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Captain Lemming
02-14-2013, 06:18 PM
Do you who say JHs play has declined wacth his play at seasons end? Dude was a beast.

He is STILL our best OLBer, and only Timmons can compare to a 35 year old Harrison among ALL our LBers.


When JH was out our defense was absolutely pathetic. With JH back we climbed back to number one.

He had a sack in 5 of the last seven games, with two strip fumbles created. He had 11 tackles in the last game of the season.


Woodley by comparison had around HALF the tackles that Harrison had.


Harrison bested Woodleys CAREER HIGH for tackles in a season where he missed September and came back slowly in October.


Aging Harrison had more total tackles (70) than ANY probowl OLBer in a season when he MISSED A MONTH.


Clay Matthews, a probowler in his prime in full health had 43 tackles compared to Harrisons 70.


Aging injured JH is STILL the best run stopping 3/4 OLBER in this league bar none, and he closed the season with a sack in 5 of 7 games an elite pass rush level by any standard.


You think we got guys on the bench who can replace that when PROWBOWLERS cant do what an aging JH does routinely.

At seasons end JH was ALL THE WAY BACK to form, on par with ANY OLBer

His PLAY is not suspect at all.

Recurring Injury is the only concern.

If his old injuries test as sound I say pay the man.

If you are in full rebuild mold let him go. We are going nowhere w/o him next year.

This defense is nothing w/o him, the facts show it.

mr.me
02-14-2013, 06:22 PM
i agree,i think they should cut wood,he acts as if he doesnt care

pittpete
02-14-2013, 06:32 PM
Yes, I think an aging 35 year old LBer with knee problems and multiple spine surgeries will only continue to get better with age.
Definitely worth a $10 million cap hit this year.
sarcasm off-

squidkid
02-14-2013, 06:32 PM
i would feel for harrison if he didnt take otas, mini camp and half the season off 'rehabbing' and injury that he could have taken care of after the denver playoff chokejob. if he gets cut or asked to take less its his own fault for wanting to vacation instead of workout.

Captain Lemming
02-14-2013, 06:37 PM
i would feel for harrison if he didnt take otas, mini camp and half the season off 'rehabbing' and injury that he could have taken care of after the denver playoff chokejob. if he gets cut or asked to take less its his own fault for wanting to vacation instead of workout.

Yes, what a lazy bum he is. He needs to learn a thing or two from Woodley about working out. :rolleyes:

Captain Lemming
02-14-2013, 06:41 PM
Yes, I think an aging 35 year old LBer with knee problems and multiple spine surgeries will only continue to get better with age.
sarcasm off-

That is what I saw as the season went on. He was getting better. By seasons end he looked better than he had in recent years.

Hey do the tests, but if his repairs look as healed as his play showed at seasons end, yeah pay him.

BradshawsHairdresser
02-14-2013, 06:47 PM
I agree, he was playing well at season's end. Some posters on this board will vehemently deny it, but I agree with you about his performance, and believe it was a real key to the defensive improvement over the last half of the season.

Even with that, however, the $10 million cap hit may be too much for this team, which has so many areas of concern.
With all the other contracts to take care of, I'm not sure they can re-structure James' enough to keep him around...I think that James will have to take a drastic pay-cut or else he will be playing somewhere else next season.

Captain Lemming
02-14-2013, 06:57 PM
I agree, he was playing well at season's end. Some posters on this board will vehemently deny it, but I agree with you about his performance, and believe it was a real key to the defensive improvement over the last half of the season.

Even with that, however, the $10 million cap hit may be too much for this team, which has so many areas of concern.
With all the other contracts to take care of, I'm not sure they can re-structure James' enough to keep him around...I think that James will have to take a drastic pay-cut or else he will be playing somewhere else next season.

I see your point, it might be the reality, I hope some compromise is possible, but it is hard to restructure his deal to save much w/o it being a ridiculous lowball.

But those who think the JH of seasons end (never mind years ago) will be easy to replace are simply unaware of his value to this team.

BigRob
02-14-2013, 07:02 PM
I agree, he was playing well at season's end. Some posters on this board will vehemently deny it, but I agree with you about his performance, and believe it was a real key to the defensive improvement over the last half of the season.

You'll be hard pressed to find anyone with an objective opinion agree with you. PFF and other services would tell you he did help the run defense. However, according to PFF he delivered very little pressure in the passing game. He suffered even worse when asked to play coverage (a requirement for an OLB in the zone blitz scheme).



Even with that, however, the $10 million cap hit may be too much for this team, which has so many areas of concern.
With all the other contracts to take care of, I'm not sure they can re-structure James' enough to keep him around...I think that James will have to take a drastic pay-cut or else he will be playing somewhere else next season.

This is reasonable, but I highly doubt it happens. He's 35 and they need to see if Worilds can take the next step. I would love to see him brought to camp. Would would perhaps see if Worilds can beat him out in a camp competition.

But this is highly unlikely as well.

Chadman
02-14-2013, 07:51 PM
It's hard to argue that the Steelers will be 'better' if Harrison is removed from the roster.

It's only the Cap figure that makes him a release target- not the level of his play.

AkronSteel
02-14-2013, 07:53 PM
I agree that JH was playing a well at the end of the season, but that still doesn't make him worth 8-10 million per season. I'm sure the team would love to keep him but he realistically cannot be afforded unless he is willing to give a hometown discount. Woodley is not playing up to his worth either but it would actually cost the team money against the cap to cut him. He needs to step up his game big time and so does Jason Worilds because he is going to see a lot more playing time come 2013.

Chadman
02-14-2013, 08:05 PM
I agree that JH was playing a well at the end of the season, but that still doesn't make him worth 8-10 million per season. I'm sure the team would love to keep him but he realistically cannot be afforded unless he is willing to give a hometown discount. Woodley is not playing up to his worth either but it would actually cost the team money against the cap to cut him. He needs to step up his game big time and so does Jason Worilds because he is going to see a lot more playing time come 2013.

To be honest- you might have just mentioned the biggest issue, and also potentially the biggest reason the Steelers can overcome a salary cap purge.

Guys like Woodley, guys like Hood, Heyward, Antonio Brown... these are guys that are long-term signed Steelers. It's from THESE guys that the Steelers can overcome adversity- not from the James Harrison's, Troy Polamalu's or Ryan Clark's. We know what the old guys can offer, can produce. If anything, age will mean they offer less. It's the yonger guys- if they can step up their game, the Steelers can overcome.

But if they produce like they did last season- this team won't cope with a salary cap purge.

BradshawsHairdresser
02-14-2013, 09:42 PM
You'll be hard pressed to find anyone with an objective opinion agree with you. PFF and other services would tell you he did help the run defense. However, according to PFF he delivered very little pressure in the passing game. He suffered even worse when asked to play coverage (a requirement for an OLB in the zone blitz scheme).

This is reasonable, but I highly doubt it happens. He's 35 and they need to see if Worilds can take the next step. I would love to see him brought to camp. Would would perhaps see if Worilds can beat him out in a camp competition.

But this is highly unlikely as well.

Harrison is still one of the best run-defending OLBs in the league. 70 tackles isn't shabby, even if you don't consider the effects of the injury the first half of the season. As far as pressure in the passing game, don't you think it became easier for teams to take away his effectiveness because there wasn't anyone else they had to worry much about? I do believe his coverage skills have eroded somewhat, but his teammate on the other side is not exactly a fleet-footed wonder--nor is Worilds, for that matter. Perhaps it will be different next season, but I don't think you would find anyone with an "objective opinion" who would think that Worilds was good enough to beat out Harrison last season. If you went merely by last season's level of play, it is Woodley, not Harrison, who ought to be concerned about getting beat out by Worilds.

Again, though, his current contract is what I think will end up ending James' tenure with the Steelers. I think I read that 10 Steelers take up $100 million in salaries, which amounts to most of the cap. They simply will have to cut some of their big-money players. They will likely end up keeping expensive players like Colon and Woodley and letting players like Harrison go simply because of the cap implications going forward (they can save almost all of Harrison's cost against the cap by cutting him, whereas they would take a substantial hit if they cut some of the others).

papillon
02-14-2013, 09:55 PM
Cap I'm with you 100% and have been extolling James Harrison's importance to the defense in another thread. The reality is the Steelers have to clear space and he's simply too old and too expensive to keep around without a severe discount from James. He's right up there with Lambert on my all time favorite list, because of his attitude, work ethic and disdain for Goodell, not to mention his production over the past 5-6 years.

Unfortunately, the numbers don't add up in his favor and it is sad that a 34 year OLB is the best OLB on the team and had Timmons not stepped up this year he would have been the best LB on the team and he's still in the top 10 league wide in my opinion. He'll play somewhere next year, not with the Steelers unfortunately.

Pappy

Mister Pittsburgh
02-14-2013, 10:27 PM
Harrison is the man. If we can keep him and do better than 8-8 I am for keeping him.

Shoe
02-14-2013, 10:33 PM
No one who's lived with the GREAT James Harrison would object to giving him an extra year to come back. The problem with that is that a player like Harrison requires a multi-year commitment, something anyone with any sense would've be willing to give to a 35-year old guy coming off back and knee (two of the worst injuries) injuries... not to mention a team with cap difficulties.

pittpete
02-14-2013, 11:41 PM
It's hard to argue that the Steelers will be 'better' if Harrison is removed from the roster.

It's only the Cap figure that makes him a release target- not the level of his play.

Not 100% true
His level of play plus his chance of reinjury makes him a release target.
4 years ago & I don't think any of us would be having this conversation

supersteeler
02-15-2013, 07:29 AM
Gerry: Harrison really doesn't have much leverage Thursday, 14 February 2013 15:42 Written by Gerry Dulac James Harrison has said he wonít take a pay cut to play for the Steelers in 2013, as though he has some leverage in the matter.

But he really doesnít.

Harrison has two years remaining on a contract he signed in 2009 and is scheduled to make $6.57 million next season and $7.575 million in 2014. He said he has renegotiated his contract twice in the past to help the Steelers get under the salary cap in recent years.

Letís say the Steelers tell Harrison he has to take a pay cut of $3.5 million Ė the amount nose tackle Casey Hampton had to take last season?

Does Harrison refuse?

If he does, he has to consider this: Is there another NFL team out there willing to pay him $3 million next season?
Will someone pay him -- at age 35, with his body breaking down Ė as much as the Steelers were offering? After a season in which he had only six sacks?

Maybe there is. But, maybe, there isnít.

Then Harrison has no other option. He can either accept the Steelers offer and play one more season at a reduced rate. Or he can be released and hope some team is willing to pay him the amount he refused in the first place from the Steelers.

Itís a gamble Casey Hampton didnít take. And one Iím not so sure Harrison will take, either.


Are we assuming too much? I don't know if it's a done deal that he's gone until we get the official word. The article has a point in that who would pay him more than lets say 3 mill a year. There could be a team out there but at his age and injury history recently they may be reluctant to pay him. There is still a chance James could be playing for us in 2013 but it depends on him.

papillon
02-15-2013, 08:03 AM
A team with cap space and a need for a top 5 ROLB in a 34 defense and is willing to take a one year risk that's the team that will sign him. He'd be worth 3 million for a year plus a bonus. He played 13 games and stays in shape, he went into the off season healthy. I believe he'll get through a 16 game season without major injury and some team will be getting some real attitude to their defense.

Pappy

Slapstick
02-15-2013, 09:05 AM
A team with cap space and a need for a top 5 ROLB in a 34 defense and is willing to take a one year risk that's the team that will sign him. He'd be worth 3 million for a year plus a bonus. He played 13 games and stays in shape, he went into the off season healthy. I believe he'll get through a 16 game season without major injury and some team will be getting some real attitude to their defense.

Pappy

I'm not so certain...in a perfect world for James, that would be the case...

I'm not confident at all that the world will be perfect...

phillyesq
02-15-2013, 09:46 AM
A team with cap space and a need for a top 5 ROLB in a 34 defense and is willing to take a one year risk that's the team that will sign him. He'd be worth 3 million for a year plus a bonus. He played 13 games and stays in shape, he went into the off season healthy. I believe he'll get through a 16 game season without major injury and some team will be getting some real attitude to their defense.

Pappy

The Browns have an insane amount of cap space, among other teams. The Eagles have a ton of cap space and could use some nasty. There are plenty of teams that could give James 5 or even 6 million for a year or two.

I'm one of those who thinks the Steelers defense will be a lot worse without James Harrison. Worilds is touted as a replacement, but he gets banged up all the time. Staying healthy is a skill, and one that he does not seem to have.

If there was a way to restructure Harrison, I'd love to see it happen. Perhaps a pay cut this year in exchange for guaranteeing his salary and then adding on a third year to spread the hit of his restructured bonus, something along those lines.

After Harrison was not restructured last year, I feared that it was a precursor to his release this offseason (as there is less dead money). I fear that that is the most likely result, but I'm still holding out some optimism.

squidkid
02-15-2013, 09:55 AM
He said he has renegotiated his contract twice in the past to help the Steelers get under the salary cap in recent years.


i laugh evrytime i read crap like this. is anybody out there stupid enough to believe that the player actually gave up something to help the team out cap-wise?

'hey james, can you help us out here'
'whats up'
'would you be willing to restructure your contract?"
'maybe. how?'
'quite simple. instead of you having to wait 5 years to collect 10 millions dollars, we will give all of it to you right now. no strings attached. yours forever even if you get hurt or released'
'well, i'm not sure i want that guaranteed money, but if it helps the team i'll do it.

feltdizz
02-15-2013, 10:46 AM
He said he has renegotiated his contract twice in the past to help the Steelers get under the salary cap in recent years.


i laugh evrytime i read crap like this. is anybody out there stupid enough to believe that the player actually gave up something to help the team out cap-wise?

'hey james, can you help us out here'
'whats up'
'would you be willing to restructure your contract?"
'maybe. how?'
'quite simple. instead of you having to wait 5 years to collect 10 millions dollars, we will give all of it to you right now. no strings attached. yours forever even if you get hurt or released'
'well, i'm not sure i want that guaranteed money, but if it helps the team i'll do it.

I agree... it's crazy for the FO and the player to benefit from a restructure. Someone has to get screwed... was it the fans?

Slapstick
02-15-2013, 10:56 AM
The Browns have an insane amount of cap space, among other teams. The Eagles have a ton of cap space and could use some nasty. There are plenty of teams that could give James 5 or even 6 million for a year or two.


That is true, but WILL those teams give a 35 year old, oft injured player 5-6 million for a year or two?

I have strong doubts...

feltdizz
02-15-2013, 11:20 AM
That is true, but WILL those teams give a 35 year old, oft injured player 5-6 million for a year or two?

I have strong doubts...

I've seen these teams give much worse players more money... I could see it happening. All it takes is one team.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
02-15-2013, 12:08 PM
I'm one & I will take this head on.

I do watch the games. At least twice. Once as a fan like everyone else and then other times to evaluate. I will tell you this, after the season ended I went back and watched every game from Blatimore 2 to the end. All intensions were to look at our front seven because 4 of them are coming to the end.

Harrison just got stiff. His body doesn't have the ability to flex to be an edge rusher. Back & knee injuries combined with a stout maxed out frame at 35 has caught up to him. Your body has to be able to get into a proper angle to use your leverage to gain the upfield shoulder of the LT and rip. If you lose your ankle deflection, strength in knees to power through force at an angle, and the back strength to maintain leverage when engaged...It goes downhill fast. Harrison is a blunt downhill pass rusher right now. If a LT gets his punch in on Harrison's shoulders and moves his feet upfield, Harrison folds and is re-routed. He loses the leverage battle before he could rip under. He has become more of a motor rush and hoping he can out quick the LT by showing him enough inside counters & bull rushes. I luv Harrison and what he did for the Steelers. The arrow is pointing in the wrong direction on him.

I keep hearing the "He had a sack in 5 of the last seven games, with two strip fumbles created." "Defense terrible in the begining and better when he came back." Harrison was coming on at the end of the season.' "Best OLB the Steelers have." Steelers defense always comes on stronger as the year goes on. Troy came back for the last 5 games...Maybe it was him. (That was sarcastic.) We will stay with that theory. That theory is what shows the truth. Woodley had a horrible year. He will have to rebound. So Harrison was better than Woodley..I agree. That's it and is that really an accomplishment given the way Woodley played? Is there anyone else you could truley say he was better than when the next OLB started 3 games and got 27 TT & 5 sacks with 30% of his snaps compared to 13 games started 70 TT & 6 sacks? No...You can't.

So to stay with the coming on strong at the end of the year and a sack in 5 of his last 7 games theory. In week 13, end of season where Harrison is Coming on, the Steelers pull out a win over the Ravens without BB to get themselves into position to make a run. Harrison has a good game pitching in 7 tackles, 1 sack with a FF on the sack. The Steelers sit 7-5 and still alive. They put themselves in must-win-control-your-own-destiny-playoff-mode. So over the next 3 games, 2 home & 1 on the road against SD, DAL, & CIN....Harrison goes 10 TT 1 Sack 1 FF in 3 straight losses. Anyone else hear crickets? He has a sack but if I am correct he got credit for 1 sack for 0 yards in the Bengals game. I believe it was on the FG miss drive at the end of the game where Troy blitzed fee and Dalton ran out of shotgun and got tackled at the LOS to stay in FG range. Regardless...10-1-1 in three must win games. Is that "a beast" or coming on strong? You witnessed a break down of a soon to be 35 year old LB. It is a young mans game. If you don't agree with that...The other option would be lack of effort. It's James Harrison, I don't think that was the case.

7-8 as a result going into a meaningless game against a non playoff team who is 5-11. You can't use Harrison's stats in this game as any indication of where Harrison is at in his career. Where was he the last three games when the games counted? The body just wouldn't go. Harrison was in career survival mode against a team who has been the epidemy of underachievers. Everyone on that field was going to their complexes the next day and getting ready for the exit meetings & the offseason. 5 sacks in his last 7 games doesn't sound so good anymore.

This Harrison issue is about production, age, cap hit, and what the risk is on losing young players. It isn't about how much we luv the guy or what he did for the Steelers. Harrison isn't going to get this team to the SB. The ceiling for 2013 is in the hands of the coaches, BB, the young guys next in line, and the draft class. Moving on from some of the older vets may be the difference of 2-3 games on the bad side but it very well could be an parallel or upgrade...We don't know. I think more importantly is we do something that has to be done anyway in the near future if it allows the Steelers to hold on to players that will be a big part of the future.

Djfan
02-15-2013, 12:29 PM
Keep him. Restructure or whatever, but he is a game changer.

Plus, he brings in more revenues to the NFL office. :cool:

Slapstick
02-15-2013, 01:04 PM
I've seen these teams give much worse players more money... I could see it happening. All it takes is one team.

Who? Which players?

Captain Lemming
02-15-2013, 01:41 PM
I'm one & I will take this head on.

I do watch the games. At least twice. Once as a fan like everyone else and then other times to evaluate. I will tell you this, after the season ended I went back and watched every game from Blatimore 2 to the end. All intensions were to look at our front seven because 4 of them are coming to the end.

Harrison just got stiff. His body doesn't have the ability to flex to be an edge rusher. Back & knee injuries combined with a stout maxed out frame at 35 has caught up to him. Your body has to be able to get into a proper angle to use your leverage to gain the upfield shoulder of the LT and rip. If you lose your ankle deflection, strength in knees to power through force at an angle, and the back strength to maintain leverage when engaged...It goes downhill fast. Harrison is a blunt downhill pass rusher right now. If a LT gets his punch in on Harrison's shoulders and moves his feet upfield, Harrison folds and is re-routed. He loses the leverage battle before he could rip under. He has become more of a motor rush and hoping he can out quick the LT by showing him enough inside counters & bull rushes. I luv Harrison and what he did for the Steelers. The arrow is pointing in the wrong direction on him.

I keep hearing the "He had a sack in 5 of the last seven games, with two strip fumbles created." "Defense terrible in the begining and better when he came back." Harrison was coming on at the end of the season.' "Best OLB the Steelers have." Steelers defense always comes on stronger as the year goes on. Troy came back for the last 5 games...Maybe it was him. (That was sarcastic.) We will stay with that theory. That theory is what shows the truth. Woodley had a horrible year. He will have to rebound. So Harrison was better than Woodley..I agree. That's it and is that really an accomplishment given the way Woodley played? Is there anyone else you could truley say he was better than when the next OLB started 3 games and got 27 TT & 5 sacks with 30% of his snaps compared to 13 games started 70 TT & 6 sacks? No...You can't.

So to stay with the coming on strong at the end of the year and a sack in 5 of his last 7 games theory. In week 13, end of season where Harrison is Coming on, the Steelers pull out a win over the Ravens without BB to get themselves into position to make a run. Harrison has a good game pitching in 7 tackles, 1 sack with a FF on the sack. The Steelers sit 7-5 and still alive. They put themselves in must-win-control-your-own-destiny-playoff-mode. So over the next 3 games, 2 home & 1 on the road against SD, DAL, & CIN....Harrison goes 10 TT 1 Sack 1 FF in 3 straight losses. Anyone else hear crickets? He has a sack but if I am correct he got credit for 1 sack for 0 yards in the Bengals game. I believe it was on the FG miss drive at the end of the game where Troy blitzed fee and Dalton ran out of shotgun and got tackled at the LOS to stay in FG range. Regardless...10-1-1 in three must win games. Is that "a beast" or coming on strong? You witnessed a break down of a soon to be 35 year old LB. It is a young mans game. If you don't agree with that...The other option would be lack of effort. It's James Harrison, I don't think that was the case.

7-8 as a result going into a meaningless game against a non playoff team who is 5-11. You can't use Harrison's stats in this game as any indication of where Harrison is at in his career. Where was he the last three games when the games counted? The body just wouldn't go. Harrison was in career survival mode against a team who has been the epidemy of underachievers. Everyone on that field was going to their complexes the next day and getting ready for the exit meetings & the offseason. 5 sacks in his last 7 games doesn't sound so good anymore.

This Harrison issue is about production, age, cap hit, and what the risk is on losing young players. It isn't about how much we luv the guy or what he did for the Steelers. Harrison isn't going to get this team to the SB. The ceiling for 2013 is in the hands of the coaches, BB, the young guys next in line, and the draft class. Moving on from some of the older vets may be the difference of 2-3 games on the bad side but it very well could be an parallel or upgrade...We don't know. I think more importantly is we do something that has to be done anyway in the near future if it allows the Steelers to hold on to players that will be a big part of the future.

You watch the games right? Twice? You do better than I do, much respect.

How in the heck is he "washed up" when NO 3/4 OLBer IN THE LEAGUE gets to the ball more than he does?

Sacks are ONE FACET, one where he did come on late.

There is ONE ROLE that all defensive players have in common. End the offensive play.
No Olber is more productive at that then Harrison PERIOD.
Not just two years ago, not back when he was DMVP, he ends the play more than all his peers TODAY.

Did Greg Llloyd put up HUGE sack numbers? No! Was Jason Gildon better than Lloyd? If you go by sacks alone Gildon is an alltime great.

Llloyd made stops, just like Harrison continues to do.

We get the return of the most productive tackler IN THE LEAGUE at his position and our defense improves by leaps and bounds. Just a coincidence? I dont think so.
Remember when people screams at how teams were running AT Ziggy with success? Ziggy is on the other side with Woodley. Smart teams dont run at Harrison, yet he STILL makes plays.

You said Woodley had a down year. Harrison had more tackles than Woodley has EVER HAD, at his finest. Harrison did that with no September.
Beloved Joey Porter bested 70 tt ONCE in his storied career.

Every tackle is a play on the ball. Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period.

So many players are "all sack no substance". Keep him off your QB and his game is worthless.

Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks.

BigRob
02-15-2013, 01:46 PM
Harrison is still one of the best run-defending OLBs in the league. 70 tackles isn't shabby, even if you don't consider the effects of the injury the first half of the season. As far as pressure in the passing game, don't you think it became easier for teams to take away his effectiveness because there wasn't anyone else they had to worry much about? I do believe his coverage skills have eroded somewhat, but his teammate on the other side is not exactly a fleet-footed wonder--nor is Worilds, for that matter. Perhaps it will be different next season, but I don't think you would find anyone with an "objective opinion" who would think that Worilds was good enough to beat out Harrison last season. If you went merely by last season's level of play, it is Woodley, not Harrison, who ought to be concerned about getting beat out by Worilds.

Did you see the part where I said he was still good in the run game? You don't pay 3-4 OLB'ers that much money to play well in the run game.

Woodley is another one that needs to be on notice. However, he is much younger and will therefore get a chance to show it was just a poor two year period. Even Terrell Suggs had some down years.

As for Worilds and his fleet footedness. I disagree with you. Worilds had a fantastic sub 1.6 10 yard split in the forty. He is explosive. His run defense is where he lacks and I think he can get better with reps.

He will have a healthy offseason. Worilds will come to training camp ripped and strong.

Oviedo
02-15-2013, 01:55 PM
I'm one & I will take this head on.

I do watch the games. At least twice. Once as a fan like everyone else and then other times to evaluate. I will tell you this, after the season ended I went back and watched every game from Blatimore 2 to the end. All intensions were to look at our front seven because 4 of them are coming to the end.

Harrison just got stiff. His body doesn't have the ability to flex to be an edge rusher. Back & knee injuries combined with a stout maxed out frame at 35 has caught up to him. Your body has to be able to get into a proper angle to use your leverage to gain the upfield shoulder of the LT and rip. If you lose your ankle deflection, strength in knees to power through force at an angle, and the back strength to maintain leverage when engaged...It goes downhill fast. Harrison is a blunt downhill pass rusher right now. If a LT gets his punch in on Harrison's shoulders and moves his feet upfield, Harrison folds and is re-routed. He loses the leverage battle before he could rip under. He has become more of a motor rush and hoping he can out quick the LT by showing him enough inside counters & bull rushes. I luv Harrison and what he did for the Steelers. The arrow is pointing in the wrong direction on him.

I keep hearing the "He had a sack in 5 of the last seven games, with two strip fumbles created." "Defense terrible in the begining and better when he came back." Harrison was coming on at the end of the season.' "Best OLB the Steelers have." Steelers defense always comes on stronger as the year goes on. Troy came back for the last 5 games...Maybe it was him. (That was sarcastic.) We will stay with that theory. That theory is what shows the truth. Woodley had a horrible year. He will have to rebound. So Harrison was better than Woodley..I agree. That's it and is that really an accomplishment given the way Woodley played? Is there anyone else you could truley say he was better than when the next OLB started 3 games and got 27 TT & 5 sacks with 30% of his snaps compared to 13 games started 70 TT & 6 sacks? No...You can't.

So to stay with the coming on strong at the end of the year and a sack in 5 of his last 7 games theory. In week 13, end of season where Harrison is Coming on, the Steelers pull out a win over the Ravens without BB to get themselves into position to make a run. Harrison has a good game pitching in 7 tackles, 1 sack with a FF on the sack. The Steelers sit 7-5 and still alive. They put themselves in must-win-control-your-own-destiny-playoff-mode. So over the next 3 games, 2 home & 1 on the road against SD, DAL, & CIN....Harrison goes 10 TT 1 Sack 1 FF in 3 straight losses. Anyone else hear crickets? He has a sack but if I am correct he got credit for 1 sack for 0 yards in the Bengals game. I believe it was on the FG miss drive at the end of the game where Troy blitzed fee and Dalton ran out of shotgun and got tackled at the LOS to stay in FG range. Regardless...10-1-1 in three must win games. Is that "a beast" or coming on strong? You witnessed a break down of a soon to be 35 year old LB. It is a young mans game. If you don't agree with that...The other option would be lack of effort. It's James Harrison, I don't think that was the case.

7-8 as a result going into a meaningless game against a non playoff team who is 5-11. You can't use Harrison's stats in this game as any indication of where Harrison is at in his career. Where was he the last three games when the games counted? The body just wouldn't go. Harrison was in career survival mode against a team who has been the epidemy of underachievers. Everyone on that field was going to their complexes the next day and getting ready for the exit meetings & the offseason. 5 sacks in his last 7 games doesn't sound so good anymore.

This Harrison issue is about production, age, cap hit, and what the risk is on losing young players. It isn't about how much we luv the guy or what he did for the Steelers. Harrison isn't going to get this team to the SB. The ceiling for 2013 is in the hands of the coaches, BB, the young guys next in line, and the draft class. Moving on from some of the older vets may be the difference of 2-3 games on the bad side but it very well could be an parallel or upgrade...We don't know. I think more importantly is we do something that has to be done anyway in the near future if it allows the Steelers to hold on to players that will be a big part of the future.


One of the best write ups in a very long time. I totally agree, the arrow is pointing the worng direction and hoping to cattch lightening in the bottle "just one more season" is what got the team into the mess we are in. That's exactly what we tried to do with Aaron Smith (about three times), Casey Hampton, etc. It is time to move on and complete the generational change we started last season.

Oviedo
02-15-2013, 01:57 PM
You watch the games right? Twice? You do better than I do, much respect.

How in the heck is he "washed up" when NO 3/4 OLBer IN THE LEAGUE gets to the ball more than he does?

Sacks are ONE FACET, one where he did come on late.

There is ONE ROLE that all defensive players have in common. End the offensive play.
No Olber is more productive at that then Harrison PERIOD.
Not just two years ago, not back when he was DMVP, he ends the play more than all his peers TODAY.

Did Greg Llloyd put up HUGE sack numbers? No! Was Jason Gildon better than Lloyd? If you go by sacks alone Gildon is an alltime great.

Llloyd made stops, just like Harrison continues to do.

We get the return of the most productive tackler IN THE LEAGUE at his position and our defense improves by leaps and bounds. Just a coincidence? I dont think so.
Remember when people screams at how teams were running AT Ziggy with success? Ziggy is on the other side with Woodley. Smart teams dont run at Harrison, yet he STILL makes plays.

You said Woodley had a down year. Harrison had more tackles than Woodley has EVER HAD, at his finest. Harrison did that with no September.
Beloved Joey Porter bested 70 tt ONCE in his storied career.

Every tackle is a play on the ball. Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period.

So many players are "all sack no substance". Keep him off your QB and his game is worthless.

Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks.

Not mentioned in this discussion was that Harrison looked terrible in pass coverage when he came back. Lots of chasing the guy who eventually caught the ball.

Its time we move on just like we did from Joey Porter to James Harrison.

Captain Lemming
02-15-2013, 03:09 PM
Did you see the part where I said he was still good in the run game? You don't pay 3-4 OLB'ers that much money to play well in the run game.

GLloyd or Gildon? Who had more sacks but who got paid?
Look at Porters typical sack numbers as a Steeler.
Aint much different than Harrisons last year given a full season.

BTW, the DL looking sack specialist (Greene, Gildon, Woodley) tends to play on Woodleys side. The better run stopper plays Harrisons role.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
02-15-2013, 03:26 PM
You watch the games right? Twice? You do better than I do, much respect.

How in the heck is he "washed up" when NO 3/4 OLBer IN THE LEAGUE gets to the ball more than he does?

Sacks are ONE FACET, one where he did come on late.

There is ONE ROLE that all defensive players have in common. End the offensive play.
No Olber is more productive at that then Harrison PERIOD.
Not just two years ago, not back when he was DMVP, he ends the play more than all his peers TODAY.

Did Greg Llloyd put up HUGE sack numbers? No! Was Jason Gildon better than Lloyd? If you go by sacks alone Gildon is an alltime great.

Llloyd made stops, just like Harrison continues to do.

We get the return of the most productive tackler IN THE LEAGUE at his position and our defense improves by leaps and bounds. Just a coincidence? I dont think so.
Remember when people screams at how teams were running AT Ziggy with success? Ziggy is on the other side with Woodley. Smart teams dont run at Harrison, yet he STILL makes plays.

You said Woodley had a down year. Harrison had more tackles than Woodley has EVER HAD, at his finest. Harrison did that with no September.
Beloved Joey Porter bested 70 tt ONCE in his storied career.

Every tackle is a play on the ball. Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period.

So many players are "all sack no substance". Keep him off your QB and his game is worthless.

Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks.

You are just hung up on those tackle stats. I commend him on his tackle stats...But he isn't a force because of that. 3-4 OLB...Get to the QB. Can't do it as well as he should. That is where he should excel first at his position. He is playing like a SAM backer..Not a 3-4 OLB.

Down the stretch Harrison was getting tuned out of the holes & hooked by TEs in the run game. He was getting stoned in the hole by OL too much for my liking. Harrison makes many tackles off his backside discipline because teams run strong side. No reason to believe Harrison is a dominant OLB in a 3-4 because he got 70 tackles & 6 sacks.

Your tackle stat luv has holes. Clark had over 100 tackles again...Is that a good thing? Larry Foote had 113 - 4 sacks - 2 FF....$hit he must be better than Harrison right? Believe your eyes...Not the stats. My eyes showed my a player in rapid decline. Unable to make those splash plays that you expect from the engine of a 3-4...The OLBs. Splash plays are sacks, FF, and INTs....Not tackles. I agree about one thing. "Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks." Correct....At one time it did. That is why he WAS so special.

"Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period." These guys all want to talk to you...Aldon Smith, Von Miller, Clay Mathews, Demarcus Ware

You know what my eyes see that tell me the end has come....Teams DON'T gameplan for Harrison anymore. If you didn't see that watching the games....Your TV was off.

BigRob
02-15-2013, 03:47 PM
GLloyd or Gildon? Who had more sacks but who got paid?
Look at Porters typical sack numbers as a Steeler.
Aint much different than Harrisons last year given a full season.

BTW, the DL looking sack specialist (Greene, Gildon, Woodley) tends to play on Woodleys side. The better run stopper plays Harrisons role.

Different time and a different game. Applying pressure and sacks are more important than stopping the run in the new NFL.

If Harrison can't cover and can't rush the passer with the same efficiency. He isn't worth the money and he won't take a pay cut. Too much pride in the man. Don't really blame him. He's a scrapper.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
02-15-2013, 03:54 PM
GLloyd or Gildon? Who had more sacks but who got paid?
Look at Porters typical sack numbers as a Steeler.
Aint much different than Harrisons last year given a full season.

BTW, the DL looking sack specialist (Greene, Gildon, Woodley) tends to play on Woodleys side. The better run stopper plays Harrisons role.

That is a very good comparison with Porter Cap. Porter put up 55 TT 7 Sacks & 2 INT...Then they cut him at 30.

The better run stoppers play strongside or LOLB. The OLB who has more range play ROLB. Because of a LOLB discipline against the run, they tend to get LESS tackles. His job is to take everything on with his right shoulder and protect the edge while squeezing the hole down. If it bounces...String it to the sideline if you can't force it back inside. The ROLB is to come down the LOS and often is unblocked. Protect the backside cutback and make the tackle if he crosses your face. Early on in his career (which made him special) You had to put a hat on Harrison because he came down hard and made the tackle from the backside. Even when blocked, he could beat the TE or LT and still make a play away.

Oviedo
02-15-2013, 04:00 PM
You are just hung up on those tackle stats. I commend him on his tackle stats...But he isn't a force because of that. 3-4 OLB...Get to the QB. Can't do it as well as he should. That is where he should excel first at his position. He is playing like a SAM backer..Not a 3-4 OLB.

Down the stretch Harrison was getting tuned out of the holes & hooked by TEs in the run game. He was getting stoned in the hole by OL too much for my liking. Harrison makes many tackles off his backside discipline because teams run strong side. No reason to believe Harrison is a dominant OLB in a 3-4 because he got 70 tackles & 6 sacks.

Your tackle stat luv has holes. Clark had over 100 tackles again...Is that a good thing? Larry Foote had 113 - 4 sacks - 2 FF....$hit he must be better than Harrison right? Believe your eyes...Not the stats. My eyes showed my a player in rapid decline. Unable to make those splash plays that you expect from the engine of a 3-4...The OLBs. Splash plays are sacks, FF, and INTs....Not tackles. I agree about one thing. "Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks." Correct....At one time it did. That is why he WAS so special.

"Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period." These guys all want to talk to you...Aldon Smith, Von Miller, Clay Mathews, Demarcus Ware

You know what my eyes see that tell me the end has come....Teams DON'T gameplan for Harrison anymore. If you didn't see that watching the games....Your TV was off.


Yes. Job #1 for a 3-4 OLB is to sack the QB. Every other stat is meaningless. The defense is designed for those OLBs to pressure the QB and if they can't it starts to unravel as we have seen against good teams the past few years.

Oviedo
02-15-2013, 04:02 PM
You are just hung up on those tackle stats. I commend him on his tackle stats...But he isn't a force because of that. 3-4 OLB...Get to the QB. Can't do it as well as he should. That is where he should excel first at his position. He is playing like a SAM backer..Not a 3-4 OLB.

Down the stretch Harrison was getting tuned out of the holes & hooked by TEs in the run game. He was getting stoned in the hole by OL too much for my liking. Harrison makes many tackles off his backside discipline because teams run strong side. No reason to believe Harrison is a dominant OLB in a 3-4 because he got 70 tackles & 6 sacks.

Your tackle stat luv has holes. Clark had over 100 tackles again...Is that a good thing? Larry Foote had 113 - 4 sacks - 2 FF....$hit he must be better than Harrison right? Believe your eyes...Not the stats. My eyes showed my a player in rapid decline. Unable to make those splash plays that you expect from the engine of a 3-4...The OLBs. Splash plays are sacks, FF, and INTs....Not tackles. I agree about one thing. "Harrison's value goes way beyond just the sacks." Correct....At one time it did. That is why he WAS so special.

"Nobody at his position makes more plays than Harrison, period." These guys all want to talk to you...Aldon Smith, Von Miller, Clay Mathews, Demarcus Ware

You know what my eyes see that tell me the end has come....Teams DON'T gameplan for Harrison anymore. If you didn't see that watching the games....Your TV was off.

Harrison mostly got handled by the LT. Unlike in the past the LT rarely needed help. That is how we know Harrison is done.

feltdizz
02-15-2013, 04:08 PM
Who? Which players?

Panthers...Jon Beason's cap hit is 9.5 mill next year.

When I said "these teams" I meant bad teams who are notorious for overpaying players. Plenty of teams have LB's making 5 to 6 mill who aren't of JH's caliber present day.

Woodley is #2 with a cap hit of 10.25 mill.... that guy is stealing.

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/average/linebacker/

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
02-15-2013, 04:15 PM
Panthers...Jon Beason's cap hit is 9.5 mill next year.

When I said "these teams" I meant bad teams who are notorious for overpaying players. Plenty of teams have LB's making 5 to 6 mill who aren't of JH's caliber present day.

Woodley is #2 with a cap hit of 10.25 mill.... that guy is stealing.

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/average/linebacker/

He was this year...That is for sure. Woodleys 2013 cap hit is 13.2 which may get restructured. He better get an 11+ sack year and maybe I will forgive him.

BigRob
02-15-2013, 04:16 PM
Panthers...Jon Beason's cap hit is 9.5 mill next year.

When I said "these teams" I meant bad teams who are notorious for overpaying players. Plenty of teams have LB's making 5 to 6 mill who aren't of JH's caliber present day.

Woodley is #2 with a cap hit of 10.25 mill.... that guy is stealing.

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/average/linebacker/

Is it his fault the Steelers restructured him twice and pushed his cap hit into the future?

That is his cap hit is so high. Also why he can't be cut. Nor should we cut him. This is a make or break season for Woodley as to whether he stays with the Steelers beyond this year.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
02-15-2013, 04:18 PM
Is it his fault the Steelers restructured him twice and pushed his cap hit into the future. That is why it is so high now. Also why he can't be cut. Nor should we cut him. This is a make or break season for Woodley as to whether he stays with the Steelers beyond this year.

If you cut him this year it would be a -1.1 mil cap savings! 14.3 mil dead money...OUCH!

Slapstick
02-15-2013, 04:21 PM
Panthers...Jon Beason's cap hit is 9.5 mill next year.

When I said "these teams" I meant bad teams who are notorious for overpaying players. Plenty of teams have LB's making 5 to 6 mill who aren't of JH's caliber present day.

Woodley is #2 with a cap hit of 10.25 mill.... that guy is stealing.

http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/average/linebacker/

Beason was only 26 years old when he signed his extension two years ago...

Harrison will be 35...it's a different situation...

Plenty of teams have LBs maikg 5-6 million, but those LBs aren't 35 and didn't just ink their new deals...

BradshawsHairdresser
02-15-2013, 04:43 PM
Did you see the part where I said he was still good in the run game? You don't pay 3-4 OLB'ers that much money to play well in the run game.

Woodley is another one that needs to be on notice. However, he is much younger and will therefore get a chance to show it was just a poor two year period. Even Terrell Suggs had some down years.

As for Worilds and his fleet footedness. I disagree with you. Worilds had a fantastic sub 1.6 10 yard split in the forty. He is explosive. His run defense is where he lacks and I think he can get better with reps.

He will have a healthy offseason. Worilds will come to training camp ripped and strong.

Worilds ran that fast in the combines prior to becoming a pro, but I don't think he's that fast any more...he tried to bulk up like Woodley, and it took some of his speed away.

You sound as though the only weak spot in Worilds' game is run defense, and yet the "experts" on this board say that's not all that important; rushing the passer and covering receivers are the important facets. Well if Worilds was so great at those aspects this last season, why the heck couldn't he beat out Harrison or Woodley?

Eddie Spaghetti
02-15-2013, 05:14 PM
stopping the run isn't important until you can't do it anymore.

we have been spoiled by doing it so well for so long that its almost an afterthought for some people.

BradshawsHairdresser
02-15-2013, 05:28 PM
stopping the run isn't important until you can't do it anymore.

we have been spoiled by doing it so well for so long that its almost an afterthought for some people.

Spot on, Pasta Man.

And Harrison has been a big part of that. I think he's probably gone in a few weeks, but I don't see how losing him can help our defense this coming season.

Maybe Woodley and Worilds will get serious about conditioning, and improve their play. I'm afraid to count on that, however.

I'm hoping we can find an OLB gem in the draft.

papillon
02-15-2013, 06:24 PM
Worilds ran that fast in the combines prior to becoming a pro, but I don't think he's that fast any more...he tried to bulk up like Woodley, and it took some of his speed away.

You sound as though the only weak spot in Worilds' game is run defense, and yet the "experts" on this board say that's not all that important; rushing the passer and covering receivers are the important facets. Well if Worilds was so great at those aspects this last season, why the heck couldn't he beat out Harrison or Woodley?

Because he isn't as good as either one of them, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. The purge that's coming is going to leave the Steelers in a bad way next year and, unless, they hit the draft lottery this year that downturn could last for a "few" years, IMO.

The players behind the vets (and, I know we can't keep them) just simply aren't as good at playing football as the vets.

Pappy

papillon
02-15-2013, 06:26 PM
stopping the run isn't important until you can't do it anymore.

we have been spoiled by doing it so well for so long that its almost an afterthought for some people.

You only have to remember back to the beginning of the year when teams were gouging the defense in the run game and the board was in meltdown mode over Ziggy and Heyward. Guess who else wasn't playing at that time? James freaking Harrison wasn't on the field and neither was Polamalu after game 2 or 3. Coincidence? I think not.

James is gone, I get it, but believing the defense will be better because of it is silly, IMO.

Pappy

AzStillers1989
02-15-2013, 06:35 PM
Silverback = Beast. Hate thinking about him leaving this team.

BigRob
02-15-2013, 06:41 PM
Worilds ran that fast in the combines prior to becoming a pro, but I don't think he's that fast any more...he tried to bulk up like Woodley, and it took some of his speed away.

You sound as though the only weak spot in Worilds' game is run defense, and yet the "experts" on this board say that's not all that important; rushing the passer and covering receivers are the important facets. Well if Worilds was so great at those aspects this last season, why the heck couldn't he beat out Harrison or Woodley?

That is a simple question to answer. He wasn't healthy until after the season started. His biggest non football weakness is his health. This dates back to college. This is where you could debate about Worilds the most and have a shot at winning.

He hasn't lost his explosiveness and he was lifting weights with Harrison once he was healthy. His weight came down after he was able to get into shape.

Health is his biggest question mark.

SteelCrazy
02-15-2013, 06:45 PM
We were good before Harrison came here and we will be good when he leaves. I cant believe the Steelers paid Woodley like they did. Although his play up to that point warranted the raise, OLB in the Steelers system will always be easy to replace and knowing that, we should have cut Wood if he didnt take way less than we gave him.

Back to JH, I love the guy, but we need need to clear up money big time. I say cut them both, unless cutting Wood doesnt help a lot with the cap situation.

BradshawsHairdresser
02-15-2013, 07:12 PM
That is a simple question to answer. He wasn't healthy until after the season started. His biggest non football weakness is his health. This dates back to college. This is where you could debate about Worilds the most and have a shot at winning.

He hasn't lost his explosiveness and he was lifting weights with Harrison once he was healthy. His weight came down after he was able to get into shape.

Health is his biggest question mark.

Dunno...Worilds looked heavy and slow to me late into the season...nowhere near as "explosive" as when he first came into the league...

And exactly why are we supposed to give Worilds a pass because of health issues? Woodley and Harrison might argue that they never got to full health all season long. You can spare me the "Worilds is 10 years younger than Harrison" line...What good is 10 years younger if you're not healthy enough to play at a high level?

BradshawsHairdresser
02-15-2013, 07:14 PM
We were good before Harrison came here and we will be good when he leaves. I cant believe the Steelers paid Woodley like they did. Although his play up to that point warranted the raise, OLB in the Steelers system will always be easy to replace and knowing that, we should have cut Wood if he didnt take way less than we gave him.

Back to JH, I love the guy, but we need need to clear up money big time. I say cut them both, unless cutting Wood doesnt help a lot with the cap situation.

Cutting Woodley won't happen this offseason...costs too much against the cap.

BigRob
02-15-2013, 08:00 PM
Dunno...Worilds looked heavy and slow to me late into the season...nowhere near as "explosive" as when he first came into the league...

And exactly why are we supposed to give Worilds a pass because of health issues? Woodley and Harrison might argue that they never got to full health all season long. You can spare me the "Worilds is 10 years younger than Harrison" line...What good is 10 years younger if you're not healthy enough to play at a high level?

Never said to give Worilds a pass because of his health. In fact I said this is where we should attack Worilds. He is a big "if" on this front.

supersteeler
02-15-2013, 08:28 PM
Obviosly if James Harrison is cut it won't be on account of his ability, it's about the money period. Should he accept around 3 mill he might stick around another year if they even offer anything.

Worlids is an unproven player, and he's injured quite a bit even with limited playing time, I don't know if he's the answer to replace JH if it comes to that.

What I remember about James in his early years here was the time he had to sub for Joey Porter as porter was injured and you could tell then Harrison was going to be good after seeing him perform. He did so well that he eventually replaced Joey Porter and we didn't miss a beat.

I have my concerns whether Worlids can do the same, this is why OLB is a consern for the fans, they really can't trust Worlids will fill the void.
Look for that position to be addressed in the draft as you can see most mocks have us picking one at some point in the draft.

All we can do as fans is watch what transpires in the next few weeks, you can bet if we lose Harrison you will see a drop off and we have no one on that roster to replace him and play as well. The draft is our only option in hope of getting a productive OLB that can play at a high level and compete for a starters role.

Harrison was just as good as Porter, Worlids isn't, thats why we have a problem.

BigRob
02-15-2013, 08:38 PM
What I remember about James in his early years here was the time he had to sub for Joey Porter as porter was injured and you could tell then Harrison was going to be good after seeing him perform. He did so well that he eventually replaced Joey Porter and we didn't miss a beat.


I laugh when I hear this. Harrison played less snaps before replacing Porter than Worilds played this year.

Go ahead and research it. James started one game for Porter in 2004 against Cleveland. He had a good/decent game.

His only other highlights were an interception in a game against San Diego in 2005. People like his mean demeanor and the way he body slammed a Cleveland fan.

He did very little on the field as a defensive player prior to 2007 and was never able to unseat Porter.

Oh yeah, he couldn't unseat Haggans either. It took a long time for him to develop in to a starter. Worilds can be one too.

Chadman
02-15-2013, 08:52 PM
Don't think Worilds is as far away from being an impact starter as people seem to think. He had one of the highest sack counts for the Steelers last year, and saw the field more than at any point in his career.

Are injuries a concern? Yes- but the positive is that it's not recurring injuries- they are all different. Broken thumb, rolled ankle etc... that could just be bad luck. If it was like aaron Smith, who kept getting issues with his arms/triceps/biceps- that's more concerning because that has become, for lack of a better term, a structural weakness on the body.

It's the same with Colon. Alot of people want him gone because of his injuries- but no two injuries have been the same. He's more the product of bad luck than actually being injury prone.

BradshawsHairdresser
02-15-2013, 09:23 PM
Never said to give Worilds a pass because of his health.
And yet you said that the reason Worilds didn't beat out Harrison or Woodley last season was because "he wasn't healthy until after the season started.":?

Steelerphile
02-16-2013, 08:14 AM
I laugh when I hear this. Harrison played less snaps before replacing Porter than Worilds played this year.

Go ahead and research it. James started one game for Porter in 2004 against Cleveland. He had a good/decent game.

His only other highlights were an interception in a game against San Diego in 2005. People like his mean demeanor and the way he body slammed a Cleveland fan.

He did very little on the field as a defensive player prior to 2007 and was never able to unseat Porter.

Oh yeah, he couldn't unseat Haggans either. It took a long time for him to develop in to a starter. Worilds can be one too.

In hindsight, there seem to be a lot of people wbo claim they knew how great Harrison would be before he became a full-time starter. I don't think that is true at all. I think there was a concern about that position. People calling for a No. 1 to be spent on that position. People who thought Harrison would be solid or OK but not much more. It could be a similar situation with Worilds. He has flashed pass rush talent. Looked very good in spots, but has not, as of yet, put it all together in a consistent way. But he has the type of ability that I think he could.

What I think separates Harrison, Porter or any of the others who become special is their training regimen. Harrison lifts and trains more than almost everybody. At his best he was a solid mass of muscle. Worilds did look somewhat heavy last season. If he gets a shot to play full-time, he just has to take his cue from how Harrison worked to prepare to play. If he does, he has the basic physical ability to be a very good player.

supersteeler
02-16-2013, 09:13 AM
1. No one knew if JH would be a dominate player before he got his starts.


2. In his limited play before he became a starter he played well.



3. He replaced Joey Porter because the Steerler front office didn't want to pay Porter, and had confidence that Harrison would be able to fill the responsibility of playing that position.


4. Forget the money for a moment and ask yourself who you would rather have playing OLB if the money wasn't a factor?


I'm not saying Worlids can't do the job, just I don't believe he will be as good. Sack wise I do think he'll do well, but there is more to playing LB than sacks, like stopping the run and pass coverage.

If the Steelers can't reach an agreement with JH for a pay cut, then they don't have any other option than to release him. I understand that, and if happens I'll wish Worlids all the best in his endeavors. I want Worlids to succeed and hope he can solidify that position for years, just hope JH doesn't become a Brown and play against his former team.

BigRob
02-16-2013, 05:06 PM
1. No one knew if JH would be a dominate player before he got his starts.


2. In his limited play before he became a starter he played well.



4. Forget the money for a moment and ask yourself who you would rather have playing OLB if the money wasn't a factor?



You can't forget the money. The money is the reason you have to cut players period.

Harrison had less starting snaps than Worilds did before becoming the starting OLB in 2007. James had very limited playing time period in his years here before that time.

He was less of a sure thing in 2007 than anyone wants to remember. The people who liked him had zero body of work to predict his success.

People forget the outrage that took place in 2007 when Joey Porter was let go at an age 4 years younger than Harrison. Porter was playing at a pretty high level at the time.

supersteeler
02-16-2013, 05:34 PM
You can't forget the money. The money is the reason you have to cut players period.

Harrison had less starting snaps than Worilds did before becoming the starting OLB in 2007. James had very limited playing time period in his years here before that time.

He was less of a sure thing in 2007 than anyone wants to remember. The people who liked him had zero body of work to predict his success.

People forget the outrage that took place in 2007 when Joey Porter was let go at an age 4 years younger than Harrison. Porter was playing at a pretty high level at the time.


Your correct it IS about the money, otherwise Worlids wouldn't see the field with a healthy Silverback.

BigRob
02-16-2013, 09:04 PM
Your correct it IS about the money, otherwise Worlids wouldn't see the field with a healthy Silverback.

We agree it is about health and money. Silverback can't stay healthy and he is too big of a cap hit relative to his age and health for this year.

Worilds doesn't take much cap space and has plenty of potential. Time to see if he can take the next step.

supersteeler
02-17-2013, 12:07 AM
We agree it is about health and money. Silverback can't stay healthy and he is too big of a cap hit relative to his age and health for this year.

Worilds doesn't take much cap space and has plenty of potential. Time to see if he can take the next step.

I think we have a compromise, our team is in a mess with the cap issues where even if the Steelers wanted to keep James its cost prohibited.
The only option left is give Worlids the keys maybe he'll open some doors and surprise everyone, I wish him well in his endeavors.
As for James, I'll never forget that INT he had against the Cards that changed the momentum of that game, it took him awhile to get to the end zone but he got there like the warrior he is.
Wish JH the best too, just like when Hines had to go, its tough for fans to see players like that leave who gave it their all.

Sugar
02-17-2013, 12:23 AM
The Steelers can't pay the man, but the Eagles can and probably will. I feel safe in sadly saying that the Steelers D will be worse than it was this year. Let's just hope the O can put up 35 a game.

pittpete
02-17-2013, 01:27 AM
We were 8-8 with this Steelers team.
Why is it so important to keep players from a team that was mediocre and showing its age.
Did anyone ever think that the players the Steelers get into the lineup, might just make an impact.
I mean they are professionals right?
When Gay left for Arizona was there any guarantee Lewis would step up and have the season he did?
Maybe Taumu(sp.) sees the light and realizes this is his last chance in the NFL and becomes an All Pro NT?
Is this the year Cam replaces Ziggy and does a great A. Smith impersonation?
Can Spence come back and inspire the defense with his tenacity and football IQ?
There are so many if's, and none of us know.
I think the Steelers realized that keeping expensive vets past their primes is a recipe for disaster and just impedes younger players growth.
See Aaron Smith, Hines Ward and James Farrior as the most recent examples.
History has proven we have one of the best if not best and most solid franchises in football if not all of sports.
They want to win as much as we do....
We just need a little luck, a solid draft and a lot less injuries in 2013

Oviedo
02-17-2013, 12:57 PM
We agree it is about health and money. Silverback can't stay healthy and he is too big of a cap hit relative to his age and health for this year.

Worilds doesn't take much cap space and has plenty of potential. Time to see if he can take the next step.

Totally agree. Don't repeat the Aaron Smith fiasco with James Harrison.

BradshawsHairdresser
02-17-2013, 05:11 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000139928/article/report-steelers-coaches-want-james-harrison-back (http://clk.atdmt.com/DEN/go/411690879/direct/01/)

Report: Steelers coaches want James Harrison back 7 (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000139928/comments/report-steelers-coaches-want-james-harrison-back)



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By Marc Sessler
Around the League Writer
Published: Feb. 17, 2013 at 03:09 p.m.
Updated: Feb. 17, 2013 at 03:30 p.m.






The Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.nfl.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT) are widely expected (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000139396/article/pittsburgh-steelers-harrison-yet-to-discuss-contract) to ask James Harrison (http://www.nfl.com/player/jamesharrison/2504844/profile) to take a pay cut, but if the front office can't work a deal with the veteran linebacker, it appears they'll have some explaining to do down on the field.
Offseason Forecast: Steelers (http://www.nfl.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT)
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2013/02/11/0ap1000000138108.jpgWith the offseason under way, Around The League (http://www.nfl.com/news/around-the-league) examines what's next for all 32 teams. Gregg Rosenthal tackles the Steelers (http://www.nfl.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT). More ... (http://www.nfl.com/share/page/site/nfl-com/www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000137993/article/offseason-forecast-pittsburgh-steelers?icampaign=ATL_newsdriver)



Ed Bouchette of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports (http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/steelers-sunday-spotlight-the-linebackers-a-legacy-in-jeopardy-675711/) the team's coaching staff wants Harrison -- contract talks aside -- back in the lineup for the Steelers (http://www.nfl.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT) in 2013.
He turns 35 in May, but Harrison still matched Lawrence Timmons (http://www.nfl.com/player/lawrencetimmons/2495762/profile) for a team-leading six sacks last season after missing the first three games with a knee injury. If Harrison is, indeed, on borrowed time, his coaches are still "counting on" him to team with LaMarr Woodley (http://www.nfl.com/player/lamarrwoodley/2507173/profile) at outside linebacker for at least one more campaign, per the newspaper.
The Steelers (http://www.nfl.com/teams/pittsburghsteelers/profile?team=PIT) weigh in at roughly $14 million over the salary cap. The team could unearth $5.1 million in relief by releasing Harrison, but that isn't going to happen without trying to work out a more affordable deal first. Harrison isn't the terror he once was, but he knows Dick LeBeau (http://www.nfl.com/player/dicklebeau/2519234/profile)'s scheme as well as anyone and -- if healthy -- can still cause problems for quarterbacks.
Follow Marc Sessler on Twitter @MarcSesslerNFL (https://twitter.com/MarcSesslerNFL).

papillon
02-17-2013, 06:40 PM
We're all talking about releasing at one point or another the following players: Harrison, Polamalu, Taylor, Kiesel, Hampton, Foote, possibly Miller and we're fairly certain that Wallace and Mendenhall are gone. My question is why is Ben off the table then? How much is he costing against the cap? What if the Steelers extend and then trade Ben for future draft picks in 2014 and a backup quarterback that is young and healthy? If we're gutting an 8-8 team then Ben should be an option to move and do what's best for the future. He's taken the Steelers to three Super bowls and won two, he's often injured, but still a very good quarterback and probably has value to Miami, Kansas City or Philly.

Maybe, Ben for Cassell and 2014 1st round pick from Kansas City? Or Ben for Dixon and 2014 1st round from Philly? If we're gutting the team and starting over and accepting 4, 5, 6 or 7 wins, they might as well really look to reload. Ben will be 31 next year with a lot of miles on his body, I have more confidence that Harrison will stay healthy while Ben will break down from the beatings he has taken in his 9 years.

Just sayin...gutting the defense which in most people's estimation has carried the team for 10 years save for few key games and drives and hoping that the offense which is losing its best WR and best RB will all of sudden be able to outscore opponents doesn't seem like a recipe for success. Get a prime pick (1st round) for Ben and a backup quarterback to hold the spot for a year or two and package two #1 picks next year and take the best quarterback available, whoever that will be and start building around a young quarterback.

Draft this year to rebuild your defense, next year the quarterback and offense and see what happens three years from now. The Steelers will probably be waiting at least that long with Ben to be in the hunt again once the Steelers do what we all believe will be done.

Pappy

BradshawsHairdresser
02-17-2013, 07:19 PM
I understand that Ben counts about $20 million against the cap...most teams with top-flight QBs are paying them a comparable (or even greater) share of their total cap pie.

I can only answer your post by saying that I think it's much harder to find a top-flight quarterback than to replace any of the other positions we're talking about. Yes, you can build a defense that "carries" a team, but nowdays, you need to have a great QB to win a championship. People will bring up Trent Dilfer, but that was 13 years ago, and is a rare exception. Look at the teams that have won Super Bowls ever since...no "Dilfers" in that bunch.

pittpete
02-17-2013, 09:43 PM
Trade Ben and his cap hit goes to 10 million this year.
Extend him and trade him and his cap hit goes up even more.
Please stop with the trading Ben dopey talk.
No one is gutting the team, they're just going to release aging veterans with large salaries and not resign a disgruntled self proclaimed superstar wideout.
Pap, people with spinal injuries don't get better with age.
Believe me I've had two discs operated on and it's always there reminding you what you can and can't do any more.
Couple that with Harrisons knees and it doesn't bode well for his future.
Either him or Troy has to go.
Pick your poison, you've watched all the games this year

papillon
02-17-2013, 11:22 PM
Trade Ben and his cap hit goes to 10 million this year.
Extend him and trade him and his cap hit goes up even more.
Please stop with the trading Ben dopey talk.
No one is gutting the team, they're just going to release aging veterans with large salaries and not resign a disgruntled self proclaimed superstar wideout.
Pap, people with spinal injuries don't get better with age.
Believe me I've had two discs operated on and it's always there reminding you what you can and can't do any more.
Couple that with Harrisons knees and it doesn't bode well for his future.
Either him or Troy has to go.
Pick your poison, you've watched all the games this year

When you trade a player his contract goes with him I thought? Any portion of the signing bonus that hasn't been amortized I believe is the responsibility of the original team. I think the Steelers only have one more payment on his signing bonus, but not sure.

I see more than a few aging vets getting released: Hampton, Harrison, possibly Taylor and/or Polamalu. Wallace and Mendenhall are as good as gone and I don't see the funds being available for Keenan Lewis if he hits the market, which I'm certain that he will now that Sherman has made it known that he's a top corner in the game. Ben isn't going to be enough to be in the playoff hunt this year or the following year IMO and by then Ben will turning 33 the following season (2015).

He has value right now to a team with a good defense (which isn't going to be the Steelers once Colbert and Khan get the pen out), but no quarterback. A prime pick and a quarterback to hold the job for a few years would be a good deal in my opinion.

Either way, the way I see it the Steelers are in trouble for two years and hopefully, some young guns start playing up to the potential that the Steelers saw when they were drafted; the Steelers will need a good draft this year or next year. With Ben or without Ben I don't see the Steelers being competitive and its two more years of hits on Ben, his career will be winding sooner than we think from wear and tear. He's a tough SOB, but you can't continue to get pummeled like he does and continue to be on the field as you age.

I'd hate to see Ben go, I defended him in the past and I defended him this year, he's made Steeler football exciting for 9 years, but if his value can set the team up for the next 9 years it might be time to consider him as a commodity to be used to that end.

Pappy

pittpete
02-18-2013, 01:57 AM
When a player is traded, the years he has left gets accelerated.
3 years left would be almost $10 million cap hit on BB.
We will be fine and I bet ya we sign Lewis.
I will not miss Mendy,Wallace,Hampton or Kiesel.
We were 8-8 with them.
Harrison will not be here unless he agrees to a pay cut.
You don't trade a 31 year old franchise QB.
Say it with me.
You don't trade a31 year old franchise QB

flippy
02-18-2013, 08:46 AM
No matter how you slice it, this team still needs James and Troy to make a SuperBowl run. Hopefully picking #17 will give us the chance to get another one of these guys to carry our D for the next 10 years.

Slapstick
02-18-2013, 10:46 AM
The past two seasons, neither Harrison nor Woodley have been healthy....

In 2011, up until the injury, Woodley was having a DPOY caliber season...if he can somehow get healthy and back to that form, THAT will be key to the success of the defense...

supersteeler
02-18-2013, 11:02 AM
I don't want to downplay conditioning but a healthy Woodley makes our team better.
Lets us all hope Woodley doesn't turn into Shawne Merriman " Lights out " who was a force is first 3 seasons then injuries sent his career downward.

We'll leave the light ON Lamar, get healthy, conditioned and ready to play like a wounded animal out for blood.

papillon
02-18-2013, 12:56 PM
When a player is traded, the years he has left gets accelerated.
3 years left would be almost $10 million cap hit on BB.
We will be fine and I bet ya we sign Lewis.
I will not miss Mendy,Wallace,Hampton or Kiesel.
We were 8-8 with them.
Harrison will not be here unless he agrees to a pay cut.
You don't trade a 31 year old franchise QB.
Say it with me.
You don't trade a 31 year old franchise QB

We were 8-8 with Mendy, Wallace, Hampton, Kiesel and Harrison as you say. We were also 8-8 with Ben. So, trading Ben hits us 10 million this year, instead of the 20 million if he stays and it frees up the money he would count in 2014 and 2015. Just so you know, I'm simply playing devil's advocate here about trading Ben.

On the other hand, if the price were right I think the Steelers have to consider it. Ben wasn't able to make a difference this past year in determining whether the Steelers made the playoffs or not, with less of a supporting cast for the next two years until the younger players get up to speed, it will in all likelihood be more of the same. The one thing that could help tremendously is for the offensive line to stay healthy.

Pappy

Oviedo
02-18-2013, 01:06 PM
We were 8-8 with Mendy, Wallace, Hampton, Kiesel and Harrison as you say. We were also 8-8 with Ben. So, trading Ben hits us 10 million this year, instead of the 20 million if he stays and it frees up the money he would count in 2014 and 2015. Just so you know, I'm simply playing devil's advocate here about trading Ben.

On the other hand, if the price were right I think the Steelers have to consider it. Ben wasn't able to make a difference this past year in determining whether the Steelers made the playoffs or not, with less of a supporting cast for the next two years until the younger players get up to speed, it will in all likelihood be more of the same. The one thing that could help tremendously is for the offensive line to stay healthy.

Pappy


We just need to expect that we won't be "top dog" in the AFC North for a couple of years but hopefully that makes us a hungrier dog.

papillon
02-18-2013, 01:19 PM
We just need to expect that we won't be "top dog" in the AFC North for a couple of years but hopefully that makes us a hungrier dog.

That's exactly right, with or without Ben it looks to be a couple down years, so, if a team is willing to part with their #1 pick and a backup quarterback that can hold the position for a couple years until the Steelers can potentially combine two #1 picks to move up and take the next quarterback for the Steelers is it worth it? My original point when I entered this thread was, if every other player on the roster is available to be cut, I'm not certain that Ben shouldn't be a consideration as well.

Now if Omar Khan waves the magic pen and figures out how to phase a couple more vets without completely gutting the team, then trading Ben would be a bad idea. But, if the cuts are as deep as many believe them to be, I think Ben should be on the table if the right opportunity arises.

Pappy

Oviedo
02-18-2013, 01:23 PM
That's exactly right, with or without Ben it looks to be a couple down years, so, if a team is willing to part with their #1 pick and a backup quarterback that can hold the position for a couple years until the Steelers can potentially combine two #1 picks to move up and take the next quarterback for the Steelers is it worth it? My original point when I entered this thread was, if every other player on the roster is available to be cut, I'm not certain that Ben shouldn't be a consideration as well.

Now if Omar Khan waves the magic pen and figures out how to phase a couple more vets without completely gutting the team, then trading Ben would be a bad idea. But, if the cuts are as deep as many believe them to be, I think Ben should be on the table if the right opportunity arises.

Pappy

I like the thinking outside the box suggestion because that makes the board fun but I just remember the 20+ years of bad QBs that kept us out of the Super Bowl after Bradshaw was gone. Don't want to repeat that in a NFL that is significantly more dependent on QBs like it is now. I'll take our chances with Ben "until the wheels fall off."

feltdizz
02-18-2013, 01:24 PM
Flacco said we would never win the AFCN again as long as he was the QB a year or 2 ago... I would hate to believe he may be right. Ben should retire a Steeler unless he makes it obvious he is disgruntled and wants out.

papillon
02-18-2013, 02:30 PM
I like the thinking outside the box suggestion because that makes the board fun but I just remember the 20+ years of bad QBs that kept us out of the Super Bowl after Bradshaw was gone. Don't want to repeat that in a NFL that is significantly more dependent on QBs like it is now. I'll take our chances with Ben "until the wheels fall off."

The 20 years of bad quarterbacking save for a few by Kordell is the reason that at least a #1 pick has to be involved in the deal, maybe a #1 and #2 or whatever they feel will be a win for the Steelers. If it doesn't happen then we still have Ben and that isn't a bad thing.

Pappy