PDA

View Full Version : Something many of you didn't know about Wallace vs Brown...



Steelhere10
01-09-2013, 07:44 PM
Heard this from Dulac today, The reason Wallace was upset about last season is that during the course of the year when Brown removed Ward from the starting lineup he switch the x position with Wallace for the z because he didn't know the plays of the former and that's when he blossomed and Wallace numbers fell off. So there you go coming from Dulac he knows what goes on and that's where the anger came from. So another reason to hate or understand? Nothing to do with Brown about being jealous just was upset about the switch.

Steelhere10
01-09-2013, 07:45 PM
But they made the switch back this season and that's why Brown didn't have a good season aside from injuries.

Crash
01-09-2013, 07:48 PM
Dulac is a schmuck. Has he walked home from Indy yet?

BradshawsHairdresser
01-09-2013, 08:33 PM
Heard this from Dulac today, The reason Wallace was upset about last season is that during the course of the year when Brown removed Ward from the starting lineup he switch the x position with Wallace for the z because he didn't know the plays of the former and that's when he blossomed and Wallace numbers fell off. So there you go coming from Dulac he knows what goes on and that's where the anger came from. So another reason to hate or understand? Nothing to do with Brown about being jealous just was upset about the switch.

If true, unprofessional and childish behavior by Wallace. Suck it up and go play. Run the routes and catch the ball, and you'll get your opportunities.


What a diva.

Chadman
01-09-2013, 09:28 PM
If true, unprofessional and childish behavior by Wallace. Suck it up and go play. Run the routes and catch the ball, and you'll get your opportunities.


What a diva.

You're right.

And next year, the Steelers should move Pouncey from OC to LG, to allow Legursky to fit in better. And then Pouncey should accept less money for playing a lesser position.

SidSmythe
01-09-2013, 09:38 PM
That's crap!
Wallace has been and always was put in position to stretch the field. If he doesn't know every WR position on the field, then shame on him. He should know the assignments of the TE too.

BradshawsHairdresser
01-10-2013, 12:02 AM
You're right.

And next year, the Steelers should move Pouncey from OC to LG, to allow Legursky to fit in better. And then Pouncey should accept less money for playing a lesser position.

If the coaching staff decides it's better for the team, darn tootin' Pouncey should accept a move to LG. And since when is LG a "lesser position"? Faneca got paid pretty well for playing LG, and so would Pouncey, if he performed at a high level.

BradshawsHairdresser
01-10-2013, 12:08 AM
That's crap!
Wallace has been and always was put in position to stretch the field. If he doesn't know every WR position on the field, then shame on him. He should know the assignments of the TE too.

$$$$$$$$$$

Chadman
01-10-2013, 12:39 AM
Starting to think we are reading the same article, but getting a different understanding of it..

So, to clarify where we stand on this, Chadman's understanding is that:

A- Brown steps in for Ward into the X position, Wallace was in the Z.
B- Brown doesn't understand the routes of the X position, so Wallace & Brown swap- Wallace moves from Z to X.
C- Brown shines in Z position, a la Wallace, Wallace's numbers drop as a result of different routes.
D- Wallace is unhappy about this because he's in his contract year- lower production = lower pay.
E- Wallace doesn't get offered the money he wants, Brown gets healthy pay increase.
F- Wallace & Brown swap back responsibilities this season- Brown is now statistically inferior to Wallace again.

Is that how everyone read that article?

If so- Chadman can understand the frustration.

Djfan
01-10-2013, 01:29 AM
Starting to think we are reading the same article, but getting a different understanding of it..

So, to clarify where we stand on this, Chadman's understanding is that:

A- Brown steps in for Ward into the X position, Wallace was in the Z.
B- Brown doesn't understand the routes of the X position, so Wallace & Brown swap- Wallace moves from Z to X.
C- Brown shines in Z position, a la Wallace, Wallace's numbers drop as a result of different routes.
D- Wallace is unhappy about this because he's in his contract year- lower production = lower pay.
E- Wallace doesn't get offered the money he wants, Brown gets healthy pay increase.
F- Wallace & Brown swap back responsibilities this season- Brown is now statistically inferior to Wallace again.

Is that how everyone read that article?

If so- Chadman can understand the frustration.

If your take is the truth, Wallace needed to just be happy to do what he can to bring wins. He didn't. He pouted and held out, letting Brown shine. The attitude is the problem, which is further hurt by dropping passes and not fighting for the ball.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 02:06 AM
If your take is the truth, Wallace needed to just be happy to do what he can to bring wins. He didn't. He pouted and held out, letting Brown shine. The attitude is the problem, which is further hurt by dropping passes and not fighting for the ball.

To be fair- Wallace didn't 'hold out'- he never signed his RFA tender, so he was, effectively, not under contract. And that is pretty standard practice for guys wanting to secure a 'bigger deal'. If he'd gone to Camp, and gotten hurt- then what?

Also, Wallace has never publicly complained about anything. His 'moaning & whining' is the stuff of legend, perpetuated by the media who could never actually quote anything from him, and by messege boards that progressively got more worked up over a phantom report that Wallace wanted "Top 10 WR money".

In fact, the only factual quote we got from Wallace in regard to that is when he tweeted "Don't believe everything you read in the media".

He also 'tweeted' his congrats to Antonio Brown after Brown got his contract.

Now, granted- he didn't look like the Mike Wallace of the previous couple of seasons through 2012- but neither did guys that don't receive anywhere near the critisism of Wallace- guys like Antonio Brown, for example.

Chadman is going to be painted with the "Wallace lover" tag for the arguments he puts up, and that's ok. But Wallace had more TD's, more yards & a greater body of work than Brown- every year. If Brown is 'worth' $42 million, Wallace is worth more. Brown got his contract signed within days of Wallace rejecting an offer from the Steelers- yet at the time, word was both sides were close to a resolution. When Brown got paid, negotiations with Wallace fell apart. Chadman has called this the 'tit-for-tat' signing in the past- and will again. The Steelers FO (Read- Rooney) got their nose out of joint after Wallace knocked back another offer, and immediately over reacted & extended Brown (who would only be a RFA, not UFA the next season) to what was reported to be similar money to what they offered Wallace.

The result was, the Steelers overpaid Brown (Chadman likes Brown- really!) a year early (RFA in 2013..) & condemned Wallace (UFA 2013) to moving on, as funds, as we can see, are tight. For their investment, the Steelers got a WR (Brown) who couldn't live up to his 1 year success & was outperformed by the 'malcontenant' in Wallace, despite Wallace only 'going through the motions'.

It's ok, Brown's 780 yards as the #1 WR will be all that's required next season for the Steelers to make the playoffs.... :)

Slapstick
01-10-2013, 06:57 AM
...and if Wallace had actualy outperformed Brown, I would agree with you...

Last season, Wallace only proved that he isn't worth a contract more than Brown's...

Now, whether or not the Steelers overpaid Brown is a completely separate issue altogether...

Steelhere10
01-10-2013, 07:03 AM
Starting to think we are reading the same article, but getting a different understanding of it..

So, to clarify where we stand on this, Chadman's understanding is that:

A- Brown steps in for Ward into the X position, Wallace was in the Z.
B- Brown doesn't understand the routes of the X position, so Wallace & Brown swap- Wallace moves from Z to X.
C- Brown shines in Z position, a la Wallace, Wallace's numbers drop as a result of different routes.
D- Wallace is unhappy about this because he's in his contract year- lower production = lower pay.
E- Wallace doesn't get offered the money he wants, Brown gets healthy pay increase.
F- Wallace & Brown swap back responsibilities this season- Brown is now statistically inferior to Wallace again.

Is that how everyone read that article?

If so- Chadman can understand the frustration.
This is correct, I might not have the position correct because I was listening while driving but I'm pretty sure it w

Slapstick
01-10-2013, 07:17 AM
Here's the thing:

If you are going to use the position switch to justify Mike Wallace's poor second half in 2011, you can't use the same position switch as a weapon to go after Antonio Brown in 2012...

It absolutely makes no sense whatsoever...

AngryAsian
01-10-2013, 08:19 AM
Let's take a page out of Carnell Lake's professionalism playbook shall we... drafted from UCLA having played LB, became a ProBowl SS for his team then asked to swtch to CB to tandem with Rod Woodson.... if these reports are accurate Wallace wasn't asked to switch to TE or RB.... nope... just asked to play WR, do his job and help this team get some wins.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 09:20 AM
Here's the thing:

If you are going to use the position switch to justify Mike Wallace's poor second half in 2011, you can't use the same position switch as a weapon to go after Antonio Brown in 2012...

It absolutely makes no sense whatsoever...

To clarify- not using the position switch to 'go after Brown'- at least, not so far as performance goes.

But Wallace was 'attacked', if you like, for 'not knowing all the routes, including the TE's', when in fact, it was Brown that didn't know the routes. That is on Brown, yet Wallace copped the blame, earlier in this thread (Was it Bradshaw? Think so..)

But that is pretty synonymous with what has happened all season. Wallace drops a catch- he's a bum. Brown fumbles, at least he's trying. Wallace demands more than what the Steelers offer- he's a greedy so-and-so & no WR is worth that unless they can leap threw hoops, backwars, while on fire, with their helmet coming off- and still catch it. Brown gets paid $42 million- it's a bargain...

Now- Brown doesn't know the routes, Wallace moves to accomodate that, he gets upset because the result is that his personal stats go down in a contract year- and Wallace cops the blame.

It's ok- Chadman understands that Brown is favoured while Wallace is Satan's offspring. Chadman will be glad to run that bum out of town..

Chadman
01-10-2013, 09:22 AM
Let's take a page out of Carnell Lake's professionalism playbook shall we... drafted from UCLA having played LB, became a ProBowl SS for his team then asked to swtch to CB to tandem with Rod Woodson.... if these reports are accurate Wallace wasn't asked to switch to TE or RB.... nope... just asked to play WR, do his job and help this team get some wins.

And he did.

How about getting some blame on Brown for not knowing his routes?

Eddie Spaghetti
01-10-2013, 09:32 AM
I'm with chadman.

wallace is demonized at every turn while brown gets a pass.

feltdizz
01-10-2013, 09:40 AM
Anyone who turns down a contract while pouting and losing focus will get demonized over the hard worker.... even if the hard worker doesn't know all the routes or received a pay raise.

I definitely think Wallace is unfairly criticized on here but oh well... he isn't the first nor the last to be in this position. Timmons, Woodley, Troy, etc... anyone who gets a big payday or wants a big payday ends up under a microscope.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 09:40 AM
"Last season, Wallace only proved that he isn't worth a contract more than Brown's...

Now, whether or not the Steelers overpaid Brown is a completely separate issue altogether..."

See- this is actually Chadman's point. Wallace's "Top 10 WR Money" claim is, admittedly, hard to support based on the back-end of 2011. But that is half a season, it's a sample of a greater body of work. The 'anti-Wallace' crowd will use that as the reason he can't justify being a top earner.

OK, fair enough.

But if that is the case (not disputing that, right now), then Antonio Brown was supremely overpaid for the same sample of work. Brown really only 'blossomed' as a WR the 2nd half of 2011. He was very, very good. But that was the sum total of his success.

Wallace has 3 years of success to back up his claim of being worth more than Brown.

Now, while it might not be the most 'professional' behaviour, is it at least understandable that he'd be a little put out that half-a-season Brown got paid roughly what the Steelers reportedly had offered Wallace?

And if Wallace did, indeed, make the move from Z to X WR, and the routes didn't allow Wallace to do what he does best- which is go deep, in order to assist Antonio Brown- who didn't know the routes, as this article suggests.... then when Brown got 'paid' for that production, and Wallace was told by the FO he wasn't worth more than Brown (paraphrasing, obviously..), then wouldn't you also question the personal value of helping another player, and the team, out?

Slapstick
01-10-2013, 09:42 AM
To clarify- not using the position switch to 'go after Brown'- at least, not so far as performance goes.

All I'm saying is this:

Either the position lends itself to a dropoff in stats (Wallace) or it does not (Brown)...if we are going to argue who outperformed whom, we should simply be consistent...

BTW, this story really doesn't hold water, at least in my eyes...

Chadman
01-10-2013, 09:45 AM
Anyone who turns down a contract while pouting and losing focus will get demonized over the hard worker.... even if the hard worker doesn't know all the routes or received a pay raise.

I definitely think Wallace is unfairly criticized on here but oh well... he isn't the first nor the last to be in this position. Timmons, Woodley, Troy, etc... anyone who gets a big payday or wants a big payday ends up under a microscope.

Look- absolutely agree with all that.

Chadman isn't anti- Antonio Brown. This current Mike Wallace/ Antonio Brown contract thing isn't really about the players... not in Chadman's mind. The F.O. messed up- they undervalued Wallace, they got narky when he demanded more, then over reacted by overpaying the guy who was only scheduled to become a RFA, not UFA, and the result was they can now not afford Wallace.

They effectively ran him out of town.

It was dumb, and it makes the team weaker.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 09:48 AM
All I'm saying is this:

Either the position lends itself to a dropoff in stats (Wallace) or it does not (Brown)...if we are going to argue who outperformed whom, we should simply be consistent...

BTW, this story really doesn't hold water, at least in my eyes...

When Chadman compares Brown to Wallace, on the "who outperformed who" thing, normally it will be a matter of Wallace having performed at his standard for several seasons, compared to Brown's 1 season. The X/Z WR comparison was more to point out why Wallace might feel miffed that he wasn't paid while Brown was.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 09:49 AM
I'm with chadman.

wallace is demonized at every turn while brown gets a pass.

Of course you are- Chadman is always right. :)

Slapstick
01-10-2013, 09:50 AM
When Chadman compares Brown to Wallace, on the "who outperformed who" thing, normally it will be a matter of Wallace having performed at his standard for several seasons, compared to Brown's 1 season. The X/Z WR comparison was more to point out why Wallace might feel miffed that he wasn't paid while Brown was.

The Steelers tried to pay Wallace and he refused...

Djfan
01-10-2013, 09:52 AM
I'm with chadman.

wallace is demonized at every turn while brown gets a pass.

It's because of the perception of attitude and willingness.

Ghost
01-10-2013, 09:53 AM
I have to say - who cares? Everything is pure speculation anyway (who said what, demands that were made, why is someone angry., etc). Come 9/8/13, if Wallace is dressed in the Black & Gold it will be great. If he's not; I won't give him a nano-second's worth of thought. I"ll be too amped up rooting for the guys who are on the squad and beginning the work needed for ring #7.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 09:54 AM
I have to say - who cares? Everything is pure speculation anyway (who said what, demands that were made, why is someone angry., etc). Come 9/8/13, if Wallace is dressed in the Black & Gold it will be great. If he's not; I won't give him a nano-second's worth of thought. I"ll be too amped up rooting for the guys who are on the squad and beginning the work needed for ring #7.

Yeah, but spirits are notoriously whimsical.

feltdizz
01-10-2013, 09:57 AM
Look- absolutely agree with all that.

Chadman isn't anti- Antonio Brown. This current Mike Wallace/ Antonio Brown contract thing isn't really about the players... not in Chadman's mind. The F.O. messed up- they undervalued Wallace, they got narky when he demanded more, then over reacted by overpaying the guy who was only scheduled to become a RFA, not UFA, and the result was they can now not afford Wallace.

They effectively ran him out of town.

It was dumb, and it makes the team weaker.

They didn't run Wallace out of town... they tried to pay him what they thought he was worth and he refused. We will see if he is worth the big money this year.... I hope we don't throw big money at Wallace... he hasn't shown up in a big game in a long time and I think the WR position can be filled much easier than most believe. Look at Megatron, Fitzgerald, Deshaun Jackson... Big money WR's who play on bad teams. I would much rather spend that money in the trenches instead of throwing it at a WR who needs a perfect pass and can't draw a PI to save his life.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 09:57 AM
The Steelers tried to pay Wallace and he refused...

Obviously, can only go on the reports we read- but if the Steelers felt Brown was worth $42 million, and they offered Wallace something similar... as Chadman said- there's 3 years of evidence that Wallace deserved more than Brown. If he turned them down, but were willing to pay Brown $42m, they should have tried harder on Wallace.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 09:59 AM
They didn't run Wallace out of town... they tried to pay him what they thought he was worth and he refused. We will see if he is worth the big money this year.... I hope we don't throw big money at Wallace... he hasn't shown up in a big game in a long time and I think the WR position can be filled much easier than most believe. Look at Megatron, Fitzgerald, Deshaun Jackson... Big money WR's who play on bad teams. I would much rather spend that money in the trenches instead of throwing it at a WR who needs a perfect pass and can't draw a PI to save his life.

When they gave the future RFA $42 million, and they knew the team would be roughly $15 million over the cap this off-season- they ran him out of town.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 10:01 AM
It's because of the perception of attitude and willingness.

Legursky must be everyone's favourite OL player then... if attitude & willingness get a guy a free ride...

Slapstick
01-10-2013, 10:03 AM
Obviously, can only go on the reports we read- but if the Steelers felt Brown was worth $42 million, and they offered Wallace something similar... as Chadman said- there's 3 years of evidence that Wallace deserved more than Brown. If he turned them down, but were willing to pay Brown $42m, they should have tried harder on Wallace.

Or, if the last season-and-a-half is any indication, perhaps not...

Chadman
01-10-2013, 10:10 AM
Or, if the last season-and-a-half is any indication, perhaps not...

You realise this could go on forever, and we may end up creating our own version of Crash vs Pirogi Pete "Randle El is better than Antonio Bryant" legacy?

Slapstick
01-10-2013, 10:11 AM
You realise this could go on forever, and we may end up creating our own version of Crash vs Pirogi Pete "Randle El is better than Antonio Bryant" legacy?

We all bear a terrible cost when the Steelers don't make the playoffs...

feltdizz
01-10-2013, 10:12 AM
Legursky must be everyone's favourite OL player then... if attitude & willingness get a guy a free ride...

free ride? Most on here have mixed feelings about Legs... and IMO I think our OL is better when Legs is at C and Pouncey is at guard. Did Pouncey's production drop or did he pout when he was asked to move? I didn't see it.

I know WR's are emotional but Wallace showed he isn't to be trusted when faced with a challenge or adversity. So you didn't get the money you wanted and now you lose focus and short arm catchable balls. What happens if when he gets the big payday? Will he step up?

Slapstick
01-10-2013, 10:13 AM
You realise this could go on forever, and we may end up creating our own version of Crash vs Pirogi Pete "Randle El is better than Antonio Bryant" legacy?

Besides, as one bald and goateed guy to another, I think we're both mature enough not to degenerate into a juvenile name-calling session...

Aren't we?
:confused:

Chadman
01-10-2013, 10:14 AM
Besides, as one bald and goateed guy to another, I think we're both mature enough not to degenerate into a juvenile name-calling session...

Aren't we?
:confused:

Ok... baldy.

Chadman
01-10-2013, 10:15 AM
free ride? Most on here have mixed feelings about Legs... and IMO I think our OL is better when Legs is at C and Pouncey is at guard. Did Pouncey's production drop or did he pout when he was asked to move? I didn't see it.

I know WR's are emotional but Wallace showed he isn't to be trusted when faced with a challenge or adversity. So you didn't get the money you wanted and now you lose focus and short arm catchable balls. What happens if when he gets the big payday? Will he step up?

Well, Chadman can name 1 WR that got paid & didn't 'step up'....

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
01-10-2013, 10:37 AM
Starting to think we are reading the same article, but getting a different understanding of it..

So, to clarify where we stand on this, Chadman's understanding is that:

A- Brown steps in for Ward into the X position, Wallace was in the Z.
B- Brown doesn't understand the routes of the X position, so Wallace & Brown swap- Wallace moves from Z to X.
C- Brown shines in Z position, a la Wallace, Wallace's numbers drop as a result of different routes.
D- Wallace is unhappy about this because he's in his contract year- lower production = lower pay.
E- Wallace doesn't get offered the money he wants, Brown gets healthy pay increase.
F- Wallace & Brown swap back responsibilities this season- Brown is now statistically inferior to Wallace again.

Is that how everyone read that article?

If so- Chadman can understand the frustration.

Sure, but you have to love the irony.

Brown doesn't know the position, so he gets accommodated with a move to a position he understands better.

Wallace doesn't like being moved and the response is that he should know and understand every position.

Also, FWIW (and I forget when this was), Hines one time pouted in camp because they were toying with moving him to the slot in the 3WR set. I believe the third WR was Troy Edwards and Troy would take Hines' spot and HW would move into the slot was the plan.

SidSmythe
01-10-2013, 10:39 AM
BROWN loves the game and is willing to do anything asked of him ... He will improve every year.

Mike Wallace peaked in his 2nd year ... other teams know his 1 strength and they've taken that away.

feltdizz
01-10-2013, 10:43 AM
BROWN loves the game and is willing to do anything asked of him ... He will improve every year.

Mike Wallace peaked in his 2nd year ... other teams know his 1 strength and they've taken that away.

I think this is the biggest concern...

Eddie Spaghetti
01-10-2013, 10:49 AM
I hope brown can improve every year as you say.

but I'm not certain of that as he will now draw the other teams top corner.

BradshawsHairdresser
01-10-2013, 11:14 AM
I'm certainly not about to "give Brown a pass." Brown may prove to be a dipstick and a diva... I certainly don't care for some of his on-field antics, and he made his share of bonehead mistakes this season. I hope the Steelers didn't overpay him, but based on this season, it looks as though they did.

But let's not make Wallace out to be some kind of victim of mistreatment from the Steelers. IIRC, the contract he was offered was better than the one Brown got...reportedly, Wallace would have received $10 million per year (nearly $2 million more per year than Brown ended up getting), with considerably more guaranteed money than Brown got in his deal.

Crash
01-10-2013, 02:01 PM
Did teams take it away.

Or did Haley?

hawaiiansteel
01-10-2013, 02:18 PM
Did teams take it away.

Or did Haley?

it was obviously Art II.

phillyesq
01-10-2013, 02:23 PM
Did teams take it away.

Or did Haley?

If I recall, there were more than a few deep balls this year intended for Wallace that were not on target.

Crash
01-10-2013, 03:53 PM
it was obviously Art II.

Him too. Puppets gotta eat.

I told you guys on Kip's board too that the 3rd down Ben offense was doing nothing but setting him up to get hurt.

And that's exactly what happened isn't it?

Art needs to stay in the owners box. Or grab a headset and start coaching.

BradshawsHairdresser
01-10-2013, 04:36 PM
Him too. Puppets gotta eat.

I told you guys on Kip's board too that the 3rd down Ben offense was doing nothing but setting him up to get hurt.

And that's exactly what happened isn't it?



Yeah, and we all know Ben never got hurt under Arians' offense.:roll:

Crash
01-10-2013, 05:06 PM
Not to this extent. He missed two games, in 5 years, that he couldn't have played in. One in 2009 and one in 2011.

It's funny hearing Rooney, "Our priority is keeping Ben healthy"

But they have no clue how to do it.

papillon
01-10-2013, 05:14 PM
Not to this extent. He missed two games, in 5 years, that he couldn't have played in. One in 2009 and one in 2011.

It's funny hearing Rooney, "Our priority is keeping Ben healthy"

But they have no clue how to do it.

How do they do it? Ben has to be the hardest quarterback in the NFL to protect. You never know where he might end up on any given play. I love Ben, but sometime he is his own worst enemy when it comes to taking sacks. His never give up on a play attitude is awesome, but it does lead to hits, hits that can be avoided. Ben doesn't want to change, most fans don't want him to change and I hope he never changes, but protecting Ben is not an easy task.

Pappy

feltdizz
01-10-2013, 05:26 PM
IT wasn't Haley's fault he was hurt.... it happens. The problem is Ben's style and guys like Crash think it's wimpy to avoid a hit or give up on a play that "appears over" to everyone but Ben.

Do I want him to change? Sure... not his hunger for winning but his appetite for contact. It's almost like Ben gets bored when he isn't hit or he isn't really playing football unless he is taking a few on the chin.

Most fans of Ben will say he is a great pocket passer who rarely does the sand lot thing but IMO the risk outweighs the reward. Trying to throw a pass in SF the 2 years ago when draped by 3 guys? For what? The never say die attitude isn't working out too well... I think it's time from Ben to grow as a player.

Crash
01-10-2013, 05:45 PM
How do they do it? Ben has to be the hardest quarterback in the NFL to protect.

It's rather simple.

Stay out of 3rd and predictable. Move the pocket. Slants, crossing patterns, mis directions, etc.

If you want Ben to use his RBs as pass catchers use them on DESIGNED 1st option plays which Haley at times did, but not nearly enough, instead of having them as mere checkdowns.



Trying to limit his hits via trying to limit his pass attempts doesn't work when you are in 3rd and pass all day.

And most important. KEEP HEATH MILLER OUT OF THE $%^&*( BACKFIELD!

That play takes too long to develop, always has.

NorthCoast
01-10-2013, 07:52 PM
I wonder what Hines Ward's mother would have to say to Wallace after that: "Well Mike, your just gonna have to try harder to make them notice". A whole different perspective on how to approach adversity. Sadly, some of these young kids were never taught well by their mothers.

RuthlessBurgher
01-10-2013, 08:10 PM
BROWN loves the game and is willing to do anything asked of him ... He will improve every year.

Mike Wallace peaked in his 2nd year ... other teams know his 1 strength and they've taken that away.

You could also say Brown peaked in his second year.

Brown's 321 yard decrease from his second year (1108 yards) to his third year (787 yards) is much greater than Wallace's 64 yard decrease from his second year (1257 yards) to his third year (1193 yards).

NorthCoast
01-10-2013, 08:32 PM
Which Steeler had the best YAC? Would you guess Wallace? Brown?

Wrong.

Heath 23rd in NFL with 351 yds

Next:

Brown 32nd in NFL with 319. Yards/gm Brown 60.5, good for 34th.

Wallace? didnt make top 40 in either case..... oh that's right. he wasn't targeted enough to stay interested...

Steelerphile
01-10-2013, 08:40 PM
You could also say Brown peaked in his second year.

Brown's 321 yard decrease from his second year (1108 yards) to his third year (787 yards) is much greater than Wallace's 64 yard decrease from his second year (1257 yards) to his third year (1193 yards).
Brown missed three games with injury and wasn't effective probably parts of two or three other games because of injury. Wallace missed the last game for injury and was healthy the rest of the year. So I think that should be part of this equation, for 2012. Wallace could have had the contract they gave Brown but he didn't report. So, they gave it to Brown. Not a bad decision, since I think Brown's season was impacted a lot more this season by injury than Wallace's was. I think he will always outwork Wallace and be a better route runner. He has also has return ability that Wallace doesn't give you.

Wallace has rare speed but I don't think he is the complete receiver. He is bigger and stronger than Brown but I think Brown has better hands. Thay are different but Brown has rare work ethic and Wallace has rare speed. They are both a little cocky but I think Wallace is more money oriented. If he were not, the Steelers would have signed him. I don't think they can sign both so Wallace is gone. Wallace made the decision just as much as the Steelers did. I think they will be be OK because QBs make the receiver more than the reverse. As long as Ben can stay healthy and still show willingness to improve, the Steelers will be good at receiver because I think there are good ones out there.

RuthlessBurgher
01-10-2013, 09:01 PM
If Brown has a rare work ethic, why did he only know the routes for 1 of the WR positions when he was on this team for a year-and-a-half instead of the routes for all 3 of the WR positions?

Slapstick
01-10-2013, 09:13 PM
If Brown has a rare work ethic, why did he only know the routes for 1 of the WR positions when he was on this team for a year-and-a-half instead of the routes for all 3 of the WR positions?

And that's the part of the story that doesn't hold water for me...

Steelerphile
01-10-2013, 09:18 PM
If Brown has a rare work ethic, why did he only know the routes for 1 of the WR positions when he was on this team for a year-and-a-half instead of the routes for all 3 of the WR positions?

Don't believe everything you read. Also when I say rare work ethic, I mean, training in a physical sense, getting in shape and catching passes. I think he surpasses Wallace and most others in that way. Mentally? does he know the routes. I am not sure about that, but I don't place entire faith in 2nd and 3rd hand reports, though.

Steelhere10
01-10-2013, 09:20 PM
Don't believe everything you read. Also when I say rare work ethic, I mean, training in a physical sense, getting in shape and catching passes. I think he surpasses Wallace and most others in that way. Mentally? does he know the routes. I am not sure about that, but I don't place entire faith in 2nd and 3rd hand reports, though.So you trained with Brown... sounds like second and third hand reports to me!

Steelerphile
01-10-2013, 09:32 PM
So you trained with Brown... sounds like second and third hand reports to me!

No I seen enough of how he trained during the offseason and in camp. I don't think that is in doubt. I watched video of him. Do you really doubt that he trains hard? Now the issue about what he knows about the x or y receiver, I don't think you can establish that.

Steelhere10
01-10-2013, 09:42 PM
No I seen enough of how he trained during the offseason and in camp. I don't think that is in doubt. I watched video of him. Do you really doubt that he trains hard? Now the issue about what he knows about the x or y receiver, I don't think you can establish that.Well no disrespect but I will take a beat writer who covers the team word over yours. And watching a video don't prove he trains harder than Wallace it just mean that he posted a video training.

Steelerphile
01-10-2013, 11:14 PM
Well no disrespect but I will take a beat writer who covers the team word over yours. And watching a video don't prove he trains harder than Wallace it just mean that he posted a video training.


What beat reporter are you citing? Wallace wasn't in camp. OK, you can have your opinion. I think Brown is a workout warrior. Wallace probably works but nobody works as hard as Brown. The beat reporters all say that. Bown works himself to the point of exhaustion and maybe overworks.

papillon
01-11-2013, 12:06 AM
It's rather simple.

Stay out of 3rd and predictable. Move the pocket. Slants, crossing patterns, mis directions, etc.

If you want Ben to use his RBs as pass catchers use them on DESIGNED 1st option plays which Haley at times did, but not nearly enough, instead of having them as mere checkdowns.



Trying to limit his hits via trying to limit his pass attempts doesn't work when you are in 3rd and pass all day.

And most important. KEEP HEATH MILLER OUT OF THE $%^&*( BACKFIELD!

That play takes too long to develop, always has.





Stay out of third and predictable? what's the formula for that? Which of our backls was consistent enough to get even enough yards to put the Steelers in 3rd and 3, 4 or 5? One missed pass on 1st or 2nd down and you''re almost guaranteed third and predictable. It's not that easy to put the offense in a good down and distance every drive.

Moving the pocket limits the field and if the WR doesn't create space there's no where to throw it.
The Steelers use crossing patterns and slants in theor offense, 3rd and 5 or less in a crucial spot and the Steleers are looking for the quick slant.

Ben and first read passes to running backs aren't what Ben likes to do, even when they're open. Ben loves to go down field.
Ben's injury was his on doing this year, looking to make a play when he had more than one opportunity to heave it into the cheap seats. Okay, try and make a play initially, but there are just some times (especially as good as Ben is) that the best is thing to do is chuck it OOB and go back to the huddle.

Protecting Ben is difficult. The best protection for Ben, is Ben.

Pappy

Crash
01-11-2013, 12:18 AM
Stay out of third and predictable? what's the formula for that?

Pass early to get leads. Run late to protect them.

We're too concerned with trying to run early. When this offense clicks with Ben it's because they come out of the gate flying.

Be aggressive, attack teams.

Junk the full back and David Paulson formations.

3 wide, a TE, and a RB.

That's who we need to be.

We did it Art's way. 8-8.

Now he can STFU and allow his staff to do it the CORRECT way.

Crash
01-11-2013, 12:20 AM
Ben's injury was his on doing this year, looking to make a play when he had more than one opportunity to heave it into the cheap seats.

From the pocket on 3rd and 4? The minute he does that?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Put Hometown Charlie in!

Btw, the play Ben was hurt? Heath Miller in the backfield.

Chadman
01-11-2013, 12:47 AM
Brown trained with T.O. & Ochocinco- saw the videos too.

Of course- neither of those guys are in the NFL anymore....and were known distractions to their teams....any chance they may pass on more than just the work ethic?

Slapstick
01-11-2013, 07:10 AM
Brown trained with T.O. & Ochocinco- saw the videos too.

Of course- neither of those guys are in the NFL anymore....and were known distractions to their teams....any chance they may pass on more than just the work ethic?

Why? Did Wallace train with them, too?

kindlecatsb'ng
01-11-2013, 08:08 AM
Maybe the Steelers need to bring back Hines Ward as the WR coach.

Chadman
01-11-2013, 08:52 AM
Why? Did Wallace train with them, too?

No- Wallace was too busy sulking on his own to hang out with the rich boys... :p

feltdizz
01-11-2013, 10:17 AM
From the pocket on 3rd and 4? The minute he does that?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Put Hometown Charlie in!

Btw, the play Ben was hurt? Heath Miller in the backfield.


[/COLOR]

LOL... you say this all the time. How many times was Ben booed when he threw a pass away? How many times was Ben boooed or called a sissy when he avoided a hit?

I think you are the only one who boo's that stuff.

papillon
01-11-2013, 10:47 AM
From the pocket on 3rd and 4? The minute he does that?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Put Hometown Charlie in!

Btw, the play Ben was hurt? Heath Miller in the backfield.


[/COLOR]

Who gives a crap about the booing? The play to make in that situation is throw the ball into the dirt or into the cheap seats. Ben dropped back took his first look and nothing open, steps up and has time right there to get rid of it, continues to move around the pocket the left tackle loses his guy and Ben gets sandwiched. With the defense playing good and they were in that game, a punt isn't a bad play.

No one with any football acumen is calling for Charlie Batch this is something you believe is happening but in reality it isn't. I love Ben, but that injury was avoidable and the fall out from the injury cost the Steelers a playoff spot.

The Steelers need Ben for the next 5-6 years to be competitive as he gets older the hits begin to take a toll.

Pappy

Oviedo
01-11-2013, 03:32 PM
Brown trained with T.O. & Ochocinco- saw the videos too.

Of course- neither of those guys are in the NFL anymore....and were known distractions to their teams....any chance they may pass on more than just the work ethic?

I believe Andre Johnson was also in that group training if I remember the videos. He very much is in the NFL.

Slapstick
01-11-2013, 03:50 PM
Who gives a crap about the booing? The play to make in that situation is throw the ball into the dirt or into the cheap seats. Ben dropped back took his first look and nothing open, steps up and has time right there to get rid of it, continues to move around the pocket the left tackle loses his guy and Ben gets sandwiched. With the defense playing good and they were in that game, a punt isn't a bad play.
Pappy

The catastrophic ankle sprain last year wasn't much different...

Crash
01-11-2013, 03:53 PM
LOL... you say this all the time. How many times was Ben booed when he threw a pass away?

How many were from the pocket?

He starts doing the Manning flop or throwing balls away from the pocket?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Crash
01-11-2013, 03:56 PM
Who gives a crap about the booing? The play to make in that situation is throw the ball into the dirt or into the cheap seats.

No, the play to make in that situation is to keep Heath Miller out of the backfield.

It sucked when Arians did it, it sucks when Haley does it.

Heath Miller's advantage is what he's at the LOS or in motion from the slot.

Putting him the backfield as a pass catching option negates that advantage.

papillon
01-11-2013, 04:35 PM
No, the play to make in that situation is to keep Heath Miller out of the backfield.

It sucked when Arians did it, it sucks when Haley does it.

Heath Miller's advantage is what he's at the LOS or in motion from the slot.

Putting him the backfield as a pass catching option negates that advantage.


[/COLOR]

The play is the play and the formation is the formation there's nothing we can do about that and Ben is capable of changing the play, but he didn't. All I'm saying is that in that situation regardless of the play call Ben needs to get rid of it, not take the hit and come back and fight the next series. Instead of losing a series the Steelers lost two games and barely won the third. Who knows what lingering affects the injury had on the rest of the season. Ben never seemed quite right to me the rest of the season. For all the laughing and guffawing over Manning and Brady curling up in the fetal position, both quarterbacks understand that their teams have a better chance at winning games with them on the field and not in a boot or flak jacket on the sideline. I wish Ben would realize the same.

Pappy

feltdizz
01-11-2013, 04:48 PM
How many were from the pocket?

He starts doing the Manning flop or throwing balls away from the pocket?

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The Manning flop works. Did you see Rivers throwing balls away like a wimp before tearing us a new one? Sometimes the smart play is to go to the sideline upright instead of on a cart.

Crash
01-11-2013, 04:52 PM
The play is the play and the formation is the formation there's nothing we can do about that and Ben is capable of changing the play, but he didn't.

Yeah, a 3rd down draw to Redman. That'll work.


Who knows what lingering affects the injury had on the rest of the season

It didn't. The golf coaches play-calling did.

Just like Heath said, the Chiefs started taking away the short routes.

And Chubbs Peterson never adjusted to it.

Crash
01-11-2013, 04:53 PM
The Manning flop works. Did you see Rivers throwing balls away like a wimp before tearing us a new one?

Did you see Philip Rivers missed the playoffs for a 3rd straight season?

If that's what you want Ben to be? Trade him.

feltdizz
01-11-2013, 04:54 PM
Chubbs Peterson...lol. Seriously though, you don't think stunk up the place after he returned? He was responsible for a lot of gifts to the other team. It's been a long time since he led a comeback to... and the Philly comeback wasn't that special when you look at how bad they flopped.

feltdizz
01-11-2013, 04:56 PM
Did you see Philip Rivers missed the playoffs for a 3rd straight season?

If that's what you want Ben to be? Trade him.

typical crash comeback... no one is comparing careers or stats. I'm talking about injuries and staying on the field.

Crash
01-11-2013, 04:58 PM
Chubbs Peterson...lol. Seriously though, you don't think stunk up the place after he returned?

He strugged in the first half against the Chargers. He ALWAYS struggles for a half after a lay off.

The difference this time was Haley didn't do anything to make it easier.

Dallas? That was probably his best regulation game he had all year minus Oakland and Washington.

But again, needing 7 yards to set up Suisham once again Chubbs play-calling sucked.

The Bengals game was a joke. That was Haley's worst game of the year.

Why is the local golf pro getting a free pass?

Crash
01-11-2013, 04:59 PM
typical crash comeback... no one is comparing careers or stats. I'm talking about injuries and staying on the field.

Terrific, Rivers gives up plays and stays on the field.

But he's not WINNING anymore, is he?

steelz09
01-11-2013, 04:59 PM
The play is the play and the formation is the formation there's nothing we can do about that and Ben is capable of changing the play, but he didn't. All I'm saying is that in that situation regardless of the play call Ben needs to get rid of it, not take the hit and come back and fight the next series. Instead of losing a series the Steelers lost two games and barely won the third. Who knows what lingering affects the injury had on the rest of the season. Ben never seemed quite right to me the rest of the season. For all the laughing and guffawing over Manning and Brady curling up in the fetal position, both quarterbacks understand that their teams have a better chance at winning games with them on the field and not in a boot or flak jacket on the sideline. I wish Ben would realize the same.

Pappy

Ben isn't coachable in this regard. He has proven this over his entire career. How many more times will Ben take a sack which takes us out of field goal territory? That is simply poor QB play no matter how you slice it. What happened to "situational football", Ben?

Crash
01-11-2013, 05:00 PM
How many more times will Ben take a sack which takes us out of field goal territory?

I would bet in 9 years, that hasn't happened 15 times.

papillon
01-12-2013, 10:49 AM
I would bet in 9 years, that hasn't happened 15 times.


[/COLOR]

That's less than once a year and I doubt that that's the case. I'm almost certain it happened twice this year. I'm not going to check, but it feels like more than once. The sacks that take the Steelers out of field goal range aren't limited to the 4th quarter, losing three points in the first quarter is losing three points, you just have more time to get them back (if you get them back at all).

Pappy

NJ-STEELER
01-12-2013, 08:39 PM
then compare that to how many times he's had a succesful play when 'holding the ball too long' in that situation

ikestops85
01-12-2013, 09:12 PM
For those of you who think Wallace isn't a workout warrior. I believe he worked out this summer with Tom Shaw ... you know ... the guy that Ike Taylor trains with every year. I'm not sure why are questioning his workout ethic. I've never thought Wallace showed up out of shape. I just questioned his effort this past year. There were times it looked like he wasn't trying. I'd love for him to give the effort he showed his first few years.

hawaiiansteel
01-12-2013, 09:49 PM
For those of you who think Wallace isn't a workout warrior. I believe he worked out this summer with Tom Shaw ... you know ... the guy that Ike Taylor trains with every year.

Tom Shaw obviously doesn't ever work with his players on how to catch passes...