one of the best RB of all time, Bruce Smith is one of the best DL of all time, Dick Butkus is one of the best LB of all time, Anthony Munoz is one of the best OL of all time, Tony Gonzalez is one of the best TE of all time. Get back to squidkid when those any of scrubs win a Super Bowl.

he's a kid... don't try and argue with him.

it's hilarious and sad at the same time. Hilarisad.

the kid is only happy when we lose.

[squidkid]

If any of them win a Super Bowl this year, we all know you won't give on iota of credit to Tomlin or his players...not when there is a QB who Tomlin inherited.

It would be funny if we win a Super Bowl after Ben retires, but Tomlin still gets no credit if he still employs Greg Warren, Cowher's longsnapper.

Dan Marino is one of the best QB of all time, Barry Sanders is one of the best RB of all time, Bruce Smith is one of the best DL of all time, Dick Butkus is one of the best LB of all time, Anthony Munoz is one of the best OL of all time, Tony Gonzalez is one of the best TE of all time. Get back to squidkid when those any of scrubs win a Super Bowl.

when ben is gone, it will be tomlins team
anyone that doesnt realize having a HOF franchise qb handed to you in his prime isnt the same as any other postion player(especially a LS) is clueless about football

[Slapstick]

It's Tomlin's team now and has been since 2007...

[Captain Lemming]

when ben is gone, it will be tomlins team
anyone that doesnt realize having a HOF franchise qb handed to you in his prime isnt the same as any other postion player(especially a LS) is clueless about football

Oh shadup.
COWHER had that HOF QB "handed to him" against his "better" judgement.
Shawn Andrews was Cowher and the GMs pick until Rooney pulled rank and "forced" Ben on them.

Don't you DARE pretend Cowher deserves credit for Ben being a Steeler.

Ben is just as much a part of Tomlins team as he is Cowhers because Ben was not Cowhers pick.

[bostonsteeler]

Oh shadup.
COWHER had that HOF QB "handed to him" against his "better" judgement.
Shawn Andrews was Cowher and the GMs pick until Rooney pulled rank and "forced" Ben on them.

Don't you DARE pretend Cowher deserves credit for Ben being a Steeler.

Ben is just as much a part of Tomlins team as he is Cowhers because Ben was not Cowhers pick.


How does it matter? Having a HOF QB doesn't immediately guarantee you victories or an SB. Look around the league and see how many brilliant QBs don't get close to an SB year after year.

You're feeding a troll, dude.

[Captain Lemming]

How does it matter? Having a HOF QB doesn't immediately guarantee you victories or an SB. Look around the league and see how many brilliant QBs don't get close to an SB year after year.

You're feeding a troll, dude.

I know I'm feeding the troll but his point is ridiculous.
Fact is while having a top QB does not guarantee success, WE have zero rings without one despite being outstanding at other positions pre-Ben.
There is no doubt Ben has been key to our recent success therefore, pretending BC put the team Tomlin "inherited" and including Ben in that discussion has zero merit because Ben is on the team DESPITE BC not because of him.

BTW, I have always been a big fan of Cowher (like him a smidgen more than Tomlin overall) but to dis Tomlin because Ben was already on the team is ridiculous

[Slapstick]

Ben has played 75% of his NFL career with Tomlin as the HC...

[BradshawsHairdresser]

My 2c...

If you're going to assign Tomlin blame when the team loses, you've got to give him credit when they win. He's the head coach...it's his team.

Personally, I think that if Cowher had not retired, the Steelers would still be looking for Lombardi #6.

[bostonsteeler]

I know I'm feeding the troll but his point is ridiculous.
Fact is while having a top QB does not guarantee success, WE have zero rings without one despite being outstanding at other positions pre-Ben.
There is no doubt Ben has been key to our recent success therefore, pretending BC put the team Tomlin "inherited" and including Ben in that discussion has zero merit because Ben is on the team DESPITE BC not because of him.

BTW, I have always been a big fan of Cowher (like him a smidgen more than Tomlin overall) but to dis Tomlin because Ben was already on the team is ridiculous

True. Having a star QB is a somewhat (but not entirely) necessary, but not a sufficient condition.

I prefer Tomlin actually. I remember the many frustrating years of gnashing teeth with Cowher, when he would repeatedly try to impose his will on the opposing team and get squashed. In retrospect, we had it good, but back then he caused me many visits to the dentist and caps and crowns to fix my teeth worn out from gnashing. It was always so close and yet so far.

With Tomlin it's a pretty binary thing. The team is excellent, or it sucks. We had more of the excellent than the suck..

[BradshawsHairdresser]

True. Having a star QB is a somewhat (but not entirely) necessary, but not a sufficient condition.

I prefer Tomlin actually. I remember the many frustrating years of gnashing teeth with Cowher, when he would repeatedly try to impose his will on the opposing team and get squashed. In retrospect, we had it good, but back then he caused me many visits to the dentist and caps and crowns to fix my teeth worn out from gnashing. It was always so close and yet so far.

With Tomlin it's a pretty binary thing. The team is excellent, or it sucks. We had more of the excellent than the suck..

Agree with everything but your last three sentences. Though the team has been bad in spots under Tomlin, as far as seasons go, I wouldn't say they've "sucked"...but they have been mediocre for about 1/3 of his time in charge.

[squidkid]

I know I'm feeding the troll but his point is ridiculous.
Fact is while having a top QB does not guarantee success, WE have zero rings without one despite being outstanding at other positions pre-Ben.
There is no doubt Ben has been key to our recent success therefore, pretending BC put the team Tomlin "inherited" and including Ben in that discussion has zero merit because Ben is on the team DESPITE BC not because of him.

BTW, I have always been a big fan of Cowher (like him a smidgen more than Tomlin overall) but to dis Tomlin because Ben was already on the team is ridiculous

i heard tomlin didnt want brown, bell, decastro, pouncey or timmons.

[Slapstick]

i heard tomlin didnt want brown, bell, decastro, pouncey or timmons.

You heard wrong.

[squidkid]

did tomlin want those guys or did rooney tell him who he was getting just like his DCs and OCs?

[Captain Lemming]

i heard tomlin didnt want brown, bell, decastro, pouncey or timmons.

Dan Rooney said in his book that HE had to step in to stop Bill Cowher and Kevin Colbert from drafting Shawn Andrews over Ben.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2007/11/04/Ed-Bouchette-on-the-Steelers-Dan-Rooney-s-book-Family-Business/stories/200711040190

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/154484-unforgettable-top-ten-steeler-draft-moments

Don't act like I made up some rumor.
But you KNEW that, just wanna be a hater. Just OWN IT and stop pretending there is any rational basis for your ridiculous assertions.

[feltdizz]

It's Tomlin's team now and has been since 2007...

never, we cant give Tomlin credit until Jupiter aligns with Saturns rings. Always going to be an excuse for Tomlin winning and he will get all the credit when we lose.

and we all know the real reason why.

[RuthlessBurgher]

never, we cant give Tomlin credit until Jupiter aligns with Saturns rings.

If you think Tomlin is a good coach, you must have your head up Uranus.

Just wanted to say it before squid did.

[squidkid]

never, we cant give Tomlin credit until Jupiter aligns with Saturns rings. Always going to be an excuse for Tomlin winning and he will get all the credit when we lose.

and we all know the real reason why.

same reason you praise him, i bet

[feltdizz]

same reason you praise him, i bet
So you admit you dont like Tomlin because he is black... smh

[bostonsteeler]

So you admit you dont like Tomlin because he is black... smh

Nice move!! Do you play chess? :-) :-)

[Captain Lemming]

same reason you praise him, i bet

I praise him because he wins a lot.....Is that why you hate him? :)

[feltdizz]

Nice move!! Do you play chess? :-) :-)

lmao.. yes, always thinking a few moves ahead.

in this case though it's obvious the kid hates Tomlin because of his skin color.

After a win squid is usually pretty miserable but when we lose he has some pep in his typing..lol

[feltdizz]

I praise him because he wins a lot.....Is that why you hate him? :)

of course that's why he hates him. He expected failure because Tomlin was ONLY hired because of his skin color. Most people forget we already interviewed Rivera and didn't have to interview Tomlin but who needs facts.

I joined the Trib board because the racism was insane during the Grimm, Tomlin hiring debacle.

[Oviedo]

of course that's why he hates him. He expected failure because Tomlin was ONLY hired because of his skin color. Most people forget we already interviewed Rivera and didn't have to interview Tomlin but who needs facts.

I joined the Trib board because the racism was insane during the Grimm, Tomlin hiring debacle.

Debacle????? How was anything a debacle? There was no debacle. Grimm was unqualified. Every team then knew that and every team still knows that. The Steelers were smart hiring a young defensive oriented coach with a ton of leadership and upside. Just like they did when they hired Noll and Cowher. They stuck to the script that had worked for 30+ years.

[feltdizz]

Debacle????? How was anything a debacle? There was no debacle. Grimm was unqualified. Every team then knew that and every team still knows that. The Steelers were smart hiring a young defensive oriented coach with a ton of leadership and upside. Just like they did when they hired Noll and Cowher. They stuck to the script that had worked for 30+ years.

You don't remember the Russ Grimm hired as the next coach announcement that was published by the Trib?

http://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/tribs-call-on-steelers-coach-a-losing-bet/Content?oid=1334779

A day later we announced Mike Tomlin was the head coach and things got real ugly on the boards.

For a week there was talk of lying, racism, sources lying to the paper, retractions... that was the debacle.

[The Man of Steel]

So you admit you dont like Tomlin because he is black... smh
As Tomlin would say: "obviously."

[Captain Lemming]

As Tomlin would say: "obviously."


Racism, if you will. :)

[squidkid]

So you admit you dont like Tomlin because he is black... smh

so you admit that thats the only reason you like him.........

[RuthlessBurgher]

so you admit that thats the only reason you like him.........

I'm sure that leading his favorite team to a record that is 40 games over .500 in 9 seasons as head coach has something to do with it as well (92-52).

[DukieBoy]

when ben is gone, it will be tomlins team
anyone that doesnt realize having a HOF franchise qb handed to you in his prime isnt the same as any other postion player(especially a LS) is clueless about football

How should Mike Sullivan get credit on coaching the Pens to win the Stanley Cup when he inherited Mike Johnston's losers ?

[Slapstick]

so you admit that thats the only reason you like him.........

And you admit that that's the only reason you don't like him?!?!

[Slapstick]

I'm sure that leading his favorite team to a record that is 40 games over .500 in 9 seasons as head coach has something to do with it as well (92-52).

Absolutely! That and the whole Super Bowl victory thing...

[RuthlessBurgher]

How should Mike Sullivan get credit on coaching the Pens to win the Stanley Cup when he inherited Mike Johnston's losers ?

Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Kris Letang, and Marc Andre Fleury were all was drafted 5 coaches ago, before Mike Sullivan, Mike Johnston, Dan Bylsma, and Michel Therrien...apparently NBC color commentator Eddie Olczyk is the coach most responsible for the Pens last two Cup victories.

[DukieBoy]

Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Kris Letang, and Marc Andre Fleury were all was drafted 5 coaches ago, before Mike Sullivan, Mike Johnston, Dan Bylsma, and Michel Therrien...apparently NBC color commentator Eddie Olczyk is the coach most responsible for the Pens last two Cup victories.

Right on ... reveals the anti-Tomlin argument as senseless.

[phillyesq]

Pretty obvious to anyone who wants to see it. Tomlin was identified by NFL.com as 4th best coach in the NFL

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/nfl-pittsburgh-steelers-news/2016/7/10/12131820/steelers-head-coach-mike-tomlin-finally-gets-the-credit-he-deserves

Timmons identified as the most overrated player on the Steelers. Pretty obvious to anybody who wants to see it, right Ovi? :-P

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfls-most-overrated-32-teams-32-players-who-are-more-name-than-game/

[Steelerphile]

Timmons identified as the most overrated player on the Steelers. Pretty obvious to anybody who wants to see it, right Ovi? :-P

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfls-most-overrated-32-teams-32-players-who-are-more-name-than-game/

That blog says he was woefully underrated a few years ago, and now might just be reaching the overrated phase. I always thought you viewed him as overrated all of his career in Pittsburgh.

[feltdizz]

so you admit that thats the only reason you like him.........

No... but its definitely one of the reasons.

He wins a lot, players like him, he has a good head on his shoulders, he is aggressive...and yes, he is Black.

[SteelYinzer]

It's laughable. His teams only win when they are stacked with talent. He's never developed a great cornerback despite being a former defensive backs coach and defensive coordinator (where his team had the worst pass defense). His teams routinely come out flat and play uninspired football, especially against bad teams. He and his coaches have made headlines for acting like fools on the field/sidelines. His player's have shown up out of shape and multiple players have failed multiple drug tests which just proves he doesn't command their respect and he's not a leader of men. His decision making on the sidelines regarding time management, replay challenges, pace of play, etc are all below average to bad. I cannot think of a single thing he brings to the table that would make people believe he's a good coach beyond press conference quotes and declarations, most of which aren't followed through with. I promise you all this, as soon as Ben retires and he no longer has a franchise QB, he'll be gone shortly thereafter. They'll either finally just accept that he's not very good and not a fit to lead the rebuild, or, more likely, he'll leave for a team that has one and is comparably as stacked as the team he inherited here.

[RuthlessBurgher]

It's laughable. His teams only win when they are stacked with talent. He's never developed a great cornerback despite being a former defensive backs coach and defensive coordinator (where his team had the worst pass defense). His teams routinely come out flat and play uninspired football, especially against bad teams. He and his coaches have made headlines for acting like fools on the field/sidelines. His player's have shown up out of shape and multiple players have failed multiple drug tests which just proves he doesn't command their respect and he's not a leader of men. His decision making on the sidelines regarding time management, replay challenges, pace of play, etc are all below average to bad. I cannot think of a single thing he brings to the table that would make people believe he's a good coach beyond press conference quotes and declarations, most of which aren't followed through with. I promise you all this, as soon as Ben retires and he no longer has a franchise QB, he'll be gone shortly thereafter. They'll either finally just accept that he's not very good and not a fit to lead the rebuild, or, more likely, he'll leave for a team that has one and is comparably as stacked as the team he inherited here.

Noll won 57.2 percent of his games, including the postseason. Cowher won 61.9 percent. Tomlin has won 63.2 percent.

[Oviedo]

Noll won 57.2 percent of his games, including the postseason. Cowher won 61.9 percent. Tomlin has won 63.2 percent.

Don't rain on squidboy's hate parade no matter what name he uses. Facts are inconvenient.

[Slapstick]

It's laughable. His teams only win when they are stacked with talent. He's never developed a great cornerback despite being a former defensive backs coach and defensive coordinator (where his team had the worst pass defense). His teams routinely come out flat and play uninspired football, especially against bad teams. He and his coaches have made headlines for acting like fools on the field/sidelines. His player's have shown up out of shape and multiple players have failed multiple drug tests which just proves he doesn't command their respect and he's not a leader of men. His decision making on the sidelines regarding time management, replay challenges, pace of play, etc are all below average to bad. I cannot think of a single thing he brings to the table that would make people believe he's a good coach beyond press conference quotes and declarations, most of which aren't followed through with. I promise you all this, as soon as Ben retires and he no longer has a franchise QB, he'll be gone shortly thereafter. They'll either finally just accept that he's not very good and not a fit to lead the rebuild, or, more likely, he'll leave for a team that has one and is comparably as stacked as the team he inherited here.

I just spent the last week hearing/reading copious amounts of misinformation...and now I have to read more on the Steelers board?

Fact check!

[BradshawsHairdresser]

Noll won 57.2 percent of his games, including the postseason. Cowher won 61.9 percent. Tomlin has won 63.2 percent.

While those are important numbers (and I'm not bashing Tomlin in this thread), IMO the more important numbers are:

SUPER BOWL WINS
Noll--4
Tomlin--1
Cowher--1

Plus, both Cowher and Tomlin stepped into pretty good situations. Noll pretty much had to build his team from the ground up, IIRC.

[squidkid]

Don't rain on squidboy's hate parade no matter what name he uses. Facts are inconvenient.


lol.......it kills me knowing that i am in your head so much about tomlin that you think i have multiple usernames.

fact is, tomlin has won more with cowhers players.

[Slapstick]

Tomlin has won more with his players. Ben Roethlisberger has played 3/4 of his career under Tomlin. IMO, that gives Tomlin a better claim...

[BradshawsHairdresser]

I just hope he goes on a tear and adds another Lombardi or two to the trophy case.

[bostonsteeler]

No... but its definitely one of the reasons.

He wins a lot, players like him, he has a good head on his shoulders, he is aggressive...and yes, he is Black.

Glad you said that.
I, for one, had much trepidation when he was hired. I didn't want Whiz, or Grimm, and of the ones interviewed Tomlin sounded the best. But I was worried that if he didn't pan out, he would be called out for his race and it would be used to confirm people's negative biases, regardless of the fact that the vast majority of poor coaches are white. I (and probably many like me) were very relieved to get SB no. 6.

[feltdizz]

Glad you said that.
I, for one, had much trepidation when he was hired. I didn't want Whiz, or Grimm, and of the ones interviewed Tomlin sounded the best. But I was worried that if he didn't pan out, he would be called out for his race and it would be used to confirm people's negative biases, regardless of the fact that the vast majority of poor coaches are white. I (and probably many like me) were very relieved to get SB no. 6.

I always laughed at the notion that Black coaches werent qualified. Most coaches lose... so it wasnt experience or qualifications because half of the white coaches are sons of coaches and just grew up inside the small pool of names they pull from.

Same thing with Black QB's. Most QB's stink or never become anything more than serviceable but they acted like it was impossible for Black QB's to live up to those qualifications.

its a shame a Black coach has to win a SB in the first 5 years or its proof they arent good coaches.

[feltdizz]

lol.......it kills me knowing that i am in your head so much about tomlin that you think i have multiple usernames.

fact is, tomlin has won more with cowhers players.

but he wins... lol.

crazy how winning isnt enough these days.

How many coaches won with just their players and no former coaches picks? That list is extremely short.

What you are really suggesting is Tomlin isnt worthy until he is Hofer material because it will take another 5 years for Ben to retire and if Tomlin wins without him it will be 15 or so years into an awesome career.

gotta love bigots, the bar is always set to damn near impossible heights and even if they reach the goal you guys are already moving the goal post again to discredit success.

[RuthlessBurgher]

For what it's worth, Mike Tomlin now has 92 regular season wins, which ties him with legendary coach Bill Walsh on the All-Time NFL Head Coach win list. However, Tomlin has fewer losses and therefore a better winning percentage than Walsh (92-52-0 .639 vs. 92-59-1 .609). I'm not claiming Tomlin is a better coach than Walsh or anything...just stating some more facts for the Tomlin haters to chew on.

[Oviedo]

For what it's worth, Mike Tomlin now has 92 regular season wins, which ties him with legendary coach Bill Walsh on the All-Time NFL Head Coach win list. However, Tomlin has fewer losses and therefore a better winning percentage than Walsh (92-52-0 .639 vs. 92-59-1 .609). I'm not claiming Tomlin is a better coach than Walsh or anything...just stating some more facts for the Tomlin haters to chew on.

Wins??? Screw wins!! What do wins have to do with regards to what a head coach does? It's more about his demeanor on the sideline, how he wears his hat and of course the fans assessment of time management.

Wins are a useless data point in evaluating coach because there are 53 guys on a teams and other coaches and we all know they are the ones who establish the plans, set the leadership climate, etc. The head coach has nothing to do with winning anything

[squidkid]

[QUOTE=Slapstick;672328]Tomlin has won more with his players. Ben Roethlisberger has played 3/4 of his career under Tomlin. IMO, that gives Tomlin a better claim...[/QUO

tomlins regular season record with most of his players is nice. his post season with mostly his players not so much. his post season with cowhers players is very good. thats his real claim

[squidkid]

but he wins... lol.

crazy how winning isnt enough these days.

How many coaches won with just their players and no former coaches picks? That list is extremely short.

What you are really suggesting is Tomlin isnt worthy until he is Hofer material because it will take another 5 years for Ben to retire and if Tomlin wins without him it will be 15 or so years into an awesome career.

gotta love bigots, the bar is always set to damn near impossible heights and even if they reach the goal you guys are already moving the goal post again to discredit success.

or racists that want the bar lowered for an unfair advantage in life

[Slapstick]

or racists that want the bar lowered for an unfair advantage in life

You've just accurately described white privilege...:Clap

[squidkid]

You've just accurately described white privilege...:Clap


lol........sure

[fordfixer]

Wait .........what Coach Tomlin is black? This dang black and white 19 in. T.V. of mine I thought he just had a good tan. :HeadBanger

[bostonsteeler]

I always laughed at the notion that Black coaches werent qualified. Most coaches lose... so it wasnt experience or qualifications because half of the white coaches are sons of coaches and just grew up inside the small pool of names they pull from.

Same thing with Black QB's. Most QB's stink or never become anything more than serviceable but they acted like it was impossible for Black QB's to live up to those qualifications.

its a shame a Black coach has to win a SB in the first 5 years or its proof they arent good coaches.

Actually, for some people here even winning an SB isn't enough :-/

[feltdizz]

or racists that want the bar lowered for an unfair advantage in life

more like they want the bar lowered to the same height as whites.

that height where you get an interview just cause your daddy was a coach, the height where you get to fail 5 or 6 times and still get considered for the next job because you are part of a coaching tree.

yes, if that's racist, so be it.

[RuthlessBurgher]

more like they want the bar lowered to the same height as whites.

90's movies taught me that White Men Can't Jump. ;)

[Captain Lemming]

more like they want the bar lowered to the same height as whites.

that height where you get an interview just cause your daddy was a coach, the height where you get to fail 5 or 6 times and still get considered for the next job because you are part of a coaching tree.

yes, if that's racist, so be it.

Most white folks can compete have no problems with blacks who achieve success.
People who can't compete are threatened when FINALLY there is a level playing field.

[Slapstick]

Most white folks can compete have no problems with blacks who achieve success.
People who can't compete are threatened when FINALLY there is a level playing field.

More for you does not have to mean less for me...

[papillon]

More for you does not have to mean less for me...

Somebody gets less, just the way finite numbers work and accounting as well.

Pappy

[Slapstick]

Somebody gets less, just the way finite numbers work and accounting as well.

Pappy

Correct. And those are the people trying like hell to maintain the status quo.

[Shawn]

What is the off season without discussing race issues? I must say something I had a bit of an epiphany within the last year. When it comes to blatant racism in most white circles it is shunned. White folks believe if they don't use the N word, and have a black friend or two that they are not racist. Race talk makes many of us extremely uncomfortable. I was in this same group. I honestly believed I had no issues with black people and had very little to no prejudice. I consider myself a decent guy, want to see people of all races do well, and even can find myself supporting the "over paid janitor" ;) I'm ashamed to admit this but my epiphany came when one day I'm walking a trail near my home and coming my way is a couple young black males. I'm sure this has happened thousands of times and I just never noticed my response. But, I had a physical fight or flight response that was more pronounced or maybe I was just more aware.

This bothered me quite a bit. I'm supposed to be an educated, "enlightened" crusader for people and I have physical fear responses to young black males. I'm not proud of this...actually I'm quite disturbed by it. I'm ashamed to admit it. But, I realized something pondering that over the following days. If I reacted that way, how often do other white folks react that way? I also wondered how it might feel if this was flipped and everywhere I seen black faces fearing me as I walk down a trail. I think it would hurt and make me very angry.

I firmly believe racism is alive and well but its more built into our subconscious. While I know there is outright racism I don't believe most white folks are blatantly racist. I believe most of us harbor fear. That fear has been built into us by our upbringing, news, movies, media and it influences everything from who gets a bank loan to who gets pulled over. There is no doubt an uneven playing field and its propagated by a society that educates us to fear anything black.

And I know this post won't be popular. I think many reading it will feel uncomfortable...say Shawn you are just being politically correct. Actually, what I just said is the least politically correct thing I've ever said here. We want to talk about black on black crime, personal responsibility etc and so on. But, until you fix a system geared towards caste degradation of an entire race nothing will be resolved. Screw political correctness it's about giving all people, of all races, religions, sexes, disabilities and sexual orientations the same level playing field.

[Slapstick]

:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap

Sincerely!

It took some guts to make that admission.

[squidkid]

more like they want the bar lowered to the same height as whites.

that height where you get an interview just cause your daddy was a coach, the height where you get to fail 5 or 6 times and still get considered for the next job because you are part of a coaching tree.

yes, if that's racist, so be it.

you mean the height of the bar where getting accepted into a college with lower GPA or ACT scores or receive scholarships, get hired or promoted for the sake of diversity in the workforce even tho the interview and test scores were lower, college funds, beauty pageants, colleges, history months.........is that's the kind of racists you are talking about?

[feltdizz]

you mean the height of the bar where getting accepted into a college with lower GPA or ACT scores or receive scholarships, get hired or promoted for the sake of diversity in the workforce even tho the interview and test scores were lower, college funds, beauty pageants, colleges, history months.........is that's the kind of racists you are talking about?


yes, the same height that whites have enjoyed for hundred of years in America.

legacy acceptance into colleges even though they don't have the test scores or grades... "Hi George W Bush"
promotions based on who you know and not how much you know...
the racism where a white swimmer at Stanford avoiding jail after raping a girl because jail would "cause him damage"
the racism where a kid in Texas gets probation after killing 4 people while driving drunk because he has "afluenza"

history months? Black History month isn't for US, it's for you and your whiny crew who have no idea about the contributions of Blacks in American History.

[squidkid]

yes, the same height that whites have enjoyed for hundred of years in America.

legacy acceptance into colleges even though they don't have the test scores or grades... "Hi George W Bush"
promotions based on who you know and not how much you know...
the racism where a white swimmer at Stanford avoiding jail after raping a girl because jail would "cause him damage"
the racism where a kid in Texas gets probation after killing 4 people while driving drunk because he has "afluenza"

history months? Black History month isn't for US, it's for you and your whiny crew who have no idea about the contributions of Blacks in American History.

so you support racism if it gives blacks an unfair advantage, not if it gives it to whites............got it.

[Flasteel]

What is the off season without discussing race issues? I must say something I had a bit of an epiphany within the last year. When it comes to blatant racism in most white circles it is shunned. White folks believe if they don't use the N word, and have a black friend or two that they are not racist. Race talk makes many of us extremely uncomfortable. I was in this same group. I honestly believed I had no issues with black people and had very little to no prejudice. I consider myself a decent guy, want to see people of all races do well, and even can find myself supporting the "over paid janitor" ;) I'm ashamed to admit this but my epiphany came when one day I'm walking a trail near my home and coming my way is a couple young black males. I'm sure this has happened thousands of times and I just never noticed my response. But, I had a physical fight or flight response that was more pronounced or maybe I was just more aware.

This bothered me quite a bit. I'm supposed to be an educated, "enlightened" crusader for people and I have physical fear responses to young black males. I'm not proud of this...actually I'm quite disturbed by it. I'm ashamed to admit it. But, I realized something pondering that over the following days. If I reacted that way, how often do other white folks react that way? I also wondered how it might feel if this was flipped and everywhere I seen black faces fearing me as I walk down a trail. I think it would hurt and make me very angry.

I firmly believe racism is alive and well but its more built into our subconscious. While I know there is outright racism I don't believe most white folks are blatantly racist. I believe most of us harbor fear. That fear has been built into us by our upbringing, news, movies, media and it influences everything from who gets a bank loan to who gets pulled over. There is no doubt an uneven playing field and its propagated by a society that educates us to fear anything black.

And I know this post won't be popular. I think many reading it will feel uncomfortable...say Shawn you are just being politically correct. Actually, what I just said is the least politically correct thing I've ever said here. We want to talk about black on black crime, personal responsibility etc and so on. But, until you fix a system geared towards caste degradation of an entire race nothing will be resolved. Screw political correctness it's about giving all people, of all races, religions, sexes, disabilities and sexual orientations the same level playing field.

I'd be willing to bet that if the two young men you referenced were wearing shirts and ties, you wouldn't have noticed any "fight or flight" response. Conversely, if two white young men...or Asian young men were walking towards you all tatted up and rocking hoodies, that same response would likely kick-in. Is that racism? Of course not. It is what we have conditioned ourselves to possibly be a threat. Two young males can be threatening to a lot of folks depending on where you are and other circumstances, such as appearance.

You are spot-on with some of your observations brother, but I don't think you are racist because of your reaction.

[Slapstick]

so you support racism if it gives blacks an unfair advantage, not if it gives it to whites............got it.

White people already have the unfair advantage...

[Slapstick]

I'd be willing to bet that if the two young men you referenced were wearing shirts and ties, you wouldn't have noticed any "fight or flight" response. Conversely, if two white young men...or Asian young men were walking towards you all tatted up and rocking hoodies, that same response would likely kick-in. Is that racism? Of course not. It is what we have conditioned ourselves to possibly be a threat. Two young males can be threatening to a lot of folks depending on where you are and other circumstances, such as appearance.

You are spot-on with some of your observations brother, but I don't think you are racist because of your reaction.

I've said many times, if I were on an elevator at night and two black men got on, I'd be fine...

If two white teenagers in trenchcoats got on, I'd take the stairs...

[feltdizz]

I'd be willing to bet that if the two young men you referenced were wearing shirts and ties, you wouldn't have noticed any "fight or flight" response. Conversely, if two white young men...or Asian young men were walking towards you all tatted up and rocking hoodies, that same response would likely kick-in. Is that racism? Of course not. It is what we have conditioned ourselves to possibly be a threat. Two young males can be threatening to a lot of folks depending on where you are and other circumstances, such as appearance.

You are spot-on with some of your observations brother, but I don't think you are racist because of your reaction.

he didn't say he was racist.

he perfectly described his bias/fear and was honest about wanting to know why that fear exist. Is it based on personal experience, something in his past or just due to news, media, tv shows and movies?

That fear Shawn feels, as a black man I have seen that fear for 30+ years of my life. Why should I have to wear a suit and tie to make people feel better about their irrational fear of Black males?

[feltdizz]

so you support racism if it gives blacks an unfair advantage, not if it gives it to whites............got it.

so you admit whites have an unfair advantage based on skin color and not on skill, education, hard work?

if you define leveling the playing field as racism then yes, I support it.

Whats funny is 28 or so NFL HC's are white... and your main beef is with a HC who has been to 2 SB's, has 1 ring and one of the best winning percentages in the NFL but since he has Cowhers QB... you are mad.

[BradshawsHairdresser]

I long for a day when no one will make any kind of distinction based on skin color, when there will be only one "race" recognized by the people of this world: the human race.

I had thought that, in this country, we were heading in that direction, but these past few years, it appears we've changed course and are moving in the opposite way.

[Shawn]

he didn't say he was racist.

he perfectly described his bias/fear and was honest about wanting to know why that fear exist. Is it based on personal experience, something in his past or just due to news, media, tv shows and movies?

That fear Shawn feels, as a black man I have seen that fear for 30+ years of my life. Why should I have to wear a suit and tie to make people feel better about their irrational fear of Black males? You shouldn't have to wear a suit and tie. You shouldn't have to "talk white" or "act white" in order to be less threatening to white people. I think many white people are in complete denial about their own bias. How do I know? I was one of them.

What's odd is I can't remember a single negative interaction I have had with a black person.

Fla-These guys were just dressed like people walking on a trail.

Am I a racist? I don't know. But, I can tell you this...now knowing I have bias I can make a concerted effort not to discriminate. I think it starts there...with me. I can make an effort. I can break through my own denial. I can talk about things that make me really uncomfortable.

[Slapstick]

I long for a day when no one will make any kind of distinction based on skin color, when there will be only one "race" recognized by the people of this world: the human race.

I had thought that, in this country, we were heading in that direction, but these past few years, it appears we've changed course and are moving in the opposite way.

I think it's more complex than that. I think we white people fooled ourselves into thinking that things were headed in the right direction...when confronted with the reality, some people can't deal with it and react poorly...

[Shawn]

I think it's more complex than that. I think we white people fooled ourselves into thinking that things were headed in the right direction...when confronted with the reality, some people can't deal with it and react poorly... I think we are in denial about our own bias and how that bias is often subtle and systemic. The quieter bias and racism IMO is actually more dangerous.

[Flasteel]

he didn't say he was racist.

he perfectly described his bias/fear and was honest about wanting to know why that fear exist. Is it based on personal experience, something in his past or just due to news, media, tv shows and movies?

That fear Shawn feels, as a black man I have seen that fear for 30+ years of my life. Why should I have to wear a suit and tie to make people feel better about their irrational fear of Black males?

I'm not about to assert that there is no irrational fear of Black males...amongst Whites or any other racial demographic. I would also never disrespect anything you've had to personally deal with. My apologies if anything I stated gave that impression.

My only assertion was that perhaps Shawn's "fight or flight" response was triggered not by race, but the fact that they were two young males. Every single one of us have that internal alarm system that alerts us possible threats. Mine would likely go off anytime I'm walking alone and two young men of any race crossed my path. I may not feel scared or overtly threatened, but I'm definitely on alert.

I don't want to pretend to know what Shawn was actually thinking or what may have actually triggered the threat response. But if this incident served as some sort of epiphany for Shawn, then I just wanted to point out that maybe the reaction he had would have been there regardless of their race.

When I stated that he was spot-on with his other comments, I was referring to the way our threat assessments are shaped by the media, experiences, movies, or other influences. Like I stated before, we all have them...even you Dizz. I'd be willing to bet that most Black folks if walking alone, would likely be wary of two Black male youth who were crossing their path.

None of us are immune from the conditioning.

[BradshawsHairdresser]

My only assertion was that perhaps Shawn's "fight or flight" response was triggered not by race, but the fact that they were two young males. Every single one of us have that internal alarm system that alerts us possible threats. Mine would likely go off anytime I'm walking alone and two young men of any race crossed my path. I may not feel scared or overtly threatened, but I'm definitely on alert.


My sentiment as well.

[feltdizz]

I'm not about to assert that there is no irrational fear of Black males...amongst Whites or any other racial demographic. I would also never disrespect anything you've had to personally deal with. My apologies if anything I stated gave that impression.

My only assertion was that perhaps Shawn's "fight or flight" response was triggered not by race, but the fact that they were two young males. Every single one of us have that internal alarm system that alerts us possible threats. Mine would likely go off anytime I'm walking alone and two young men of any race crossed my path. I may not feel scared or overtly threatened, but I'm definitely on alert.

I don't want to pretend to know what Shawn was actually thinking or what may have actually triggered the threat response. But if this incident served as some sort of epiphany for Shawn, then I just wanted to point out that maybe the reaction he had would have been there regardless of their race.

When I stated that he was spot-on with his other comments, I was referring to the way our threat assessments are shaped by the media, experiences, movies, or other influences. Like I stated before, we all have them...even you Dizz. I'd be willing to bet that most Black folks if walking alone, would likely be wary of two Black male youth who were crossing their path.

None of us are immune from the conditioning.

This is a bet you would lose. This isn't true at all.

Most Black people aren't wary of Black youth. The most we do is shake our head at their fashion choices (skinny jeans and skinny sweats)

[Captain Lemming]

I'd be willing to bet that if the two young men you referenced were wearing shirts and ties, you wouldn't have noticed any "fight or flight" response. Conversely, if two white young men...or Asian young men were walking towards you all tatted up and rocking hoodies, that same response would likely kick-in. Is that racism? Of course not. It is what we have conditioned ourselves to possibly be a threat. Two young males can be threatening to a lot of folks depending on where you are and other circumstances, such as appearance.

You are spot-on with some of your observations brother, but I don't think you are racist because of your reaction.

As a member of the religion that is best known for knocking on doors to talk about the Bible in pairs, I have frequently been one of "two black guys wearing ties". :)

There certainly is a different perception when I wore a tie as a young man.

But please hear and understand the following point. You spoke of two white or Asian guys "all tatted up", or perhaps in some other way looking thuggish.

My friend the issue is when I was young I was perceived negativily "by default". I never dressed or acted in any way particularly thuggish. Casual dress is all it would take. Skin color was my tats.

Heck, I have NEVER ONCE IN MY LIFE punched someone in anger, even as a kid. I am in reality likely the least "threatening" guy you will ever meet. Yet when some crime or vandelism happened in my neighborhood cops come knocking on our door suspecting one of the boys in my family did it. I'd see those nervous reactions Shawn honestly described all the time.

Shawn spoke of media portrayals and is spot on. The funny thing is that once I started having to wear glasses, suddenly I was far less threatening. I can't help but think media stereotypes of the guy with glasses always being some safe nerd (Urkel) created some bizarre idea that I am suddenly far less likely to be a criminal?

Now in my 50s I feel far less judged in that way

But young black males should not have to nerdify themselves not to be treated as thugs.

[RuthlessBurgher]

You may have a point about the glasses. Bringing it back to football somewhat, Von Miller's first 5 years in the league are quite comparable to the first 5 years of Lawrence Taylor. But Von doesn't seem as intimidating of an OLB as L.T. because of the glasses. Similarly, Mike Singletary was an animal as a MLB, but because of the glasses, he wasn't as scary as a Butkus or a Lambert, for instance.

[BradshawsHairdresser]

You may have a point about the glasses. Bringing it back to football somewhat, Von Miller's first 5 years in the league are quite comparable to the first 5 years of Lawrence Taylor. But Von doesn't seem as intimidating of an OLB as L.T. because of the glasses. Similarly, Mike Singletary was an animal as a MLB, but because of the glasses, he wasn't as scary as a Butkus or a Lambert, for instance.

I don't feel that way at all. Both Von Miller and Mike Singletary seemed like beasts to me; whether they wore glasses or not is irrelevant.

[Captain Lemming]

You may have a point about the glasses. Bringing it back to football somewhat, Von Miller's first 5 years in the league are quite comparable to the first 5 years of Lawrence Taylor. But Von doesn't seem as intimidating of an OLB as L.T. because of the glasses. Similarly, Mike Singletary was an animal as a MLB, but because of the glasses, he wasn't as scary as a Butkus or a Lambert, for instance.

"Cliff Paul?"

http://v022o.popscreen.com/Z3ZpaDhtUTFIMVEx_o_state-farm-commercial---heritage-of-the-assist-chris-.jpg :)

[Flasteel]

As a member of the religion that is best known for knocking on doors to talk about the Bible in pairs, I have frequently been one of "two black guys wearing ties". :)

There certainly is a different perception when I wore a tie as a young man.

But please hear and understand the following point. You spoke of two white or Asian guys "all tatted up", or perhaps in some other way looking thuggish.

My friend the issue is when I was young I was perceived negativily "by default". I never dressed or acted in any way particularly thuggish. Casual dress is all it would take. Skin color was my tats.

Heck, I have NEVER ONCE IN MY LIFE punched someone in anger, even as a kid. I am in reality likely the least "threatening" guy you will ever meet. Yet when some crime or vandelism happened in my neighborhood cops come knocking on our door suspecting one of the boys in my family did it. I'd see those nervous reactions Shawn honestly described all the time.

Shawn spoke of media portrayals and is spot on. The funny thing is that once I started having to wear glasses, suddenly I was far less threatening. I can't help but think media stereotypes of the guy with glasses always being some safe nerd (Urkel) created some bizarre idea that I am suddenly far less likely to be a criminal?

Now in my 50s I feel far less judged in that way

But young black males should not have to nerdify themselves not to be treated as thugs.

At the risk of steering this back away from football, I think you painted a perfect picture of the irrational fear that we mentioned previously. When a young man who would otherwise be considered non-threatening is suddenly considered a threat because they happened to be Black.

[Flasteel]

This is a bet you would lose. This isn't true at all.

Most Black people aren't wary of Black youth. The most we do is shake our head at their fashion choices (skinny jeans and skinny sweats)

Maybe you're right, maybe not. All I can tell you is that as a White guy, my radar is activated if I'm alone and cross paths with a couple of White male youth. It's nearly always going to be dictated by their appearance and mannerisms, but it's still there. I find it hard to believe that Black folks wouldn't have the same reaction.

"Oh...those young men are Black, so I must be safe". Hmmm...

[Oviedo]

So now this thread is about social behavior????????????????????????????

That usually means time to archive it

[Flasteel]

So now this thread is about social behavior????????????????????????????

That usually means time to archive it

My bad! :-)

[Shawn]

So now this thread is about social behavior????????????????????????????

That usually means time to archive it yes, because goodness forbid we have a meaningful non-football related conversation in the offseason.

[feltdizz]

Maybe you're right, maybe not. All I can tell you is that as a White guy, my radar is activated if I'm alone and cross paths with a couple of White male youth. It's nearly always going to be dictated by their appearance and mannerisms, but it's still there. I find it hard to believe that Black folks wouldn't have the same reaction.

"Oh...those young men are Black, so I must be safe". Hmmm...

More like... "oh, 2 Black men.. " and we go about our business.

I'm not saying it doesnt occur, especially with women in certain situations but the majority of the time we arent fearful when we see 2 males approaching.

[Slapstick]

So now this thread is about social behavior????????????????????????????

That usually means time to archive it

You can save it! Make a disparaging remark about Jarvis Jones or Dick LeBeau!!

[bostonsteeler]

You can save it! Make a disparaging remark about Jarvis Jones or Dick LeBeau!!


Jarvis Jones is a Bum. Haley is an awesome coach, and a great hire. Ben's a bum, and he's why we haven't made another SB. He personally lost us the last one.

Cue unnamabale person and a 123 page rant in 1..2..3..