The Delusional Optimists Post Game Break Down

[Shawn]

The Good

1) Defense once again looked pretty good. I was a bit disappointed that running looked easier than it should against a Steeler D. I was also disappointed in Clark's mis-read leaving Eifert wide open.

2) Heyward was playing very well last night. He is a guy who is starting to flash. Shoot, even Ziggy was playing with a little attitude last night.

3) Our special teams look special.

4) Our new center is probably the second best OLman on this team...not that is saying much.

The Bad

1) Almost too much bad to name. But, let me start with Ben. I am a huge Ben fan but he hasn't looked himself since getting married. He doesn't have that fire, throwing bad balls in crucial situations...looked almost defeated during several quarters of that game. His throwing last night was sad.

2) The OLine...while better this week against a pretty good Bengal front 7...they were not good enough especially in creating holes for the running game.

3) Paulson...while able to get open and catch, that fumble and him getting blocked on his back several times last night left a bad taste in my mouth.

4) Brown and Sanders are no #1 and #2. I didn't think we lost much when we lost Wallace. I was wrong.

The Ugly

1) The coaching. I have been a Tomlin fan, and a Haley fan...but no longer. I watched Haley split out Redman in 5 wide instead of Wheaton. Wha? The fact that Tomlin allows this nonsense to go on...unbelieveable. I could go through a list of poor calls, but what use would that serve?

2) Why is Redman on this team? Our running game is pathetic.

3) The refs...I mean come on...the Steelers

[papillon]

The Good

1) Defense once again looked pretty good. I was a bit disappointed that running looked easier than it should against a Steeler D. I was also disappointed in Clark's mis-read leaving Eifert wide open.
The defense was stellar IMO, they were on the field for nearly 30 more plays than the offense. Yes, they gave up points, but it was grudgingly and had the Steelers had any offense to speak of they could have won that game rather easily.

2) Heyward was playing very well last night. He is a guy who is starting to flash. Shoot, even Ziggy was playing with a little attitude last night.

3) Our special teams look special.

4) Our new center is probably the second best OLman on this team...not that is saying much.
Right now he's the best lineman, Ben had very little pressure in his face, it typically came from the outside, there were a few pushes in the middle, but by and large the center did very well considering he's been on the team for 6 days.

The Bad

1) Almost too much bad to name. But, let me start with Ben. I am a huge Ben fan but he hasn't looked himself since getting married. He doesn't have that fire, throwing bad balls in crucial situations...looked almost defeated during several quarters of that game. His throwing last night was sad.

2) The OLine...while better this week against a pretty good Bengal front 7...they were not good enough especially in creating holes for the running game.
You're right they couldn't open holes in the running game, but Haley and bag of tricks really fooled the Bengals opening the game with three consecutive running plays. I looked at my wife and said, "this game is over, they aren't handing the ball to Ben and asking him to win the game."

3) Paulson...while able to get open and catch, that fumble and him getting blocked on his back several times last night left a bad taste in my mouth.

4) Brown and Sanders are no #1 and #2. I didn't think we lost much when we lost Wallace. I was wrong.
This is 200% truth, these two guys need Wallace and I misjudged Wallace's worth as well.

The Ugly

1) The coaching. I have been a Tomlin fan, and a Haley fan...but no longer. I watched Haley split out Redman in 5 wide instead of Wheaton. Wha? The fact that Tomlin allows this nonsense to go on...unbelieveable. I could go through a list of poor calls, but what use would that serve?
The coaching is mind boggling at this point, Tomlin should have taken Haley's headset after the first series and asked him to leave.

2) Why is Redman on this team? Our running game is pathetic.
That's a darn good question. I can only surmise that he is actually the 5th WR in the Steeler spread offense and Wheaton is a tailback in disguise.

3) The refs...I mean come on...the Steelers

I hope the Steelers can get this turned around somehow.

Pappy

[Sword]

I agree, but we have to use use our strengths to win....
They need to come out with a passing attack like no other...I mean just forget the dam run
until we have room to run...Because, we cannot run....

[SidSmythe]

Smythe's Optimism: We have a good CORE of players and we still have our QB. this isn't rebuilding mode, this is fix it mode. How long will it take though is the question??

[feltdizz]

A few things...

D looks good but they really need to force a few TO's... Ike trying to catch that pass summed up our TO problem this year. Ike played great tho... whole D played well but I'm spoiled... I expect this D to get a few TO's or force a few fumbles.

Ben hasn't looked good since the marriage? Nah... Ben hasn't looked good since the divorce from BA.

Wallace... sure we miss him, the guy was a beast at stretching the field. However, do you remember how Mike looked in our offense last year? It wasn't that special. We have bigger problems and it has nothing to do with talent. I thought Wheaton had decent speed. Is it really that hard to put him on the field for some go routes? Is it really that hard to put Moyer on the field on a few more plays if we are going to run fades?

Running game... yuck. But I got the feeling Jones was getting ready to pop a few after the first series and after he made a few guys miss for a first down we benched him. Can't have guys running "around" defenders for positive yards because it hurts Redman's feeling. Sorry Redman.. I was your biggest fan but you look like trash.

Paulson.. can't block but he can catch... nor can he grab a ball that is right in front of him when it was obvious it "could" have been a fumble. The look on his face on the sidelines after the fumble? Didn't look like he cared one bit.

..and the substitution after the fumble instead of a quick snap. Steeler fans.. .this is your OC and this is your future. Mr Haley is clueless... completely clueless.

[RussBII]

I think we all undervalued Mike Wallace. I still don't think the Steelers EVER give him 13m a year though. So it's kind of moot.

Also, with this line, would Wallace ever have time to get deep? I say we move Wheaton to #3 and use him to stretch.

[Oviedo]

I think we all undervalued Mike Wallace. I still don't think the Steelers EVER give him 13m a year though. So it's kind of moot.

Also, with this line, would Wallace ever have time to get deep? I say we move Wheaton to #3 and use him to stretch.

Signing Wallace would had been a waste because the OL doesn't provide enough time fo him to get open deep. Letting Wallace go was the right decision given that our cap is so totally screwed up it will take 2-3 years to fix it.

[feltdizz]

I think we all undervalued Mike Wallace. I still don't think the Steelers EVER give him 13m a year though. So it's kind of moot.

Also, with this line, would Wallace ever have time to get deep? I say we move Wheaton to #3 and use him to stretch.

yes Wallace would have time to go deep.. and so would Wheaton if we gave him a shot. No reason to pay 13 mill for a WR to run go routes...

[papillon]

I think we all undervalued Mike Wallace. I still don't think the Steelers EVER give him 13m a year though. So it's kind of moot.

Also, with this line, would Wallace ever have time to get deep? I say we move Wheaton to #3 and use him to stretch.

I thought for the most part that a quarterback of Ben's caliber had enough time last night to make plays. The problem was Ben's accuracy was off for most of the night. Ben missed some easy throws for him, IMO.

Pappy

[Ghost]

The offense is abysmal. Retched. Can't run. Not blocking well. WR's dont' get open. Refuse to use Wheaton. The drop between Miller and the other TEs is like falling off Everest. Ben missed numerous times when he he had time. Play calling was not good (I've tried to support Coach Haley but getting hard to continue to do so). Out of sync in every area.

The D shows flashes but I'm not going to absolve them from playing a part in this loss. No turnovers (yet again). No sacks (been terrible over 2 games so far). Allowed 127 yards of rushing. Cincy had a 14 play, 7 minute drive. After the BS tripping call the Steelers need the D to toughen and get the ball back - instead it folded like a cheap tent, finishing with a 27 yard TD by a rookie who was untouched. A 61 yard pass play to another rookie who was completely uncovered. Much like last week, the opposing QB did as much to stop the progress as the D. Dalton was not accurate for most of the game. Cutler, Flacco, Brady, Stafford, Rodgers are going to carve them up.

After the last 2 games and looking at the schedule, I'm not seeing how they win more than 3-5.

[Shoe]

2) Heyward was playing very well last night. He is a guy who is starting to flash. Shoot, even Ziggy was playing with a little attitude last night.

Don't say that. I heard the same thing in Hood's first of second year, when he basically lucked into a sack or two. Heyward (last night) looked like he did much the same thing. He didn't impress me last night. He certainly didn't create pile up at the LOS that wrecked CINs running game.

[Slapstick]

I thought for the most part that a quarterback of Ben's caliber had enough time last night to make plays. The problem was Ben's accuracy was off for most of the night. Ben missed some easy throws for him, IMO.

Pappy

This is, unfortunately, very true...

[Slapstick]

Don't say that. I heard the same thing in Hood's first of second year, when he basically lucked into a sack or two. Heyward (last night) looked like he did much the same thing. He didn't impress me last night. He certainly didn't create pile up at the LOS that wrecked CINs running game.

He played on mostly passing downs...

[SteelerOfDeVille]

1) The coaching. I have been a Tomlin fan, and a Haley fan...but no longer. I watched Haley split out Redman in 5 wide instead of Wheaton. Wha? The fact that Tomlin allows this nonsense to go on...unbelieveable. I could go through a list of poor calls, but what use would that serve?
Welcome aboard, we've been waiting for ya...

It's amazing to me that the only time they moved the ball was when they went to hurry up - and moved it well. End of 1st half, leading to score and end of game when trailing by 10 (although it resulted in a pick)... It's obvious that this team has the talent offensively, even with the bad line, BUT, Haley is a moron. I've argued that all offseason, despite "Ben's great start last year"... again, welcome aboard!

[SteelerOfDeVille]

I thought for the most part that a quarterback of Ben's caliber had enough time last night to make plays. The problem was Ben's accuracy was off for most of the night. Ben missed some easy throws for him, IMO.

Pappy
I wondered if he and the WRs were reading different stuff - but, he did just flat out miss on a few... wasn't sure if was frustration, jitters/discomfort due to earlier pressure or simply just plain ole missing

[papillon]

I wondered if he and the WRs were reading different stuff - but, he did just flat out miss on a few... wasn't sure if was frustration, jitters/discomfort due to earlier pressure or simply just plain ole missing

I don't think it was discomfort in the pocket and I only say that because I've never really see Ben get that rattled by pressure. There have been games where the pressure had an effect on him, but for the most part he doesn't get jittery over pressure. I'm going with frustration and an off night combination. He had to be wondering what was going on after the first three plays of the game. A third and 8 draw play after two failed running attempts, ole Todd caught them off guard with that call. ;)

Pappy

[JB13]

1) The coaching. I have been a Tomlin fan, and a Haley fan...but no longer. I watched Haley split out Redman in 5 wide instead of Wheaton. Wha? The fact that Tomlin allows this nonsense to go on...unbelieveable. I could go through a list of poor calls, but what use would that serve?


I believe it's because Tomlin isn't a very good coach. He walked into a solid, strong team and got lucky. Now that he's on his own, where are the results?

[Slapstick]

I believe it's because Tomlin isn't a very good coach. He walked into a solid, strong team and got lucky. Now that he's on his own, where are the results?

A solid, strong 8-8 team...:rolleyes:

[JB13]

A solid, strong 8-8 team...:rolleyes:

But one that had double-digit wins in four of the previous five years and won the Super Bowl the year prior. :-)

[Slapstick]

But one that had double-digit wins in four of the previous five years and won the Super Bowl the year prior. :-)

Before last year, Tomlin had double digit wins in 4 of five years and two SB appearances (one win)...

Just as Tomlin's previous record means precisely nothing (He's never coached an 0-2 team before) Cowher's previous record means the same...

In 2002, the Steelers rallied from 0-2 to make the playoffs...once players start coming back from injury and new starters get acclimated, we'll see what happens...

[Discipline of Steel]

I'm going with frustration and an off night combination. He had to be wondering what was going on after the first three plays of the game. A third and 8 draw play after two failed running attempts, ole Todd caught them off guard with that call. ;)

Pappy

I think there might be something to that. If he is busy wondering "what the hell play did he call this time", his head is not into executing the called play. Based on how he has done, it could very well be that Ben does not fully sanction the preferred playlist, therefore he doesn't have that emotional component when he executes.

[Dee Dub]

.....
Wallace... sure we miss him, the guy was a beast at stretching the field. However, do you remember how Mike looked in our offense last year? It wasn't that special. We have bigger problems and it has nothing to do with talent. I thought Wheaton had decent speed. Is it really that hard to put him on the field for some go routes? Is it really that hard to put Moyer on the field on a few more plays if we are going to run fades?



64 receptions and 8 TD's in a dink and dunk offense is a lot better than what they will get out of Brown or Sanders.

[Dee Dub]

Signing Wallace would had been a waste because the OL doesn't provide enough time fo him to get open deep. Letting Wallace go was the right decision given that our cap is so totally screwed up it will take 2-3 years to fix it.

They had enough time to throw it deep to Brown and Sanders a few times last night. But those two can't get separation.

I think many Steelers fans forget how many slants and bubble screens Wallace caught and turned into big plays.

[Captain Lemming]

They made Wallace a fair offer. He basically hit the market over $2 million dollars.

I don't get what they see in Manny. Never have.

Gotta agree with that one

[D Rock]

I think Wallace was great at what he did. He was a great WR in the Arians offense. Unfortunately, the Steelers have committed to this Todd Haley style offense, and that means that any player with explosion in their game is now useless.

Wallace was not worth anything near what he got. Especially not to the Steelers running this offense.




I have also never seen Ben that 'off' that I can remember. His throws weren't even remotely catchable last night. Ben is also great, but we need to accept the fact that he isn't very good at playing within any true 'system' and that he is a huge liability to get hurt. If there is a chance to take a top QB in an upcoming draft (1st round QB that is), I sure as heck hope they do it and trade Ben while he still has some value. I absolutely do NOT want to see the Steelers re-sign Ben for the type of absurd money that QBs are getting these days. Too many other holes - it will sink the team for the next 4 to 6 years if they give Ben big money.

[D Rock]

Then bench him now. Keep him healthy and send him on his way. NO point in playing him.

Ben plays well in systems. But what they did, because Dick LeBeau is infallable, is take the minute amount of improvising Ben did and took it away from him.

Sheer brilliance!

I would love to see improvisational Ben Roethlisberger back and on top of his game. It aint gonna happen this year though- the team has made their conservative offense bed and now must lay in it. That leaves Ben at 32 years old, and making 17+ million against the cap for the next two years. And then probably 20+ million per after that. Not worth it, not for an older QB who plays and has played the way Ben has.

the Roethlisberger era was a great one in Pittsburgh, but I fear it has come to an end. Might as well get what we can out of it and start fresh if the opportunity presents itself.

[Chadman]

Chadman wades in..

The Good:

1. The OL. Yes, the OL. Go back & watch them. They were against the 2nd best D in the NFL & gave Ben all sorts of time in the backfield to throw the ball. Both Gilbert & Adams contained the outside rush & Valasco looks above average. Would like to see him play LG next season. That said, the run blocking is in need of work. But Chadman does not blame all the running woes on the OL, it's a shared responsibility- the RB's need to know what holes to hit too.

2. The Defense. Despite the Offenses struggles in 2 weeks, the D has put this team in winnable positions for the most part of the 2 games. There's a nice mix of young guys getting gametime.

3. Jarvis Jones. Being slightly more individualist, Chadman wants to point out that Jones looks like he belongs. He's a swim move & a club move away from multiple sack seasons. If he can disengage from the LT just a little quicker, QB's will learn to fear him soon.

4. Cam Heyward. He's coming along this season, closing the pocket when playing. He needs more gametime.

5. Ike Taylor. Just Ike. His play on AJ Green was excellent.

6. Vince Williams. Got caught out a couple of times (shared blame- we'll get to that in a bit), but played aggressively & showed some desire. He could make that spot his.

7. Felix Jones. He's the speed RB this team needs. If we could get him the ball in space...



The Bad:

1. The WR's. Chadman knows that some posters on here don't like Chadman's take on Wallace vs Brown. This isn't Wallace vs Brown. This is the lack of a go-to WR. Ben needs an AJ Green. Before the game started we heard the often trotted out comment that AJ Green, even when covered, is open. We've heard that for Randy Moss, Jerry Rice, Brandon Marshall, Colston, Terrell Owens, etc, etc. You don't hear it for ANY of the current Steelers, and that's because when they are covered, well...they are covered. Brown, Sanders, Cotchery... none of these guys are 'throw it to them regardless of the coverage' guys. They are not Hines Ward. They are not Plaxico Burress. What we get, as a result, is Ben running around, buying time, trying to help these guys break open. And as we know, that means Ben gets sacked. The Steelers lose ground. They go backwards. First order of business next season- get a go-to WR. Heath's return might help.

2. The RB's (not named Felix Jones). They hit the hole slowly, they are indecisive & can't find the running lanes. Other than that...they have poor conditioning & handling. LeVeon Bell has a lot of weight on his shoulders.

3. Steve McLendon. Chadman doesn't see it. He can't figure out the love for this guy. He's supposed to be a great line penetrator, but so far Cam Heyward has looked far more dangerous. He gets moved, pushed, redirected away from the RB's. Every hole that Bernard or Green-Ellis hit yesterday was where McLendon was moved out of. He can't hold the gap. He's not a 3-4 NT. His inability to hold the line means that Timmons & now Vince Williams are getting caught in the trash around the blocking. Fangupo or Woods would be better options right now.

4. Ramon Foster- this is nit picking, but he's a terrible pulling OG. He runs to where he's supposed to be & plays tippy tappy with whoever is around the hole. Go blow someone up Foster. Next season, Velasco should be signed to play LG. Foster would be a good back-up option.

5. Jerricho Cotchery. Yeah, we've brought up the WR's already, but Cotch needs his own line. Dropped passes & short arms all day. This team needs it leaders to STAND UP. Cotchery apparently is valuable for his 'verteran leadership', yet of all the culprits, he was the worst. There were 3-4 plays left on the field that Cotch could have made. That's 3-4 more 1st downs. More field position. More time with the ball.


The Undecided:

Coaching & Scouting. Who is to blame for this? All of them? Or do you just target one or two culprits? The team, the squad, needs a more defined direction to move in. They don't have the players to match the system they want to play, or they don't have the system to match the players they have- you choose your own version of it. Either the team needs to change the system, or the team needs to change the players. More direction required.

[Shawn]

Some terrific insights Chadman. I will say though I seen McClendon get terrific penetration against Tenn. I wholeheartedly agree with the Heyward assessment. He is going to be a force.

[papillon]

I would love to see improvisational Ben Roethlisberger back and on top of his game. It aint gonna happen this year though- the team has made their conservative offense bed and now must lay in it. That leaves Ben at 32 years old, and making 17+ million against the cap for the next two years. And then probably 20+ million per after that. Not worth it, not for an older QB who plays and has played the way Ben has.

the Roethlisberger era was a great one in Pittsburgh, but I fear it has come to an end. Might as well get what we can out of it and start fresh if the opportunity presents itself.

Personally, at this point in his career Ben should change plays if he doesn't like what was sent in by Haley. Ben has more cache on this team than Haley and if the Steeler management takes issue with that, then, unfortunately, I have to agree with Crash and let Ben finish his career elsewhere.

A perfect example was the 3rd and 8 draw in the first series, Ben should heard that play and thought to himself, who's on the field and what play can I call to gain 8 F**king yards, screw Haley.

I have never scrutinized play calling for the Steelers, ever, regardless of who was OC until now, Haley is as egotistical as he is inept and the sooner he is removed the better this team will be. He probably believes he is beyond reproach because of his father.

Pappy

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Haley is as egotistical as he is inept and the sooner he is removed the better this team will be. He probably believes he is beyond reproach because of his father.
The sad part about it is we're on the tail end of a window with Ben at QB and BLOWING IT!! When you have a super bowl quality QB, you take advantage while you have it - we all know how long it took to get another one. 4-5 years tops with this guy... I'd like to see 2 more trips to the SB with him...

[papillon]

The sad part about it is we're on the tail end of a window with Ben at QB and BLOWING IT!! When you have a super bowl quality QB, you take advantage while you have it - we all know how long it took to get another one. 4-5 years tops with this guy... I'd like to see 2 more trips to the SB with him...

As the roster and coaching staffs stand right now and the front office continues to meddle, the Steelers may be fortunate to make it to the playoffs, let alone the Super Bowl in the next 4-5 years and Ben will be done. He isn't performing like Peyton into his late 30s, his body will not endure the pounding at that advanced football age.

Pappy

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

64 receptions and 8 TD's in a dink and dunk offense is a lot better than what they will get out of Brown or Sanders.

You can't just get caught up in the numbers on Wallace. Of course he made his share of game breaking plays, but there were as many back breaking moments. There were those times (often) when he would make absolutely zero effort on a ball if it was not right in his hands. Where he would not fight for the ball if there was any traffic. When you see your number one guy doing that it trickles down to the rest of them. The same way that if your defensive leader keeps getting flagged on boneheaded 15 yarders, soon the rest of the D feel like they can too.

At some point in the 2011 season, Wallace lost his heart for playing in Pittsburgh. He still had the speed, and that can do a lot, but without heart you don't get as much as you should out of him, and you also get your share of negatives.

[Chadman]

You can't just get caught up in the numbers on Wallace. Of course he made his share of game breaking plays, but there were as many back breaking moments. There were those times (often) when he would make absolutely zero effort on a ball if it was not right in his hands. Where he would not fight for the ball if there was any traffic. When you see your number one guy doing that it trickles down to the rest of them. The same way that if your defensive leader keeps getting flagged on boneheaded 15 yarders, soon the rest of the D feel like they can too.

At some point in the 2011 season, Wallace lost his heart for playing in Pittsburgh. He still had the speed, and that can do a lot, but without heart you don't get as much as you should out of him, and you also get your share of negatives.

Not arguing that 2012 Wallace was good. He was a significant downgrade from 2011 Wallace.

The problem is how that situation arose. The Steelers could have kept him happy, and would likely have had a much different version of 2012 Wallace as a result. And likely, a 2013,14,15...