Never draft defensive ends in the first!!!

[Captain Lemming]

We SHOULD NEVER PICK A DEFENSIVE END IN THE FIRST ROUND for our defense.
Ziggy and Heyward are not good values, period.
Even if they turn out to be fine starters, those picks should have gone elsewhere.

I hear all the time how "our Dline is the key to our defense."

NOT TRUE. Never WAS true.

Our great talent in the front 7 needs to be with LINEBACKERS not the line.

"We need great Dlinemen to "free up the Linebackers".
Truth. Yes, our Dlinemen "free up" our linebackers. You DO NOT need "Great" Dlinemen to do that.

Here is some knowledge to back up my claim:
Casey Hampton....How valuable was he? Fact: our team was statistically BETTER when Hoke played. Our team was 17-1 in games Hoke started. It is the cool thing for "enlightened fans to point to Casey as some kind of key cog but he was replaced capably by a noname with no ill effects whatsoever.

ONE PLAYER PLAYED ABOVE EXPECTATIONS last week- McClendon, a mere free agent. I see no difference between him and Casey in his prime. McClendon is quicker faster and more athletic. Perhaps Casey was "harder to move". Yabba the Hut would be hard to move but Jabba cant make plays. You watch McClendon will be "better" than 1st rounder Casey EVER was when all is said and done.

Aaron Smith was our best defensive lineman. Why? Not because he was so great at "freeing up lineman" but because HE MADE MORE PLAYS than most defensive ends in our defense. But he can never truly dominate because our scheme does not allow it.

"Well he was key in freeing up linebackers who made plays".

Really? For most of his career Smith lined up next to the lesser of the two outside linebackers. Joey Porter and Clark Haggins? Smith was on Haggins side, while Porter was next to Kimo then Beard. DPOY James Harrison? Smith was on the left, Harrison was on the right next to the Beard. The Steelers best run defense of Smiths career was the season he missed 10 games. We had the leagues number one defense and allowed 3.0 yards a carry went to the Superbowl. Woodley after the injury to Smith had three 2 sack games in the regular season and a sack in all three playoff games with Ziggy in place of Smith.

Smiths absence had ZERO effect on Woodleys game.

You ask, "Well what happened to Woodley since then"? 2011 with Ziggy, Woodley had 9 sacks in his first 8 games. He was on a career high pace averaging more than a sack a game. He was on pace for Harrisons team record, when he got injured. Injuries, and being out of shape have plagued him since. He played the best ball of his career next to the scrub Ziggy.

If the linebacker is a great talent he DOES NOT need great talent on the line to free him up. It is a lie.

We need not EVER use premium draft picks on the Dline (OK if it is a RARE talent we could put at NT like Ngata sure, but that is rare)

I could EASILY see the following Dline being FINE once Keisel is gone:

McClendon/ Fangupo/ Woods. (Did you see what Woods did in preseason?)

Our Dline would in fact be STRONGER physically albeit less athletic perhaps than one featuring our first rounders Hood and Heyward.

ALL free agents. Cost NO draft picks.

Considering the fourth rounder we had in Taamu I see no need to have used ANY premium draft pick on the line.

Think people, where were the following players taken?

Smith? Keisel? Kimo? Hoke? Travis Kirschke? Nick Eason? NONE was a premium pick!!!!!

Casey at nose was the only one.

We will never know what we might have gotten had we not WASTED picks on defensive ends.

I really dont think they give us ANYTHING their free agent backups cant do just as well if not better.

[Chadman]

Hmmm.... trying to think of a way of answering this without getting snipey...

When the Steelers drafted Keisel, Smith, signed KVO, Kirschke (are we really adding Kirschke to this list?), Steed, Seals etc...the 3-4 Defense was a rarity. These players were poor fits for a 4-3, hence their value on draft day was diminished.

Hampton was selected in the 1st round, and went on to be the centrepiece in one of the more dominating DL's in recent history. To say he was a wasted pick is rather dismissive.

Using Woodley's numbers in the year of Smith's injury/ best run defense in football argument is flawed in the 'don't draft 1st Round DL's' argument because the guy that replaced Smith was...1st round pick Ziggy Hood.

McLendon has started the sum total of what? 5 games? If that. And you've already stated he's 'as good as Hampton in his prime'. Maybe you're right, but chances are, you've just sold Hampton way too short.

To say that you don't draft DL early is because examples like Hoke, McLendon & Keisel are easily found later in the draft is about as accurate as saying never draft a WR before round 4 because Hines Ward was great. Or don't draft LB's early because Porter, Haggans, Foote, Lloyd & Kirkland were 3rd round or later picks.

It's great that we have some success with late round, or undrafted players- but to assume that some success in those types of player can mean never having to invest high in a certain position is very judgemental.

After all, Willie Parker was very successful, therefore all RB's should be UDFA's..

[pittpete]

ILB's get the majority of the tackles in the 3-4 just in case you didn't know this.

[Captain Lemming]

ILB's get the majority of the tackles in the 3-4 just in case you didn't know this.

Number one rush defense of Smiths career was when he missed 10 games.
17-1 and statistically better when Hoke replaced Casey.
Hoke was by no means better than Casey.
My point is that one would think our defense hinged on his play. It did not.

[focosteeler]

I would say look at those 2 drafts. Hood and Heyward they were most likely BPA

[Shoe]

I think it is extremely legitimate to say "don't draft DEs at the end of the first round". In terms of D-linemen, there is a premium. Those D-linemen with a lot of physical ability, tend to become off the board in the early half of the round. To say that, if we were drafting around #10 when that juicer JJ Watt came out, that we shouldn't take him... is silly. Likewise, in the Cam Heyward draft, Cam Jordan was a much earlier selection. I don't follow him or the Saints, but I'm going to guess that he has a lot more upside to date.

[Captain Lemming]

Hmmm.... trying to think of a way of answering this without getting snipey...

No problem if you did. I got thick skin and dont take this stuff personally.


When the Steelers drafted Keisel, Smith, signed KVO, Kirschke (are we really adding Kirschke to this list?), Steed, Seals etc...the 3-4 Defense was a rarity. These players were poor fits for a 4-3, hence their value on draft day was diminished.

Long and leaner than typical for the position Smith AND Keisel were not projected to be 3/4 defensive ends. They were almost exactly the same height and weight as Ziggy Anzah (within about 5 pounds). In fact the 4/3 Broncos promised Smith they would draft him. They picked a defensive end in round 5 so would have if we did not take him.



Hampton was selected in the 1st round, and went on to be the centrepiece in one of the more dominating DL's in recent history. To say he was a wasted pick is rather dismissive.

He was not a waste at all. He was a fine player for many years and did his job well. His value IS overrated though when it is implied that he is the unheralded centerpiece of our defense, without whom the productive players could not have success. 17-1 with him out tells the story.


Using Woodley's numbers in the year of Smith's injury/ best run defense in football argument is flawed in the 'don't draft 1st Round DL's' argument because the guy that replaced Smith was...1st round pick Ziggy Hood.

And NOBODY likes how he plays. He gets DOMINATED at the LOS. DID NOT HURT WOODLEY ONE BIT.


McLendon has started the sum total of what? 5 games? If that. And you've already stated he's 'as good as Hampton in his prime'. Maybe you're right, but chances are, you've just sold Hampton way too short.

Just a prediction.


To say that you don't draft DL early is because examples like are easily found later in the draft is about as accurate as saying never draft a WR before round 4 because Hines Ward was great. Or don't draft LB's early because Porter, Haggans, Foote, Lloyd & Kirkland were 3rd round or later picks.

The difference is that we can and DO get away with LESS at defensive end in particular. There is a difference between great talent that is missed (Tom Brady) and MOST of our defensive linemen. You mention Foote and Haggins. Those are great examples. All we EVER NEED at defensive end is THAT level talent. All we need is solid.

This gets back to how we use the pick.

Given a choice between Smith or Casey (best DE and NT) and ANY top Steeler at ANY other defensive position, I will NEVER go Dline. Not on OUR defense.


It's great that we have some success with late round, or undrafted players- but to assume that some success in those types of player can mean never having to invest high in a certain position is very judgemental.

I am not saying that we can always get great defensive line talent in the draft. What I am saying is that we DO NOT NEED 1st round talent to do what we ask our linemen to do.

We draft guys late, they are fine in OUR system they make few plays because our system does not call our for it and we feel like we got a steal.

That is different than getting a future DPOY as a free agent. THAT is a steal. :)

[Captain Lemming]

I would say look at those 2 drafts. Hood and Heyward they were most likely BPA

Both productive playmakers in college, perhaps. If their job one was to "beat" the guy in front of them maybe it would matter.

There are STRONGER players that can be had later who can "occupy blockers" with even GREATER effectiveness.

note as Ziggy describes his skills:

http://www.nflrush.com/video/336

[Captain Lemming]

I think it is extremely legitimate to say "don't draft DEs at the end of the first round". In terms of D-linemen, there is a premium. Those D-linemen with a lot of physical ability, tend to become off the board in the early half of the round. To say that, if we were drafting around #10 when that juicer JJ Watt came out, that we shouldn't take him... is silly. Likewise, in the Cam Heyward draft, Cam Jordan was a much earlier selection. I don't follow him or the Saints, but I'm going to guess that he has a lot more upside to date.

I would agree ABSOLUTELY no argument from me on that one.

Watt is SUCH A FREAKISH talent that YOU MUST change your defense to accommodate his abilities. Even in the 3/4 his primary job from the start is to attack just like a 4/3 lineman. If you are going to use your linemen as WE DO his playmaking ability would be limited by the scheme.

If is is a late first round pick? Not a freak of nature? Drafting Dline is a waste of a pick.

[Slapstick]

2 Things:

1) Focosteeler is exactly right.

2) In how many of Hoke's starts did Polamalu also play?

[BURGH86STEEL]

Only players that should be off limits in the first round of the draft are kickers and punters. I'm glad the fans don't run this team.

[phillyesq]

Generally, I would lean against drafting a 3-4 DE in the first round. However, look at the second rounds of the Ziggy Hood and Cam Heyward drafts. The Steelers did not pass up a ton of premium talent for these guys. Ras-I Dowling was one of the players selected just after Heyward.

The team would have been better off taking Max Unger over Ziggy Hood, but that is a pure hindsight call.

If Cam Heyward or Ziggy Hood were playing at the Aaron Smith level, I don't think anybody would complain about using a first rounder on them, particularly a late first rounder. The issue is that Ziggy is not even up to the KVO level and Heyward is still unknown, but has not produced much in 2 years (I think Heyward will end up ok).

As for the argument about UDFAs, sure, McClendon is playing well at NT (well, for one game, at least). Clark plays well at safety. James Harrison was great at OLB. Willie Parker. Nate Washington. You can make the argument about almost any position.

[feltdizz]

I agree with this but it damn sure isn't because of that crazy Hoke stat. 17-1 has nothing to do with Hoke being on the field. ...


IMO there it's stupid to waste a 1st round pick on a DE who's primary role is to occupy 2 blockers. I think you can find that guy in the 3rd round.

[Ghost]

2 Things:

1) Focosteeler is exactly right.

2) In how many of Hoke's starts did Polamalu also play?


Hindsight is always 20/20 but in 2009, Laurinaitus out of OSU was a much better player and prospect than Hood. Three time All-American. There's NO way Hood was the BPA left on the board when drafted. Steelers obviously felt they didn't need an LB but man he'd look good in Black and Gold.

[phillyesq]

Hindsight is always 20/20 but in 2009, Laurinaitus out of OSU was a much better player and prospect than Hood. Three time All-American. There's NO way Hood was the BPA left on the board when drafted. Steelers obviously felt they didn't need an LB but man he'd look good in Black and Gold.

Laurinitis, Max Unger or McCoy (was never going to happen with Mendenhall picked the year before) were some of the guys left on the board when Ziggy was drafted. But there were also guys like Robiskie, Ron Brace or Darius Butler who are out of the league or close to it.

[NJ-STEELER]

You are right.

I questioned the ziggy pick from the beginning and hated the heyward pick. And now it's biting us in the ass on the offensive side of the ball

The DL are not the playmakers of the defensive scheme we run. We get as much value from the woods, easons, kriskes of the football world.

If they ever move to a 4-3. Then fine, take as many DL high as you want

[NJ-STEELER]

Taking unger to replace a below average hartwig should have been a no brainer instead they

Chose to pick an out of position DL to back up for a couple of years to a defense that just bad one of the best years ever and was near the top in the league for years.

Had they done that. Then in pounceys draft year we have dez or damarius Thomas to pick from. What would the offense look like with one of those guys??

[flippy]

I do think the DLine is the key to the Steelers D. And the proof is in the pressure on the QB and the turnovers which have gone out the window for the Steelers since Casey and Aaron were in their prime.

The value in a guy like Casey was being able to collapse and move the pocket in any direction we wanted on any play. With Casey in there, there was never room for a QB to step up in the pocket to bide more time to make a play downfield. It gave the outside rushers better angles to the QB deep in the pocket. And forced the opposing QB to be a little less comfortable without the safety of the pocket. This leads to more pressure, more sacks, bad decisions, more turnovers, etc.

Same for Aaron who imho was the best 3-4 DE in the history of the game. These 2 completely eliminated the pocket. Took away a QB's safety and time to make plays. It created mistakes that we don't see happening for the current Steelers D. Plus to have a chance against these guys, opponents had to double both of these guys if they had any hope of protecting the pocket. It was always 3-4 guys on offense committed to 2 Steelers defenders. That means we're effectively playing 9 on 8 or 9 on 7 which is an advantage to us every time. There really isn't a guy on the current line that commands a double. Every one of our guys up front typically gets a 1 on 1 matchup. We don't collapse the pocket. And it shows in the QB pressure/hurries, offensive mistakes, and turnovers.

Heck even Lebeau has changed the system to allow the DLinemen to go after the QB. He's effectively acknowledging that we can't collapse the pocket and create pressure and force mistakes like we used to. And we need these guys up front to play differently and get after the QB because they don't have the skillset of Casey/Aaron.

Now back to the point of drafting 3-4 DEs in round 1. I'm against that as well. It's a tough transition for guys to play 3-4 DE and I'd rather see #1 picks that are can't miss prospects that can come in and contribute on day 1. It's a position where I don't think a first rounder has a huge advantage over a day 2, 3, or UDFA guy. I also wouldn't shy away from a special player and do think you have to take the most special player on the board regardless of position. Even in this past draft, if Star dropped past Carolina and both he and Jarvis were available when we picked, I woulda probably went with Star.

I'll give you that the value of the DLine is hard to quantify. Individual results don't exactly correlate to the play of the guys up front. But when you look at the big picture, the QB pressure, hurries, and turnovers disappear without great Dlinemen in our system.

[flippy]

I should have added, I do think we might have the next Casey and Aaron on the roster and PS in Fangupo and Arnfelt. And that could help support the argument that UDFAs are the way to go.

[Captain Lemming]

2 Things:

1) Focosteeler is exactly right.

2) In how many of Hoke's starts did Polamalu also play?

Slappy in your "counter" you inadvertently are making my case.
TROY is a PLAYMAKER in our defense
TROY IS a difference maker in our defense
TROYS presence directly impacts wins and loses in our defense
Our defense suffers when Troy is out.

I can quote ad nauseam, the idea that the effectiveness of THE ENTIRE DEFENSE stems from the talent of our defensive line. The linebackers get the glory but we need great DEFENSIVE LINEMEN to enable them. It does not. Farrior DID NOT need Casey to be a tackle machine. He did it with Hoke and his career high for tackles WAS AS A JET.

Judge our defensive linemen on what THEY DO not the team in general.

The difference between Smith in his prime and Ziggy is that Smith can make 50 or 60 tackles in a season. Give Smith THAT credit, not credit for what a probowl linebacker does cause THAT skill aint rare.

[Slapstick]

Slappy in your "counter" you inadvertently are making my case.
TROY is a PLAYMAKER in our defense
TROY IS a difference maker in our defense
TROYS presence directly impacts wins and loses in our defense
Our defense suffers when Troy is out.

I can quote ad nauseam, the idea that the effectiveness of THE ENTIRE DEFENSE stems from the talent of our defensive line. The linebackers get the glory but we need great DEFENSIVE LINEMEN to enable them. It does not. Farrior DID NOT need Casey to be a tackle machine. He did it with Hoke and his career high for tackles WAS AS A JET.

Judge our defensive linemen on what THEY DO not the team in general.

The difference between Smith in his prime and Ziggy is that Smith can make 50 or 60 tackles in a season. Give Smith THAT credit, not credit for what a probowl linebacker does cause THAT skill aint rare.

I wasn't "countering" your case...I simply questioned the validity of the "evidence"...aka, the Steelers' 17-1 record with Hoke at the nose...

I could just as easily have asked how many games Ben played...

Now, given the argument, one could make the case for not drafting DEs in round one...personally, I would choose BPA, regardless of position (except K and P...or LS)...what LeBeau is rumored to be doing this year is allowing the DEs to get upfield, which is fine...which is probably what they should do...

[Captain Lemming]

I do think the DLine is the key to the Steelers D. And the proof is in the pressure on the QB and the turnovers which have gone out the window for the Steelers since Casey and Aaron were in their prime.

And the fact that our two sack leaders plus Troy have been dealing with injuries the past few seasons had no impact? Really Flippy? :)
I will break it down below using examples when the linebackers were healthy but the lineman was out.


The value in a guy like Casey was being able to collapse and move the pocket in any direction we wanted on any play. With Casey in there, there was never room for a QB to step up in the pocket to bide more time to make a play downfield. It gave the outside rushers better angles to the QB deep in the pocket. And forced the opposing QB to be a little less comfortable without the safety of the pocket. This leads to more pressure, more sacks, bad decisions, more turnovers, etc.

I understand the "THEORY". I really do. Here is some REALITY.

2010 Casey misses 10 games.
Hoke is a ROOKIE that year.

During that 10 game run we:
Go underfeated.
Beat BOTH superbowl participants in the process
Create turnovers in 9 of the 10 games
Create 3 or more turnovers in 4 of those games
3 or more sacks in most of those games.
Single digits allowed in 4 of the 10 games

Season team results with Casey our a majority of the season?

Leagues number 1 defense in yardage AND scoring
Steelers all time best regular season record
Farriors ONLY career AllPro season....Plays the middle MOST impacted by the nose. Farrior razzes Casey about Hoke getting him that award.
Smiths ONLY career Probowl- (One would think the constant double team Casey reputedly requires would make it HARDER for Smith to achieve w/o Casey)


Same for Aaron who imho was the best 3-4 DE in the history of the game.

That would be J.J. Watt. It aint close.

I already made the point that by your logic Kimo is better than Smith, since the guy on HIS side was more productive than Haggins.

How is Woodley (who played next to Smith) REALLY impacted when Smith is gone? You cant look at the post injury Woodley.
What did Woodley do minus Smith pre-injury?
In the 16 weeks prior to his getting hurt spanning parts of 2010 that playoff and 2011, ALL GAMES Smith missed, WOODLEY AVERAGED NEARLY A SACK A GAME over 16 games (15 sacks).
He had 9 sacks in his 8 games in 2011 prior to injury. That was a STEELER RECORD PACE.

When Woodley was HEALTHY and NOT overweight he played some of his CAREER BEST FOOTBALL without Smith in the lineup.

BTW the 2010 team played 13 (including the playoff) with Ziggy:
We WENT TO THE SUPPERBOWL
Had not one but TWO DPOY candidates, one won
We had the number one defense in the league
We averaged over two turnovers a game during the games Smith was out
We had 48 sacks and created 35 total turnovers for the regular season

Our defense was FINE (number one) a sack and turnover machine when we had healthy elite linebackers without Casey (2004)
Our defense was FINE (number one) a sack and turnover machine when we had healthy elite linebackers without Smith (2010)

Last season we did not have healthy elite linebackers.

[feltdizz]

hold up.. Hoke played 10 games during 2004 season? LOL... no wonder the 17-1 stat keeps getting thrown out. I seriously doubt his starts were the reason we had that record.

[Captain Lemming]

hold up.. Hoke played 10 games during 2004 season? LOL... no wonder the 17-1 stat keeps getting thrown out. I seriously doubt his starts were the reason we had that record.

I AGREE Dizz.
My point is the exact opposite.
Hokes record shows that who the NT is matters far less than people think.

BTW in the one loss, in Oakland in 2006, the Steelers allowed only 98 total yards, but lost because of two interception returns for touchdowns (one for 100 yards).

Hoke SHOULD be undefeated. Not proof that he is better. But if a ROOKIE CAREER BACKUP can replace him with SO LITTLE measurable ill effect Casey sure aint the glue enabling everybody else to prosper like people say.

For example typical comment:
"Sure Casey does not make that many plays. But if it were not for Casey the other guys could not....."

Could not what?
This team was ABSOLUTELY FINE without him.

[flippy]

And the fact that our two sack leaders plus Troy have been dealing with injuries the past few seasons had no impact? Really Flippy? :)
I will break it down below using examples when the linebackers were healthy but the lineman was out.



I understand the "THEORY". I really do. Here is some REALITY.

2010 Casey misses 10 games.
Hoke is a ROOKIE that year.

During that 10 game run we:
Go underfeated.
Beat BOTH superbowl participants in the process
Create turnovers in 9 of the 10 games
Create 3 or more turnovers in 4 of those games
3 or more sacks in most of those games.
Single digits allowed in 4 of the 10 games

Season team results with Casey our a majority of the season?

Leagues number 1 defense in yardage AND scoring
Steelers all time best regular season record
Farriors ONLY career AllPro season....Plays the middle MOST impacted by the nose. Farrior razzes Casey about Hoke getting him that award.
Smiths ONLY career Probowl- (One would think the constant double team Casey reputedly requires would make it HARDER for Smith to achieve w/o Casey)



That would be J.J. Watt. It aint close.

I already made the point that by your logic Kimo is better than Smith, since the guy on HIS side was more productive than Haggins.

How is Woodley (who played next to Smith) REALLY impacted when Smith is gone? You cant look at the post injury Woodley.
What did Woodley do minus Smith pre-injury?
In the 16 weeks prior to his getting hurt spanning parts of 2010 that playoff and 2011, ALL GAMES Smith missed, WOODLEY AVERAGED NEARLY A SACK A GAME over 16 games (15 sacks).
He had 9 sacks in his 8 games in 2011 prior to injury. That was a STEELER RECORD PACE.

When Woodley was HEALTHY and NOT overweight he played some of his CAREER BEST FOOTBALL without Smith in the lineup.

BTW the 2010 team played 13 (including the playoff) with Ziggy:
We WENT TO THE SUPPERBOWL
Had not one but TWO DPOY candidates, one won
We had the number one defense in the league
We averaged over two turnovers a game during the games Smith was out
We had 48 sacks and created 35 total turnovers for the regular season

Our defense was FINE (number one) a sack and turnover machine when we had healthy elite linebackers without Casey (2004)
Our defense was FINE (number one) a sack and turnover machine when we had healthy elite linebackers without Smith (2010)

Last season we did not have healthy elite linebackers.

This is why I like you. You always dig up so many stats to support your arguments :)

I still think there's a lot of things that work together here. Absolutely, the skill players are the LBs in this system and it's designed for them to make the plays. So if we don't have healthy, productive LBs, nothing works. And if I was Colbert, I'd get my skill players early in the draft on both sides of the ball and fill in the big uglies on day 3 and via UDFAs unless there was a really special player on the board.

Re: Hoke, I think he was one of the most underrated Steelers in the history of the team. He probably should have left Pittsburgh and started somewhere else. He was big, quick, and strong as an ox. He played the nose a little different than Casey but was equally effective. While Casey controlled the pocket, Hoke controlled the gaps in the pocket. I'd contend he was just as effective as Casey. And if we didn't have Casey, we wouldn't have lost a beat with Hoke. I'm really glad Hoke's been working with McClendon. They've got a similar style. I think McClendon's a little quicker but not as strong. I'm still anxiously awaiting to see if his style works out. I think Dick has faith in the kid and has adjusted the system to his talent.

The other point I'd make is Aaron Smith was still on the field that season and I think he was the better player than Casey. I think it was Dick Lebeau that once said he's never seen Aaron Smith blocked on a play. He did everything the Steelers ask of their 3-4 DEs and more. Not only did he control the LOS, but he was the one guy on the front that made plays. So I don't see a big drop off in the unit when Casey was out. We still had an elite group. And I know JJ had 20 sacks last year, but let's get him past his 3rd year in the league before we let him surpass Smitty and Seymour. JJ is a freak, that I'll agree.

Re: Woodley, it was his 4th year in the league and he was becoming one of the best LBs in football. I see his stats being an overall reflection of the improvement in his game. And it's not like we had a big drop off in the line at that point. We were still very sound up front even without Smith. Plus we had Harrison on the other side of the field that commanded more attention because of his dominance.

I'm not sure it's entirely fair to judge the DL based on LB performance (positive or negative). And saying Kimo outplayed Aaron isn't a dis to Aaron. Even Dirt said Kimo was the toughest guy he ever had to block. In general, I'd make the point that we had the best 3-4 DLine in the league with depth between Aaron, Casey, Kimo, Keisel, and Hoke for years. Every one of those players was dominant. And that made our D work.

And I see it as the problem we have right now. We don't have dominant players up front. At least not yet. And it really started showing last season. Casey was dead weight and could barely move. He couldn't move and no one could move him. And I think that had a trickle down effect. Keisel was solid. Hood looked confused until about December when there was a uptick in his game. And I think it had a domino effect on the team. James, Troy, and Woodley being hurt didn't help. But we had some of the best play from our secondary since the days of Woodsen, Lake, Perry and that didn't even help these guys out.

As it stands today, I still don't see anyone on our line that worries anyone. Just some guys you can block one on one. And we have multiple free linemen to pick up almost every blitz Lebeau tries. And it seems like he doesn't even try to blitz because it doesn't work with our line. And I give him some credit to trying to adjust to what these guys can do up front. Let McClendon and Keisel loose to pressure the QB themselves.

I dunno how to quantify the value of these guys. I don't know what stats to pull up. I just notice QBs last year having so much room to step up in the pocket making it harder for our OLBs to get an angle to the QB. Every time DL blitzes, it looks like our opponent has 3 free linemen to pick up the blitzers always. I've seen this trend coming for 3 years even when the team was putting up stats. In general the pressure declined with Smitty's health and got worse as Hamp lost his game. Even when we were manufacturing sacks, our pressure was on the decline.

I think we have some guys with potential up front. And I think this D will play as good as those guys do.

[feltdizz]

I AGREE Dizz.
My point is the exact opposite.
Hokes record shows that who the NT is matters far less than people think.

BTW in the one loss, in Oakland in 2006, the Steelers allowed only 98 total yards, but lost because of two interception returns for touchdowns (one for 100 yards).

Hoke SHOULD be undefeated. Not proof that he is better. But if a ROOKIE CAREER BACKUP can replace him with SO LITTLE measurable ill effect Casey sure aint the glue enabling everybody else to prosper like people say.

For example typical comment:
"Sure Casey does not make that many plays. But if it were not for Casey the other guys could not....."

Could not what?
This team was ABSOLUTELY FINE without him.

Any NT who played for 10 years or so at a high level is OK in my book. I don't think you can plug anyone in and have success but if you have Harrison, Porter, Troy, Ike, Farrior, Smith, Van Olhoffen, Clark, etc... and Dick Lebeau calling the shots it definitely helps.


I'm not following the logic though... that's like pointing to Cedric, ARE and Hines and saying we could win another SB with a similar WR cast. I doubt it would happen...hell, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't happen again unless you had Bettis in the backfield, FWP, Faneca, Miller... etc.

Point being... one man isn't responsible for our success on the DL but it's crazy to suggest we could have done it without Casey. He was here for too long and was respected around the league for a reason.

If Hoke was all of that we would have cut Casey long ago... I think it's more of a coincidence that our record was that good with him than a result of his presence.

[flippy]

If Hoke was all of that we would have cut Casey long ago... I think it's more of a coincidence that our record was that good with him than a result of his presence.

The fact that the team paid a fortune to Casey and Aaron is a pretty good indicator of their value.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

When the Steelers drafted Keisel, Smith, signed KVO, Kirschke (are we really adding Kirschke to this list?), Steed, Seals etc...the 3-4 Defense was a rarity. These players were poor fits for a 4-3, hence their value on draft day was diminished.
All u needed right there... we could get those guys in later rounds because nobody else needed/wanted them.

Same goes for athletic, undersized DE's that we'd turn into OLBs... Look at the top of this past draft and it's pretty clear how different that's become... in the first 6 picks, there were 3 OT's and 3 DE/OLB hybrids (Dion Jordan, Ziggy Ansah, Barkevious Mingo) that some actually tied to the Steelers in mocks because of their obviousl fit in teh 3-4 defense. Fifteen years ago, the team would have gotten one of those guys in the 3rd (see Joey Porter) because other teams would have reservations about fit on their team.

[BURGH86STEEL]

All u needed right there... we could get those guys in later rounds because nobody else needed/wanted them.

Same goes for athletic, undersized DE's that we'd turn into OLBs... Look at the top of this past draft and it's pretty clear how different that's become... in the first 6 picks, there were 3 OT's and 3 DE/OLB hybrids (Dion Jordan, Ziggy Ansah, Barkevious Mingo) that some actually tied to the Steelers in mocks because of their obviousl fit in teh 3-4 defense. Fifteen years ago, the team would have gotten one of those guys in the 3rd (see Joey Porter) because other teams would have reservations about fit on their team.
I agree. That's one reason why all positions should be considered in the first round outside of kicker and punter.

Different factors can determine when a player is drafted. Unfortunately for the Steelers, more teams play the 3-4 or a variation of the 3-4. The draft strength of a particular position is another factor to consider. Should an organization draft a player that they believe can help the team win? Or should the organization wait and hope another player will be there later in the draft? The talent level generally drops with each round of the draft. Sometimes the talent level drops with in that round of the draft. Not all first round draft picks should be considered equal. Not all drafts by position should be considered equal either. That's why very few positions are off limits in the first round for the guys that draft for a living.

[Chadman]

There was nothing fundamentally wrong with either the Hood or Heyward selections. Both were considered high round picks, both fit a need for the team, both had performed at the college level.

If Hood & Heyward had been given a 'go get 'em' mantra instead of an 'occupy the blocker' mantra, would this argument still be going ahead?

[Captain Lemming]

All u needed right there... we could get those guys in later rounds because nobody else needed/wanted them.

Same goes for athletic, undersized DE's that we'd turn into OLBs... Look at the top of this past draft and it's pretty clear how different that's become... in the first 6 picks, there were 3 OT's and 3 DE/OLB hybrids (Dion Jordan, Ziggy Ansah, Barkevious Mingo) that some actually tied to the Steelers in mocks because of their obviousl fit in teh 3-4 defense. Fifteen years ago, the team would have gotten one of those guys in the 3rd (see Joey Porter) because other teams would have reservations about fit on their team.

There IS and issue with undersized college defensive ends to turn into linebackers.

Not linemen. You STILL dont have to use premium picks for our guys. A great defensive end in our defense is a great DT in the 4/3. He is the same guy. If he is fast enough he can play DE in a 4/3.

Our best defensive ends however WERE NOT PROJECTED TO BE 3/4 defensive ends period.

Aaron Smith and Brett Keisel were 4/3 in college and were more Ziggy Ansah long than than Ziggy Hood stout. Julius Peppers was HEAVIER that they were when drafted. Their builds were very much 4/3 defensive ends but they filled out. Speaking of Hood he projected JUST AS MUCH as a 4/3 defensive TACKLE his college position. Keisel was not in demand NOT BECAUSE nobody wanted a 3/4 end (which he was not). There is little demand for someone whos showed enough in college to be an "Honorable Mention Mountain West" talent. Heck I watched BYU back then, I live in the region that gets their games. He was NOT there best DEFENSIVE END on that team. Ryan Denny was a BEAST. Ironically had Denny had better size for our defense at the time than the skinnier Keisel.

Aaron Smith said he had had strong interest from the Denver Broncos who ran a 4/3, the Broncos "settled" for another defensive end in round 5.

The difference on draft day between Julius Peppers and Aaron Smith is one runs a 4.7 and the other runs a 5.0 40 yard dash. AND one played for a BCS school and the other for NORTHERN COLORADO.

2012 does not change the "Aaron Smiths" of the worlds draft status.

[Chadman]

Interestingly, wasn't Denney a Cowher target, but he got selected before the Steelers got to pick him? From memory it was a Round 2 thing.. obviously watching Denney put Keisel on the radar.

[Captain Lemming]

There was nothing fundamentally wrong with either the Hood or Heyward selections. Both were considered high round picks, both fit a need for the team, both had performed at the college level.

If Hood & Heyward had been given a 'go get 'em' mantra instead of an 'occupy the blocker' mantra, would this argument still be going ahead?

THIS IS MY POINT.
We waste a pick who's skill set IS penetration when you ask him to "occupy blockers".
Ziggy is out there getting pushed around, trying to occupy rather than attack
If we are REALLY gonna do that they should be 4/3 tackles.

[Captain Lemming]

Interestingly, wasn't Denney a Cowher target, but he got selected before the Steelers got to pick him? From memory it was a Round 2 thing.. obviously watching Denney put Keisel on the radar.

Thats funny. I did not know that.
Makes sense we wound up with Hoke too from that EXACT same team (all three were teamates around 2000).
Somebody on the Steelers was watchin A WHOLE LOTTA BYU defensive line play for some reason, Denney would explain it.

[feltdizz]

The fact that the team paid a fortune to Casey and Aaron is a pretty good indicator of their value.

Fortune? I don't think we paid them crazy money... but we held onto them too long. I actually think Hampton was good last year... Aaron Smith cashed 2 years of checks while doing the Duce.

[Oviedo]

THIS IS MY POINT.
We waste a pick who's skill set IS penetration when you ask him to "occupy blockers".
Ziggy is out there getting pushed around, trying to occupy rather than attack
If we are REALLY gonna do that they should be 4/3 tackles.


Been saying the same thing for 3 years

Our roster is not the roster we had in 2006-2009 but we are trying to force the same things to happen instead of adpating to the talent we have versus what someone wants to have.

[phillyesq]

There was nothing fundamentally wrong with either the Hood or Heyward selections. Both were considered high round picks, both fit a need for the team, both had performed at the college level.

If Hood & Heyward had been given a 'go get 'em' mantra instead of an 'occupy the blocker' mantra, would this argument still be going ahead?

I would suggest that the better question is this: if Hood & Heyward were performing at the Aaron Smith level, would this thread have ever been started? My guess is that the answer would be "no."

[feltdizz]

I would suggest that the better question is this: if Hood & Heyward were performing at the Aaron Smith level, would this thread have ever been started? My guess is that the answer would be "no."

you could say that about every player, coach, etc... no one makes a thread about guys when they are doing their job.

[feltdizz]

Been saying the same thing for 3 years

Our roster is not the roster we had in 2006-2009 but we are trying to force the same things to happen instead of adpating to the talent we have versus what someone wants to have.

bingo... and bringing back old players is a clear sign our coaching ain't working. I think it's time to get younger with out coaches. Sure DL is a legend but we keep bringing back subpar players because the guys we have or want to get can't crack the code.

Someone made a great point on Charlotte radio when talking about Cam Newton... out of 9 or 10 young QB's 8 of them have coaches from the college ranks or young guys at the helm. Cam has Rivera.. a newbie who is defense minded... and it shows IMO.

I think we are going through the same problem.. we are stuck on old football and all these teams are wide open gashing teams while we small ball it and slow roll it hoping to win a 17 to 14 nail biter.

[phillyesq]

you could say that about every player, coach, etc... no one makes a thread about guys when they are doing their job.

But the issue is framed as never spending a first round pick on a 3-4 DE. My point is that it is not the position, it is the player and the performance.

[Captain Lemming]

you could say that about every player, coach, etc... no one makes a thread about guys when they are doing their job.

As the one who made the thread, i never liked the picks based on the title of this thread. After we drafted Heyward, our SECOND defensive end in only three years, I wrote the following:

Couldn't agree more Crash.
I have always contended that the skill set required for DE in our D does not require a 1st round pick period. Two is just ridiculous.
While your comment is sarcastic you do know that JPN does in fact "blame Arians" when we drafted Hood over an olineman?
You need to lay some knowledge on him,
I like Tomlin and think Colbert has no peer, but this one is most certainly on them. Hood especially, should have been a second rounder on a 4-3 team


Despite the very uncharacteristic FIRST LINE of that post yes I said that.

If Smith were in the draft TODAY with his tiny school and measurable, he would NOT BE a first round pick.

Prediction: When all is said and done (4th round pick) Al Woods WILL wind up to be the best 3/4 defensive end on this roster.

Smith was powerful, able to dominate and control a lineman, but not as clock fast as Hood or Heyward.
The same can be said of Al Wood who ALSO was a 4th round pick.

The difference between first round picks tends to be speed.

You can often get EXTREMELY powerful linemen outside the first. They just dont time well.

[feltdizz]

As the one who made the thread, i never liked the picks based on the title of this thread. After we drafted Heyward, our SECOND defensive end in only three years, I wrote the following:

Couldn't agree more Crash.
I have always contended that the skill set required for DE in our D does not require a 1st round pick period. Two is just ridiculous.
While your comment is sarcastic you do know that JPN does in fact "blame Arians" when we drafted Hood over an olineman?
You need to lay some knowledge on him,
I like Tomlin and think Colbert has no peer, but this one is most certainly on them. Hood especially, should have been a second rounder on a 4-3 team


Despite the very uncharacteristic FIRST LINE of that post yes I said that

welp... there it is

[flippy]

Couldn't agree more Crash.


LOL. Stop making crap up :)

[Captain Lemming]

LOL. Stop making crap up :)

Yes, I know my credibility is SHOT.
I agree with Crash......AND bash Tomlin and Colbert IN THE SAME POST

Perhaps I left the computer unlocked and someone in my house typed that crazy stuff.

[Oviedo]

bingo... and bringing back old players is a clear sign our coaching ain't working. I think it's time to get younger with out coaches. Sure DL is a legend but we keep bringing back subpar players because the guys we have or want to get can't crack the code.

Someone made a great point on Charlotte radio when talking about Cam Newton... out of 9 or 10 young QB's 8 of them have coaches from the college ranks or young guys at the helm. Cam has Rivera.. a newbie who is defense minded... and it shows IMO.

I think we are going through the same problem.. we are stuck on old football and all these teams are wide open gashing teams while we small ball it and slow roll it hoping to win a 17 to 14 nail biter.

You are right on. Successful teams are about maximizing the players ability to contribute. Here we put the players second and an old coach first.

[SteelerOfDeVille]

Yes, I know my credibility is SHOT.
I agree with Crash......AND bash Tomlin and Colbert IN THE SAME POST

Perhaps I left the computer unlocked and someone in my house typed that crazy stuff.

or... you're crash!

[Captain Lemming]

or... you're crash!


You Take That BACK Buster !!!!!!!! :mad:


http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/angry-man-pointing-finger-you-12408562.jpg

[Captain Lemming]

You are right on. Successful teams are about maximizing the players ability to contribute. Here we put the players second and an old coach first.

Well.....in his defense we ARE supposed to be drafting players for HIS scheme.
It is not like he came here and inherited these guys.

My problem is why we are taking "these" guys for his defense.