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jj28west
01-01-2013, 09:40 AM
I had the Steeler game streamed on my Laptop and the Colts/Texans game on TV. Did anyone else see how quick many of his release were before JJ got to him?

Maybe because he is a rook but I always perceiced BA having a scheme that took a long time for the WR's to run their patterns. If you were to time his dropbacks it was not like the OL was giving him 5 seconds to throw.

I know Luck was aggresive and had as many Int's as TD's but it was impressive how in sync he was with the WR's timewise and he was not just managing the game.

He does have Wayne but the rest of the WR corp appeared to be very inexperienced but yet effective.

My point is I never saw BA's philosophy working at all with a rook QB and am trying to figure out what changed, if anything, for Luck to be more than just efficient.

SidSmythe
01-01-2013, 09:52 AM
BEN is a backyard QB. He's looking for things to open up downfield. Just the way he plays.

I've watched guys release in the flat with no one covering them and BEN will look at them and then look back downfield.
Ben also loves the pump fake...he's a patient guy who loves high risk, high reward. That's just the way he is.

Oviedo
01-01-2013, 10:50 AM
Don't underestimate the impact of where they went to college. Luck came from a Pro style offense on a major team with high level talent coached by a former NFL QB. Ben came from a second tier league with much less talent and he had to develop a "playground" style to make things happen.

Not surprising that Luck is a more successful "system QB"

Steelhere10
01-01-2013, 11:02 AM
Maybe when BA gave Ben the freedom to choose the plays that he liked maybe it was a Ben who got rid of all the quick stuff.

feltdizz
01-01-2013, 01:13 PM
Don't underestimate the impact of where they went to college. Luck came from a Pro style offense on a major team with high level talent coached by a former NFL QB. Ben came from a second tier league with much less talent and he had to develop a "playground" style to make things happen.

Not surprising that Luck is a more successful "system QB"

Is Luck really a better system QB? He has a bunch of INT's, his QB rating and passing efficiency arent that great and he's benefiter from ST's TD's and a team running on pure emotion.

Ben is sandlot because that is what he prefers. When Ben checks down he is more successful.

I can admit I didnt expect Luck to will his team to the playoffs but we have to remember this Colts team is similar to the Steelerd team when Ben arrived. They arent used to losing and they tanked because they lost their franchise QB. This isnt the Browns or the Bills.

feltdizz
01-01-2013, 01:26 PM
Maybe when BA gave Ben the freedom to choose the plays that he liked maybe it was a Ben who got rid of all the quick stuff.

Ben loves going deep... it hurts his arm to throw short passes. Throwing touch passes isnt high on Ben's priority list and I dont think he practices these throws as much as he should nor does he respect the footwork and form needed to complete these passes.

Reminds me of Cam Newton. Not saying Cam is on Bens level but I watch Cam a ton and he can make all the throws in the 12 to 40 yard range on a rope but anything underneath or in the flat is a crap shoot.

DBR96A
01-01-2013, 02:52 PM
I had the Steeler game streamed on my Laptop and the Colts/Texans game on TV. Did anyone else see how quick many of his release were before JJ got to him?

Maybe because he is a rook but I always perceiced BA having a scheme that took a long time for the WR's to run their patterns. If you were to time his dropbacks it was not like the OL was giving him 5 seconds to throw.

I know Luck was aggresive and had as many Int's as TD's but it was impressive how in sync he was with the WR's timewise and he was not just managing the game.

He does have Wayne but the rest of the WR corp appeared to be very inexperienced but yet effective.

My point is I never saw BA's philosophy working at all with a rook QB and am trying to figure out what changed, if anything, for Luck to be more than just efficient.

Your sample size is too small. It'd be like watching the Steelers play the Titans last season and praising Roethlisberger for his quick release. Many Colts fans began to complain about Andrew Luck "holding the ball too long" this season, and a savvy few have noticed the peculiarities of Bruce Arians' system, like the guy who drew this picture, for example:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/637/559/hilton_original.jpg?1354717206


Furthermore, Andrew Luck was not efficient. His passer rating for the season was less than one point higher than Roethlisberger's "motorcycle" passer rating in 2006, and he was one off the league lead in INTs. He'll get more efficient, no doubt, but it remains to be seen how much more because many Colts fans have lamented the fact that Arians' offense wastes the short field, just like we did when he was here.

By the way, isn't it ironic that Andrew Luck, considered by all draftniks to be an intelligent precision passer at Stanford, is now being compared to Brett Favre in the pros? The system has a lot more impact on QBs than people realize. Drew Brees didn't become a star until working with Sean Payton in New Orleans. When he was in San Diego with Marty Schottenheimer and Cam Cameron, he was considered to be good, but kind of an also-ran as well. That's no coincidence. Meanwhile, I don't ever remember Roethlisberger being in the discussion for the league MVP under Arians the way he was this season before his injury.

flippy
01-01-2013, 07:30 PM
I think there's a mental side to the game that may not be Ben's strength. A lot of other QBs seem to be more quick/decisive. It was real evident his first year after watching the way Tommy Maddox played. Granted, Maddox went downhill after his neck injury very quickly. But Maddox was the complete opposite QB to Ben in almost every way. And it stood out.

I hoped Ben would develop beyond the plays that breakdown. And he did. But not as much as a lot of other QBs. Ben still looks very raw and rookie like at times.

jj28west
01-01-2013, 08:14 PM
I'll admit that I only seen three or so games with Luck so I was only going by what I saw against the Pats, Lions & Texans. I also have read that the Oline is superior to what BA/Ben had with the Steel.

That pic is amazing with no safety valve in the flat.

Great point about what Payton did to Brees career.


Your sample size is too small. It'd be like watching the Steelers play the Titans last season and praising Roethlisberger for his quick release. Many Colts fans began to complain about Andrew Luck "holding the ball too long" this season, and a savvy few have noticed the peculiarities of Bruce Arians' system, like the guy who drew this picture, for example:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/637/559/hilton_original.jpg?1354717206


Furthermore, Andrew Luck was not efficient. His passer rating for the season was less than one point higher than Roethlisberger's "motorcycle" passer rating in 2006, and he was one off the league lead in INTs. He'll get more efficient, no doubt, but it remains to be seen how much more because many Colts fans have lamented the fact that Arians' offense wastes the short field, just like we did when he was here.

By the way, isn't it ironic that Andrew Luck, considered by all draftniks to be an intelligent precision passer at Stanford, is now being compared to Brett Favre in the pros? The system has a lot more impact on QBs than people realize. Drew Brees didn't become a star until working with Sean Payton in New Orleans. When he was in San Diego with Marty Schottenheimer and Cam Cameron, he was considered to be good, but kind of an also-ran as well. That's no coincidence. Meanwhile, I don't ever remember Roethlisberger being in the discussion for the league MVP under Arians the way he was this season before his injury.

jj28west
01-01-2013, 08:27 PM
I have never seen a live game so I could only see the small window on TV. I hear how Ben has a tendency to wait until the WR breaks open instead of throwing to a spot. This takes time but as we have seen Ben is willing to pay the price for this. Its easy for me to be critical but a 4 yard completion is still a positive.

Like you said it would be great if Ben practiced on this touch. I am in Pats country so I see this all the time with Wes.


Ben loves going deep... it hurts his arm to throw short passes. Throwing touch passes isnt high on Ben's priority list and I dont think he practices these throws as much as he should nor does he respect the footwork and form needed to complete these passes.

Reminds me of Cam Newton. Not saying Cam is on Bens level but I watch Cam a ton and he can make all the throws in the 12 to 40 yard range on a rope but anything underneath or in the flat is a crap shoot.

NorthCoast
01-01-2013, 09:19 PM
I have never seen a live game so I could only see the small window on TV. I hear how Ben has a tendency to wait until the WR breaks open instead of throwing to a spot. This takes time but as we have seen Ben is willing to pay the price for this. Its easy for me to be critical but a 4 yard completion is still a positive.

Like you said it would be great if Ben practiced on this touch. I am in Pats country so I see this all the time with Wes.


I don't think anyone who watches Ben play would mistake him for a timing QB. Whether this is because he dislikes it, doesn't trust his WRs, or he can't read a pre-snap defense well enough to know where to throw I can't really say. But we have plenty of evidence that Ben doesn't throw many timing passes.

jj28west
01-01-2013, 09:39 PM
If you even look at his deep balls to Wallace when they were beginning to connect. It took some time for BB to gage Wallace but then again so would many other QBs.


I don't think anyone who watches Ben play would mistake him for a timing QB. Whether this is because he dislikes it, doesn't trust his WRs, or he can't read a pre-snap defense well enough to know where to throw I can't really say. But we have plenty of evidence that Ben doesn't throw many timing passes.

DBR96A
01-01-2013, 09:59 PM
I don't think anyone who watches Ben play would mistake him for a timing QB. Whether this is because he dislikes it, doesn't trust his WRs, or he can't read a pre-snap defense well enough to know where to throw I can't really say. But we have plenty of evidence that Ben doesn't throw many timing passes.

As far as I'm concerned, if he couldn't read a defense, then he wouldn't have had less than 2% of his passes intercepted in two of the last three seasons.

I know he's been burnt by "throwing to a spot" in the past. When the Steelers played the Bengals in Cincinnati in 2009, Santonio Holmes was supposed to be Ben's hot read in the event of a blitz (which there was), and Ben threw it to where Holmes was supposed to be, but the only person there was Johnathan Joseph, who intercepted it for a TD in a game the Steelers ultimately lost by three. You gotta remember that the Steelers have had plenty of mental midgets at WR since Ben's been with the team, so maybe he'd rather just wait for them to get open before he throws it. Besides, even if it's the WR's fault, everybody's just gonna blame Ben if he throws an INT.

NorthCoast
01-01-2013, 10:43 PM
As far as I'm concerned, if he couldn't read a defense, then he wouldn't have had less than 2% of his passes intercepted in two of the last three seasons.

I know he's been burnt by "throwing to a spot" in the past. When the Steelers played the Bengals in Cincinnati in 2009, Santonio Holmes was supposed to be Ben's hot read in the event of a blitz (which there was), and Ben threw it to where Holmes was supposed to be, but the only person there was Johnathan Joseph, who intercepted it for a TD in a game the Steelers ultimately lost by three. You gotta remember that the Steelers have had plenty of mental midgets at WR since Ben's been with the team, so maybe he'd rather just wait for them to get open before he throws it. Besides, even if it's the WR's fault, everybody's just gonna blame Ben if he throws an INT.

Another explanation of his low INTs might be that he only throws when the WRs have separated from the DBs, i.e. holds the ball longer, not because of his 'read'. An interesting question would be how many completions are to the 2nd 3rd or 4th option?

DBR96A
01-02-2013, 12:18 AM
Another explanation of his low INTs might be that he only throws when the WRs have separated from the DBs, i.e. holds the ball longer, not because of his 'read'. An interesting question would be how many completions are to the 2nd 3rd or 4th option?

Probably more than we realize, and definitely more than some people want to believe.

I distinctly remember Cris Collinsworth showing Roethlisberger going through his progressions on a play during a game a few years ago, and illustrating how he'd progressed to his sixth read before he threw the ball. (The sixth read was actually him just going back to his first read after going through all five and finding nobody open.) A few plays later Collinsworth said something to the effect of, "That time he had to go all the way to his fifth read." It's moments like these that make me question those who question Roethlisberger's discipline and football intelligence.

kindlecatsb'ng
01-02-2013, 08:10 AM
Probably more than we realize, and definitely more than some people want to believe.

I distinctly remember Cris Collinsworth showing Roethlisberger going through his progressions on a play during a game a few years ago, and illustrating how he'd progressed to his sixth read before he threw the ball. (The sixth read was actually him just going back to his first read after going through all five and finding nobody open.) A few plays later Collinsworth said something to the effect of, "That time he had to go all the way to his fifth read." It's moments like these that make me question those who question Roethlisberger's discipline and football intelligence.

Ben's play that keeps getting referred to as "backlot or backyard" (or whatever term that is used and sounds derogatory) goes to natural instinctive play somewhat like Troy does on the defense--at least that is how I compare the style of play. That comes from innate natural talent and judgement.

With the QB and WRs/TE there has to be some sync and symmetry to have it come together. This year with the #17 holdout and the new OC, rhythm has to be re-established in the general scheme of things and/or refinement of some technique(s). That takes some time especially if the philosophy has greatly changed, where once was reflexive now needs some cognitive thought to make it happen. The 'new' plan/style of play has to become instinctual again. Then it all got derailed with injury to Ben.

I recall Ryan Clark talking about his learning to play alongside of Troy--and learning Troy's style of play so they can be complimentary of each others strength. What Troy does cannot be taught; maybe that is the same with Ben.