Harrison Says He Won't Take a Paycut--Bye James!

[Oviedo]

He wants his money. Should we trade him?

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/2/12/3979684/steelers-james-harrison-contract-salary-cap-depth-chart-free-agency

[BradshawsHairdresser]

He wants his money. Should we trade him?

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/2/12/3979684/steelers-james-harrison-contract-salary-cap-depth-chart-free-agency


James may just be posturing...he probably knows that it wouldn't be all that wise, before he even sits down to negotiate, to say he's willing to take a big pay cut.

But if he's truly serious about what he says, then he will be cut. Hard to see a team that wants him making a trade at his current salary when they know the Steelers' cap situation...they know the Steelers will have to cut him and then they can negotiate a new (cheaper) contract.

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

No trade value for Harrison. He will be cut.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

Cut Harrison, Hampton, Foote, Troy, Clark, Colon. Trade Ike for 3rd round pick. Trade Ben to Zona for first and second this year and next year. Tank 2013/14 season. Draft AJ McCarron. Mister Pittsburgh pulls 3 way with McCarrons girlfriend and mom while tailgating.

[BradshawsHairdresser]

They may well cut Harrison, Hampton, Foote, and Troy. I don't see a huge savings in cutting Clark at this point; relative to his play he's pretty affordable. Colon is a more difficult case...I think they'd like to part ways, but with his contract being what it is, they might keep him on. Can't see them trading Ike this season, and certainly not Ben. Sorry, but you'll have to find someone else for your "3 way."

[Oviedo]

They may well cut Harrison, Hampton, Foote, and Troy. I don't see a huge savings in cutting Clark at this point; relative to his play he's pretty affordable. Colon is a more difficult case...I think they'd like to part ways, but with his contract being what it is, they might keep him on. Can't see them trading Ike this season, and certainly not Ben. Sorry, but you'll have to find someone else for your "3 way."

Agree. Clark isn't cost prohibitive however his health issues may result in his being let go. Heard that his injury at the end of the season was worse than originally thought.

[flippy]

I bet the coaches are still afraid to cut him.

[phillyesq]

More than most guys, it is tough to blame James for wanting the money. After all, he got a late start and did not get his first big payday until his current contract.

I would like for the Steelers to find a way to retain James because if they don't, I think the defense will suffer. Timmons was much better last year after Harrison returned and the whole defense improved after his return. He makes the rest of the D better.

That said, last year, Harrison was one of the few players whose contracts was not restructured. I think that was a prelude to a likely release this offseason. By not restructing James last year, there is less dead money if he is cut this year. I hope that I'm wrong, but fear that Harrison will be released.

[squidkid]

i dont see harrison making more with another team and i dont see the steelers lowballing the **** out of him either.
i think harrison may have hurt himself by taking offf otas and training camp and not rehabbing his knee until the season started. his value would have been higher. lets see if vacationing last year will hurt his wallet this year.

[fezziwig]

I thought James said right after the season he didn't see himself being on the Steelers team next season ? If that is true to me that meant, it's his way or no way and he knows the Steelers won't cough up the money that they have already agreed upon.
Harrison will be gone and by the start of the 2014 season I see few players this year being on the team as they are now.

If they're not gone by this season I see the following players gone by 2014.


Hampton
Harrison
Polamalu
Kiesel
Taylor
Clark
Colon
Maybe even Heath Miller.

By 2014 Ben will be the senior most player on the team and then we will be talking about his replacement. All you Ben haters, hold on to your hats because it will be a long time before we get someone of the caliber of Ben. I see the Steelers getting excited over divisonal wins at some point with playoffs being a dream. We've had it good for too long and we haven't had the front office or coaching staff being able/capable enough to get the right players in or develope the players that we do have.

[steelmann58]

No reason to judge until we see what the steelers do. my concern is there no depth at that position

[pittpete]

Cut him and its 3.2 million cap hit, trade him and its a 3.2 million cap hit, 9.7 to keep him this year.
Can't restructure an aging 35 year old OLB with injuries.
Just doesn't make much sense.
Thank you for your services James

[fezziwig]

No reason to judge until we see what the steelers do. my concern is there no depth at that position


Plan for the worse, be grateful for the good that happens. That has always been my motto.

[Djfan]

I'm going to be really sad the day he is gone. Miller, too. To me, they embody the old Steelers. Ben does, too, but not as much as them.

[Chadman]

You know, Chadman never thought the Steelers would recover from losing Greg Lloyd. Or Rod Woodson. Levon Kirkland. Joey Porter.

But they always did recover. There's ALWAYS a young player that will help the team recover. It could be Worilds. It could be Carter. It could be Adrian Robinson, or even a draft pick.

Or it might be the guy drafted next year.

But the Steelers will recover. And James Harrison will always be loved by Steeler Nation, even if he plays in a different uniform next season.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

Nowhere does anyone state that he will refuse a pay cut. Only his agent says that he doesn't think that he will have to.

[Sugar]

Nowhere does anyone state that he will refuse a pay cut. Only his agent says that he doesn't think that he will have to.

There you go reading beyond the headline again...

[Oviedo]

I'm going to be really sad the day he is gone. Miller, too. To me, they embody the old Steelers. Ben does, too, but not as much as them.

We don't need "old Steelers" we need "new Steelers" who can get the job done. Remember, at one time Harrison and Miller were the "new Steelers" too.

[Oviedo]

You know, Chadman never thought the Steelers would recover from losing Greg Lloyd. Or Rod Woodson. Levon Kirkland. Joey Porter.

But they always did recover. There's ALWAYS a young player that will help the team recover. It could be Worilds. It could be Carter. It could be Adrian Robinson, or even a draft pick.

Or it might be the guy drafted next year.

But the Steelers will recover. And James Harrison will always be loved by Steeler Nation, even if he plays in a different uniform next season.

Uh...one member of the Steelers Nation will not love Harrison in another uniform and that is me. Once they choose to suit up for the enemy I have no affinity for these guys at all. My loyalty is to the organization not temporary occupants of a certain position.

[Djfan]

We don't need "old Steelers" we need "new Steelers" who can get the job done. Remember, at one time Harrison and Miller were the "new Steelers" too.

So, now I'm hoping for the resigning of Andy Russell? Whatever. My point, Sir, is that the Steelers brand of blue-collar football player is my preference for this team, as opposed to the media whores you see in Dallas.

But, enjoy the either-or fallacy if you wish.

[Chadman]

Uh...one member of the Steelers Nation will not love Harrison in another uniform and that is me. Once they choose to suit up for the enemy I have no affinity for these guys at all. My loyalty is to the organization not temporary occupants of a certain position.

Well, it won't be Harrison's fault he wears different colours next season, so Chadman at least won't hold it against him.

[Oviedo]

Well, it won't be Harrison's fault he wears different colours next season, so Chadman at least won't hold it against him.

So you will be pulling for him to sack Ben? Not me. I'll be pulling for him to pull a hamstring gainst the Steelers.

The way I see it is that when he is gone, he is gone.

[Chadman]

So you will be pulling for him to sack Ben? Not me. I'll be pulling for him to pull a hamstring gainst the Steelers.

The way I see it is that when he is gone, he is gone.

You mistake supporting him to succeed against us with effection toward the player he has been for the Steelers.

Regardless of who he plays for, he'll be one of Chadman's more favourite recent Steelers. Doesn't mean Chadman wants to see him go medieval on the Steelers.

[papillon]

James Harrison is the one player of all the current players that from a personal perspective if I were the GM I would do everything to retain his services until he sees fit to retire. When I think about the Steelers of the 70s as a kid and the attitude that Lambert gave to the game and Steelers, his work ethic, the 100% effort every stinkin play and the great plays that went along with those qualities, I see James Harrison.

His work ethic and disposition remind me of Lambert, his splash plays remind me of Lambert and his love of the game that has been good to him are beyond reproach in my opinion. I would do everything possible to keep him a Steeler until he says he's had enough, he's the Lambert of this decade. I'm going to miss his "FU" attitude towards Goodell and his passion to hit hard and make the offense pay physically and mentally for having him make a tackle. I really hope it isn't this year, I want to see what's left in the tank. I believe there's a lot more left than we are giving him credit. I need to see with my own eyes that his days of being dominant are done.

Harrison rehabbed the injury while playing and got stronger game by game, if you're falling apart physically that doesn't happen. I'm going to miss me some James Harrison some day (hopefully, not 2013), not looking forward to seeing another player wearing #92.

Pappy

[Oviedo]

James Harrison is the one player of all the current players that from a personal perspective if I were the GM I would do everything to retain his services until he sees fit to retire. When I think about the Steelers of the 70s as a kid and the attitude that Lambert gave to the game and Steelers, his work ethic, the 100% effort every stinkin play and the great plays that went along with those qualities, I see James Harrison.

His work ethic and disposition remind me of Lambert, his splash plays remind me of Lambert and his love of the game that has been good to him are beyond reproach in my opinion. I would do everything possible to keep him a Steeler until he says he's had enough, he's the Lambert of this decade. I'm going to miss his "FU" attitude towards Goodell and his passion to hit hard and make the offense pay physically and mentally for having him make a tackle. I really hope it isn't this year, I want to see what's left in the tank. I believe there's a lot more left than we are giving him credit. I need to see with my own eyes that his days of being dominant are done.

Harrison rehabbed the injury while playing and got stronger game by game, if you're falling apart physically that doesn't happen. I'm going to miss me some James Harrison some day (hopefully, not 2013), not looking forward to seeing another player wearing #92.

Pappy


There was no salary cap when Lambert played. That makes all the difference in world. I have no doubt the Steelers would keep Harrison if he comes to their number that fits the cap needs. That would be totally on Harrison at that point.

[Bluto]

James Harrison is the one player of all the current players that from a personal perspective if I were the GM I would do everything to retain his services until he sees fit to retire. When I think about the Steelers of the 70s as a kid and the attitude that Lambert gave to the game and Steelers, his work ethic, the 100% effort every stinkin play and the great plays that went along with those qualities, I see James Harrison.

His work ethic and disposition remind me of Lambert, his splash plays remind me of Lambert and his love of the game that has been good to him are beyond reproach in my opinion. I would do everything possible to keep him a Steeler until he says he's had enough, he's the Lambert of this decade. I'm going to miss his "FU" attitude towards Goodell and his passion to hit hard and make the offense pay physically and mentally for having him make a tackle. I really hope it isn't this year, I want to see what's left in the tank. I believe there's a lot more left than we are giving him credit. I need to see with my own eyes that his days of being dominant are done.

Harrison rehabbed the injury while playing and got stronger game by game, if you're falling apart physically that doesn't happen. I'm going to miss me some James Harrison some day (hopefully, not 2013), not looking forward to seeing another player wearing #92.

Pappy

I agree 100 percent with this. The deal needs to make sense. Hopefully a fair restructure will work. The thing is with James. Even when he came back in the line up he was honest. He said he will not be himself for awhile because he was not as healthy as he needed to be. He said it would take time. And I think it did . The last month of our season he was the only one besides Cortez Allen who was forcing TO and making the splash plays. He has at least one more very good year if not 2 left. His body did not take the early beatings as most have. I think 6 million a year is okay for a guy who I bet hangs 10 to 12 sacks next year. More concerned with Woodleys game than James

[SteelBucks]

No trade value for Harrison. He will be cut.

Agreed....

[papillon]

There was no salary cap when Lambert played. That makes all the difference in world. I have no doubt the Steelers would keep Harrison if he comes to their number that fits the cap needs. That would be totally on Harrison at that point.

Yes, I realize there was no cap and really no free movement of players and this is the only reason that the Steelers' teams of the 70s stayed together; otherwise they would have been disassembled long before they won their 4th super bowl in 6 years. I'm only comparing James' and Jack's styles, attitudes and personas and they are quite similar, both are/were the enforcer of the defense, both played like each play is his last and neither has any great love for a quarterback (put a skirt on them). These guys are very high on my all time favorite Steeler list. It was a sad day when Jack hung them up and it will be equally sad for me when James hangs them up, is cut or released and is no longer a Steeler.

Pappy

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

I agree 100 percent with this. The deal needs to make sense. Hopefully a fair restructure will work. The thing is with James. Even when he came back in the line up he was honest. He said he will not be himself for awhile because he was not as healthy as he needed to be. He said it would take time. And I think it did . The last month of our season he was the only one besides Cortez Allen who was forcing TO and making the splash plays. He has at least one more very good year if not 2 left. His body did not take the early beatings as most have. I think 6 million a year is okay for a guy who I bet hangs 10 to 12 sacks next year. More concerned with Woodleys game than James

I'm not willing to trade the future to keep him around at that price with the questions surrounding him & the team.

So after the Baltimore game we won...In the next 3 must win games...Harrison had 10 TT-1 Sack-1 FF. This is when he was healthy and made all these splash plays. "He was in pass coverage!" Hmm.... 0 PD & 0 INT. I watch the games. I watch everygame at least twice. First time as fan and the other times to look at players. I had to look before & after plays to make sure Harrison was on the field. Woodley had a bad year. He will get a chance to rebound. Woodley is also 6 years younger than Harrison.

Harrison put up 1 year over 10.5 sacks and it was in 2008. Might be a little unrealistic to think he will play 16 games and get 10-12 sacks at 35.

The biggest thorn to this whole debate on your side...You mentioned. 6 mil a year. Harrison's cap hit for 2013 is over 10 mil. His vet min is $840,000. His bonuses for 2013 is 3.5 mil. So the absolute min his contract COULD be worth is 4.3 mil....Which he will not play for. The 3.5 mil is money already in his pocket. Is Harrison going to play for $52,500 a game? Even at you 6 mil number would be a base of 2.5 mil. To obtain that you would create 5.5 mil of dead money next year if you release him or a 2014 salary of 13.5 mil. Rooney isn't going to write a lump sum check for 4.5 million to cut a guy after this year. There just isn't any good way around this if he won't take a pay cut.

Put yourself in Rooney's shoes:

You walk away now and pay 0 additional dollars or you pay 6.5 million for a 35 year old?
Doing this will more than likely keep the Steelers from retaining Lewis for the future.
This will also keep a soon to be 25 year old 2nd round pick (In his last year of his rookie deal) off the field that you spent 3.6 mil on that may give you the same production.


I think it is simple. I'm NOT paying 6.5 mil to keep a 35 year old around for 1 year to lose a young starting CB for the next 5 years or find out if I have his replacement at OLB for the next 8-10 years.

[papillon]

JPN, based on what I saw this year, there really isn't a future on this current roster on defense or at least a future that looks bright.

Worilds? - Maybe, but didn't do anything to really say, "I can't wait to see him full time."
Carter? - Definitely not
Robinson? - Definitely not
Woodley? - Heck over the past two years I can't say that his future is still as bright as it was three years ago
Sylvester? - Definitely not
Hood/Heyward? - Same as Worilds, maybe
McClendon? - Couldn't win the job from Casey, so a "maybe" at best
T'amu? - nope, more off the field news than on the field
Golden/Will Allen? - Not really, do you want them as our starting safety tandem?
Lewis/Cortez Allen? - The only ones that really look to be on the rise and there is a strong possibility that Lewis won't be a Steeler

So, I don't really see the future on defense, maybe its there and I have no idea how to evaluate these guys, but I didn't see anything other than Lewis and Cortez Allen that said, man the future is really bright at that position.

IMO, the Steelers need to find a way to work some guys in this year and keep some vets and then complete the transition in 2014. Cleaning house this year may put the Steelers at 3rd or 4th in the division for more than 1 year, IMO, unless, tremendous strides are made by a handful of young players and I just don't see it.

Pappy

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

There you go reading beyond the headline again...

And for that I apologize sir. :D

[Ghost]

JPN, based on what I saw this year, there really isn't a future on this current roster on defense or at least a future that looks bright.

Worilds? - Maybe, but didn't do anything to really say, "I can't wait to see him full time."
Carter? - Definitely not
Robinson? - Definitely not
Woodley? - Heck over the past two years I can't say that his future is still as bright as it was three years ago
Sylvester? - Definitely not
Hood/Heyward? - Same as Worilds, maybe
McClendon? - Couldn't win the job from Casey, so a "maybe" at best
T'amu? - nope, more off the field news than on the field
Golden/Will Allen? - Not really, do you want them as our starting safety tandem?
Lewis/Cortez Allen? - The only ones that really look to be on the rise and there is a strong possibility that Lewis won't be a Steeler

So, I don't really see the future on defense, maybe its there and I have no idea how to evaluate these guys, but I didn't see anything other than Lewis and Cortez Allen that said, man the future is really bright at that position.

IMO, the Steelers need to find a way to work some guys in this year and keep some vets and then complete the transition in 2014. Cleaning house this year may put the Steelers at 3rd or 4th in the division for more than 1 year, IMO, unless, tremendous strides are made by a handful of young players and I just don't see it.

Pappy

This is a scary post but one I agree with quite a bit. Whole lot of "maybe" and "no" when it comes to replacements. There will need to be a huge level in improvement of play form the players you list just to get to decent.

[Oviedo]

This is a scary post but one I agree with quite a bit. Whole lot of "maybe" and "no" when it comes to replacements. There will need to be a huge level in improvement of play form the players you list just to get to decent.

I think James Harrison was also considered a big "maybe" replacing Porter. I remember the whining about the loss of leadership and motivation when Porter was let go. How'd that work out? We heard the same thing when Plaxico left and Stupidio Holmes left. Guess what? new guys got a chance and performed just like they will when all these vets leave.

[fezziwig]

It's scary because it's true. He actually gave too much credit to Hood and Heyward. I hope Tomlin and staff do not believe Mundy is the answer in any situation. Let's not forget what players will also be on the outs or on the downside of their proffesion come 2014. Ike Taylor is probably on his last high this seasons to where, his physical abilities will decline but he can ride his veteran smarts. After a while, the smarts will no longer be able to keep him on the filed once he gets slower, more injuries and all that comes along with age and contracts.

Clark is the same along with Troy and one of these days we will watch a Steeler highlight film and see all our past players and realize we are back to ground zero. If I'm right about my predictions I will also say Tomlin will only last 7 or 8 more seasons with the Steelers and they'll annouce his retirement. Just like they did with Arians. After that, we will have another few to several years of an up hill battle only IF they start drafting and developing players like they did under Cowher. Cowhers only problem was, he thought he could reach the promise land with glorified backup quarterbacks.

I might not even turn the TV on for several more seasons. :( Don't be too upset with me with my glass is half empty attitude. Three or four beers this weekend and I'll see all the positives and predict we will win next seasons Super Bowl. I'm a bummer when I'm sober but, I do make a very happy drunk. :Cheers

[fezziwig]

I think James Harrison was also considered a big "maybe" replacing Porter. I remember the whining about the loss of leadership and motivation when Porter was let go. How'd that work out? We heard the same thing when Plaxico left and Stupidio Holmes left. Guess what? new guys got a chance and performed just like they will when all these vets leave.


I was actually glad Joey was off the team but, I had no idea Harrison would do so well. As much as I stood in Plaxicos corner when he was a Steeler, I wasn't upset that he was gone. I remember him making the difficult catches but missing the ones that hit his hands. I was very high on Holmes especially with the omen of, he was the first receiver taken that season in the draft coming from a predicted weak receivers draft class. To me it was like having the number one over all pick and I knew Santonio had some talent.


The only players I've seen a little spark from the above mentioned are, Worilds and McClendon. I don't don't know if those sparks can light the fire.

[BigRob]

If I'm right about my predictions I will also say Tomlin will only last 7 or 8 more seasons with the Steelers and they'll annouce his retirement.


This is hilarious. I hope your being sarcastic.

Tomlin will only last 14 seasons and will be considered a failure for 2 Super Bowl appearances and one win? This will be considered a failure?

Cowher lasted 15 seasons with 2 Super Bowl appearances and one win. Is he is the second GOAT coach of the Steelers next to Knoll?

I would hope that Steelers fans would realize this will take three years to re-load/re-build. Look at 98-2000 as an example of what can be done.

[papillon]

I think James Harrison was also considered a big "maybe" replacing Porter. I remember the whining about the loss of leadership and motivation when Porter was let go. How'd that work out? We heard the same thing when Plaxico left and Stupidio Holmes left. Guess what? new guys got a chance and performed just like they will when all these vets leave.

If I recall correctly the year before Porter was released Harrison actually saw a decent amount of playing time due to injury to Porter and that was the year he made the interception and hurdled the Charger defender as one of his signature plays. I'm not certain, but I think that's when that all happened and the drop off from Porter to Harrison wasn't that great, so the FO believed they had Porter's replacement. I just don't see anyone replacing Harrison's production even in a year when he admits to be playing significantly less than 100%. No player could step up and take the job from him and, so, a play making position on defense will be left in the hands of a rookie or a young player that couldn't take the job away from an 80%-90% healthy James Harrison.

Pappy

[BigRob]

If I recall correctly the year before Porter was released Harrison actually saw a decent amount of playing time due to injury to Porter and that was the year he made the interception and hurdled the Charger defender as one of his signature plays. I'm not certain, but I think that's when that all happened and the drop off from Porter to Harrison wasn't that great, so the FO believed they had Porter's replacement. I just don't see anyone replacing Harrison's production even in a year when he admits to be playing significantly less than 100%. No player could step up and take the job from him and, so, a play making position on defense will be left in the hands of a rookie or a young player that couldn't take the job away from an 80%-90% healthy James Harrison.

Pappy

Harrison never took Porter's job. Porter played out 2006 as the starter and was about the same level of play that year Harrison is at now. Porter's 2006 season and Harrison's 2012 season are eerily similar.

Porter was healthier and younger at that point than Harrison is now. Why all the hubbub about keeping a 35 year old player that is starting to breakdown?

They took a calculated risk on James Harrison based on spot duty up to that point. In 2006 James had 5 tackles and 3 assist to go along with .5 tackles for loss.

Before 2007 James Harrison had one good game starting for Joey Porter in 2004 and a good game against San Diego in 2005. He showed flashes of being a player.

However, takes a look at Worilds. He had 5 sacks in limited snaps. The Steelers will take a calculated risk that he can replace Harrison this year.

This will be the first season that Worilds will get a full offseason healthy and a full offseason of OTA's and mini-camps.

This gives me hope. Along with the fact he was lifting weights with Harrison like a mad man once healthy this year.

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

JPN, based on what I saw this year, there really isn't a future on this current roster on defense or at least a future that looks bright.

Worilds? - Maybe, but didn't do anything to really say, "I can't wait to see him full time."
Carter? - Definitely not
Robinson? - Definitely not
Woodley? - Heck over the past two years I can't say that his future is still as bright as it was three years ago
Sylvester? - Definitely not
Hood/Heyward? - Same as Worilds, maybe
McClendon? - Couldn't win the job from Casey, so a "maybe" at best
T'amu? - nope, more off the field news than on the field
Golden/Will Allen? - Not really, do you want them as our starting safety tandem?
Lewis/Cortez Allen? - The only ones that really look to be on the rise and there is a strong possibility that Lewis won't be a Steeler

So, I don't really see the future on defense, maybe its there and I have no idea how to evaluate these guys, but I didn't see anything other than Lewis and Cortez Allen that said, man the future is really bright at that position.

IMO, the Steelers need to find a way to work some guys in this year and keep some vets and then complete the transition in 2014. Cleaning house this year may put the Steelers at 3rd or 4th in the division for more than 1 year, IMO, unless, tremendous strides are made by a handful of young players and I just don't see it.

Pappy
There are alot of maybes Pap. Most from limited playing time. If we knew the answers to the maybes we could all sleep better. The only ones who have a better idea if the Steelers. We can only guess. My guess based upon their actions?

Worilds - I believe the Steelers feel he is next in line.
Carter - Still a work in progress. Depth until he shows more.
Robinson - They liked something to protect him on the 53.
Woodley - Still the man after a down year. Nothing to worry about.
Sylvester - May be just depth and a role player on ST. We will find out about inside this year.
Hood/Heyward - No reason to think they aren't the future.
McClendon - You won't see Casey back because of him. Casey was making 4.9 mil last year on a guranteed contract. Do you think a healthy Hampton would have been benched?
T'amu - Bent over backwards to keep him even after his problems. That tells you something.
Golden - I took Allen off. He shouldn't be here on this list. Again, thought enough of Golden to keep him on 53. He may have a shot at the future FS.
Lewis/Cortez Allen - Love the CB depth. Lewis should be the #1 priority.

The Steelers were 3rd in the divsion with this roster. What makes anyone think keeping these declining over paid underachieving 30+ year olds will drink from the fountain of youth and give us one for the Chief and all can ride off into the sunset and retire Steelers after they win the SB in 2013 has me puzzled. I know KC can figure it out.

[nick]

i know you dont think tomlin is a better coach then cowher, tomlin should have been fired this year , bring back cowher , tomlin cant handle a old team that is proven

[papillon]

There are alot of maybes Pap. Most from limited playing time. If we knew the answers to the maybes we could all sleep better. The only ones who have a better idea if the Steelers. We can only guess. My guess based upon their actions?

Worilds - I believe the Steelers feel he is next in line.
Carter - Still a work in progress. Depth until he shows more.
Robinson - They liked something to protect him on the 53.
Woodley - Still the man after a down year. Nothing to worry about.
Sylvester - May be just depth and a role player on ST. We will find out about inside this year.
Hood/Heyward - No reason to think they aren't the future.
McClendon - You won't see Casey back because of him. Casey was making 4.9 mil last year on a guranteed contract. Do you think a healthy Hampton would have been benched?
T'amu - Bent over backwards to keep him even after his problems. That tells you something.
Golden - I took Allen off. He shouldn't be here on this list. Again, thought enough of Golden to keep him on 53. He may have a shot at the future FS.
Lewis/Cortez Allen - Love the CB depth. Lewis should be the #1 priority.

The Steelers were 3rd in the divsion with this roster. What makes anyone think keeping these declining over paid underachieving 30+ year olds will drink from the fountain of youth and give us one for the Chief and all can ride off into the sunset and retire Steelers after they win the SB in 2013 has me puzzled. I know KC can figure it out.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The veterans that everyone wants to release, cut or dump in some fashion are by far the best option this team has to be a winner and contender next year and, IMO, it isn't even close. You've got the glass half full and I believe that the glass is near empty with the young guys. Many were kept on the 53 simply because you have to fill the roster in my estimation, Golden, Sylvester, Robinson, Carter, et al. I hope I am so wrong that you can drudge up this thread 9 months from now and tell me, "see I told you so Pap", I just don't see it happening.

If the Steelers cut or release every veteran that has been proposed on this board they will be fortunate to win 6 games and that will be because Ben is worth about 4-5 games a year, with an average quarterback and the young defense for which everyone is clamoring they would win about 2 games. None of these younger players were even pushing a veteran for playing time, Hood and Heyward were handed playing time because Smitty retired otherwise, they'd probably still be waiting for Smitty to retire. Hell, Keisel was the best defensive lineman the Steelers had and he's 34 and has been a good player, but no one is mistaking him for the Hall of Fame.

No one could dislodge Harrison at 85% in his own words he was playing and rehabbing. Damn, how do you not push Harrison out of a job if he isn't 100%? Because, he's still the best OLB they have, thankfully, Timmons is playing very well or Harrison would be the best LB on the team at 34.

Hampton in all reality shouldn't have seen any snaps unless an injury occurred and, yet, he was a two down NT this past season with relief from McClendon on third down.

Going younger just for the sake of going younger is a recipe in my mind for more than one or two down years. You hope they develop and if they don't you're drafting to replace a player that was drafted to replace a player and that's never a good thing.

Like this year, the Steelers need an RB and a WR, they drafted Mendenhall and Wallace to be those guys, now they have to draft their replacements. I know the cap situation is burdensome and is the biggest reason for all of this, but the reality, IMO, is that if they clean house this year the Steelers will need the current young guys to become the players they were expected to be or hope they hit it big in the draft.

Pappy

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

That is fair Pap. You know I am not one of the "I told you so" guys. We have all been spot on and a "shade" off. lol

Doesn't matter who is right or wrong here. If you are right, the Steelers failed miserably on draft choice and talent evaluating that will set the team back. We are talking about 2 first rounders and a second. You miss sometimes but the Steelers are good early. They players in waiting have been on the roster 3 or more years so that is alot of wasted time and resources if your theory is true. I don't believe that is the case but we will see. Players are not kept on the Steelesr roster simply as roster fillers. They have potential or can contribute.

The arrow on this team is not going up because of any of the guys being thrown around as cuts. A year younger they showed an 8-8. The teams ceiling for 2013 is set by the guys behind the starters who will replace them or the draft class. That is the whole reason they are in the "cut" conversation if someone is behind them. They are older and the gap has closed. Their salary and the Steelers cap situation makes them a candidate. This team is sitting between 7-9 & 9-7 with and without the vets everyone wants to hold on to. The window is that close. To keep a "fan favorite" vet you lose a young talent. You are washing the talent for a year or two but hurting the teams future.

I keep hearing from everyone about a young guy not being able to take a vets spot so that makes them garbage...Give up on him! I will start off by saying all of them signed their last contract with nobody in place behind them with certainty. That is a huge part of my evalution process on what is going to transpire. The Steelers had the "luxury" over the last several drafts to take the BPA because they didn't have many holes on their roster and were competing. The drafted guys at positions to learn behind very productive vets. If it is close, the vets are going to start. It would take ALOT to unseat a vet at the beginning or middle of a contract. The business side of the game will tell you when it is time. Until that time, you are building a talented deep roster that contends almost every year. BUT....At some point the scale tilts...And the change has to be made to transition & stay competive. That time comes at the end of the contract and when the player is in decline.

I mentioned in another post about the starters in place each year after Cowher's last year. Stability & low turnover has been the key to their success. 11-2012, 16-2011, 16-2010, 18-2009, 19-2008, & 20-2007. That was the core run. 50% of the starters were still in place last year from Cowher. That can't last forever. People are taking to heart the name on the back of the jersey. It isn't about that. We will all luv and respect them if they move on. It is about what is best for the organization now & the future. You never sacrifice the future for NOW to be a successful organization. You always have to consider the future for the now. We have seen what happens if you don't. You create "Gaps" of production that goes years & years. The Steelers have always lived by that philosophy. When the time comes and that decision that we all hate has to be made....They make it on the future. We didn't think there was a chance they would let Woodson, Lake, Faneca, LLoyd, or Thigpen leave via FA. We sure the hell didn't think the Steelers would cut our heroes like Kirkland, Porter, Farrior, or Ward. The Steelers are right in the middle of it again...Over their heads. They don't have the ability to hold on to all their young talent.... But they will scramble to try.

I don't think this is a case of going younger just to go younger. I think in most cases it is a matter of going younger because the gap has closed based on the vets decline and the salary cap issues makes it a must. Simply saying he is the "Best Option" would mean something if they all got the same paycheck. It is a business..No matter how you look at it. So "The Right Option" makes more sense. A 2013 35 year old Harrison couting 10 mil or a 25 year old Worilds counting $985,000 against the cap. The production gap has been narrowed significantly. Now add in the fact that keeping Harrison may cost you Lewis or other URFA and not give you a clear evaluation on Worilds for his next contract. So now you offer Worilds less than he thinks he is worth and goes elsewhere and flurishes. Or the more damaging thing, you offer Worilds too much based on what you think he could be (Because he doesn't have a full year starting) and it turns out to be a mistake. If I'm playing one game and need an OLB the "Best Option" is Harrison. If I'm trying to run an organization and I am faced with above... the "Right Option" would be Worilds.

[fezziwig]

I'm not sure Cowher could have won another Super Bowl let alone made it to two Super Bowls like Tomlin. Cowhers days as a Steeler coach seemed to be running on fumes. He had his favorite players and I commend him for being in their corner but, I doubt we would have ever learned what a sensation James Harrison would be had Cowher remained on the team. I doubt we would have had the players that won our last Super Bowl, plugged in at the time as starters under Cowher.
Obviously it's just my guess and maybe they were a franchise of destiny at that time with or without Bill.

With Art II being more aggressive in my opinion to win Super Bowls and to see results quicker than Art Sr. and Dan Rooney, I think they will calculate for a new had coach a little faster the next time they see their team/teams not making the grade.

The reason why I say this is, at the end of the 2003 season Art II was interviewed ( a quick in passing interview ) and asked what he thought about the season and the new season ahead of us/them for 2004. Art II quickly snapped back with, " I'm ready to win the Super Bowl " We should be winning Super Bowls " (Something to those words) He was ticked off and he didn't hold back with his emotions. I never gave him much thought on the like and dislike meter but after that, I like and respect Art II. When he fired Arians and I think it was on him,, when he fired Arians I knew this guy can see where the problems were at with our offense.

It just so happened Cowher won a Super Bowl the following season in 2004.

[phillyesq]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The veterans that everyone wants to release, cut or dump in some fashion are by far the best option this team has to be a winner and contender next year and, IMO, it isn't even close. You've got the glass half full and I believe that the glass is near empty with the young guys. Many were kept on the 53 simply because you have to fill the roster in my estimation, Golden, Sylvester, Robinson, Carter, et al. I hope I am so wrong that you can drudge up this thread 9 months from now and tell me, "see I told you so Pap", I just don't see it happening.

If the Steelers cut or release every veteran that has been proposed on this board they will be fortunate to win 6 games and that will be because Ben is worth about 4-5 games a year, with an average quarterback and the young defense for which everyone is clamoring they would win about 2 games. None of these younger players were even pushing a veteran for playing time, Hood and Heyward were handed playing time because Smitty retired otherwise, they'd probably still be waiting for Smitty to retire. Hell, Keisel was the best defensive lineman the Steelers had and he's 34 and has been a good player, but no one is mistaking him for the Hall of Fame.

No one could dislodge Harrison at 85% in his own words he was playing and rehabbing. Damn, how do you not push Harrison out of a job if he isn't 100%? Because, he's still the best OLB they have, thankfully, Timmons is playing very well or Harrison would be the best LB on the team at 34.

Hampton in all reality shouldn't have seen any snaps unless an injury occurred and, yet, he was a two down NT this past season with relief from McClendon on third down.

Going younger just for the sake of going younger is a recipe in my mind for more than one or two down years. You hope they develop and if they don't you're drafting to replace a player that was drafted to replace a player and that's never a good thing.

Like this year, the Steelers need an RB and a WR, they drafted Mendenhall and Wallace to be those guys, now they have to draft their replacements. I know the cap situation is burdensome and is the biggest reason for all of this, but the reality, IMO, is that if they clean house this year the Steelers will need the current young guys to become the players they were expected to be or hope they hit it big in the draft.

Pappy

Very well said.

[Northern_Blitz]

Going younger just for the sake of going younger is a recipe in my mind for more than one or two down years. You hope they develop and if they don't you're drafting to replace a player that was drafted to replace a player and that's never a good thing.

If we cut Harrison, it won't be getting younger for the sake of getting younger. It will be 100% about the salary cap. With no cap, we'd keep guys like JH all the time until they're done because they are still productive when they're on the field and you don`t lose anything (but money) by keeping them. But if Worilds has to play 25% of the time anyway (JH has started 24/32 games over 2 seasons), is it worth saving Harrison's cap hit to keep a guy like Lewis? That's why the FO gets paid the big bucks.

[fezziwig]

It might be a fluke that James Harrison has had his share of injuries these last two seasons. The Steelers gambled in my opinion on Aron Smith and to me it failed. They have also been rolling the dice with Colon and failed. If I was to feel we should get rid of James Harrison it is only due to being worried if he can make it through a season. As mentioned on the above post or two, I'd take a 85% James Harrison over anyone on our team.
And you guys are right as rain, the old guys are still better than the young guys but at some point, you need to allow the youth their chance and learn if they can get the job done.

I'd rather go 6-10 knowing we are trying to improve our team rather than going 8-8 or 10-6 with knowing that, we are skating on thin ice with guys that should retire or are no longer the long term future. My way of thinking is we may have found some young guys that have finally taken control of the team, their career and improved or we get higher draft picks and eventually we will be a power house again.

Skirting each season as a 500 team plus or minus a game or two either way doesn't build a good team, it just keeps you at 500 for seasons to come.

[papillon]

That is fair Pap. You know I am not one of the "I told you so" guys. We have all been spot on and a "shade" off. lol

Doesn't matter who is right or wrong here. If you are right, the Steelers failed miserably on draft choice and talent evaluating that will set the team back. We are talking about 2 first rounders and a second. You miss sometimes but the Steelers are good early. They players in waiting have been on the roster 3 or more years so that is alot of wasted time and resources if your theory is true. I don't believe that is the case but we will see. Players are not kept on the Steelesr roster simply as roster fillers. They have potential or can contribute.

The arrow on this team is not going up because of any of the guys being thrown around as cuts. A year younger they showed an 8-8. The teams ceiling for 2013 is set by the guys behind the starters who will replace them or the draft class. That is the whole reason they are in the "cut" conversation if someone is behind them. They are older and the gap has closed. Their salary and the Steelers cap situation makes them a candidate. This team is sitting between 7-9 & 9-7 with and without the vets everyone wants to hold on to. The window is that close. To keep a "fan favorite" vet you lose a young talent. You are washing the talent for a year or two but hurting the teams future.

I keep hearing from everyone about a young guy not being able to take a vets spot so that makes them garbage...Give up on him! I will start off by saying all of them signed their last contract with nobody in place behind them with certainty. That is a huge part of my evalution process on what is going to transpire. The Steelers had the "luxury" over the last several drafts to take the BPA because they didn't have many holes on their roster and were competing. The drafted guys at positions to learn behind very productive vets. If it is close, the vets are going to start. It would take ALOT to unseat a vet at the beginning or middle of a contract. The business side of the game will tell you when it is time. Until that time, you are building a talented deep roster that contends almost every year. BUT....At some point the scale tilts...And the change has to be made to transition & stay competive. That time comes at the end of the contract and when the player is in decline.

I mentioned in another post about the starters in place each year after Cowher's last year. Stability & low turnover has been the key to their success. 11-2012, 16-2011, 16-2010, 18-2009, 19-2008, & 20-2007. That was the core run. 50% of the starters were still in place last year from Cowher. That can't last forever. People are taking to heart the name on the back of the jersey. It isn't about that. We will all luv and respect them if they move on. It is about what is best for the organization now & the future. You never sacrifice the future for NOW to be a successful organization. You always have to consider the future for the now. We have seen what happens if you don't. You create "Gaps" of production that goes years & years. The Steelers have always lived by that philosophy. When the time comes and that decision that we all hate has to be made....They make it on the future. We didn't think there was a chance they would let Woodson, Lake, Faneca, LLoyd, or Thigpen leave via FA. We sure the hell didn't think the Steelers would cut our heroes like Kirkland, Porter, Farrior, or Ward. The Steelers are right in the middle of it again...Over their heads. They don't have the ability to hold on to all their young talent.... But they will scramble to try.

I don't think this is a case of going younger just to go younger. I think in most cases it is a matter of going younger because the gap has closed based on the vets decline and the salary cap issues makes it a must. Simply saying he is the "Best Option" would mean something if they all got the same paycheck. It is a business..No matter how you look at it. So "The Right Option" makes more sense. A 2013 35 year old Harrison couting 10 mil or a 25 year old Worilds counting $985,000 against the cap. The production gap has been narrowed significantly. Now add in the fact that keeping Harrison may cost you Lewis or other URFA and not give you a clear evaluation on Worilds for his next contract. So now you offer Worilds less than he thinks he is worth and goes elsewhere and flurishes. Or the more damaging thing, you offer Worilds too much based on what you think he could be (Because he doesn't have a full year starting) and it turns out to be a mistake. If I'm playing one game and need an OLB the "Best Option" is Harrison. If I'm trying to run an organization and I am faced with above... the "Right Option" would be Worilds.

JPN, I can't disagree with anything you say here. The business side of the game in this instance is causing the Steelers to probably make personnel decisions that they may not want to make this year when it comes to the veterans. I suffered through the 80s and the non competitiveness of the team after the HOFers retired or finally couldn't compete any longer. Unfortunately, while the majority of this crop of veterans aren't HOFers they are very good football players compared to those waiting to take over (IMO) and I fear the same. The only difference this time is that the Steelers do have a quarterback in place that is a proven winner.

In the next 3 to 4 weeks the Steelers will have to reveal their hand to a degree. I believe they have to be under the cap limit on or near March 14th. We'll know a lot at that point about the team and the draft in all likelihood.

Pappy

[Eich]

I'm not sure Cowher could have won another Super Bowl let alone made it to two Super Bowls like Tomlin. Cowhers days as a Steeler coach seemed to be running on fumes. He had his favorite players and I commend him for being in their corner but, I doubt we would have ever learned what a sensation James Harrison would be had Cowher remained on the team. I doubt we would have had the players that won our last Super Bowl, plugged in at the time as starters under Cowher.
Obviously it's just my guess and maybe they were a franchise of destiny at that time with or without Bill.

With Art II being more aggressive in my opinion to win Super Bowls and to see results quicker than Art Sr. and Dan Rooney, I think they will calculate for a new had coach a little faster the next time they see their team/teams not making the grade.

The reason why I say this is, at the end of the 2003 season Art II was interviewed ( a quick in passing interview ) and asked what he thought about the season and the new season ahead of us/them for 2004. Art II quickly snapped back with, " I'm ready to win the Super Bowl " We should be winning Super Bowls " (Something to those words) He was ticked off and he didn't hold back with his emotions. I never gave him much thought on the like and dislike meter but after that, I like and respect Art II. When he fired Arians and I think it was on him,, when he fired Arians I knew this guy can see where the problems were at with our offense.

It just so happened Cowher won a Super Bowl the following season in 2004.

Just a minor correction: 15-1 in 2004 with Rookie Ben. Super Bowl in 2005. Retired after poor 8-8 showing in 2006, where Ben nearly died.

[Oviedo]

JPN, I can't disagree with anything you say here. The business side of the game in this instance is causing the Steelers to probably make personnel decisions that they may not want to make this year when it comes to the veterans. I suffered through the 80s and the non competitiveness of the team after the HOFers retired or finally couldn't compete any longer. Unfortunately, while the majority of this crop of veterans aren't HOFers they are very good football players compared to those waiting to take over (IMO) and I fear the same. The only difference this time is that the Steelers do have a quarterback in place that is a proven winner.

In the next 3 to 4 weeks the Steelers will have to reveal their hand to a degree. I believe they have to be under the cap limit on or near March 14th. We'll know a lot at that point about the team and the draft in all likelihood.

Pappy

I'm not sure that we can write off the players who are waiting to step in. We don't know until they get a chance. People forget that in Porter's last year while Harrison got some spot playing time in 16 games he had "Zero" sacks and then in his first year as a starter he had 8.5. IMO Worilds is already further ahead in his development than Harrison was in the same situation. In spot playing time Worilds had 5 sacks in 2012. I think that everyone looks at 2008 and Harrison's 16 sacks and act like he's had that every year. He has had three consecutive years of 16, 10, and 10.5 sacks, but he has not hit double digits for two years now and has played a total of just 24 games in two years. Sorry, but that is player at the end of his career.

[fezziwig]

Just a minor correction: 15-1 in 2004 with Rookie Ben. Super Bowl in 2005. Retired after poor 8-8 showing in 2006, where Ben nearly died.


Yep your correct and thanks. But the point is, Art II spoke his mind with being upset and the following year the Steelers defeated the Seahawks in the Super Bowl. I wish he would gripe more when asked. Might be good mojo :)

[papillon]

I'm not sure that we can write off the players who are waiting to step in. We don't know until they get a chance. People forget that in Porter's last year while Harrison got some spot playing time in 16 games he had "Zero" sacks and then in his first year as a starter he had 8.5. IMO Worilds is already further ahead in his development than Harrison was in the same situation. In spot playing time Worilds had 5 sacks in 2012. I think that everyone looks at 2008 and Harrison's 16 sacks and act like he's had that every year. He has had three consecutive years of 16, 10, and 10.5 sacks, but he has not hit double digits for two years now and has played a total of just 24 games in two years. Sorry, but that is player at the end of his career.

I'd go along with that except Harrison played 13 games this year, missed the first month and took the next 6 games to get back to being James. He didn't get hurt the rest of the year and as you know from watching him over the years he doesn't play at half speed ever. He was stout in the running game and getting pressure on the quarterback regardless of what the one media rag says. He never was real good in coverage in large spaces, but on a condensed field (red zone) he was good at reading the short passing game.

I admit, I love James Harrison's style and attitude and he's one of my favorites of all time. I also know that his time is over with the Steelers and it isn't because of his production. I fully believe that in 2013 and 2014 he will get double digit sacks, 4 or 5 FF, 70-80 tackles and its doubtful that he gets an INT in either season. I wish it was for the Steelers, but its highly unlikely. I'll miss James Harrison.

Pappy

[JUST-PLAIN-NASTY]

JPN, I can't disagree with anything you say here. The business side of the game in this instance is causing the Steelers to probably make personnel decisions that they may not want to make this year when it comes to the veterans. I suffered through the 80s and the non competitiveness of the team after the HOFers retired or finally couldn't compete any longer. Unfortunately, while the majority of this crop of veterans aren't HOFers they are very good football players compared to those waiting to take over (IMO) and I fear the same. The only difference this time is that the Steelers do have a quarterback in place that is a proven winner.

In the next 3 to 4 weeks the Steelers will have to reveal their hand to a degree. I believe they have to be under the cap limit on or near March 14th. We'll know a lot at that point about the team and the draft in all likelihood.

Pappy

It will be an anxious time over the month...Even for us fans. I think you are spot on with the cuts even last year. Even the case of not re-signing vets. They all could have or would contribute in some capacity but the business side of football makes in almost impossible. Who wouldn't like to have the football player Harrison on this roster? If there is some years left in him....The Steelers could benefit even if in a rotation or reserve capacity. If $$$$ & FA wasn't the issues, you could find a way. Harrison won't take a pay cut and restructuring doesn't look like the answer. Add in the fact you have a 2nd rounder behind him 10 years younger headed for FA with not certainty because of lacks of snaps & starts to grow....It is a win-lose. Can't blame Harrison standing his ground and whatever happens won't change my feeling about him.