Vince Williams .....

[SidSmythe]

....is a pretty good football player.

When he's out there you know it.

[Slapstick]

Vince should beat out Spence.

[Oviedo]

Vince should beat out Spence.
Williams is worse in coverage which is why Spence gets the nod.

[Slapstick]

That may have been true at one time, but it may no longer be the case...

[DukieBoy]

Maybe he will more to LOLB when we don't sign Worilds after this season. He has played well.

[Shoe]

....is a pretty good football player.

When he's out there you know it.

I agree man.
For the past two years, I've had him pegged as just another warm body type. But I am happy when I see him on the field. I think he has the potential to be a Larry Foote-type. Who knows... maybe even more.

[NJ-STEELER]

makes the shazier pick even more questionable.

did the FO think he wasnt going to improve?

[Slapstick]

makes the shazier pick even more questionable.

did the FO think he wasnt going to improve?

Well, based upon other recent draft picks, why would they think he'd improve?

[WindyCitySteel]

Shazier didn't get a snap. They supposedly de-activated Archer so they could bring Shazier back.

I agree with NJ - why pick Shazier if you don't need him?

[SidSmythe]

I do believe the Steelers saw WILLIAMS as a 2 down LB.

His speed and pursuit are impressive AND I believe the SHAZIER pick motivated him ... however I think he might have been motivated anyway but this might have put him over the top. It's not a bad problem to have and I think SPENCE has improved steadily over the season (this is coming from a guy who yelled "get Spence out of there" a few times this year).

[feltdizz]

Did anyone on here honestly think Vince Williams was anything more than a backup after last season?

I seem to remember most people on here evaluating him as a serviceable back up but had little faith in him as a long term solution.

[Oviedo]

Did anyone on here honestly think Vince Williams was anything more than a backup after last season?

I seem to remember most people on here evaluating him as a serviceable back up but had little faith in him as a long term solution.

Solid back up. Nothing more. He is "Larry Foote light"

[phillyesq]

makes the shazier pick even more questionable.

did the FO think he wasnt going to improve?

I think the FO sees him as a limited player. He is a solid hitter in the running game and even a decent inside blitzer, but he doesn't have the speed / range for coverage.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Did anyone on here honestly think Vince Williams was anything more than a backup after last season?

I seem to remember most people on here evaluating him as a serviceable back up but had little faith in him as a long term solution.

Exactly felt. After last year was everybody willing to sit back on the hopes of this kind of improvement? He was a sixth round rook last season who was a serviceable fill in at times. There is a difference between hope and expectations. He has improved as much as we could have hoped, but I don't recall too many people talking as if they expected it.

[feltdizz]

Solid back up. Nothing more. He is "Larry Foote light"

Not sure if you realize it but that is a compliment...

Foote was a solid LB for us. I would love to have that type of player for a 6th rounder.

[Keyplay1]

What a coincidence.

I was just going to post that I would like to see him get a shot at LOLB. Shazier will be back and is good.

My reasoning for this was that even if he does absolutely nothing at the new position it would be an upgrade.[obviously, I am not a fan of Worilds]

On the Report Card Vid on nfl.com Elliot Harrison gave the Steelers D a C+. [ Not sure, but I think he is a Steeler fan.] Anyway he said that he wasn't telling anything Steeler fans don't already know, the D is a concern. But he was being generous with the C+ since, well, after all they did win the game and somehow only managed to give up 21 pts. He offered no corrective solutions however.

The ILB position is really crowded. VW plays with too much intensity to be watching.

[SidSmythe]

I really don't think it would be productive to take a player who has upside at ILB and then put him at a position where he will most likely fail.

Vince Williams has 2 more seasons under a friendly contract. Nothing guarantees that SHAZIER is going to see the field 16 games per year over that stretch.

For all I care WILLIAMS and SHAZIER can be our ILB tandem 3 years from now as TIMMONS ages or plays out his contract (or gets hurt). THIS Defense needs a real OLB to fill the void we have.

[raycafan]

Really liking the way Williams is playing, when he is in, he is around the ball. He has a real nack for finding the ball and then putting a good hit and wrap tackle. One third down really stands out for me, hit the check down receiver then put him down well short of a first. The kind of play the defense needs to get off the field.

[SidSmythe]

He's a tackling machine. Except for when Matt Ryan put a move on him today. HaHa.
I do think he thought Ryan was gonna slide and he didn't ... bet he wishes he could have a do over on that play.

[Mr.wizard]

Vince Williams is a good tackler but he is not a good coverage linebacker. He struggles in man and zone, that's why you saw the falcons exploiting a lot of short crossing routes. Williams has to play down hill and in our defense the inside linebackers have to have range, he just doesn't have it.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Labriola on Rodney, Hines, and Vince

Posted 7 hours ago

Bob Labriola Steelers.com

Some notes, quotes, and anecdotes as OTAs come to a close.

Ready or not, here it comes:

* The June 8 edition of TV Guide contained a list of the year’s top 50 television shows, according to data provided by Nielsen Media Research. The list spanned Sept. 22, 2014 to May 20, 2015, and it excluded repeats, sports pregame and postgame shows, and programs with two or fewer episodes. NFL football finished tied-for-No. 2, No. 7, and No. 18 on the top-50 list.

* NFL Sunday Night Football was tied with NCIS for second behind The Big Bang Theory. NFL Thursday Night Football was No. 7, and NFL Monday Night Football was No. 18. Once upon a time, the major networks were reluctant to try NFL football on a weeknight because the executives were certain it would be trounced in the ratings by traditional prime-time programming.

* Not anymore. Now, maybe it’s the other way around.

* Rodney Dangerfield invented it, but in terms of Steelers football Hines Ward was most famous for it. Dangerfield launched his comedic career into orbit once he began incorporating what became his trademark, the “no respect” joke. Ward massaged the concept a bit to come up with the “nobody thought I could make it,” and he wasn’t joking even a little bit.

* As Ward continued to mine the disrespect angle even after being voted Super Bowl MVP, its impact was lost on everybody but him, and that probably was the value of it all along. Motivation is a critical element of success in a professional sport – or in any worthwhile endeavor, in fact – and when Ward discovered something that did the motivating for him he carried it with him until the end of his career.

* Vince Williams is the guy in this current Steelers locker room with the most legitimate beef along the lines of “I don’t get no respect.”

* When veteran starting inside linebacker Larry Foote tore a biceps in the 2013 opener and was lost for the rest of that season, Williams, then a rookie sixth-round pick, emerged from a group of young players to start 11 games at the position. Four months after that season ended, the Steelers used their No. 1 pick on Ryan Shazier, and several weeks after that Shazier was installed in Williams’ position on the starting defense.

* Rather than pout or complain publicly about losing a starting spot to a guy who had yet to play a single NFL snap, Williams showed up at his second training camp with what football coaches often refer to as “the proper playing demeanor.” He was aggressive, ill-tempered, physical. He got into some on-field scraps. Stood out during the live-tackling drills. Played special teams passionately. Made himself impossible to cut.

* When the 2014 season evolved as one where Shazier missed seven games over a nine-week span with injuries, Williams and Sean Spence came to share the spot, with playing time divided based on whether the defense was aligned in its base 3-4 or in the nickel. Williams finished with 30 tackles and a fumble recovery on defense, plus another 15 tackles on special teams, which tied him for the team lead in that category with Terence Garvin.

* Today, Shazier is healthy and therefore back as a starting inside linebacker alongside Lawrence Timmons, but Williams is not the type to shrink from a challenge, and I’ve got to believe he’s using the “no respect” angle to keep himself on edge. Whatever works. And this seems to be working for him.

* Speaking of Shazier, if anyone was concerned that he might have a lingering sense of entitlement over being a first-round pick and instant starter, there has been none of that on display this offseason. In fact, Shazier told Chris Bradford of the Beaver County Times that “I definitely have something to prove to my teammates.” Such an attitude will serve him well.

* There is no offseason anymore in the NFL, at least not from the media side. The sport is covered 24/7/365 on multiple platforms, and the beast has to be fed. There are a lot of people whose jobs depend on a satisfied beast, but what can result is rampant speculation that creeps into misinformation.

* That’s a description of this item written by Field Yates, billed as an ESPN insider: “More bucks for Brown? Star wide receiver Antonio Brown will make just shy of $23 million over the next three years, a significant discount for the most consistent pass-catcher in the league. And although Brown denied reported interest in looking for a new deal, it is still a situation worth monitoring. Brown is a worthwhile re-investment, as he led the NFL in catches and yards in 2014 yet ranks 11th among wide receivers in base salary for 2015. Pittsburgh has traditionally avoided new deals for players prior to the final year of their contracts, but Brown might force them to make an exception.”

* So to summarize, Antonio Brown denied interest in withholding his services in the seeking of a new contract, and anyway, the Steelers don’t re-do contracts prior to the player entering the final year of the existing deal. Now you don’t have to invest in the cost of becoming an ESPN insider. No need to thank me.

* A few years after Jerome Bettis came to the Steelers in a 1996 draft day trade with the St. Louis Rams, Franco Harris offered the opinion that Bettis would end up being the best running back in franchise history. High praise indeed, and recently, Bettis said something similar about Le’Veon Bell.

* “I think he’s special,” Bettis said. “He’s a special player on the field, everything you see him do. He has the frame of a big back but the agility of a smaller running back, which makes him a very, very special player. He’s a big back but also able to catch the ball out of the backfield, be elusive, do so many things. Being a three-down running back, that, in and of itself, is a special treat to have. I think if he continues on his course, I think he can be one of the best that ever put on a uniform — not just a Steelers uniform, one of the best running backs ever.”

* History will be the ultimate judge of Bell’s career and whether Bettis’ forecast for him comes true, but what’s undeniable already is that Le’Veon Bell is different than any other running back in franchise history. His receiving ability is what makes him so. And by receiving ability, I’m not talking about a guy who can catch a ball that’s thrown to him. Bell has receiving ability like Marshall Faulk had receiving ability. Special receiving ability.

* Of the 23 quarterbacks in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, six are from Western Pennsylvania, and last weekend they were feted at an event called Gridiron Gold, which benefitted the Neighborhood Legal Services Association as well as the player’s selected charities. For the record, the six Western Pennsylvania quarterbacks in the Hall of Fame are George Blanda, John Unitas, Joe Namath, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, and Jim Kelly. Namath, Marino, Montana, and Kelly were present at the event. Unitas and Blanda, both deceased, were represented by family members.

* Steelers President Art Rooney II served as the honorary chairman of the event, and as such was required to make some remarks to the sellout crowd at the Wyndham Grand Hotel in Downtown Pittsburgh.

* “A night like this reminds me that I am glad we won a couple of Super Bowls,” said Art Rooney II. “If we didn't, we would've been remembered as the franchise that cut Johnny Unitas and didn't draft Dan Marino. Thank God we won a couple.”

* To make up for those moves, it’s probably best the Steelers have won three times more than a couple.

http://www.steelers.com/news/article-1/Labriola-on-Rodney-Hines-and-Vince/acc392f9-d101-4178-80c4-288dbfd0ea5b

[BURGH86STEEL]

makes the shazier pick even more questionable.

did the FO think he wasnt going to improve?

Because the organization felt Shazier had rare ability for a player at the ILB position.

[Oviedo]

Because the organization felt Shazier had rare ability for a player at the ILB position.

Williams + Spence < Shazier

Shazier brings so much more if he reaches his potential...IF just like like J Jones. They both have to show they are worth getting picked in Round #1. Just being average IMO is a fail for both of them. They have to be special.

I loved the Shazier pick and I hope my belief in it doesn't turn out to be a dud. I do think that the best thing to happen to Shazier may be Butler becoming DC and a more aggressive approach versus just "thumping" in the middle.

[BURGH86STEEL]

Williams + Spence < Shazier

Shazier brings so much more if he reaches his potential...IF just like like J Jones. They both have to show they are worth getting picked in Round #1. Just being average IMO is a fail for both of them. They have to be special.

I loved the Shazier pick and I hope my belief in it doesn't turn out to be a dud. I do think that the best thing to happen to Shazier may be Butler becoming DC and a more aggressive approach versus just "thumping" in the middle.

1st round picks don't need to be considered special to be a successful pick. Very few players drafted every year are special players. Players like Ben and Troy can be considered special. Those types of players don't come around often.

Who knows? Williams might be a solid pro longer than Shahzier for different reasons.

I think people should consider how they view the draft. For instance, a first round draft pick in 2014 might not be considered a first round draft pick in the 2015 draft. The depth and talent level of players in drafts is different from year to year.

[Shawn]

Lots of if's for a player who always played small. He is Troyish with his upside, and if he ever reaches it will far surpass any other ILB from that draft. But, the guy needs to stay healthy and learn to lock horns and shed. That he never done well. He is a gap shooter but not a guy at this point you can rely on to hold his ground. If you run right at him you neutralize him. He has to improve.

[Shawn]

Vince Williams is a man amongst boys. The guy gets no love because he is limited. But, he has what Shazier does not...and that is physicality. Williams is a mean man. I love what he brings ever though he couldn't cover my grandmother.

[RuthlessBurgher]

1st round picks don't need to be considered special to be a successful pick. Very few players drafted every year are special players. Players like Ben and Troy can be considered special. Those types of players don't come around often.

Who knows? Williams might be a solid pro longer than Shahzier for different reasons.

I think people should consider how they view the draft. For instance, a first round draft pick in 2014 might not be considered a first round draft pick in the 2015 draft. The depth and talent level of players in drafts is different from year to year.

Yeah, look at the players drafted in the top half of the first round in Jarvis Jones' draft class in 2013. So far, it looks like that class sucked the big one early on (although we may have totally lucked out with probably the most talented player overall to come out that year in Le'Veon Bell). Eric Fisher, Luke Joeckel, Dion Jordan, Lane Johnson, Ezekiel Ansah, Barkevious Mingo, Jonathan Cooper, Tavon Austin, Dee Milliner, Chance Warmack, D.J. Fluker, D.J. Hayden, Sheldon Richardson, Star Lotulelei, Kenny Vaccaro, and E.J. Manuel. Only Sheldon Richardson is a Pro Bowler at this point, and other than him, the only guys that I see with possible future Pro Bowl potential may be Ziggy Ansah and Star Lotulelei...with only a few other marginal level NFL starters and the likelihood for multiple outright busts.

Compare that to the players drafted in the top half of the first round in Cam Heyward's draft class in 2011. Unless you made a big-time reach for a mediocre QB early like Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, and Christian Ponder (I distinctly remember thinking all of them were huge reaches at the time that draft happened...this is not just revisionist history), then you likely hit a home run with your early pick that year. All of these guys have already made the Pro Bowl...Cam Newton, Von Miller, Marcell Dareus, A.J. Green, Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones, Aldon Smith, Tyron Smith, J.J. Watt, Robert Quinn, Mike Pouncey, and Ryan Kerrigan. That draft was so good early, that really good players like Muhammad Wilkerson and Cam Heyward (normally, top notch d-linemen go in the top 10 or so picks) were still available down at picks 30 & 31.

[Oviedo]

he has what Shazier does not...and that is physicality.

...and lacks athleticism and speed and talent. It's football not Halloween. Being mean and scary usually does not make a difference on the field when it comes to making plays, athleticism, speed and talent usually does make a difference.;)

[birtikidis]

...and lacks athleticism and speed and talent. It's football not Halloween. Being mean and scary usually does not make a difference on the field when it comes to making plays, athleticism, speed and talent usually does make a difference.;)
Williams reminds me of Kevin Greene. I really think that he could be a really good outside linebacker. I don't think he'd have the sack numbers, but he could definitely shut down that side of the line. You're pretty predictable if you can only go one way. Him and Heyward could really collapse a pocket...

[Shoe]

Hindsight being what it is, the Shazier pick may be a pick the team wouldn't make if they could do it again.

But it isn't because he doesn't still have a world of upside. It is only because Vince Williams has exceeded expectations (to this point), AND Spence has recoevered in a way that no one could expect. (And not to say he's really done anything beyond show a glimpse.) And keep in mind we also have guys like Zumwalt and Garvin, to go with "old pro" Timmons (old being 28 or so).

[phillyesq]

1st round picks don't need to be considered special to be a successful pick. Very few players drafted every year are special players. Players like Ben and Troy can be considered special. Those types of players don't come around often.

Generally, I'd agree, but I think it depends on position. With premium positions, you just need a league average player. With middle linebacker, I think you want more than just league average. Particularly when there was the solid but unspectacular Mosley on the board, you need Shazier to turn into a well above average type player. Otherwise, it's foolish to pick an inside linebacker in the middle of the first round.

[Oviedo]

Hindsight being what it is, the Shazier pick may be a pick the team wouldn't make if they could do it again.

But it isn't because he doesn't still have a world of upside. It is only because Vince Williams has exceeded expectations (to this point), AND Spence has recoevered in a way that no one could expect. (And not to say he's really done anything beyond show a glimpse.) And keep in mind we also have guys like Zumwalt and Garvin, to go with "old pro" Timmons (old being 28 or so).

Williams and Spence are like Larry Foote. Potentially solid players but they aren't going to move the needle on helping your team defense become great.

I think the team would absolutely take Shazier again. he is the type of speed player you need to cover RBs and TEs in pass patterns that are more the norm than ever before. That said, he needs to show something just like Jones or our last two #1 picks were not good ones.

I doubt Zumwalt or Garvin even make the Final 53 unless they earn a "teams" spot. Unfortunate because I really liked Zumwalt coming out but the numbers just seem to be working against him.

[RuthlessBurgher]

On the recent Super Bowl defenses, Foote may have been considered to be among the 3 worst players on the field because of all the great players on those defenses. But if you put Foote (in his prime) on our current defense, he might be among the 3 best players on the field. He's no weak link. Hell, he was the glue that held a respectable Cardinals defense together just last year, and is now on Arians' coaching staff out there.

[RuthlessBurgher]

Asked and Answered: June 16

Posted 7 hours ago

Bob Labriola Steelers.com

Another installment of Bob Labriola answering your questions about the Steelers and the NFL.

Let’s get to it:

GREG MARZOLF FROM PENDLETON, S.C.:
With all the potential starters at inside linebacker, what is the chance the Steelers explore trades for Sean Spence and Vince Williams, especially with Jordan Zumwalt and Anthony Chickillo waiting in the wings?

Chris Combs and Jason Gavadza. Roger Knight. Matt Kranchick and Drew Caylor. Marvin Phillip. Mike Humpal. Keith Williams. Those names represent a group of players who came to the Steelers via the sixth rounds of different drafts, which is the same way Jordan Zumwalt and Anthony Chickillo came to the team over the past two years. My point is that sixth-round draft picks are hardly sure things, and so to assume that Zumwalt and Chickillo are players “waiting in the wings” instead of being players who have yet to show they even belong on an NFL roster isn’t the way I would approach figuring out which 53 make up the best group to open the 2015 season. The way I see it, Spence and Williams clearly are going to be among the best 53 players who eventually assemble in Latrobe on July 25, and I want the best players. For me, it’s foolish to look past players who have proven themselves to some degree in favor of the unknown.

LARRY LANDRY FROM EDGEWATER, FL:
Love your column. So, let me ask this: What exactly is the difference between OTAs and minicamp?

According to Rams Coach Jeff Fisher, there is no difference, and that’s why his team does not have a minicamp. The Rams’ final OTA is set for June 18, the same day the Steelers end their offseason program with the final day of their minicamp. “I think when you look actually at the veteran minicamp, it’s really no different than an OTA,” said Fisher. “You’re allowed to go on the field once. You get to have a walk-through. You get to keep them in the building for 12 hours rather than six. I personally think that’s too much and too long during the offseason.” As for the Steelers, minicamp starts today and runs through June 18, and it’s close to a regular eight-hour day on Tuesday and Wednesday, with a shortened schedule for Thursday. Their time on the field each day is the same as it was for OTAs, but the session is scheduled for mid-afternoon – closer to the time when training camp practice begins. It’s still football in shorts.

C.J. CAVEZZA FROM CHESAPEAKE, VA:
When we last won a Super Bowl, Lawrence Timmons floated around and saw a lot of time at outside linebacker. Last year when he pressured off the edge, he once again looked to be our best edge rusher. If Jarvis Jones proves again to be injury-prone, could you see Timmons moved to the outside since our most reliable depth is at inside linebacker?

I will concede that in 2008, which was Lawrence Timmons’ second NFL season, he was deployed as something other than a conventional inside linebacker because the Steelers had James Farrior and Larry Foote there. But one of the reasons Foote was not retained following Super Bowl XLIII was because the team saw Timmons as his replacement at inside linebacker. With the exception of a few desperate times created by a rash of injuries, Timmons has remained at that spot, and I dispute your contention that in 2014 “he once again looked to be our best edge rusher.” James Harrison and Jason Worilds were the team’s best edge rushers in 2014. One final disagreement: Jarvis Jones sustained a dislocated wrist last season, and that’s not the type of injury typically associated with the term injury-prone. I am going to continue to stick up for Jarvis Jones because I believe he’s going to be a player for this team, but as an answer to the question, I do not believe the coaching staff’s response to a bad season from Jones would be to move Timmons to outside linebacker.

TOM COOPER FROM CHOCTAW, OK:
As a life-long Steeler fan and a former U.S. Air Force Sergeant, I have seen Steeler fans in every state in the union and in many of the foreign nations I have visited over the years. I am very proud to display my Steelers gear everywhere I go. As I have traveled over the years, I am amazed at how many Steelers haters/jealous types there are in the world. I just chalk it up to what I like to call 'trophy' envy. Also, have you heard about the possibility of one of my favorite all-time favorite Steelers greats, Rod Woodson, getting into coaching, preferably with the Steelers, but anywhere would be a boon to the young men he could pass his knowledge onto.

From his retirement in 2003 to February 2011, Rod Woodson worked as an analyst for NFL Network and for the Big Ten Network. He spent the 2011 football season as the Oakland Raiders cornerbacks coach. He then returned to broadcasting in 2012-13 when he worked for Westwood One. Woodson currently is the Raiders assistant defensive backs coach. There seems to be little doubt that Woodson is interested in coaching, but I also believe he has a real interest in doing that close to where his family lives on the West Coast.

DONALD SNYDER FROM EFFORT, PA:
I am interested in learning the history of the Steelers from the 1930s to the 1960s. Is there a book or some other source like a DVD that would help me?

My suggestion would be a biography on Art Rooney Sr., titled “Rooney: A Sporting Life,” written by Rob Ruck, Maggie Jones Patterson, and Michael P. Weber. It was published by University of Nebraska Press. It is a comprehensive biography on the Steelers founder, and therefore contains the most complete and detailed information I’ve ever come across on the era you mention. It’s a 521-page book that grows to 604 pages with notes and bibliography. Well-researched.

DANIEL RUSSELL FROM RUTHERFORDTON, N.C.:
What is the real reason Dick LeBeau left to go to Tennessee? I just don’t see a 78-year-old man packing up his bags to start anew somewhere else. Was there a conflict with Mike Tomlin in the direction the defense should take? Does Tomlin think the 3-4 is a thing of the past? If you don’t know, can you speculate?

Your last sentence, to me, summarizes everything that’s wrong with the Internet era in which we live. “If you don’t know, can you speculate?” In other words, “If you don’t know, make something up. Throw some stuff at the wall and see what sticks.” If that’s what you want, I suggest First Take on ESPN. That’s not going to happen here.

JOE FANELLI FROM ALTOONA, PA:
Thank you for "Asked and Answered." Has there been any word on what game the Steelers will honor Jerome Bettis?

On Steelers.com, there is a Wednesday feature titled, “What’s New on Wednesday.” For example, last Wednesday, June 10, the training camp schedule was announced. The information you are seeking – the date of the Jerome Bettis Hall of Fame recognition and ring ceremony game – will be announced on Wednesday, June 24. The story will be posted by 9 a.m. EDT.

http://www.steelers.com/news/asked-and-answered/article-1/Asked-and-Answered-June-16/18385485-de1b-4959-8019-f8190ae3377c

[Shawn]

...and lacks athleticism and speed and talent. It's football not Halloween. Being mean and scary usually does not make a difference on the field when it comes to making plays, athleticism, speed and talent usually does make a difference.;) Yeah, I'm pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about. Williams can play ball and at this stage of the game is a better ILB than Shazier. Williams is strong, athletic and has enough speed to get the job done. The guy is underrated. Shazier is overrated by some here who believe he is the next coming. Shazier has much work to do to be anything other than a situational pass rusher.

[Shawn]

On the recent Super Bowl defenses, Foote may have been considered to be among the 3 worst players on the field because of all the great players on those defenses. But if you put Foote (in his prime) on our current defense, he might be among the 3 best players on the field. He's no weak link. Hell, he was the glue that held a respectable Cardinals defense together just last year, and is now on Arians' coaching staff out there. Exactly, someone making some sense. You need some Footes. The guy in his prime was solid and reasonable. Wait until Brown and Bell want to get paid. Wait til that whole OL wants paid. Beachum was rated as a top 5 NFL LT last season...Pouncey, DeCastro, Bell, Brown, and Ben sucking on that salary cap teat. We need guy like Williams and Spence, guys who play solid ball and who wont break the bank.

[Slapstick]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you don't know what you are talking about. Williams can play ball and at this stage of the game is a better ILB than Shazier. Williams is strong, athletic and has enough speed to get the job done. The guy is underrated. Shazier is overrated by some here who believe he is the next coming. Shazier has much work to do to be anything other than a situational pass rusher.

All that being said, he's still going to be a better football player than Vince Williams...hopefully as early as this season.

[Eddie Spaghetti]

Exactly, someone making some sense. You need some Footes. The guy in his prime was solid and reasonable. Wait until Brown and Bell want to get paid. Wait til that whole OL wants paid. Beachum was rated as a top 5 NFL LT last season...Pouncey, DeCastro, Bell, Brown, and Ben sucking on that salary cap teat. We need guy like Williams and Spence, guys who play solid ball and who wont break the bank.

Agreed Shawn. That was always my point when ovi castigated Ramon Foster year after year despite him providing solid play that far exceeded his paycheck. You can't have pro bowlers at every single position.

As far as williams goes, I think he can be very good. All this bull about passing league now and needing elite spped to cover all these uber TEs sounds great on a computer sceen, but doesn't look so good on the ballfield when the calendar turns to December and a team like the ravens is trying to smash your face in. There is always a place for a nasty player like Vince Williams on your club

[Shoe]

Williams and Spence are like Larry Foote. Potentially solid players but they aren't going to move the needle on helping your team defense become great.

I think the team would absolutely take Shazier again. he is the type of speed player you need to cover RBs and TEs in pass patterns that are more the norm than ever before. That said, he needs to show something just like Jones or our last two #1 picks were not good ones.

I doubt Zumwalt or Garvin even make the Final 53 unless they earn a "teams" spot. Unfortunate because I really liked Zumwalt coming out but the numbers just seem to be working against him.

You might be right. If they think Shazier is the next Brian Urlacher, then you are right. My point being, we have a logjam of starting caliber guys at LB. If we could go back in time, does our draft board have Zach Martin rated very closely to Shazier? Or maybe Dennard? At the time, ILB was a big unknown, with only Timmons being established.