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steelerkeylargo
04-19-2013, 04:31 PM
Espn The Mag. Has an article devoted to laying out the best and worst drafting teams. It is based off a statistical formula and the Steelers are second only to GB since 1994.

Jigawatts
04-19-2013, 04:44 PM
2008 stings just a little.

Jooser
04-19-2013, 05:24 PM
2008 stings just a little.

yup--- yup.

squidkid
04-19-2013, 05:29 PM
what was the criteria?

feltdizz
04-19-2013, 05:36 PM
what was the criteria?

Yep... if it doesnt have revisionist history and fan bias I dont trust it.

Steelhere10
04-19-2013, 06:20 PM
Yep... if it doesnt have revisionist history and fan bias I dont trust it.lol:p:p:p Too funny

papillon
04-19-2013, 07:11 PM
I think the 2009 draft only has 2 players left on the team and one of them is Hood and he could be done after the upcoming year.

Pappy

squidkid
04-19-2013, 07:25 PM
Yep... if it doesnt have revisionist history and fan bias I dont trust it.

you prefer blind homerism as a criiteria, i see

Oviedo
04-19-2013, 08:16 PM
Espn The Mag. Has an article devoted to laying out the best and worst drafting teams. It is based off a statistical formula and the Steelers are second only to GB since 1994.

How could that posibly be given Colbert and Tomlin are so bad at their jobs?

flippy
04-19-2013, 08:17 PM
Espn The Mag. Has an article devoted to laying out the best and worst drafting teams. It is based off a statistical formula and the Steelers are second only to GB since 1994.

We've been questioning their ability since Tomlin arrived and the old man headed to Ireland. They were fine way back then.

BigRob
04-19-2013, 08:22 PM
I think the 2009 draft only has 2 players left on the team and one of them is Hood and he could be done after the upcoming year.

Pappy

That doesn't make it a bad draft.

Mister Pittsburgh
04-19-2013, 09:28 PM
Espn The Mag. Has an article devoted to laying out the best and worst drafting teams. It is based off a statistical formula and the Steelers are second only to GB since 1994.

I don't think anyone would argue we drafted well from 94 to around 04, or essentially the drafts that formed our Superbowl teams. It has been the last 8 or 9 years of that 19 year window that fans question, especially since Tomlin took over.

feltdizz
04-19-2013, 09:40 PM
you prefer blind homerism as a criiteria, i see

I prefer to view it as a list created by ESPN... are they homers? Is it really that far fetched for a team who rarely uses free agency, builds through the draft and has been to 4 SB's and lost another 3 or 4 AFCC's to be #1?

papillon
04-19-2013, 09:49 PM
That doesn't make it a bad draft.

Ziggy Hood and David Johnson, that's it, that can't possibly be a good draft, can it? I've heard Hood rated as the 29th out of 32, 3-4 DEs and I don't know where you put Johnson. Difficult for me not to rate that as a bad draft.

Pappy

flippy
04-19-2013, 09:53 PM
Ziggy Hood and David Johnson, that's it, that can't possibly be a good draft, can it? I've heard Hood rated as the 29th out of 32, 3-4 DEs and I don't know where you put Johnson. Difficult for me not to rate that as a bad draft.

Pappy

It sure beats 2008 by a long shot.

papillon
04-19-2013, 09:57 PM
It sure beats 2008 by a long shot.

I'm not certain it beats 2008 by a long shot, there is a real possibility that Johnson won't make it out of camp if the Steelers draft a TE in rounds 1, 2 or 3 and that will leave Evander, and then there was one.

It's hard to believe that out of two draft classes there are currently 2 players still on the team and a real possibility only one before training camp ends.

Pappy

flippy
04-19-2013, 09:59 PM
Since Mike T took over we have:

07 - 4 players
08 - 0
09 - 2
10 - 6
11 - 6
12 - 6

That's 6 years and only 2 guys that are really special in Timmy and Woodley. Might be a couple more players that develop. But all in all, we're not getting the stud players year in and year out like we did leading up to Tomlin's tenure.

Ghost
04-19-2013, 10:12 PM
Ziggy Hood and David Johnson, that's it, that can't possibly be a good draft, can it? I've heard Hood rated as the 29th out of 32, 3-4 DEs and I don't know where you put Johnson. Difficult for me not to rate that as a bad draft.

Pappy

Of course it's not a good draft. You are correct - it downright sucks. A DE that's not even mediocre and a TE that was easily replaced by an undrafted FA who's much better. 2009 was a total bust as was 2008.

papillon
04-19-2013, 10:18 PM
Of course it's not a good draft. You are correct - it downright sucks. A DE that's not even mediocre and a TE that was easily replaced by an undrafted FA who's much better. 2009 was a total bust as was 2008.

The worst part about the 2008 and 2009 drafts are that players from these drafts should be forming the core of the team moving forward and there aren't any players with which to form the core.

Pappy

Ghost
04-19-2013, 10:27 PM
We should be watching a group of guys who are ready to kick a$$ and chew bubblegum, and they are all out of bubblegum. Instead 4 and 5 years later we don't have any players who should be in their prime. Back to back years of total failure.

grotonsteel
04-20-2013, 06:57 AM
The worst part about the 2008 and 2009 drafts are that players from these drafts should be forming the core of the team moving forward and there aren't any players with which to form the core.

Pappy

Each draft failure sets you back by 2-3 years IMO especially for a team who don't do much during FA...

Ravens too had few bad drafts but they hit gold in FA...Flacco and Rice draft was great for them..

CheriseFastic
04-20-2013, 07:54 AM
Sometimes drafts lack the confidence of victory but team spirit works well to perform good and bag the win.

Steelerphile
04-20-2013, 08:32 AM
Ziggy Hood and David Johnson, that's it, that can't possibly be a good draft, can it? I've heard Hood rated as the 29th out of 32, 3-4 DEs and I don't know where you put Johnson. Difficult for me not to rate that as a bad draft.

Pappy
Yes it is a good draft. Hood, Urbik, Wallace, Lewis and Johnson. All in the NFL. Most are starters. Urbik, cut; Wallace and Lewis, chose to leave. Still they selected five players that are either very good or solid NFL players. That is a better than average.

Keyplay1
04-20-2013, 09:04 AM
I don't think anyone would argue we drafted well from 94 to around 04, or essentially the drafts that formed our Superbowl teams. It has been the last 8 or 9 years of that 19 year window that fans question, especially since Tomlin took over.

It is hard to believe GB closed the gap and took the lead from TS, who were #1 from 1991 to 2004.

I was looking for some info on prospect visits in the 2011 season and saw this article by Bouchette in the PG. The stats are compiled by draftmetrics.com.

in determining a team's draft efficiency, he considered the number of players who became five-year starters, those who made the Pro Bowl at least once (he must be an original selection and not make it through another's injury) and the number of draftees who were All-Pros at least once. He included the drafts from 1991 through 2004.
You'll never guess which team came out on top. The Steelers earned a 17.6 rating in that system as the NFL's most efficient organization at drafting. They left second-place Green Bay far behind at 11.3. Other top teams were New England at 7.7, Indianapolis at 6.4 and Seattle at 5.8. All have been to one or more Super Bowls over the past 10 years. Bringing up the rear were San Diego at minus-9.5 and Detroit at minus-9.1.

Considering TS really drafted well in 05, 06, and 07 it is surprising GB took the lead. Of course, how ESPN got their results is not known. Obviously, a few sub-par years change things. But, that is all water under the bridge. This year the draft pools are said to be deep. Let's see what happens.

Keyplay1
04-20-2013, 09:07 AM
Oops! Forgot to hit the plain text thing.in determining a team's draft efficiency, he considered the number of players who became five-year starters, those who made the Pro Bowl at least once (he must be an original selection and not make it through another's injury) and the number of draftees who were All-Pros at least once. He included the drafts from 1991 through 2004.
You'll never guess which team came out on top. The Steelers earned a 17.6 rating in that system as the NFL's most efficient organization at drafting. They left second-place Green Bay far behind at 11.3. Other top teams were New England at 7.7, Indianapolis at 6.4 and Seattle at 5.8. All have been to one or more Super Bowls over the past 10 years. Bringing up the rear were San Diego at minus-9.5 and Detroit at minus-9.1.


Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/looking-at-the-nfl-draft-history-by-the-numbers-294686/#ixzz2R0IS5CKS

NorthCoast
04-20-2013, 09:14 AM
Uhh, newsflash; both 2008 and 2009 were poor in talent league-wide! Take a look at the entire class and see who is still on rosters. It happens...

phillyesq
04-20-2013, 11:37 AM
How could that posibly be given Colbert and Tomlin are so bad at their jobs?

Kindly explain the influence that Tomlin had on the 1994 draft.

phillyesq
04-20-2013, 11:47 AM
Since Mike T took over we have:

07 - 4 players
08 - 0
09 - 2
10 - 6
11 - 6
12 - 6

That's 6 years and only 2 guys that are really special in Timmy and Woodley. Might be a couple more players that develop. But all in all, we're not getting the stud players year in and year out like we did leading up to Tomlin's tenure.

The last first round picks of Cowher's tenure were:

Burress
Hampton
Simmons
Troy
Ben
Heath
Santonio

Simmons was probably the worst of those due to the diabetes holding him back, but despite that, ended up as a starter for a number of years, including on a SB team.

The best first round picks of Tomlin's era were Timmons and Pouncey, but after that, you end up question marks and average to below-average starters. I'm not giving up on DD or Heyward, but at this point, they are still question marks.

From a talent perspective, Wallace and Lewis were both great picks in 2009. Even Urbik has contributed in the league as a starter. The problem is that they are no longer contributing for the Steelers.

The Steelers successful run was based on a combination of not missing on first rounders and hitting some home runs in the later rounds (Ward, Smith, Porter, Keisel, FWP, Harrison, Taylor, etc.). Now, the first rounders are not giving you what you need and the later round successes are fewer.

Mister Pittsburgh
04-20-2013, 02:27 PM
Drafting 3-4 DE in the first round is moronic.

hausparty
04-21-2013, 05:08 AM
The last first round picks of Cowher's tenure were:

Burress (Selected 8th)
Hampton (Selcted 19th)
Timmons (Selected 15th)
Troy (16th overall)
Ben (11th Overall)
Heath (13th pick)
Santonio (25th pick)

Way to go COWHER for picking STUDS with the 20th pick or lower. Last time I checked having a top 20 pick basically means you didnt go very far in the playoffs. Some I'm really glad Cowher had solid picks with some really high draft picks. Tomlin hasnt really had the joy of sucking this many years in a row to build up picks #20 or lower. I'm no expert but I do believe all the good players are gone when it comes to picks 31 and 32. LOL

Success is what decreases your odds of landing a good player guys. I mean lets keep it real here. This is why they allow the really bad teams to pick 1st every year. LOL

hausparty
04-21-2013, 05:11 AM
The last first round picks of Cowher's tenure were:

Burress (Selected 8th)
Hampton (Selcted 19th)
Timmons (Selected 15th)
Troy (16th overall)
Ben (11th Overall)
Heath (13th pick)
Santonio (25th pick)


Way to go COWHER for picking STUDS with the 20th pick or lower. Last time I checked having a top 20 pick basically means you didnt make the playoffs or lost very EARLY. So I'm really glad Cowher had solid picks with some really high draft selections. Tomlin hasnt really had the joy of sucking this many years in a row to build up picks #20 or lower. I'm no expert but I do believe all the good players are gone when it comes to picks 31 and 32. LOL

Success is what decreases your odds of landing a good player guys. I mean lets keep it real and pretty simple here, we all play fantasy football and get that low draft pick on occassion. (IT SUCKS). This is why they allow the really bad teams to pick 1st every year. LOL

hausparty
04-21-2013, 05:22 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1591220-studs-and-duds-of-the-pittsburgh-steelers-last-5-draft-classes

papillon
04-21-2013, 07:09 AM
Yes it is a good draft. Hood, Urbik, Wallace, Lewis and Johnson. All in the NFL. Most are starters. Urbik, cut; Wallace and Lewis, chose to leave. Still they selected five players that are either very good or solid NFL players. That is a better than average.

They're not starters for the Steelers, so regardless of their play, the drafts as far as the Steelers are concerned was bad. You draft players hoping to develop and keep them on your roster, not develop and then let them play for another team during their prime. Draft years 2008 and 2009 are dismal failures and, IMO, Steeler fans will feel the burden of those bad drafts this season and probably next as well.P

Pappy

NorthCoast
04-21-2013, 09:25 AM
Much easier to keep marquee players in the Cowher era compared to free agency of today. The team had the luxury of knowing they could sign players to that second contract. Now they have to compete for the up and comers, don't think for one minute Denver didnt want to keep Dumervil or Baltimore keep Kruger. It's really tough with other teams poaching players that are just starting to emerge.

phillyesq
04-21-2013, 09:44 AM
The last first round picks of Cowher's tenure were:

Burress (Selected 8th)
Hampton (Selcted 19th)
Timmons (Selected 15th)
Troy (16th overall)
Ben (11th Overall)
Heath (13th pick)
Santonio (25th pick)

Way to go COWHER for picking STUDS with the 20th pick or lower. Last time I checked having a top 20 pick basically means you didnt go very far in the playoffs. Some I'm really glad Cowher had solid picks with some really high draft picks. Tomlin hasnt really had the joy of sucking this many years in a row to build up picks #20 or lower. I'm no expert but I do believe all the good players are gone when it comes to picks 31 and 32. LOL

Success is what decreases your odds of landing a good player guys. I mean lets keep it real here. This is why they allow the really bad teams to pick 1st every year. LOL

Heath Miller was picked 13th? Timmons was picked in the Cowher era?

Chadman
04-21-2013, 09:50 AM
This argument that Tomlin/Colbert are bad 'drafters' does make Chadman smile a little bit.

2007- Lawrence Timmons, Lamaar Woodley, Matt Speath, Dan Sepulveda & Willie Gay have, and are still, contributing in the NFL. Even Ryan McBean found a niche at Denver. Only Cam Stephenson & Dallas Baker never really made it- a 5th & 7th round pick. You can argue that Sepulveda was overdrafted- Chadman will agree- but it was injury, not ability that curtailed his career, and Willie Gay has chiselled out a nice career of starting or being the nickle CB for a 5th round pick.

2008- Mendenhall was really the only 'good' pick here. Why people continue to call him a 'bust' is confusing. Check your record books, find out where Mendy is placed on the all-time Steelers RB list. And consider that 2 of his seasons in Pittsburgh were injury write-offs. Sweed was a bust, as was Davis. Hills never came on. Dixon isn't that bad a player. Humpal... didn't make it out of camp. For a late 6th round pick, Ryan Mundy wasn't bad value.

2009- Ziggy Hood has started 3 years on one of the highest ranked Defenses in the NFL. Mike Wallace was an extremely productive player in a short time for the Steelers. Lewis developed into a starting CB. David Johnson held a starting job for a couple of years- not bad for a 7th round pick. Urbik & Shipley are still in the NFL- Urbik is a starter. How this draft can be considered a 'bust' is beyond comprehension.

2010- Pouncey, Worilds, Sanders, Dwyer & Brown are all starters for the Steelers in 2013. Sylvester was brought back this year. Thad Gibson is still bouncing around the NFL. Doug Worthington landed in Washington. Only Butler & Chris Scott never did much. This should be considered a good draft- value for some very late picks like Dwyer & Brown.

2011- Heyward hasn't moved past Brett Keisel yet, Gilbert was a Year 1 starter, Allen has contributed & moves into a starting role in 2013, Brown hasn't come on as hoped. Carter is entrenched as a back-up OLB. Batch is still on the roster. Only Keith Williams never made it here.

2012- DeCastro, Adams, Paulson & Beachum contributed in year 1, as did Chris Rainey. Spence hurt himself after standing out in pre-season practice. Ta'amu is the #2 NT on the roster. Only Clemons & Frederick never made it.

From Chadman's count, that's 14 STARTERS that have come out of Tomlin drafts, not including a few that will become starters in 2013.

The problem isn't drafting. It's retention.

phillyesq
04-21-2013, 10:03 AM
The problem isn't drafting. It's retention.

Chadman, you do have a point on retention. The talent from 2009 was very good; the retention was awful. Ironically, one of the 2 guys left from 2009 is Ziggy Hood, who is an incredible disappointment for a first round pick. Yes, he is a starter, but he has not even played up to the level of KVO. He has been perhaps marginally better than Nick Eason. Comparing pick for pick from the late Cowher era, he's probably around the same level as Kendall Simmons.

If DD and Heyward both come on very strong this year, my opinion of the first round picks in the Tomlin era will change, but for now, they have been a step down from the picks that the Steelers made in the first round that were a large part of the core of this team's success.