Penalties

[BradshawsHairdresser]

Ravens: 2 for 14 yards
Steelers: 8 for 114 yards

Not the main factor, but a significant one.

[SidSmythe]

The 3 stats that make the difference

Field position: we owned it at the start of the game but only came away with 3.
Turnovers: we had 1 with the momentum but then gave 2 away
AND Penalties!!! We lost all 3

[Slapstick]

Ravens: 2 for 14 yards
Steelers: 8 for 114 yards

Not the main factor, but a significant one.

More than 80 yards of Steeler penalties were on drives where the Ravens scored. Significant is a conservative word.

[papillon]

There is also the ridiculous incidental foot tangling rule evidently in the NFL. As long as you run next a WR you can accidentally trip him and push him to the ground and its okay. And, of course Beachum can't get his arm on the shoulder of a rusher for nanosecond or its a hold on the edge, but JH is allowed to be hooked on his bend and push around the corner on a regular basis. Officiating an NFL game is nearly impossible with all of the subjective BS rules.

Even if the calls are the correct ones the rules are idiotic, if a receiver can't go get the ball because a defender trips him accidentally ot not how is that not a penalty? Inadvertent fouls happen all the time that doesn't mean it isn't a penalty, except in the NFL, similar to the stupid tuck rule.

The Steelers didn't lose because of the penalties or the lack of against the Ravens, but man there were some big ones that had to deflate an offense that was struggling.

Pappy

[feltdizz]

Archer TD should have stood... horrible holding call.

[Slapstick]

It has a tremendous effect.

Harrison has his arm grabbed and he is turned around 180 degrees. No call, Flacco TD.

Beachum does the same thing. Flag, Ben TD to Dri Archer negated.

AB is called for a facemask. Flag.

When his facemask is grabbed? No flag.

When a game is called as one sided as this one, it is huge advantage for the beneficiary.

[buccoray61]

The 3 stats that make the difference

Field position: we owned it at the start of the game but only came away with 3.
Turnovers: we had 1 with the momentum but then gave 2 away
AND Penalties!!! We lost all 3
You can probably also add battle at the line of scrimmage,which was also lost.

[Slapstick]

Also, I will go on the record now:

The Ravens will travel to Foxboro and play in a similar manner to last night. There, against the Pats* they will be flagged far more than twice for the same way of playing.

[papillon]

Also, I will go on the record now:

The Ravens will travel to Foxboro and play in a similar manner to last night. There, against the Pats* they will be flagged far more than twice for the same way of playing.

The "Brady Effect" :p

Pappy

[Jooser]

I was pretty upset about the refs last night. I won't make excuses and say that's the only reason the Steelers lost, but there was some absolute BS going with the calls. The PI on Blake, he got his head around at the last second and the ball practically hit him in the facemask. But, you run down the field and push our WR down, foot contact or not, there was plenty of upper body contact too, and no flag..... Those were significant discrepencies. There were some facemask penalties ignored last night too. This group of refs seemed to have an agenda.

[Slapstick]

If the Ravens had 114 yards in penalties and the Steelers 14, would the Ravens still have won?

[Shoe]

I don't complain about ref calls save for egregious ones like Pete Morelli ten years ago, but it really goes to show how this is a game of inches (or calls). If AB doesn't jump to catch that ball in the endzone where he got one foot in, we score a TD. Probably a different ball-game. If they correctly throw the flag on the long Bryant pass, it changes the WHOLE game. It's why this is such a popular spectator sport I guess.

[tiproast]

The "Brady Effect" :p

Pappy

Some stats for you.

Net penalty differential this year (yards penalized - yards opponents penalized)

Seattle: -399 (#1)
New England: -321 (#2)
Pittsburgh: -99 (#10)
Baltimore: +237 (#29)

Not seeing a "Brady Effect" here.

But I do see a "Flacco Fallout". :D

[NorthCoast]

Sorry, not going the penalty route for this loss. Give Flacco credit, he knows the rules favor the WR in downfield passing and he takes chances for a big play. Given the sorry state of the Steelers secondary it was a low risk for Flacco.

BTW, McCain's dropped INT could have made Flacco think twice about the long passing but alas the Steelers couldn't make him pay.

[Slapstick]

Some stats for you.

Net penalty differential this year (yards penalized - yards opponents penalized)

Seattle: -399 (#1)
New England: -321 (#2)
Pittsburgh: -99 (#10)
Baltimore: +237 (#29)

Not seeing a "Brady Effect" here.

But I do see a "Flacco Fallout". :D


No, you aren't seeing the Brady Effect here. But, you will see it in Foxboro, Mass. next week. Indubitably.

If I'm wrong, I'll happily come back, admit it and apologize.

But, I'm positive I won't have to.

[Slapstick]

Sorry, not going the penalty route for this loss. Give Flacco credit, he knows the rules favor the WR in downfield passing and he takes chances for a big play. Given the sorry state of the Steelers secondary it was a low risk for Flacco.

BTW, McCain's dropped INT could have made Flacco think twice about the long passing but alas the Steelers couldn't make him pay.

So, if the Ravens had been penalized for 114 and the Steelers 14, that would not have affected the outcome?

[tiproast]

No, you aren't seeing the Brady Effect here. But, you will see it in Foxboro, Mass. next week. Indubitably.

If I'm wrong, I'll happily come back, admit it and apologize.

But, I'm positive I won't have to.
I hope you're right.

Would love to get through a game without Browner racking up multiple DPIs.

[NorthCoast]

So, if the Ravens had been penalized for 114 and the Steelers 14, that would not have affected the outcome?

They weren't, so it is moot. Did Brown need to grab a guy's facemask? Did Mitchell need to nail a guy out of bounds? Did Worilds need to take a swing at the OL? Did S Thomas need to commit the roughing? Fact is there were too many stupid, stupid penalties by the Steelers last night and they weren't "marginal" calls. They have no one to blame but themselves.

[NorthCoast]

They weren't, so it is moot. Did Brown need to grab a guy's facemask? Did Mitchell need to nail a guy out of bounds? Did Worilds need to take a swing at the OL? Did S Thomas need to commit the roughing? Fact is there were too many stupid, stupid penalties by the Steelers last night and they weren't "marginal" calls. They have no one to blame but themselves.

And BTW, if you are counting, that is 1/2 the penalty yards against them last night. ....

[RobinCole]

Flacco " knows the rules favor the WR in downfield passing". Not last night when Bryant got run over by a defender who was beaten by a step or so.

[Slapstick]

They weren't, so it is moot. Did Brown need to grab a guy's facemask? Did Mitchell need to nail a guy out of bounds? Did Worilds need to take a swing at the OL? Did S Thomas need to commit the roughing? Fact is there were too many stupid, stupid penalties by the Steelers last night and they weren't "marginal" calls. They have no one to blame but themselves.

1) You did not answer the question.

2) The Ravens committed a lot of penalties that, unfortunately for the Steelers and their fans, were overlooked.

[NorthCoast]

1) You did not answer the question.

2) The Ravens committed a lot of penalties that, unfortunately for the Steelers and their fans, were overlooked.

Steelers made it easy, committing half the penalties as non-judgment calls. No excuse for it other than undisciplined play. I challenge you to point out the calls not made that were not "judgment" in nature.

[Eddie Spaghetti]

blaming the zebras for that loss is utterly absurd

the ravens out coached and outhit the steelers all night long. Instead of crying about penalties, maybe give the other team some credit once in awhile. The steelers should own it and use it to get better

I've never seen anyone cry more about the refs than slappy

[BradshawsHairdresser]

If the Ravens had 114 yards in penalties and the Steelers 14, would the Ravens still have won?

Yeah, I think they would have. It would have been closer, but they still would have won because they dominated the lines of scrimmage and they scored touchdowns while keeping the Steelers out of the end zone (and I know we had one TD wiped off by a ticky-tack penalty).

The penalties were part of the picture, but not the biggest part, IMO.

That said, it did seem like the Ravens were being favored by the refs (may have been unconciously). On that last fumble, I thought the ref was signaling first down for Baltimore before he could have had it sorted out. It was the right call, but man, it seemed like he was quick and eager to make it.

[feltdizz]

The call on Mitchell was terrible and I wasn't a fan of the holding call on the Archer TD. Everything else was ok, wasn't that mad about the no call on the Bryant trip.

[Slapstick]

Steelers made it easy, committing half the penalties as non-judgment calls. No excuse for it other than undisciplined play. I challenge you to point out the calls not made that were not "judgment" in nature.

My problem is not "judgment" calls per se...

My problem is when the Steelers are somehow the recipient of 90 more yards of "judgement" call penalties than the other team...

[7upnext]

Tomlin's teams have proven to be ill prepared, out of position, and undisciplined. I don't see him being replaced...what with the love affair the media has with him due to his one liners...as if that empty rhetoric helps win games..plus the Steelers won a division. Sadly, I think this was his best coaching season so I am not calling for his head either. But if the same ol same ol happens next season instead of the growth I hope for...he needs to go.

[7upnext]

absolutely. Grrrr

[7 UP]

Tomlin's teams have proven to be ill prepared, out of position, and undisciplined. I don't see him being replaced...what with the love affair the media has with him due to his one liners...as if that empty rhetoric helps win games..plus the Steelers won a division. Sadly, I think this was his best coaching season so I am not calling for his head either. But if the same ol same ol happens next season instead of the growth I hope for...he needs to go.

I dont totally disagree with this. Stay thirsty my friend.

[NorthCoast]

My problem is not "judgment" calls per se...

My problem is when the Steelers are somehow the recipient of 90 more yards of "judgement" call penalties than the other team...

Except they weren't. Steelers 114 yds in penalties. Of those the following were not "judgment":

PIT:
3 - unnecessary roughness: 45 yds
1 - facemask: 12 yds
1 - false start: 5 yds

That leaves 52 yds of 'judgment' calls. (and you can argue that 10 more yds on Bryant were hardly judgment).

[Slapstick]

Except they weren't. Steelers 114 yds in penalties. Of those the following were not "judgment":

PIT:
3 - unnecessary roughness: 45 yds
1 - facemask: 12 yds
1 - false start: 5 yds

That leaves 52 yds of 'judgment' calls. (and you can argue that 10 more yds on Bryant were hardly judgment).

I could argue about this all day. For example, why was the facemask committed by Brown a penalty while the facemask committed ON Brown not called? Judgment.

There are numerous examples of this judgment being in the Ravens' favor last night.

I'm sorry if you don't agree. That's fine. We don't need to.

[NorthCoast]

I could argue about this all day. For example, why was the facemask committed by Brown a penalty while the facemask committed ON Brown not called? Judgment.

There are numerous examples of this judgment being in the Ravens' favor last night.

I'm sorry if you don't agree. That's fine. We don't need to.

OK. thank you for detailing those "numerous examples".

[Slapstick]

1)When Yanda grabs Harrison's arm and spins him around 180 degrees so Kelechi pushes him in the chest: No call, Flacco throws a TD....

When Beachum does the same thing to Suggs: Flag, Dri Archer TD called back.

2) Mitchell helmet-to-helmet contact, not leading with head, flag, 15 yards.

Mosley helmet-to-helmet contact, not leading with head, no flag.

3) Antwon Blake, runs into receiver, turns his head around at the last second, flag, PI

LaDarius Webb, runs into Bryant, turns his head around at the last second, no flag.


Please, I could give more example, but I'd rather not rewatch that game just yet....

You're welcome.

[papillon]

I do know this though, if I'm a DB in the NFL I'm beginning to work on perfecting the inadvertent leg entanglement defense. Twice in the Dallas/Detroit game, once in the Bengal/Colts game and once in the Steelers/Ravens game inadvertent tangling of the legs, the receiver has no chance to catch the pass, but no penalty. I don't quite understand how that still isn't pass interference because it was inadvertent.

Pappy

[NorthCoast]

I do know this though, if I'm a DB in the NFL I'm beginning to work on perfecting the inadvertent leg entanglement defense. Twice in the Dallas/Detroit game, once in the Bengal/Colts game and once in the Steelers/Ravens game inadvertent tangling of the legs, the receiver has no chance to catch the pass, but no penalty. I don't quite understand how that still isn't pass interference because it was inadvertent.

Pappy

Don't you know the Steelers DBs never get those calls because they are never that close to the WRs?

[Slapstick]

Blake was.

[SteelerMaine83]

Watching all the Wild Card games this weekend was like watching the first half-of the season all over again--so many ticky-tacky flags. It seems that the refs and teams had figured things out by the second half of the season, so flags became less prevalent and everyone returned to football. Thyen, for the playoffs, the NFL, in its unending brilliance, pairs refs that haven't worked together all season, so the reffing ends up being horrible, as a whole. I'm not saying that the Steelers lost because of the refs--they did themselves in, but Detroit may lost because of the refs. Bad time to change up those reffing teams, Goodell.

[feltdizz]

That Dallas pass interference that was then wasn't is a prime example of vegas/special interest getting in the way...

[Ghost]

To this day I can't stand Seahawks fans for all their belly aching and crying like toddlers who lost their candy after the Suber Bowl. Just looked and sounded like a giant bunch of losers.

NO ONE outside Steelers fans are talking about the officiating or thinking it had anything to do with the Steelers getting whipped. Because it didn't. The Steelers got outplayed on both sides of the ball, were missing their team MVP, couldn't score 3 times in the first half from up close, and struggled to stop third and a mile conversions. That's why they lost. Time to move on!

[tiproast]

No, you aren't seeing the Brady Effect here. But, you will see it in Foxboro, Mass. next week. Indubitably.

If I'm wrong, I'll happily come back, admit it and apologize.

But, I'm positive I won't have to.
Would you say that officials had an effect on the game yesterday? In particular, did they cause the Patriots to win because they made questionable calls that helped the Pats?

[Slapstick]

Would you say that officials had an effect on the game yesterday? In particular, did they cause the Patriots to win because they made questionable calls that helped the Pats?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/john-harbaugh-gets-penalty-for-being-on-the-field--unlike-dez-bryant-001655082.html

[tiproast]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/john-harbaugh-gets-penalty-for-being-on-the-field--unlike-dez-bryant-001655082.html
Yes, I know, the Pats are cheating cheaters who cheat.

But you do realize that Harbaugh went onto to the field specifically to get a flag thrown?

[Slapstick]

Yes, I know, the Pats are cheating cheaters who cheat.

But you do realize that Harbaugh went onto to the field specifically to get a flag thrown?

Yep.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/john-harbaugh-gets-penalty-for-being-on-the-field--unlike-dez-bryant-001655082.html

[Slapstick]

Look, Tiproast, you seem like a good dude. It's probably very frustrating to have your team constantly accused of this stuff, not only by fans of other teams but Hall of Fame coaches as well...

But, at the end of the day, the only person that you have to blame for the situation is Mr. William Stephen Belichick...

[tiproast]

Look, Tiproast, you seem like a good dude. It's probably very frustrating to have your team constantly accused of this stuff, not only by fans of other teams but Hall of Fame coaches as well...

But, at the end of the day, the only person that you have to blame for the situation is Mr. William Stephen Belichick...
The reason I bumped the thread up was to get your viewpoint on whether the officials were biasing their calls toward the Patriots.

If you think that the one call against Harbaugh that gave the Patriots a five yard gain is evidence of that, then that's your opinion.

My own opinion (not that you've asked for it) is that the calls were even, and that the players on the field decided the outcome.

[Slapstick]

The reason I bumped the thread up was to get your viewpoint on whether the officials were biasing their calls toward the Patriots.

If you think that the one call against Harbaugh that gave the Patriots a five yard gain is evidence of that, then that's your opinion.

My own opinion (not that you've asked for it) is that the calls were even, and that the players on the field decided the outcome.

I agree with you. I only wish the Steelers had been afforded the same opportunity. My original statement was this:


Also, I will go on the record now:

The Ravens will travel to Foxboro and play in a similar manner to last night. There, against the Pats* they will be flagged far more than twice for the same way of playing.

This is precisely what happened. Pap's "Brady Effect" comment was simply a joke...but, one that had a kernel of truth at the very center.

Even your own example does not refute this:


Some stats for you.

Net penalty differential this year (yards penalized - yards opponents penalized)

Seattle: -399 (#1)
New England: -321 (#2)
Pittsburgh: -99 (#10)
Baltimore: +237 (#29)

Not seeing a "Brady Effect" here.

But I do see a "Flacco Fallout". :D

To which I responded:


No, you aren't seeing the Brady Effect here. But, you will see it in Foxboro, Mass. next week. Indubitably.

If I'm wrong, I'll happily come back, admit it and apologize.

But, I'm positive I won't have to.

And I don't...

[papillon]

The reason I bumped the thread up was to get your viewpoint on whether the officials were biasing their calls toward the Patriots.

If you think that the one call against Harbaugh that gave the Patriots a five yard gain is evidence of that, then that's your opinion.

My own opinion (not that you've asked for it) is that the calls were even, and that the players on the field decided the outcome.

The best part about the game was that I didn't really notice the referees which is a good thing, it means they are doing what they are supposed to do and that's keep the playing field level for both teams. Well officiated in my opinion.

Of course, there's always this week for the "Brady effect" :D

Good luck to your guys this week Tip

Pappy

[DukieBoy]

Glad your Pats beat the Rats, Tip. Harbaugh is whining child. The Rats get away with all kinds of crap on the field. If anything, the officiating tipped the Rats way yesterday, IMO.

[WVSteelerfan]

The holding call should be abolished. It seems to me that is it used far too often to manipulate the game. It could be called on every play and justified with film if you want to pick the game apart. The holding penalty needs to be defined better and reviewable. Also, 10 yards is a ridiculous mark off for such an infraction.

Case in point, Ramon Foster, the LEFT guard, was called for holding on Geno Atkins' fat butt, on the 40+ yd run that Josh Harris had, off tackle, on the offenses RIGHT side. There is no way Atkins gets to the play held or not. He was actually playing head up on Foster, 3 gaps away, and the traffic would've gotten in his way trying to play down the line. Harris was through that hole and gone very quickly. If you wanna call what Foster did a hold, then you'd have to throw the flag every down. You can not tell me there was not a thought of negating that play when the flag was thrown. So, we lose a huge gain, and are moved back 10 yards. For what?

Archer's TD being negated, on the laughable holding penalty called on Beachum, was the deciding point in that game. Does anyone remember was succeeded that penalty? Sack, QB injury, and a pick in the endzone. We should've had 7 on the board and those plays after should have never happened.

[papillon]

Not only the inline holding calls, but the ridiculous holding calls on safeties and CBs that have absolutely no effect on a play. they're calling holding penalties on CBs outside the numbers on the left side of the field and the play was a designed roll to the right hash, it's giving offenses that already have every advantage known to man new sets of downs for no good reason. At the very least the holding call in the secondary shouldn't be an automatic 1st down unless the distance to go is 5 yards or less.

I absolutely hate the way the game is officiated and Dez Bryant had a catch and there's no way you can tell me he didn't catch that ball. The ground can't cause a fumble, he took three steps before reaching for the goal line, that reversal was absurd and affected the outcome of that game in a way that no reversal of a call should. Take the effing replay review out of the game completely, it's made the game worse, not better.

Pappy

[Eich]

The holding call should be abolished.

I agree. Put boxing-type gloves on the lineman so they can't grab shirts and make any other form of holding (not tripping) a legal way of protecting the QB and blocking.

[feltdizz]

holding is the best penalty in the world....


for Vegas.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Would you say that officials had an effect on the game yesterday? In particular, did they cause the Patriots to win because they made questionable calls that helped the Pats?

The refs decided to help Aaron Rodgers this weekend instead. ;)

[tiproast]

Slappy, Pappy, DukieBoy, RB: Thanks for the positive responses. This is a good football board.

[Slapstick]

I was right. You are a good dude. I still don't care for your team...;)

[NorthCoast]

........ that reversal was absurd and affected the outcome of that game in a way that no reversal of a call should. ......
Pappy

As did the non-call the week before in favor of Dallas. turn-about is fair play.

[RuthlessBurgher]

As did the non-call the week before in favor of Dallas. turn-about is fair play.

Jerry Jones mentioned this when asked about the Bryant reversal. I'm by no means a fan of the guy, but he handled himself in a most un-Harbaugh-like way in this particular instance, to his credit.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Slappy, Pappy, DukieBoy, RB: Thanks for the positive responses. This is a good football board.

We'll let you stay then. :D

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Jerry Jones mentioned this when asked about the Bryant reversal. I'm by no means a fan of the guy, but he handled himself in a most un-Harbaugh-like way in this particular instance, to his credit.

Not a fan of Jones the owner, or Jones the GM, but he always seems to handle himself well in interviews. He is certainly not a Harbaugh-like whiner.

[WVSteelerfan]

holding is the best penalty in the world....


for Vegas.

My thoughts exactly. The holding penalty has been misused more than a department of highways worker's shovel.

[papillon]

My thoughts exactly. The holding penalty has been misused more than a department of highways worker's shovel.

You've seen a a shovel actually being used by the highway dept? They must have hired a college kid for the summer to use the shovel. :D

Pappy