Is this The Time For The Steelers to Consider Moving To 4-3 Cover 2 team ?

[supersteeler]

Our current system worked well for many years, however is the personel that we have or will have be better suited to play the 4-3?

I really don't know, but it appears our two #1 picks Hood & Heyward might have better results in that type of defense, and we might not have the LB core like in the past to stay with the 3-4.

There is a possibility we might lose James Harrison, and we'll need a ILB at some point especially if Foote retires, so I was wondering if there might be a change looming in the coming months.

If there was consideration to do this, it might change who we draft too, Safety is a position we talked about for the future as Troy and Clark are aging, but will a change make Safety even more relevant?

Personally, I'm not proposing we do this but I would be open to any change that can make us better with the personel we have.
Besides Heyward,Hood, Mclendon might thrive in 4-3 all younger playrer who are expected to be here for awhile.

I do know Mike Tomlin ran the Tampa Two in Minnesota, but when he came here he kept LeBeau's system intact but that was when we had Farrior a younger Foote and Harrison. To be succesful in a 3-4 you need really good LBers that we enjoyed for years but I wonder if thats coming to an end.
We would have our Starters in place@ LB if Harrison leaves with Woodley Timmons, and Worlids playing in the 4-3 spense as a back-up, Carter, and sylvester.

Your thoughts?

[Slapstick]

Our current system worked well for many years, however is the personel that we have or will have be better suited to play the 4-3?

I really don't know, but it appears our two #1 picks Hood & Heyward might have better results in that type of defense, and we might not have the LB core like in the past to stay with the 3-4.

There is a possibility we might lose James Harrison, and we'll need a ILB at some point especially if Foote retires, so I was wondering if there might be a change looming in the coming months.

If there was consideration to do this, it might change who we draft too, Safety is a position we talked about for the future as Troy and Clark are aging, but will a change make Safety even more relevant?

Personally, I'm not proposing we do this but I would be open to any change that can make us better with the personel we have.
Besides Heyward,Hood, Mclendon might thrive in 4-3 all younger playrer who are expected to be here for awhile.

I do know Mike Tomlin ran the Tampa Two in Minnesota, but when he came here he kept LeBeau's system intact but that was when we had Farrior a younger Foote and Harrison. To be succesful in a 3-4 you need really good LBers that we enjoyed for years but I wonder if thats coming to an end.
We would have our Starters in place@ LB if Harrison leaves with Woodley Timmons, and Worlids playing in the 4-3 spense as a back-up, Carter, and sylvester.

Your thoughts?

1) Dick LeBeau is coming back next year. He prefers the 3-4...

2) The defense was #1 in yards and, more importantly, #6 in scoring defense...

Despite what you may read in some people's posts, things are not broken, so they don't require fixing...

Now, after LeBeau leaves? Then, Tomlin and the DC (whether Butler or someone else) can run whatever defense they want...

[phillyesq]

I would be shocked if anybody on the coaching staff or in the f.o. has mentioned this even once.

[steelz09]

No.... I don't want to switch the defense, especially to the Tampa-2 when Tomlin could get fired if he and his team perform the way they did this past year.

[hawaiiansteel]

1) Dick LeBeau is coming back next year. He prefers the 3-4...

Now, after LeBeau leaves? Then, Tomlin and the DC (whether Butler or someone else) can run whatever defense they want...

this pretty much answers the question, no need to discuss this topic any further until Dick retires...

[supersteeler]

Found this after reading up on the subject.




But now, is it time for a change? Time to switch back to the 4-3 for the very same reasons Widenhofer gave for switching 30 years ago: to suit their talent?
They had an abundance at linebacker for most of the past three decades. They no longer do. It began when they released James Farrior. James Harrison will be 35 next season and has a $10 million salary cap number on a team that again must make tough choices to get under it for 2013. The only other Pro Bowl linebacker on the team is LaMarr Woodley. Larry Foote will be 33 next season but is playing at a good level.

On the other hand, they have invested much more recently into their defensive line. They used two first-round draft choices on ends Ziggy Hood and Cam Heyward. Another former No. 1, nose tackle Casey Hampton, is 35 and took a pay cut to play in what looks to be his final season. They used a fourth-round draft choice to take what some thought was his successor in Alameda Ta'amu but his status remains questionable for reasons on and off the field. They also have two other linemen they like, tackle Steve McLendon and end Al Woods.

How would a 4-3 alignment look in 2013 if, say, Harrison, Hampton and Brett Keisel, who will be 34 next year, were no longer here?

Start with the two top picks. Hood would play defensive tackle next to, say, McLendon. Heyward would line up at an end. That leaves one more end on the line. Woodley played there at Michigan and is big enough to play the position. Woods could be an option. Or Jason Worilds. They also could draft or sign one.

They could move Lawrence Timmons to outside linebacker, which suits his talents in the 4-3, with Woodley more likely the other rather than moving to end. That leaves the middle linebacker to Foote or Sean Spence, who is spending his rookie season on injured reserve. Spence also could play outside linebacker.

Viable?

"We can do it," said Foote, who noted they have practiced the 4-3, especially last season when Harrison and Woodley were hurt. Just in case.

He also noted that coordinator Dick LeBeau, linebackers coach Keith Butler (coordinator in waiting) and coach Mike Tomlin all have worked with 4-3 defenses.

"We threw it in when our linebackers got hurt and we were down in numbers," Foote said. "... We had it to a point, we repped it and they were comfortable running it."

Woodley said he prefers to play linebacker in the 3-4 because his duties are more varied than when he played end at Michigan and mostly rushed the quarterback.

"Could we transition to it? Yeah, we can transition to it," Woodley said. "We have enough of everything to transition to it."

It's not far-fetched, again for the same reasons they switched 30 years ago to the 3-4: That's what the talent could dictate as their linebackers age.


Talent dicates what a Coach can do, LeBeau can't run the 3-4 with a drop off of talent @ LB and remain successful, unless we get help in the draft.

[lloydroid]

Oh, revisiting this subject again? How many times does it make the re-emergence of this thread? All we have to know is Dick is back, so this is 100% of a non-subject. Once he retires, we can re-visit. I also started a thread on this, so, I guess what's one more time matter?

[supersteeler]

Oh, revisiting this subject again? How many times does it make the re-emergence of this thread? All we have to know is Dick is back, so this is 100% of a non-subject. Once he retires, we can re-visit. I also started a thread on this, so, I guess what's one more time matter?


I wasn't aware that this was brought up before being a newer member here. Also as I pointed out I wasn't proposing a change, however there is validity to it > See the LB corps if Siverback retires or isn't signed.

I would think talent dictates what you can employ on defense or offense, we can't run the ball on offense because of it.

[Shawn]

As long as the father of the 3-4 is our DC, we will play 3-4. Lets discuss this again after he retires.

[lloydroid]

I wasn't aware that this was brought up before being a newer member here. Also as I pointed out I wasn't proposing a change, however there is validity to it > See the LB corps if Siverback retires or isn't signed.

I would think talent dictates what you can employ on defense or offense, we can't run the ball on offense because of it.

No worries. I started a thread on this same topic. I proposed going with a DL of Woodley (let him just stay too heavy for a LB and put him at DE), Hood, Heyward, McClendon, Keisel, Woods, and a rookie or two. Then go with Worilds, Timmons and Harrison at LB. Maybe Spense could be in the mix. We could do some kind of hybrid like NE has been doing. It just seems we could be getting more out of the players we have. IDK

[Slapstick]

I read the article...I think it's from back in October...

The Steelers did practice the 4-3...that in and of itself is interesting...

LeBeau has changed his defense from the 3-4 to the 4-3 before, when he was in Cincinnati...it was dictated by the talent available...


http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-67849481.html

Also (from the NY Times Fifth Down Blog):


Zone blitz concepts can be run from a 4-3 front as well, if you’ve got the athletes to do it. Capers used the zone blitz in a 4-3 in Jacksonville, but had the luxury of players like Tony Brackens and Bryce Paup off the edge.

Carnell Lake played for that Jacksonville team...

Now, I don't necessarily believe that the defense will change...but, I am saying that LeBeau would be willing to adjust to the talent...

[Starlifter]

1) Dick LeBeau is coming back next year. He prefers the 3-4...

2) The defense was #1 in yards and, more importantly, #6 in scoring defense...

Despite what you may read in some people's posts, things are not broken, so they don't require fixing...

Now, after LeBeau leaves? Then, Tomlin and the DC (whether Butler or someone else) can run whatever defense they want...

do they keep a stat of blown leads and last minute drive success?

Peyton manning is awesome for stats - except when it's crunch time in the playoffs. Over the last few years our defense has mellowed into something that's built on scheme and not overpowering physical. do we control the line of scrimmage anymore? how are our sacks and turnovers? those are things that go beyond the stats and tell the true story of how dominating a defense is. I don't care if our defense only allows 7 points a game. if it's the last drive of the game they give it up on so we lose 7-6 it's a failure in my book. we lost more than a handful of games this year by less than one score that was achieved in the last minute. if only they had been #5 in scoring defense we probably would have made the playoffs!

[feltdizz]

ask Ovi.....

[supersteeler]

I read the article...I think it's from back in October...

The Steelers did practice the 4-3...that in and of itself is interesting...

LeBeau has changed his defense from the 3-4 to the 4-3 before, when he was in Cincinnati...it was dictated by the talent available...



Also (from the NY Times Fifth Down Blog):



Carnell Lake played for that Jacksonville team...

Now, I don't necessarily believe that the defense will change...but, I am saying that LeBeau would be willing to adjust to the talent...

Thats what I 'm saying, most likely he won't change it but we could morph into a 4-3, its not like they haven't practiced it due to injuries.
Looking back on the 2012 season if there was one paticular positions that underperformed on defense it was our OLB's. Harrison our best OLB when healthy might not be here next season unless they work out some deal with him.
Is Woodley going to regain his former high level play?

We had our lowest amount of sacks the last few years, and QB pressures, so that tells me the LB play declined as opposed to years past. Not just that, but I think the talent on our D-line is better suited to play in a 4-3, IMHO.
The players think they can do it, but Lamar prefers the 3-4 but also said it can be done, so it will be up to LeBeau. Do we still have the pieces to retain the 3-4 or is a change a possibility due to the talent we have.

[steelz09]

I think it has less to do with scheme and more to do with our players not winning their 1-on-1 matchups.

[phillyesq]

I think it has less to do with scheme and more to do with our players not winning their 1-on-1 matchups.

Absolutely.

Whether a 3-4 or a 4-3, Woodley will be coming off the edge. He needs to win. His complete disappearing act this year was a major source of the Steelers problems.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

How are you guys so sure Lebeau is back? Cause he said he wanted to come back? Arians said much of the same, and Tomlin said he would be back as well only to go a different route later.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

Tired of players finally becoming full time starters/ performing well in their contract year, only to leave in free agency.

[papillon]

4-3, 3-4 or 5-2 it really doesn't matter as Steelz09 mentioned the players need to win a 1 vs 1 battle to make any of those schemes work on the front 7. If the NT is getting pushed around the team will run, if the edge rushers are getting pushed behind the quarterback and a good pocket is there he'll step up and complete passes, it's when the defense wins a battle at LOS that they are successful.

I don't really care what formation they play, they need to win some individual battles and there wasn't a whole lot of that until the end of the season.

Pappy

[supersteeler]

Absolutely.

Whether a 3-4 or a 4-3, Woodley will be coming off the edge. He needs to win. His complete disappearing act this year was a major source of the Steelers problems.


I can agree with that, its been going on for two years now. Look at the sack totals the last few years....the lowest amount in years. Is this an indication of decline of our OLB play? Or is it a combination of scheme and underperformance.
When Aaron Smith was healthy and a younger Casey Hampton, Keisel, the front seven was damn good. we don't have the same production up front so that might be part of the problem why the LB's play dropped.

McClendon Kiesel DE's Hood and Fangupo/Ta'amu DT's, I wonder if that would be better. I still think Hood, Heyward, and Mclendon are better suited to play in a 4-3, could be wrong but we'll never know.

[flippy]

I think a better question is how do we improve our 4 man line on 3rd down/passing downs. If you look at the way offenses are evolving, there's more opportunity for a 4 man line. And if we get into 3rd and long, there's even greater time to get pressure.

I personally like the 3-4 as a base D and think it sets us up for 3rd and longs. And I prefer a more traditional 4 man line in passing situations. It feels like we just need better pressure from our LBs and we need to find some super big and super athletic guys that can play OLB.

More of these athletic freaks come around every year. We just need one of them. And picking 17 might put us in a position to get one of these guys.

There's more and more of them, but there's also a premium on those guys and they're becoming harder to find/get. Neither Harrison or Woodley fit the mold of the new prototype OLB. Harrison's too small and Woodley isn't athletic enough. We need to find a guy with Woodley's size and Timmon's athleticism.

I do think Worilds is one of those guys and I'm hoping he's ready to take the next step. Now lets find another.

[supersteeler]

I think a better question is how do we improve our 4 man line on 3rd down/passing downs. If you look at the way offenses are evolving, there's more opportunity for a 4 man line. And if we get into 3rd and long, there's even greater time to get pressure.

I personally like the 3-4 as a base D and think it sets us up for 3rd and longs. And I prefer a more traditional 4 man line in passing situations. It feels like we just need better pressure from our LBs and we need to find some super big and super athletic guys that can play OLB.

More of these athletic freaks come around every year. We just need one of them. And picking 17 might put us in a position to get one of these guys.

There's more and more of them, but there's also a premium on those guys and they're becoming harder to find/get. Neither Harrison or Woodley fit the mold of the new prototype OLB. Harrison's too small and Woodley isn't athletic enough. We need to find a guy with Woodley's size and Timmon's athleticism.

I do think Worilds is one of those guys and I'm hoping he's ready to take the next step. Now lets find another.


Thats a logical question you brought up. If I'm not mistaken New England uses both so its not out of the question that we could employ a similar scheme.
As it was said here, our players have to win the one on one battles, I agree with that too.
I don't see any harm in exploring different ways to employ our defense, now if we could get the next James Harrison in the draft that would probably shelve the 4-3 thinking for the short term.

[Slapstick]

I think it has less to do with scheme and more to do with our players not winning their 1-on-1 matchups.

In the case of our D-Linemen, they often need to win-or-stalemate 2 on 1 matchups...if you make them responsible for one gap as opposed to two, you can increase the chances of winning a 1-on-1 matchup...

[Oviedo]

In the case of our D-Linemen, they often need to win-or-stalemate 2 on 1 matchups...if you make them responsible for one gap as opposed to two, you can increase the chances of winning a 1-on-1 matchup...

Correct. That would enable them to influence plays by attacking the ball carrier or QB versus occupying Offensive linemen. We waste the talent of our DL but it will stay that way as long as the team is held hostage by LeBeau's "legend." No one will make a change as long as he is here nor will they even be allowed to consider it.

[phillyesq]

Correct. That would enable them to influence plays by attacking the ball carrier or QB versus occupying Offensive linemen. We waste the talent of our DL but it will stay that way as long as the team is held hostage by LeBeau's "legend." No one will make a change as long as he is here nor will they even be allowed to consider it.

And since he's been here (the second time) and since you've suggested that the Steelers abandon the 3-4, the Steelers have been to 3 Super Bowls and won 2.

[steelz09]

Correct. That would enable them to influence plays by attacking the ball carrier or QB versus occupying Offensive linemen. We waste the talent of our DL but it will stay that way as long as the team is held hostage by LeBeau's "legend." No one will make a change as long as he is here nor will they even be allowed to consider it.

I realize that and I knew someone was going to bring up the d-line 2-on-1 matchups. How about the d-line just PLAY better? You want to switch our entire defense because a old Hampton and an non-Smith-clone Ziggy Hood can't eat up 2 blockers? The Hampton situation is the Steelers own fault. Many of us were calling for a future NT to be drafted years ago.

How about we develop a NT or draft better? It's not the 3-4's fault. I have no problem with the 3-4. I do have a problem with the pressure when we bring 4 or more blitzers. Maybe Lebeau's blitz packages are getting outdated. That's possible. Is it the 3-4 scheme? Absolutely not.

[Slapstick]

I realize that and I knew someone was going to bring up the d-line 2-on-1 matchups. How about the d-line just PLAY better? You want to switch our entire defense because a old Hampton and an non-Smith-clone Ziggy Hood can't eat up 2 blockers? The Hampton situation is the Steelers own fault. Many of us were calling for a future NT to be drafted years ago.

How about we develop a NT or draft better? It's not the 3-4's fault. I have no problem with the 3-4. I do have a problem with the pressure when we bring 4 or more blitzers. Maybe Lebeau's blitz packages are getting outdated. That's possible. Is it the 3-4 scheme? Absolutely not.

The problem is not the 3-4 scheme...the scheme, executed properly, is what earned the defense a #1 ranking in yardage...

But, does that scheme best fit the players we have?

Again, I don't think the scheme will change...but, I do think that the coaching staff should follow the lead of Colbert and not take any considerations off the table...