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SS Laser
02-09-2013, 01:06 AM
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1517898-why-was-steelers-ilb-lawrence-timmons-ignored-in-2012?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=pittsburgh-steelers
How is it possible that the player Pro Football Focus ranked the fourth-best (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2012&pos=ILB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1) inside linebacker in 2012 didnít make the Pro Bowl? How does it happen that the linebacker who increased his teamís win probability the most (http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?year=2012&pos=LB&season=reg) last year according to Advanced NFL Stats didnít make a single second-team All-NFL squad? How did the world not notice an inside linebacker who had two critical, game-changing interceptionsóat (http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/>Kansas City Chiefs</a> 13 <a href=) Pittsburgh Steelers (http://bleacherreport.com/pittsburgh-steelers) 16, one that set his team up for an overtime win and the at (http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/>Pittsburgh Steelers</a> 14 <a href=) Cleveland Browns (http://bleacherreport.com/cleveland-browns) 20, the other a return for a touchdown that kept his club in a game in which it committed eight turnovers? Why didnít more people recognize what a great year Steelers inside linebacker Lawrence Timmons had in 2012? The six-year veteran arguably had the finest all-around season of any inside linebacker last year. Timmons joined Seattle (http://bleacherreport.com/seattle-seahawks)ís Bobby Wagner as the only two linebackers to receive positive grades (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2012&pos=ILB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1) from Pro Football Focusís analysts in each of the three main areas in which that position is evaluated: stopping the run, defending against the pass and rushing the quarterback. As well as Patrick Willis, NaVarro Bowman and Luke Kuechly played, none of those stalwarts could boast such a comprehensively high level of play in 2012. Timmons was particularly strong as a pass rusher, finishing the season as the fifth (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/signature.php?tab=signature&season=2012&stype=r&pos=iop&teamid=-1&filter=50) most productive inside linebacker at generating pressure and netting the second most sacks of anyone at his position. Though slightly weaker (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/signature.php?tab=signature&season=2012&stype=r&pos=ios&teamid=-1&filter=50) against the run, Timmonsís efficiency (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/signature.php?tab=signature&season=2012&stype=r&pos=iot&teamid=-1&filter=50) at making tackles helped the Steelers linebacking corps rank fourth (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl) in the NFL in rushing yards allowed between five and 10 yards past the line of scrimmage. More importantly, as was demonstrated by the interceptions that won the Chiefs (http://bleacherreport.com/kansas-city-chiefs) game and nearly won the first Browns game, Timmons was one of the few impact players on a somewhat disappointing Steelers defense. So with all this in mind, why did everyone overlook Timmons while heaping praise on Willis, Bowman, Kuechly, Kansas Cityís Derrick Johnson and, sigh, Ray Lewis (http://bleacherreport.com/ray-lewis)? There are several reasons. For starters, not everyone expected him to have such a good year. Timmons came into the 2012 campaign on the heels of a disappointing 2011 season that may have made many observers forget how good he was in 2009 and 2010. According to Advanced NFL Statsí analysis, the Steeler ranked a dismal 69th (http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?year=2011&pos=LB&season=reg) among all linebackers in win probability added over the course of the 2011 campaign. That one down year may have overshadowed his stellar play in the previous two seasons, which saw him finish first (http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?year=2010&pos=LB&season=reg) and 14th (http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?year=2009&pos=LB&season=reg) in the same category. His struggles in 2011 were largely the result of having to play out of position while teammate James Harrison recovered from a facial injury. During the four games in which he was forced to play outside linebacker, Timmons generated only three quarterback pressures (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/27/fantasy-what-went-wrong-how-do-we-fix-it-lawrence-timmons/), a terrible figure for a player who excels at rushing the passer. He was also held without a tackle in a game for the first time in his career. Whatever the reason for the drop-off in his performance, a subpar 2011 may have led many to dismiss Timmons as a once-promising talent who had failed to live up to his early potential. As a result, they may have not been looking for a big 2012 from the Steelers linebacker and werenít paying attention when he turned one in. Reputation counts for a lot in how NFL players are viewed. Fans and league talent evaluators tend to give stars with a long track record of success a break when they have bad seasons later in their careers. Likewise, they will sometimes turn on less experienced players when they have an off year, believing that any previous good years were the aberration. Unfortunately, a good reputation is not something that can be built overnight. Timmons will have to put up more stellar seasons before he is cut the same slack as established stars like Lewis. The second reason why Timmonsís excellent season went largely unnoticed was the relatively poor play of his teamís defense. After several years of dominant play, the normally stout Pittsburgh defensive unit struggled to stop opponents in 2012. And in football, poor play from a group tends to taint how its individual members are viewed. Because it is difficult to isolate a particular playerís performance from those of the rest of his teammates, excellent individual play can get lost if the unit fails to produce overall. There is a reason why the Texans (http://bleacherreport.com/houston-texans)í offensive line and the 49ers (http://bleacherreport.com/san-francisco-49ers)' linebacking corps had two (http://www.nfl.com/probowl/story/0ap1000000117432/article/2013-pro-bowl-rosters-afc-nfc) Pro Bowlers each.

SS Laser
02-09-2013, 01:06 AM
Pittsburghís defense wasnít terrible last year, but it did slip in comparison to years past. Thanks to injuries and age, the Steelers went from allowing the fewest points in 2010 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2010/opp.htm) and 2011 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/opp.htm) to allowing the sixth (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/opp.htm) fewest last year. In Football Outsidersí rankings, Pittsburgh had the 13th (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2012) best defense in 2012, after ranking seventh (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2011) and first (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2010) in the two previous years. Not horrible, but bad enough that it wasn't a complete shock that the unit didnít get a single Pro Bowl nod. There are obvious exceptions to the tendency to penalize good players on bad teamsófor example, a Chiefs team that gave up the eighth (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/opp.htm) most points and the 13th most yards in 2012 somehow sent four (http://www.nfl.com/probowl/story/0ap1000000117432/article/2013-pro-bowl-rosters-afc-nfc) defenders to the Pro Bowlóbut a lot of players get too much or too little credit for their performance depending on how their team plays. And that was very likely what caused many to overlook Timmons this past year. The broader context in which Timmons played also worked against the Steelers linebacker in another, less intuitive way. Playing alongside well-known stars like Casey Hampton, Brett Keisel, LaMarr Woodley and Harrison, who have 12 Pro Bowls, six All-NFL selections and a Defensive Player of the Year Award among them, may have hurt Timmonsís chances of getting noticed in 2012. For those inclined to downplay Timmonsís contributions to the teamís defense, it might be tempting to argue that his success in 2012 was largely due to the quality of those surrounding him. Star players regularly make life easier for their less-talented colleagues. Except that that wasnít the case last year. All of the players mentioned above had a down year. Hampton ranked 78th (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2012&pos=DT&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1) among defensive tackles in 2012 after having placed 32nd (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2011&pos=DT&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1) the year before. Keisel slipped from being Pro Football Focusís fourth-ranked (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2011&pos=DE4&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1) 3-4 defensive end in 2011 to being 21st (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2012&pos=DE4&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1) and just below average this past year. As a result, Pittsburghís defensive line struggled to stop the run and generate pressure on the quarterback, ranking 22nd (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dl) in stopping opposing offenses on 3rd or 4th-and-short and coming in 11th in adjusted sack rate. Similarly, Woodley went from ranking 10th (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2011&pos=OLB4&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1) among 3-4 outside linebackers in 2011 to 13th (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2012&pos=OLB4&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1) in 2012, and Harrison fell from sixth to 10thon the same lists. The argument that Timmons benefited from playing with elite defenders in 2012 doesnít hold water, but playing alongside such high-profile teammates certainly obscured the season that the linebacker had. Hampton, Keisel, Woodley and Harrison are, quite simply, bigger names than Timmons and have a longer record of success. As was mentioned above, all those individual accolades carry weight and attract attention from fans and insiders alike. As a result, more ink was spilled about Hamptonís struggles and Harrisonís injuries than Timmonsís strong play. And that ties in with the final reason why very few took note of what Lawrence Timmons did in 2012. The Steelers linebacker is not an outsized personality who forces the world to acknowledge him. Unlike Lewis, the Steelers inside linebacker is Lawrence Timmons (http://www.planetsteelers.com/forums/href=) and the Two-Step Drop, quiet and soft-spoken off the field. Aside from a $21,000 fine incurred for a hit (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/20/lawrence-timmons-mad-at-21000-fine-for-hitting-mark-sanchez/) on Mark Sanchez (http://bleacherreport.com/mark-sanchez) in Week 2, Timmons also has largely avoided the controversies (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/6764826/james-harrison-pittsburgh-steelers-blasts-roger-goodell-magazine-interview) that have dogged his teammate Harrison throughout much of the latterís career. Fortunately or unfortunately, in the modern era of the NFL, getting noticed off the field makes people pay attention to what a player does on the field. Those who court publicity, whether good or bad, make announcers mention their names and fans watch them play. And that can change the publicís perception of how they measure up against their peers, especially when those players play less visible positions. And because Timmons doesnít talk trash like Bart Scott or have a flashy sack dance like many other linebackers, it will take longer for his good play to get noticed. On the plus side, however, if the Steelers linebacker continues to play at this level, the world will take notice. NFL fans and front office types can be slow to come around, but theyíre not stupid. Put up enough high-quality years, and people will take notice. The challenge for Timmons going forward is to show that 2010 and 2012 were no flukes.

Steelhere10
02-09-2013, 10:21 AM
Man I'm sorry, but how that is written I had to stop reading early.

Oviedo
02-09-2013, 12:27 PM
Maybe the hard core "Timmons haters" on this board have influenced the Pro Bowl selectors.

SS Laser
02-10-2013, 03:45 AM
Man I'm sorry, but how that is written I had to stop reading early.

Sorry about that if you mean my copy and paste. Reads MUCH better if you read from the link. I posted the content just for the lazy.:cool:

Jooser
02-10-2013, 07:05 AM
Well, Timmons had to drop TOO much into pass coverage because he is our best cover LB, that in itself influences his chances to even rush the QB...thus only three QB pressures last year.

jj28west
02-10-2013, 08:05 AM
"The second reason why Timmonsís excellent season went largely unnoticed was the relatively poor play of his teamís defense. After several years of dominant play, the normally stout Pittsburgh defensive unit struggled to stop opponents in 2012."
Sure, more sacks and int's would have been nice but c'mon.

Oviedo
02-10-2013, 10:20 AM
"The second reason why Timmons’s excellent season went largely unnoticed was the relatively poor play of his team’s defense. After several years of dominant play, the normally stout Pittsburgh defensive unit struggled to stop opponents in 2012."
Sure, more sacks and int's would have been nice but c'mon.

Sack and Ints are what is it is about because those are game changing plays. Being #1 in Yards allowed is a meaningless stat.

Slapstick
02-10-2013, 10:39 AM
Sack and Ints are what is it is about because those are game changing plays. Being #1 in Yards allowed is a meaningless stat.

But points allowed is not...

phillyesq
02-10-2013, 11:35 AM
Sack and Ints are what is it is about because those are game changing plays. Being #1 in Yards allowed is a meaningless stat.

Once again, ask Peyton Manning if those are the only game changing plays.

BATMAN
02-10-2013, 06:57 PM
How many seasons did it take for Timmons to be noticed and still did not make the pro bowl ? Making the pro bwl is nice but it doesn't always tell the truth about a player. A player could have one gret season maybe two or one great backed up with some nice seasons and he rides that reputation to the pro bowl for years to come.
I always thought Carnell Lake in the day deserved more pro bowl selections and Levon Kirkland too. Those two guys were way better than Timmons. Some people can't understand the hate fest towards Timmos and I can't understand the love fest for him. The guy at best is a utility player. Doesn't do anything extremely well but, hides himself well enough for some not to notice he is an over paid second stringer.
Congradulatios, all you with the rose colored glasses can be proud he had three or four good plays last season. It only took a number one pick, two big dollar contracts.

fezziwig
02-11-2013, 10:51 AM
How many seasons did it take for Timmons to be noticed and still did not make the pro bowl ? Making the pro bwl is nice but it doesn't always tell the truth about a player. A player could have one gret season maybe two or one great backed up with some nice seasons and he rides that reputation to the pro bowl for years to come.
I always thought Carnell Lake in the day deserved more pro bowl selections and Levon Kirkland too. Those two guys were way better than Timmons. Some people can't understand the hate fest towards Timmos and I can't understand the love fest for him. The guy at best is a utility player. Doesn't do anything extremely well but, hides himself well enough for some not to notice he is an over paid second stringer.
Congradulatios, all you with the rose colored glasses can be proud he had three or four good plays last season. It only took a number one pick, two big dollar contracts.


Ouch ! that's to the point. I'm not a fan of Timmons either. I guess he does his job and all that but I feel the time the Steelers have placed in him, the money they have spent on him, he wasn't worth it. I think someone else at a lower draft pick and a lower wage could do as well as Timmons. I guess I don't have a problem with Timmons at all, it's the coaches and Colbert I have the problem with. I do believe Tomlin will continue to cherish Timmons because he's his first number one draft pick as the Steelers head coach.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
02-11-2013, 12:01 PM
Timmons and Clark were easily the two best players on the D last season. I don't know what some of you were watching but he made a lot of plays, and there were games in which he was downright dominant.

If you look at the course of his career recently, he played well in 2009, better in '10, and fell off the planet in '11. He played a lot of that season shuffling around, and his play reflected that. This is not an excuse, but it is a reality that he is an ILB, not an OLB. We can expect that his poor 2011 season should not predict his future play if he stays at ILB.

Slapstick
02-11-2013, 12:09 PM
The point of the article is that, by their metrics, only one linebacker had a season as good as Lawrence Timmons in 2012...

Now, you can feel free to dislike Timmons all you want, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good player...who has had several good seasons and, last year, a great season...

phillyesq
02-11-2013, 12:47 PM
The point of the article is that, by their metrics, only one linebacker had a season as good as Lawrence Timmons in 2012...

Now, you can feel free to dislike Timmons all you want, but that doesn't mean he isn't a good player...who has had several good seasons and, last year, a great season...

... starting after James Harrison returned.

Timmons was invisible early in the season. His first really good game was against the Eagles (though his late hit against Sanchez was big in the Jets game).

A great player, an elite talent, should be able to carry the defense. Timmons has not been that guy yet.

Slapstick
02-11-2013, 02:24 PM
... starting after James Harrison returned.



I disagree.

Oviedo
02-11-2013, 02:55 PM
I disagree.

Wholeheartedly disagree too. Timmons was the only pass rush we had early in the season. He was being asked to do more than anyone on that defense given that Harrison, Troy and Woodley were missing in action.

fezziwig
02-11-2013, 05:49 PM
... starting after James Harrison returned.

Timmons was invisible early in the season. His first really good game was against the Eagles (though his late hit against Sanchez was big in the Jets game).

A great player, an elite talent, should be able to carry the defense. Timmons has not been that guy yet.

I agree Phillyesq. I also don't beleive he has been worth a number one draft selection or the big paychecks that he receives. He's an average player that ever so often brings attention to himself with a good play or two and then all the fans gush over him and make him out to be something more than he is.

Slapstick
02-11-2013, 06:13 PM
I agree Phillyesq. I also don't beleive he has been worth a number one draft selection or the big paychecks that he receives. He's an average player that ever so often brings attention to himself with a good play or two and then all the fans gush over him and make him out to be something more than he is.

In this case, it's Bleacher Report who "gushed over him"...because he played really well last season...

Steelerphile
02-11-2013, 06:23 PM
... starting after James Harrison returned.

Timmons was invisible early in the season. His first really good game was against the Eagles (though his late hit against Sanchez was big in the Jets game).

A great player, an elite talent, should be able to carry the defense. Timmons has not been that guy yet.

The Eagles game was the fourth game of the season. So I think he started a little slow before that but it didn't take too long. The people who don't like Timmons are amazingly difficult to please. If you don't think he was too good last year, then there really is no way to satisfy you. He is well above an average player, Great maybe not (that's someone's own opinion, just like elite). I'll take a season like 2012 every year. He won't make that hall of fame, if that is your standard but is well worth the No. 1, Tomlin and Colbert laid on him.

SS Laser
02-11-2013, 07:12 PM
I think Timmons has played very good for a OLB at ILB. Now I have no idea what it takes to convert. But it can not be easy. Also he has played next to 2 guys on the downside of there career. Both have played very well but it has to effect Timmons some how. Some of the impact I am sure has been good to learn the position from Farrior and Foote. Put a good young player next and infront of him then see if he can be as good as some fans want him to be. I think he is already a very good ILB.:tt1

BATMAN
02-12-2013, 12:36 AM
Farrior was great so was James Harrison. Woodley had a couple of great seasons and now is less than Timmons when it comes to production. Jason Gildon I thought stunk despite his sack record. Sorry that I may have offended some with saying Timmons isn't worth his draft selection or paycheck, it's just how I view him. I wonder if I'm correct with my opinions of the others that I have mentioned ?
We could change the subject and turn this all upon Ziggy Hood. He 's the biggest disappointment in a very long time.

grotonsteel
02-12-2013, 12:47 AM
Timmons is the best LB Steelers have right now. He is good in coverage and he can rush the passer. Woodley is fat and i hope Steelers don't restructure Woodley this season. Lets see if he comes to play this season. If not cut him.

SS Laser
02-12-2013, 01:50 AM
As far as Ziggy or Timmons what do you guys expect? Give me a players name? Not an old Steeler. Someone playing today to compare for both players.

BURGH86STEEL
02-12-2013, 08:09 AM
As far as Ziggy or Timmons what do you guys expect? Give me a players name? Not an old Steeler. Someone playing today to compare for both players.
It seems the problem is people have set the bar unrealistically high for Timmons. They expect Timmons to run through Olinemen, have 10 sacks, 5 INT's, and make every play imaginable. Timmons does it "all" well. He does things that won't show up on stat sheets. The ability to do it "all" probably hurts him in the minds of some fans. As a result, he gets labeled a jack of all trades but a master of none. From a defensive stand point, I believe the coaches are very happy with the flexibility that Timmons offers. Some people are never going to give Timmons any respect.

Maybe if Timmons had a big mouth and was more flashy on and off the field he would get more credit for his play?

fezziwig
02-12-2013, 04:59 PM
Not for me, I never cared for Joey Porter and his mouth.. I thought he was over hyped as well. Maybe not over hyped but for all the talking he did, I thougt he should have been more of a phenomenon because he sure thought he was. Joey did a lot of barking in his day and I don't care for anyone that beats their chest. . I was thrilled that he was a Steeler in the Steelers/Colts playoff.

phillyesq
02-12-2013, 07:25 PM
The Eagles game was the fourth game of the season. So I think he started a little slow before that but it didn't take too long. The people who don't like Timmons are amazingly difficult to please. If you don't think he was too good last year, then there really is no way to satisfy you. He is well above an average player, Great maybe not (that's someone's own opinion, just like elite). I'll take a season like 2012 every year. He won't make that hall of fame, if that is your standard but is well worth the No. 1, Tomlin and Colbert laid on him.

Here are his numbers from the first three games:

11 solo tackles; 1 assist; 1 pass defensed. No sacks.
Rounding up, that projects to 59 solo tackles, 5+ assists, and 5 passes defensed. Those are awful numbers for an ILB.

Oh, and the Steelers went 1-2 in those games.

Timmons had a very good conclusion to the season but he did not start producing until after James Harrison returned.

Timmons is a good complimentary player but he is not somebody who can be the centerpiece of the defense.

BigRob
02-12-2013, 07:35 PM
Here are his numbers from the first three games:

11 solo tackles; 1 assist; 1 pass defensed. No sacks.
Rounding up, that projects to 59 solo tackles, 5+ assists, and 5 passes defensed. Those are awful numbers for an ILB.

Oh, and the Steelers went 1-2 in those games.

Timmons had a very good conclusion to the season but he did not start producing until after James Harrison returned.

Timmons is a good complimentary player but he is not somebody who can be the centerpiece of the defense.

13 games is a "conclusion to the season"? I would call the biggest part of the season. Anyone can isolate a player during the season who is having a sub par stretch.

How about Aldon Smith? Take a look at this last 3 or 4 games. Pretty sub par production. Oh he had a 19 sack season.

phillyesq
02-13-2013, 12:12 AM
13 games is a "conclusion to the season"? I would call the biggest part of the season. Anyone can isolate a player during the season who is having a sub par stretch.

How about Aldon Smith? Take a look at this last 3 or 4 games. Pretty sub par production. Oh he had a 19 sack season.

Lawrence Timmons is nowhere near Aldon Smith.

His bad stretch just happened to coincide with the playmakers on the defense being out. An elite player who can lead a unit steps up to fill the vacuum; Timmons disappeared. He's a very good complimentary player, but not a centerpiece.

SS Laser
02-13-2013, 02:54 AM
Lawrence Timmons is nowhere near Aldon Smith.

His bad stretch just happened to coincide with the playmakers on the defense being out. An elite player who can lead a unit steps up to fill the vacuum; Timmons disappeared. He's a very good complimentary player, but not a centerpiece.

Good thing it is a team game.:p Timmons may not be at the game changing level of a JH or TP. But he can get better and be a game changer I think. His health still concerns me. But his play on the field is fine. Just need a few more splash plays.

Slapstick
02-13-2013, 07:18 AM
Lawrence Timmons is nowhere near Aldon Smith.

His bad stretch just happened to coincide with the playmakers on the defense being out. An elite player who can lead a unit steps up to fill the vacuum; Timmons disappeared. He's a very good complimentary player, but not a centerpiece.

I think that Aldon Smith's 19 sack season just happened to coincide with him being on the field at the same time as Patrick Willis, Navorro Bowman and Justin Smith...

phillyesq
02-13-2013, 08:17 AM
I think that Aldon Smith's 19 sack season just happened to coincide with him being on the field at the same time as Patrick Willis, Navorro Bowman and Justin Smith...

Would you trade Timmons for Smith (even ignoring Timmons' contract)? I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

Oviedo
02-13-2013, 08:38 AM
Lawrence Timmons is nowhere near Aldon Smith.

His bad stretch just happened to coincide with the playmakers on the defense being out. An elite player who can lead a unit steps up to fill the vacuum; Timmons disappeared. He's a very good complimentary player, but not a centerpiece.

So you are saying that Aldon Smith's success is just a by product of the talented players who have to be on the field with him?

Since Timmons has nowhere near the talent around him helping him that Smith has why do you hold Timmons to a different standard?

Slapstick
02-13-2013, 09:04 AM
Would you trade Timmons for Smith (even ignoring Timmons' contract)? I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

Meh. Smith disappeared when all of those other guys were on the field with him...

I'd have to think about it...the grass isn't always greener...

BigRob
02-13-2013, 01:52 PM
Would you trade Timmons for Smith (even ignoring Timmons' contract)? I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

Well yeah, pass rushers are more valuable than MLB'ers.

That wasn't the point. The point was anyone can take a slice of a players season and it would appear they are struggling.

Timmons season as a whole was great and he was a big part of the reason for some of our wins.

Unlike Woodley, we seem to be getting the most out of our contract with him.

feltdizz
02-13-2013, 02:53 PM
99% of the people who don't like Timmons will NEVER like him because they didn't think he deserved to be a first rounder...

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
02-13-2013, 02:55 PM
Kind of funny to compare the numbers between an "underachiever" like Timmons, and the guy who most consider to be the most complete ILB in the league right now, Patrick Willis:

Tackles - Willis 120, Timmons 106
Sacks - Willis .5, Timmons 6
FF - Willis 2, Timmons 2
INTs - Willis 2, Timmons 3

Now, we can argue both sides all night long as to what these numbers mean and the impact of their teammates.......Willis has fewer sacks because he doesn't get asked to blitz as much becuse they already have a pass rush. Timmons has to do more because he is lined up beside Larry Foote, not Navarro Bowman etc.

Point is, you can't argue the similarities in the numbers with the lone exception being Timmons' sack total. I have watched them both and while Willis is a machine, I don't see as huge a gap between him and Timmons as some here make it out to be. And, coincidentally, these two guys were drafted 4 picks apart in the 2007 draft.

BigRob
02-13-2013, 03:28 PM
Kind of funny to compare the numbers between an "underachiever" like Timmons, and the guy who most consider to be the most complete ILB in the league right now, Patrick Willis:

Tackles - Willis 120, Timmons 106
Sacks - Willis .5, Timmons 6
FF - Willis 2, Timmons 2
INTs - Willis 2, Timmons 3

Now, we can argue both sides all night long as to what these numbers mean and the impact of their teammates.......Willis has fewer sacks because he doesn't get asked to blitz as much becuse they already have a pass rush. Timmons has to do more because he is lined up beside Larry Foote, not Navarro Bowman etc.

Point is, you can't argue the similarities in the numbers with the lone exception being Timmons' sack total. I have watched them both and while Willis is a machine, I don't see as huge a gap between him and Timmons as some here make it out to be. And, coincidentally, these two guys were drafted 4 picks apart in the 2007 draft.

I think Willis is slowing down and is not nearly as dynamic as in the past.

What's interesting is when you compare Timmons to Bowman. He has 20 less solo tackles, but wins just about every other stat battle.

We sell Timmons short. The guy is simply a freakin beast.

Oviedo
02-13-2013, 03:55 PM
Kind of funny to compare the numbers between an "underachiever" like Timmons, and the guy who most consider to be the most complete ILB in the league right now, Patrick Willis:

Tackles - Willis 120, Timmons 106
Sacks - Willis .5, Timmons 6
FF - Willis 2, Timmons 2
INTs - Willis 2, Timmons 3

Now, we can argue both sides all night long as to what these numbers mean and the impact of their teammates.......Willis has fewer sacks because he doesn't get asked to blitz as much becuse they already have a pass rush. Timmons has to do more because he is lined up beside Larry Foote, not Navarro Bowman etc.

Point is, you can't argue the similarities in the numbers with the lone exception being Timmons' sack total. I have watched them both and while Willis is a machine, I don't see as huge a gap between him and Timmons as some here make it out to be. And, coincidentally, these two guys were drafted 4 picks apart in the 2007 draft.


USA Today today had Timmons on the "All Joe Team" as one of the most underrated players in the NFL. For the first time in a decade he was the one defensive player to lead the team in Tackles (134), Sacks (6) and INTs (3). But of course he is lacking.

steelsnis
02-13-2013, 05:12 PM
I want posluzney!!!

feltdizz
02-13-2013, 05:23 PM
Willis was getting abused in coverage too this postseason. Gonzalez (I know, he abuses most MLB's) had a field day against Willis and it seemed like any TE he covered got the best of him.

Stat comparison between the 2 is pretty close. If this was Heath Miller or one of our other fan favorites the board would be livid with the NFL for ignoring his stats.

It's personal with most fans and they are indeed selling Timmon's short. When you think about all the positions he has learned the last few years to cover for injured players it really puts him in a special place. I'm just glad the FO doesn't think like we do half the time.

phillyesq
02-13-2013, 07:14 PM
So you are saying that Aldon Smith's success is just a by product of the talented players who have to be on the field with him?

Since Timmons has nowhere near the talent around him helping him that Smith has why do you hold Timmons to a different standard?

I should have been more clear. When I said that "His bad stretch just happened to coincide with the playmakers on the defense being out" I was referring to Timmons, not Smith. It was my understanding that Aldon Smith had a shoulder injury of some sort, but I don't follow them closely enough.

As for Timmons, the bottom line is that he had an opportunity with Harrison and Polamalu out to step up and fill the void. He didn't take advantage of the opportunity.

BigRob
02-13-2013, 07:17 PM
I should have been more clear. When I said that "His bad stretch just happened to coincide with the playmakers on the defense being out" I was referring to Timmons, not Smith. It was my understanding that Aldon Smith had a shoulder injury of some sort, but I don't follow them closely enough.

As for Timmons, the bottom line is that he had an opportunity with Harrison and Polamalu out to step up and fill the void. He didn't take advantage of the opportunity.

Name one player in the NFL that excels on defense without the other 10 guys doing their jobs and playing sound. How did his role differ in these games when the Steelers were missing key pieces that Lebeau likes to utilize?

Aldon Smith started struggling when Smith went down with his injury. How come he gets a pass? He wasn't injured and he didn't "fill the void."

Timmons was the best player on our defense this year period along with Clark.

Timmons will always be a player fans either love or hate depending on how they felt on draft day about the pick.

Ghost
02-14-2013, 09:21 AM
Timmons is quiet, professional, does whatever the team asks (playing whatever position they need him in that day), never complains, is one of the top pure athletes on the D, and puts up good stats that are being recognized nationally by multiple sources. I'm glad he's a Steeler. He represents himself, the city, and the team well and is a much better player than given credit for because people believe him to be Tomlin's "pet pick".

feltdizz
02-14-2013, 10:02 AM
I should have been more clear. When I said that "His bad stretch just happened to coincide with the playmakers on the defense being out" I was referring to Timmons, not Smith. It was my understanding that Aldon Smith had a shoulder injury of some sort, but I don't follow them closely enough.

As for Timmons, the bottom line is that he had an opportunity with Harrison and Polamalu out to step up and fill the void. He didn't take advantage of the opportunity.

step up to fill the void when 2 stars where out? What kind of opportunity does a player have when 2 stars are out? He is supposed to put up numbers for all 3? Do their job and his?

C'mon.. that makes no sense at all and smells like hate that has aged like a fine wine. How many games did we get blown out by 20 when Harrison and Troy were out?

phillyesq
02-14-2013, 01:04 PM
Aldon Smith started struggling when Smith went down with his injury. How come he gets a pass? He wasn't injured and he didn't "fill the void."


Aldon Smith did have a shoulder issue.

phillyesq
02-14-2013, 01:09 PM
step up to fill the void when 2 stars where out? What kind of opportunity does a player have when 2 stars are out? He is supposed to put up numbers for all 3? Do their job and his?

C'mon.. that makes no sense at all and smells like hate that has aged like a fine wine. How many games did we get blown out by 20 when Harrison and Troy were out?

He is supposed to be a star - he's certainly paid like one. And he comes up with 12 tackles and 1 pass defensed in 3 games? That is not a star caliber performance in the least. He doesn't need to do their jobs and his. But with 2 big playmakers out, the plays need to be made by somebody, don't they? And shouldn't a star player step into that void and make the plays?

If he needs James Harrison on the field to perform, then he isn't a star. He is a good complimentary player.

BigRob
02-14-2013, 01:23 PM
Aldon Smith did have a shoulder issue.

Please, this is weak, who doesn't deal with some type of injury issue during a long season? His shoulder didn't keep him from producing, not having Justin Smith next to him was his biggest detriment.

BigRob
02-14-2013, 01:26 PM
He is supposed to be a star - he's certainly paid like one. And he comes up with 12 tackles and 1 pass defensed in 3 games? That is not a star caliber performance in the least. He doesn't need to do their jobs and his. But with 2 big playmakers out, the plays need to be made by somebody, don't they? And shouldn't a star player step into that void and make the plays?

If he needs James Harrison on the field to perform, then he isn't a star. He is a good complimentary player.

You can take a slice of the season to try and prove your point. It's just false and poor statistical reasoning. Too many uncontrolled variables. It is pure speculation and confirmation bias.

Timmons was the best and most consistent defender all season along with Clark.

Haters gonna hate no matter what he does.

He impacted plenty of games this year and some will never get over him being selected 15th. Without Timmons, this defense would have completely collapsed this year.

He is an integral part on that side of the ball.

feltdizz
02-14-2013, 01:48 PM
He is supposed to be a star - he's certainly paid like one. And he comes up with 12 tackles and 1 pass defensed in 3 games? That is not a star caliber performance in the least. He doesn't need to do their jobs and his. But with 2 big playmakers out, the plays need to be made by somebody, don't they? And shouldn't a star player step into that void and make the plays?

If he needs James Harrison on the field to perform, then he isn't a star. He is a good complimentary player.

Its much easier to isolate or avoid "the star" when 2 other stars are out.

phillyesq
02-14-2013, 02:25 PM
Its much easier to isolate or avoid "the star" when 2 other stars are out.

And truly elite players overcome that.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-14-2013, 02:28 PM
oakland sure didn't avoid timmons when they needed a crucial 3rd down to ice that win against us.

they went right at him.

phillyesq
02-14-2013, 02:28 PM
You can take a slice of the season to try and prove your point. It's just false and poor statistical reasoning. Too many uncontrolled variables. It is pure speculation and confirmation bias.

Timmons was the best and most consistent defender all season along with Clark.

Haters gonna hate no matter what he does.

He impacted plenty of games this year and some will never get over him being selected 15th. Without Timmons, this defense would have completely collapsed this year.

He is an integral part on that side of the ball.

If you want to make the argument that it is too small of a sample size, that's fine and I get that.

But those three games were the best opportunity that we had to see what the D would look like with Timmons as the focal point. And during those games, he produced very little.

Do you really want to argue that Timmons played like a $10 million ILB to start the season?

BigRob
02-14-2013, 03:20 PM
Do you really want to argue that Timmons played like a $10 million ILB to start the season?

The only player to make plays on our defense this year and you want to argue with his contract? And you want to base it on a three game stretch at the beginning of the season? And not his overall body of work, which is growing.

His impact and play are comparable to the best MLB'ers in the game. His contract is also comparable to the best in the game.

He played as well as Navarro Bowman this year and Bowman received more guaranteed money on his deal. In case you didn't notice, Bowman had a pretty terrible Super Bowl. I'll take some sub par play at the beginning of the season rather than at the end of the season.

Your stuck on the first three games of the season because it is the only thread of an argument you can hang your hat on.

Slapstick
02-14-2013, 03:43 PM
If you want to make the argument that it is too small of a sample size, that's fine and I get that.

But those three games were the best opportunity that we had to see what the D would look like with Timmons as the focal point.

The first game last year where we saw what the D would look like with Timmons as the focal point was the Philadelphia game...

feltdizz
02-14-2013, 03:44 PM
And truly elite players overcome that.

who said he was truly elite? LOL... why stop at truly... how about super duper truly elite players overcome death to stop 3rd and 8's.

feltdizz
02-14-2013, 03:45 PM
The only player to make plays on our defense this year and you want to argue with his contract? And you want to base it on a three game stretch at the beginning of the season? And not his overall body of work, which is growing.

His impact and play are comparable to the best MLB'ers in the game. His contract is also comparable to the best in the game.

He played as well as Navarro Bowman this year and Bowman received more guaranteed money on his deal. In case you didn't notice, Bowman had a pretty terrible Super Bowl. I'll take some sub par play at the beginning of the season rather than at the end of the season.

Your stuck on the first three games of the season because it is the only thread of an argument you can hang your hat on.

If we took away FWP's long runs...

phillyesq
02-14-2013, 05:44 PM
The first game last year where we saw what the D would look like with Timmons as the focal point was the Philadelphia game...

Also the first game that James Harrison was in the lineup...

phillyesq
02-14-2013, 05:46 PM
The only player to make plays on our defense this year and you want to argue with his contract? And you want to base it on a three game stretch at the beginning of the season? And not his overall body of work, which is growing.

His impact and play are comparable to the best MLB'ers in the game. His contract is also comparable to the best in the game.

He played as well as Navarro Bowman this year and Bowman received more guaranteed money on his deal. In case you didn't notice, Bowman had a pretty terrible Super Bowl. I'll take some sub par play at the beginning of the season rather than at the end of the season.

Your stuck on the first three games of the season because it is the only thread of an argument you can hang your hat on.

His overall body of work? He was a good complimentary player this year when James Harrison was in the lineup. Last year, his play left a lot to be desired. He spent some time at OLB, but was mostly asked to rush the passer and produced very little.

steelsnis
02-17-2013, 11:22 AM
His overall body of work? He was a good complimentary player this year when James Harrison was in the lineup. Last year, his play left a lot to be desired. He spent some time at OLB, but was mostly asked to rush the passer and produced very little.

This is pretty ridiculous. If you can't see that Timmons was the best defensive player on the team this past season and far and away the Steelers best linebacker, then you have blinders on.

Lets ask Bouchette. Here he is talking about the underwhelming performances of some Steelers lb's is season:

"First, Lawrence Timmons must be excused from that discussion. Timmons had the best season of his six-year career, was the unofficial MVP of the defense and should have made his first Pro Bowl.
Playing the mack inside linebacker with more roaming duties, Timmons was dominant. He led the Steelers with 134 tackles, 20 more than buck inside linebacker Larry Foote, who was second (according to the coaches count). Timmons tied for the team lead with six sacks, led with three interceptions, had 19 quarterback pressures, forced two fumbles and recovered one.


Timmons was everything the Steelers asked him to be when they drafted him No. 1 in 2007. He's only 26 and he's under contract for the next four years."




Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/steelers-sunday-spotlight-the-linebackers-a-legacy-in-jeopardy-675711/#ixzz2LAbujDZj

feltdizz
02-17-2013, 11:48 AM
b, bu, but... Timmons didnt show up when I wanted him to and that proves he is average.

Oviedo
02-17-2013, 12:39 PM
This is pretty ridiculous. If you can't see that Timmons was the best defensive player on the team this past season and far and away the Steelers best linebacker, then you have blinders on.

Lets ask Bouchette. Here he is talking about the underwhelming performances of some Steelers lb's is season:

"First, Lawrence Timmons must be excused from that discussion. Timmons had the best season of his six-year career, was the unofficial MVP of the defense and should have made his first Pro Bowl.
Playing the mack inside linebacker with more roaming duties, Timmons was dominant. He led the Steelers with 134 tackles, 20 more than buck inside linebacker Larry Foote, who was second (according to the coaches count). Timmons tied for the team lead with six sacks, led with three interceptions, had 19 quarterback pressures, forced two fumbles and recovered one.


Timmons was everything the Steelers asked him to be when they drafted him No. 1 in 2007. He's only 26 and he's under contract for the next four years."




Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/steelers-sunday-spotlight-the-linebackers-a-legacy-in-jeopardy-675711/#ixzz2LAbujDZj

$$$$$ Some fans can have their sliding scale for Timmons that just moves the bar everytime he does well so he never meets their "standard" but he is by far the best player on our defense and has been Top 3 for about three years now.

Instead of trying to downplay Timmons' success because they turned on him early with unrealistic expectations and put too much of their nonsense on blogs, fans should be focusing on how Harrison, Woordley and to a lesser extent Troy P. have let down this team the past two years. Timmons is now the star of the here and now and the future and those three players are living on past glories.