The Myth of BPA

[phillyesq]

According to the link below, the Steelers had higher grades on DTs but went with Burns anyway:

http://www.observer-reporter.com/20160429/making_sense_of_the_artie_burns_pick#.VyLjgXy50BM. twitter

Quite simply, they reached for a position of need. We saw how well that worked out with Troy Edwards. Let's hope that the DTs they passed on do not become the equivalent of missing on Jevon Kearse / John Tait again.

This is the second year in a row that the Steelers reached for a corner, and I say that as a guy who didn't hate the Golson pick. These corners absolutely need to play up to their draft status, or the franchise will suffer a setback similar to the huge misses in 2008.

[Coolie Man]

But if you look at it like they try to spin ****,He won't play defense this year so it'll be like another 1st round pick in 2017. Lol

[BradshawsHairdresser]

But if you look at it like they try to spin ****,He won't play defense this year so it'll be like another 1st round pick in 2017. Lol

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Oviedo]

Add jarvis Jones for "reach" for a position of need. They overdrafted Jones because they lost Harrison and were desperate for a pass rushing OLB...and they they didn't get one in Jones. IMO desperation for secondary kinda resulted in the same situation last night with Burns.

I am more optimistic with Burns because when the Steelers go for exceptional athletic capabilities it seems to pan out, i.e. Troy, Timmons, Stupidio Holmes, Dupree, etc. Burns seems to have that characteristic.

I'm not totally down on the Burns pick. My mock had him as our 2nd Round pick so I liked what he offered and that was before he started climbing up the boards. I just think we passed on some more talented players who could have contributed sooner.

That said, I'm now a Burns fan and pulling for the kid to prove us all wrong. My bigger concern than Burns himself is whether Lake can develop him. Not liking the track record the past few years.

[BradshawsHairdresser]

According to the link below, the Steelers had higher grades on DTs but went with Burns anyway:

http://www.observer-reporter.com/20160429/making_sense_of_the_artie_burns_pick#.VyLjgXy50BM. twitter

Quite simply, they reached for a position of need. We saw how well that worked out with Troy Edwards. Let's hope that the DTs they passed on do not become the equivalent of missing on Jevon Kearse / John Tait again.

This is the second year in a row that the Steelers reached for a corner, and I say that as a guy who didn't hate the Golson pick. These corners absolutely need to play up to their draft status, or the franchise will suffer a setback similar to the huge misses in 2008.
:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap

[SidSmythe]

Don't even compare BURNS with JJ.
BURNS has production and measurable. JJ was pedestrian with his speed and had skinny arms! HaHa

NOT a HUGE fan but I like him better than WILLIAM JACKSON the TURD going into this thing.

[Coolie Man]

Burns managed 7 reps of 225

[Slapstick]

Burns also had 6 INTs, leading the ACC. You could conceivably call it a reach, but everything I saw about Burns was a late first round/early second round grade...

Neither Burns nor Jones were actually a reach in the first round. They were both drafted exactly where they were graded. If a draft pick doesn't pan out after the fact, that does not retroactively make that pick a reach.

Troy Edwards was a true reach in 1999...

[feltdizz]

somehow the 2016 Steeler pick turns into another Jones bashing thread. lmao

[phillyesq]

I'm not totally down on the Burns pick. My mock had him as our 2nd Round pick so I liked what he offered and that was before he started climbing up the boards. I just think we passed on some more talented players who could have contributed sooner.

That said, I'm now a Burns fan and pulling for the kid to prove us all wrong. My bigger concern than Burns himself is whether Lake can develop him. Not liking the track record the past few years.

I agree with you. First and foremost, now that he is here, I'm a Burns fan. I like his physical traits and his upside. I just see a raw corner like that as a second rounder, not a first rounder, particularly when there were higher rated players at a position of need.

The last raw corner that the Steelers developed was Ike Taylor, so they don't exactly have a good track record here. I hope that Burns lives up to the potential, but as Ruthless said in the other thread, I'm not a big fan of a complete boom / bust pick in the first.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Because Lolley mentions matter of factly that they had a higher grade on tackles does not convince me that it is so.

[feltdizz]

Because Lolley mentions matter of factly that they had a higher grade on tackles does not convince me that it is so.

I think our philosophy has always been BPA and need. There are a lot of quality DL's left.

I think we finally drafted CB in the first and people are still upset. It's not like we were top 10. We were 25th.

[Oviedo]

I think our philosophy has always been BPA and need. There are a lot of quality DL's left.

I think we finally drafted CB in the first and people are still upset. It's not like we were top 10. We were 25th.

Well the last CB we took in Round 1 was "Charred" Scott and now we got a guy named Burns as in burnt." Can't really love that symmetry;)

[squidkid]

it was a reach but maybe a reach made with the thought that the talent level drop off of the remaining cb's was much bigger than the drop off of remaining dl's
i know at least 3 or 4 DLs were predicted to be drafted in round 1 (thru numerous draft sites) that are still available starting round 2

[RuthlessBurgher]

According to the link below, the Steelers had higher grades on DTs but went with Burns anyway:

http://www.observer-reporter.com/20160429/making_sense_of_the_artie_burns_pick#.VyLjgXy50BM. twitter

Quite simply, they reached for a position of need. We saw how well that worked out with Troy Edwards. Let's hope that the DTs they passed on do not become the equivalent of missing on Jevon Kearse / John Tait again.

This is the second year in a row that the Steelers reached for a corner, and I say that as a guy who didn't hate the Golson pick. These corners absolutely need to play up to their draft status, or the franchise will suffer a setback similar to the huge misses in 2008.

I think many Steeler fans looked at the CB prospects and saw a substantial drop after Ramsey, Hargreaves, Apple, and Jackson...thus everyone calling this pick a reach.

But it's quite possible that the Steeler brass looked at the CB prospects and saw a substantial drop after Ramsey, Hargreaves, Apple, Jackson, and Burns. Maybe Mackenzie Alexander's personality rubbed them the wrong way (plus the fact that he has zero interceptions in his college career) and they weren't confident in Kendall Fuller's medical reports.

I could easily see how guys like Andrew Billings, Jarran Reed, A'Shawn Robinson, etc. might have been ranked a bit higher on the Steelers overall draft board, but because of the extraordinary depth at DT, they might be able to get one of those guys tonight (or Austin Johnson, Chris Jones, Javon Hargrave, Jihad Ward, etc.).

It's a simple matter of supply and demand. To make a fantasy football comparison, you tend to get the most points from your QB, so novice fantasy players tend to take a top notch QB early (their draft guide tells them that Aaron Rodgers scores more fantasy points than Le'Veon Bell, so they take Rodgers without thinking twice about it). But there are a lot of good QB options out there, so seasoned players know that they can wait a bit to draft a QB and still land a good one. On the other hand, workhorse RB's who aren't in a committee that can get you points on the ground, through the air, and score in the red zone are very rare commodities. Since there are only a handful of them available, they go quick, and you'll be left out of the party if you don't take one early. Taking an elite back early like Le'Veon Bell and then waiting for a reasonably solid QB like, say, Matt Ryan later is a better option than going with a top notch QB early like Aaron Rodgers and then ending up with someone like Alfred Morris as a starting RB later. In this comparison, super-athletic CB prospects this year are rare like workhorse RB's are in fantasy, while solid DT prospects are plentiful this year, like solid QB options in fantasy. Make sense?

Let's say, for instance, among the guys available to them at #25, they had mid-first round grades for 3 DT's, late-first grades for another 2 DT's, 2 more DT's with early-to-mid second grades, and another 3 DT's with mid-to-late second round grades. That's 10 possible DT's they like who might fall into their laps at #58. And at CB, maybe they had Artie Burns with a late-first round grade, and the next tier of corners perhaps had late-second, early-third round grades in their eyes. Objectively, the 3 DT's with mid-first round grades would be ranked higher on their board than a CB with a late first round grade...oh no, they reached for need instead of staying true to their board! But if Burns was the last available CB they really liked, and they would be happier with any one of 10 different DT prospects who might fall to them in round 2 as compared to any of the remaining CB prospects after Burns...then they made a prudent decision in the grand scheme of things. We'll see what happens.

Basically, to sum up a lot of words and examples, if they aren't impressed with the overall depth at corner by comparison to defensive tackle, then it actually makes sense to take a guy they like from the shallow pool (CB) first, and then wait for someone of similar value from the deeper pool (DT) to fall to you later.

[RuthlessBurgher]

it was a reach but maybe a reach made with the thought that the talent level drop off of the remaining cb's was much bigger than the drop off of remaining dl's
i know at least 3 or 4 DLs were predicted to be drafted in round 1 (thru numerous draft sites) that are still available starting round 2

Your comment wasn't here when I started my long winded response, but what you wrote here pretty sums up the gist of all my rambling. What he said. ;)

[feltdizz]

it was a reach but maybe a reach made with the thought that the talent level drop off of the remaining cb's was much bigger than the drop off of remaining dl's
i know at least 3 or 4 DLs were predicted to be drafted in round 1 (thru numerous draft sites) that are still available starting round 2

+1.. thank you. I was trying to think of a way to say this but got sidetracked with work.

[The Man of Steel]

Burns also had 6 INTs, leading the ACC. You could conceivably call it a reach, but everything I saw about Burns was a late first round/early second round grade...

Neither Burns nor Jones were actually a reach in the first round. They were both drafted exactly where they were graded. If a draft pick doesn't pan out after the fact, that does not retroactively make that pick a reach.

Troy Edwards was a true reach in 1999...
I seem to recall that the Steelers really wanted David Boston in 1999 but he got drafted like 5 picks earlier so instead the Steelers went ahead and reached for Edwards. Similar to last night I guess when they couldn't get WJ3 so they grabbed for the table scraps instead of starving.

[squidkid]

Your comment wasn't here when I started my long winded response, but what you wrote here pretty sums up the gist of all my rambling. What he said. ;)


now if they dont go s and dl tonight, i'm gonna lose it.....lol

[RuthlessBurgher]

now if they dont go s and dl tonight, i'm gonna lose it.....lol

If they are able to land a quality d-lineman and safety tonight, then everything else tomorrow is gravy.

[squidkid]

If they are able to land a quality d-lineman and safety tonight, then everything else tomorrow is gravy.


agreed.
i will also be fine with an OLB tonight

[dreegking]

Lewis wasn't developed? And Frankly even Gay was developed and has contributed to a high level. Even last year he was ranked 23rd of all cornerbacks in the NFL . Not bad for someone who can't play and was small and weak and slow and low pick. Not to mention playing out of position according to the club.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

+1.. thank you. I was trying to think of a way to say this but got sidetracked with work.
Also buying in to this theory... though I don't like it, I get it.

still hoping for a trade up a few slots in 2 to just grab an NT. like I said in another thread, had you told me the first two picks were say Billings and Burns, I probably wouldn't care what order, or even if they traded up to get one of them... The draft would instantly become an A regardless of other picks, IMO

(there... I can be an optimist)

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Lewis wasn't developed? And Frankly even Gay was developed and has contributed to a high level. Even last year he was ranked 23rd of all cornerbacks in the NFL . Not bad for someone who can't play and was small and weak and slow and low pick. Not to mention playing out of position according to the club.
Gay was a 2nd round talent who played at Louisville. He came in THAT good, but, nobody knew it, because, again, he played at Louisville (except your resident Louisvillian, of course).

On draft day, I proclaimed he was the next "Deshea"... and it's pretty f'ing spot on.

[dreegking]

Let's say the article is an insider and completely correct. What is hard to understand about "slightly higher"? What is hard to understand about upside (which is obvious with Burns more limited focus on football up until now)? What is hard to understand about measuring grades and rank on the big board versus area of need? Can anyone tell me if they ranked a guy slightly higher grade in a part time position (presumably), versus an every down player, you would do it differently?

Seems like the right pick to me.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Let's say the article is an insider and completely correct. What is hard to understand about "slightly higher"? What is hard to understand about upside (which is obvious with Burns more limited focus on football up until now)? What is hard to understand about measuring grades versus area of need.

Seems like the right pick to me?
certainly a reasonable selection, all things considered. You could assume they felt he was the last in that tier of CBs - that there was a drop-off between him and the next CB - because they weren't even willing to trade back 5 spots and risk not getting him.

[dreegking]

My error SteelerofDeVille. I thought Gay was a fourth rounder. And yes, you nailed it. He has been Townsend-like.

That said. I stand by my general assertions. Lake has done well enough with what he has had in his tenure. Lots of guys have been developed and exceeded expectations or rankings. But now it is time time find out if he can turn Golsen into another Gay and Burns into a better Ike. Heck, I'd certainly take an Ike, but Burns will get more picks if he plays like an Ike. For ten years Ike was a top 15 corner. I'll take that from a late first rounder, in Burns. Obviously I hope for a top ten eventually. But, we shall see how it all pans out. We have no choice. :)

[SteelerOfDeVille]

My error. I thought he was a fourth rounder. That said. I stand by my general assertions. Lake has done well enough with what he has had in his tenure. Lots of guys have been developed and exceeded expectations or rankings. But now it is time time find out if he can turn Golsen into another Gay and Burns into a better Ike. Heck, I'd certainly take an Ike, but Burns will get more picks if he plays like an Ike. For ten years Ike was a top 15 corner. I'll take that from a late first rounder, in Burns. Obviously I hope for a top ten eventually. But, we shall see how it all pans out. We have no choice. :)
nooooo... he wasn't drafted in the second... i was saying that he was a second round talent who played for a school with no reputation for putting out players of that caliber and consequently went a couple of rounds later than he would have had he gone to Ohio State, for example...

I just happened to have a couple of full seasons watching game tape (as a fan) and knew the real deal...

[dreegking]

nooooo... he wasn't drafted in the second... i was saying that he was a second round talent who played for a school with no reputation for putting out players of that caliber and consequently went a couple of rounds later than he would have had he gone to Ohio State, for example...

I just happened to have a couple of full seasons watching game tape (as a fan) and knew the real deal...

Oh, gotcha.

Gay was a fifth rounder. I was also happy with this pick back in the day. He has turned out just fine. Guess Lake didn't screw him up too badly. LOL.

[RuthlessBurgher]

On draft day, I proclaimed he was the next "Deshea"... and it's pretty f'ing spot on.

WRONG!!! Gay was the next Willie Williams. Both left and came back again. Neener neener ha ha. ;)

[SteelerOfDeVille]

WRONG!!! Gay was the next Willie Williams. Both left and came back again. Neener neener ha ha. ;)
:Blah:Blah:Blah:Blah
:moon:moon:moon:moon:moon

Whateverrrrr

:-P

[Captain Lemming]

The last raw corner that the Steelers developed was Ike Taylor, so they don't exactly have a good track record here.

Ike is the last raw corner with elite measurable. That unit is devoid of talent. Munchak is a genius for developing a unit with TWO first rounders and a second into a solid line and what does Lake get to work with? Gay is MUCH better now than he was before Lake. Lewis went from disappointment to "getting paid" under Lake.

This is the first real opportunity/test for Lake to work with real talent drafted during his tenure.

[Slapstick]

The real myth is that we, on this message board, can truly judge BPA at the NFL level....

[RobinCole]

Did someone mention that Burns "managed" to BP seven reps at 225? I am just wondering whether bench press prowess is all that important for a CB. How many reps could Deion Sanders do? Or Ike? At any rate, if it's that important it can be improved. Maybe it's not that important for a safety either. I recall reading several times that Polamalu did not do much weight training. .

[Oviedo]

The real myth is that we, on this message board, can truly judge BPA at the NFL level....

No truer statement. What they do or don't do on the field really tells the story

[Slapstick]

Did someone mention that Burns "managed" to BP seven reps at 225? I am just wondering whether bench press prowess is all that important for a CB. How many reps could Deion Sanders do? Or Ike? At any rate, if it's that important it can be improved. Maybe it's not that important for a safety either. I recall reading several times that Polamalu did not do much weight training. .

Also, while his teammates were lifting in the spring, Burns was running track for the U...

[Captain Lemming]

Also, while his teammates were lifting in the spring, Burns was running track for the U...

Obviosly bulking up from an already solid 190 is reason enough for a "hurdler" to want to add more upper body mass. ;)

[Eddie Spaghetti]

Burns also has longer arms than most CBs, so his numbers will suffer in the bench

[SS Laser]

The real myth is that we, on this message board, can truly judge BPA at the NFL level....
Thank you sir! And thank you to every one for saying all the weight lifting points I was going to make.
I will add my stance on Burns. I was shocked when the media and fan graded top CB's were off the board. No one knows how each team grades these players. They have TONS more info on them then the mock draft guys. And all the inside info by the media is mostly BS. As teams are not going to tip there hand IMO. Also maybe the Steelers had Burns ranked/graded as the 3rd best CB!
Any way I have very much warmed up to the pick and like it. Just for squiddy he is HOF bound best pick in the draft! :D No really I have hope he can be more like Bell or Bryant on the field then say Timmons or Ike. They took a few seasons to shine. If Burns can contribute and show glimpses of being a very good CB this season it was a great pick. I have faith in the Steelers!