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View Full Version : Remember NOBODY here wanted J Caldwell as our OC?



Captain Lemming
01-24-2013, 03:21 PM
Including ME.

When Tomlin considered him there was a collective NOOOO from this board

On NO topic was there greater consensus.

We all thought Peyton "made him"
Heck Peyton called his own plays

After JC was made OC, Flacco had ONE bad game, the first game.

Since then Flacco has killed it.
He has been every bit as effective as any QB in this league
Better than the rookie phenoms
Better head to head than the reputed two best to get to the SB
ZERO postseason picks, 8 TDs.

Only ONE pick PERIOD since JC was made OC

Ravens O has NEVER looked better
Flacco has NEVER been more consistent
Run game STILL flourishing
OFFENSE for the first time is why the Ravens are successful

They are where we want to be, directly because this team is a different beast due to Caldwell.
NO WAY this team wins a shootout versus Peyton like they did, Peyton STILL owns the Ravens defense.

Shows what we dumb message board types really know.

Thoughts?

BigRob
01-24-2013, 03:26 PM
Including ME.

When Tomlin considered him there was a collective NOOOO from this board

On NO topic was there greater consensus.

We all thought Peyton "made him"
Heck Peyton called his own plays

After JC was made OC, Flacco had ONE bad game, the first game.

Since then Flacco has killed it.
He has been every bit as effective as any QB in this league
Better than the rookie phenoms
Better head to head than the reputed two best to get to the SB
ZERO postseason picks, 8 TDs.

Only ONE pick PERIOD since JC was made OC

Ravens O has NEVER looked better
Flacco has NEVER been more consistent
Run game STILL flourishing
OFFENSE for the first time is why the Ravens are successful

They are where we want to be, directly because this team is a different beast due to Caldwell.
NO WAY this team wins a shootout versus Peyton like they did, Peyton STILL owns the Ravens defense.

Shows what we dumb message board types really know.

Thoughts?

Your bias come through big time. Your attributing success to one man without considering other improvements that may have lead to Flacco's success.

Mainly that they changed up their O-line at this time. Mckinnie came out of the doghouse to play left tackle. That moved Oher to right tackle and Osemele to left guard. They now go Mckinnie, Osemele, Birk, Yanda, Oher. They have been playing as an elite line since this change.

You don't think having all day to throw is helping Flacco?

SteelCrazy
01-24-2013, 03:46 PM
I wanted him big time. No one would listen. Dumb message board types.

Captain Lemming
01-24-2013, 04:10 PM
I wanted him big time. No one would listen. Dumb message board types.

Clearly you are "biased" according to Rob :rolleyes:

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-24-2013, 04:25 PM
Your bias come through big time. Your attributing success to one man without considering other improvements that may have lead to Flacco's success.

Mainly that they changed up their O-line at this time. Mckinnie came out of the doghouse to play left tackle. That moved Oher to right tackle and Osemele to left guard. They now go Mckinnie, Osemele, Birk, Yanda, Oher. They have been playing as an elite line since this change.

You don't think having all day to throw is helping Flacco?

I agree with the success being due to the line. Flacco has had all day to throw, neither Denver and their big pass rush nor the Pats could lay a glove on him. He has simply been heaving the ball and letting his receivers do all of the work. If not for a performance by Champ Bailey that made Ike's game look all-pro by comparison, and Flacco's numbers are pedestrian.

Captain Lemming
01-24-2013, 04:32 PM
Your bias come through big time. ......

You don't think having all day to throw is helping Flacco?

Bias? Really Rob, you gonna go THERE? Did ya miss the "self included" part?

I did not want Caldwell, not by a longshot.

I have DEFENDED our guy, Todd Haley on this very board. I was for his hire.

I just read an article about the Flacco, which attributed his success largely to Caldwell.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1494677-revisiting-the-argument-that-ravens-qb-joe-flacco-is-elite

I immediately recalled the board and my personal prior negative thoughts on Caldwell, and was astonished by the obvious correlation between the Ravens offensive success and Caldwells taking over as OC.

I aint up all night thinking about some need to validate Caldwell. This whole season I never gave the dude a second thought till this morning.

Sure Rob, one can make the reasonable case that the Oline change has helped no doubt. But Flacco has had excellent Olines before.

Why the need to deflect deserved credit from an OC that is making GREAT offensive calls?

And you call ME biased?

If your looking for bias, try this:

757

supersteeler
01-24-2013, 04:32 PM
I agree with the success being due to the line. Flacco has had all day to throw, neither Denver and their big pass rush nor the Pats could lay a glove on him. He has simply been heaving the ball and letting his receivers do all of the work. If not for a performance by Champ Bailey that made Ike's game look all-pro by comparison, and Flacco's numbers are pedestrian.

See what a good O-line can do.....where's Warmack :)

feltdizz
01-24-2013, 04:38 PM
Hmmm..... Did Caldwell make the OL change? Regardless, it's working and they look like they will be a problem.

feltdizz
01-24-2013, 04:43 PM
Why the need to deflect deserved credit from an OC that is making GREAT offensive calls?

I think it's because it proves people wrong. I had no faith in the guy to be honest but I heard an interview where someone said it's still Cam's offense but Caldwell has the players believing it's now "THEIR" offense. Each skill player has input into what they like to do, what plays they like and what calls will put them in the best position to succeed. No one feels left out or under utilized.

Captain Lemming
01-24-2013, 05:16 PM
See what a good O-line can do.....where's Warmack :)

I would love to have Warmack.

What if....we draft him, Decastro and our young tackles make a huge leap in effectiveness.
Our oline is the best Ben has ever had.
At the same time we hire say...Chan Gailey again.

What if we average 30 a game.

The growth in the oline would be big .....but would Gailey not deserve praise for the job he has done?

ikestops85
01-24-2013, 05:20 PM
The guy figured out you have to get the ball in Ray Rice's hands 25 times a game. I think any one of us would have done that if we had been named their coordinator. I still don't give Caldwell any credit. Denver gave that game away to them and Flacco has been very lucky.

Can anybody tell I hate the Ratbirds and never want to give them any credit. :D

Captain Lemming
01-24-2013, 05:39 PM
The guy figured out you have to get the ball in Ray Rice's hands 25 times a game. I think any one of us would have done that if we had been named their coordinator. I still don't give Caldwell any credit.

That strategy was also done in 2010, 2011. That does not result in Flaccos recent tear.


Denver gave that game away to them and Flacco has been very lucky.

Peyton choked true, but Flacco did not. That is the difference between who won the game.


Can anybody tell I hate the Ratbirds and never want to give them any credit. :D

As long as you admit it, we get it.

BigRob
01-24-2013, 06:06 PM
Clearly you are "biased" according to Rob :rolleyes:

Yeah, it's called confirmation bias. It's simple. Some people wanted Caldwell here. He goes the ravens and becomes the OC in the last 3 games. Ravens have lots of success. It must be Caldwell, right? We Should have hired him! Oh Noes!

But you then ignore all of the other variables that were probably more important.

1. They kept the playbook the same.
2. Joe Flacco and Ray Rice didn't like Cam Cameron
3. They like Caldwell because he wasn't Cameron.
4. They switched their oline around that couldn't protect Joe Flacco.
5. Caldwell actually asked Joe for input into what plays he liked.
6. Joe's more secure in his relationship to his coaches and is getting better protection.
7. He plays better.

Really not a whole lot to do with Caldwell. Wait until teams get a whole offseason to analyze what Caldwell is calling.

P.S. Success with one team does not guarantee success with another. He may have sucked here too.

steelblood
01-24-2013, 06:11 PM
Caldwell has done a nice job. The play calling better suits the QB's tastes. However, the line changes were huge and this is still basically the offense created by Cameron. Caldwell has not designed much, but he has tailored or streamlined what was there to fit Flacco's strengths.

squidkid
01-24-2013, 06:27 PM
you cant blame the coach for the qb not throwing picks
you cant blame the coach for the rbs not fumbling
you cant blame the coach for the oline not getting injured
you cant blame the coach for the players being motivated

supersteeler
01-24-2013, 06:30 PM
I would love to have Warmack.

What if....we draft him, Decastro and our young tackles make a huge leap in effectiveness.
Our oline is the best Ben has ever had.
At the same time we hire say...Chan Gailey again.

What if we average 30 a game.

The growth in the oline would be big .....but would Gailey not deserve praise for the job he has done?


If we averaged 30 points a game, yes I would give Gailey or whoever is the OC credit, but the real credit goes to the O-line for that change from 21 to 30 a game.
WE got the cart, now get Warmack to pull it. : )

Captain Lemming
01-24-2013, 08:40 PM
Yeah, it's called confirmation bias. It's simple. Some people wanted Caldwell here. He goes the ravens and becomes the OC in the last 3 games. Ravens have lots of success. It must be Caldwell, right? We Should have hired him!

P.S. Success with one team does not guarantee success with another. He may have sucked here too.

The thing is Rob, you said "I" was biased. I did NOT want Caldwell. I said it in my original post. Where is my bias?
SteelCrazy, said nada about Caldwells current success, just replied to my post, so it doesnt apply there either.

I am SURPRISED by Caldwells success, had no expectation of it.

The "playbook" is overrated and far less important than play calling. "When" you call "what" plays, is a far bigger deal than your playbook, which for most teams is huge. That is exactly why I did not want Caldwell and thought Peyton carried him, Peyton called the plays.

You have a point about success on one team does not mean he would have it here, and time will tell whether it lasts. Nevertheless he is having more offensive success in this run than that team has had in its history, success we have not seen on our team during a 6 or 7 game stretch in recent memory.

I don't how he would do here, but I no longer am convinced it would have been a definite mistake like I once did.

feltdizz
01-24-2013, 09:11 PM
Yeah, it's called confirmation bias. It's simple. Some people wanted Caldwell here. He goes the ravens and becomes the OC in the last 3 games. Ravens have lots of success. It must be Caldwell, right? We Should have hired him! Oh Noes!

But you then ignore all of the other variables that were probably more important.

1. They kept the playbook the same.
2. Joe Flacco and Ray Rice didn't like Cam Cameron
3. They like Caldwell because he wasn't Cameron.
4. They switched their oline around that couldn't protect Joe Flacco.
5. Caldwell actually asked Joe for input into what plays he liked.
6. Joe's more secure in his relationship to his coaches and is getting better protection.
7. He plays better.

Really not a whole lot to do with Caldwell. Wait until teams get a whole offseason to analyze what Caldwell is calling.

P.S. Success with one team does not guarantee success with another. He may have sucked here too.

Who wanted Caldwell? You are talking like the OP is is saying "i told you so" but no one has admitted to wanting him. I think we are all surprised by his success. Streamlining the playbook and giving the QB what he wants is huge... and it hasnt been a Ray Rice festival. He had 2 fumbles in the Indy game and is now sharing touches with a rookie.

If Haley gets fired next year midseason and Kirby takes over, the OL gets flipped and plays better and we go on an amazing run Im sure people would give Kirby credit.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-24-2013, 09:22 PM
Your bias come through big time. Your attributing success to one man without considering other improvements that may have lead to Flacco's success.

Mainly that they changed up their O-line at this time. Mckinnie came out of the doghouse to play left tackle. That moved Oher to right tackle and Osemele to left guard. They now go Mckinnie, Osemele, Birk, Yanda, Oher. They have been playing as an elite line since this change.

You don't think having all day to throw is helping Flacco?

Not only has their line done well but he has two physical WR and a RB tandem that is up there with the best in the NFL.

SidSmythe
01-24-2013, 09:28 PM
Caldwell is a step up from Cameron probably b/c Peyton Manning taught him half of what he knows.

Captain Lemming
01-24-2013, 11:57 PM
Not only has their line done well but he has two physical WR and a RB tandem that is up there with the best in the NFL.

Mr P, you miss Robs point. The oline changes contributed to an improvment that happened around the time Caldwell was promoted.

The team did not improve because of receivers who were there from day one.

Frankly you make my case. Why was this offense so average with all these weapons until Caldwell was promoted?

Captain Lemming
01-25-2013, 12:21 AM
Caldwell is a step up from Cameron probably b/c Peyton Manning taught him half of what he knows.

What do you really know about Cameron? People who know him, worked with him think the dude is pretty smart.

Check this out:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/21/sports/football/ravens-caldwell-lets-his-offense-make-loudest-statement.html?pagewanted=1



When Brock Huard joined the Colts as a backup in 2002, he felt confident walking into his first quarterbacks meeting with Manning and Caldwell. After spending the previous three seasons with the Seattle Seahawks, Huard had become proficient in the nuances of the West Coast offense — no easy feat. How difficult could it be to learn some new terminology? “I was thinking, I’ve got this whole thing licked,” Huard said.


He was mistaken, and he came to that realization within seconds of entering the room. Caldwell had covered every inch of several large whiteboards with opponents’ tendencies, plays for various downs and distances, routes, cuts, schemes, checks and reads. Caldwell’s penmanship was meticulous, Huard said, each formula and diagram etched with the steady hand of a surgeon. Huard found roughly 95 percent of it to be incomprehensible. After studying algebra, he had landed in a graduate-school seminar on thermodynamics.


“I remember calling my wife at minicamp and saying, ‘I can’t do this, this is crazy,’ ” Huard said. “There were actually times during the season when I was like, ‘Oh man, I hope Peyton doesn’t get hurt.’ Because what he and Jim were doing was so off-the-charts.”


Asked when he finally felt he had gotten up to speed, Huard said: “Never. That’s why I only lasted two years there.”

Heading into Sunday, Caldwell had made changes that bolstered the Ravens’ offense. One was directing Flacco to roll out of the pocket with greater frequency, which helped stymie pass rushers. Linebackers and defensive ends are always trying to anticipate a quarterback’s “launch point,” Caldwell said. By keeping them guessing — would Flacco roll out? and if he did, would he move to his left or right? — Flacco bought additional time. The mere threat of being mobile made him more difficult to defend.


Even more important, Caldwell had called for Flacco to throw the ball deep far more often than he had under Cameron. Brock Huard, a former N.F.L. quarterback who spent two seasons with Caldwell in Indianapolis, said the move made a lot of sense. Known as a coach who typically plays to his quarterbacks’ strengths, Caldwell wanted Flacco to showcase his spring-loaded arm. “He’s a big-time talent down the field,” Brock Huard said last week in a telephone interview. “Let him unload.”

grotonsteel
01-25-2013, 12:42 AM
So Ravens get an OC who listens to his QB and flourish where as Steelers hire an OC who wants to run the ball most of the time (Art II demand) even though they don't have a RB to do so??

Intersting. One team is in SB and other team playing golf.

Captain Lemming
01-25-2013, 12:44 AM
This is from an article written when Cameron was first fired, replaced by Caldwell:


"The Baltimore Ravens' firing of offensive coordinator Cam Cameron with three games remaining comes across as a panic move. Teams headed to the playoffs rarely make such major changes like this.

But make no mistake: This is the right move. Joe Flacco has been too inconsistent. Ray Riceisn't being used enough. The Ravens' offense has been sleepwalking, and an aggressive move like this one can provide a spark."


The writer makes this prophetic statement:

"The biggest criticism I had about Cameron was the lack of touches for Rice and the lack of adjustments after halftime."


http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/60985/firing-cameron-is-right-call-for-ravens


Bear in mind the above was written BEFORE Caldwell took over.


Same writer made the following comment in an article he just wrote:


The reason why the Ravens were able to beat the New England Patriots Sunday was loosening the reigns on quarterback Joe Flacco after halftime. New offensive coordinator Jim Caldwell spread out the defense with more three-receiver looks and went away from a plodding run game, putting the ball in Flacco's hands.

On the three touchdown drives, which all ended with Flacco passes in the red zone, the Ravens went no huddle and shotgun on 15 of the 24 plays. Flacco threw the ball 70 percent of the time on those series as the Ravens went from trailing 13-7 to going ahead 28-13.

I don't see Cameron signing off on that adjustment in the second half. He increasingly gave Flacco more freedom every year, but he didn't hand over the offense to Flacco like Caldwell did in New England.


http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/po...brilliant-move

This guy, who covers the AFC North puts credit squarely on the OC for the Ravens being in the SB and makes a strong case for it.

Captain Lemming
01-25-2013, 01:10 AM
So Ravens get an OC who listens to his QB and flourish where as Steelers hire an OC who wants to run the ball most of the time (Art II demand) even though they don't have a RB to do so??

Intersting. One team is in SB and other team playing golf.

Well, actually the Ravens are running more than we ever do and throw far less.

We threw the ball 574 times. That must be close to a franchise record.

Under Arians we never threw that much as we did this year.

Slapstick
01-25-2013, 07:10 AM
The reason why the Ravens were able to beat the New England Patriots Sunday was loosening the reigns on quarterback Joe Flacco after halftime.

The reason the Ravens were able to beat the Patriots was Bernard Pollard knocking Stevan Ridley the F out, forcing a fumble that the Ravens recovered...

Something to be said for defense in the playoffs...

feltdizz
01-25-2013, 08:02 AM
The reason the Ravens were able to beat the Patriots was Bernard Pollard knocking Stevan Ridley the F out, forcing a fumble that the Ravens recovered...

Something to be said for defense in the playoffs...

I agree... but the Ravens O didnt settle for FG's once they got the ball. I watched a Raven team break the Pats spirit with physical football the WRs were looking over their shoulders all day and short arming passes.

Captain Lemming
01-25-2013, 01:44 PM
The reason the Ravens were able to beat the Patriots was Bernard Pollard knocking Stevan Ridley the F out, forcing a fumble that the Ravens recovered...

Something to be said for defense in the playoffs...

No doubt Slapstick the defense was awesome and deserves credit too. But the authors point is that Caldwell made a halftime adjustment that the offense needed to take the game over. The Ravens did not do that in the past very well.

Caldwell was more willing to let his QB take the game over when needed. That is not just offensive line improvement, that is a strategic and philosophical change. Caldwell deserves credit for this strategical change.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-25-2013, 02:03 PM
So I guess the question here is does Ben still have the ability to take a game over? He isn't as mobile to be rolling out buying time. He had a partially torn rotator cuff or whatever the shoulder issue was he entered the season with. Then, he had his shoulder/rib issue. Is the right/ smart move exactly the direction it appears the Rooney's and Haley are taking the team by focusing on the OL and the running game to make Ben less important in the offense?

BigRob
01-25-2013, 02:12 PM
Few teams are willing to fiddle with their lineup entering the playoffs.


That makes the Ravens’ willingness to blow up their offensive line amazing, and the results have justified the decision.


They took former Pro Bowler Bryant McKinnie (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1210/bryant-mckinnie) out of exile on the bench and started him at left tackle, which moved Michael Oher (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5182/michael-oher) from left to right tackle, and Kelechi Osemele (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7504/kelechi-osemele) from right tackle to left guard.


But it took McKinnie convicing his coaches after an up-and-down offseason which included weight problems and a late arrival at training camp after he supposedly slipped and injured his back at his home.


The Ravens had allowed 15 sacks in their previous five games, when McKinnie went to coach John Harbaugh prior to the regular season finale.
“I just told him how badly I wanted to play (http://www.carrollcountytimes.com/sports/ravens/mckinnie-helps-solidify-ravens-offensive-line/article_ea7d54ac-e705-5175-9760-66557a4083a4.html),” McKinnie said, via Matt Zenitz of the Carroll County Times. “I just felt like I could help and make a difference, and he was like, ‘Just show me at practice.’”


He apparently did, as their offensive line has stabilized in recent weeks, allowing four sacks in three playoff games, and paving the way for their running backs to be an actual factor in the result (which wasn’t always the case in the regular season).


“It’s just clicked,” Osemele said of the new-look line. “I don’t know what it is, but, . . . it’s just a good fit.


“We really didn’t even have to take many reps before we realized how dominant we could be.”

McKinnie’s been the key, as he kept pass-rushers Dwight Freeney (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1517/dwight-freeney) and Elvis Dumervil (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3941/elvis-dumervil) at bay, something quarterback Joe Flacco (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/4677/joe-flacco)’s thankful for.
“ I think it’s a pretty solid group we have up there right now,” Flacco said. “Bryant’s fresh, playing quick and moving well. And obviously, with his stature out there, he’s a big, strong guy.


“It gives us five really good talents up there and they’re playing well together.”
That it happened when perhaps their most talented player had to beg his way out of the doghouse makes it that much more impressive.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/25/addition-of-mckinnie-has-stabilized-ravens-offensive-line/

The QB gets more time to throw and the running backs have room to run? Amazing how that leads to wins. Less to do with who's calling the plays and more to do with execution. A lot of the same plays being called, just being executed better. Everyone is happy Cam's gone. Doesn't make Caldwell a great OC.

Caldwell went 1-2 as an OC in the regular season. Then they make the o-line changes, and everyone plays better. Hmmm, I wonder what was the key to their recent success.

Are we also discounting the impact Ray Lewis has had on this team in the playoffs as and the resulting motivation?