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View Full Version : Why do we find ourselves so mediocre? No mystery.



sick beats
05-04-2014, 03:21 PM
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/draft.htm

Let's not kid ourselves: Excluding last year's draft, because we just don't know yet, the FIVE previous drafts since then are all terrible. If you don't look at those drafts and shake your head over how terrible they are, you are purposely avoiding the truth.

Those draft classes are just terrible, I mean, Cleveland- and Jags-level bad.

Slapstick
05-04-2014, 03:49 PM
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/draft.htm

Let's not kid ourselves: Excluding last year's draft, because we just don't know yet, the FIVE previous drafts since then are all terrible. If you don't look at those drafts and shake your head over how terrible they are, you are purposely avoiding the truth.

Those draft classes are just terrible, I mean, Cleveland- and Jags-level bad.

I'll give you 2008 and 2009...those were the bad draft classes that put us in the current situation...

But, we have netted several starters out of the last three drafts, some of them very good:

2010? Pouncey, Worilds and Antonio Brown
2011? Heyward, Allen (and Gilbert)
2012? DeCastro, Beachum (and Adams)

We don't know about 2013, but I do have faith in the top half of our draft (Jarvis Jones, Bell, Wheaton and Shamarko Thomas)...

RobinCole
05-04-2014, 03:55 PM
You can go back a little further. In 2005 and 2006 we drafted 17 players. Heath Miller is all we have left. Granted, Holmes "show us how to be great" in 2008, but one good year is not enough for a #1.

Slapstick
05-04-2014, 06:19 PM
2005 was ten drafts ago...to have only one player remaining is not shocking...

Moonie
05-04-2014, 11:14 PM
I'm one of the least knowledgeable around here, but my sense of why we are mediocre is coaching and/or preparation related - just seem unable to get prepared for the start of the season and play consistently to the level attainable. Now that level may be lower than it's been in the past, but even so.

I don't expect any change this year either. It will be another frustrating start, several positions won't be settled until well into the year, and another 8-8 season.

sick beats
05-05-2014, 12:46 AM
I'm one of the least knowledgeable around here, but my sense of why we are mediocre is coaching and/or preparation related - just seem unable to get prepared for the start of the season and play consistently to the level attainable. Now that level may be lower than it's been in the past, but even so.

I don't expect any change this year either. It will be another frustrating start, several positions won't be settled until well into the year, and another 8-8 season.

Moonie, you have great points, but looking at those drafts, its no wonder we are so so

Coolie Man
05-05-2014, 06:58 AM
Not only bad drafts but drafting bad fits. ****ty fits like ziggy hood. Also we are using a 1990 defense in an era where the game has changed but we haven't.

Oviedo
05-05-2014, 08:54 AM
Not only bad drafts but drafting bad fits. ****ty fits like ziggy hood. Also we are using a 1990 defense in an era where the game has changed but we haven't.


Bingo! We are still try to do things on defense we did 7-8 years ago without the players to do it. The game has changed rapidly but our defense scheme hasn't and has been in decline in terms of sacks and INTs for 4 years now. Isn't that what the great LeBeau defense was known for and supposedly designed for: Pressure and turnovers?

Captain Lemming
05-05-2014, 09:28 AM
Bingo! We are still try to do things on defense we did 7-8 years ago without the players to do it. The game has changed rapidly but our defense scheme hasn't and has been in decline in terms of sacks and INTs for 4 years now. Isn't that what the great LeBeau defense was known for and supposedly designed for: Pressure and turnovers?

Scheme cannot fix no talent.
Ask the Cowboys who became among the worst defense in the league moving from a 3/4 to a 4/3.

Captain Lemming
05-05-2014, 09:38 AM
Not only bad drafts but drafting bad fits. ****ty fits like ziggy hood. Also we are using a 1990 defense in an era where the game has changed but we haven't.

90s defense? Really? More number one defenses BY FAR in the 10 years since 2004. Ridiculous.
You do have a point about drafting poor fits. Drafting is the only problem.

phillyesq
05-05-2014, 09:57 AM
Scheme cannot fix no talent.
Ask the Cowboys who became the worst defense in the league moving from a 3/4 to a 4/3.

Exactly. I think you can even argue that you need more talent in a 4-3. Elite pass rushing DEs are very hard to come by. That is why 4-3 DEs are the second highest paid position in football, behind only QBs - scarcity.

Regardless of scheme, you need talent.

Shoe
05-05-2014, 10:18 AM
Yes, its not the scheme--it is the talent. BUT--losing to Tennessee at home in the first weekend, or getting trounced by Baltimore, staring 0-4... you have to ask whether Camp Tomlin is doing what they need to, to be ready for Week 1.

If we won Week 1 this past season, we probably make the playoffs.

Ghost
05-05-2014, 10:29 AM
I think it's a lot more than just being ready for week 1. 2013 started 0-4 and they were 2-6 with horrific losses to the Titans, Vikings (with a QB starting his 1st game of the year) and the Raiders. They had the talent to beat all 3 of those teams.

And 2012 was only marginally better at the start going 2-3 in the first five with losses to bad Titans and Raiders teams.

There may be some talent concerns but take the Vikings game - I'm not sure I can remember a game in the recent past where the entire team looked as if they's collectively rather be anywhere else in the world rather than playing a game. And playing down to the competition is ridiculous. The losses to an abysmal Raiders team two years in a row were sickening.

They should be 4-2 to start the year this season. We'll see if the coaching staff has figured out a way to not come out flat.

Captain Lemming
05-05-2014, 10:35 AM
Exactly. I think you can even argue that you need more talent in a 4-3. Elite pass rushing DEs are very hard to come by. That is why 4-3 DEs are the second highest paid position in football, behind only QBs - scarcity.

Regardless of scheme, you need talent.

Great point.
Consider this point- Among all the great pass rushers we have had over the years, how many were first round picks? Second round? One guy Woodley.


Last season, 4/3 teams took EVERY PASS RUSH SPECIALIST before our pick. 3 of the first 6 picks in the entire draft were defensive ends. Those same guys might work in our scheme but we had no shot.

Two of these guys were not even great college players and they went top 6, which shows how coveted they are.

6-6 250 elite college DE is a 1st round top 10 pick everyone wants.
Same guy minus 4 inches is Lamar Woodley who was a FAR BETTER college DE than ANY of the three guys drafted last year. We have a shot without being a bottom feeder team to earn a top pick.

Captain Lemming
05-05-2014, 10:42 AM
I think it's a lot more than just being ready for week 1. 2013 started 0-4 and they were 2-6 with horrific losses to the Titans, Vikings (with a QB starting his 1st game of the year) and the Raiders. They had the talent to beat all 3 of those teams.

And 2012 was only marginally better at the start going 2-3 in the first five with losses to bad Titans and Raiders teams.

There may be some talent concerns but take the Vikings game - I'm not sure I can remember a game in the recent past where the entire team looked as if they's collectively rather be anywhere else in the world rather than playing a game. And playing down to the competition is ridiculous. The losses to an abysmal Raiders team two years in a row were sickening.

They should be 4-2 to start the year this season. We'll see if the coaching staff has figured out a way to not come out flat.

You and Shoe have valid points.
My point is that scheme is not the problem.

(and the Raiders thing is getting ridiculous. We lose to scrub Raiders teams in GOOD seasons. We hold them to 98 yards we gain 320 in 2006 and they beat us 20 to 13 as a result of TWO pick six's by Ben. Weird.)

steelz09
05-05-2014, 10:42 AM
Scheme cannot fix no talent.
Ask the Cowboys who became among the worst defense in the league moving from a 3/4 to a 4/3.

There ya go again ... bringing logic into the equation. :)

Switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 will not solve anything.

Oviedo
05-05-2014, 10:52 AM
Scheme cannot fix no talent.
Ask the Cowboys who became among the worst defense in the league moving from a 3/4 to a 4/3.

So we just have no talent and our scheme only works with elite talent. So what do we do? If you don't have the talent to run your scheme you suggest we just keep doing the same thing? Just hope a miracle occurs or we just get the perfect players?

You adjust scheme to fit the talents of the players not vice versa. Just look at the offense, we have a poor OL and Haley implements a quick, rhythm passing scheme that allows the QB to get rid of the ball quicker and not rely on the OL to do what they can't. At the end of the season when Ben bought in the offense starts to soar.

Why is it that we can never expect LeBeau to change?

phillyesq
05-05-2014, 10:56 AM
So we just have no talent and our scheme only works with elite talent. So what do we do? If you don't have the talent to run your scheme you suggest we just keep doing the same thing? Just hope a miracle occurs or we just get the perfect players?

You adjust scheme to fit the talents of the players not vice versa. Just look at the offense, we have a poor OL and Haley implements a quick, rhythm passing scheme that allows the QB to get rid of the ball quicker and not rely on the OL to do what they can't. At the end of the season when Ben bought in the offense starts to soar.

Why is it that we can never expect LeBeau to change?

Who is your elite weakside pass rushing DE, which is all but a requirement for a 4-3? The only above-average defensive lineman on the team is Heyward. The rest are mediocre, at best. Building a system which highlights mediocrity is entirely nonsensical.

Oviedo
05-05-2014, 11:17 AM
Who is your elite weakside pass rushing DE, which is all but a requirement for a 4-3? The only above-average defensive lineman on the team is Heyward. The rest are mediocre, at best. Building a system which highlights mediocrity is entirely nonsensical.

So keeping a system that doesn't work anymore ISN'T nonsensical? Just more of the same?

feltdizz
05-05-2014, 12:22 PM
we are screwed if we need elite talent for our scheme to work.

sick beats
05-05-2014, 01:29 PM
I'll give you 2008 and 2009...those were the bad draft classes that put us in the current situation...

But, we have netted several starters out of the last three drafts, some of them very good:

Not sure if I agree with your definition of "very good."


2010? Pouncey, Worilds and Antonio Brown

Everyone seems to ASSUME Pouncey is a good pick. That is an assumption. He has played decent at time, at other times he looks weak, and then he has missed a ton of games. For a mid-round first rounder, I don't consider it a great pick. If anything I give it an "I."

Worilds.....if he ends up producing this year I will give it a good grade. But you'd like a 2nd rounder to produce sooner, but some of that is just circumstances. We will see. Brown is a flat out home run; I don't care what round he was taken in, he is a fabulous player.


2011? Heyward, Allen (and Gilbert)
2012? DeCastro, Beachum (and Adams)

I will give you Heyward, Allen and probably DD. But dude! You are putting Gilbert and Adams as evidence of good draft picks? They are horrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beachum was dumb luck. THEY didn't even think he was worthy of playing until they had no choice.

I still maintain: The Steelers have drafted horribly for most of the last 5 years. THAT is the root of why we aren't a very good team, and that is WITH a franchise QB. Without Ben, this is a 6-10 team or worse.

sick beats
05-05-2014, 01:32 PM
Bingo! We are still try to do things on defense we did 7-8 years ago without the players to do it. The game has changed rapidly but our defense scheme hasn't and has been in decline in terms of sacks and INTs for 4 years now. Isn't that what the great LeBeau defense was known for and supposedly designed for: Pressure and turnovers?

Is it any wonder that out 80-year-old DC isn't changing with the times? Why aren't there 80-year-old CEOs out there? There is a reason.

Slapstick
05-05-2014, 02:07 PM
Not sure if I agree with your definition of "very good."

You don't have to....




Everyone seems to ASSUME Pouncey is a good pick. That is an assumption. He has played decent at time, at other times he looks weak, and then he has missed a ton of games. For a mid-round first rounder, I don't consider it a great pick. If anything I give it an "I."

Worilds.....if he ends up producing this year I will give it a good grade. But you'd like a 2nd rounder to produce sooner, but some of that is just circumstances. We will see. Brown is a flat out home run; I don't care what round he was taken in, he is a fabulous player.

Pouncey was a good pick. Last year was a fluke injury...




I will give you Heyward, Allen and probably DD. But dude! You are putting Gilbert and Adams as evidence of good draft picks? They are horrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beachum was dumb luck. THEY didn't even think he was worthy of playing until they had no choice.

I still maintain: The Steelers have drafted horribly for most of the last 5 years. THAT is the root of why we aren't a very good team, and that is WITH a franchise QB. Without Ben, this is a 6-10 team or worse.

Gilbert and Adams are guys who have started games...as I said, "several starters"...they were listed in parentheses because the "good" starters were listed first...the jury is still out on those two, but I am interested in what working with Munchak can do for them technically...

Whether Beachum was dumb luck or not, they picked him...

You can still maintain whatever you want...I was merely disagreeing with you...

phillyesq
05-05-2014, 02:20 PM
So keeping a system that doesn't work anymore ISN'T nonsensical? Just more of the same?

I think you can argue, quite simply, that the system does still work. The defense was league average last year, and given the lack of talent, that was actually a pretty good result.

Oviedo
05-05-2014, 02:59 PM
I think you can argue, quite simply, that the system does still work. The defense was league average last year, and given the lack of talent, that was actually a pretty good result.

I guess you are right if mediocre and average is the goal. Perhaps in 3-4 years we will have all the stars align and have just the right combination of players and be a top defense again.

Captain Lemming
05-05-2014, 04:12 PM
So we just have no talent and our scheme only works with elite talent. So what do we do? If you don't have the talent to run your scheme you suggest we just keep doing the same thing? Just hope a miracle occurs or we just get the perfect players?

Really dude. Lets talk about the "talent" DL has had while having this unsurpassed stretch run of highly ranked defenses.
2008, we win the Superbowl with the number one defense in yards, in scoring, in passing yards and JUST MISSED rush yards. If we did that it would be the first time IN HISTORY.
Our offense? 20 something in both yards and points.

Talent? All of THREE starters were 1st round picks. (Hampton, Troy, and Farrior). Only Farrior (8th) was a first half of round one pick.
Our best DE...an OLD 4th round pick. A free agent on the other side.
Our best Corner....a late found pick WHO CANT CATCH.
Pure garage opposite him.
Our best LBer, a thrice cut free agent.

Yes we had some players with great careers, but we had HOLES in talent that DL covered up quite well with his "scheme'
For example....that 10 yard cushion you HATE? Yeah THAT is how you can have a number one defense with William Gay starting games.

This was no Steel Curtain of talent.
You wanna talk about "needing elite talent" you need to stop with DL and talk Noll.


You adjust scheme to fit the talents of the players not vice versa. Just look at the offense, we have a poor OL and Haley implements a quick, rhythm passing scheme that allows the QB to get rid of the ball quicker and not rely on the OL to do what they can't. At the end of the season when Ben bought in the offense starts to soar.


How specifically does changing to a 4/3 "fit our talent?"
We have been drafting for the 3/4 for THIRTY YEARS.

Among our starters WE DO NOT HAVE ONE GUY who screams "4/3 DE".


Why is it that we can never expect LeBeau to change?

But lets see some examples:

Troy plays safety WAY different than Lake did. Heck it is different than ANY safety.
When we lost Foote at LB Troy played at times there.
Watch Ike versus any other corner.....DL played him VERY differently when he was on his game.
When we had Woodson, he had freedom DL does not give other corners.

The problem is that when you draft poorly it does not matter scheme. Frankly it is AMAZING DL kept that aging defense so good for as long as he did.

DL adjusts plenty.
But it is STUPID to dump a scheme you drafted for for decades in the blind hope that it will be better, when you know better.

Slapstick
05-05-2014, 06:42 PM
The idea that LeBeau does not adjust is a fallacy...

LeBeau made adjustments last season...allowing our DEs to get upfield led to Heyward's emergence...

Playing Troy at ILB attempted to cover for some of Vince Williams' deficiencies...

Letting our CBs play one side of the field led to Ike not having his lunch eaten weekly and Cortez Allen having 5 PDs and a pick 6 in the last three games....

Making a wholesale change to the D isn't an adjustment...and I don't think switching to a 4-3 solves anything at this point...