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View Full Version : Could swithcing to a 4-3 really fix this much?



lloydroid
01-10-2013, 04:54 PM
Just think about it.

Switching to a 4-3 could accomplish the following.

1. Saying good bye to Dick. He's been a fantastic Steeler. But nothing lasts forever. I know it's cute to say "he's in his 70s but shows no sign of slowing down." Well, he's in his 70s. People retire for a reason. Let him go gracefully. His "zone blitz schemes" are no longer "exotic" or "confusing." They once were. And horses were once the best way to get around. Teams are fully aware of where blitzers are coming from. There is nothing so super tricky about his system anymore, and as many have stated here, the fact that it takes players so long to learn the system is no longer acceptable or sustainable. We need to draft players who will be playing the position they have learned all their lives. Teams that succeed today can quickly use their draft picks to contribute. Look at the Colts: from 2-14 to a play off team.

2. If we switched, we would reduce the amount of holes in the D. All of a sudden, MLB would not be such a concern. Timmons would be the man, period. We'd have Harrison and Worilds (who far outperformed Woodley any way) at OLB and then we could let fat boy play DE and stay at his fat pants weight.

3. We would put together a DL of Woodley, Heyward, Hood, McClendon, Woods, T'Amu and a few draft picks. I think it could be fine with that mix of players, using the platoon method, keeping everyone fresh.

4. It would simplify the entire thing, so young players could play immediately. Simple is good. Simple is underrated. To the DL: You guys rush the passer and chase the ball carrier. To the LBs: You guys chase the ball, cover TEs and blitz sometimes. To the CBs: You guys cover receivers. To the safeties: You guys don't let anyone get behind you and help in rush support. It can be that simple. The people telling us it isn't just do so to make them feel smarter.

5. Tomlin knows the Tampa 2. It's very effective. Use it.

6. This would dovetail with this draft class. There are tons of good DL there for the taking. Jon Hankins, DT, OSU; Jon Jenkins, DT, GA; Sheldon Richardson, DT, MI; Sharrif Floyd, DT, UF; Sam Montgomery, DE, LSU; Ezekiel Ansah, DE, BYU; Jackson Jeffcoat, DE, TX; John Simon, DE, OSU.

This really makes the most sense. Will Rooney wake up and make it happen? The 3-4 is no longer the surprise in the punch bowl. Many teams run it and our once-advantage of stealing smallish DEs to make them OLBs no longer exists. So adapt!

Crash
01-10-2013, 05:03 PM
LeBeau isn't leaving. Rooney won't do it and Tomlin won't either.

lloydroid
01-10-2013, 05:13 PM
LeBeau isn't leaving. Rooney won't do it and Tomlin won't either.

It isn't up to Tomlin, even though they pretend it is. That is just a lie. Even Dick said, "I'll be back if coach Tomlin wants me." That is just a lie. If Tomlin chose his coaches, BA would still be here.

Crash
01-10-2013, 05:18 PM
Art won't do it. He doesn't like bad PR on himself.

He also apparently doesn't like not getting enough nachos on his plate either.

SteelBucks
01-10-2013, 05:26 PM
Three guarantees in life: death, taxes and 4-3 discussions in the offseason.

lloydroid
01-10-2013, 05:34 PM
Three guarantees in life: death, taxes and 4-3 discussions in the offseason.

But in all the off-seasons it's been discussed, it is more relative now more than ever, due to all the aforementioned conditions.

Oviedo
01-10-2013, 05:36 PM
Just think about it.

Switching to a 4-3 could accomplish the following.

1. Saying good bye to Dick. He's been a fantastic Steeler. But nothing lasts forever. I know it's cute to say "he's in his 70s but shows no sign of slowing down." Well, he's in his 70s. People retire for a reason. Let him go gracefully. His "zone blitz schemes" are no longer "exotic" or "confusing." They once were. And horses were once the best way to get around. Teams are fully aware of where blitzers are coming from. There is nothing so super tricky about his system anymore, and as many have stated here, the fact that it takes players so long to learn the system is no longer acceptable or sustainable. We need to draft players who will be playing the position they have learned all their lives. Teams that succeed today can quickly use their draft picks to contribute. Look at the Colts: from 2-14 to a play off team.

2. If we switched, we would reduce the amount of holes in the D. All of a sudden, MLB would not be such a concern. Timmons would be the man, period. We'd have Harrison and Worilds (who far outperformed Woodley any way) at OLB and then we could let fat boy play DE and stay at his fat pants weight.

3. We would put together a DL of Woodley, Heyward, Hood, McClendon, Woods, T'Amu and a few draft picks. I think it could be fine with that mix of players, using the platoon method, keeping everyone fresh.

4. It would simplify the entire thing, so young players could play immediately. Simple is good. Simple is underrated. To the DL: You guys rush the passer and chase the ball carrier. To the LBs: You guys chase the ball, cover TEs and blitz sometimes. To the CBs: You guys cover receivers. To the safeties: You guys don't let anyone get behind you and help in rush support. It can be that simple. The people telling us it isn't just do so to make them feel smarter.

5. Tomlin knows the Tampa 2. It's very effective. Use it.

6. This would dovetail with this draft class. There are tons of good DL there for the taking. Jon Hankins, DT, OSU; Jon Jenkins, DT, GA; Sheldon Richardson, DT, MI; Sharrif Floyd, DT, UF; Sam Montgomery, DE, LSU; Ezekiel Ansah, DE, BYU; Jackson Jeffcoat, DE, TX; John Simon, DE, OSU.

This really makes the most sense. Will Rooney wake up and make it happen? The 3-4 is no longer the surprise in the punch bowl. Many teams run it and our once-advantage of stealing smallish DEs to make them OLBs no longer exists. So adapt!

All good points I have been stating for going on three years. My primary point for making the switch is that you broaden the potential talent pool that you can dip into. That is vital in an area of a salary cap where could want to restock certain positions and get contributions faster by having players play the positions they have always played and the ones you scouted them playing when you made your talent assessment. It also would help keeping you out of cap situations like we find ourselves because you are forced to retain players longer because of the investment in learning the defense and knowing it.

I also think our continued decreasing sack numbers and INT numbers indicate that the scheme isn't working to produce the results it was always praised for being able to produce in the past. Think that will change with the same cast doing the same things next year?

Change won't happen though because LeBeau is the "tenured college porfessor" who will stay as long as he wants even if he is teaching out of an outdated textbook and doesn't do leading edge research anymore.

lloydroid
01-10-2013, 06:07 PM
All good points I have been stating for going on three years. My primary point for making the switch is that you broaden the potential talent pool that you can dip into. That is vital in an area of a salary cap where could want to restock certain positions and get contributions faster by having players play the positions they have always played and the ones you scouted them playing when you made your talent assessment. It also would help keeping you out of cap situations like we find ourselves because you are forced to retain players longer because of the investment in learning the defense and knowing it.

I also think our continued decreasing sack numbers and INT numbers indicate that the scheme isn't working to produce the results it was always praised for being able to produce in the past. Think that will change with the same cast doing the same things next year?

Change won't happen though because LeBeau is the "tenured college porfessor" who will stay as long as he wants even if he is teaching out of an outdated textbook and doesn't do leading edge research anymore.

I'm sad to say, you are right about everything, including the last point, which is depressing. I am so sick of the talking heads saying, "Pgh is slow to change, and they have the results to prove their patience pays off." Well, that is only true to a point. I am sure the last maker of horse carriages did a bang up job, but that doesn't mean they were wise to stay making horse buggies for as long as they did. Too much of a good thing can end up being bad. Pgh's slow mode to change has served them well, but that doesn't make slow change bullet proof.

It's not always a good thing.

Sometime change is needed.

I really think going to a 4-3 would solve many problems at this point.

I think the D-linemen we are kind of sour on would actually thrive in a 4-3. I really think a DL of Woodley, Hood, McClendon, T'amu (if he's not in jail), Heyward, Woods and a few rookies could get us off to a good start. Not saying that DL would be instantly a top DL in the league, but it would be good enough to win. And I think getting fat boy at DE and Worilds to the starter at OLB with Harrison, and Timmons in the middle, would do fine. We could go from being thin to having depth.

I am sick of our team having to work miracles in terms of making over players to fit into our system. How many LBs have we swung and missed on to fit as OLB in our system? How hard is it to develop DLmen? It seems almost impossible. Here we have Hood and Heyward who were blue chip prospects, seemingly sucking, according to most of you. We have McClendon, seemingly being a beast, and yet, he barely even sees the field. Something is wrong.

They need to wake up and realize Dick's system is no longer super leading-edge, complex (well, it still might be complex, in a bad way), confusing to the opposition, etc.

blitz71burgh71
01-10-2013, 06:08 PM
How could the D rank #1 4 out of the past 6 year's or something like that if every one know's this Defence so well.
Colt's D ranked 26th Steelers ranked 1
Colt's O ranked 10 Steelers ranked 21

To blame Dick LeBeau is foolish when it was clearly the o's fault.

phillyesq
01-10-2013, 06:13 PM
What Ovi omits, of course, is that there is no empirical evidence (nor even annecdotal evidence) suggesting that teams that play a 4-3 get more of a contribution from young players. Likewise, there is no support for the proposition that it is easier to evaluate and stock lineman in a 4-3 because of the conversion. Just look at the number of defensive ends and defensive tackles drafted in the first round that flop annually. Finally, when mentioning the salary cap, omitted is that defensive ends have the highest franchise tag number after quarterbacks. This is because there is a very limited supply of elite 4-3 DEs - they are rare.

Crash
01-10-2013, 06:14 PM
How could the D rank #1 4 out of the past 6 year's or something like that if every one know's this Defence so well.

Where did the offense rank in time of possession?

Chadman
01-10-2013, 06:20 PM
Ok- consider Chadman to be dumb- but why will the 4-3 work better than the 3-4, exactly?

blitz71burgh71
01-10-2013, 06:22 PM
The O ranked #1 in Time of Possession
points per game 22

phillyesq
01-10-2013, 06:22 PM
I think the D-linemen we are kind of sour on would actually thrive in a 4-3. I really think a DL of Woodley, Hood, McClendon, T'amu (if he's not in jail), Heyward, Woods and a few rookies could get us off to a good start. Not saying that DL would be instantly a top DL in the league, but it would be good enough to win. And I think getting fat boy at DE and Worilds to the starter at OLB with Harrison, and Timmons in the middle, would do fine. We could go from being thin to having depth.


Worilds we be a DE in a 4-3 and Harrison (if he returns) is better suited in a 3-4. Timmons profiles best as a OLB in a 4-3, leaving the Steelers with holes at 2 linebacker spots. You need a lot more at DE than Worilds/Woodley, and I cannot fathom why you would be a defense that features Ziggy Hood, Cam Heyward, Al Woods, a guy on the practice squad and Steve McClendon.

steelfin
01-10-2013, 06:23 PM
I am certain that switching to the 4-3 will fix the offense....

We absolutely should make the switch.

Crash
01-10-2013, 06:25 PM
The O ranked #1 in Time of Possession
points per game 22

And when they rank 20th in starting field position, and near the bottom in turnovers forced? You aren't going to score 30 points a game.

Simply takes too much time off the clock when you go 75-80 for the majority of the points you score.

bowldog
01-10-2013, 06:30 PM
We had #1 D in yards and #5 in scoring D. Defense overall was not the problem. Offensive inconsistency is the problem.CHALLENGE - we had 8 losses this season Can we think of no more than 8 plays/incidents that could have turned 4 of those losses into wins?

phillyesq
01-10-2013, 06:31 PM
And when they rank 20th in starting field position, and near the bottom in turnovers forced? You aren't going to score 30 points a game.

Simply takes too much time off the clock when you go 75-80 for the majority of the points you score.

A lot of the blame for field position rests with the special teams. The penalties from that unit often left the Steelers with bad field position.

Crash
01-10-2013, 06:34 PM
Yep. That too. And giving up a first down then getting a punt, followed by the penalty.

Fantasy football has killed football logic.

blitz71burgh71
01-10-2013, 06:34 PM
And the Patriots were less then 2 min's in top behind Steelers but scored over 30 points a game

Crash
01-10-2013, 06:34 PM
We had #1 D in yards and #5 in scoring D. Defense overall was not the problem. Offensive inconsistency is the problem.CHALLENGE - we had 8 losses this season Can we think of no more than 8 plays/incidents that could have turned 4 of those losses into wins?

Not blowing 4th quarter leads on defense would be nice.

Not getting shredded by jokes like Carson Palmer and Matt Hasselbeck comes to mind.

Oviedo
01-10-2013, 06:42 PM
How could the D rank #1 4 out of the past 6 year's or something like that if every one know's this Defence so well.
Colt's D ranked 26th Steelers ranked 1
Colt's O ranked 10 Steelers ranked 21

To blame Dick LeBeau is foolish when it was clearly the o's fault.

Which is why I'm sure you will fully support that we heavily invest in the offense in the upcoming draft. Typically those that blame the offense are the same ones who will say we need to draft Nose Tackles, Safeties and Inside Linebackers early in the draft.

supersteeler
01-10-2013, 06:44 PM
Yep, the scope is out on the Steelers, people looking for another way for them to be better.
I have no issue with the 3-4, its been good for the Steelers for years and still is.

1. Get Healthy *



2. Good off season conditioning program



3. Replace deadwood



4. Let Omar do his miracle work in contracts *




5. Add some young talent via the draft





6. Convert Casey Hampton to FB.....jk


A healthy and conditioned Lamar Woodley could help our front seven, if we keep JH, and combine that with a dominate NT, this defense will be even better.

4-3 ? Na, Lets fix the inability of our offense to score *points or enough, then maybe we see some daylight.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 06:44 PM
Not blowing 4th quarter leads on defense would be nice.

Not getting shredded by jokes like Carson Palmer and Matt Hasselbeck comes to mind.

Not getting shredded by these types of QB's & playing 3-4 vs 4-3 have little to do with eachother, though, right?

Crash
01-10-2013, 06:51 PM
Who knows. I think the 4th quarter scheme stinks.

So if they switch to a 4-3, maybe they have to switch schemes in the 4th as well.

But I like the 3-4, when we use it, instead playing this passive crap we've been playing for two years.

phillyesq
01-10-2013, 06:54 PM
Which is why I'm sure you will fully support that we heavily invest in the offense in the upcoming draft. Typically those that blame the offense are the same ones who will say we need to draft Nose Tackles, Safeties and Inside Linebackers early in the draft.

In the past few drafts, the Steelers premium picks (top 3 rounds) have skewed towards offense - 6 of 9 have been on offense.

Regardless of the front you want, the Steelers need youth at LB and S. I wouldn't draft a NT in the first round. For starters, Hampton played fewer snaps than the third CB this year.

On the offensive side, if Wallace leaves, the Steelers will need help at WR and they could use an addition to the backfield regardless of what happens with Mendenhall.

Plenty of room to improve on both sides of the ball.

SteelBucks
01-10-2013, 07:08 PM
Not getting shredded by these types of QB's & playing 3-4 vs 4-3 have little to do with eachother, though, right?

Drafting and signing better CB's/DB's would be a novel approach.

lloydroid
01-10-2013, 07:23 PM
Ok- consider Chadman to be dumb- but why will the 4-3 work better than the 3-4, exactly?

I give specific details in the original post. Please read.

lloydroid
01-10-2013, 07:27 PM
Yep, the scope is out on the Steelers, people looking for another way for them to be better.
I have no issue with the 3-4, its been good for the Steelers for years and still is.

1. Get Healthy *



2. Good off season conditioning program



3. Replace deadwood



4. Let Omar do his miracle work in contracts *




5. Add some young talent via the draft





6. Convert Casey Hampton to FB.....jk


A healthy and conditioned Lamar Woodley could help our front seven, if we keep JH, and combine that with a dominate NT, this defense will be even better.

4-3 ? Na, Lets fix the inability of our offense to score *points or enough, then maybe we see some daylight.

The remaining problem with our system is it takes forever to get defenders up to speed - pretty much every position takes 2 years before players seem to get it, or, at least, the coaches feel that way as young guys don't get to play for 2 years after they are drafted. That sucks. And look at players like Woodley - although once productive, his body breaks down now, every year, from having to try to cover people. It's a waste of time, just let him rush the Gad Damn QB.

lloydroid
01-10-2013, 07:34 PM
Who knows. I think the 4th quarter scheme stinks.

So if they switch to a 4-3, maybe they have to switch schemes in the 4th as well.

But I like the 3-4, when we use it, instead playing this passive crap we've been playing for two years.

It doesn't seem to matter if we play passive or not; when we do send in blitzers they don't get any pressure any how, so what's the difference? Sending more people to rush that do not get any pressure is counter-productive. It just means less people to cover while still not getting any pressure. It's broken.

supersteeler
01-10-2013, 07:36 PM
The remaining problem with our system is it takes forever to get defenders up to speed - pretty much every position takes 2 years before players seem to get it, or, at least, the coaches feel that way as young guys don't get to play for 2 years after they are drafted. That sucks. And look at players like Woodley - although once productive, his body breaks down now, every year, from having to try to cover people. It's a waste of time, just let him rush the Gad Damn QB.

You make a valid point about our system on defense. It does take time to get it down, even the great Polamalu had a difficult time his rookie season. On the other hand I don't think we scrap a system because of it difficulty, its worked out well for years.
We use our LB's quite a bit in pass coverage, and I agree Woodley would be better suited to just rush the passer, but the system doesn't work that way. Lamar would be better served to get healthy@100% and cut some weight down so he can do the things they want.

SteelCrazy
01-10-2013, 07:39 PM
Yeah, I'm sick and tired! Sick and tired of having the best Defense in the NFL every season. The short comings of the Offense can be over come if we change to a 4-3 D and become a top 25 D instead of a top 3. The Defense is holding the Offense back by being so good. Do the Rooney's like to sleep at the wheel year after year and continue to run this organization into the ground? Someone slap somebody, because this Browns tier team is really making me sick!

lloydroid
01-10-2013, 08:40 PM
You make a valid point about our system on defense. It does take time to get it down, even the great Polamalu had a difficult time his rookie season. On the other hand I don't think we scrap a system because of it difficulty, its worked out well for years.
We use our LB's quite a bit in pass coverage, and I agree Woodley would be better suited to just rush the passer, but the system doesn't work that way. Lamar would be better served to get healthy@100% and cut some weight down so he can do the things they want.

I don't disagree that Woodley should apply some damn discipline and mix in some salads to his diet. But just because the system has "served us well in the past" is no reason to assume it's the right path for the future. For instance, we used to have the "picks of the litter" of guys who we could convert to OLBs coming out of the draft. But now, there is far more competition, as so many other teams run 3-4s. So, we no longer can draft pure gems in the 3rd and 4th round as we once could. We now have 15 other teams trying to do the same thing. I am not even 100% sold that switching to 4-3 is our best option, but I hope the team at least considers it. And, and those who said Harrison is not suited for a LB in a 4-3, I say poppycock; he'd serve well as a LB in any system ever conceived on this earth, if he is healthy. That dude would dominate in any system ever conceived by man or space alien.

lloydroid
01-10-2013, 08:41 PM
Yeah, I'm sick and tired! Sick and tired of having the best Defense in the NFL every season. The short comings of the Offense can be over come if we change to a 4-3 D and become a top 25 D instead of a top 3. The Defense is holding the Offense back by being so good. Do the Rooney's like to sleep at the wheel year after year and continue to run this organization into the ground? Someone slap somebody, because this Browns tier team is really making me sick!

It's not truly the best D, if we are being honest with ourselves. It is good, but there are 5 others I would take right now over Pgh's D.

Slapstick
01-10-2013, 08:49 PM
It's not truly the best D, if we are being honest with ourselves. It is good, but there are 5 others I would take right now over Pgh's D.

But switching to a 4-3 would fix that?

RuthlessBurgher
01-10-2013, 08:57 PM
And, and those who said Harrison is not suited for a LB in a 4-3, I say poppycock; he'd serve well as a LB in any system ever conceived on this earth, if he is healthy. That dude would dominate in any system ever conceived by man or space alien.

You don't take a guy who turns 35 this offseason and have him play a position he never played before (with an eight-figure cap hit, I might add). Worilds is the furthest thing from a 4-3 OLB (he'd be a DE in that scheme for sure). Timmons would be a Derrick Brooks like OLB in the 4-3, not an MLB. That means you need an MLB and another OLB. You've seen Hood, Heyward, McLendon, Woods, etc. attempting to rush the passer from a 4 man line in nickel and dime defenses (they aren't charged with simply occupying blockers in specialty defense on passing downs)...how effective have they been at this task? Enough to trust them to rush the passer full time in the nickel, dime, and base 4-3? Attempting to switch to a new defensive scheme when we are already pressed up against the cap is foolhardy at best.

lloydroid
01-10-2013, 08:58 PM
But switching to a 4-3 would fix that?

It could. There is just something missing with this current version of Dick's D. The lame no pressure on the QB and the non-existent turn overs are a problem. I am sick of the "super complicated" D and long for a D where players no what their assignments are without needing to learn Einstein's theory of relativity. I honestly think a DL of Woodley, Hood, Heyward, McClendon, Woods, etc. plus a rookie could do better at getting pressure on the QB than our current system does. All I see now is our LBs being stood up (or in Harrison's case, wrapped around the head and neck) trying to fight through players who outweigh them by 100 pounds.

birtikidis
01-10-2013, 09:14 PM
Not blowing 4th quarter leads on defense would be nice.

Not getting shredded by jokes like Carson Palmer and Matt Hasselbeck comes to mind.
Jokes like Carson Palmer and Matt Hasselback should never be in the game because the OFFENSE should score a ton of points against teams that have such terrible defenses. How we score less than 30 on the titans, raiders and other mentally challenged teams blows my mind.
But the reality is that ALL THREE fazes of the game have consistency issues. With offense it's scoring in the redzone and turnovers. Special teams penalties kills us. I feel like we should NEVER return a punt or kick because we have a much higher chance of a penalty than a good return. On defense it's forcing turnovers. When you rank in the top 10 in points allowed, then guess what, giving up fourth quarter touchdowns shouldn't be a problem IF your offense can score.

lloydroid
01-10-2013, 09:14 PM
You don't take a guy who turns 35 this offseason and have him play a position he never played before (with an eight-figure cap hit, I might add). Worilds is the furthest thing from a 4-3 OLB (he'd be a DE in that scheme for sure). Timmons would be a Derrick Brooks like OLB in the 4-3, not an MLB. That means you need an MLB and another OLB. You've seen Hood, Heyward, McLendon, Woods, etc. attempting to rush the passer from a 4 man line in nickel and dime defenses (they aren't charged with simply occupying blockers in specialty defense on passing downs)...how effective have they been at this task? Enough to trust them to rush the passer full time in the nickel, dime, and base 4-3? Attempting to switch to a new defensive scheme when we are already pressed up against the cap is foolhardy at best.

OK, so let's just fold our arms and give up and do nothing.

Crash
01-10-2013, 09:18 PM
Jokes like Carson Palmer and Matt Hasselback should never be in the game because the OFFENSE should score a ton of points against teams that have such terrible defenses. How we score less than 30 on the titans, raiders and other mentally challenged teams blows my mind.
But the reality is that ALL THREE fazes of the game have consistency issues. With offense it's scoring in the redzone and turnovers. Special teams penalties kills us. I feel like we should NEVER return a punt or kick because we have a much higher chance of a penalty than a good return. On defense it's forcing turnovers. When you rank in the top 10 in points allowed, then guess what, giving up fourth quarter touchdowns shouldn't be a problem IF your offense can score.

Um, we scored 31 in Oakland.

Still lost.

papillon
01-10-2013, 11:23 PM
Um, we scored 31 in Oakland.

Still lost.

And in two of the biggest games of the year Ravens I and Bengals II the defense didn't concede a touchdown, still lost.
Can't compare losing to Ravens and Bengals when the defense doesn't give up a TD to losing to the Raiders.

Not only did the defense not give up a TD, but the offense gave one to the Bengals.

Pappy

fordfixer
01-10-2013, 11:30 PM
And in two of the biggest games of the year Ravens I and Bengals II the defense didn't concede a touchdown, still lost.
Can't compare losing to Ravens and Bengals when the defense doesn't give up a TD to losing to the Raiders.

Not only did the defense not give up a TD, but the offense gave one to the Bengals.

Pappy
Won't work for his agenda so those stats don't count.

birtikidis
01-10-2013, 11:43 PM
Um, we scored 31 in Oakland.

Still lost.
and our offense turned the ball over twice. Once on our own 30. Anytime you lose the turnover battle, you're likely to lose the game.

Crash
01-10-2013, 11:53 PM
Can't compare losing to Ravens and Bengals when the defense doesn't give up a TD to losing to the Raiders.

We lost to the Ravens with our #2 QB, and without Antonio Brown. Let's be consistent now, the defense isn't the only unit who has injuries here.

We lost to the Bengals who made the playoffs when the O struggled

The defense was absolutely DESTROYED by Carson Palmer, who does NOTHING anymore except when it's garbage time. He's been a joke since his 2009 return.

And yet he always seems to play well against this defense.

Crash
01-10-2013, 11:55 PM
and our offense turned the ball over twice. Once on our own 30. Anytime you lose the turnover battle, you're likely to lose the game.

Actually what lost that game was THREE TIMES the offense scored touchdowns.

And THREE TIMES the defense gave a TD right back.

Make one stop, of the three, and they win.

bowldog
01-11-2013, 12:22 AM
Really, what was different about this season compared to others. Defense better than average, offense was average, injuries you can't control.

ANSWER = TURNOVERS, TURNOVERS AND MORE TURNOVERS

Crash
01-11-2013, 12:29 AM
The turnovers are skewed.

How many turnovers in games with Batch and Leftwich?

Turnovers didn't make the Steelers defense give back points after Ben's offense scored.

Turnovers didn't make the Steelers defense blow 4th quarter leads at Denver (as I predicted in the summer they would), Oakland, and Tennessee.

The Steelers offense handed the defense TWO 10 point leads in Oakland.

And each time the defense went right back on the field, and gave up a touchdown to a washed up Carson Palmer.

Slapstick
01-11-2013, 07:20 AM
When the Steelers give up big plays on defense or special teams and/or turn the ball over, they lose...period...

@ Oakland: turned the ball over twice (once on the 30 as previously stated) and gave up a long run to McFadden...

@ Tennessee: gave up a punt block that gave Tennessee the ball on the Pittsburgh one yard line...

Ravens @ Pittsburgh: gave up a punt return for TD

@ Cleveland: turned the ball over 8 times

@ Dallas: special teams turned the ball over at midfield, threw INT in OT that put Dallas into FG range

Bengals @ Pittsburgh: threw pick 6

The thing is, the defense improved over the course of the season...not good early, much better down the stretch...

The offense and special teams were prone to costly turnovers and got worse as the season progressed...

Crash
01-11-2013, 01:26 PM
Go give back points don't matter? How many times did it happen when they started 2-3 Slap? 10? 12?

Pretty sad when I know LeBeau's weaknesses on defense better than he does.

Even sadder is when fans ignore it and look at their "rank".

Like I said, three times they scored TDs in Oakland. Three times the defense gave a TD right back.

There's your game right there. Period.

Jigawatts
01-11-2013, 01:48 PM
You want to know how to solve the defense?

Invest in a juggs machine.

At practice, load this machine with footballs and point it in the direction of the defense.

Crash
01-11-2013, 01:50 PM
They can't pick off passes playing 8 yards off on 3rd and 5.

"Tackle the catch"

Jigawatts
01-11-2013, 02:03 PM
They can't pick off passes when the ball hits them in the hands.

papillon
01-11-2013, 02:34 PM
We lost to the Ravens with our #2 QB, and without Antonio Brown. Let's be consistent now, the defense isn't the only unit who has injuries here.

We lost to the Bengals who made the playoffs when the O struggled

The defense was absolutely DESTROYED by Carson Palmer, who does NOTHING anymore except when it's garbage time. He's been a joke since his 2009 return.

And yet he always seems to play well against this defense.


[/COLOR]

I didn't mention injuries in any of my comments about the defense or offense, simply saying that the offense shoulders blame as well as the defense all year. The beginning of the year the defense was bad and offense was consistent, but not great. The second half of the year the offense was bad and the defense was consistent and at times good. What was bad all year were the special teams and they cost the Steelers at least one game and possibly two.

Ben had brain cramps at bad times, Woodley never showed up, Harrison tried playing himself into condition it took a long time, Miller, Timmons and Clark were good all year, Foote was consistent for the most part and sometimes bad, the offensive line was juggled all year, but managed to keep Ben clean for the most part. The single most detrimental element to the 2012 Steelers were the special teams. With average to above average STs the Steelers make the playoffs.

Pappy

Crash
01-11-2013, 02:44 PM
I didn't mention injuries in any of my comments about the defense or offense, simply saying that the offense shoulders blame as well as the defense all year.

Absolutely.

But most only remember the 2nd Bengals game. The defense as usual, gets their free pass and sob stories.

Oviedo
01-11-2013, 02:45 PM
I didn't mention injuries in any of my comments about the defense or offense, simply saying that the offense shoulders blame as well as the defense all year. The beginning of the year the defense was bad and offense was consistent, but not great. The second half of the year the offense was bad and the defense was consistent and at times good. What was bad all year were the special teams and they cost the Steelers at least one game and possibly two.

Ben had brain cramps at bad times, Woodley never showed up, Harrison tried playing himself into condition it took a long time, Miller, Timmons and Clark were good all year, Foote was consistent for the most part and sometimes bad, the offensive line was juggled all year, but managed to keep Ben clean for the most part. The single most detrimental element to the 2012 Steelers were the special teams. With average to above average STs the Steelers make the playoffs.

Pappy


I think you underestimate how the OL injuries and juggling hurt the running game. Everyone may hate hearing it but until we fix the OL we won't ever be better. Simply looking at where a player was drafted isn't a fix because it is what is happening on the field.

Crash
01-11-2013, 02:46 PM
I don't think the OL is that bad.

It's the situations they are put in that kills them.

steelfin
01-11-2013, 03:07 PM
I don't think the OL is that bad.

It's the situations they are put in that kills them.


Do you mean those situations when they are required to block?

Crash
01-11-2013, 03:12 PM
Do you mean those situations when they are required to block?

When it's 2nd and 1 and we have the RB lined up 8 1/2 yards behind the LOS? It's not going to be hard to stop, especially when we run about 95% of our run plays between the tackles.

By the time the back gets to the LOS any hole that was open is already closed.

Too long developing running plays. Not enough pitches, and not enough runs outside the tackles to keep defenses honest.

Oviedo
01-11-2013, 03:21 PM
I don't think the OL is that bad.

It's the situations they are put in that kills them.


You need an eye exam. We generate no push in short yardage and are inconsistent with run blocking and pass blocking on about 50% of the plays.

Mister Pittsburgh
01-11-2013, 04:06 PM
If Tomlin ever planned to switch, the time is now.

lloydroid
01-11-2013, 04:13 PM
Absolutely.

But most only remember the 2nd Bengals game. The defense as usual, gets their free pass and sob stories. [/COLOR]

When your defense only gives up 6 points and losses, I am kind of thinking they deserve a free pass. Ben threw a 6 pic and the other FG happened from another pic as well. Bonehead Ben lost that game. He was horrible - just careless and moronic. Thanks Bonehead Ben.

papillon
01-11-2013, 04:14 PM
Absolutely.

But most only remember the 2nd Bengals game. The defense as usual, gets their free pass and sob stories. [/COLOR]

We were discussing how the Raiders lit up the defense and I mentioned that there were games that the defense showed up and the offense didn't. Nothing to do with only the 2nd Bengals game except for the fact the defense conceded no TDs in that one and the offense didn't hold up its end as well as it should have.

Same as in the Raiders game the defense didn't show up and the offense shouldered the load. I guess what I'm saying is that for 16 games this past year the offense and defense rarely showed up and played to the level in which they are capable except for a few, Giants, Bengals I, Eagles and Jets are probably the only games that both sides of the ball played up to snuff in the same game.

Ben wasn't perfect, Lebeau's defense wasn't perfect, special teams were atrocious and the coaching decisions were questionable at times; it led to an 8-8 season and Steeler fans lamenting about a season that had good promise at the halfway point.

Pappy

lloydroid
01-11-2013, 04:15 PM
Do you mean those situations when they are required to block?

Yea, THOSE situations. How can you blame the OL when they are asked to rush or pass block? That is crazy talk. I thought their job was to just stand there.

Crash
01-11-2013, 04:16 PM
You need an eye exam. We generate no push in short yardage and are inconsistent with run blocking and pass blocking on about 50% of the plays.

But like I said though, how many short yardage runs have the back 8 1/2 yards behind the LOS at the snap?

That's too long for short yardage play to develop. Especially with the slow plodding Isaac Redman.

And what was sad? In the last game of the year? We had Redman at FB, Dwyer behind him, and we gave the ball to Redman, the up man, who was closer to the LOS. Easy conversion.

And I don't think we ran that play 5 times all year.

Shoe
01-12-2013, 12:35 PM
I agree with you lloydroid for sure. There is a reason why 70-year olds retire--they get tired, they lose mental focus, they aren't as sharp, quick to adjust, etc. No matter the "ranking", anyone who's watched this defense will tell you something is wrong. People will say, "there are 30 other teams who would love to be ranked #1 too", but I think that's too simplistic.

Look at the personnel, the "star" personnel of this defense: Polamalu, Harrison are older. The young "stars" (I'm going to be generous, and throw in every starter under 26, 27 in there) at this moment: Woodley, Timmons, Keenan Lewis, Hood. Woodley is suited to DE in a 4-3. Timmons is suited to OLB in a 4-3. Lewis is suited to zone, which is what the Tampa-2 scheme is. Hood is suited to play inside in a 4-3.

Crash
01-12-2013, 01:07 PM
When your defense only gives up 6 points and losses, I am kind of thinking they deserve a free pass. Ben threw a 6 pic and the other FG happened from another pic as well. Bonehead Ben lost that game. He was horrible - just careless and moronic. Thanks Bonehead Ben.

And the "#1 ranked defense" lost garbage games against Tennessee and Oakland.

Thanks LeBeaPa.

raycafan
01-12-2013, 01:46 PM
I'm with Pappy on this, this season was a tell of to halves (like the Raven playoff game a few years ago). first half of season decent O no defense. Second half of season good D little O. Playoff game crappy play first half, stepped up play second. Just you finished with a win for 1 game but 500 record for a season.