Pats will get off this no punishment, Just watched new press conferance.

[SS Laser]

Here is the short version. They are saying that setting ball psi at low legal psi 12.5. Then roughed them up at the 12.5psi. That psi could have been also measured with inaccurate guage and at room temp. So then take them outside with action and the psi can and will drop. Now take them back to room temp etc. This psi stuff is very true to a point. Have done it on ATV, motorcycle, drag racing tires and even street tires. PSI can and will change. But if it is found that the pressure goes up with the "breaking" in the football it can be figured out to set them low rough them up at room temp they will be legal then take them outside in the COLD so they drop back down to under legal limit. This is a very easy rule to break I see now. And not look guilty. Or low guilty and not be.:) Maybe time to go to nitrogen. Some road race guys do that so pressures don't bounce around. Check all the balls at mile high. They will be different in another stadium for sure. Belicheat is a genius at skirting the rules for sure.

[D Rock]

The conditions were significant enough to cause a 2 psi drop. That's just an excuse that will be used, but it's not true.

[fordfixer]

This whole thing is just deflating

[SS Laser]

The conditions were significant enough to cause a 2 psi drop. That's just an excuse that will be used, but it's not true. How can you PROVE it is not true? I have seen it with many different tires? Easy to show I bet even with a football. I still think they knew what they were doing. Just easy to get away with is all. Oh and I bet not the only team. Good reason why the refs BEFORE they were notified by the NFL to check did not notice it. Happens all the time.

[Mr.wizard]

How can you PROVE it is not true? I have seen it with many different tires? Easy to show I bet even with a football. I still think they knew what they were doing. Just easy to get away with is all.

Actually it is very true and with a football constantly being squeezed and banged around in that weather 2 psi is very possible and if they where already at the very bottom of the legal scale then I could see it happening on accident as you would not be able to tell the difference between 12.5 psi and 10.5 psi.

[Sugar]

Great, so can we move on from this nonsense already?

[Steelwolf]

My opinion is that team is a waste and will always bend or break the rules.

The nfl has really become a joke

[SS Laser]

My opinion is that team is a waste and will always bend or break the rules.

The nfl has really become a joke Very sad but very true sir! But many teams look to bend the rules I am sure. NFL is just getting to big now a days. One day it will pop.:)

[Mr.wizard]

Any time you have a sport or business where there is this much money involved everyone is going to try and push the envelope. Is somebody going to tell me there is a team in the league that doesn't doctor footballs or doesn't have a guy on their team using performance enhancing drugs?

[Slapstick]

Actually it is very true and with a football constantly being squeezed and banged around in that weather 2 psi is very possible and if they where already at the very bottom of the legal scale then I could see it happening on accident as you would not be able to tell the difference between 12.5 psi and 10.5 psi.

You are dead wrong. 2 psi cannot be explained away that easily. And one can only truly feel the difference in the ball when you are gripping it, either to throw a pass or tucking to away when you are running it...

[Slapstick]

Any time you have a sport or business where there is this much money involved everyone is going to try and push the envelope. Is somebody going to tell me there is a team in the league that doesn't doctor footballs or doesn't have a guy on their team using performance enhancing drugs?

And when you decline to punish those who get caught, you are only condoning and encouraging the behavior...pathetic...

[SanAntonioSteelerFan]

Here is the short version. They are saying that setting ball psi at low legal psi 12.5. Then roughed them up at the 12.5psi. That psi could have been also measured with inaccurate guage and at room temp. So then take them outside with action and the psi can and will drop. Now take them back to room temp etc. This psi stuff is very true to a point. Have done it on ATV, motorcycle, drag racing tires and even street tires. PSI can and will change. But if it is found that the pressure goes up with the "breaking" in the football it can be figured out to set them low rough them up at room temp they will be legal then take them outside in the COLD so they drop back down to under legal limit. This is a very easy rule to break I see now. And not look guilty. Or low guilty and not be.:) Maybe time to go to nitrogen. Some road race guys do that so pressures don't bounce around. Check all the balls at mile high. They will be different in another stadium for sure. Belicheat is a genius at skirting the rules for sure.

Bogus (not you SS Laser, the explanation). Any exculpatory explanation would have to address why 1) the Colts balls weren't found to be deflated, just the **s balls, and 2) why the 2nd half balls weren't found to be low in pressure (when the temperature was at least a little cooler, certainly no warmer, than during the 1st half).

This latest obfuscation does neither of these two things. Next?

[D Rock]

Edit on my earlier post:

The conditions were NOT significant enough to cause that. It was over 50 degrees. The Colts balls didn't deflate. It was done intentionally.

[Mr.wizard]

And when you decline to punish those who get caught, you are only condoning and encouraging the behavior...pathetic...

Punishment doesn't matter, competitors at the highest level will aways seek an edge.

[bostonsteeler]

You are dead wrong. 2 psi cannot be explained away that easily. And one can only truly feel the difference in the ball when you are gripping it, either to throw a pass or tucking to away when you are running it...

And, of course, it only happened for 11 of the 12 balls, and only to the NE balls.

Whatever. Basically, they're going to get away with it, and the entire population of NE is going to feel vindicated. It will be like the jokers who ran around screaming "OJ is innocent" after the verdict.

[Slapstick]

Punishment doesn't matter, competitors at the highest level will aways seek an edge.

Right, so why even bother?

[Mr.wizard]

Right, so why even bother?

What are you talking about, you still have to prove what was done before you can punish anyone

[Slapstick]

What are you talking about, you still have to prove what was done before you can punish anyone

Really? Where was all the proof that got Roethlisberger suspended for six (four) games?

The balls were tampered with, period. The Colts' footballs were at the same game and under the same conditions but were properly filled.

[hawaiiansteel]

Bogus (not you SS Laser, the explanation). Any exculpatory explanation would have to address why 1) the Colts balls weren't found to be deflated, just the **s balls, and 2) why the 2nd half balls weren't found to be low in pressure (when the temperature was at least a little cooler, certainly no warmer, than during the 1st half).

This latest obfuscation does neither of these two things. Next?

will you please stop trying to apply logic to this discussion? :D

[pfelix73]

The weather channel did a brief study on footballs losing air pressure due to just weather conditions, and they said it ain't so. So what Bilichick said today is bunk.

Watched the PC and I couldn't stop laughing.. Kept thinking that Harbaugh and the Ravens were all watching and laughing too as maybe they started it all. Who knows.

Sounded to me that Bill wanted to put blame on the officials.....

[MCHammer]

Bogus (not you SS Laser, the explanation). Any exculpatory explanation would have to address why 1) the Colts balls weren't found to be deflated, just the **s balls, and 2) why the 2nd half balls weren't found to be low in pressure (when the temperature was at least a little cooler, certainly no warmer, than during the 1st half).

This latest obfuscation does neither of these two things. Next?

Exactly.

And for those arguing whether here or in other forums that the Pats were clever for underinflating them and then banging 'em up so they would pass the test, but deflate once they get outside and that's cool because the rules don't technically ban it, you disgust me. One, I don't buy that explanation for a minute. Two and more importantly, there is such a thing as honor and integrity. It's completely ridiculous to deliberately violate the spirit of the rules and then hide behind a rule book saying it's ok because this practice isn't specifically addressed in the rules.

Does the NFL have to spend the entire offseason coming up with new "thou shall not rules" to keep the Patriots from cheating? Belichick is some type of Terminator of cheating that will never stop trying to find a way to cheat and it's your fault if you don't specifically ban whatever sh*t he's going to try next? It's a f*&^ng ridiculous and completely low-rent stance to take, completely devoid of good faith, reason or self-respect.

[Moonie]

That Patriots are just un-American at this point. Baghdad Bellicheck and Taliban Tom leading the way to the demise of America's greatest invention - NFL football.

[fordfixer]

Report: Patriots' footballs altered by humans, not weather






http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/report-patriots-footballs-altered-by-humans-not-weather/ar-AA8vHnJ?ocid=ansUSAsports11

A report from SI's Peter King indicates that the weather couldn't have been the cause of the under-inflation of the Patriots' footballs. 

By Larry Brown

The NFL has conclusive evidence that the under-inflated footballs used by the New England Patriots in the AFC Championship Game were altered by people, eliminating some of the theories presented by those giving the Pats the benefit of the doubt, according to a report.

Monday Morning Quarterback’s Peter King reports that all 12 of the Patriots’ and all 12 of the Colts’ footballs left the officials’ locker room before the game at the proper level of inflation. He says when the balls were re-checked by officials at halftime, 11 OR 12 of the Patriots’ balls were under-inflated by two pounds per square inch, while the Colts’ balls remained the same level of pressure. The Patriots had to re-inflate their balls to normal levels for the second half, and when the balls were checked at the end of the game, all 24 were of proper inflation.

This new information presented by King leads to some important conclusions.

If King’s reporting is accurate, it tells us that the Colts’ balls maintained the same amount of inflation throughout the entire game. That eliminates the theory some had that the cold weather decreased the pressure in the footballs. And if King’s report that possibly all 12 of the Pats’ footballs tested at halftime were too low, compared to Chris Mortensen’s report that 11 of 12 were under-inflated, that wipes out another theory.

Larry Brown Sports writer Steve DelVecchio wondered if the officials were just lazy pregame and only checked one of the Patriots’ footballs pregame. His theory was that the Patriots properly inflated one ball, had it pass inspection, and the referees didn’t bother to check the other 11, which would put the error on the refs for allowing the Pats to sneak one past them. This theory appears to be incorrect because King says all the balls were of proper inflation before the game and that possibly all of the Pats’ balls were under-inflated at halftime.

What’s the conclusion? Probably some sort of equipment manager or staff member deflated the balls after they were checked or swapped balls with ones they secretly deflated to fit Tom Brady’s liking. That means Brady was cheating, with or without Bill Belichick’s knowledge (likely with, though the whole thing is more of a Brady deal).

You know what the incredible part of this whole controversy is? The Patriots outscored the Colts 28-0 in the second half of the game with the properly inflated footballs anyhow. But I think we’ve learned over time that the Pats want every advantage possible even if it means breaking the rules.

Suspending Belichick for the Super Bowl as some have suggested would be too harsh of a penalty, especially when you consider the team they’re facing in the big game has had a serious repeat-offender problem when it comes to PEDs.

[BradshawsHairdresser]

Body language analysis--Brady lied:

http://www.bodylanguagesuccess.com/2015/01/nonverbal-communication-analysis-no_22.html

[MCHammer]

Larry Brown Sports writer Steve DelVecchio wondered if the officials were just lazy pregame and only checked one of the Patriots’ footballs pregame. His theory was that the Patriots properly inflated one ball, had it pass inspection, and the referees didn’t bother to check the other 11, which would put the error on the refs for allowing the Pats to sneak one past them. This theory appears to be incorrect because King says all the balls were of proper inflation before the game and that possibly all of the Pats’ balls were under-inflated at halftime.

This is what I was talking about above. How is this a legitimate excuse? In what world is cheating excused simply because the refs failed to prevent you? This argument makes a mockery of fair play, allowing teams to intend to cheat and actually try to cheat and have a get out of jail free card because they happened to trick a ref into not stopping them. It is ludicrous and I am sick of reading it.

[BradshawsHairdresser]

More Brady body language analysis:

http://www.bodylanguagesuccess.com/2015/01/nonverbal-communication-analysis-no_24.html

[Moonie]

More Brady body language analysis:

http://www.bodylanguagesuccess.com/2015/01/nonverbal-communication-analysis-no_24.html

The guy looks like goddam Richard Nixon up there!

[fordfixer]

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/24/bill-belichick-deflategate-press-conference-new-england-patriots

[lord_of_six_rings]

Thanks for the new link, yeah it is interesting billicheat can give a physics lesson / science class but does it behind closed doors and doesn't provide any info to be peer reviewed. But as I said he is just trying to bully everyone saying its over because I am smarter than you.

Well, billicheat answer these questions .... and please provide your scratch work sheet so I can see your work - ding ding ding class is in session!


The problem I had is IF THE KING REPORTING IS ACCURATE, none of billicheat physics makes sense.
Huh, 11/ 12 ...why not all?
Pats balls effected but not colts or K balls?
The weather does the change up till half time, but not at end of game (balls stay the same)?
Speaking of weather, shouldn't the change be more dramatic at the end of game when it was colder?
Also, even bill little science can't compensate or explain the (reported) uniformity and 2lbs.?
Ok bill, marsha loves that "gronk spike which really lightens that ball....at half it was 17-7 and I think he spiked 1 or 2 of those 12 balls! How did rest lighten by the same amount?
Then, there is the statistics linked here yesterday http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-prevention-of-fumbles-is-nearly-impossible

[MCHammer]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24992056/bill-nye-the-science-guy-on-belichick-what-he-said-didnt-make-any-sense

Bill Nye the Science Guy on Belichick: 'What he said didn't make any sense'

[SteelBuckeye]

Andrew Luck with the zinger:


https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/BCAF2DAA951169938239915020288_23c3c5b10df.5.1.2208 746491084025080.mp4?versionId=l8Pv8PjaRDs2FdKWjrmR Y.11dpx84hVu

[Mr.wizard]

Thanks for the new link, yeah it is interesting billicheat can give a physics lesson / science class but does it behind closed doors and doesn't provide any info to be peer reviewed. But as I said he is just trying to bully everyone saying its over because I am smarter than you.

Well, billicheat answer these questions .... and please provide your scratch work sheet so I can see your work - ding ding ding class is in session!


The problem I had is IF THE KING REPORTING IS ACCURATE, none of billicheat physics makes sense.
Huh, 11/ 12 ...why not all?
Pats balls effected but not colts or K balls?
The weather does the change up till half time, but not at end of game (balls stay the same)?
Speaking of weather, shouldn't the change be more dramatic at the end of game when it was colder?
Also, even bill little science can't compensate or explain the (reported) uniformity and 2lbs.?
Ok bill, marsha loves that "gronk spike which really lightens that ball....at half it was 17-7 and I think he spiked 1 or 2 of those 12 balls! How did rest lighten by the same amount?
Then, there is the statistics linked here yesterday http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-prevention-of-fumbles-is-nearly-impossible

Lol like scientific peer review? I don't think Bill will be submitting scientific papers anytime soon.

11 of 12 I actually don't think hurts his point because you could just as easily argue if a human did it, why only 11 of 12?
The problem in his explanation is the question of why not the colts balls too? The problem for us is we don't know if and how much the colts game balls deflated and where they where at to start the game. All they said on the colts balls is that they where still legal when tested at halftime. I wanna know where all the balls tested before the game and at halftime. Are the weights recorded or do the refs just do it to make sure the balls are regulation and forget about it? Also I cant find a clear answer as to where all the pats balls exactly 2 psi light or is that an average, where some more or less deflated?

[SanAntonioSteelerFan]

Someone should start a media campaign, twitter, facebook, etc., with everyone saying: "Hey Goodell - what would you do IF you decided this was cheating?"

Get the discussion going that the " ** " should be official in the NFL record books, not just on forums like these.

[Mr.wizard]

Someone should start a media campaign, twitter, facebook, etc., with everyone saying: "Hey Goodell - what would you do IF you decided this was cheating?"

Get the discussion going that the " ** " should be official in the NFL record books, not just on forums like these.

Well there is already a rule in the nfl rule book with a designated penalty for this type of offense, so I don't really think its a big dilemma for goodell.

[Slapstick]

Lol like scientific peer review? I don't think Bill will be submitting scientific papers anytime soon.

11 of 12 I actually don't think hurts his point because you could just as easily argue if a human did it, why only 11 of 12?
The problem in his explanation is the question of why not the colts balls too? The problem for us is we don't know if and how much the colts game balls deflated and where they where at to start the game. All they said on the colts balls is that they where still legal when tested at halftime. I wanna know where all the balls tested before the game and at halftime. Are the weights recorded or do the refs just do it to make sure the balls are regulation and forget about it? Also I cant find a clear answer as to where all the pats balls exactly 2 psi light or is that an average, where some more or less deflated?

Jesus Howard Christ...

Splitting hairs will not make the footballs magically inflated...nor will it make you look smarter...

The facts:

All footballs for both teams were inflated as per regulation 2 hours and 15 prior to the game.

At halftime, 11 of the 12 Patriot footballs in question were found to be underinflated while the Colts' footballs, at the same game and under the same conditions, were still properly inflated at halftime.

Every credible source says that this is impossible to occur without human tampering.

Every credible source (not counting Joe Theisman's "charity event" as a credible source) agrees that this is a tremendous advantage to a team.

While you would ideally like to have irrefutable proof of wrongdoing, the fact is that Goodell doesn't need it...a preponderance of circumstantial evidence and a history of cheating should be more than enough for Goodell to levy a harsh penalty against the Patriots....whether or not he has the cajones to do so remains to be seen.

If you want to ignore science and the testimony of credible sources, that is your prerogative. But nothing you've said or submitted as "evidence" for your beloved Pats** has refuted any of those things...

[Sugar]

Well there is already a rule in the nfl rule book with a designated penalty for this type of offense, so I don't really think its a big dilemma for goodell.

I guess this goes to my opinion on this as well. We don't yet know the who or how of this, but we do know that it happened on the Patriot's watch so they are liable as a franchise. IMO, not much else needs to happen than to assess the fine and move on.

[Mr.wizard]

Jesus Howard Christ...

Splitting hairs will not make the footballs magically inflated...nor will it make you look smarter...

The facts:

All footballs for both teams were inflated as per regulation 2 hours and 15 prior to the game.

At halftime, 11 of the 12 Patriot footballs in question were found to be underinflated while the Colts' footballs, at the same game and under the same conditions, were still properly inflated at halftime.

Every credible source says that this is impossible to occur without human tampering.

Every credible source (not counting Joe Theisman's "charity event" as a credible source) agrees that this is a tremendous advantage to a team.

While you would ideally like to have irrefutable proof of wrongdoing, the fact is that Goodell doesn't need it...a preponderance of circumstantial evidence and a history of cheating should be more than enough for Goodell to levy a harsh penalty against the Patriots....whether or not he has the cajones to do so remains to be seen.

If you want to ignore science and the testimony of credible sources, that is your prerogative. But nothing you've said or submitted as "evidence" for your beloved Pats** has refuted any of those things...

BULL ****!! not every credible source says that! That is a flat out lie, and theismans charity event was not testing if the balls would deflate he was saying he couldn't feel a difference in the ball. I haven't submitted any evidence nor do I love the pats, those questions I just posed are perfectly legitimate its not splitting hairs, you clearly have not paid attention to what I have been writing or my overall point. You could at least do people the common courtesy of addressing their point rather than using a strawman argument.

Never once did I say the balls weren't tampered with or that no rules where broken, the fact is I don't know what happen and neither do you! So stop acting like every credible source in the world says foul play was involved because they don't.

[SteelBuckeye]

Here's what we are forgetting. The refs switched the balls that the Pats** were using in the second half. They used the 12 back up balls that each home team has to supply. Those footballs did not lose any pressure during the second half. So, somehow this only affected 11 of the 12 footballs originally supplied by the Patriots and not the Colts or the back up footballs (which of course the Pats** did not think would be used).

Someone please supply me an "expert" opinion as to how the weather would affect one set of footballs supplied by the Pats** and not the other.

[Mr.wizard]

Here's what we are forgetting. The refs switched the balls that the Pats** were using in the second half. They used the 12 back up balls that each home team has to supply. Those footballs did not lose any pressure during the second half. So, somehow this only affected 11 of the 12 footballs originally supplied by the Patriots and not the Colts or the back up footballs (which of course the Pats** did not think would be used).

Someone please supply me an "expert" opinion as to how the weather would affect one set of footballs supplied by the Pats** and not the other.

We don't really know if the halftime balls didn't lose pressure or the colts balls for that matter, footballs are permeable there will be some pressure loss I think that's unavoidable. I think the question is does the preparation leading up to the game effect the permeability of the ball, because if it does then its not crazy to think that one set of balls prepared in a particular manner cold lose more pressure than a set prepared in a different matter. Not saying the Pats are telling the truth but they said they tested it out and where able to pretty much recreate the pressure loss using their typical ball preparation.

[Slapstick]

We don't really know if the halftime balls didn't lose pressure or the colts balls for that matter, footballs are permeable there will be some pressure loss I think that's unavoidable. I think the question is does the preparation leading up to the game effect the permeability of the ball, because if it does then its not crazy to think that one set of balls prepared in a particular manner cold lose more pressure than a set prepared in a different matter. Not saying the Pats are telling the truth but they said they tested it out and where able to pretty much recreate the pressure loss using their typical ball preparation.

Exactly! Their typical ball preparation involves not inflating the footballs properly!!

When you have Bill Nye (The Science Guy) saying that you are full of it, then you are most definitely full of it...

Note I said "credible" sources...Bill Belichick does not count as a credible source...

[SteelBuckeye]

We know for a fact that the half-time balls didn't lose pressure because the NFL told us they didn't. Unless the NFL is lying to make the Pats** look bad before the Super Bowl. What we don't know is if that second set of balls that was supplied by the Pats** at the same time as the original were "prepared" in the same way as the first set. I'll give you that. In any event, if the Pats** did things that caused their balls to lose pressure at such an alarming rate, they are responsible for their actions because presumably they've prepared those balls the same way for a long time and they knew or should have known what the outcome was/would be.

I'm of the opinion that nothing will come out of this. There will (maybe) be a small fine and the league will just ignore it after that. But, I do believe that the Pats** intentionally cheated.

Occam's Razor - The simplest explanation for an occurrence is usually correct.

[Mr.wizard]

Exactly! Their typical ball preparation involves not inflating the footballs properly!!

When you have Bill Nye (The Science Guy) saying that you are full of it, then you are most definitely full of it...

Note I said "credible" sources...Bill Belichick does not count as a credible source...

Actually they don't inflate the balls, the officials inflate the balls. As far as Nye he only says rubbing the football will not change air pressure and I agree just rubbing a ball will not, but scrubbing and rubbing it to the point of wearing out the surface to break in the ball will. Nye also says the only way to change the pressure is with a needle and pump and we know for a fact that's not true. Also its not directly forcing the ball to lose pressure, its changing the permeability of the ball so it loses more pressure over time. Oh and Im still waiting for you to tell me the fallacy im using.

[Mr.wizard]

We know for a fact that the half-time balls didn't lose pressure because the NFL told us they didn't. Unless the NFL is lying to make the Pats** look bad before the Super Bowl. What we don't know is if that second set of balls that was supplied by the Pats** at the same time as the original were "prepared" in the same way as the first set. I'll give you that. In any event, if the Pats** did things that caused their balls to lose pressure at such an alarming rate, they are responsible for their actions because presumably they've prepared those balls the same way for a long time and they knew or should have known what the outcome was/would be.

I'm of the opinion that nothing will come out of this. There will (maybe) be a small fine and the league will just ignore it after that. But, I do believe that the Pats** intentionally cheated.

Occam's Razor - The simplest explanation for an occurrence is usually correct.

that's not what the nfl said though all the said was the colts balls where still legal when checked they didn't say the balls lost no pressure.

[SteelBuckeye]

Actually they don't inflate the balls, the officials inflate the balls. As far as Nye he only says rubbing the football will not change air pressure and I agree just rubbing a ball will not, but scrubbing and rubbing it to the point of wearing out the surface to break in the ball will. Nye also says the only way to change the pressure is with a needle and pump and we know for a fact that's not true.

Wrong. The teams inflate the balls and supply them to the refs. If, at the time of the inspection, the balls are found to be underinflated, the refs inflate them to within legal limits. This procedure has been reported since the story broke.

[SteelBuckeye]

that's not what the nfl said though all the said was the colts balls where still legal when checked they didn't say the balls lost no pressure.

Well I guess you should tell Peter King he has it all wrong and you have it right.

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

SMH

[Mr.wizard]

Well I guess you should tell Peter King he has it all wrong and you have it right.

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/23/deflategate-patriots-super-bowl-xlix/

SMH

Again it doesn't say they didn't lose any pressure it says when tested" they were at the prescribed levels" We nothing about where they were before the game or at halftime just they were at legal pressure levels. You are not going to take 12 different balls put them through a half of nfl football in cold temps and experience no pressure loss at all.

[SteelBuckeye]

Rose colored glasses. Look, we all know the NFL isn't going to punish the Pats**. You believe they didn't cheat. I believe they did. Nothing's going to change your opinion and nothing's going to change mine. It is what it is. Keep parsing words, etc. with these other guys. I'm not wasting my time anymore.

[Slapstick]

Actually they don't inflate the balls, the officials inflate the balls. As far as Nye he only says rubbing the football will not change air pressure and I agree just rubbing a ball will not, but scrubbing and rubbing it to the point of wearing out the surface to break in the ball will. Nye also says the only way to change the pressure is with a needle and pump and we know for a fact that's not true. Also its not directly forcing the ball to lose pressure, its changing the permeability of the ball so it loses more pressure over time. Oh and Im still waiting for you to tell me the fallacy im using.

You used a formal fallacy: If one party (Rodgers) said that he likes fully inflated footballs, therefore deflated footballs are no advantage. Poor logic.

[Mr.wizard]

Rose colored glasses. Look, we all know the NFL isn't going to punish the Pats**. You believe they didn't cheat. I believe they did. Nothing's going to change your opinion and nothing's going to change mine. It is what it is. Keep parsing words, etc. with these other guys. I'm not wasting my time anymore.

NO NO NO NO I never said I believe they didn't cheat, that is not my opinion and the only two opinions are not either you think they cheated or you don't. I have said numerous times that I don't know what happened that is not the same as presuming guilt or innocence.

[Mr.wizard]

You used a formal fallacy: If one party (Rodgers) said that he likes fully inflated footballs, therefore deflated footballs are no advantage. Poor logic.

This is what I said actually,

"Why would Rodgers like the ball at maximum inflation if there is such a huge advantage at 11.5 or 10.5? Its nothing more than a preference the ball will not do anything different with that little difference in pressure. A qb might like the grip he gets at 12.8 psi and another might like it at 13.3psi how do you determine the advantage? Its not something that is going to drastically change a game as ball psi changes throughout the game. If it was a real advantage then in really cold weather games where we know the balls lose psi we should see significantly less fumbling and much better passing, but instead we get the opposite. "

Again your the one engaged in Strawman fallacy, shame on you.

[Slapstick]

This is what I said actually,

"Why would Rodgers like the ball at maximum inflation if there is such a huge advantage at 11.5 or 10.5? Its nothing more than a preference the ball will not do anything different with that little difference in pressure. A qb might like the grip he gets at 12.8 psi and another might like it at 13.3psi how do you determine the advantage? Its not something that is going to drastically change a game as ball psi changes throughout the game. If it was a real advantage then in really cold weather games where we know the balls lose psi we should see significantly less fumbling and much better passing, but instead we get the opposite. "

Again your the one engaged in Strawman fallacy, shame on you.

Incorrect:


...because if one guy gets a better grip within the legal limit and one guy does not there is no advantage because they are both getting the preferred grip.

Now, you are just straight up lying. Which fallacy is that?

[SS Laser]

This is what I said actually,

"Why would Rodgers like the ball at maximum inflation if there is such a huge advantage at 11.5 or 10.5? Its nothing more than a preference the ball will not do anything different with that little difference in pressure. A qb might like the grip he gets at 12.8 psi and another might like it at 13.3psi how do you determine the advantage? Its not something that is going to drastically change a game as ball psi changes throughout the game. If it was a real advantage then in really cold weather games where we know the balls lose psi we should see significantly less fumbling and much better passing, but instead we get the opposite. "

Again your the one engaged in Strawman fallacy, shame on you. Well IMO the pressure in the football for QB's matter if he has big or small hands. Also the throwing motion/ mechanics come into play there also. Make Rogers point. The weather like rain or very cold temps will still have a impact on the material of the football. IMO cold temps making even underinflated footballs harder. But it is all moot. There was at least a effort to cheat here. It was not cold enough to effect psi by 2 from room temp to outside 50 degree temp IMO and proven at this point by the colts footballs IMO. Cheaters cheat and that does not change IMO. This cheat was done not for the cold but the rain IMO. Brady's girly hands needed some extra help. :)

[Mr.wizard]

Incorrect:



Now, you are just straight up lying. Which fallacy is that?

I didn't lie I put up the post before that to show the context that explains that it is a preference not and advantage, Brady does not get an advantage by using his preferred grip over Rodgers using his preferred grip, Rodgers does not play at a disadvantage because he likes a little more air pressure.

So no its not poor logic or a logical fallacy at all, you have two guys with two different preferences that each feel like maximizes their play.

[Mr.wizard]

Well IMO the pressure in the football for QB's matter if he has big or small hands. Also the throwing motion/ mechanics come into play there also. Make Rogers point. The weather like rain or very cold temps will still have a impact on the material of the football. IMO cold temps making even underinflated footballs harder. But it is all moot. There was at least a effort to cheat here. It was not cold enough to effect psi by 2 from room temp to outside 50 degree temp IMO and proven at this point by the colts footballs IMO. Cheaters cheat and that does not change IMO. This cheat was done not for the cold but the rain IMO. Brady's girly hands needed some extra help. :)

Well Brady has huge hands but what your saying is pretty much what I have been saying that is a preference using a slightly deflated ball is not an automatic advantage for anyone who picks it up.

[Slapstick]

I didn't lie I put up the post before that to show the context that explains that it is a preference not and advantage, Brady does not get an advantage by using his preferred grip over Rodgers using his preferred grip, Rodgers does not play at a disadvantage because he likes a little more air pressure.

So no its not poor logic or a logical fallacy at all, you have two guys with two different preferences that each feel like maximizes their play.

Except one player's preference falls within the rules and the other's does not.

[Slapstick]

Well Brady has huge hands but what your saying is pretty much what I have been saying that is a preference using a slightly deflated ball is not an automatic advantage for anyone who picks it up.

I agree. It is clearly calculated to gain the advantage and that is probably how Brady arrived at the 10.5 psi number.

[fordfixer]

Andrew Luck with the zinger:


https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/BCAF2DAA951169938239915020288_23c3c5b10df.5.1.2208 746491084025080.mp4?versionId=l8Pv8PjaRDs2FdKWjrmR Y.11dpx84hVu

This link is broke (or under inflated) either way it don't work what did he say?

[fordfixer]

David Newton | ESPN.com
Ex-GM on Pats: Culture of cheating
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/12216634/former-carolina-panthers-gm-marty-hurney-angry-spygate-amid-new-england-patriots-controversy

Updated: January 23, 2015, 12:12 PM
CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- The "Deflategate'' controversy in New England resurrected questions former Carolina Panthers general manager Marty Hurney had about the Patriots after losing Super Bowl XXXVIII.

Hurney, now the host of a weekday radio talk show on Charlotte's ESPN 730 AM and an ESPN NFL Insider, shared those questions on Thursday regarding Carolina's 32-29 loss to the Patriots on Feb. 1, 2004.

"There isn't a day that goes by since [then] that I haven't questioned ... that there were some things done that might have been beyond the rules that may have given them a three-point advantage,'' Hurney said during his radio show


"And I can't prove anything, and that's why I'm very angry. And the anger has come back over the last couple of days that commissioner Roger Goodell decided to shred all of the evidence after 'Spygate,' because I think there were a lot of things in there that would bring closure to a lot of people.''

The NFL is investigating why 11 of 12 football used by the Patriots in Sunday's 45-7 win over Indianapolis in the AFC Championship Game were underinflated significantly below the league requirements.

"To me this isn't about 'Deflategate', this isn't about anything having to do about any particular game last week,'' Hurney said. "And it certainly isn't fodder to get by the first week before the Super Bowl.

"This is about a culture. Is there a culture of cheating at probably what most people look at as the best franchise in the National Football League?''

It was revealed in 2007 that the New England Patriots were caught illegally taping sideline defensive signals from New York Jets coaches during the team's opening week game. The "Spygate" controversy led to accusations that such activity has been going on since 2000.

"There are people who swear to me that the Patriots taped our practice down in Houston during Super Bowl week," Hurney said. "I can't prove it. I don't know. And I hate talking like this because I feel like a bad loser, but it just gnaws at you and this latest incident brings it back up.

"You go to 'Spygate' after our Super Bowl and things came out about a rumor about a video guy, and he had tapes and he goes to Hawaii and kind of disappears. ... These are all rumors and I can't substantiate any of this. But it gnaws at you."

Hurney made it clear the Panthers weren't completely innocent of violating rules during their Super Bowl year. He brought up a report that came out after the season which said several Carolina players bought steroids from a South Carolina physician.

Among those cited in the report were three of the five starting offensive linemen.

"That was wrong," Hurney said. "The organization didn't know anything about it, and we took steps and we addressed that. We weren't going to put up with that. [Team owner] Jerry Richardson wasn't going to put up with that.

"To me, this isn't about deflating balls; it's about a continuing culture of alleged cheating, and to me, everybody's talking about [coach] Bill Belichick and Tom Brady. When is Robert Kraft going to come up and explain why, if they are found guilty of this, why do these things keep happening in this organization?"

Hurney said the current allegations against New England aggravate him because "it really pulls up some pretty big scabs.'' He admittedly kept track of New England's playoff record after "Spygate."

"They were 6-6 in the playoffs," he said. "Now they're getting to the Super Bowl and you're saying this is all behind them and this comes up. This isn't about deflating balls; this is about is there a culture of cheating that they'll do anything to get an edge.

"This is a bigger issue, and I think most people are missing the issue. It's an issue of if there is a culture of cheating at the organization that most people look at as the gold standard in this league. Is there a culture of cheating and breaking the rules?''

Hall of Famer Troy Aikman joined the fray in addressing Deflategate. In his weekly interview on SportsRadio 1310 AM and 96.7 FM in Dallas, Aikman said "it's obvious that Tom Brady had something to do with this."

"I know going back to when I played, they've loosened up the rules in terms of what each team is able to do with the footballs coming into the game. Used to, the home team provided all the balls. And now, each team brings their footballs the way they like them and break 'em in," Aikman said. "Used to you couldn't break them in. So for the balls to be deflated, that doesn't happen unless the quarterback wants that to happen, I can assure you of that. Now the question becomes did Bill Belichick know about it."

Hurney wasn't surprised that Belichick denied any knowledge of wrongdoing.

"What did you expect him to say?" he said. "I don't expect the league to come out and say anything before the Super Bowl. I hope they do, but I still go back to why were all the documents shredded after that investigation if there weren't highly damaging facts about what the Patriots did.

"... You go to people and teams, people that have played them and feel like I do that they might have had an unfair advantage. You're going to feel that way. But winning that Super Bowl, when you work in the National Football League, that completes your career and that's all you work for. And when there's a question about it, that's why I wanted to see the evidence, and that's why I'm so upset about the evidence being shredded.''

Hurney said the history of the Patriots under Belichick makes him wary of what the coach says.

"I know I don't trust anything that Bill Belichick says because of all the rumors that are out there,'' he said. "That's why I want to see the report. I want to see what they did or what they didn't do.

"I can't prove any of this. But where there's smoke, a lot of times there's fire.''

[Mr.wizard]

Except one player's preference falls within the rules and the other's does not.

I agree one falls outside the rules, never argued against that. The point is it doesn't give Brady an advantage over Rodgers. The only way you could make a case for it being an advantage is if you could compare brady throwing a ball at 12.5 and brady at 10.5 and showing a drastic difference. We saw that very case in the colts game with first and second half balls and I saw no drop off by the switch.

[Slapstick]

Then WTF are you arguing? If you agree that they cheated, then what is the problem?

The deflation also affects how well RBs can hold onto the ball, as shown by the Patriots amazing statistical ability not to fumble.

[Sword]

That Patriots are just un-American at this point. Baghdad Bellicheck and Taliban Tom leading the way to the demise of America's greatest invention - NFL football.

You must be a uneducated kid...

[SteelBuckeye]

This link is broke (or under inflated) either way it don't work what did he say?

They asked him something along the lines of how he felt after losing the AFC Championship game. He replied "Obviously I felt a little deflated." Then he got a little smirk on his face and said "Oh shhh." LOL

[SteelBuckeye]

I agree one falls outside the rules, never argued against that. The point is it doesn't give Brady an advantage over Rodgers. The only way you could make a case for it being an advantage is if you could compare brady throwing a ball at 12.5 and brady at 10.5 and showing a drastic difference. We saw that very case in the colts game with first and second half balls and I saw no drop off by the switch.

It gives Brady and advantage over a Brady who is throwing the ball at a properly inflated level. It's like a person taking a PED. The advantage is not so much an advantage against your opponent as it is an "enhancement" of your abilities that provides a boost in performance over what you "personally" would be able to accomplish if you operated within the rules. Therefore, it's cheating.