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SidSmythe
01-13-2013, 08:12 PM
Why Can't the Steelers develop and plug in players like the Patriots do???

Seems like no matter who the Pats put on the field they can still win.
Doesn't matter how many times they've been cut, where they were drafted......they just win.

Rob Nincovich??? Drated in the 5th, cut by the Saints....goes to Dolphins, then back to Saints. Now he's all over the field with the Patriots!!

birtikidis
01-13-2013, 08:16 PM
It all starts up front on both sides of the ball. You see wilfork? He owns the line right now and the o line get a push every play

flippy
01-13-2013, 08:22 PM
I think a lot has to do with Brady being that much better than Ben with his pre snap reads. Brady attacks every matchup advantage. He does it quickly. And he'll snap the ball in a split second if the D is confused or slow in any way.

On the flip side, their D yardage rankings suffer. But who cares when you can put that much pressure on another team. Their D is aggressive and fights for turnovers and takes chances.

It's a whole different philosophy. We'd have to adjust our D as well to do what the Pats do. And we might need a different QB.

BURGH86STEEL
01-13-2013, 08:28 PM
Because the Pats have Tom Brady.

7 UP
01-13-2013, 08:37 PM
Why Can't the Steelers develop and plug in players like the Patriots do???

!

We used to. We arent hitting on many of our mid-round picks at all in recent years.

Chadman
01-13-2013, 08:38 PM
It's an excellent question- they seem to get excellent production from moderate skill players all the time.

The answer is probably a combination of the things mentioned in here already- the Patriots put a lot of emphasis on both Lines in the draft. The result is they often dominate on both sides. This allows the lesser skill players more room to do what they can do, without having to worry about blockers, or defenders in the backfield.

Tom Brady is excellent at the LOS too. His reads of play are out of this world. The result is, that system seems to chug along with ease.

Their F.O., if you remove the cheating, is one of the best. They identify quality players that fit a system. All the players seem to know their role, the importance of doing their role. It's a well run machine.

And, as much as it pains Chadman to say it- they are inovators. One step ahead at all times. Which team first spread the Steelers Defense out, taking away the constant pass rush pressure, opening up holes, & gave up on running against us?

the Patriots.

Which team made everyone scratch their heads & wonder if there was any kind of plan involved in drafting both Gronkowski & Hernandez in the same draft? Who drafts 2 TE's early? Idiots!

Oh.... that'd be the Patriots too.

They are a step ahead, and not only because of sneaky videos.

JB13
01-13-2013, 08:51 PM
This game against the Texans is a prime example of the chasm that exist between the Steelers and the Patriots and, more specifically, Tomlin and Belichick.

1) Brady has all day to throw
2) Patriots don't turn the ball over and play FAST - forcing the opposing defense to adapt
3) Danny Woodhead goes down, they have a highly serviceable replacement who plays smart and with urgency - the replacement is not a liability
4) Patriots D - their coverage is tight and they find a way to put pressure on the QB and force him to make poor decisions
5) Pats in-game adjustments force the Texans to adjust
6) Guys you never heard of are making plays and having an impact - like Vereen, the aforementioned Ninkovich, and others
7) Even if their D gives up a lot of yards, they are super tough in the red zone and because their offense is so good, teams know they are going to need to score a lot of points to win, so they take chances they shouldn't and play outside their strengths

Belichick just gets it. I wish we had 25% of the savvy and smarts the Patriots have. They are ready every week and you have to play your best to beat them. Can't say the same about the Steelers.

SidSmythe
01-13-2013, 09:12 PM
This game against the Texans is a prime example of the chasm that exist between the Steelers and the Patriots and, more specifically, Tomlin and Belichick.

1) Brady has all day to throw
2) Patriots don't turn the ball over and play FAST - forcing the opposing defense to adapt
3) Danny Woodhead goes down, they have a highly serviceable replacement who plays smart and with urgency - the replacement is not a liability
4) Patriots D - their coverage is tight and they find a way to put pressure on the QB and force him to make poor decisions
5) Pats in-game adjustments force the Texans to adjust
6) Guys you never heard of are making plays and having an impact - like Vereen, the aforementioned Ninkovich, and others
7) Even if their D gives up a lot of yards, they are super tough in the red zone and because their offense is so good, teams know they are going to need to score a lot of points to win, so they take chances they shouldn't and play outside their strengths

Belichick just gets it. I wish we had 25% of the savvy and smarts the Patriots have. They are ready every week and you have to play your best to beat them. Can't say the same about the Steelers.

$$$$$$
Vereen was another one of those guys who came to my mind.

SteelBucks
01-13-2013, 09:40 PM
Why Can't the Steelers develop and plug in players like the Patriots do???

Seems like no matter who the Pats put on the field they can still win.
Doesn't matter how many times they've been cut, where they were drafted......they just win.

Rob Nincovich??? Drated in the 5th, cut by the Saints....goes to Dolphins, then back to Saints. Now he's all over the field with the Patriots!!

There are 31 other teams asking the same question...

Mister Pittsburgh
01-13-2013, 09:51 PM
How many timing patterns where Brady drops back and throws to a spot do you see Brady throw a game? 20? You see Ben throw zero unless it is a stay pattern. You telling me Wallace couldn't run 10 yds down field with a CB giving a 10 yd cushion and starting to backpedal at the snap and turn on a dime only to find a Big Ben rifled pass waiting for him?

Why don't we run more timing patterns? Ben? WR's? Stupid OC's? Directives from the front office?

focosteeler
01-13-2013, 10:50 PM
How many timing patterns where Brady drops back and throws to a spot do you see Brady throw a game? 20? You see Ben throw zero unless it is a stay pattern. You telling me Wallace couldn't run 10 yds down field with a CB giving a 10 yd cushion and starting to backpedal at the snap and turn on a dime only to find a Big Ben rifled pass waiting for him?

Why don't we run more timing patterns? Ben? WR's? Stupid OC's? Directives from the front office?

Probably ben. Why run timing patterns when Ben will hold the ball too long waiting for the homerun shot.

squidkid
01-13-2013, 11:33 PM
coaching,,

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-14-2013, 12:00 AM
3) Danny Woodhead goes down, they have a highly serviceable replacement who plays smart and with urgency - the replacement is not a liability


I disagree here. I think that every Steeler RB played just as good as the others.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-14-2013, 12:31 AM
I heard the Pats TE say in a post game interview that they keep trucking if someone goes down because each of them know all the offensive positions.

lloydroid
01-14-2013, 12:34 AM
I heard the Pats TE say in a post game interview that they keep trucking if someone goes down because each of them know all the offensive positions.

Yea, and our team says kind of the same thing: Next man up. The standard is the standard. But that crap only flies for so long. We were on our what? 4th of 5th OT at one point? 4th string RB? A CB who we signed off the street actually started?

Mister Pittsburgh
01-14-2013, 12:36 AM
Yea, and our team says kind of the same thing: Next man up. The standard is the standard. But that crap only flies for so long. We were on our what? 4th of 5th OT at one point? 4th string RB? A CB who we signed off the street actually started?

No, they know the OTHER positions jobs.

feltdizz
01-14-2013, 09:25 AM
The Pats throw their players out there and see if they can swim.....

We put our players over in the kiddie pool with the floaters on their arms.

BradshawsHairdresser
01-14-2013, 09:46 AM
It's an excellent question- they seem to get excellent production from moderate skill players all the time. The answer is probably a combination of the things mentioned in here already- the Patriots put a lot of emphasis on both Lines in the draft. The result is they often dominate on both sides. This allows the lesser skill players more room to do what they can do, without having to worry about blockers, or defenders in the backfield. Tom Brady is excellent at the LOS too. His reads of play are out of this world. The result is, that system seems to chug along with ease. Their F.O., if you remove the cheating, is one of the best. They identify quality players that fit a system. All the players seem to know their role, the importance of doing their role. It's a well run machine. And, as much as it pains Chadman to say it- they are inovators. One step ahead at all times. Which team first spread the Steelers Defense out, taking away the constant pass rush pressure, opening up holes, & gave up on running against us? the Patriots. Which team made everyone scratch their heads & wonder if there was any kind of plan involved in drafting both Gronkowski & Hernandez in the same draft? Who drafts 2 TE's early? Idiots! Oh.... that'd be the Patriots too. They are a step ahead, and not only because of sneaky videos. Sounds to me as though you're saying the Patriots' coaching and F.O. are way better than the Steelers' coaching and F.O..

feltdizz
01-14-2013, 10:09 AM
Sounds to me as though you're saying the Patriots' coaching and F.O. are way better than the Steelers' coaching and F.O..

how did you come to that conclusion? lol

Chadman
01-14-2013, 10:09 AM
Sounds to me as though you're saying the Patriots' coaching and F.O. are way better than the Steelers' coaching and F.O..

Yes & no. The Steelers have a long history of getting it right. Take away 8-8 this season, and we wouldn't even question if they are on par or close to the Patriots.

For all the innovation the Pats bring to the game, the Steelers have found ways to continuously tinker with older systems & make them work- so that's innovation in itself. The real differences have been, of late (last 5 years) that the Steelers current coaching group is still 'finding it's feet' in some ways. Tomlin came into the NFL with what was a pretty good team. He learned early not to mess with what he had, just tinker away, and he was very successful doing that. Now he faces a new challenge- creating a new group of core players- and we are about to see over the next year or two if the current coaching group can adjust. The Patriots group aren't new to this. And Bellicheck has had far more failure in his career than Tomlin. But he's obviously learned from his mistakes, and has become a very astute HC. Tomlin is starting to enter the areas of his career that produce new challenges, and potential failures. Maybe 2012's 8-8 is the steepest learning curve he's faced. we'll see by the draft/FA period, and then by how TC is run.

Success isn't generally about luck. It's about facing hurdles & knowing how to overcome them. The 'knowing' part is the hard part- the bit that causes the most pain- because generally to get to 'knowing' the right way- you have to learn it from doing it the wrong way.

Here's betting 2013 isn't 8-8.

Sword
01-14-2013, 10:17 AM
How many timing patterns where Brady drops back and throws to a spot do you see Brady throw a game? 20? You see Ben throw zero unless it is a stay pattern. You telling me Wallace couldn't run 10 yds down field with a CB giving a 10 yd cushion and starting to backpedal at the snap and turn on a dime only to find a Big Ben rifled pass waiting for him?

Why don't we run more timing patterns? Ben? WR's? Stupid OC's? Directives from the front office?
Exactly!!!! Our problems start with Coaching and Discipline which, the pats have down to a science.... please Steelers watch and learn....

SidSmythe
01-14-2013, 11:11 AM
The Pats throw their players out there and see if they can swim.....

We put our players over in the kiddie pool with the floaters on their arms.

Yep Yep Yep!!

DBR96A
01-14-2013, 11:20 AM
The Pats throw their players out there and see if they can swim.....

We put our players over in the kiddie pool with the floaters on their arms.
Only on defense. Roethlisberger got thrown into the pool. Granted, there were unusual circumstances, but thrown in the pool he certainly was.

supersteeler
01-14-2013, 11:25 AM
Bens turkey bowl or backyard football served him well with three SB appearances, Brees, P. Manning,Rogers, all considered better than Ben by the media have one stinking ring.

Ben won't wow anyone with stats, or how he plays the game, but he has the hardware (rings) saying his brand of football might not be pleasing to fans but his goal is winning Super Bowls.

Btw, He is without a doubt the toughest QB out there, if all these other QB's played with the lines Ben had they wouldn't of lasted.

I get what your saying Mr. Pittsburgh and its a valid question but this offense isn't geared for tha ttype of offense neither is Ben.

Slapstick
01-14-2013, 11:44 AM
The Pats throw their players out there and see if they can swim.....

We put our players over in the kiddie pool with the floaters on their arms.


The Pats also limit the roles of these players to do what they do well...

They don't worry about a "workhorse, bread-and-butter" RB...the put the guys they hav in situations to succeed...

They do the same on defense as well...always have since Belichick became coach...

feltdizz
01-14-2013, 12:05 PM
Only on defense. Roethlisberger got thrown into the pool. Granted, there were unusual circumstances, but thrown in the pool he certainly was.

I'm not talking about circumstances where you are forced to play a guy...

The Pats throw guys in on day one and see what they can do and if they can't handle the pressure they cut them or send them on their way the next year and replace them and do it all over again.

feltdizz
01-14-2013, 12:10 PM
The Pats also limit the roles of these players to do what they do well...

They don't worry about a "workhorse, bread-and-butter" RB...the put the guys they hav in situations to succeed...

They do the same on defense as well...always have since Belichick became coach...

a guy like Worlids wouldn't sit on the sidelines... he would be on the field rushing the QB on situational downs from day 1. Lewis, Brown, Allen would already be on the field or kicked off the field by year 2.

On offense... Rainey and Batch would have been in space on day 1 abusing LB's and nickels instead of running between the tackles.

Slapstick
01-14-2013, 12:12 PM
a guy like Worlids wouldn't sit on the sidelines... he would be on the field rushing the QB on situational downs from day 1. Lewis, Brown, Allen would already be on the field or kicked off the field by year 2.

On offense... Rainey and Batch would have been in space on day 1 abusing LB's and nickels instead of running between the tackles.

I agree...

phillyesq
01-14-2013, 12:21 PM
a guy like Worlids wouldn't sit on the sidelines... he would be on the field rushing the QB on situational downs from day 1. Lewis, Brown, Allen would already be on the field or kicked off the field by year 2.

On offense... Rainey and Batch would have been in space on day 1 abusing LB's and nickels instead of running between the tackles.

Rainey and Batch aren't nearly as talented as the Pats* running backs. Rainey was put in some situations to see if he could break a play, but he was never able to separate from defenders and went down at first contact. He's no Woodhead.

The Pats* do use situational players better than the Steelers do, and better than the rest of the league.

Everybody talks about playing rookies like it is great, but sometimes rookies need development time. Would you have trotted Adams out there on day one, or played Starks/Gilbert, a solid vet and the Steelers ROY? DeCastro was going to start before his injury. Spence likely would have seen the field before year's end.

With the Pats*, for all their accolades, they've missed on a lot of high picks. They get a lot out of guys like Ninkovich, but have had a lot of high picks that are complete busts.

bowldog
01-14-2013, 12:27 PM
Even with all the injuries we had this year we still have a championship caliber defense. It's the OFFENSE that needs to open up (have some diversity) like no-huddle more often. Even though Denver lost, you see Peyton in the no huddle with the play clock down to less than 5 seconds before they snap the ball. Ben is far more creative in that type of offense. The only problem is you can't have injuries to the line because they more than ever have to be in sync. IMO skill position players are easier to replace than linemen so load up on your linemen with multiple skillsets.

Slapstick
01-14-2013, 12:27 PM
Rainey and Batch aren't nearly as talented as the Pats* running backs. Rainey was put in some situations to see if he could break a play, but he was never able to separate from defenders and went down at first contact. He's no Woodhead.


Rainey and Batch may be as talented...we won't know for sure until they get more playing time and are not running the ball up the middle...

Yes, the Pats* have blown some top picks...that's why they seem to stockpile draft picks every year...they just throw them at the wall and see what sticks...

When it works well, like with Gronkowski and Hernandez, people take notice...

feltdizz
01-14-2013, 12:34 PM
Rainey and Batch aren't nearly as talented as the Pats* running backs. Rainey was put in some situations to see if he could break a play, but he was never able to separate from defenders and went down at first contact. He's no Woodhead.

The Pats* do use situational players better than the Steelers do, and better than the rest of the league.

Everybody talks about playing rookies like it is great, but sometimes rookies need development time. Would you have trotted Adams out there on day one, or played Starks/Gilbert, a solid vet and the Steelers ROY? DeCastro was going to start before his injury. Spence likely would have seen the field before year's end.

With the Pats*, for all their accolades, they've missed on a lot of high picks. They get a lot out of guys like Ninkovich, but have had a lot of high picks that are complete busts.

all true... except for the Woodhead thing. Rainey could do what Woodhead does if given more chances or put in more creative situations where he was designed to get the football.

No one is saying we should throw every rookie onto the field on day 1, especially at LT. Spence "would have likely" seen the field with us but on the Pats he WOULD see the field.

The Pats have missed on a lot of draft pick but they also stockpile picks like crazy, sell players high to get more picks... and aren't afraid to put a guy out there to see if he sinks or swims.

The other problem or issue I have may fall more on fans or beat writers. We kept hearing about how great Decastro would be on day 1 even though he fell. Not saying he won't get it together but maybe he fell for a reason. Same with Mendenhall and Sweed (I know, much worse).... hooray, the starts aligned.. we got some beast in the draft. Uhh... no, these guys fell because other teams saw something better or something didn't smell right. Byron Batch can paint but all I heard was how he was tearing it up in camp his rookie year and I have to admit I think these were lies or it shows how bad our eyes are when viewing talent in today's NFL. I know he was injured but the kid can't bounce outside, looks rather slow and didn't live up to my low expectations.

SidSmythe
01-14-2013, 02:08 PM
Barron Batch stuffed a 50% James Harrison in a run blocking drill and all the sudden he's the back of the future.
Then the Post-Gazette put out a story on the guys personal life (mostly his faith) which is great...you want guys like that on ur team, but that has nothing to do with talent.
I think of a guy like Josh Victorian .... he got a chance b/c of injury. But I can see the PATS taking him and making him a pretty solid player somehow. We need to do the same

phillyesq
01-14-2013, 04:00 PM
The other problem or issue I have may fall more on fans or beat writers. We kept hearing about how great Decastro would be on day 1 even though he fell. Not saying he won't get it together but maybe he fell for a reason. Same with Mendenhall and Sweed (I know, much worse).... hooray, the starts aligned.. we got some beast in the draft. Uhh... no, these guys fell because other teams saw something better or something didn't smell right. Byron Batch can paint but all I heard was how he was tearing it up in camp his rookie year and I have to admit I think these were lies or it shows how bad our eyes are when viewing talent in today's NFL. I know he was injured but the kid can't bounce outside, looks rather slow and didn't live up to my low expectations.

Re DeCastro - I think a big difference between him and Mendenhall/Sweed is that the Steelers really did their due diligence on DeCastro. Mendenhall fell into their laps and I got the sense that they did not due the ordinary diligence on him because they did not think he would be avaivable.

lloydroid
01-14-2013, 04:14 PM
Rainey and Batch may be as talented...we won't know for sure until they get more playing time and are not running the ball up the middle...

Yes, the Pats* have blown some top picks...that's why they seem to stockpile draft picks every year...they just throw them at the wall and see what sticks...

When it works well, like with Gronkowski and Hernandez, people take notice...

Well, that's what's called "being smart." They know, that no matter how much effort and time you put into evaluation of draft picks, you are never going to bat 1.000 or maybe not even .500. With that knowledge in hand, it means volume of picks is a necessity since you will have misses no matter how hard you try to avoid them. They have missed on several 1st and 2nd round picks.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/draft.htm

I'd say the hit on Jones, Hightower, Solder, Vereen (they needed him yesterday and he came through as their 3rd string RB.). Ridley (was 1st string back but got hurt), McCourty, Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Mayo....Geez, now that I look at it, they do hit on most of their early picks....like really have a high success rate. Meriweather is one of their only flops in the 1st or 2nd round. No wonder these guys are good every year.

feltdizz
01-14-2013, 04:34 PM
Re DeCastro - I think a big difference between him and Mendenhall/Sweed is that the Steelers really did their due diligence on DeCastro. Mendenhall fell into their laps and I got the sense that they did not due the ordinary diligence on him because they did not think he would be avaivable.

but my question is did other teams as well and this is why he fell to us? Just feels like every year it's "awesome.. we got a steal in the draft, he fell to us" and then 2 years later we realize why they fell.

Too early for Decastro but I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't pan out or reach the level we expected.

feltdizz
01-14-2013, 04:35 PM
Well, that's what's called "being smart." They know, that no matter how much effort and time you put into evaluation of draft picks, you are never going to bat 1.000 or maybe not even .500. With that knowledge in hand, it means volume of picks is a necessity since you will have misses no matter how hard you try to avoid them. They have missed on several 1st and 2nd round picks.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/draft.htm

I'd say the hit on Jones, Hightower, Solder, Vereen (they needed him yesterday and he came through as their 3rd string RB.). Ridley (was 1st string back but got hurt), McCourty, Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Mayo....Geez, now that I look at it, they do hit on most of their early picks....like really have a high success rate. Meriweather is one of their only flops in the 1st or 2nd round. No wonder these guys are good every year.

you tend to forget the misses because they hit so many of them out of the park.

supersteeler
01-14-2013, 04:39 PM
New England can afford to put players in and out to get playing time, they have one constant thing going on there with their O-line and Brady.
Give Ben a damn O-line that other QB'S like Brady had for years.

If you noticed we did exactly what the Pats did this year with second and third teamers, Adams, Beachum had rough starts but got better with playing time then Adams went down. Woodley was out and we had decent play from Worlids but the other side where Harrison plays not so much in Carter. Pouncey was out and Legs filled in decent, Colon was out and we moved Pouncey to LG.
It all adds up to whoever you put in has to perform, we had some success but other times not because the player isn't good enough.
Put the Patriots backs on our team and see how much they run. LOS makes everything else work, without it the best back around won't be able to have success and the best receivers won't mean much if the QB doesn't have time to throw them the ball.

Oviedo
01-14-2013, 04:52 PM
New England can afford to put players in and out to get playing time, they have one constant thing going on there with their O-line and Brady.
Give Ben a damn O-line that other QB'S like Brady had for years.

If you noticed we did exactly what the Pats did this year with second and third teamers, Adams, Beachum had rough starts but got better with playing time then Adams went down. Woodley was out and we had decent play from Worlids but the other side where Harrison plays not so much in Carter. Pouncey was out and Legs filled in decent, Colon was out and we moved Pouncey to LG.
It all adds up to whoever you put in has to perform, we had some success but other times not because the player isn't good enough.
Put the Patriots backs on our team and see how much they run. LOS makes everything else work, without it the best back around won't be able to have success and the best receivers won't mean much if the QB doesn't have time to throw them the ball.

Totally agree about the OL. I use to be one of the posters saying you didn't need high picks on the OL. Well I was totally wrong, our QB and our RBs need better OL. We need that more than a run stopping Nose Tackle or Inside LB.

Until we fix the OL we will have a meaninglessly high ranked defense that doesn't sack or intercept and we will blame the offense and whoever the offensive coord is for failed seasons.

feltdizz
01-14-2013, 05:01 PM
New England can afford to put players in and out to get playing time, they have one constant thing going on there with their O-line and Brady.
Give Ben a damn O-line that other QB'S like Brady had for years.

If you noticed we did exactly what the Pats did this year with second and third teamers, Adams, Beachum had rough starts but got better with playing time then Adams went down. Woodley was out and we had decent play from Worlids but the other side where Harrison plays not so much in Carter. Pouncey was out and Legs filled in decent, Colon was out and we moved Pouncey to LG.
It all adds up to whoever you put in has to perform, we had some success but other times not because the player isn't good enough.
Put the Patriots backs on our team and see how much they run. LOS makes everything else work, without it the best back around won't be able to have success and the best receivers won't mean much if the QB doesn't have time to throw them the ball.

Put the Patriot RB's or QB on our team and watch them cuss out the OL and threaten to kidnap their children if they don't get their $%^$ together. The expectation level is high in NE... not so much in Pittsburgh right now.

Everyone loves Ben and Tomlin because they are buddy buddy but put Brady in the huddle and watch him remind these slackers that they will be on the first thing smoking if they continue sucking balls and watch them step up. It's a job and I don't think some of our OL or teammates know it. Maybe they know we aren't playing in the offseason with infractions after watching Rainey get cut but this has to continue on the playing field.

If Woodley or Dwyer come in fat... buh bye, trade block.... step on it... get some picks and watch how the team reacts.

bowldog
01-14-2013, 05:03 PM
Since the last Patriots SB win we have been 3 times and won twice, they have been twice and lost twice. So the h*** with individual success and focus on team success, which means we haven't been diong too bad lately. I agree we need to stabalize both lines and get some pressure (speed) on the Qb. Start the offseason by letting Wallace (asking too much) go and draft his replacement early (2nd 0r 3rd).

feltdizz
01-14-2013, 05:09 PM
Since the last Patriots SB win we have been 3 times and won twice, they have been twice and lost twice. So the h*** with individual success and focus on team success, which means we haven't been diong too bad lately. I agree we need to stabalize both lines and get some pressure (speed) on the Qb. Start the offseason by letting Wallace (asking too much) go and draft his replacement early (2nd 0r 3rd).

but they have been stomping teams left and right...I don't really see how losing SB's is an "aha, we got you" moment. The Pats are head and shoulders above the league and I would love to be with them. We have 2 rings but we also didn't play them and played 2 of the most suspect SB contenders in recent history and neither was a cake walk.

Is it really too much to ask for a win by 14 points vs a quality opponent?

Oviedo
01-14-2013, 05:33 PM
but they have been stomping teams left and right...I don't really see how losing SB's is an "aha, we got you" moment. The Pats are head and shoulders above the league and I would love to be with them. We have 2 rings but we also didn't play them and played 2 of the most suspect SB contenders in recent history and neither was a cake walk.

Is it really too much to ask for a win by 14 points vs a quality opponent?

It isn't too much to ask if a team has a dominant OL. The pats OL isn't dominant but they are so much better than ours it is silly and that is why they are going to the AFC championship game. BTW same for the Ravens. They have invested in OL and that is why they can both pass and run.

phillyesq
01-14-2013, 05:36 PM
but my question is did other teams as well and this is why he fell to us? Just feels like every year it's "awesome.. we got a steal in the draft, he fell to us" and then 2 years later we realize why they fell.

Too early for Decastro but I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't pan out or reach the level we expected.

Fair point, and I get what you're saying.

DeCastro seemed to be more of a player sliding as a result of other teams reaching - there was a big run on pass rushers in the mid-late teens and early 20s.

Slapstick
01-14-2013, 06:55 PM
Yes & no. The Steelers have a long history of getting it right...

Success isn't generally about luck. It's about facing hurdles & knowing how to overcome them. The 'knowing' part is the hard part- the bit that causes the most pain- because generally to get to 'knowing' the right way- you have to learn it from doing it the wrong way.

Success comes from good decisions.
Good decisions come from experience.
Experience comes from bad decisions.

Chadman
01-14-2013, 07:01 PM
Success comes from good decisions.
Good decisions come from experience.
Experience comes from bad decisions.

Exactly! Couldn't have said it better.

tiproast
01-14-2013, 09:02 PM
I have enjoyed reading this thread - the comments, whether praise or criticism, have been fair-minded.

With respect to Belichick and his early career - I think he was doing a decent job in Cleveland, but got torpedoed by Modell and the moving of the franchise to Baltimore. That basically wiped out any chance of doing well in his final season as the coach of the Browns. That's not to say he didn't make some mistakes - he certainly didn't work well with the media, and he probably could have handled the Kosar/Testaverde QB transition better.

But as has been said here, experience, especially the experience of failure, is something that goes into learning how to succeed.

And it's not as if there aren't other great coaches and well-run franchises out there. If a team doesn't win it all, or misses the playoffs, that doesn't mean it's time to blow things up. Likewise, losing a couple of competitive Super Bowls in the last minute, or a conference championship game in a similar fashion, is not an indication of incompetence. It actually means you're competing at the highest levels of the sport - on that one day, the other team made one more play than you did.

lloydroid
01-14-2013, 09:12 PM
you tend to forget the misses because they hit so many of them out of the park.

I looked at their entire drafts of the last decade or so; they simply did draft well and have very few 1-2 round misses to speak of.

lloydroid
01-14-2013, 09:19 PM
I have enjoyed reading this thread - the comments, whether praise or criticism, have been fair-minded.

With respect to Belichick and his early career - I think he was doing a decent job in Cleveland, but got torpedoed by Modell and the moving of the franchise to Baltimore. That basically wiped out any chance of doing well in his final season as the coach of the Browns. That's not to say he didn't make some mistakes - he certainly didn't work well with the media, and he probably could have handled the Kosar/Testaverde QB transition better.

But as has been said here, experience, especially the experience of failure, is something that goes into learning how to succeed.

And it's not as if there aren't other great coaches and well-run franchises out there. If a team doesn't win it all, or misses the playoffs, that doesn't mean it's time to blow things up. Likewise, losing a couple of competitive Super Bowls in the last minute, or a conference championship game in a similar fashion, is not an indication of incompetence. It actually means you're competing at the highest levels of the sport - on that one day, the other team made one more play than you did.

Belichick had the Browns in the play offs....the _BROWNS_. That is an accomplishment in itself, so he wasn't doing so poorly. But one of his admitted mistakes while in Cleveland was he thought having a personal relationship with the players was not necessary to make a champion. He found out human beings just don't work that way. If a coach never speaks to them, other than to instruct them, players will tend to not give full effort. They want to feel like they have somewhat of a connection to the head coach and don't want to be treated as robots. Ever since the Browns gig, BB does invest some time in his relationship with the players, even though you won't see examples of it during a televised game. For instance, at their first Super Bowl, a veteran player was complaining that a rookie had a better hotel room. The old BB would have told him to shut the freak up and deal with it. The new, wiser BB threw him his own room keys and said, "I don't need a room with a kitchen in it; what the hell do I care" and switched rooms with the vet (I think it was Ty Law or Lawyer Malloy - one of those law guys.) :D

lloydroid
01-14-2013, 09:22 PM
Success comes from good decisions.
Good decisions come from experience.
Experience comes from bad decisions.

But foolish people will not learn from their mistakes. Cowher had trouble learning from his; we will see if Tomlin can.

SidSmythe
01-15-2013, 10:33 AM
Belichick had the Browns in the play offs....the _BROWNS_. That is an accomplishment in itself, so he wasn't doing so poorly. But one of his admitted mistakes while in Cleveland was he thought having a personal relationship with the players was not necessary to make a champion. He found out human beings just don't work that way. If a coach never speaks to them, other than to instruct them, players will tend to not give full effort. They want to feel like they have somewhat of a connection to the head coach and don't want to be treated as robots. Ever since the Browns gig, BB does invest some time in his relationship with the players, even though you won't see examples of it during a televised game. For instance, at their first Super Bowl, a veteran player was complaining that a rookie had a better hotel room. The old BB would have told him to shut the freak up and deal with it. The new, wiser BB threw him his own room keys and said, "I don't need a room with a kitchen in it; what the hell do I care" and switched rooms with the vet (I think it was Ty Law or Lawyer Malloy - one of those law guys.) :D

Not many players wouldn't want to play for Bellichek...not b/c he's cool. b/c he wins and yes he does interact with the guys. Did you see the football life show where he gave the players time off if a Lineman could field a Punt?? that stuff goes a long way.


But foolish people will not learn from their mistakes. Cowher had trouble learning from his; we will see if Tomlin can.

"Mistakes are a wise man's education"
Do you learn from some of ur rants??? ;)

phillyesq
01-15-2013, 12:13 PM
It isn't too much to ask if a team has a dominant OL. The pats OL isn't dominant but they are so much better than ours it is silly and that is why they are going to the AFC championship game. BTW same for the Ravens. They have invested in OL and that is why they can both pass and run.

The Texans had an offensive line that was regarded as dominant.

feltdizz
01-15-2013, 12:54 PM
Belichick had the Browns in the play offs....the _BROWNS_. That is an accomplishment in itself, so he wasn't doing so poorly. But one of his admitted mistakes while in Cleveland was he thought having a personal relationship with the players was not necessary to make a champion. He found out human beings just don't work that way. If a coach never speaks to them, other than to instruct them, players will tend to not give full effort. They want to feel like they have somewhat of a connection to the head coach and don't want to be treated as robots. Ever since the Browns gig, BB does invest some time in his relationship with the players, even though you won't see examples of it during a televised game. For instance, at their first Super Bowl, a veteran player was complaining that a rookie had a better hotel room. The old BB would have told him to shut the freak up and deal with it. The new, wiser BB threw him his own room keys and said, "I don't need a room with a kitchen in it; what the hell do I care" and switched rooms with the vet (I think it was Ty Law or Lawyer Malloy - one of those law guys.) :D

If it was Ty Law he rewarded him with a pick 6...

as far as the OL is concerned I don't think we are snake bitten or somehow drafting every bum while everyone else drafts gangster lineman. It's coaching... plain and simple. A guy like Gilbert wouldn't get away with being "hurt" every game and screwing up the chemistry just to return next week and do it all over again. Kemo wouldn't get 3 season's to whiff on every twist and Colon wouldn't get rich holding 2 times every game.

The good teams correct these problems... Billicheat would move Pouncey to guard ALL season and let Legs play center until DeCastro returned because it makes the OL better. We did it once and I applaud them but I think we should have stuck with it because it made the OL better THIS season.

NorthCoast
01-15-2013, 11:29 PM
Total number of NE starting OL starts missed this season: 2

Total number of Steeler starting OL starts missed due to injury: 27

Fix the OL.

feltdizz
01-16-2013, 12:52 AM
Total number of NE starting OL starts missed this season: 2

Total number of Steeler starting OL starts missed due to injury: 27

Fix the OL.

Thats coaching and conditioning...

tiproast
01-16-2013, 07:07 AM
Total number of NE starting OL starts missed this season: 2


This is not correct. Mankins (LG) was out for a while (he missed 6 starts). Connolly (RG) missed two, Vollmer (RT) missed one.

And Marcus Cannon is a quality replacement who can play guard and tackle. He would be starting for a lot of teams in the league.

But your main point is valid; Patriots starting o-line was much healthier than the Steelers o-line.

feltdizz
01-16-2013, 10:06 AM
This is not correct. Mankins (LG) was out for a while (he missed 6 starts). Connolly (RG) missed two, Vollmer (RT) missed one.

And Marcus Cannon is a quality replacement who can play guard and tackle. He would be starting for a lot of teams in the league.

But your main point is valid; Patriots starting o-line was much healthier than the Steelers o-line.

I would replace the word healthier with hungrier... and there is nothing better than hearing a true fan of an opposing team give accurate info.

phillyesq
01-16-2013, 10:24 AM
This is not correct. Mankins (LG) was out for a while (he missed 6 starts). Connolly (RG) missed two, Vollmer (RT) missed one.

And Marcus Cannon is a quality replacement who can play guard and tackle. He would be starting for a lot of teams in the league.

But your main point is valid; Patriots starting o-line was much healthier than the Steelers o-line.

I'll give the Pats credit on Cannon. From what I remember, he had first or second round talent but fell due to a health concern, and the Pats snagged him late with one of the picks that they stockpiled.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
01-16-2013, 10:30 AM
BB has his fingers on all aspects of Pats between the lines.
BB runs the "football" part of the Pats his way.
BB gets the most out of his players.
BB puts his players in position to use their strengths.
BB is a system scout.
BB is about discipline.
BB holds his players accountable.
BB has Tom Brady.

Did I mention I hate BB?