Can we stop with the we lose because "Art II is forcing us to run the ball"

[Captain Lemming]

Is ANYBODY here paying attention to what is REALLY HAPPENING?

We are not losing games because we run too much.
We are 31st IN RUSH ATTEMPTS.

Are you people watching VIKING games and getting confused?

Ben threw PLENTY on Monday.
Ben threw DEEP plenty on Monday.
Ben EXTENDED PLAYS like he wants plenty on Monday.

Why did we lose then?

The receivers dropped PLENTY of passes on Monday.
Ben misses PLENTY of receivers on Monday.
Ben got sacked extending plays like he wants to on Monday
The best completion of the day, WAS FUMBLED

We opened the game with three straight runs (admittedly stupid) but that is ALL anyone remembers.

Outside on that ONE DRIVE this has been a decidedly pass-centric team over the coarse of TWO games.
And Monday's game cant be called "dink and dunk" either. Watch a replay. You will find 9 or 10 twenty yard or longer (in the air) pass attempts that failed.

[Sword]

Is ANYBODY here paying attention to what is REALLY HAPPENING?

We are not losing games because we run too much.
We are 31st IN RUSH ATTEMPTS.

Are you people watching VIKING games and getting confused?

Ben threw PLENTY on Monday.
Ben threw DEEP plenty on Monday.
Ben EXTENDED PLAYS like he wants plenty on Monday.

Why did we lose then?

The receivers dropped PLENTY of passes on Monday.
Ben misses PLENTY of receivers on Monday.
Ben got sacked extending plays like he wants to on Monday
The best completion of the day, WAS FUMBLED

We opened the game with three straight runs (admittedly stupid) but that is ALL anyone remembers.

Outside on that ONE DRIVE this has been a decidedly pass-centric team over the coarse of TWO games.
And Monday's game cant be called "dink and dunk" either. Watch a replay. You will find 9 or 10 twenty yard or longer (in the air) pass attempts that failed.

You do realize that if you don't practice enough in the passing(drop passes, missing receivers) and the correct plays you will not succeed. No matter what talent you have.
There is such thing as bad pass plays versus good pass plays...same with the running plays...

I've always said, you have to prove the pass in order to run not the other way around......

[SteelerOfDeVille]

I hate raw stats... especially when the person posting them is being deceptive, as you are (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you know better).

Even as a loser of 2 games (i.e., you pass a LOT MORE), Ben is 22nd in pass attempts... I could argue all of your "plenty" stats are faulty based on raw numbers alone. if he's 22nd with INFLATED pass numbers due to hurry up at the end of games, then, jeez...

What neither of those rankings independently explains, but, together clearly show is this: They simply aren't moving the ball. the team is THIRTIETH in time of possesion. They don't have many plays period, rushing or passing. I read somewhere that Alex Smith has more rushing yards than the Steelers entire team. I also happen to know that Ben is 27th in passing yards.

Blame it on drops if you wanna. On the season, the team has four dropped passes... FOUR. Good for an "average" rating in the NFL (14th). The 2-0 Patriots have 8... TWICE as many. The 2-0 Broncos have 7. So, sure, a couple of drops, may well have stopped drives (sounds like possibly 2 per game). But, what about the other drives in each game they didn't move the ball on.

Blame it on miscues: bad passes & drops, if you want. HOWEVER, Ben has a higher completion percentage than Tom Brady (whose team as i've already pointed out happens to be 2-0).

The fact is, the offense is simply ineffective. PERIOD.

[Captain Lemming]

You do realize that if you don't practice enough in the passing(drop passes, missing receivers) and the correct plays you will not succeed. No matter what talent you have.
There is such thing as bad pass plays versus good pass plays...same with the running plays...

I've always said, you have to prove the pass in order to run not the other way around......

What? Sword are you kidding?
Seriously dude you are just throwing stuff out there.
Is Ben practicing handing off more than he is throwing the ball?
Do the receivers not practice catching the ball because their time is spent learning to run block? Really?
And where do you get this idea that we dont practice pass plays?

Flippy WENT TO the scrimmages and raved about the receivers more than anybody.

Let me add, THIS WAS A PASS CENTRIC TEAM LAST YEAR too.

We RAN LESS than ANY time during Ben's career as a Steeler.

Do the Rooneys want a better run game? Of course, it is HORRIBLE.
But they arent controlling playcalling, which is clear because WE DONT RUN THAT MUCH.

We lost two games.
The common advantage of our foes is that they BOTH RAN better than us.

[Sword]

What? Sword are you kidding?
Seriously dude you are just throwing stuff out there.
Is Ben practicing handing off more than he is throwing the ball?
Do the receivers not practice catching the ball because their time is spent learning to run block? Really?
And where do you get this idea that we dont practice pass plays?

Flippy WENT TO the scrimmages and raved about the receivers more than anybody.

Let me add, THIS WAS A PASS CENTRIC TEAM LAST YEAR too.

We RAN LESS than ANY time during Ben's career as a Steeler.

Do the Rooneys want a better run game? Of course, it is HORRIBLE.
But they arent controlling playcalling, which is clear because WE DONT RUN THAT MUCH.

We lost two games.
The common advantage of our foes is that they BOTH RAN better than us.

And your not not throwing things out there? please...
Seeing receivers catch a ball at a scrimmage game means nothing..What matters is in the win and lost column. And we are not winning.
When receivers and QB are not connecting in a real game that is at least from a lack of practice and \or the type of pass play called...

[Jigawatts]

Mike Tomlin, aheem, I mean Isaac Redman fumbled the ball in a key situation and we lost the game. Mike Tomlin, or whatever that receivers name is, fumbled the ball after a big gain and we lost the game. The offense has problems, but we're giving it away and not taking it back.

Giveaway/Takeaway is a killer

[Captain Lemming]

I hate raw stats... especially when the person posting them is being deceptive, as you are (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you know better).

Even as a loser of 2 games (i.e., you pass a LOT MORE), Ben is 22nd in pass attempts... I could argue all of your "plenty" stats are faulty based on raw numbers alone. if he's 22nd with INFLATED pass numbers due to hurry up at the end of games, then, jeez...

What neither of those rankings independently explains, but, together clearly show is this: They simply aren't moving the ball. the team is THIRTIETH in time of possesion. They don't have many plays period, rushing or passing. I read somewhere that Alex Smith has more rushing yards than the Steelers entire team. I also happen to know that Ben is 27th in passing yards.

Blame it on drops if you wanna. On the season, the team has four dropped passes... FOUR. Good for an "average" rating in the NFL (14th). The 2-0 Patriots have 8... TWICE as many. The 2-0 Broncos have 7. So, sure, a couple of drops, may well have stopped drives (sounds like possibly 2 per game). But, what about the other drives in each game they didn't move the ball on.

Blame it on miscues: bad passes & drops, if you want. HOWEVER, Ben has a higher completion percentage than Tom Brady (whose team as i've already pointed out happens to be 2-0).

The fact is, the offense is simply ineffective. PERIOD.

Deville you miss my point.
If we had a lead would we be 31st in rushing attempts? No.
"The offense is ineffective period" is the truth.

But my point is that saying we are losing because "we run too much because of Rooney" is ridiculous. You CANNOT be 31st in rushing and be "running too much".

My point is that people are suggesting that "if we let Ben throw we will magically be successful".

Look EXCLUSIVELY at the first half taking out the hurry up element. We MISSED PLENTY of pass opportunities.
And it was not the run, run, pass pattern people whine about. Look at it. After drive one, run, run, run we passed plenty.

I do not think we had A SINGLE run, run, pass, punt in the whole game.

My point is not to just rip on Ben. My point is that whether running, passing or catching, EXECUTION was far and away the biggest issue.

The problem is NOT that Ben was not given opportunities.

I think WE ARE IN FACT SEEING Ben's input IMPLEMENTED, as WE ARE NOT SEEING the dink and dunk feast of last year.

The players just need to play better, thus the meeting.

[Sword]

one more thing to add..Rooney said it himself....
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/rooney-wants-steelers-to-run-the-ball-more-228812/

[Captain Lemming]

And your not not throwing things out there? please...
Seeing receivers catch a ball at a scrimmage game means nothing..What matters is in the win and lost column. And we are not winning.
When receivers and QB are not connecting in a real game that is at least from a lack of practice and \or the type of pass play called...

I am not "throwing stuff out there" I am providing factual information. Plenty of it. You can look it up.
YOU BROUGHT UP PRACTICE, without ANY verification of your assertion. I dont know what happens in practice WHICH I WHY I GAVE Flippys eye witness account which is at odds with you unverified assumption.

You are right what matters is wins and loses.

My point which you cannot nor have even tried to contradict is that your assertion that we are losing because the Rooneys are forcing us to run DOES NOT match the facts of what is actually happening.

[feltdizz]

running on the first 3 plays is running too much...

[Captain Lemming]

one more thing to add..Rooney said it himself....
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/rooney-wants-steelers-to-run-the-ball-more-228812/

No doubt Sword. And with us 31st in attempts no doubt he feels even MORE that way today. He is RIGHT.

But your contention, one that I take issue with is that because of this "2010" quote, we are being forced to run the ball which is why we are losing.

We have in fact ran the ball LESS since he made that quote than we ever have. Why? Because we are not good at running the ball and have no choice.

My issue with your contention is that you act like if we werent forced to run SO MUCH we could get things done passing. That some run mandate must be overridden by Tomlin for us to have success. What "I" am saying is that "despite" Rooneys statement we are not running the ball a whole lot. So what is Tomlin going to "fix" by having the lowest running teams in Steeler history, one that is 31st in rushing run even less?

What needed to happen to with that game was to "complete" more of those missed passing opportunities. There were plenty.

[Captain Lemming]

running on the first 3 plays is running too much...

That is absolutely correct Dizz, it made NO sense whatsoever. Trust me, I was all about to join the hater bandwagon had that continued. Nevertheless, we MORE THAN made up for that imbalance as the game went on to no avail.

[BlitzTo7]

one more thing to add..Rooney said it himself....
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/rooney-wants-steelers-to-run-the-ball-more-228812/

I thought the defense blowing 4th quarter leads was the biggest issue in 2009.

As far as the running game goes, it was actually better under Arians than it has been under Haley. Funny how the guy that supposedly just let Ben sling it like the anti-Rooney had a better rushing attack than the guy who was the ballboy back in the 70's.

[Sword]

No doubt Sword. And with us 31st in attempts no doubt he feels even MORE that way today. He is RIGHT.

But your contention, one that I take issue with is that because of this "2010" quote, we are being forced to run the ball which is why we are losing.

We have in fact ran the ball LESS since he made that quote than we ever have. Why? Because we are not good at running the ball and have no choice.

My issue with your contention is that you act like if we werent forced to run SO MUCH we could get things done passing. That some run mandate must be overridden by Tomlin for us to have success. What "I" am saying is that "despite" Rooneys statement we are not running the ball a whole lot. So what is Tomlin going to "fix" by having the lowest running teams in Steeler history, one that is 31st in rushing run even less?

What needed to happen to with that game was to "complete" more of those missed passing opportunities. There were plenty.

Your putting words in my mouth .. "being forced to run the ball which is why we are losing"
I'm trying to keep it pithy.......maybe it's my fault for not expanding my thoughts.

I believe, in my opinion the Rooney's told management \ Coaches , etc... that they want to get back to a run type of mind set.
I'm not against the run but, since last year they seam to run at the wrong times or run to much and go no where...so predictable...

And I attribute the bad play calling to this mind set....

[BradshawsHairdresser]

Even as a loser of 2 games (i.e., you pass a LOT MORE), Ben is 22nd in pass attempts... I could argue all of your "plenty" stats are faulty based on raw numbers alone. if he's 22nd with INFLATED pass numbers due to hurry up at the end of games, then, jeez...



Well, this one is easy...Ben is 22nd in pass attempts because we CAN'T SUSTAIN DRIVES...when you have as may 3-and-outs as the Steelers have had (even if you never ran the ball), you'd be down the list in number of pass attempts...

[flippy]

Flippy WENT TO the scrimmages and raved about the receivers more than anybody.


Thanks for remembering. Man does that raving sound silly right about now :)

But I do still believe in those guys - Brown, Manny, and Wheaton based on what I saw. And I really do think this team can get it together once we get Wheaton and Heath on the field. I think the big challenge for these guys right now is no one respects our running game or our TEs or Cotch in the slot. And Ben just needs to start playing better somehow.

I know it may sound crazy, but I still don't think this team is that far away from getting it together on offense. And I still think our WRs can be a big part of the success. I thought we might start out slow, but had no idea it could get this bad. It'll get better from here, I have no doubt.

[Captain Lemming]

Your putting words in my mouth .. "being forced to run the ball which is why we are losing"
I'm trying to keep it pithy.......maybe it's my fault for not expanding my thoughts.

I believe, in my opinion the Rooney's told management \ Coaches , etc... that they want to get back to a run type of mind set.
I'm not against the run but, since last year they seam to run at the wrong times or run to much and go no where...so predictable...

And I attribute the bad play calling to this mind set....

This is my point.
What you saw on Monday was in NO WAY predictable, nor run-centric.

Even that first 3 downs. Run on third and long? that was not predictable

After that EVERY DRIVE we passed more than we ran.

We did not have a single predictable rb, rb, pass, punt. NOT ONCE all game.

Predictable runs?
We had our best run of 14 yards after a sack put us at 3rd and 16.
We fooled them on a 3rd down and 16 run which put us in fg range giving us our only lead of the game.

Predictable passing?
1st AND GOAL AT THE ONE.
We throw a pass to a rookie receiver for our touchdown on first down from the one.

WHEN HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A STEELER TEAM DO THAT?

Seriously my friend look closely. We are forming opinions of what went wrong Monday based on a quote from 2010.
Check out this link to the play-by-play (you gotta scroll a bit):

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201309160cin.htm

Please look at the playcalling with an open mind you will be surprised at what you see.

[Captain Lemming]

I think the big challenge for these guys right now is no one respects our running game or our TEs or Cotch in the slot. And Ben just needs to start playing better somehow.

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. I would add the oline, which impacts the rest.


I know it may sound crazy, but I still don't think this team is that far away from getting it together on offense. And I still think our WRs can be a big part of the success. I thought we might start out slow, but had no idea it could get this bad. It'll get better from here, I have no doubt.

Yeah, Flippy I just stop at the first 5 words. The rest is just the proof. :)

Not feeling quite as positive here. :(

[feltdizz]

This is my point.
What you saw on Monday was in NO WAY predictable, nor run-centric.

Even that first 3 downs. Run on third and long? that was not predictable

After that EVERY DRIVE we passed more than we ran.

We did not have a single predictable rb, rb, pass, punt. NOT ONCE all game.

Predictable runs?
We had our best run of 14 yards after a sack put us at 3rd and 16.
We fooled them on a 3rd down and 16 run which put us in fg range giving us our only lead of the game.

Predictable passing?
1st AND GOAL AT THE ONE.
We throw a pass to a rookie receiver for our touchdown on first down from the one.

WHEN HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A STEELER TEAM DO THAT?

Seriously my friend look closely. We are forming opinions of what went wrong Monday based on a quote from 2010.
Check out this link to the play-by-play (you gotta scroll a bit):

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201309160cin.htm

Please look at the playcalling with an open mind you will be surprised at what you see.

The reverse to Crotchery was the only surprise IMO.

Running 3 straight times.. that wasn't shocking... it it was sad... but it damn sure wasn't shocking. I even said it out loud.. if he runs here then you know we are in for a long night.

I was surprised by the fade too...just because we rarely do it with a tall WR.

[Sword]

This is my point.
What you saw on Monday was in NO WAY predictable, nor run-centric.

Even that first 3 downs. Run on third and long? that was not predictable

After that EVERY DRIVE we passed more than we ran.

We did not have a single predictable rb, rb, pass, punt. NOT ONCE all game.

Predictable runs?
We had our best run of 14 yards after a sack put us at 3rd and 16.
We fooled them on a 3rd down and 16 run which put us in fg range giving us our only lead of the game.

Predictable passing?
1st AND GOAL AT THE ONE.
We throw a pass to a rookie receiver for our touchdown on first down from the one.

WHEN HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A STEELER TEAM DO THAT?

Seriously my friend look closely. We are forming opinions of what went wrong Monday based on a quote from 2010.
Check out this link to the play-by-play (you gotta scroll a bit):

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201309160cin.htm

Please look at the playcalling with an open mind you will be surprised at what you see.


What you saw on Monday was in NO WAY predictable, nor run-centric.
I mostly meant last year we were so predictable..I agree there were several UN-predictable plays Monday night

Even that first 3 downs. Run on third and long? that was not predictable
Actually, I was begging the TV for them not to run but, to pass and take advantage of the great field position. worst play calling that I can possibly remember.

After that EVERY DRIVE we passed more than we ran.
Agreed..But the wrong type of pass plays or poor execution on most of those.

1st AND GOAL AT THE ONE.
We throw a pass to a rookie receiver for our touchdown on first down from the one.

WHEN HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A STEELER TEAM DO THAT?

Agree.... Been awhile, was also yelling at the TV not to run and do the very thing they did do. They would have been stopped big time on first down if they ran....

I'm open minded.......Will go back and read when i get more time....

cheers :<)

[Captain Lemming]

The reverse to Crotchery was the only surprise IMO.

Running 3 straight times.. that wasn't shocking... it it was sad... but it damn sure wasn't shocking. I even said it out loud.. if he runs here then you know we are in for a long night.

I was surprised by the fade too...just because we rarely do it with a tall WR.

I am not talking about "halfback pass to QB" level surprise here Dizz.

The claim what made that play-calling was "predictable". Predictable means "I KNOW what to expect". Truth is that it was ANYTHING BUT predictable.

You get no gain and 1 yard on first and second down, you know full well you aren't "predicting" run on 3rd down and 9. The only way that would be "predictable" is for that to be what we typically do on 3rd and nine. It is not.

Dizz look at the plays. save for the end of the game when we were forced to pass, we called plays less predictably than most teams do.

[feltdizz]

I am not talking about "halfback pass to QB" level surprise here Dizz.

The claim what made that play-calling was "predictable". Predictable means "I KNOW what to expect". Truth is that it was ANYTHING BUT predictable.

You get no gain and 1 yard on first and second down, you know full well you aren't "predicting" run on 3rd down and 9. The only way that would be "predictable" is for that to be what we typically do on 3rd and nine. It is not.

Dizz look at the plays. save for the end of the game when we were forced to pass, we called plays less predictably than most teams do.

and we have scored 19 points total and have 75 rushing yard over 2 games.

Obviously its not that unpredictable.... I'm pretty sure teams are familiar with Haleys unpredictable play calling. We aren't catching anyone off guard or seeing players slip into the secondary uncovered.

Its run or pass, 50/50... I prefer plays that catch the D off guard... not Steeler fans.

[Captain Lemming]

and we have scored 19 points total and have 75 rushing yard over 2 games.

Obviously its not that unpredictable.... I'm pretty sure teams are familiar with Haleys unpredictable play calling. We aren't catching anyone off guard or seeing players slip into the secondary uncovered.

Its run or pass, 50/50... I prefer plays that catch the D off guard... not Steeler fans.


If you dont "execute" predictability or lack thereof makes no difference Dizz.
We dropped passes and missed throws.
Our run game is pathetic because the PLAYERS are bad, not because they KNOW when we are going to run.

Dizz what happened on 1st and 10 Monday? There is NO PATTERN.

We ranked in scoring 9th under Cowher, the most predictable offense Ben has had. We ran better when EVERONE IN THE STADIUM knew what was coming on 1st and 10.

In contrast, in the last five years we have ranked:
22
21
12
12
20

Just cause you score dont mean you are "unpredictable" conversely you CAN be unpredictable but if you drop the pass, what does it matter?