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BigRob
01-28-2013, 03:39 PM
25. Pittsburgh Steelers (25)PB Ė 24th, RB Ė 30th, PEN Ė 18th


Stud: The best player on this line is Maurkice Pouncey (+5.4), though that speaks volumes about this line and less about him. He does his job, but unlike a lot of linemen in this league he doesnít pop out on tape as someone who makes a massive difference.


Dud: Itís nice to have a player who can play a number of positions, but the Steelers faithful must be hoping they donít see an awful lot more of Doug Legursky (-10.5).


Summary: Try as they might, the Steelers canít field a line that can pass protect and open up lanes. Thatís despite a significant recent investment of early-round draft picks. That said, this line was never about 2012, and hopefully a healthy unit next year will justify the hope.

I know some don't like PFF, but they are usually pretty spot on. A lot of the NFL teams use their analytics.

I think they pretty much have it right, this line has some potential in the future, but it was still bad this year due to injuries, etc..

Eddie Spaghetti
01-28-2013, 03:51 PM
but legursky is such a beast in the weight room!!!

Oviedo
01-28-2013, 03:52 PM
25th but let's run out and draft defensive players. This is why the offense is inconsistent and ineffective and until this is really fixed it will stay that way.

Eddie Spaghetti
01-28-2013, 03:54 PM
25th but let's run out and draft defensive players. This is why the offense is inconsistent and ineffective and until this is really fixed it will stay that way.

we have spent 4 premium picks on the OL in 3 years.

SS Laser
01-28-2013, 04:09 PM
I wonder if there in the 1st rd a LT is needed to replace Starks. More Gilbert to OG. Leave Adams at RT. Legs seems fine at back up center. Beachum can back up LT/RT maybe guard also. Did the Steelers take Gilbert as a T or G?

Jooser
01-28-2013, 04:14 PM
we have spent 4 premium picks on the OL in 3 years.


EXACTLY! Time to put up!

feltdizz
01-28-2013, 04:52 PM
we have spent 4 premium picks on the OL in 3 years.

exactly... we have a bunch of young guys on the OL, coaching and conditioning are the only problems IMO.

Keyplay1
01-28-2013, 05:03 PM
I know some don't like PFF, but they are usually pretty spot on. A lot of the NFL teams use their analytics.

I think they pretty much have it right, this line has some potential in the future, but it was still bad this year due to injuries, etc..\

A few years ago they ranked Ike Taylor #70. I jiggled the numbers a bit and think I proved Ike was a more valuable player than N. Asomugha?? How the Eagles doing lately??

They do a good job in viewing each play but they are weak in interpreting what they see. Not saying they missed the mark with the OL.

I rank them #2 in research and #5 in analysis. Uhh! There are only a few sites that do that advanced research type thing.

Oviedo
01-28-2013, 05:06 PM
we have spent 4 premium picks on the OL in 3 years.

But has it worked? Good intentions don't block the pass rushers or open holes in the defensive line. Until we see any of those players drafted excel as far as I'm concerned the problem isn't fixed. You have to look at this on how it is actually working not what past actions you took to fix it.

BigRob
01-28-2013, 05:14 PM
\

A few years ago they ranked Ike Taylor #70. I jiggled the numbers a bit and think I proved Ike was a more valuable player than N. Asomugha?? How the Eagles doing lately??

They do a good job in viewing each play but they are weak in interpreting what they see. Not saying they missed the mark with the OL.

I rank them #2 in research and #5 in analysis. Uhh! There are only a few sites that do that advanced research type thing.

Yeah what year was that? Ike had sub par years in 2006 and 2009. They ranked him pretty highly this year along with Keenan Lewis. This was accurate as both has great years.

What's your point? They do a great job charting plays and players. This is invaluable in many regards.

phillyesq
01-28-2013, 05:52 PM
But has it worked? Good intentions don't block the pass rushers or open holes in the defensive line. Until we see any of those players drafted excel as far as I'm concerned the problem isn't fixed. You have to look at this on how it is actually working not what past actions you took to fix it.

Gilbert and Adams only combined for something like 10 games this year. I would like to see Starks retained so that there is depth and competition at OT, but I supsect that the two second round OTs will open the season as starters. DeCastro also missed most of the year and was just getting his feet wet; I think we all anticipate improvement from him next year. Whether Foster, Colon or whoever else, you can get by with an adequate guard if the rest of the o-line is capable.

I'd most certainly rather not see Beachum or Legursky starting.

Eddie Spaghetti
01-28-2013, 06:19 PM
Gilbert and Adams only combined for something like 10 games this year. I would like to see Starks retained so that there is depth and competition at OT, but I supsect that the two second round OTs will open the season as starters. DeCastro also missed most of the year and was just getting his feet wet; I think we all anticipate improvement from him next year. Whether Foster, Colon or whoever else, you can get by with an adequate guard if the rest of the o-line is capable.

I'd most certainly rather not see Beachum or Legursky starting.

my point exactly. We can't keep throwing 1st round picks at one section of your football team.

these guys have to step up and produce.

Keyplay1
01-28-2013, 08:32 PM
Yeah what year was that? Ike had sub par years in 2006 and 2009. They ranked him pretty highly this year along with Keenan Lewis. This was accurate as both has great years.

What's your point? They do a great job charting plays and players. This is invaluable in many regards.

That would probably be the year he left Oakland.[2010] He was a big item on the FA market that year.

My point is that a number of stats go into the final ranking of a player. How they are weighted is arguable. I thought Ike was penalized for being targeted a bushel of times. Meanwhile NA was only thrown at 28 times that year and 75% of those passes were completed. It did not seem to concern them they seemed interested in the few times he was targeted. Also Ike had a lower YAC than NA that year. This to me indicated Ike just might be a better tackler. It did not phase them one bit etc. etc. Unfortunately, I think they are now a pay site so I don't go there anymore and cannot check the numbers.

I don't usually dig deep into stats much, but that year I got PO'd because thread after thread was going on and of course all wanted TS to get NA. Fine he is a good player no doubt but when someone offered that years #1, the following years #2 etc and then threw Ike in for good measure that was the last straw.


My point is and maybe you will agree , some stats can be more revealing than others. For example. Team A rushes 500 times for 1800 yards. Team B rushes 300 times for 1500 yards. Which team has done a better job?

They do a great job charting plays and players. This is invaluable in many regards. Absolutely. But then it up to the evaluator.

pfelix73
01-28-2013, 09:25 PM
I wonder if there in the 1st rd a LT is needed to replace Starks. More Gilbert to OG. Leave Adams at RT. Legs seems fine at back up center. Beachum can back up LT/RT maybe guard also. Did the Steelers take Gilbert as a T or G?

They originally drafted him to be the heir apparent to Starks. LT.

BigRob
01-28-2013, 09:32 PM
That would probably be the year he left Oakland.[2010] He was a big item on the FA market that year.

My point is that a number of stats go into the final ranking of a player. How they are weighted is arguable. I thought Ike was penalized for being targeted a bushel of times. Meanwhile NA was only thrown at 28 times that year and 75% of those passes were completed. It did not seem to concern them they seemed interested in the few times he was targeted. Also Ike had a lower YAC than NA that year. This to me indicated Ike just might be a better tackler. It did not phase them one bit etc. etc. Unfortunately, I think they are now a pay site so I don't go there anymore and cannot check the numbers.

I don't usually dig deep into stats much, but that year I got PO'd because thread after thread was going on and of course all wanted TS to get NA. Fine he is a good player no doubt but when someone offered that years #1, the following years #2 etc and then threw Ike in for good measure that was the last straw.


My point is and maybe you will agree , some stats can be more revealing than others. For example. Team A rushes 500 times for 1800 yards. Team B rushes 300 times for 1500 yards. Which team has done a better job?

They do a great job charting plays and players. This is invaluable in many regards. Absolutely. But then it up to the evaluator.

I agree its harder to apply it to a position like corner, but I think it is better applied to o-line and d-line.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-28-2013, 09:36 PM
The 'premium pick' statement is bogus. Scott Sheilds, Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, Limas Sweed....all 'premium picks'. If simply picking a player at a certain draft position made them capable of being good we would be all set. Willie Reid would be taking returns to the house and we never would of signed Clark cause Anthony Smith would be lighting people up.

We have drafted poorly and now need to rectify and solidify our mistakes.

Eddie Spaghetti
01-28-2013, 09:43 PM
its not bogus at all, actually.

the guys you list certainly didnt turn out to be premium "players", i grant you that, but they were all premium "picks" (1-2) you expect a greater return from your early draft picks. i dont see how anyone can argue that.

lets give the young guys we have some time to develop. and i agree that the QB can help them out a little as well by playing smart football.

SS Laser
01-28-2013, 09:46 PM
They originally drafted him to be the heir apparent to Starks. LT.

I was joking about the T or G question because we keep hearing the Steelers like position flexibility. And Gilbert has played G in college. Maybe he is better at G then T like Colon. But did we see enough of Colon at G to say he was better then at RT?

Mister Pittsburgh
01-28-2013, 10:01 PM
its not bogus at all, actually.

the guys you list certainly didnt turn out to be premium "players", i grant you that, but they were all premium "picks" (1-2) you expect a greater return from your early draft picks. i dont see how anyone can argue that.

lets give the young guys we have some time to develop. and i agree that the QB can help them out a little as well by playing smart football.

Actually, it absolutely is bogus. Draft position pretty much only guarantees the player gets more money initially. If I spend 5k on a Huffy at the flea market does that mean I should race it when I could upgrade at the next flea market?

We have one OT that got so blown up that he ruined the seasons of multiple other OL, another we were hoping could put the bong down and ended up missing the last portion of the season, another that was a 7th round pick but may start at LG.....but we shouldn't consider a premium pick on the OL? Ludacris.

BradshawsHairdresser
01-28-2013, 10:02 PM
OL is definitely a need...but I believe that, according to PFF, we have an even bigger need...I believe they have our pass rush rated dead LAST in the NFL.

Eddie Spaghetti
01-28-2013, 11:26 PM
I don't understand what used bicycles have to do with anything.

1st and 2nd round picks are premium picks and are obviously more valuable than a 6th or a 7th rounder. I find it ludicrous that anyone would argue that.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-29-2013, 12:21 AM
I don't understand what used bicycles have to do with anything.

1st and 2nd round picks are premium picks and are obviously more valuable than a 6th or a 7th rounder. I find it ludicrous that anyone would argue that.

the issue isn't the pick, but the players taken.

supersteeler
01-29-2013, 12:48 AM
Did the rank consider we lost Colon, Decastro, Adams, Gilbert to injuries? An O-line needs continuity replacing players every week is tough on any team but we had our share of bad luck.
If anyone remembers as bad as this O-line is made out to be Ben was having his best year ever before his injury, the Steelers were leading in third down percentages and TOP, then the injuries mounted. This line was playing decent before the injuries, and Ben wasn't on the ground as much as the past.

I would like to see how other teams O-line would rank with third stringers.

papillon
01-29-2013, 02:08 PM
But has it worked? Good intentions don't block the pass rushers or open holes in the defensive line. Until we see any of those players drafted excel as far as I'm concerned the problem isn't fixed. You have to look at this on how it is actually working not what past actions you took to fix it.

We don't know if it worked yet, Poncey, Adams, Gilbert and DeCastro haven't been on the field together. Juat because it may not look good now the investment has been made, other needs are going to arise from the defensive purge that is going to take place and there is almost nothing behind the defensive players being released.

Harrison (probably) - Worilds? Carter? (Neither has moved to the forefront)
Hampton - McClendon (best option maybe, but didn't really sieze the opportunity) Hood (a little light in the britches for NT
Clark (it appears will be released) - Allen? Golden? (Golden rarely played and Allen has been around)
Kiesel (maybe) - Heyward, Hood? Neither has exactly elevated their play to their draft position
Foote (probably) - Spence? Who knows after the injury, hasn't taken a meaningful snap.
Taylor - This is the one position that seems to be in good hands provided they can keep Lewis. If Taylor and his contract are released and lewis chases bigger money than the Steelers are willing to pay, then cornerback becomes an issue as well.

The carnage isn't going to be pretty on the defensive side of the ball. The offense has had the premium line picks and skill position picks over the past 4 years (Mendenhall and Wallace) and it appears that they will be walking out Pittsburgh as well. This isn't going to be pretty.

Hopefully, with all the purging that the Steelers will at least be able to sign one or two mid-level FAs to fill some holes.

Pappy

Oviedo
01-29-2013, 02:58 PM
The carnage isn't going to be pretty on the defensive side of the ball. The offense has had the premium line picks and skill position picks over the past 4 years (Mendenhall and Wallace) and it appears that they will be walking out Pittsburgh as well. This isn't going to be pretty.

Hopefully, with all the purging that the Steelers will at least be able to sign one or two mid-level FAs to fill some holes.

Pappy

But you have a "genius" in charge on the defensive side of the ball. Let's see how his "genius" works when he isn't playing with a stacked deck of talent and financial investment.

Slapstick
01-29-2013, 04:03 PM
But you have a "genius" in charge on the defensive side of the ball. Let's see how his "genius" works when he isn't playing with a stacked deck of talent and financial investment.

So, what did LeBeau ever do to you?

I mean, you may disagree with his defensive philosophy...that is your right...

But, the immature sniping on this and other threads is really beneath you...

Oviedo
01-29-2013, 04:15 PM
So, what did LeBeau ever do to you?

I mean, you may disagree with his defensive philosophy...that is your right...

But, the immature sniping on this and other threads is really beneath you...

As opposed to "mature sniping" that we typically see or have seen on this board against Tomlin, Haley, Arians, etc. I admitedly at times make extreme statements to solicit the guaranteed rush to defend anything about LeBeau but he isn't beyond criticism.

Let's face it, he has been given the lipon's share of the financial investment in player retention the past 5 to 6 years and he has been fortunate to have had the stars come together with exceptional talent. As that talent has left elements of his strategies have been exposed over the course of several seasons now. Other can manufacture blame on other but he is the guy responsible for a defense that cannot create turnovers, cannot sack the QB and cannot intercept passes---all things our defenses use to be able to do.

Eddie Spaghetti
01-29-2013, 04:28 PM
so an OL thread has degenerated in a lebeau bashing session from ovi.

shocker.

Slapstick
01-29-2013, 04:33 PM
As opposed to "mature sniping" that we typically see or have seen on this board against Tomlin, Haley, Arians, etc. I admitedly at times make extreme statements to solicit the guaranteed rush to defend anything about LeBeau but he isn't beyond criticism.

Let's face it, he has been given the lipon's share of the financial investment in player retention the past 5 to 6 years and he has been fortunate to have had the stars come together with exceptional talent. As that talent has left elements of his strategies have been exposed over the course of several seasons now. Other can manufacture blame on other but he is the guy responsible for a defense that cannot create turnovers, cannot sack the QB and cannot intercept passes---all things our defenses use to be able to do.

Well, I just have higher expectations for you than others, I guess...;)


A defensive coordinator can't "plan" to create turnovers...having that as a defensive philisophy is a recipe for disaster...what if the other team doesn't cooperate and turn the ball over?

I can't fault LeBeau when the star players that you call out aren't on the field and healthy enough to contribute...how is that LeBeau's fault, anyway?

LeBeau's scheme is sound. The fact that the Steelers finished so well satistically and on scoring defense bears that out...

The fact that the "splash plays", like sacks and turnovers, were lacking isn't a scheme thing...it's an unhealthy talent thing...

Schemes help to prevent yards and points...players have to make the splash plays...

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-30-2013, 11:10 AM
So an 8-8 team that just barely missed the playoffs has the 25th ranked OL in the league. This same OL should receive a significant boost next season. They have an incoming guard who is basically coming off of a redshirt year. Two young tackles who were suffering injuries but should come back healthy and ready to compete next year.

Now, I may have been the biggest (or at least one of the biggest) Starks supporters over the years, but I don't see him returning. That is a big minus IMO. I've never been much of a Colon fan so I see his loss as a wash - good run blocker but poor in pass pro and a penalty machine at any position.

When you consider the extra year of rest and experience for Pouncey, Adams, Gilbert, and Decastro, we should see an improvement. I can see an OL being the difference between 8-8 and playoff contender. Remember that the AFC representative almost lost to an injured Leftwich and did lose to a 100 year old Batch this year, so we might not be as far away as we think.

Sugar
01-30-2013, 11:52 AM
So an 8-8 team that just barely missed the playoffs has the 25th ranked OL in the league. This same OL should receive a significant boost next season. They have an incoming guard who is basically coming off of a redshirt year. Two young tackles who were suffering injuries but should come back healthy and ready to compete next year.

Now, I may have been the biggest (or at least one of the biggest) Starks supporters over the years, but I don't see him returning. That is a big minus IMO. I've never been much of a Colon fan so I see his loss as a wash - good run blocker but poor in pass pro and a penalty machine at any position.

When you consider the extra year of rest and experience for Pouncey, Adams, Gilbert, and Decastro, we should see an improvement. I can see an OL being the difference between 8-8 and playoff contender. Remember that the AFC representative almost lost to an injured Leftwich and did lose to a 100 year old Batch this year, so we might not be as far away as we think.

This is so very true. The Steelers aren't that far from the promised land. Even in the best years, a lot has to go right in order to go deep into the post-season. The added experience for this OL group will only help make the team that much better.

pfelix73
01-30-2013, 12:02 PM
I am still wondering what the Steelers really gain (how much cap space saved) by cutting Colon. Personally, I'd like to see them retain at least one of those OL between Starks, Foster, and Colon, even if it's just for depth on the roster. I would doubt they bring back Starks (although I wish they would) and Foster may sign elsewhere. If they are wanting to plug in Beachum at LG as they already have announced, then maybe it would be wise to keep Colon for 1 more year. The 2 can compete in camp at LG. Beachum would need some pushing from someone in camp....

Someone on another website mentioned that Andy Levitre from the Bills is a FA and there was some interest there. Can't back it up with a link or anything, but I thought that was interesting news when I read it... Something to ponder, maybe..

NorthCoast
01-30-2013, 08:21 PM
The 'premium pick' statement is bogus. Scott Sheilds, Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, Limas Sweed....all 'premium picks'. If simply picking a player at a certain draft position made them capable of being good we would be all set. Willie Reid would be taking returns to the house and we never would of signed Clark cause Anthony Smith would be lighting people up.

We have drafted poorly and now need to rectify and solidify our mistakes.

agreed....(dont forget Troy Edwards... what a premium pick that was)

Eddie Spaghetti
01-30-2013, 09:48 PM
agreed....(dont forget Troy Edwards... what a premium pick that was)

i guess you guys cant see the difference in the word "pick" and the word "player". Higher draft "picks" (rounds 1-2) have always been and always will be considered more valuable and are sometimes called premium picks because of that value. The trade value chart bears this fact out. Premium "players" can come in any round with a little luck and scouting. I honestly thought this was pretty much common knowledge.

and "solidifying our mistakes" doesn't sound to good to my ears either.

supersteeler
01-30-2013, 10:27 PM
If there is concern about the O-line draft Warmack or Fisher and call it a day.

BigRob
01-31-2013, 03:17 PM
I am still wondering what the Steelers really gain (how much cap space saved) by cutting Colon. Personally, I'd like to see them retain at least one of those OL between Starks, Foster, and Colon, even if it's just for depth on the roster. I would doubt they bring back Starks (although I wish they would) and Foster may sign elsewhere. If they are wanting to plug in Beachum at LG as they already have announced, then maybe it would be wise to keep Colon for 1 more year. The 2 can compete in camp at LG. Beachum would need some pushing from someone in camp....

Someone on another website mentioned that Andy Levitre from the Bills is a FA and there was some interest there. Can't back it up with a link or anything, but I thought that was interesting news when I read it... Something to ponder, maybe..

They no longer fit the bill for what this team's o-line will look like skill wise. Colon, Foster and Starks are mashers. Haley and Bicknell like more athletic players. They no longer fit the scheme or style of players the o-line will take going forward.

Gilbert, Adams, Pouncey, Decastro, and Beachum fit the bill. These are more of the type of o-linemen you will see the Steelers take going forward.

I like Levitre by the way, but he has injury problems.

Steelerphile
02-02-2013, 05:03 PM
Well I decided to check some of Profootballfocus stats and to my surprise, the player that is reviled and hated by morons on this site, David Johnson, is actually rated pretty highly by Profootballfocus. Johnson, aka "Whiff" was rated in 2011, the 15th best TE, out of 65 rated TEs. He had an overall grade of 15. Received a grade of 9.0 in run blocking, which was in the top 5. Fan favorite "Will Johnson" received a grade of -.4 in run blocking for 2012, although he received an overall positive grade of 2.0.

So even though, a resident genius declared Gilbert did the Steelers a big favor by blowing out Johnson's knee. That was not borne out by the results of the running game, which declined in effectiveness and also the team record declined to 8-8. Just a coincidence, you say. I don't. If they can get Johnson back in the mix, I think that would also help out the run game.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-02-2013, 06:00 PM
I hope, with the heat of a thousand suns, that I never see david johnson on the steelers roster ever again.

supersteeler
02-02-2013, 06:57 PM
I hope, with the heat of a thousand suns, that I never see david johnson on the steelers roster ever again.

No worries Eddie, he's probably gone as Will Johnson got a spot on the roster and made some plays this year.

pfelix73
02-02-2013, 08:30 PM
They no longer fit the bill for what this team's o-line will look like skill wise. Colon, Foster and Starks are mashers. Haley and Bicknell like more athletic players. They no longer fit the scheme or style of players the o-line will take going forward.

Gilbert, Adams, Pouncey, Decastro, and Beachum fit the bill. These are more of the type of o-linemen you will see the Steelers take going forward.

I like Levitre by the way, but he has injury problems.


Disagree with you. Anyone can zone block. It's easy. I feel like I am writing this from 3-4 years ago. You are taught this in jr high. Every team can run zone or man. And they do on every given friday, saturday, or sunday depending on what level you are playing on.

Mister Pittsburgh
02-02-2013, 08:41 PM
i guess you guys cant see the difference in the word "pick" and the word "player". Higher draft "picks" (rounds 1-2) have always been and always will be considered more valuable and are sometimes called premium picks because of that value. The trade value chart bears this fact out. Premium "players" can come in any round with a little luck and scouting. I honestly thought this was pretty much common knowledge.

and "solidifying our mistakes" doesn't sound to good to my ears either.

Huh? This makes no sense when looking at the flow of this thread.

flippy
02-02-2013, 09:22 PM
I know some don't like PFF, but they are usually pretty spot on. A lot of the NFL teams use their analytics.

I think they pretty much have it right, this line has some potential in the future, but it was still bad this year due to injuries, etc..

Ranking them 25th is being generous.

Eddie Spaghetti
02-02-2013, 10:27 PM
Huh? This makes no sense when looking at the flow of this thread.

I was trying to explain what a premium pick is as opposed to a premium player since you seem to be having trouble telling the difference between the two. The last part is about your earlier contention that we should "solidify our mistakes" solidifying is the last thing you want to do with a mistake. You either correct one or move on.