PDA

View Full Version : Sad Day In Steelers' Sports History



flippy
02-02-2015, 08:31 AM
Bill Belichick wins SuperBowl #4 and ties Chuck Noll as one of 2 coaches with 4 Super Bowl victories.

Has Bill firmly established himself as the greatest coach of all time?

I suspect half the answers to the question will be - "but he cheated."

I say it's irrelevant. We cheated, they cheated, everyone in the NFL cheats on some level. Let's just look at what both men accomplished:

Bill Belichick - 20 years
Wins/Losses - 211/109
Win % - .659
Playoff Wins/Losses - 22/9
Playoff Win % - .710

Chuck Noll - 23 years
Wins/Losses - 193/148
Win % - .566
Playoff Wins/Losses - 16/8
Playoff Win % - .667

With equal amounts of SuperBowls, I'm not sure how you can give the edge to Noll any longer. He didn't win as high a percentage of games in the regular season or playoffs. Bill has been to 2 more SuperBowls.

Maybe you could argue the Patriot teams were not as dominant as the Steelers Super Bowl winners. But that takes away the context of the era of when they played. It's much more difficult to assemble a team in the era of Free Agency.

You can also argue Belichick has been far more consistent over a longer time. After his first season in NE, he's had 14 straight winning seasons. And incredibly, they were only under 10 wins in one of those seasons.

The length of their run is pretty amazing. And there's no reason to think they are going to drop off in production now. They will still be at the top of the AFC for the next several years contending for the Super Bowl.

Another thing to consider - after Chuck Noll's 4th SuperBowl, he coached another 12 seasons. In those 12 seasons, he had 1 season with 10 victories. None better than 10.

Bill B started out slow in his first 6 seasons, but has been amazing since. I hate the Patriots, so I'm basically looking for any argument that they suck. But I just can't find the story of the Patriots sucking in their numbers and results over the year.

I'm looking for evidence that has nothing to do with cheating. That's a cheap, weak, and lazy argument imho. So what have you got to make my day brighter?

The only cure might be winning another Lombardi...

tiproast
02-02-2015, 08:54 AM
Good post, Flippy.

From a Greg Bedard column in SI:

"It doesn’t look like it’s the end for this group. The Patriots were the youngest team ever to win a Super Bowl, with an average age of 25.2 years."

I know this isn't going to make your day brighter, but I thought you might like to know about it.

Slapstick
02-02-2015, 09:18 AM
They did cheat and it is relevant.

Steelhere10
02-02-2015, 09:19 AM
Different time different era. pats play in a division that haven't had a decent Qb in 15 years. Noll coached against several dynasty teams. Case closed.

BradshawsHairdresser
02-02-2015, 09:33 AM
Belichick doesn't win those first 3 SB's without illegal videotaping/Ernie Adams/plays being radioed in to Brady illegally. When it comes to actual coaching performance, Belicheat should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Chuck Noll.

flippy
02-02-2015, 09:54 AM
And we don't win our superbowls if our players aren't on steroids or we don't mysteriously lose college game tape of guys like john stallworth, etc.

I'm really trying to avoid going down the ethical/moral slope of this argument. Heck, our owner was into gambling and owned racetracks. Mixing gambling interests in football doesn't really form a solid base of putting our team on the high moral ground.

I'm assuming at the base of the argument that every team will try to win at all costs. Everyone cuts corners somewhere. I really don't see the Pats cheating as any worse than anything that anyone else tries to do.

So if you take that away, how do you make the case that Noll was better?

Steelhere10
02-02-2015, 10:05 AM
In an era with
Cowboys
Raiders
Dolphins
Oilers
Browns etc vs a division
With Jets, Dolphins Bills. Name 1 Qb capable of winning that division. Plus back then some of the stuff you are naming was not illegal back then. When it is and you still cheat is ummmm cheating.

BradshawsHairdresser
02-02-2015, 10:08 AM
And we don't win our superbowls if our players aren't on steroids or we don't mysteriously lose college game tape of guys like john stallworth, etc.

I'm really trying to avoid going down the ethical/moral slope of this argument.

Heck, our owner was into gambling and owned racetracks. Mixing gambling interests in football doesn't really form a solid base of putting our team on the high moral ground.

I'm assuming at the base of the argument that every team will try to win at all costs. Everyone cuts corners somewhere. I really don't see the Pats cheating as any worse than anything that anyone else tries to do.

So if you take that away, how do you make the case that Noll was better?

Do an google search and look into the spygate affair. It is absolutely staggering the extent the *'s went to. When Tom Brady said, "It's easy when you have all the answers," he was speaking of literally having the right calls because they knew exactly what the defense was going to do. Show me where Noll and the Steelers did anything like that.

Oh, and once again, steroids WEREN'T CHEATING back when the Steelers had their dynasty in the 70s, because they HADN'T YET BEEN BANNED by the NFL.

bostonsteeler
02-02-2015, 10:20 AM
Bill Belichick wins SuperBowl #4 and ties Chuck Noll as one of 2 coaches with 4 Super Bowl victories.

Has Bill firmly established himself as the greatest coach of all time?

I suspect half the answers to the question will be - "but he cheated."

I say it's irrelevant. We cheated, they cheated, everyone in the NFL cheats on some level. Let's just look at what both men accomplished:



Not even close. Belichik and the Pats cheated hugely in the early years, and there's reason to believe they never stopped. Merely because the comish doesn't want to acknowledge it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

What's worse is their obnoxious thumbing of their noses at the system. They actually pride themselves on their ability to beat it.

Sorry, but this is a sorry franchise. Please dont compare Belichik to Noll. Apples and dog turds.

flippy
02-02-2015, 10:31 AM
In an era with
Cowboys
Raiders
Dolphins
Oilers
Browns etc vs a division
With Jets, Dolphins Bills. Name 1 Qb capable of winning that division. Plus back then some of the stuff you are naming was not illegal back then. When it is and you still cheat is ummmm cheating.

I think you could claim that the Steelers, Colts, Ravens, etc. in today's era are just as formidable competition for the Pats as those teams were for us back in the 70s.

Steelhere10
02-02-2015, 10:38 AM
Not even close. I still need for you to name a decent Qb that played in the AFC EAST the last 15 years. That's 6 games a year along with the title.

flippy
02-02-2015, 10:41 AM
Do an google search and look into the spygate affair. It is absolutely staggering the extent the *'s went to. When Tom Brady said, "It's easy when you have all the answers," he was speaking of literally having the right calls because they knew exactly what the defense was going to do. Show me where Noll and the Steelers did anything like that.

Oh, and once again, steroids WEREN'T CHEATING back when the Steelers had their dynasty in the 70s, because they HADN'T YET BEEN BANNED by the NFL.

Since the dawn of sports, teams have been trying to steal other team's signals and plays. Sure, the lengths the Pats went to were beyond what anyone else had done before, but that doesn't mean everyone hasn't been trying to do it for all of time. Why do coaches cover their mouths when they call plays? Why do teams change their signals? etc. It's because they know the other team is trying to steal their signals if they can. It's upon every team to change and disguise their play calling/signals so other teams can't get an edge.

So of course, the Pats cheated, but it's no worse than what everyone else is trying to do to get an edge. They were just better at it based on what we know.

Speaking of steroids, who was that Steelers' team doctor that got in trouble for prescribing steroids only a few years ago? Let's be honest. James Harrison was one of the key cogs in recent Super Bowl runs for us. Do you really think he's never been on anything? Everything put in his body to be built like a mini tank are all clean and legit? I doubt it. Maybe there's a clean player here and there, but every team has someone bending the rules. To think otherwise is a bit naive imho. So I say everyone's cheating cancels everyone else out.

If you don't want to accept that we cheat too, I get it. But unless the NFL were to strike their records or ours or anyone else, our records and results are what they are. And by the numbers, our numbers don't compare favorably to theirs.

flippy
02-02-2015, 10:45 AM
Not even close. I still need for you to name a decent Qb that played in the AFC EAST the last 15 years. That's 6 games a year along with the title.

I don't see how that's relevant. There's loads of divisions without quality QBs, but that doesn't make teams with a good QB in those divisions have the success of the Pats over the last 15 years.

Steelhere10
02-02-2015, 10:45 AM
You think that the relationship that JH had with Goodell along with the legal troubles that he haven't been tested ??? I think you are fooling yourself.

Steelhere10
02-02-2015, 10:49 AM
You name one , who had been with team what? Two years at the end of his career who had one good season with them lmao.

tiproast
02-02-2015, 10:51 AM
You name one , who had been with team what? Two years at the end of his career who had one good season with them lmao.
Deleted my post - my numbers were wrong. Favre was pretty ordinary that one year with the Jets. It was after he left the Jets that he had a good year. Guess playing in the AFC East was too tough for him.

Slapstick
02-02-2015, 11:05 AM
Since the dawn of sports, teams have been trying to steal other team's signals and plays. Sure, the lengths the Pats went to were beyond what anyone else had done before, but that doesn't mean everyone hasn't been trying to do it for all of time. Why do coaches cover their mouths when they call plays? Why do teams change their signals? etc. It's because they know the other team is trying to steal their signals if they can. It's upon every team to change and disguise their play calling/signals so other teams can't get an edge.

So of course, the Pats cheated, but it's no worse than what everyone else is trying to do to get an edge. They were just better at it based on what we know.

Speaking of steroids, who was that Steelers' team doctor that got in trouble for prescribing steroids only a few years ago? Let's be honest. James Harrison was one of the key cogs in recent Super Bowl runs for us. Do you really think he's never been on anything? Everything put in his body to be built like a mini tank are all clean and legit? I doubt it. Maybe there's a clean player here and there, but every team has someone bending the rules. To think otherwise is a bit naive imho. So I say everyone's cheating cancels everyone else out.

If you don't want to accept that we cheat too, I get it. But unless the NFL were to strike their records or ours or anyone else, our records and results are what they are. And by the numbers, our numbers don't compare favorably to theirs.

Flippy, I don't know what happened or what you are smoking, but you are out of your damn mind. And not in a good way, like you usually are. Don't even try to justify the Pats** cheating with the weak-ass "everybody cheats" excuse. That's crap, because not everybody does. Do not even attempt to drag the Steelers through the mud along with the Pats**. Just stop.

SteelCrazy
02-02-2015, 11:23 AM
I think Belicheat is better at winning then Noll was...Noll had what 9 HOF players at the peak of success for the Steelers. Noll is definitely better at scouting, drafting, and coaching though. Noll coached from 9-5 during the season...thats it...he didnt coach 23 hours a day, 350 days a year like Belicheat. If Noll wouldhave dedicated himself to the game as Belicheat does, who's to say we dont win 6 SB's during the 70's. We had the talent to do so.......

Slapstick
02-02-2015, 11:39 AM
I think Belicheat is better at winning then Noll was...Noll had what 9 HOF players at the peak of success for the Steelers. Noll is definitely better at scouting, drafting, and coaching though. Noll coached from 9-5 during the season...thats it...he didnt coach 23 hours a day, 350 days a year like Belicheat. If Noll wouldhave dedicated himself to the game as Belicheat does, who's to say we dont win 6 SB's during the 70's. We had the talent to do so.......

When you are committed to winning without any regard to morals, principles or rules...and, the NFL turns a blind eye, condoning your behavior, your chances of winning are greatly increased...

Steelhere10
02-02-2015, 11:52 AM
When you are committed to winning without any regard to morals, principles or rules...and, the NFL turns a blind eye, condoning your behavior, your chances of winning are greatly increased...Exactly... Goodell and Kraft partied like it was 1999 last night.

SteelCrazy
02-02-2015, 11:56 AM
When you are committed to winning without any regard to morals, principles or rules...and, the NFL turns a blind eye, condoning your behavior, your chances of winning are greatly increased...

You're right. Its comparing apples to oranges like everyone loves to say...2 different times, 2 different styles and 2 different men. The game in the 70's wasnt what it is today. It was more about the game then, today it is more about the personal monetary outcome for everyone involved. The competitive spirit is still alive, but it isnt as high on the outcome as it used to be.

tiproast
02-02-2015, 12:09 PM
You're right. Its comparing apples to oranges like everyone loves to say...2 different times, 2 different styles and 2 different men. The game in the 70's wasnt what it is today. It was more about the game then, today it is more about the personal monetary outcome for everyone involved. The competitive spirit is still alive, but it isnt as high on the outcome as it used to be.
I started following football in the 1960s. The way I remember things back then, pro football players weren't paid a salary large enough to live on year round. Many of them had other jobs in the off-season. Lots of players smoked and let themselves get out of shape in the off-season.

It's not just the size and speed of the players that has changed since then, either. You can't get by (as easily) on pure athleticism - it's a team sport and 1 on 11 isn't going to work over a 16 game schedule. The smart coaches will find a way to minimize the effect of a Calvin Johnson or a Rob Gronkowski.

Put together better athletes, better coaching, the salary cap and free agency, and it's reasonable to make the case that it's much harder to achieve sustained success in the current era than it was back in the 60s & 70s.

buccoray61
02-02-2015, 12:31 PM
Why do you do this? SMH

Iron City Inc.
02-02-2015, 12:54 PM
Bill Belichick wins SuperBowl #4 and ties Chuck Noll as one of 2 coaches with 4 Super Bowl victories.

Has Bill firmly established himself as the greatest coach of all time?

I suspect half the answers to the question will be - "but he cheated."

I say it's irrelevant. We cheated, they cheated, everyone in the NFL cheats on some level. Let's just look at what both men accomplished:

Bill Belichick - 20 years
Wins/Losses - 211/109
Win % - .659
Playoff Wins/Losses - 22/9
Playoff Win % - .710

Chuck Noll - 23 years
Wins/Losses - 193/148
Win % - .566
Playoff Wins/Losses - 16/8
Playoff Win % - .667

With equal amounts of SuperBowls, I'm not sure how you can give the edge to Noll any longer. He didn't win as high a percentage of games in the regular season or playoffs. Bill has been to 2 more SuperBowls.

Maybe you could argue the Patriot teams were not as dominant as the Steelers Super Bowl winners. But that takes away the context of the era of when they played. It's much more difficult to assemble a team in the era of Free Agency.

You can also argue Belichick has been far more consistent over a longer time. After his first season in NE, he's had 14 straight winning seasons. And incredibly, they were only under 10 wins in one of those seasons.

The length of their run is pretty amazing. And there's no reason to think they are going to drop off in production now. They will still be at the top of the AFC for the next several years contending for the Super Bowl.

Another thing to consider - after Chuck Noll's 4th SuperBowl, he coached another 12 seasons. In those 12 seasons, he had 1 season with 10 victories. None better than 10.

Bill B started out slow in his first 6 seasons, but has been amazing since. I hate the Patriots, so I'm basically looking for any argument that they suck. But I just can't find the story of the Patriots sucking in their numbers and results over the year.

I'm looking for evidence that has nothing to do with cheating. That's a cheap, weak, and lazy argument imho. So what have you got to make my day brighter?

The only cure might be winning another Lombardi...

Loved Noll and was lucky enough to have met him and got to talk to him a bit at Latrobe. That said I never thought he was Lombardi or even Shula who he coached under. Doesn't mean he wasn't great but perhaps not as good as those two. BB may win a few more championships and he has to be looked at like Lombardi imho.

pfelix73
02-02-2015, 01:02 PM
"Maybe you could argue the Patriot teams were not as dominant as the Steelers Super Bowl winners. But that takes away the context of the era of when they played. It's much more difficult to assemble a team in the era of Free Agency."

I DISAGREE WITH THIS COMPLETELY. In fact, I think it's just the opposite. Now, you can easily sign a guy in need via FA. You couldn't do that back then. For example- Darrelle Revis. Or even what the Broncos tried to do 2 yrs ago and last year signing the defensive players....It's easier now to put together a winning team in no time at all.

Totally different. Patriots have had no competition in their division for years, so they get an easy pass. And talk about domination? LOL. They surely are not that!

tiproast
02-02-2015, 01:08 PM
Patriots have had no competition in their division for years, so they get an easy pass. And talk about domination? LOL. They surely are not that!
AFC East teams have been in 8 of the last 9 AFCC games. If the AFC East is so weak, why aren't they always one & done?

pfelix73
02-02-2015, 01:14 PM
Take a look at the records of the AFC east over the past few years and you'll answer it yourself. When your division can start putting in more than 1 team into the playoffs, get back w/ me. As far as the title to this thread-- LOL Sad day? Every day is a great day, especially when I don't have to shovel freaking snow all the time like up there in that NE area.

Oh sorry- 2010 ya'll did..

tiproast
02-02-2015, 01:19 PM
Every day is a great day, especially when I don't have to shovel freaking snow all the time like up there in that NE area.

Oh sorry- 2010 ya'll did..
No work for me today - we're in the middle of putting another foot of the white stuff on top of the three feet we got last week.

:cool:

pfelix73
02-02-2015, 01:26 PM
No work for me today - we're in the middle of putting another foot of the white stuff on top of the three feet we got last week.

:cool:

Enjoy! Just thinking- was gonna edit my last post- since I said what I said, our team couldn't beat the pi$$ out of a lousy team anyway... so what good would it do us if we were in a division with a bunch of alsorans anyways--- WE'D LOSE EM ALL.. Ex- Jets, TB, Oak, etc. Carry on....

B&GinNC
02-02-2015, 09:38 PM
One aspect I would consider in all this is the fact that Noll's record was somewhat compromised by the fact that he was performing not a rebuild, but a ground up build, of a franchise. He was 1 - 13 his first year after he cleaned house. First winning record in year 4, by which time he was 12 - 30 career. He had to change a culture that was every bit as bad as the worst you can think of in modern pro sports. Think Creamsicle Buccaneers. Think pre - Blake Griffin Clippers. 42 years, 1 postseason appearance.

Part of the animosity of this Super Bowl was in the fact that Bob Kraft fired Pete Carroll after 2 playoff appearances in 3 years at the Patriots' helm. Before that, Parcells was running the show. Not like the cupboard was bare when he took over. Not that he didn't improve the product, but Bill Parcells did the heavy lifting involved with changing the culture there.

tiproast
02-02-2015, 09:58 PM
One aspect I would consider in all this is the fact that Noll's record was somewhat compromised by the fact that he was performing not a rebuild, but a ground up build, of a franchise. He was 1 - 13 his first year after he cleaned house. First winning record in year 4, by which time he was 12 - 30 career. He had to change a culture that was every bit as bad as the worst you can think of in modern pro sports. Think Creamsicle Buccaneers. Think pre - Blake Griffin Clippers. 42 years, 1 postseason appearance.

Part of the animosity of this Super Bowl was in the fact that Bob Kraft fired Pete Carroll after 2 playoff appearances in 3 years at the Patriots' helm. Before that, Parcells was running the show. Not like the cupboard was bare when he took over. Not that he didn't improve the product, but Bill Parcells did the heavy lifting involved with changing the culture there.
You're 100% correct about Parcells changing the culture, but I think you're off-base a bit about Carroll's stint as Pats coach. He took Parcells' team and went 10-6, 9-7 and 8-8. The trend was definitely downward. He wasn't the only reason for that - the GM wasn't exactly restocking the roster every year. But a housecleaning was needed.

Thanks for the history lesson about Coach Noll - I knew he was responsible for building the 70s teams, but hadn't realized just how much credit he deserved.

flippy
02-03-2015, 07:36 AM
One aspect I would consider in all this is the fact that Noll's record was somewhat compromised by the fact that he was performing not a rebuild, but a ground up build, of a franchise. He was 1 - 13 his first year after he cleaned house. First winning record in year 4, by which time he was 12 - 30 career. He had to change a culture that was every bit as bad as the worst you can think of in modern pro sports. Think Creamsicle Buccaneers. Think pre - Blake Griffin Clippers. 42 years, 1 postseason appearance.

Part of the animosity of this Super Bowl was in the fact that Bob Kraft fired Pete Carroll after 2 playoff appearances in 3 years at the Patriots' helm. Before that, Parcells was running the show. Not like the cupboard was bare when he took over. Not that he didn't improve the product, but Bill Parcells did the heavy lifting involved with changing the culture there.

Good point!

We could also argue that Belichick had a similar opportunity in Cleveland and couldn't build a franchise from the ground up and see it through to success.

Perhaps you could argue that Bill is a good coach that needed the right circumstance to be successful. And that's fine. Not everyone can build something out of nothing. And at the same time, not everyone can take something and make it better.

What will be interesting is to see what Belichick does post Tom Brady.

You could probably argue both coaches had mediocre starts and then some success from there. Once Noll lost all his star players, his coaching career went a bit downhill. Curious if Bill will follow that curve in the future.

One thing's for sure, the Pats seem to have had a longer run of success while the Steelers were more dominant over a shorter period. Definitely 2 different scenarios. And probably some good luck/fortune on both sides.

The interesting thing about the Pats is they could have easily won 2 more SuperBowls during their run. Or they could have just as easily lost 4 more (or at least 3 of them).

steelblood
02-03-2015, 08:22 AM
Bill B is the greatest coach of all time, a dirty cheater in football and marriage, and the best football mind we have ever seen.

Tom B is the greatest whiner in all of sports (when Boston folks call Crosby a cry baby, I find it hilarious). Tom is the Bill Lambier of football. But, he is a fantastic QB with a great football intellect.

They are absolutely the most unlikeable championship coach and star we have ever seen. But, they are the best combo the NFL has ever seen. They adjust to rule changes better, bend the rules better, break the rules better, and know their opponents better (and yes taping helped) than anyone ever will.

steelblood
02-03-2015, 08:38 AM
Good post, Flippy.

From a Greg Bedard column in SI:

"It doesnít look like itís the end for this group. The Patriots were the youngest team ever to win a Super Bowl, with an average age of 25.2 years."

I know this isn't going to make your day brighter, but I thought you might like to know about it.

dude, don't act like you are only trying to help us out. That was a d-bag, rub it in moment. Don't you have a parade to snowshoe to?

but, maybe you need to remember that Brady is 37 and wilfork is 85. I am sure bill will restock. But, those guys may be once in a franchise's lifetime type players.

RobinCole
02-03-2015, 08:41 AM
I agree with pfelix. It is easier to assemble a winner in the free agency era than it was back in the '70s. But it's harder, if not impossible, to keep that winning team together. Today, nobody could afford eight or nine HOFers on one roster.

It took Noll four drafts to build a winner and two more to build a dynasty. The dynasty players stayed together for six-seven years, which is not possible today. Here is where Belichick must be given his due. Despite the constant turnover in the roster ( and drafting in the back end of every round) he keeps winning. Yes, being in a poor division helps, but it doesn't explain everything.

Slapstick
02-03-2015, 08:48 AM
dude, don't act like you are only trying to help us out. That was a d-bag, rub it in moment. Don't you have a parade to snowshoe to?

but, maybe you need to remember that Brady is 37 and wilfork is 85. I am sure bill will restock. But, those guys may be once in a franchise's lifetime type players.

Exactly. Unless Belicheat ramps the cheating back up to all-time levels, I don't there is any way that Janeane Garofalo will be as effective as Tom Brady...

pfelix73
02-03-2015, 12:27 PM
Bill B is the greatest coach of all time, a dirty cheater in football and marriage, and the best football mind we have ever seen.

Tom B is the greatest whiner in all of sports (when Boston folks call Crosby a cry baby, I find it hilarious). Tom is the Bill Lambier of football. But, he is a fantastic QB with a great football intellect.

They are absolutely the most unlikeable championship coach and star we have ever seen. But, they are the best combo the NFL has ever seen. They adjust to rule changes better, bend the rules better, break the rules better, and know their opponents better (and yes taping helped) than anyone ever will.

Eh, that's debatable. I still say Montana is/was the best QB of all time. Unitas close behind.

Let's also not forget what Bradshaw said. That he and Montana are still the only ones who can sit at the table as the only QB's to have won 4 Superbowls and to not lose any. 4-0 is perfection, not 4-2. They were 1 yard away to being the ONLY team in NFL history to lose 5 SB's.

As far as the best duo- even though I'm a Steeler fan, I'd still say Montana and Walsh were the best duo.

Let's see what Belicheat can do when Brady is shown the door in a few years.. He lucked out with drafting Tommy boy. Can lightning strike twice? doubt it. But here's where it's easier nowadays. Belicheat will have the opportunity to sign a FA QB ala Manning to Denver. Back in the day, not so much. Let's also not forget that back in the day, all those HOF'ers are not asking for $10-$20 million per season like they do today.

ikestops85
02-03-2015, 01:40 PM
Eh, that's debatable. I still say Montana is/was the best QB of all time. Unitas close behind.

Let's also not forget what Bradshaw said. That he and Montana are still the only ones who can sit at the table as the only QB's to have won 4 Superbowls and to not lose any. 4-0 is perfection, not 4-2. They were 1 yard away to being the ONLY team in NFL history to lose 5 SB's.

As far as the best duo- even though I'm a Steeler fan, I'd still say Montana and Walsh were the best duo.

Let's see what Belicheat can do when Brady is shown the door in a few years.. He lucked out with drafting Tommy boy. Can lightning strike twice? doubt it. But here's where it's easier nowadays. Belicheat will have the opportunity to sign a FA QB ala Manning to Denver. Back in the day, not so much. Let's also not forget that back in the day, all those HOF'ers are not asking for $10-$20 million per season like they do today.

I'm not so sure about the fact that Belicheat can't win without Brady. Didn't he go 11-5 the year Brady got hurt with a QB that hadn't played a meaningful down since High School? As much as I hate the *'s they've been consistent winners for a long time. It' painful but you have to give them props for that.

RuthlessBurgher
02-03-2015, 02:43 PM
I'm assuming at the base of the argument that every team will try to win at all costs. Everyone cuts corners somewhere. I really don't see the Pats cheating as any worse than anything that anyone else tries to do.

Larry Csonka found a misplaced Raiders playbook prior to a playoff game in Oakland back in the 70's. He gave it to his position coach, who turned it in to Don Shula. When the Dolphins lost the game, Csonka asked Coach Shula how they could possibly lose if they knew all of the opposing team's plays. Shula told him that he never even opened the playbook. He threw it away because he doesn't cheat.

birtikidis
02-03-2015, 05:28 PM
Larry Csonka found a misplaced Raiders playbook prior to a playoff game in Oakland back in the 70's. He gave it to his position coach, who turned it in to Don Shula. When the Dolphins lost the game, Csonka asked Coach Shula how they could possibly lose if they knew all of the opposing team's plays. Shula told him that he never even opened the playbook. He threw it away because he doesn't cheat.
I think sporsmanship is ingrained in nearly every coach in the NFL, especially coaches that played at any meaningful level. Guys that didn't could care less.

flippy
02-03-2015, 06:39 PM
Larry Csonka found a misplaced Raiders playbook prior to a playoff game in Oakland back in the 70's. He gave it to his position coach, who turned it in to Don Shula. When the Dolphins lost the game, Csonka asked Coach Shula how they could possibly lose if they knew all of the opposing team's plays. Shula told him that he never even opened the playbook. He threw it away because he doesn't cheat.

The honorable Don Shula was the same guy who signed with Miami while he was still a coach and under contract in Baltimore. The NFL instituted the no tampering rule because of good ole Don.

I think you can find good and bad in everyone. We're only human. People are generally good, but they all do things sometimes that aren't perfect.

Sugar
02-03-2015, 08:01 PM
I guess I just fail to see how the Steelers suffer if someone else succeeds- especially when the Steelers weren't even involved. If the Pat's or someone else won 10 Super Bowls it still doesn't diminish what the Steelers have done.

Slapstick
02-03-2015, 09:21 PM
The honorable Don Shula was the same guy who signed with Miami while he was still a coach and under contract in Baltimore. The NFL instituted the no tampering rule because of good ole Don.

I think you can find good and bad in everyone. We're only human. People are generally good, but they all do things sometimes that aren't perfect.

You would have a point, if only this were true...

Shula negotiated with the Dolphins, that's true. But, the NFL already had anti-tampering rules in place. They did not apply until the merger. If Shula and Joe Robbie had concluded their negotiations prior to the merger, there would have been no rule violation. It would have been no different than a college coach leaving his team to join the NFL. But, it became a violation after the fact...

Captain Lemming
02-04-2015, 04:32 AM
AFC East teams have been in 8 of the last 9 AFCC games. If the AFC East is so weak, why aren't they always one & done?

Because the north is one and done central.
Between us and Natti, we got like or 6 one and dones in the last 4 seasons. Save for the Ravens we've made no noise in the playoffs.

Captain Lemming
02-04-2015, 05:06 AM
Noll, is not close to BB.

Every single solitary ST Noll won had every single one of his NINE HOFers on the roster. Shell and Greenwood were deserving, that's 11.

Literally half the roster ALL TIME GREAT players.

When they lost their very first hall of famer they were done

Heck the Raiders smoked us when the team was at its peak, when we had only 8 of nine HOFERS in their prime.

BB had no more than one future HOFer who doesn't kick field goals on his first 3 championship teams until Gronk this year.

Our first round pick takes 4 years to grow to average. 8 years to get great. BB took a 6th round pick and made an all time great. Dude wins 10 games a year with not one but TWO college backup QBs.

Objectively, it ain't close

Slapstick
02-04-2015, 06:51 AM
I agree that it ain't close. One of them cheated.

BradshawsHairdresser
02-04-2015, 04:14 PM
Maybe all of those Steelers wouldn't have become HOF players without a really great head coach...whereas BB could win SBs without a bunch of HOF players because he cheated...

DukieBoy
02-04-2015, 10:55 PM
Not a fan of the Pats winning the SB given the record of recent controversies. Sorry if it deflates the passion here, but I don't think much of anything we say here will change the outcome, and I don't think the league will do anything about his episode of controversy other than some cosmetic actions.

Congrats to you though, Tip Roast, and cudo's for showing up on this board and adding to the discussion.

tiproast
02-05-2015, 12:06 AM
Congrats to you though, Tip Roast, and cudo's for showing up on this board and adding to the discussion.
Much appreciated.

And if it turns out that the Brady/BB/Kraft were behind the ball deflation thing, I'll come back and say you've been right all along about those guys.

My prediction, though, is that the Wells investigation will say that (a) Colts were right to report the situation, (b) the referees followed their normal procedures, at the start of the game the Colts balls were at top of legal range, the Pats balls were at the bottom of the legal range, and (c) the deflation was due to natural causes (i.e. 20 deg temperature drop). No apology will be offered - Roger was just "doing his job" by letting his office leak like a sieve, and it's too bad about Brady's reputation.

And most here will use this result as more evidence that the league is run at the whim of Robert Kraft. But if he really has that kind of power, would he have let this whole thing blow up before the Super Bowl?

BradshawsHairdresser
02-05-2015, 12:59 AM
My prediction, though, is that the Wells investigation will say that (a) Colts were right to report the situation, (b) the referees followed their normal procedures, at the start of the game the Colts balls were at top of legal range, the Pats balls were at the bottom of the legal range, and (c) the deflation was due to natural causes (i.e. 20 deg temperature drop).

The league might offer the "deflation due to natural causes" explanation, but it has been effectively debunked. But I agree with you in that I don't expect the NFL to do anything meaningful about the situation--I think Kraft's close friendship with Goodell will once again work to the *'s benefit. They don't call him the "assistant commissioner" for nothing.

Slapstick
02-05-2015, 07:05 AM
Just because one does not have the power to prevent proverbial "leaks" does not mean that the same person cannot avoid punishment.

RuthlessBurgher
02-05-2015, 11:13 AM
Sorry if it deflates the passion here

http://rs1img.memecdn.com/i-see-what-you-did-there_o_264214.jpg

Shoe
02-07-2015, 12:27 PM
You can compare the cheating (steroids) of the Steelers to the cheating of the Patriots* if you could say that the team itself doled out steroids to the players. Because otherwise, its just individual players doing it. i.e. the Patriots* certainly have individuals doing it, just as the (current) Steelers have individuals doing it, just like the rest of the league does. Its not the same thing.

The ball-pressure thing had an effect on every member of the team who handled the ball. It also effected the time the opposing offense got the ball (cause the Patriot* offense never fumbled). It ALSO caused teams to make bad financial decisions, based on how they did in NE*. Look at Benjarvus Green-Ellis. The guy was a star in NE*, never fumbling the ball ever. CIN, swayed by that amazing statistic, payed him a handsome salary (for a guy of his ability). And what did he do? He proceeded to turn into a ham & egger RB. Not only that, he turned into a fumbler.

Their cheating in this case is so wide-reaching. It is difficult to overstate.