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View Full Version : Steelers select Markus Wheaton in the third



Rara
04-26-2013, 09:36 PM
OVERVIEW
Wheaton might not be biggest receiver in the 2013 draft class, but he towers above the last two playmakers coming out of Corvallis –- Jacquizz and James Rodgers, who averaged about 5-foot-6, 190 pounds at their respective combines. His athleticism certainly matches up with the Rodgers brothers, as well, because not only was Wheaton a solid high school football talent among the best players coming out of Arizona in 2008, but he also won 400- and 800-meter races at junior national track meets before also performing well in state high school meets.

His speed and athleticism translated onto the field as a true freshman, as he was used on fly sweeps (11 rushes for 79 yards and a score) and as a reserve receiver (8-89). Wheaton led the Beavers in receiving in 2010, starting eight of 12 games played with James Rodgers on the sideline (55-675, four TD) and was again used regularly on sweeps (27-220, two TD), finishing the year with a 10-catch, 137-yard effort against rival Oregon (where his cousin, Kenny, played in the mid-1990s) in the Civil War. He earned honorable mention All-Pac 12 honors while starting all 12 games as a junior, again leading the team in receiving (73-986, TD) and contributing as a runner (25-190).

In 2012, Wheaton eclipsed the 1,000-yard barrier, catching 91 passes for 1,244 yards and 11 touchdowns.

ANALYSIS

STRENGTHS His quickness is blatant and dangerous. Whether taking off from the slot or outside, his feet are literally a step ahead of his defender on everything from speed outs, crossers, to jerk routes. Displays the flexibility to grab throws behind him or over his shoulder when running deep. He’ll also extend away from his body to bring in high or wide throws, and will stutter on the sideline to ensure he makes the catch in-bounds. Possesses some thickness to his frame, and is willing to lower his shoulder to get the extra yard – often diving under defenders to get as many as possible. Wheaton also dabbled in track while at OSU, reminding scouts of his elite speed.

WEAKNESSES While he can elude defenders in the open field, he’s not necessarily elite making men miss after the catch. Too often he will let the ball into his frame as opposed to attacking it. Will round off deeper pattern that consist of him coming back to the quarterback. Can be overwhelmed by physical corners in his route, and especially at the line of scrimmage. Inconsistent as a blocker. Willing, but too often will fall off his block, or allow his man to simply overpower him.

NFL COMPARISON Antonio Brown

BOTTOM LINE In 2012, Wheaton became the Beavers' all-time leader in receptions. Wheaton used his track speed to break off long runs from short routes and get behind defenders for big plays. Wheaton isn't solely limited to the slot, and he will likely find himself as a first or second round selection due to his ability to test defenses horizontally and vertically.

Shawn
04-26-2013, 09:43 PM
Solid pick.

steelsnis
04-26-2013, 09:45 PM
http://oregonstate.scout.com/2/1269863.html

Jim Wexell really liked Wheaton coming into Day 2.

Herewegosteelers!
04-26-2013, 09:46 PM
Interesting: • Josh Norris of NFL.com slots Wheaton as the No. 6 wide receiver (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000158865/article/2013-nfl-draft-tavon-austin-headlines-wide-receiver-rankings) in the draft:
There have been plenty of comparisons made between Wheaton and Mike Wallace; I actually think the Oregon State product is further along in his development than Wallace was coming out of college. Wheaton definitely gets behind coverages, but he also cuts his routes off with burst and works underneath well, too. Projection: Second round

BradshawsHairdresser
04-26-2013, 09:53 PM
Mike Wallace? I think he compares more with Emmanuel Sanders and/or Antonio Brown. I'm guessing this means they will let Sanders go after this season instead of trying to re-sign him.

Rara
04-26-2013, 09:53 PM
Mike Wallace? I think he compares more with Emmanuel Sanders and/or Antonio Brown. I'm guessing this means they will let Sanders go after this season instead of trying to re-sign him.

Which is a complete waste..

squidkid
04-26-2013, 10:06 PM
i like this pick

D Rock
04-26-2013, 11:40 PM
he looks like a more complete receiver than Wallace was at least

SteelerOfDeVille
04-27-2013, 01:30 AM
Which is a complete waste..
not if the team wins a super bowl!

Chadman
04-27-2013, 02:08 AM
One of the better WR's in this draft. He was excellent at the Senior Bowl practices- watching Wheaton vs Trufant was possibly the best part of that process.

Steelers got a speedy guy- not Wallace fast, but fast- who looks like he has the ability to be a #1 in the NFL.

Big Ern McCracken
04-27-2013, 07:12 AM
If he is being considered a second round talent, and the #6 receiver overall in the draft, I think we got a solid pick for a mid 3rd rounder. Looks like a very good character guy also.

blitz71burgh71
04-27-2013, 10:13 AM
Seems like a good kid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GZVA1goAn0

hawaiiansteel
04-28-2013, 06:21 PM
Markus Wheaton among Senior Bowl standouts

By Bucky Brooks
Analyst, NFL.com and NFL Network
Jan. 24, 2013

MOBILE, Ala. --

Markus Wheaton, WR, Oregon State: Wheaton has been the most impressive receiver at the Senior Bowl -- by far. The Oregon State product has displayed excellent speed, quickness and burst, routinely separating from defenders out of breaks. Most impressively, Wheaton has shown strong hands; he is an outstanding pass catcher in traffic. By showcasing the capacity to make plays at every level, Wheaton has created quite a buzz in the NFL scouting community.

http://www.nfl.com/seniorbowl/story/0ap1000000130235/article/markus-wheaton-lane-johnson-among-senior-bowl-standouts

Jooser
04-28-2013, 09:10 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo9dBzWlelk

I think he looks just like Mike Wallace in the way he runs....

DukieBoy
04-28-2013, 11:25 PM
He does remind me some of Wallace, too. Except that he catches more with his hands, at least in the vid. Looks like an excellent pick.

Chadman
04-29-2013, 05:06 AM
If you YouTube the senior bowl WR vs db's clip, there are some extensive looks at Wheaton against Trufant.

Slapstick
04-29-2013, 08:20 AM
This kid is a football player turned track star...

He finished 2nd in the PAC-12 Outdoor Track Championships by running the 100 meter in 10.58 seconds...I believe that puts him at sub 4.45...

Pretty good long speed...and, he has hands!!

steelman7
04-29-2013, 08:38 AM
I honestly dnt think he has as gd as hands as Stedman Bailey who was available in the 3rd round...Stedman is very elusive after the catch..and he runs gd routes...my opinion is the steelers missed on this one...and will regret pick in MArkus...im sorry to say...and the fact that they chose a qb in the 4th round when they could have gotten Marcus Lattimore and he can sit behind Dweyer and Leveon until he is ready
That would have been really gd....To be honest...i think this draft will cost Tomlin his job...and it sucks becuase i really dnt think he is that bad of a coach...i also think that Todd haley was a bad pick up for Offensive coordinator...but they made the decision to bring him in theres no point in firng him now....might as well let Ben finish his career with him...to late for any changes.

steel50
04-29-2013, 08:41 AM
i can see him finding is way at the number three wr by the start of the season

steelman7
04-29-2013, 08:44 AM
Im a Steelers fan completly...and i dnt miss games...but Steeler fans are being decieved
The Steelers Nation has fallen in love with speed just because Mike Wallace....but Speed isnt everything ask
Hines Ward...The Steelers should have picked Stedman Bailey from West Virginia, he reminds
Me so much of Hines ward...gd hands gd route running...and is very elusive after the catch...i think the Steelers
Made a wrong desicion...which has me question there scouts..the last couple years...becuase we have had some major bust
In last couple of drafts. Trust me Stedman Bailey is gonna be alot better then Wheaton...check his tape out on uyou tube

steel50
04-29-2013, 08:47 AM
Im a Steelers fan completly...and i dnt miss games...but Steeler fans are being decieved
The Steelers Nation has fallen in love with speed just because Mike Wallace....but Speed isnt everything ask
Hines Ward...The Steelers should have picked Stedman Bailey from West Virginia, he reminds
Me so much of Hines ward...gd hands gd route running...and is very elusive after the catch...i think the Steelers
Made a wrong desicion...which has me question there scouts..the last couple years...becuase we have had some major bust
In last couple of drafts. Trust me Stedman Bailey is gonna be alot better then Wheaton...check his tape out on uyou tube


i agree i think bailey has a chance to be a productive WR in the nfl but i feel wheaton was a steal and going to be great for us. i am glad they took him

Mister Pittsburgh
04-29-2013, 10:51 AM
He looks stiff and like he catches with his body too much. Looks fast though. Reminds me of Wallace, like a one trick pony type.

Shawn
04-29-2013, 10:56 AM
He looks stiff and like he catches with his body too much. Looks fast though. Reminds me of Wallace, like a one trick pony type.

He isn't. He can run all the routes, and has a more complete game.

flippy
04-29-2013, 11:00 AM
He does remind me some of Wallace, too. Except that he catches more with his hands, at least in the vid. Looks like an excellent pick.

He looks like he has Wally shins and eats up yardage the way that Wally does when he runs. He kinda looks like a cross between Wally and Manny. He really cuts hard on a couple of the routes I've seen.

steel50
04-29-2013, 11:01 AM
He isn't. He can run all the routes, and has a more complete game.

i agree
he needs to work on hands but i feel runs all routes and is not stiff

SteelSpain
04-30-2013, 05:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrSd7wOILoE&feature=youtu.be

flippy
04-30-2013, 05:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrSd7wOILoE&feature=youtu.be

I hope he gets the chance to run a 100 M a couple times this year. I think that's about the distance from the back of the endzone to the other endzone on a KR.

SteelSpain
04-30-2013, 06:02 PM
I hope he gets the chance to run a 100 M a couple times this year. I think that's about the distance from the back of the endzone to the other endzone on a KR.

Almost, 99 M :D (1 yard = 0,9 M)

hawaiiansteel
05-01-2013, 04:17 PM
Draft provides some helping hands for Steelers offense

April 30, 2013
By Ed Bouchette / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://db66abc2c256b763aaef-ce5d943d4869ae027976e5ad085dd9b0.r76.cf2.rackcdn.c om/2013/119/212/steelers_420.jpg

Markus Wheaton, the Steelers' third-round pick, claims to run a 4.3 40.

What's left of the Young Money Crew will merge with the New Young Money Crew and a couple of geezers, and somewhere in there the Steelers will find themselves a receiving corps for 2013.

Ben Roethlisberger will have new targets to break in this spring and summer. The Steelers apparently liked the formula that delivered Emmanuel Sanders and Antonio Brown in the 2010 draft so much that they tried it again over the weekend.

They drafted receivers in the third and sixth rounds. They went for speed in the third round with Markus Wheaton of Oregon State, and height in the sixth round with 6-foot-3 Justin Brown of Oklahoma via Penn State.

"We look at Markus Wheaton as a speed receiver that can get deep," general manager Kevin Colbert said.

"Justin Brown [was an] opportunity to add a big receiver."

Neither Colbert nor Mike Tomlin or anyone else knows quite how either will fit, but if Wheaton has the kind of speed he and they say he does, then he could become a more polished Mike Wallace, the Steelers' third-round draft choice in 2009.

Wheaton says he has run a 4.3 in the 40 (Wallace was sub-4.3), but he ran a 4.45 at the combine. Offensive coordinator Todd Haley said that was a good thing, just as it was when Jarvis Jones ran a slow time at his pro day.

"When you have guys that you like, you aren't rooting for them to run fast and get a lot of attention," Haley said. "I know it probably hurt his feelings and made him feel bad, but we were happy because when you put on the tape, he plays fast. He's a fast player and quick. He will be an exciting guy to have around."

The Steelers had planned to move Emmanuel Sanders to Wallace's split end spot (where he backed him up). Wheaton's speed suits that as well and he has experience playing in the slot, too. They can mix and match with Brown, Sanders and Wheaton, provided the rookie develops quickly enough.

The Steelers also have veterans Jerricho Cotchery and Plaxico Burress.

"We have a nice mix right now of inside and outside guys," Haley said. "To have a guy that, especially early, is contributing on special teams and knows multiple positions including inside and outside spots, I think that's a big positive with Markus."

Wheaton caught a school-record 227 passes in his career, although not anywhere near the big-play numbers in college that Wallace produced with the Steelers. Wheaton averaged 13.2 yards per catch at Oregon State.

The Steelers, though, think he comes in as a more well-rounded receiver than Wallace, whom Tomlin kept calling a "one-trick pony" in his first few years.

"I saw Mike as more of an outside receiver, outside the numbers," Haley said. "This guy has played the slot a bunch when he wasn't outside. He is a little wider base [than Wallace], a little more running back build, in my opinion. The speed comparison -- it's hard for anyone to run faster than Mike, but this guy does play fast."

Wallace caught 39 passes as a rookie in 2009 for 756 yards for a team that started two 1,000-yard receivers, Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes, and had opened up its passing game. Wallace started five games that year.

With Holmes gone, Wallace became a starter in 2002 and had his best season with 1,257 yards, 60 receptions, 10 touchdowns and a 21-yard average per catch.

The Steelers matched the one-year, $2.5 million contract Sanders signed with New England, and Colbert said they will talk to him about a long-term deal this summer. Sanders' agent said while they are open to signing a new contract, they want a substantial one. That, and the drafting of Wheaton and Brown, might indicate the Steelers are aware Sanders could depart in free agency in 2014.

Brown transferred from Penn State last year and did not have to sit out a season because of the NCAA ruling after its sanctions against Penn State that allowed transfers to play immediately.

Brown caught 35 passes in 2011 at Penn State and then thrived in the high-octane Oklahoma offense with 73 receptions from quarterback Landry Jones, drafted in the fourth round by the Steelers. Brown also returned punts for the Sooners with a 13.6-yard average and one touchdown. The Steelers think he has a higher-than-average chance of making the team than the usual sixth rounder because of his additional play on special teams.

"I just feel really good about what I saw on tape," new Steelers receives coach Richard Mann said about Brown. "I am a big film guy. He is a big guy. He is very productive. I think he has good toughness and that's part of being a good receiver. He can catch the football."

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/draft-provides-some-helping-hands-for-steelers-offense-685579/#ixzz2S495L08x

hawaiiansteel
05-03-2013, 01:49 PM
Receiver Wheaton could make biggest splash among Steelers’ rookies

By Alan Robinson
Published: Thursday, May 2, 2013

http://triblive.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=0myfX jxJCYB4y1DJtn3wbM$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYvEZ2LsxpIDoIB H8pTCLx24WCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4 uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_C ryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg

Oregon State receiver Markus Wheaton outruns Arizona State defender Chris Young on his way to a touchdown during the first half of their game Saturday, Nov. 3, 2012, in Corvallis, Ore.

Jarvis Jones could come in and start immediately. Le'Veon Bell could come in and start immediately. But Markus Wheaton could be the rookie from the Steelers' Class of 2013 who makes the biggest impact.

Forget the comparisons to Mike Wallace, the receiver he might replace — if not in the lineup, then as the Steelers' best deep threat. While Wheaton is exceptionally fast, especially after making the catch, he is not Wallace-fast.

He won't have to be to still be effective in Todd Haley's offense, which values quick throws to receivers who run precise routes to get open in heavy traffic.

“Markus Wheaton is a very good route runner who is coming into the NFL and will be ready to play right away,” ESPN draft analyst Mel Kiper Jr. said.

Wheaton, the leading receiver in Oregon State history, fell to the Steelers in the third round partly because of his 4.45 time in the 40 at the NFL Scouting Combine. Jones, the Georgia outside linebacker, slipped to No. 17 overall partly because of his 40 time, too.

Wheaton says he had run in the 4.3s during other workouts, just not the one that counted.

“I know it probably hurt his feelings and made him feel bad, but we were happy because, when you put the tape on, he plays fast,” Haley said of Wheaton, who caught 91 passes for 1,244 yards and 11 touchdowns last season. “He's a fast player and quick. He's an exciting guy to have around.”

Haley also called Wheaton “a versatile, good, polished” player. And while Wallace had game-changing speed, the word “polished” wasn't used to describe him coming out of Mississippi, also as a third-round pick.

That route-running ability and Wheaton's dependable hands could be more assets for the Steelers from the start in a year in which the top four picks — Jones, Bell, Wheaton and safety Shamarko Thomas — could make major contributions.

“A little different skill set than Mike other than the speed,” Haley said. “I saw Mike as more of an outside receiver outside the numbers. This guy has played the slot a bunch when he wasn't outside. He is a little wider base, a little more running back.”

Wheaton had 18 catches for 20 yards or more last season, yet also ran for 631 yards and five touchdowns during a career in which he caught 227 passes.

His ability to line up as the ‘X' receiver, which Wallace played almost exclusively, but also as the “Z” receiver and in the slot is certain to be utilized by new receivers coach Richard Mann, who is strong on fundamentals and technique.

“He was in the slot. He was in the backfield,” Haley said. “That tells us he's a smart guy. Any time a coach feels comfortable moving a guy around a bunch like that, that's good.”

Wheaton said he can envision himself “anywhere” in the Steelers' offense because “I like being all over the place. The defense can't plan for you when they don't know where you're going to be.”

Wheaton and 40 other Steelers rookies and first-year players will start a three-day minicamp on the South Side on Friday. The group includes the team's nine draft choices, the undrafted rookie free agents and nine first-year players who previously signed an NFL contract but did not accrue pension time.

There will be two quarterbacks — fourth-round pick Landry Jones of Oklahoma and undrafted rookie Caleb TerBush of Purdue. And Ryan Clarke, a running back from West Virginia.

http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/3954424-74/wheaton-steelers-receiver#ixzz2SFGBqt6X

hawaiiansteel
05-04-2013, 03:07 AM
Steelers rookie minicamp: Markus Wheaton adds a different dimension to Steelers passing attack

By Neal Coolong on May 3 2013


http://cdn0.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/12628435/gyi0062700881.0_standard_500.0.jpg

Wheaton, the Steelers' third round pick, is a player to watch this weekend. The speed in which he can grasp this offense will determine how much he could play this season.

Steelers third round pick Markus Wheaton will no doubt draw comparisons to former Steelers wide receiver Mike Wallace due to his outstanding long speed.

We've mentioned how he's more than that, though. Imagine that, a receiver who's more than just deep speed.

Wallace can't be replaced, but the dynamic of the Steelers offense can be changed for the better. As the Steelers rookie camp is underway in Pittsburgh, Wheaton could be the rookie who receives the most playing time this season, largely due to his skill and precision on slant and dig routes.

Unfortunately, he's also the rookie who will miss the Steelers' full team minicamps scheduled May 21-23, May 28-30 and June 3-6 due to the dreaded rule that doesn't allow rookies to work with their teams until their college has graduated. He will participate in this weekend's minicamp, though.

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/12351337/157275712.0_standard_709.0.jpg

Working within the structure of Todd Haley's offense, Wheaton's physicality will be just as much an asset as his speed will be. He can get inside defensive backs, who are forced to respect his speed to the outside. He does a great job of keeping himself between the defender and the ball, and gives the quarterback a target to hit while still allowing himself the leverage of the angle to turn up field and make plays.

The Steelers will see exactly what they have with Wheaton in minicamp, and how they use his versatility and underrated skills as a pass catcher. When paired with Antonio Brown, the Steelers will have two receivers who are adept at running underneath routes while still having the ability to stretch the seam.

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/5/3/4296306/steelers-rookie-minicamp-nfl-draft-2013-markus-wheaton

hawaiiansteel
05-15-2013, 12:19 AM
Markus Wheaton: Not Just Mike Wallace’s Replacement

May 14th, 2013 by Nick Kelly

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/58/files/2013/05/6678506-590x417.jpg

During the summer of 2012, Mike Wallace was absent for most of the offseason. The Steelers and Wallace’s camp were not able to come to an agreement on a long-term deal, so Wallace decided to play on his $2.7 million first round tender. Right after Mike Wallace supposedly turned down a big deal from the Steelers, they decided to sign Antonio Brown to a 5 year, $42 million deal.

After Brown’s deal, the writing on the wall was quite clear on both fronts, concerning Mike Wallace. To no surprise, Mike Wallace left the Steelers this offseason to sign a huge deal with the Miami Dolphins, making him one of the highest paid receivers in the NFL. I can’t say I can blame Wallace for taking that big deal. What I will say though is that I am glad it wasn’t the Steelers paying him that kind of money.

I was at the point where I was ready to say goodbye to Mike Wallace because quite frankly, he needed to go. Not only was I sick of his ‘me first’ mentality, I was also sick of what he did on the field, or should I say lack of what he did on the field. When Coach Tomlin coined the phrase “one-trick pony” for Wallace, many thought that he was just joking or trying to motivate him. Mike Wallace was a total one trick pony that was a track star in a football uniform. Yes, he took the top off the defense, but exactly what else did he do to help the Steelers win last year?

If you can’t tell already, I am not as big of fan of Mike Wallace as others. The production he had while in the black-and-gold is great, but he would always disappear in the playoffs. One of the few plays he made came in an end around against Denver, which wasn’t even a passing play. You can’t tell me you pay a guy $60 million to disappear from the playoffs. In 2012, when Ben would try to pass to Wallace, it was a safer bet that he would drop it instead of catching the ball. Steelers fans, including myself, became sick and tired of the way Wallace played in 2012.

After Wallace left, the Steelers had even more depth issues at wide receiver. The Steelers feel they partially filled that hole by drafting Markus Wheaton out of Oregon State. I have seen dozens upon dozens of articles saying “Can Markus Wheaton fill Mike Wallace’s shoes?” Or “Is Markus Wheaton the second coming of Mike Wallace?”

I hope not. I think the funniest thing is, other than the fact that both men are fast, and they have the same initials, the two receivers don’t have all that much in common at all. Mike Wallace is faster than Wheaton, but honestly, that’s the only edge I see Wallace having. Wheaton has WAY better hands, he’s a better route runner, he is not afraid to go over the middle, and he is willing to jump up to get the ball. How many times did you see Wallace put his body out there to make a play? You would have to look pretty hard to even find one time.

Another area where Wallace struggled and Wheaton excelled in, is run blocking. Wallace does something called “look back blocking” where he is constantly just looking back at the runner, trying to avoid the confrontation of blocking the defender. Markus Wheaton on the other hand is not afraid at all to get in there and get his nose dirty.

Even though Mike Wallace might be a one trick pony, he does that one trick well. I believe he does it about 40 million well, not 60 million. Can Markus Wheaton match the production Wallace has had? I firmly believe that he can and will. Not only will he match what Wallace has done, I truly believe he has what it takes to end up being twice the receiver Wallace was and will be become. Is Markus Wheaton Mike Wallace’s replacement? Not only will Wheaton be his replacement, Wheaton will be seen as an upgrade a season or two from now.

http://nicepickcowher.com/2013/05/14/markus-wheaton-not-just-mike-wallaces-replacement/

Oviedo
05-15-2013, 08:46 AM
Markus Wheaton: Not Just Mike Wallace’s Replacement

May 14th, 2013 by Nick Kelly

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/58/files/2013/05/6678506-590x417.jpg

During the summer of 2012, Mike Wallace was absent for most of the offseason. The Steelers and Wallace’s camp were not able to come to an agreement on a long-term deal, so Wallace decided to play on his $2.7 million first round tender. Right after Mike Wallace supposedly turned down a big deal from the Steelers, they decided to sign Antonio Brown to a 5 year, $42 million deal.

After Brown’s deal, the writing on the wall was quite clear on both fronts, concerning Mike Wallace. To no surprise, Mike Wallace left the Steelers this offseason to sign a huge deal with the Miami Dolphins, making him one of the highest paid receivers in the NFL. I can’t say I can blame Wallace for taking that big deal. What I will say though is that I am glad it wasn’t the Steelers paying him that kind of money.

I was at the point where I was ready to say goodbye to Mike Wallace because quite frankly, he needed to go. Not only was I sick of his ‘me first’ mentality, I was also sick of what he did on the field, or should I say lack of what he did on the field. When Coach Tomlin coined the phrase “one-trick pony” for Wallace, many thought that he was just joking or trying to motivate him. Mike Wallace was a total one trick pony that was a track star in a football uniform. Yes, he took the top off the defense, but exactly what else did he do to help the Steelers win last year?

If you can’t tell already, I am not as big of fan of Mike Wallace as others. The production he had while in the black-and-gold is great, but he would always disappear in the playoffs. One of the few plays he made came in an end around against Denver, which wasn’t even a passing play. You can’t tell me you pay a guy $60 million to disappear from the playoffs. In 2012, when Ben would try to pass to Wallace, it was a safer bet that he would drop it instead of catching the ball. Steelers fans, including myself, became sick and tired of the way Wallace played in 2012.

After Wallace left, the Steelers had even more depth issues at wide receiver. The Steelers feel they partially filled that hole by drafting Markus Wheaton out of Oregon State. I have seen dozens upon dozens of articles saying “Can Markus Wheaton fill Mike Wallace’s shoes?” Or “Is Markus Wheaton the second coming of Mike Wallace?”

I hope not. I think the funniest thing is, other than the fact that both men are fast, and they have the same initials, the two receivers don’t have all that much in common at all. Mike Wallace is faster than Wheaton, but honestly, that’s the only edge I see Wallace having. Wheaton has WAY better hands, he’s a better route runner, he is not afraid to go over the middle, and he is willing to jump up to get the ball. How many times did you see Wallace put his body out there to make a play? You would have to look pretty hard to even find one time.

Another area where Wallace struggled and Wheaton excelled in, is run blocking. Wallace does something called “look back blocking” where he is constantly just looking back at the runner, trying to avoid the confrontation of blocking the defender. Markus Wheaton on the other hand is not afraid at all to get in there and get his nose dirty.

Even though Mike Wallace might be a one trick pony, he does that one trick well. I believe he does it about 40 million well, not 60 million. Can Markus Wheaton match the production Wallace has had? I firmly believe that he can and will. Not only will he match what Wallace has done, I truly believe he has what it takes to end up being twice the receiver Wallace was and will be become. Is Markus Wheaton Mike Wallace’s replacement? Not only will Wheaton be his replacement, Wheaton will be seen as an upgrade a season or two from now.

http://nicepickcowher.com/2013/05/14/markus-wheaton-not-just-mike-wallaces-replacement/

Pretty well states exactly what I would have written. I'm happy we got Wheaton and happy Wallace is someone elses bad $60M investment.

Slapstick
05-15-2013, 11:18 AM
Wallace had great individual production during the regular season...if football were not a team sport, I would be sad that he is gone...

Wheaton could produce less statistically, but still help the team more...this is what I think we all hope for...

flippy
05-15-2013, 11:35 AM
Don't sleep on Brown. Just cause he's slower and drafted later doesn't mean he can't be a better WR. He's a big target that Haley could get the ball to quickly who can run in the open field to make some plays. The only reason people weren't interested in him is they questioned his speed.

Oviedo
05-15-2013, 02:13 PM
Don't sleep on Brown. Just cause he's slower and drafted later doesn't mean he can't be a better WR. He's a big target that Haley could get the ball to quickly who can run in the open field to make some plays. The only reason people weren't interested in him is they questioned his speed.

I don't see Brown making the Final 53 unless he just blows up camp and the preseason. He looks like PS material to me.

RuthlessBurgher
05-15-2013, 03:09 PM
I don't see Brown making the Final 53 unless he just blows up camp and the preseason. He looks like PS material to me.

Yeah, we are probably keeping only 5 WR's on the 53-man roster, and I don't see him leapfrogging Brown, Sanders, Wheaton, Cotchery, or Burress.

SteelerOfDeVille
05-15-2013, 06:10 PM
Even though Mike Wallace might be a one trick pony, he does that one trick well. I believe he does it about 40 million well, not 60 million.
and that one trick that he does very well was usless the minute they hired Todd Haley. At that point, Wallace wasn't even worth the $40 million they offered, and that's a shame.

Not that Wallace isn't a punk... But, I have a bigger problem with any coordinator who isn't wise enough to say, "i have the fastest guy on the field - how can i exploit that?" For that matter, he could be the tallest, or strongest or whatever the attribute is. I have a system and "square peg, you're going in THERE, dammit!!"

lack of imagination is cause for concern, IMO.... guys like Lawrence Taylor (or Troy Polamalu) never happen if their coordinator didn't realize what a freak of nature they have and exploit it...

I undervalued Arians... until Haley was hired.

Sugar
05-15-2013, 07:52 PM
I undervalued Arians... until Haley was hired.

I suspect you aren't the only one...

Oviedo
05-15-2013, 08:14 PM
But, I have a bigger problem with any coordinator who isn't wise enough to say, "i have the fastest guy on the field - how can i exploit that?" For that matter, he could be the tallest, or strongest or whatever the attribute is. I have a system and "square peg, you're going in THERE, dammit!!"

lack of imagination is cause for concern, IMO.... guys like Lawrence Taylor (or Troy Polamalu) never happen if their coordinator didn't realize what a freak of nature they have and exploit it...

I undervalued Arians... until Haley was hired.

When did this become a thread about LeBeau and his defense?????

Shawn
05-15-2013, 08:29 PM
and that one trick that he does very well was usless the minute they hired Todd Haley. At that point, Wallace wasn't even worth the $40 million they offered, and that's a shame.

Not that Wallace isn't a punk... But, I have a bigger problem with any coordinator who isn't wise enough to say, "i have the fastest guy on the field - how can i exploit that?" For that matter, he could be the tallest, or strongest or whatever the attribute is. I have a system and "square peg, you're going in THERE, dammit!!"

lack of imagination is cause for concern, IMO.... guys like Lawrence Taylor (or Troy Polamalu) never happen if their coordinator didn't realize what a freak of nature they have and exploit it...b

I undervalued Arians... until Haley was hired.

Haley is known for exactly the opposite of what you just described. He is known for creating new offenses that work, to use the O talent around him. Ben was on pace for a record breaking year running Haley's offense before injury...keep in mind this was Haley's first season as the O coordinator and met much resistance from his star QB. Keep in mind horrific injuries. You can keep Arians...I can't wait to see what Haley comes up with this season.

NorthCoast
05-15-2013, 09:05 PM
Haley is known for exactly the opposite of what you just described. He is known for creating new offenses that work, to use the O talent around him. Ben was on pace for a record breaking year running Haley's offense before injury...keep in mind this was Haley's first season as the O coordinator and met much resistance from his star QB. Keep in mind horrific injuries. You can keep Arians...I can't wait to see what Haley comes up with this season.


Completely agree Shawn. Not sure where DeVille was coming from on his comments. I don't think anyone can identify a "system" that Haley is known for. Arians on the otherhand, is known for long developing downfield passing with a sprinkle of random RUTFM thrown in to keep the RB's from losing focus during the game.

thor75
05-15-2013, 09:24 PM
Haley is known for exactly the opposite of what you just described. He is known for creating new offenses that work, to use the O talent around him. Ben was on pace for a record breaking year running Haley's offense before injury...keep in mind this was Haley's first season as the O coordinator and met much resistance from his star QB. Keep in mind horrific injuries. You can keep Arians...I can't wait to see what Haley comes up with this season.

At Arizona he had 3 1000 yd receivers and in KC he emphasized the run game as he did not have a top tier QB. He has that here in Pitts. and tried to build the offense around Big Ben AND keep him healthy. It seemed to be based on the WRs and RBs in zona and kc but the QB here. Throwing deep takes time to develop so Haley prob. went with strengthening the short game. I am looking forward to a better offense this year, for sure. Cant wait either!

Slapstick
05-15-2013, 10:52 PM
Mike Walace had plenty of opportunities to produce in Haley's offense...

It was not Haley's offense that held him back, but his own reluctance to give 100%...

flippy
05-16-2013, 01:07 AM
1. Wally wasn't around to work with Haley in the offseason or training camp.

2. Wally was disinterested in football and only worried about his payday.

3. Everyone likes ragging on Arians, but I'd say he actually did a nice job of working with what he had. The worst OLine in football, a QB that can stay alive for guys to get down field, a QB that's as good as anyone throwing 20-40 yards downfield, and an understanding of the odds that gaining big chunks of yards is what leads to production/results. I think he maximized the system. The Steelers didn't want Ben to take so many shots. They made BA the scape goat. But it was a combo of Ben and the line. BA was really good with formations and getting guys open down field. I've always though he got the big picture, but struggled a little in the in game execution. I do think he's a much better fit as a HC. But overall he was good for Ben and really pushed him to find his fine line in his game. The approach with Haley is Haley's brought in to find the line for Ben and create a system.

I can see both styles having value. But you have to think if we ever gave Ben a great OLine like some of the other QBs and the threat of a running game, maybe he can hold the ball longer and attack downfield. And when you think about the OLIne it seems we're trying to fit these guys to the system instead of to Ben's style of play. Max never quit blocking on plays. To his credit, he was one guy that catered to Ben's style of play. I think Adams is the only other guy that will play to the whistle. Many of the other guys seem to have a QB clock in their head and stop blocking when they think Ben should have gotten rid of the ball.

Shawn
05-16-2013, 10:21 AM
Arians, Ben and the OL can take the blame. If you are a bright OC, and you have a poor OL, and a stud QB...you don't develop your O around plays that take 5-7 seconds to develop. You shorten the drop back, shorten the routes, and compact the O until you get enough talent on the OL to keep your franchise QB healthy. You ignore your cowboy QB and his desire to extend plays, and you help him focus on quicker reads and getting the ball out. You play to the strengths and around the weaknesses of your O. That isn't what Arians did, therefore the criticism is warranted. I believe he is a good coach, but not a great coach because he has a hard time developing an O based upon the talent he has.

Haley on the other hand recognized all of that and developed an O the franchise QB hated. It took some balls to stand up to Ben and force him to play within the OL skill set. And at the end of the day Ben was having a record year until he got hurt. If this team stays healthy, I suspect many here will be singing Haley's praises, and when he is gone for a HC job many will lament his loss.

SteelerOfDeVille
05-16-2013, 11:19 AM
Haley is known for exactly the opposite of what you just described. He is known for creating new offenses that work, to use the O talent around him. Ben was on pace for a record breaking year running Haley's offense before injury...keep in mind this was Haley's first season as the O coordinator and met much resistance from his star QB. Keep in mind horrific injuries. You can keep Arians...I can't wait to see what Haley comes up with this season.
What he's known for and what he did are two entirely different things.

1. Sure he was on record pace - all the "average or better" QBs in the NFL are on amazing paces -- the league rules have changed and is set up for passing. SEVEN QBs surpassed the Steelers Yardage record in 2012. He would have made the 8th, making 25% of the league starters in a single year.

2. While I appreciate the dink-and-dunk for keeping Ben on his feet, he seemed to effectively eliminate the occasional deep ball. He had a WR that was virutually uncoverable deep and allowed the defense to cheat up - and make it harder to run (see the plummet in rushing stats), and inevitably, Ben was injured, anyway.

Personally, I loved the 3-4 times a game that Ben would "load up" and throw a bomb. I loved it because i knew there was a good likeliehood that the camera would pan to wallace running side-by-side with a defender, right before leaving him in his dust for 6.

What he comes up with this season... well, it won't include the fastest guy in the NFL... he missed his chance on that one.

Shawn
05-16-2013, 11:26 AM
1. It's not about comparing Ben to other QB's, its about comparing Ben to Ben within different systems. The difference was impressive.

2. While I agree about the deep ball, I believe that happened for several reasons. One is that Haley recognized there was a cost to going deep to Wallace...Ben's health...that our OL was inadequate. Two, I believe the ownership expressed a desire to keep Ben healthy, thus forcing Haley's hand. And finally, I believe Wallace halfazzed the season, and was behind in his understanding. We don't have another true deep threat.

What you need to look at is the emergence of Heath Miller. He has been underutilized and ignored for years, then he has a record year. Haley recognized the skill set and used it. Wallace was merely slow ballin, and waiting to get paid. I just can't blame Haley for that. Haley will go deep, when his OL can protect Ben, and when he has willing talent to go deep.

SteelerOfDeVille
05-16-2013, 12:17 PM
Shawn you missed (or just ignored) the relevance of the first point... I'm saying: OF COURSE last year's Ben was better than any other Ben. That's for 2 reasons - one, the already stated rule changes over the last few years to encourage a more wide-open passing game, resulting in nearly all QBs being better versions today than they were a few years ago. And, secondly, Ben's only played all 16 games once.

What I'm saying is if he makes 16 HEALTHY games at this point in his career, in TODAYS' NFL, I don't believe it really matters who the coordinator is. He's going to have the best season of his career.

Slapstick
05-16-2013, 02:57 PM
Shawn you missed (or just ignored) the relevance of the first point... I'm saying: OF COURSE last year's Ben was better than any other Ben. That's for 2 reasons - one, the already stated rule changes over the last few years to encourage a more wide-open passing game, resulting in nearly all QBs being better versions today than they were a few years ago. And, secondly, Ben's only played all 16 games once.

What I'm saying is if he makes 16 HEALTHY games at this point in his career, in TODAYS' NFL, I don't believe it really matters who the coordinator is. He's going to have the best season of his career.

And what I believe Shawn is saying is that Ben's chances of playing 16 HEALTHY games increases dramatically if he plays within Haley's system as opposed to playing within Arians' system...if he simply decides to go rogue, it doesn't matter who the coordinator is...

SteelerOfDeVille
05-16-2013, 04:07 PM
And what I believe Shawn is saying is that Ben's chances of playing 16 HEALTHY games increases dramatically if he plays within Haley's system as opposed to playing within Arians' system...if he simply decides to go rogue, it doesn't matter who the coordinator is...

I don't want 16 healthy with an average (to below average) offense. They started 5-3 in the easier half of the schedule, including losses to the Raiders and Titans... Gimme 14 healthy when the team is 12-4.

Oviedo
05-16-2013, 04:23 PM
I don't want 16 healthy with an average (to below average) offense. They started 5-3 in the easier half of the schedule, including losses to the Raiders and Titans... Gimme 14 healthy when the team is 12-4.

Huh??????????????????????????????????????

You totally lost me

feltdizz
05-16-2013, 04:28 PM
I don't want 16 healthy with an average (to below average) offense. They started 5-3 in the easier half of the schedule, including losses to the Raiders and Titans... Gimme 14 healthy when the team is 12-4.

I get what you are saying but most won't understand it...

Ben's style under Arians led to some big hits and a banged up Ben but we were usually in contention even though the offense was a roller coaster all year and had stretches of ugliness. Ben would miss a few games but we would be in Super Bowl run mode come playoffs.

With Haley we had a healthy Ben and struggled vs some bad teams. Ben had good numbers but the O was pathetic and had long drives that yielded 3 or nothing at all. We were efficient but it was still 3rd and hope Ben converts instead of killing teams with our awesome dink and dunk.

IMO Haley's O had potential but we capped our big plays due to the dinks.. and the only reason we went deep so much was due to Ben being Ben...

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
05-16-2013, 05:44 PM
I don't want 16 healthy with an average (to below average) offense. They started 5-3 in the easier half of the schedule, including losses to the Raiders and Titans... Gimme 14 healthy when the team is 12-4.

I get what you are saying Deville, but I would not put the poor start at the feet of Ben. This was the one time in the last 10 or so years when you could say that the D failed the O. Ben had 16 TDs and 4 ints in the first 8 games. He managed this with a poor O line and the most receiver drops that he had ever had to endure as a Steeler QB.

If you want to see the player who lost out the most in this offense it was Wallace, but without him around when he was evaluating personnel, how can you expect otherwise? Even if Haley was another Arians, how could he have made Wallace a centerpiece if he missed the entire pre-season with no indication if he would show up in time to start?

raycafan
05-16-2013, 06:00 PM
[QUOTE=feltdizz;563434]I get what you are saying but most won't understand it...
"With Haley we had a healthy Ben and struggled vs some bad teams. Ben had good numbers but the O was pathetic and had long drives that yielded 3 or nothing at all. We were efficient but it was still 3rd and hope Ben converts instead of killing teams with our awesome dink and dunk. "




It seems to me that for years people were bitching about Arians offense not finding the end zone too. So maybe it is not the coordinators as much as the personal that performing the plays.

Slapstick
05-16-2013, 06:32 PM
I get what you are saying Deville, but I would not put the poor start at the feet of Ben. This was the one time in the last 10 or so years when you could say that the D failed the O. Ben had 16 TDs and 4 ints in the first 8 games.

This is exactly right...

As much as I complaing about the lack of offensive scoring, the offense was not why we lost the Raiders game...

Nor was the offense why we lost the Titans game...

In the second half of the season, when the defense played better, the offense failed...

The Browns loss, for example, was totally the offense's fault...

flippy
05-16-2013, 07:28 PM
During BA's career, we averaged 22.6 pts per game. Haley's offense which was intended to fix BA's short comings put up 21 pts per game.

Ben averaged 14.6 games during BA's tenure vs 13 for Haley's one season. And BA's tenure included his suspension. Take out the suspension and Ben missed 3 games over BA's 5 year tenure. That's how many games he missed last year and Haley was brought in to protect him.

Haley's here, so I support him. But he has yet to do what he's promised to do. We didn't like BA cause he could run. The OLine couldn't block. The RedZone efficiency sucked. And yet, under Haley, the running game got worse. The scoring got worse. Ben's health was worse. Ben was statistically having a better year, but the team didn't improve offensively like the Steelers wanted.

And avoiding the deep ball didn't protect Ben in the end. It just took away chances to score more. To open up things underneath. To help take a DB out of the box and help the running game.

I think you can make a pretty good case that BA got the most out of the players he had. Haley still has yet to do this. Hopefully he does. But we just haven't seen it yet.

NorthCoast
05-16-2013, 08:30 PM
Arians, Ben and the OL can take the blame. If you are a bright OC, and you have a poor OL, and a stud QB...you don't develop your O around plays that take 5-7 seconds to develop. You shorten the drop back, shorten the routes, and compact the O until you get enough talent on the OL to keep your franchise QB healthy. You ignore your cowboy QB and his desire to extend plays, and you help him focus on quicker reads and getting the ball out. You play to the strengths and around the weaknesses of your O. That isn't what Arians did, therefore the criticism is warranted. I believe he is a good coach, but not a great coach because he has a hard time developing an O based upon the talent he has.

Haley on the other hand recognized all of that and developed an O the franchise QB hated. It took some balls to stand up to Ben and force him to play within the OL skill set. And at the end of the day Ben was having a record year until he got hurt. If this team stays healthy, I suspect many here will be singing Haley's praises, and when he is gone for a HC job many will lament his loss.


And Arians only repeated his modus operandi when he left for Indy who had an arguably worse OL than the Steelers and yet he had a rookie QB hold the ball for 20+yd routes. Luck was hit a lot more than he needed to be for a first year QB.

Shawn
05-16-2013, 09:35 PM
I get what you are saying Deville, but I would not put the poor start at the feet of Ben. This was the one time in the last 10 or so years when you could say that the D failed the O. Ben had 16 TDs and 4 ints in the first 8 games. He managed this with a poor O line and the most receiver drops that he had ever had to endure as a Steeler QB.

If you want to see the player who lost out the most in this offense it was Wallace, but without him around when he was evaluating personnel, how can you expect otherwise? Even if Haley was another Arians, how could he have made Wallace a centerpiece if he missed the entire pre-season with no indication if he would show up in time to start?p

And you just nailed it. Sorry, I can't place Bens success in a very new O on some rule changes. That's a tremendous stretch. Ben was freakish for 8 games before the injury. If Ben stays healthy you will see even more.

thor75
05-16-2013, 11:50 PM
I just don't think you can compare BA's 5 years vs Haleys one. Plus the biggest effect of Big Ben being BA's best bud. If there was a fractured locker room last year, I'm sure BB's displeasure with the OC change had something to do with it. Wallace's situation may have exasperated it. All of a sudden a new OC is supposed to come in and change the offense with drastic effects. I don't think so. These things take time, bringing in coaches with the same mindset, philosophy, and players with that desired skill set. It's really no surprise the offense did not improve drastically last year, the franchise QB with his "rosetta stone" comments and whatever self imposed prejudicies he harbored. I was really impressed with his new founded leadership he has shown this off season. Big Ben for all his physical prowess, needs to step it up in the mental game this year to become one of the all time greats

feltdizz
05-17-2013, 09:17 AM
And Arians only repeated his modus operandi when he left for Indy who had an arguably worse OL than the Steelers and yet he had a rookie QB hold the ball for 20+yd routes. Luck was hit a lot more than he needed to be for a first year QB.

The Colts made the playoffs.

BA may have a style that exposes the QB to more hits but it also exposes them to more opportunities to win games.

I bet the house BA wouldn't call a bubble screen inside our own 2 yard line...

feltdizz
05-17-2013, 09:20 AM
p

And you just nailed it. Sorry, I can't place Bens success in a very new O on some rule changes. That's a tremendous stretch. Ben was freakish for 8 games before the injury. If Ben stays healthy you will see even more.

Ben's success was Ben being a magician on 3rd down.

Slapstick
05-17-2013, 09:20 AM
The Colts made the playoffs.

BA may have a style that exposes the QB to more hits but it also exposes them to more opportunities to win games.

I bet the house BA wouldn't call a bubble screen inside our own 2 yard line...

You'd probably lose your house...

Shawn
05-17-2013, 11:52 AM
How about we give Haley more than one year before we want to burn him at the stake.

SteelerOfDeVille
05-17-2013, 11:56 AM
During BA's career, we averaged 22.6 pts per game. Haley's offense which was intended to fix BA's short comings put up 21 pts per game.

Ben averaged 14.6 games during BA's tenure vs 13 for Haley's one season. And BA's tenure included his suspension. Take out the suspension and Ben missed 3 games over BA's 5 year tenure. That's how many games he missed last year and Haley was brought in to protect him.

Haley's here, so I support him. But he has yet to do what he's promised to do. We didn't like BA cause he could run. The OLine couldn't block. The RedZone efficiency sucked. And yet, under Haley, the running game got worse. The scoring got worse. Ben's health was worse. Ben was statistically having a better year, but the team didn't improve offensively like the Steelers wanted.

And avoiding the deep ball didn't protect Ben in the end. It just took away chances to score more. To open up things underneath. To help take a DB out of the box and help the running game.

I think you can make a pretty good case that BA got the most out of the players he had. Haley still has yet to do this. Hopefully he does. But we just haven't seen it yet.

Glad to see others jumped in on this... was starting to think i was the only weirdo who was not really impressed thus far...

SteelerOfDeVille
05-17-2013, 11:58 AM
p

And you just nailed it. Sorry, I can't place Bens success in a very new O on some rule changes. That's a tremendous stretch. Ben was freakish for 8 games before the injury. If Ben stays healthy you will see even more.

but, to say it has zero impact? that's like saying going from 12 games to 16 games wouldn't lead to more 1000-yard rushers... you'd be ignoring facts...

Captain Lemming
05-17-2013, 12:09 PM
Ben's success was Ben being a magician on 3rd down.

Dink and dunk mean fewer sack, higher percentage, easy 1st down pickups.

"Magic" is easier when you arent facing 3rd and 10 or more all the time

SteelerOfDeVille
05-17-2013, 12:19 PM
And what I believe Shawn is saying is that Ben's chances of playing 16 HEALTHY games increases dramatically if he plays within Haley's system as opposed to playing within Arians' system...if he simply decides to go rogue, it doesn't matter who the coordinator is...


I don't want 16 healthy with an average (to below average) offense. They started 5-3 in the easier half of the schedule, including losses to the Raiders and Titans... Gimme 14 healthy when the team is 12-4.

Huh??????????????????????????????????????
You totally lost me
To clarify -- my question/point was do we care about winning or do we care ONLY about Ben being healthy? I realize that one influences the other, but, there's a certain amount of give and take.

For example, if the team came out and ran the ball up the middle on every single down, just to keep Ben healthy, that would be a problem right? They'd probably go close to 0-16 and we'd all be ticked off.

Obviously running every play is extreme, but, you get the point. I'm asking what's the hang up on 16 healthy games (from Ben) in an average offense? I'd rather have 14 healthy games (from Ben) in an explosive offense. During 2 of the 3 seasons they've gone to the Super Bowl during Ben's tenure, he played only 12 games (for various reasons - lol)...

It's not a requirement to have perfect attendance during the regular season to do well in the postseason.

SteelerOfDeVille
05-17-2013, 12:21 PM
How about we give Haley more than one year before we want to burn him at the stake.
simply said i wasn't impressed thus far... if that's burning at the stake... mmmkay....

RuthlessBurgher
05-17-2013, 12:34 PM
simply said i wasn't impressed thus far... if that's burning at the stake... mmmkay....
Tell me. What do you do with offensive coordinators?

Burn!
Burn!
Burn! Burn them up! Burn!...

And what do you burn apart from offensive coordinators?

More offensive coordinators!
Shh!
Wood!

So, why do offensive coordinators burn?

B--... 'cause they're made of... wood?

Good! Heh heh.

Oh, yeah. Oh.

So, how do we tell whether he is made of wood?

Build a bridge out of him.

Ah, but can you not also make bridges out of stone?

Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. True. Uhh...

Does wood sink in water?

No. No.
No, it floats! It floats!
Throw him into the pond!
The pond! Throw him into the pond!

What also floats in water?

Bread!
Apples!
Uh, very small rocks!
Cider!
Uh, gra-- gravy!
Cherries!
Mud!
Uh, churches! Churches!
Lead! Lead!

A duck!

Oooh.

Exactly. So, logically...

If... he... weighs... the same as a duck,... he's made of wood.

And therefore?

An offensive coordinator!

SteelerOfDeVille
05-17-2013, 12:48 PM
Tell me. What do you do with offensive coordinators?

Burn!
Burn!
Burn! Burn them up! Burn!...

And what do you burn apart from offensive coordinators?

More offensive coordinators!
Shh!
Wood!

So, why do offensive coordinators burn?

B--... 'cause they're made of... wood?

Good! Heh heh.

Oh, yeah. Oh.

So, how do we tell whether he is made of wood?

Build a bridge out of him.

Ah, but can you not also make bridges out of stone?

Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. True. Uhh...

Does wood sink in water?

No. No.
No, it floats! It floats!
Throw him into the pond!
The pond! Throw him into the pond!

What also floats in water?

Bread!
Apples!
Uh, very small rocks!
Cider!
Uh, gra-- gravy!
Cherries!
Mud!
Uh, churches! Churches!
Lead! Lead!

A duck!

Oooh.

Exactly. So, logically...

If... he... weighs... the same as a duck,... he's made of wood.

And therefore?

An offensive coordinator!

in that case... burn him!!

Oviedo
05-17-2013, 01:38 PM
Dink and dunk mean fewer sack, higher percentage, easy 1st down pickups.

"Magic" is easier when you arent facing 3rd and 10 or more all the time

Totally agree. The so called "dink and dunk" is a high probability of success offense that keeps the ball moving, gives us possession time and keeps the opposing defense on the field for long periods of time.

I would rather do that every play than see low probability of success long throws down the field.

feltdizz
05-17-2013, 01:39 PM
Dink and dunk mean fewer sack, higher percentage, easy 1st down pickups.

"Magic" is easier when you arent facing 3rd and 10 or more all the time

we didn't face 3rd and 10's all the time under BA and we definitely weren't in 3rd and 3's all the time with Haley.

Captain Lemming
05-17-2013, 02:02 PM
but, to say it has zero impact? that's like saying going from 12 games to 16 games wouldn't lead to more 1000-yard rushers... you'd be ignoring facts...

The benefit of the new rules are felt on shorter routes.
They make NO DIFFERENCE when a receiver gets behind coverage.
Shorter routes become even more higher percentage plays because the fear of getting hit and the ability to seperate the receiver from the ball via a big hit are reduced greatly.

Thus it is the combination of the rule changes AND playcalling THAT BEST TAKES ADVANTAGE of those changes that created Ben's fast start.

BA's play calling style benefits very little from the changes thus one could assume no great change in Ben's effectiveness based on rules.

Captain Lemming
05-17-2013, 02:10 PM
we didn't face 3rd and 10's all the time under BA and we definitely weren't in 3rd and 3's all the time with Haley.

You are absolutely correct, I agree.
Arians did dink and dunk versus NE and killed then with it. Then he went back to his normal playcalling.
Ben took shots at the deep ball too last season under Haley, which nobody mentions. Just less often.

What we are discussing are not absolutes but tendancies and hanging on to the ball to throw relatively low percentage bombs as a matter of routine leads to more sacks, lower percent completions and more frequent 3rd and very long scenarios. Ben had a lower percent of those, more easily converted 3rd and 3s and could dump to Miller ALL DAY LONG to convert.

Dizz, what amazes me is that you led the "Ben holds the ball too long" outcry forver, you know what I am saying.

Here Haley has implemented an offense that does what you in fact predicted (fewer sacks, check downs to get something etc) and you are now on the other side of the debate?

feltdizz
05-17-2013, 04:07 PM
You are absolutely correct, I agree.
Arians did dink and dunk versus NE and killed then with it. Then he went back to his normal playcalling.
Ben took shots at the deep ball too last season under Haley, which nobody mentions. Just less often.

What we are discussing are not absolutes but tendancies and hanging on to the ball to throw relatively low percentage bombs as a matter of routine leads to more sacks, lower percent completions and more frequent 3rd and very long scenarios. Ben had a lower percent of those, more easily converted 3rd and 3s and could dump to Miller ALL DAY LONG to convert.

Dizz, what amazes me is that you led the "Ben holds the ball too long" outcry forver, you know what I am saying.

Here Haley has implemented an offense that does what you in fact predicted (fewer sacks, check downs to get something etc) and you are now on the other side of the debate?

I was always a "take what the D gives" kind of guy...

The NE game plan wasn't dink and dunk... it was throwing to the wide open guy underneath instead of waiting until the DL was draped on his back.

I've always been a "get rid of it" when there is a wide open guy in the flat... however, this doesn't mean I didn't like the long pass routes and deep passes. I still think that's where Ben and the WR's excel. My issue has always been when Ben takes unnecessary hits or refuses to dump it off to a wide open guy in the flat because he wants the deep ball.

Captain Lemming
05-17-2013, 04:47 PM
The NE game plan wasn't dink and dunk... it was throwing to the wide open guy underneath instead of waiting until the DL was draped on his back.

No dizz, this was a gameplan.....Ben does not simply decide to NOT do what he does routinely on the fly.
Ben got the ball out of his hand quickly....DELIBERATELY.
He was not running around and dumping off as a last resort.

Here is the commentary at the time:

"Roethlisberger completed 36 of 50 pass attempts and threw for 365 yards and two touchdowns in a strong 25-17 victory. The headline of this game is how the Steelers had possession of the ball for over 39 minutes and simply kept Brady in check by keeping him off the field. The Steelers instead took a page out the New England’s playbook and used short quick passes to move the chains all day. The Steelers converted on 10 of 16 third down plays and kept Brady and company on the sideline. Brady finished with a season low 198 yards but still threw two touchdown passes."


This was a deliberate game plan to feature short passes.
It has to be that because it aint Ben's style of play. If it WAS Ben who "learned" to dump the ball quicker he would have kept at it.

And not surprisingly Ben was "magical" on third down that game too, when BA for once called a "Haleyesque" game.

flippy
05-17-2013, 05:09 PM
Totally agree. The so called "dink and dunk" is a high probability of success offense that keeps the ball moving, gives us possession time and keeps the opposing defense on the field for long periods of time.

I would rather do that every play than see low probability of success long throws down the field.

Dick Lebeau agrees with you from the perspective of this is the offense he wants his defense seeing week in and week out. Since he's been in the league, he's allowed teams to dink and dunk him to death to prevent the big play. Dinking and dunking keeps the other team in the game. Besides it's hard to dink and dunk in the RedZone.

I haven't written Haley off by any means, but I think DL's defense perfectly aligns with Ben/BA's style of play taking chances downfield on offense. I didn't really want to see Haley overhaul the good pieces out of the offense. I just wanted him to get on Ben's case to figure out how not to cross his fine line and keep him healthy. And I want to see an improved OLine and running game to support the good things Ben's capable of doing.

There's a lot of really good offenses that take a lot more shots down the field than we did with Haley/Ben. And the majority of those teams were in the playoffs.

I'm not convinced a Dink and Dunk offense really works for many QBs besides Tom Brady.

NorthCoast
05-19-2013, 08:57 AM
we didn't face 3rd and 10's all the time under BA and we definitely weren't in 3rd and 3's all the time with Haley.

The Steelers averaged 2x as many 3rd and >10 yds under BA vs Haley. Under BA Ben only completed about 55% of those passes.

Last season Ben completed an amazing 85% of passes on 3rd >10yds.

D Rock
05-19-2013, 09:57 AM
I don't really see the benefit of "keeping the other offense off the field" just from that perspective. Unless you work it out so that you have the last possession of each half, then the other team still has just as many opportunities to score points as you do.

It all comes down to effectiveness. The dink and dunk is effective, therefore it puts that team in at least field goal position more often than other offenses.

IMO, the only offense that nearly guarantees winning would be one that is capable of running some dink and dunk to get into FG range at least, and then has some home run hitters they can call on to get TD's from both inside and outside (20-35 yd range) of the redzone. You aren't going to win on time of possession alone, you are going to win by converting drives into points more often than the other team.

NorthCoast
05-19-2013, 01:06 PM
The Steelers averaged 2x as many 3rd and >10 yds under BA vs Haley. Under BA Ben only completed about 55% of those passes.

Last season Ben completed an amazing 85% of passes on 3rd >10yds.


And you might be tempted to think Mike Wallace was at the receiving end of those passes more often than not, and you would be wrong. Brown caught 6 for 94, Wallace 4 for 86.

feltdizz
05-20-2013, 10:34 AM
No dizz, this was a gameplan.....Ben does not simply decide to NOT do what he does routinely on the fly.
Ben got the ball out of his hand quickly....DELIBERATELY.
He was not running around and dumping off as a last resort.

Here is the commentary at the time:

"Roethlisberger completed 36 of 50 pass attempts and threw for 365 yards and two touchdowns in a strong 25-17 victory. The headline of this game is how the Steelers had possession of the ball for over 39 minutes and simply kept Brady in check by keeping him off the field. The Steelers instead took a page out the New England’s playbook and used short quick passes to move the chains all day. The Steelers converted on 10 of 16 third down plays and kept Brady and company on the sideline. Brady finished with a season low 198 yards but still threw two touchdown passes."


This was a deliberate game plan to feature short passes.
It has to be that because it aint Ben's style of play. If it WAS Ben who "learned" to dump the ball quicker he would have kept at it.

And not surprisingly Ben was "magical" on third down that game too, when BA for once called a "Haleyesque" game.

Hmm... I see your point. However, I still disagree with it. Using a different formula to beat NE after 5 or 6 games doesn't mean Haleyesque dink and dunk is the future. We finally changed our game plan on both sides of the ball and it worked vs NE... however, the Denver, Cowboys, TN and Cincinnati game left a bad taste in my mouth and it looked like teams had our game plan figured out.

I would love to think Haleyesque football means we do whatever it takes to win and switch up the formula based on the opponent but the AFCW looked like they had Haley figured out last year.

Slapstick
05-20-2013, 05:48 PM
It wasn't game plan, but execution...

Not only in the AFCN games last year, but also the NE game in 2011...

Captain Lemming
05-20-2013, 06:05 PM
Hmm... I see your point. However, I still disagree with it. Using a different formula to beat NE after 5 or 6 games doesn't mean Haleyesque dink and dunk is the future. We finally changed our game plan on both sides of the ball and it worked vs NE... however, the Denver, Cowboys, TN and Cincinnati game left a bad taste in my mouth and it looked like teams had our game plan figured out.

I would love to think Haleyesque football means we do whatever it takes to win and switch up the formula based on the opponent but the AFCW looked like they had Haley figured out last year.

Actually that is EXACTLY what Haley does.
His offense has looked completey different everywhere he has been, based on the peices available.

Sure Ben has an arm and Wallace was fast but we DONT have a great pass blocking oline. Thus the terndancy toward short passes.

He went from air Zona, to ground and pound KC, to what we had.
It was fine before the injury Dizz.

You mentioned the nati game. We did not do a dink and dunk at all.

Three deep passes to Wallace alone. Here are throws set Wallaces way that day:

1st quarter (6:26) (No Huddle) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep left to 17-M.Wallace. Coverage by #23 Newman.
2nd quarter (13:26) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass incomplete deep left to 17-M.Wallace. Coverage by #24 Jones.
3rd quarter(7:44) (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass short left to 17-M.Wallace to CIN 29 for 13 yards (24-A.Jones).
4th quarter (Shotgun) 7-B.Roethlisberger pass deep right intended for 17-M.Wallace INTERCEPTED by 20-R.Nelson at CIN 44.

Brown had a touchdown on a deep throw.

The Steelers Yards Per Completion of 16 that day would lead the league BY THREE YARDS if spread over a season DESPITE the deep drops that dont figue in.

Similarly the Cowboys AND Tenn games you metioned had a YPC that bested the league high average of 13.0 YPC of the unstoppable Panthers.
Of the games mentioned, only the Denver game was what one might call dink and dunk.

Captain Lemming
05-20-2013, 06:08 PM
It wasn't game plan, but execution...

Not only in the AFCN games last year, but also the NE game in 2011...

The Nati game had two stupid picks, fumbles, a missed field goal that cold have won it, Wallace was HORRIBLE etc.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
05-21-2013, 01:52 AM
The Nati game had two stupid picks, fumbles, a missed field goal that cold have won it, Wallace was HORRIBLE etc.

And add to the fact that when the new offense was being installed.....our deep threat was not there.

SteelerOfDeVille
05-22-2013, 10:13 AM
As a reminder... Ben didn't like it either...


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000205279/article/ben-roethlisberger-likes-steelers-revamped-offense (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000205279/article/ben-roethlisberger-likes-steelers-revamped-offense)

Ben Roethlisberger (http://www.planetsteelers.com/player/benroethlisberger/2506109/profile) didn't love the Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.planetsteelers.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT)' offense last season under new coordinator Todd Haley (http://www.planetsteelers.com/player/toddhaley/2515611/profile).
After a mediocre season and a poor offensive performance, the Steelers (http://www.planetsteelers.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT) haven't just changed offensive personnel, they've tweaked the playbook. And Big Ben (http://www.nfl.com/player/benroethlisberger/2506109/profile) is happy to see those changes.

"There's been some changes this offseason in some of the offensive philosophies, playbook and some things that I think are good," Roethlisberger said Tuesday via the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review (http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/4053516-74/offense-roethlisberger-steelers#axzz2U11dWwdm). "It's some compromise from all the different position coaches, the running back coaches, the line, and quarterback coaches. I think we've taken a little bit of everything and made it a lot better."

Last year, Roethlisberger was vocally critical of what he called a "dink-and-dunk (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000082583/article/ben-roethlisberger-steelers-offense-dink-and-dunk)" offense. His frustration boiled over after (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000113063/article/ben-roethlisberger-questions-steelers-playcalling) a December loss to the Dallas Cowboys (http://www.planetsteelers.com/teams/dallascowboys/profile?team=DAL), when he questioned the play calling.

Entering his 10th season with the Steelers (http://www.planetsteelers.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT), Roethlisberger wouldn't let on to exactly what sort of changes were made to the offense -- throwing vertical more frequently?

"You'll have to wait until the first game," he said.

Of course Ben was asked about life without wide receiver Mike Wallace (http://www.planetsteelers.com/player/mikewallace/2507763/profile), but sounded ready to focus on the revamped playbook.
"Obviously, we're going to miss Mike as a person, friend and teammate," Roethlisberger said. "(But) we've got to be ready to move on."

Slapstick
05-22-2013, 10:35 AM
"There's been some changes this offseason in some of the offensive philosophies, playbook and some things that I think are good," Roethlisberger said Tuesday via the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review (http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/4053516-74/offense-roethlisberger-steelers#axzz2U11dWwdm). "It's some compromise from all the different position coaches, the running back coaches, the line, and quarterback coaches. I think we've taken a little bit of everything and made it a lot better."


Kugler and Montgomery are gone...

Coincidence?

SteelerOfDeVille
05-22-2013, 12:20 PM
the point is, your franchise QB doesn't like your system and calls it ineffective, it's ineffective. u guys can argue to the contrary all you want, but, Ben's opinion trumps every one of ya.

Captain Lemming
05-22-2013, 06:31 PM
the point is, your franchise QB doesn't like your system and calls it ineffective, it's ineffective. u guys can argue to the contrary all you want, but, Ben's opinion trumps every one of ya.

No argument that Ben has a say and we dont but I HOPE we DONT change just to please Ben.

Ben also disliked the playcalling of the coaches who produced the Steelers best regular season record with Ben as QB in 2004 and his best playoff run in 2005.
Ben would call for a big receiver and had smurfs excel while being nothing but complimentary of his putrid oline.

Ben complained about dink and dunk after the Cowboy game? Really?

His first pass was an incomplete bomb to Wallace
Threw a second incomplete deep ball to Wallace on second possesion of the game
Completed a 60 yard bomb to Wallace in the third.
Ben completed 24 passes for 339 yards.....Dink and dunk?

Does Ben need to throw deep on every play to be happy?
We lost because of "dink and dunk?"
How bout being ties a 24 in OT and throwing a HORRIBLE lame duck pass to Wallace that is picked and return to the ONE for a gimme Cowboy FG to win the game?

Dude has a unique skill set and can do things no one else can do, but football smarts aint what makes Ben great.

NorthCoast
05-22-2013, 06:35 PM
the point is, your franchise QB doesn't like your system and calls it ineffective, it's ineffective. u guys can argue to the contrary all you want, but, Ben's opinion trumps every one of ya.

This is true. But only because the QB can make it ineffective, whether it is in reality or not.