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Jooser
01-13-2013, 11:58 AM
OC Todd Haley Leaving Pittsburgh Steelers Could Give Ben Roethlisberger Second Chance 1 day ago by Cian Fahey (http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/author/cianfahey/)



http://rantsports.media.s3.amazonaws.com/nfl/files/2013/01/Charles-LeClaire-USA-TODAY-Sports-1.png (http://rantsports.media.s3.amazonaws.com/nfl/files/2013/01/Charles-LeClaire-USA-TODAY-Sports-1.png)Charles LeClaire-USA TODAY Sports

According to Ed Bouchette, the Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/teams/pittsburgh-steelers) may soon be in the market for a new offensive coordinator as Todd Haley interviews with the Arizona Cardinals (http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/teams/Arizona-Cardinals) for their vacant head coaching position. Haley only arrived in Pittsburgh last year, but was a head coach with Kansas City Chiefs (http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/teams/kansas-city-chiefs/) previously as well as an offensive coordinator with the Cardinals before that. Although he hasn’t appeared to endear himself to fans or his quarterback, the Steelers would likely prefer not to have to endure another coaching staff change after just one season.

Should Haley leave, the Steelers will be intent on keeping running backs coach Kirby Wilson, who has also been under consideration for potential roles elsewhere this off-season. Wilson was initially a candidate to be the offensive coordinator last season, but a house fire that hospitalized him took him out of the running. Wilson’s running backs haven’t exactly impressed during his tenure, but he was hired by Mike Tomlin in 2007, which would work in his favor. Much like the Steelers learned with Sean Kugler, it is unwise to use the performance of the player’s being coached to judge the actual work of the coach. Instead it must be clear that the man involved is a good fit in the specific role that needs filling.


If Wilson, or anyone else, is to be fit in the role of offensive coordinator for the Steelers, there are a few alterations that must be made.

Although it wasn’t completely his fault, Haley’s relationship with Ben Roethlisberger was key to the Steelers’ failings this year. Roethlisberger never appeared to buy into the Steelers’ offensive ideal. Haley was brought in to establish the running game and reign in Roethlisberger’s punishment by establishing a short passing game. Because Roethlisberger was blatantly still upset with the release of Bruce Arians, combined with the simple fact that this offense required him to be more disciplined and play an unnatural game, the Steelers never got the best out of him this year.

Not only is Roethlisberger the best offensive player the team has, he is also the best player the team has. Furthermore, as the quarterback, the franchise’s future hangs almost conclusively on what he can do. This is not the Troy Polamalu-era, nor the James Harrison-era. It’s the Ben Roethlisberger-era and the Steelers need to act accordingly. Instead of replacing Haley (presuming he leaves) with someone who can effectively implement the current scheme, the Steelers should seize this second opportunity to accept what Roethlisberger is and play to his strengths.


Under Arians he may have taken too many hits and held onto the ball too long, but he also made plenty of plays and did more than enough to help the Steelers win consistently. Roethlisberger doesn’t have pinpoint accuracy or a great ability to diagnose defenses before or after the snap, but he does have an innate ability to avoid pass rushers and hit receivers on the move. Instead of trying to box him in for his own safety, the Steelers should find an offensive coordinator who will allow him to drop into the shotgun consistently and use three wide receiver sets not to run from, but to repeatedly pass. Much like the Dallas Cowboys (http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/teams/dallas-cowboys) use Tony Romo, the Steelers need to put the ball in his hands and look for big plays instead of asking him to act like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.


Roethlisberger won two Super Bowls by being a play-making quarterback who first complemented a strong running game and then a historically good defense. Ken Whisenhunt and Bill Cowher somewhat limited his impact during his first two seasons, but since then he has never worked well with a leash holding him back. The Steelers can’t try to extend Roethlisberger’s career if that career is one of a mediocre quarterback. Three elite seasons is much more valuable than seven of what was put on show this year.



Read more at http://www.rantsports.com/nfl/2013/01/09/todd-haley-could-leave-to-give-pittsburgh-steelers-second-shot-with-ben-roethlisberger/?zRmp8q1iycImA2Zo.99

kindlecatsb'ng
01-13-2013, 12:10 PM
"It’s the Ben Roethlisberger-era and the Steelers need to act accordingly. Instead of replacing Haley (presuming he leaves) with someone who can effectively implement the current scheme, the Steelers should seize this second opportunity to accept what Roethlisberger is and play to his strengths."

Wow. I've been saying this all along.

Kindle

supersteeler
01-13-2013, 12:11 PM
Hire Randy Fichtner use the spread offense and you will see this offense flourish. Ben loves the no-huddle and in this formation he'll be in the shotgun to see the field better.
The receivers will have a better chance of getting open and we also can run out of that formation.


I say do it, spread em out and get some damn points on the board instead of this snail approach to scoring points.

Crash
01-13-2013, 12:12 PM
There is a lot of the Haley offense that does well for Ben.

But trying to rely on 3rd down Ben was the mistake.

Haley also has trouble late in games with what he calls, from plays, to formations.

Chucktownsteeler
01-13-2013, 12:56 PM
Hire Randy Fichtner use the spread offense and you will see this offense flourish. Ben loves the no-huddle and in this formation he'll be in the shotgun to see the field better.
The receivers will have a better chance of getting open and we also can run out of that formation.


I say do it, spread em out and get some damn points on the board instead of this snail approach to scoring points.

Who are you? Lakelander?

Shawn
01-13-2013, 02:50 PM
Terrible article. Ben was having the best season of his career for the first 9 games. He got injured, wife had a baby and he packed it in either mentally and/or physically. Having Ben go back to sandlot ball will be a step back. If that is the Steelers plans they had better draft a QB early.

Shawn
01-13-2013, 02:52 PM
"It’s the Ben Roethlisberger-era and the Steelers need to act accordingly. Instead of replacing Haley (presuming he leaves) with someone who can effectively implement the current scheme, the Steelers should seize this second opportunity to accept what Roethlisberger is and play to his strengths."

Wow. I've been saying this all along.

Kindle

Yes, because you should never challenge a QB to grow or improve his game.

Crash
01-13-2013, 03:29 PM
Terrible article. Ben was having the best season of his career for the first 9 games. He got injured, wife had a baby and he packed it in either mentally and/or physically. Having Ben go back to sandlot ball will be a step back. If that is the Steelers plans they had better draft a QB early.

You think he packed it in during regulation in Dallas?

His whole goal during the season was to win a ring so he could have his son on the field with him.

Shawn
01-13-2013, 03:51 PM
You think he packed it in during regulation in Dallas?

His whole goal during the season was to win a ring so he could have his son on the field with him.

Im not sure of what I witnessed. It could have been from injury, but he had two pretty good games until crunch time. Or maybe he just didn't want it bad enough. But, when Ben was counted on to win games in Ben fashion, he choked.

Crash
01-13-2013, 03:53 PM
Im not sure of what I witnessed. It could have been from injury, but he had two pretty good games until crunch time. Or maybe he just didn't want it bad enough. But, when Ben was counted on to win games in Ben fashion, he choked.

And if we use Ben in regulation rather than trying to protect our defense, those games don't get to that point.

kindlecatsb'ng
01-13-2013, 03:54 PM
Yes, because you should never challenge a QB to grow or improve his game.

That is not what I am saying--that is your interpretation or perception.

Everyone has abilities that come naturally to them, e.g.--public speaking. Those skill sets can be enhanced with further development. That is playing to a 'strength'. Eliminating or changing a weakness will that take much more deliberation, cognition, and skill enhancement to change. When it comes to crunch time, the natural inclination will be to use a strength.

A real teacher can help a person identify their natural strengths and fine tune them; help also to identify a weakness & ways to lessen, mitigate or transition into a strength.

Shawn
01-13-2013, 04:03 PM
That is not what I am saying--that is your interpretation or perception.

Everyone has abilities that come naturally to them, e.g.--public speaking. Those skill sets can be enhanced with further development. That is playing to a 'strength'. Eliminating or changing a weakness will that take much more deliberation, cognition, and skill enhancement to change. When it comes to crunch time, the natural inclination will be to use a strength.

A real teacher can help a person identify their natural strengths and fine tune them; help also to identify a weakness & ways to lessen, mitigate or transition into a strength.

I believe that to be what Haley was trying to do.

Crash
01-13-2013, 04:05 PM
Haley's offense doesn't enhance Ben. It devalues him.

7 UP
01-13-2013, 04:41 PM
Haley's offense doesn't enhance Ben. It devalues him.

Ben.....Ben Ben Ben. Haley sucks.........Ben....Ben....Ben. All the Rooney's suck. Ben....Ben....Ben.....Ben.... Hines Ward sucks... If only Ben could own coach and QB the team the steelers would be unstoppable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Manning sucks, Brady sucks, Rodgers sucks, Elways sucks. Go Ben Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!! !

Crash
01-13-2013, 04:44 PM
Ben.....Ben Ben Ben. Haley sucks.........Ben....Ben....Ben. All the Rooney's suck. Ben....Ben....Ben.....Ben.... Hines Ward sucks... If only Ben could own coach and QB the team the steelers would be unstoppable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Manning sucks, Brady sucks, Rodgers sucks, Elways sucks. Go Ben Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!! !

8-8.

Haley's great.

7 UP
01-13-2013, 04:46 PM
8-8.

Haley's great.


No No No. Haley is not great. Only Ben. Ben Ben Ben!!!!!!!!!

kindlecatsb'ng
01-13-2013, 04:51 PM
Ben.....Ben Ben Ben. Haley sucks.........Ben....Ben....Ben. All the Rooney's suck. Ben....Ben....Ben.....Ben.... Hines Ward sucks... If only Ben could own coach and QB the team the steelers would be unstoppable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Manning sucks, Brady sucks, Rodgers sucks, Elways sucks. Go Ben Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!! !


It doesn't read like you are drinking only 7-Up today. Maybe 7-Up enhanced?

Djfan
01-13-2013, 06:11 PM
Maybe the new guy can make an arrangement with Ben that he can use the no huddle a LOT more, if he agrees to use short passes a LOT more.

Chadman
01-13-2013, 07:08 PM
Haley's offense doesn't enhance Ben. It devalues him.

This is about right.

Thing is- the Haley offense isn't bad. It just doesn't suit this group of players- outside of Heath Miller.

If you are having trouble believing this to be the case- explain this: You have an all-pro QB that has made a living of moving around the pocket to make plays. He has, historically, taken a beating as a result of this, coupled with playing some less-than-stellar OL players in front of him (Mahan, Stapleton, Jonathon Scott.. need we continue?).

You have a stable of exciting young WR. The leading WR for the last 3 years is a supreme deep-threat. We have no big, physical WR that can turn a short catch into a long run, or fight through traffic.

We have a stable of average, unproven RB's outside of Mendenhall.

So, in order to succeed, the Haley offense:

Works on keeping Ben in the pocket more.

Takes away the deep route & focuses on shorter routes.

Puts more emphasis on running.


It's like the Steelers looked at the players on Offense & said "how can we work against their strengths best?". Haley can't really be blamed- it was the Offense that he was hired to bring in. It was designed to keep Ben upright more, which it did, to a degree (anyone want to argue that by putting better OL players on the field they'd achieve the same results?).

But Haley's offenses are all about timed routes, solid to spectacular running, physical WR play... essentially everything Pittsburgh doesn't do well.

Not saying Haley's offense can't be implemented. It can. It'll need a more explosive RB, a bigger WR or 2, and Ben to change his style of QB play a bit.

It can be done. It just doesn't fit the players we had last season.

But Crash is right- if it's the offense style that we value over the QB's ability- this type of Offense devalues Ben. Alex Smith could run this offense just as effectively.

May as well trade Ben for a couple of 1st round picks now...

hawaiiansteel
01-13-2013, 07:13 PM
Haley's offense doesn't enhance Ben. It devalues him.

I actually agree with this statement, it certainly doesn't take advantage of the things that Ben does best.

Sugar
01-13-2013, 08:05 PM
This article assumes much...

7 UP
01-13-2013, 08:31 PM
This is about right.

Thing is- the Haley offense isn't bad. It just doesn't suit this group of players- outside of Heath Miller.

If you are having trouble believing this to be the case- explain this: You have an all-pro QB that has made a living of moving around the pocket to make plays. He has, historically, taken a beating as a result of this, coupled with playing some less-than-stellar OL players in front of him (Mahan, Stapleton, Jonathon Scott.. need we continue?).

You have a stable of exciting young WR. The leading WR for the last 3 years is a supreme deep-threat. We have no big, physical WR that can turn a short catch into a long run, or fight through traffic.

We have a stable of average, unproven RB's outside of Mendenhall.

So, in order to succeed, the Haley offense:

Works on keeping Ben in the pocket more.

Takes away the deep route & focuses on shorter routes.

Puts more emphasis on running.


It's like the Steelers looked at the players on Offense & said "how can we work against their strengths best?". Haley can't really be blamed- it was the Offense that he was hired to bring in. It was designed to keep Ben upright more, which it did, to a degree (anyone want to argue that by putting better OL players on the field they'd achieve the same results?).

But Haley's offenses are all about timed routes, solid to spectacular running, physical WR play... essentially everything Pittsburgh doesn't do well.

Not saying Haley's offense can't be implemented. It can. It'll need a more explosive RB, a bigger WR or 2, and Ben to change his style of QB play a bit.

It can be done. It just doesn't fit the players we had last season.

But Crash is right- if it's the offense style that we value over the QB's ability- this type of Offense devalues Ben. Alex Smith could run this offense just as effectively.

May as well trade Ben for a couple of 1st round picks now...

I am going to disagree with you here. Lets go back to the middle of the season. The Steelers were 6-3, and on a 4 game winning streak, with 2 of those wins coming over eventual playoff teams and another one over the Super Bowl Champs. Ben was having one of the finest seasons of his career and was being mentioned as a possible MVP candidate. I will also mention that in those first 3 loses it was hardly the offense that was costing us games.(Den, Oak, Ten).

So what changed the entire season? To me it was the Roethlisberger injury. We went on to lose 2 of 3 without Ben. IMHO when Ben came back he was not 100% It was clear to me that while Ben could make most of the throws we are used to seeing him make, the arm strength simply wasnt there. This was evident to me especially on sideline throws.

So how do we blame Haley for not utilizing his talent? Despite a revolving door offensive line, and running back situation. And despite a disgruntled star wide receiver. This team was 6-3 and looking like a potential Super Bowl Contender.

With all the injuries and player drama we had on the offensive side of the ball, I actually think Haley did a solid job. It was the Ben injury that was the straw that broke the camels back. You say Haleys offense devalues Ben? I say for 9 games Haley got more out of Ben then any OC ever has.

Chadman
01-13-2013, 08:45 PM
With all the injuries and player drama we had on the offensive side of the ball, I actually think Haley did a solid job. It was the Ben injury that was the straw that broke the camels back. You say Haleys offense devalues Ben? I say for 9 games Haley got more out of Ben then any OC ever has.

Don't disagree that Haley did a good job. He did what he was asked to do. But this offense puts Ben back into more that 'game manager' role. Ben would likely have success in most NFL Offensive gameplans. That doesn't mean that Haley's Offense was making the best use of what was available.

7 UP
01-13-2013, 09:38 PM
Our offensive line is not capable of pass protecting long enough for us to have a consistently good deep passing attack. So how is shortening up the routes not taking advantage of our strengths? Or I guess protecting us against our weaknesses might be a better way to put it.

Shawn
01-14-2013, 12:03 AM
I am going to disagree with you here. Lets go back to the middle of the season. The Steelers were 6-3, and on a 4 game winning streak, with 2 of those wins coming over eventual playoff teams and another one over the Super Bowl Champs. Ben was having one of the finest seasons of his career and was being mentioned as a possible MVP candidate. I will also mention that in those first 3 loses it was hardly the offense that was costing us games.(Den, Oak, Ten).

So what changed the entire season? To me it was the Roethlisberger injury. We went on to lose 2 of 3 without Ben. IMHO when Ben came back he was not 100% It was clear to me that while Ben could make most of the throws we are used to seeing him make, the arm strength simply wasnt there. This was evident to me especially on sideline throws.

So how do we blame Haley for not utilizing his talent? Despite a revolving door offensive line, and running back situation. And despite a disgruntled star wide receiver. This team was 6-3 and looking like a potential Super Bowl Contender.

With all the injuries and player drama we had on the offensive side of the ball, I actually think Haley did a solid job. It was the Ben injury that was the straw that broke the camels back. You say Haleys offense devalues Ben? I say for 9 games Haley got more out of Ben then any OC ever has.

Ben was having the best season of his career, and staying upright for 9 games. Not sure why anyone would think Ben wasn't better in this system. He was better in a system he barely knew...what does that tell you? It would only get better...if Ben stays healthy.

SDSteel1
01-14-2013, 12:37 AM
Ben needs to be put in a game manager role. That's where he is successful. As soon as you put then game on him, he pretends he's Superman, and at least recently has failed in that role. Shawn and 7up have it right. We need some competition in camp to push Ben, otherwise he will continue to regress.

Eich
01-14-2013, 09:22 AM
Ben needs to be put in a game manager role. That's where he is successful. As soon as you put then game on him, he pretends he's Superman, and at least recently has failed in that role. Shawn and 7up have it right. We need some competition in camp to push Ben, otherwise he will continue to regress.

Yeah - prior to the injury against KC, he sure looked like a QB who's regressed.

Some people have a really short memory.

SDSteel1
01-14-2013, 11:23 AM
Yeah - prior to the injury against KC, he sure looked like a QB who's regressed.

Some people have a really short memory.

Read the post, he regresses when he doesn't take what's given to him. Haley's offense helped him, then he got injured and regresses back to old Ben. If he plays within the system he'll be successful, but if he plays backyard chuck it, he will continue to get worse.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-14-2013, 01:20 PM
If they want to run some run first, ball control, quick passing, game management type offense they should trade Ben for a couple first and second round picks and trade for an Alex Smith or Matt Flynn that is basically just a game manager and doesn't cost much. Load up the OL and get a stud RB. Thats the type of offense they want anyway.

SDSteel1
01-14-2013, 01:38 PM
If they want to run some run first, ball control, quick passing, game management type offense they should trade Ben for a couple first and second round picks and trade for an Alex Smith or Matt Flynn that is basically just a game manager and doesn't cost much. Load up the OL and get a stud RB. Thats the type of offense they want anyway.

The only way Ben can be successful is to be in a game manager role. He isn't consistent enough nor does he read defenses well enough to freelance all of the time. I wouldn't be adverse to trading him if I could get a young guy who can play within a system. I'm not afraid that Ben is the only guy who can get this team to a Super Bowl. We have alot of players and a coaching staff that has been there now. It isn't the holy grail that it was in the 80's and 90's. We need a good backup and he needs a chance to compete for the spot.

ikestops85
01-14-2013, 05:10 PM
People are throwing around the 'game manager' moniker like its a bad thing. Well, if you call a QB who throws short to intermediate passes in place of a running game and is successful at it a 'game manager' then I am all for Ben being a game manager. That means that Tom Brady is a game manager ... Joe Mantana was a game manager. I believe those guys have 7 super bowl victories between them. I'll take it. Ben is a great QB who has already led the team to 2 SB victories, and if he can take a little risk out of his game and still reap the rewards, then I say go for it.

The guy was having a career year until his injury and injuries to the offensive line knocked everything off course. Haley and Ben hadn't even implemented the entire offense. When all is said and done I think this offense could play both ball control through passing and go vertical.

bowldog
01-14-2013, 05:41 PM
I think the offense was iimproving as well as being balanced until Ben got hurt then we went into scramble mode and could not recover. Balance on offense is essential to winning football. When Ben got hurt the defenses knew our backups were challenged as far as passing effectively. Maybe we need to invest in a better backup QB in case this happens again.

bowldog
01-14-2013, 06:03 PM
I agree, learnin/teaching takes time and we were well on our way until the injury to Ben. Haley is ok, it just seemed like sometimes the defense knew what the play was depending on the formation.

steelz09
01-14-2013, 06:37 PM
I lost a bit of respect for BB this year. His Haley / Arians comments, expressions, etc went to far. He is supposed to be the #1 leader on this team and set the example for everyone else. He didn't do that. I thought the team and Haley needed his support and he didn't provide any.

Chadman
01-14-2013, 06:57 PM
I lost a bit of respect for BB this year. His Haley / Arians comments, expressions, etc went to far. He is supposed to be the #1 leader on this team and set the example for everyone else. He didn't do that. I thought the team and Haley needed his support and he didn't provide any.

Chadman agrees with this too. Ben didn't show enough leadership this season in that regard. No matter his feelings about the OC situation, no matter if the system suits his style best- he should have put on a stronger leadership face.

NorthCoast
01-14-2013, 07:44 PM
A scheme based on "timing" is all about pre-snap reading a defense. Which man is singled or where is the gap in the defense based on look. I am not convinced Ben is the best at this (on the other hand Tom Brady is one of the best). Therefore I am not convinced Ben will ever be a Tom Brady. On the otherhand, the playoffs present a whole other level of complexity to the QB job and it is one reason why Peyton seems to fail, whereas QBs that thrive on broken plays excel. It has been proven time and again, Peyton is great in the season, but average in the playoffs. IF Ben gets to a playoff, he can be deadly.

DBR96A
01-16-2013, 05:01 AM
A scheme based on "timing" is all about pre-snap reading a defense. Which man is singled or where is the gap in the defense based on look. I am not convinced Ben is the best at this (on the other hand Tom Brady is one of the best).

Nor are there 20 QBs who are better at it, like some Steeler fans imply. I'd say there are four at most who are, given that Roethlisberger's INT percentage is a mere 2.0% this decade.

papillon
01-16-2013, 10:46 AM
All this Ben can't read defenses, no pre-snap acumen, everyone does it better than Ben comments are nonsense.

1) You don't complete 63% of your passes without a good pre-snap read. You'll be lucky to complete 50% if, as many of you say, Ben has to wait for the receiver to be open before he throws it. Wrong, that's how the quarterbacks that become backups function, they rarely throw a ball anticipating the receiver to be open and rarely, if ever, throw a receiver open.

2) You don't have a miniscule INT ratio not being able to read defenses pre-snap or once the play is started and you see something different than you anticipated

3) You don't maintain an 8 yard YPA not being able to read a defense, a deep ball requires as much predetermination as a deep out.

4) Finally, you don't have a 93 quarterback rating if you can't tell what the defense is trying to do to you.

The number of plays that Ben makes outside the pocket aren't nearly as numerous as many believe. Typically, the plays he makes by scrambling and buying time become huge plays and you remember them, but you don't remember the 10 throws prior where Ben drops back, surveys the field, makes the throw and moves the chains, because they don't show up ESPN highlight reels.

Ben uses his ability to escape a collapsing pocket and his strength to hold off tacklers typically as a last resort. I'm not sure what many of you watch or if you simply parrot what the mediots (media idiots) try to propose as fact. Sometimes a receiver doesn't get open, sometimes Ben misses an open receiver, and sometimes Ben simply makes a bad throw (see Dallas and Cincy II this year) that doesn't mean that Ben can't read the defense, get a good pre-snap read, etc, it means he made a mistake.

You just don't put up the wins and the numbers that Ben does being an average to below average quarterback in this league as many seem to believe.

Just for comparison sake, the two best quarterbacks of the modern era have quarterback ratings of 95 and 96 and completion percentages of 65 and 63, so Ben compares quite favorably to Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. The difference is the way each quarterback goes about playing the position. Everyone looks at Ben's big plays outside the pocket and thinks that's all he does as compared to the classic drop back and throw styles of Brady and Manning.

Instead of belaboring this years second half failings (for whatever reason), off field issues from 4 or 5 years ago and the fact the Ben plays quarterback a bit differently than others, watch a game more closely and see how many throws come out of Ben's hand on time and accurately. If I were the offensive coordinator of this team, I'd hand Ben the d@mn playbook, put together a game plan each week, go over specific things during the week about down and distance and circumstance during practice and then let Ben go and call the game as he sees fit and provide insight on the sideline between drives. Trying to force him to do this and that isn't a recipe for success, Ben has been around football at a high level and understands the game better than all of us armchair OCs could ever imagine.

Pappy