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View Full Version : Two reasons you don't take a ILB with a high pick in round 1:



BigRob
12-27-2012, 03:28 PM
No need to spend a high 1st round pick on an ILB or 4-3 LB. Their are future pro-bowlers are these positions in the 2nd round and beyond.


Bobby Wagner, MLB, Seattle. After starting the year with Wagner in a two-down role (the Seahawks initially took him out on passing downs), Seattle realized by Week 5 this was a waste of his all-round ability. Since then he's missed only six snaps, excepting when he was allowed to rest during garbage time of the recent blowouts of Arizona and Buffalo.
His primary job, though, is still run defense, and in that regard he couldn't have done better than his first ranked position in run-stop percentage (a metric that looks at tackles made in the running game that constitute a defeat for the offense), edging Derrick Johnson and NaVorro Bowman among middle linebackers.
He has not been outstanding in coverage, but has made few major errors and never looks out of place. His 0.88 yards allowed per coverage snap through Week 15 ranks him 21st among 48 qualifying inside linebackers, and while he has allowed two touchdowns he has also made three interceptions. Detractors may point to him being quieter in the last half of the season (the Arizona game aside), but he's never played poorly.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20121224/peter-king-monday-morning-quarterback-week-16/#ixzz2GHYJQNsy (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20121224/peter-king-monday-morning-quarterback-week-16/#ixzz2GHYJQNsy)


Lavonte David, OLB, Tampa Bay. A full-time starter from day one, David hasn't missed a single snap since Week 6. Like Wagner, he also leads his position (4-3 outside linebackers) in run stop percentage and has a particular penchant for making tackles for loss, where his 17, not including sacks, leads the league, just ahead of J.J. Watt. The bottom line here is that he is a very high quality run defender who loves to attack. Like Wagner, his coverage skills are average. However, he has allowed five touchdowns while picking up only one interception, which doesn't stand in his favor.

Another difference is that David is used to blitz much more frequently (23 percent of passing plays compared to 10 percent for Wagner) and while he has at least hurried the quarterback 18 times, statistically this isn't a good reward for 143 blitzes.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20121224/peter-king-monday-morning-quarterback-week-16/#ixzz2GHYVxdaD (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl/news/20121224/peter-king-monday-morning-quarterback-week-16/#ixzz2GHYVxdaD)

hawaiiansteel
12-27-2012, 03:42 PM
I would take Manti Te'o if he was available when we select in Round 1.

flippy
12-27-2012, 03:53 PM
As a general rule of thumb, I agree. But another overarching rule to consider is get the biggest impact player you can. If you can get a Patrick Willis, I'm totally down with taking him in the first round.

If we pick in the first round and Teo is available and is the next Willis, grab him.

tiproast
12-27-2012, 03:55 PM
If we pick in the first round and Teo is available and is the next Willis, grab him.
Why wouldn't the Steelers be picking in the first round? Do you think they're likely to trade down for more picks?

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 03:55 PM
Hear we go again......straight rolly eyes.

I am all for taking the best player available on the board. This team has a lot of needs..but if Manti Te'o is there I take him in a heart beat.

Those LB's you named above are the exception to the rule. That is not the norm in the NFL and they are both 4-3 LB's who would not fit in a 3-4 zone blitz. That makes a huge difference. Do you recall the last second round LB the Steelers drafted? A guy who had actually played in a 3-4 at times in college? How much did you get out of him in year one?

BigRob
12-27-2012, 03:57 PM
As a general rule of thumb, I agree. But another overarching rule to consider is get the biggest impact player you can. If you can get a Patrick Willis, I'm totally down with taking him in the first round.

If we pick in the first round and Teo is available and is the next Willis, grab him.

I like Te'o, but he is not Patrick Willis. He is not even close to that kind of physical specimen athletically. Willis came into the league with a ton of potential and room to grow. Te'o has hit his ceiling as a player for the most part. What you see is what you get (admittedly pretty damn good).

I am very curious to see Te'o against Alabama's offense. He will be playing against an O-line in which every player will be in the pros over the next few years.

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 04:22 PM
I like Te'o, but he is not Patrick Willis. He is not even close to that kind of physical specimen athletically. Willis came into the league with a ton of potential and room to grow. Te'o has hit his ceiling as a player for the most part. What you see is what you get (admittedly pretty damn good).

I am very curious to see Te'o against Alabama's offense. He will be playing against an O-line in which every player will be in the pros over the next few years.

Then why has Te'o steadily improved every year at Notre Dame?

If you had the ability to correctly identify a players ceiling at age 22 then you should be a scout......

....but then again if you are going to base something on just one game (Te'o versus Alabama), then you may not make a very good scout.

flippy
12-27-2012, 04:25 PM
Why wouldn't the Steelers be picking in the first round? Do you think they're likely to trade down for more picks?

Not an English major here. Maybe I should have said If Teo is available when we pick in the first round....

I heard Cedrick Wilson's looking for some smart people to help him pass some teaching tests. ;)

BigRob
12-27-2012, 04:27 PM
Then why has Te'o steadily improved every year at Notre Dame?

If you had the ability to correctly identify a players ceiling at age 22 then you should be a scout......

....but then again if you are going to base something on just one game (Te'o versus Alabama), then you may not make a very good scout.

I'm not a professional scout, and neither are you. We're message board prognosticators. Wrong more than right.

All I said was that I am curious to see what Te'o does against the best team in College FB.

BigRob
12-27-2012, 04:28 PM
Hear we go again......straight rolly eyes.

I am all for taking the best player available on the board. This team has a lot of needs..but if Manti Te'o is there I take him in a heart beat.

Those LB's you named above are the exception to the rule. That is not the norm in the NFL and they are both 4-3 LB's who would not fit in a 3-4 zone blitz. That makes a huge difference. Do you recall the last second round LB the Steelers drafted? A guy who had actually played in a 3-4 at times in college? How much did you get out of him in year one?

Heard of Sean Lee? Was he an exception to the rule? How about Navarrow Bowman?

Fact is that ILB is not as crucial a position as it once was. This is a passing league and there is often only one ILB on the field at a time. We already have one stud ILB that plays in passing situations. We don't need to waste a high pick on another one.

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 04:43 PM
Heard of Sean Lee? Was he an exception to the rule? How about Navarrow Bowman?

Fact is that ILB is not as crucial a position as it once was. This is a passing league and there is often only one ILB on the field at a time. We already have one stud ILB that plays in passing situations. We don't need to waste a high pick on another one.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wait a minute. We are talking about second round picks who came into the league and made an impact their first year. Neither Lee or Bowman did much in their first year in the league.

Rob can we at least keep this discussion the same without changing it?

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 04:45 PM
...
Fact is that ILB is not as crucial a position as it once was. This is a passing league and there is often only one ILB on the field at a time. We already have one stud ILB that plays in passing situations. We don't need to waste a high pick on another one.

So you are saying that adding Te'o to play next to Timmons wouldn't improve the Steelers? That by doing so would be a waste of a pick?

BigRob
12-27-2012, 04:47 PM
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wait a minute. We are talking about second round picks who came into the league and made an impact their first year. Neither Lee or Bowman did much in their first year in the league.

Rob can we at least keep this discussion the same without changing it?

This wasn't about year one impact. Never said this discussion was about year one impact. This was about drafting players for the long term. Please stop with the year one impact thing. That is short sighted draft strategy. The Steelers draft for the long term, not the short term.

Uhh No, I am saying you don't need to draft ILB in round one to get pro bowl players. ILB has become a 2nd round position.

BigRob
12-27-2012, 04:49 PM
So you are saying that adding Te'o to play next to Timmons wouldn't improve the Steelers? That by doing so would be a waste of a pick?

Defenses are changing, your not going to stay in your base defense all game long. So who sits when the Steelers go into their Nickel looks? Te'o or Timmons?

Why draft a player that high who is going to be standing on the sidelines?

Much rather have LT,CB,S, or a Pass Rusher in the first round.

RuthlessBurgher
12-27-2012, 06:51 PM
Defenses are changing, your not going to stay in your base defense all game long. So who sits when the Steelers go into their Nickel looks? Te'o or Timmons?

Why draft a player that high who is going to be standing on the sidelines?

Much rather have LT,CB,S, or a Pass Rusher in the first round.

In the nickel, you have a 4 man DL and 2 ILB, so they would both be out there.

When you go to dime, you'd have a 4 man DL and 1 ILB (you could use Te'o inside, and have Timmons put his hand in the dirt as a DE...granted, he wasn't a great replacement as a 3-4 OLB, but maybe he's better as a rush end in a 4 man line instead). We could also go with a 3 man DL in dime with 2 ILB, rushing either Timmons or Te'o from the inside (the offense wouldn't know which one).

BigRob
12-27-2012, 06:58 PM
In the nickel, you have a 4 man DL and 2 ILB, so they would both be out there.

When you go to dime, you'd have a 4 man DL and 1 ILB (you could use Te'o inside, and have Timmons put his hand in the dirt as a DE...granted, he wasn't a great replacement as a 3-4 OLB, but maybe he's better as a rush end in a 4 man line instead). We could also go with a 3 man DL in dime with 2 ILB, rushing either Timmons or Te'o from the inside (the offense wouldn't know which one).

We played a lot of Dime this year. Why ask Timmons to do something you know he is not good at? Christ the man had 3 interceptions this year. We know he can hold down the middle.

No need to waste a pick on a devalued position when you already have one stud ILB. Te'o and Timmons strength is coverage. We don't need another Timmons clone.

We can pick up an ILB in the 2nd or 3rd and be just fine. Use your first pick on a value position LT,CB, or a Pass Rusher.

Mister Pittsburgh
12-27-2012, 07:09 PM
There are stars at every position in every round. BPA.

steelz09
12-27-2012, 07:30 PM
I'm a big fan of Manti Te'o but I don't think he is the best LB in this draft.

I think that honor would go to Jarvis Jones (Georgia).

BigRob
12-27-2012, 07:32 PM
I'm a big fan of Manti Te'o but I don't think he is the best LB in this draft.

I think that honor would go to Jarvis Jones (Georgia).

If he was a true linebacker I would agree.

steelz09
12-27-2012, 07:35 PM
He's a OLB. What is your definition of "true" LB?

EDIT: I didn't see the 'I' in 'ILB' in this thread title :)

BigRob
12-27-2012, 07:38 PM
He's a OLB. What is your definition of "true" LB?

He's a rush end. He's not a WLB,MLB/ILB, or a SLB.

pfelix73
12-27-2012, 07:42 PM
Oh God. More talk of another OL in round 1. IF Teo is there, he's a Stiller.

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 07:43 PM
This wasn't about year one impact. Never said this discussion was about year one impact. This was about drafting players for the long term. Please stop with the year one impact thing. That is short sighted draft strategy. The Steelers draft for the long term, not the short term.

Uhh No, I am saying you don't need to draft ILB in round one to get pro bowl players. ILB has become a 2nd round position.

But that is what you should be getting if you are drafting 11th or 12th. An immediate impact player.

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 07:46 PM
In the nickel, you have a 4 man DL and 2 ILB, so they would both be out there.

When you go to dime, you'd have a 4 man DL and 1 ILB (you could use Te'o inside, and have Timmons put his hand in the dirt as a DE...granted, he wasn't a great replacement as a 3-4 OLB, but maybe he's better as a rush end in a 4 man line instead). We could also go with a 3 man DL in dime with 2 ILB, rushing either Timmons or Te'o from the inside (the offense wouldn't know which one).

Thank you Ruthless!

If LeBeau had this luxury you can bet he would be doing everything possible to always have the best 11 on the field. Playmakers make plays regardless of what down it is.

BigRob
12-27-2012, 07:46 PM
But that is what you should be getting if you are drafting 11th or 12th. An immediate impact player.

Thats not reality. Reality is that the college players need time to adjust to the nfl unless they are unbelievably special. Not getting that at 11 or 12 this year.

steelz09
12-27-2012, 07:47 PM
He's a rush end. He's not a WLB,MLB/ILB, or a SLB.

He can cover as well. He's a playmaker and we need playmakers in a bad way. Jones needs to bulk up a bit. At 6-2, he's 242.

Either way, I'd take Teo or Jones.

BigRob
12-27-2012, 07:47 PM
Reality is also that the Browns are not beating the Steelers with Thaddeus Lewis as their QB. Steelers are not picking 11 or 12.

I would consider Te'o at pick 15 and lower, but someone will buy the hype machine and draft him in the top 10 picks.

NorthCoast
12-27-2012, 07:48 PM
According to many draft sites, Teo is gone by the 5th pick. I don't see the Steelers trading that far up for the guy.
Time to move on with a more realistic pick.

BigRob
12-27-2012, 07:49 PM
But that is what you should be getting if you are drafting 11th or 12th. An immediate impact player.

It is also quite possible to get impact players in the 2nd. Hence my posting of Lavonte David and Bobby Wagner this year.

Many more examples are available. Lofa Tatupu in 2005 anyone?

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 07:52 PM
We played a lot of Dime this year. Why ask Timmons to do something you know he is not good at? Christ the man had 3 interceptions this year. We know he can hold down the middle.

No need to waste a pick on a devalued position when you already have one stud ILB. Te'o and Timmons strength is coverage. We don't need another Timmons clone.

We can pick up an ILB in the 2nd or 3rd and be just fine. Use your first pick on a value position LT,CB, or a Pass Rusher.

LaMarr Woodley has played with a hand on the ground.

Keisel, Heyward, Hood, and Woodley across with Te'o and Timmons inside. And from the Inside either one of those guys can drop or rush the passer. Or they both can drop. This gives Le Beau a lot more options than he has now.

The idea with their first round pick Rob, is get the best player on the board who also happens to fill a need. Dont draft for biggest need and wind up with a lesser valued player and dont hope can pick up a certain position later on in the draft. That isnt the smart way to draft.

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 07:53 PM
I'm a big fan of Manti Te'o but I don't think he is the best LB in this draft.

I think that honor would go to Jarvis Jones (Georgia).

Agreed but he more than likely goes top 5 if not number 1 overall.

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 07:54 PM
He's a OLB. What is your definition of "true" LB?

EDIT: I didn't see the 'I' in 'ILB' in this thread title :)

Not only that but Georgia plays a 3-4 just like the Steelers. Not sure why Rob thinks he isnt a true LB.

BigRob
12-27-2012, 07:57 PM
Not only that but Georgia plays a 3-4 just like the Steelers. Not sure why Rob thinks he isnt a true LB.

3-4 OLB'ers are rush ends. They are not considered pure Linebackers. They are "Tweeners". Jarvis Jones is NOT a pure linebacker. He is a pass rusher first.

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 07:59 PM
He's a rush end. He's not a WLB,MLB/ILB, or a SLB.

Dont agree. He does drop in coverage. Regardless, 12.5 sacks with 22.5 TFL's and 7 FF's, he is a big time play maker. And his 77 overall tackles shows he is more than just a rush end.

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 08:02 PM
Dont agree. He does drop in coverage. Regardless, 12.5 sacks with 22.5 TFL's and 7 FF's, he is a big time play maker. And his 77 overall tackles shows he is more than just a rush end.


It is also quite possible to get impact players in the 2nd. Hence my posting of Lavonte David and Bobby Wagner this year.

Many more examples are available. Lofa Tatupu in 2005 anyone?

None of which play in a 3-4 or had to change positions in the pros. Big difference.

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 08:03 PM
Dont agree. He does drop in coverage. Regardless, 12.5 sacks with 22.5 TFL's and 7 FF's, he is a big time play maker. And his 77 overall tackles shows he is more than just a rush end.


He can cover as well. He's a playmaker and we need playmakers in a bad way. Jones needs to bulk up a bit. At 6-2, he's 242.

Either way, I'd take Teo or Jones.

You are right on with this steelz09. And I'd take Jones or Te'o too.

Dee Dub
12-27-2012, 08:07 PM
Dont agree. He does drop in coverage. Regardless, 12.5 sacks with 22.5 TFL's and 7 FF's, he is a big time play maker. And his 77 overall tackles shows he is more than just a rush end.


According to many draft sites, Teo is gone by the 5th pick. I don't see the Steelers trading that far up for the guy.
Time to move on with a more realistic pick.

Maybe so, but with QB being the premium position every year teams reach high (often too high), on QB out of desperation. Geno Smith and Matt Barkley will play a huge roll in many players dropping that shouldn't have. I personally think if Te'o gets past the Buffalo Bills (who have a ton of other needs), he will more than likely be draft anywhere from 10-14.

BigRob
12-27-2012, 08:22 PM
None of which play in a 3-4 or had to change positions in the pros. Big difference.

Gods Be Damned its laughable how many people think its some mythical transformation to play in the 3-4 versus the 4-3. Its a much harder transition for 3-4 OLB than it is for the 3-4 ILB.

BigRob
12-27-2012, 08:23 PM
Dont agree. He does drop in coverage. Regardless, 12.5 sacks with 22.5 TFL's and 7 FF's, he is a big time play maker. And his 77 overall tackles shows he is more than just a rush end.

Doesn't make him a traditional Linebacker period. Traditional Linebackers primary role is not to rush the passer. That WAS Jones' primary role as well as setting the edge in the run game.

Don't get me wrong. I would take Jarvis Jones in a hot minute. Especially over Te'o.

BigRob
12-27-2012, 08:25 PM
Maybe so, but with QB being the premium position every year teams reach high (often too high), on QB out of desperation. Geno Smith and Matt Barkley will play a huge roll in many players dropping that shouldn't have. I personally think if Te'o gets past the Buffalo Bills (who have a ton of other needs), he will more than likely be draft anywhere from 10-14.

He's not going to slide anymore than Kuechly did. That doesn't mean we should be selecting an ILB that high. Just my personal opinion of course.

Oviedo
12-27-2012, 08:37 PM
3-4 OLB'ers are rush ends. They are not considered pure Linebackers. They are "Tweeners". Jarvis Jones is NOT a pure linebacker. He is a pass rusher first.

That sounds better to me than a guy who plays the run. Especially given our three year trend of decreasing sacks.

Oviedo
12-27-2012, 08:39 PM
Gods Be Damned its laughable how many people think its some mythical transformation to play in the 3-4 versus the 4-3. Its a much harder transition for 3-4 OLB than it is for the 3-4 ILB.


Totally agree about the 3-4 OLB. That is why playing the 3-4 gets you into depth issues because the conversion of college DEs to 3-4 OLB is not a for sure thing. As a matter of fact I doubt 50% are truly successful and become game changing players..

Chadman
12-27-2012, 08:42 PM
Dominate the LOS first, and then 'moderate' skill-level players look better. The Steelers don't dominate the LOS at the moment- get that fixed and guys like Larry Foote look pretty darn good. Guys like Jonathon Dwyer get to maximise their skill levels. Dominate the LOS, and we'll be able to run on the opposition, take time off the clck, keep the defence fresh, or take the run away, collapse the pocket, rush the QB with more success.

if Chane Warmack, Jesse Williams or Kawaan Short are available, Chadman would be giving them long looks.

Oviedo
12-27-2012, 08:44 PM
Dominate the LOS first, and then 'moderate' skill-level players look better. The Steelers don't dominate the LOS at the moment- get that fixed and guys like Larry Foote look pretty darn good. Guys like Jonathon Dwyer get to maximise their skill levels. Dominate the LOS, and we'll be able to run on the opposition, take time off the clck, keep the defence fresh, or take the run away, collapse the pocket, rush the QB with more success.

if Chane Warmack, Jesse Williams or Kawaan Short are available, Chadman would be giving them long looks.

Yes to Chance Warmack. We need to get back to dominating the LOS not watching Ramon Foster getting rag dolled into the backfield by a Bumgals DT.

BigRob
12-27-2012, 08:44 PM
Dominate the LOS first, and then 'moderate' skill-level players look better. The Steelers don't dominate the LOS at the moment- get that fixed and guys like Larry Foote look pretty darn good. Guys like Jonathon Dwyer get to maximise their skill levels. Dominate the LOS, and we'll be able to run on the opposition, take time off the clck, keep the defence fresh, or take the run away, collapse the pocket, rush the QB with more success.

if Chane Warmack, Jesse Williams or Kawaan Short are available, Chadman would be giving them long looks.

Yes on Warmack and Williams, no on Short.

Chadman
12-27-2012, 08:58 PM
One LB that is interesting touch adman is Stanford's Chase Thomas- a smart LB that could be a useful 'switch' LB- either an ILB or OLB, depending on need. Right now, the Steelers don't know what they have in OLB Worilds or ILB Spence. Adding a guy like Thomas covers both spots.

steelz09
12-27-2012, 09:09 PM
Gods Be Damned its laughable how many people think its some mythical transformation to play in the 3-4 versus the 4-3. Its a much harder transition for 3-4 OLB than it is for the 3-4 ILB.

BigRob - We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I played at OLB in a 3-4 and I personally think ILB in a 3-4 is a more difficult position to master.

tiproast
12-27-2012, 11:08 PM
Not an English major here. Maybe I should have said If Teo is available when we pick in the first round....

I heard Cedrick Wilson's looking for some smart people to help him pass some teaching tests. ;)

I don't think that knowing the meaning of a two-letter word qualifies me as an English major.

(But maybe it does, in Pittsburgh. :D)

Eddie Spaghetti
12-27-2012, 11:55 PM
Yes to Chance Warmack. We need to get back to dominating the LOS not watching Ramon Foster getting rag dolled into the backfield by a Bumgals DT.

it never ends with you and foster. Its always this guys fault.

never mind him being out of position and the other two interior OL getting manhandled as well.

lets say we draft another OG in the 1st round and by some miracle they all turn into the probowlers you seem to think we need at every position along the OL. What then when their contracts come up? Tie up 25 million dollars into three spots in the middle of the field in a league where everything is going to more spread formations?

I'm not sure I see value in that.

flippy
12-28-2012, 10:01 AM
I don't think that knowing the meaning of a two-letter word qualifies me as an English major.

(But maybe it does, in Pittsburgh. :D)

Everyone seems brilliant when you have a 2 number IQ. :)

flippy
12-28-2012, 10:06 AM
lets say we draft another OG in the 1st round and by some miracle they all turn into the probowlers you seem to think we need at every position along the OL. What then when their contracts come up? Tie up 25 million dollars into three spots in the middle of the field in a league where everything is going to more spread formations?

I'm not sure I see value in that.

I get your point. But when no one sees value, that's when value really exists. If teams are built to stop spread formations, they all just might have trouble stopping the run between the tackles. Zigging when others Zag can give you a competitive advantage.

Chadman
12-28-2012, 10:21 AM
Would just like to see the Steelers take control of the LOS. It's been some time since we last saw 'dominance' along the lines, and it'd be nice to get back there. One thing Tomlin has had no trouble doing since being hired is adding 'skill' players throughout the draft- particularly in those middle rounds- Wallace, Brown, Sanders, Allen, Lewis, Dwyer, Rainey.

Where he has yet to succeed is in giving these skill players the proper platform to succeed. That'd be the LOS. Last couple of years have added a DeCastro, Hood, Gilbert, Heyward, Adams & Pouncey. They are slowly (in some cases) working their way into the line-up. They'll be good, Chadman is pretty sure.

But we still lack that dominant 'bull' at NT to replace Hampton (McLendon seems a decent player, but even in Hampton's down year, he hasn't been good enough to stand out & replace Hampton- so don't try to convince Chadman that he's the answer) & Willie Colon is starting to be salary cap prohibitive.

Finish the job of re-stacking the Lines. Once they start dominating again, even the lesser skilled 'skill players' will start to be more consistant & successful, as the big hogs will make their job easier.

flippy
12-28-2012, 10:52 AM
Once they start dominating again, even the lesser skilled 'skill players' will start to be more consistant & successful, as the big hogs will make their job easier.

Even Big Ben. :)

RuthlessBurgher
12-28-2012, 11:31 AM
He's not going to slide anymore than Kuechly did. That doesn't mean we should be selecting an ILB that high. Just my personal opinion of course.

I didn't think DeCastro would slide either, but since guards aren't highly valued anymore, he did.

I like Jarvis Jones, Star Lotulelei, and Manti Te'o, but of those three, the elite level pass rusher and the immovable object inside are not likely to fall out of the top 5 (those guys you'd need to trade up to get, and unfortunately, we don't have the ammo to do so). The only one there that I could potentially see sliding like DeCastro did would be the inside backer, since that is an undervalued position in the new NFL just like guard. You can possibly get top 10 talents in the middle of the first round (or later) if they don't play a position of premium value. Just saying that if he slides, we should take Te'o. If Jones or Lotulelei slid, I'd jump all over them as well, but that has an infinitesimal chance of happening in my mind.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-28-2012, 12:54 PM
First off...I can't believe anyone thinks an OL will be the 1st pick. I'm baffled many are going there. Enough time spent on that.

To the topic, you can't pull success stories and say "You don't have to because". Line up other positions and you can pull the same results.

Here is the bottom line. You can't miss on the 1st. The higher up you pick the greater the urgency. You look for "Your guy" and cross you fingers. But if somone is there that you graded out much higher, you don't pass. This draft will be heavy early on defense. Argue...Say what you want...Throw out scenarios...There is no doubt.

If Te'o is still there barring any type of disasterous combine, the Steelers may beat the anouncement of the pick before to the podium. If a guy like Moore falls...They will be writing on the card as they walk to the podium. There are so many other names that fit the bill but make no mistake...It will be a defensive player.

Things the Steelers can control will be adressed before the draft. Everyone has already punched Wallace's ticket. Nobody thinks they will or can pay Lewis to keep him here. Mendy is already on the bus out of town. Very seldom the Steelers let young talent walk out the door. Do not be surprised with moves in the offseason that send fan favorites to the streets to keep young players who we already closed the door behind. What does an 8-8 or 7-9 season say to a team who had high goals? It answers financial questions about the vet core. It closes that chapter of many great players. The Steelers face the task of paying youthful talent versus holding on to highly paid accomplished vets at the end of their careers. They are at the fork in the road after 2011 & 2012 and the one direction says "Dead End". They stood looking at both paths for 2012. Prepare your jaw to drop over the next 6 months. It isn't going to be pretty but at the same time it will be sweet for the long term.

BigRob
12-28-2012, 01:55 PM
First off...I can't believe anyone thinks an OL will be the 1st pick. I'm baffled many are going there. Enough time spent on that.

To the topic, you can't pull success stories and say "You don't have to because". Line up other positions and you can pull the same results.

Here is the bottom line. You can't miss on the 1st. The higher up you pick the greater the urgency. You look for "Your guy" and cross you fingers. But if somone is there that you graded out much higher, you don't pass. This draft will be heavy early on defense. Argue...Say what you want...Throw out scenarios...There is no doubt.

If Te'o is still there barring any type of disasterous combine, the Steelers may beat the anouncement of the pick before to the podium. If a guy like Moore falls...They will be writing on the card as they walk to the podium. There are so many other names that fit the bill but make no mistake...It will be a defensive player.

Things the Steelers can control will be adressed before the draft. Everyone has already punched Wallace's ticket. Nobody thinks they will or can pay Lewis to keep him here. Mendy is already on the bus out of town. Very seldom the Steelers let young talent walk out the door. Do not be surprised with moves in the offseason that send fan favorites to the streets to keep young players who we already closed the door behind. What does an 8-8 or 7-9 season say to a team who had high goals? It answers financial questions about the vet core. It closes that chapter of many great players. The Steelers face the task of paying youthful talent versus holding on to highly paid accomplished vets at the end of their careers. They are at the fork in the road after 2011 & 2012 and the one direction says "Dead End". They stood looking at both paths for 2012. Prepare your jaw to drop over the next 6 months. It isn't going to be pretty but at the same time it will be sweet for the long term.

Good post. Gives us an opportunity to transition the conversation.

All I am saying is if a Jarvis Jones, Dion Jordan, Damontrone Moore, or Hankins is available to us at pick 11, I take all of them before I take Te'o.

Just my personal opinion.

focosteeler
12-28-2012, 02:18 PM
One LB that is interesting touch adman is Stanford's Chase Thomas- a smart LB that could be a useful 'switch' LB- either an ILB or OLB, depending on need. Right now, the Steelers don't know what they have in OLB Worilds or ILB Spence. Adding a guy like Thomas covers both spots.

:Agree Only thing I see is that they could have more spots at ILB if Foote and B Johnson leave compared to just Harrison if he gets cut. There is no real depth behind Foote so I think you have to take a real ILB that has the ability to help early.

JUST-PLAIN-NASTY
12-28-2012, 02:39 PM
Good post. Gives us an opportunity to transition the conversation.

All I am saying is if a Jarvis Jones, Dion Jordan, Damontrone Moore, or Hankins is available to us at pick 11, I take all of them before I take Te'o.

Just my personal opinion.

We all have our reasons & players we like. I will take your above scenario. Keep in mind this is my preference sitting as a Steeler GM right now. I would only have Jones, Moore, & Te'o in the conversation as far as my grading. I would have Jordan & Hankins much lower. Here comes the "crazy" but this is my preference.

My first choice would be Moore. He will be 20 on draft day and turn 21 in season. He has that "It" factor to be a difference maker. Will see the field game 1. My second choice would be Te'O. He will be 21 on draft day. I need to see him in position drills and look at his cone times & 10 yard split. He may jump ahead of Moore when it is all said & done. As a Steeler GM...I have them rated about the same & since a pass rusher trumps the ILB I go with Moore. Believe it or not, I have Jones as my third choice. Jones will turn 24 during the season. A bigger concern is his medical. His 2009 neck injury has me rating him lower. He was diahnosed with spinal stenosis. It was bad enough for USC not to clear him to play again and he transfered to Georgia who cleared him. Jones was a highly productive player at Georgia but his medical & age has him dropping on my board.

BigRob
12-28-2012, 03:31 PM
We all have our reasons & players we like. I will take your above scenario. Keep in mind this is my preference sitting as a Steeler GM right now. I would only have Jones, Moore, & Te'o in the conversation as far as my grading. I would have Jordan & Hankins much lower. Here comes the "crazy" but this is my preference.

My first choice would be Moore. He will be 20 on draft day and turn 21 in season. He has that "It" factor to be a difference maker. Will see the field game 1. My second choice would be Te'O. He will be 21 on draft day. I need to see him in position drills and look at his cone times & 10 yard split. He may jump ahead of Moore when it is all said & done. As a Steeler GM...I have them rated about the same & since a pass rusher trumps the ILB I go with Moore. Believe it or not, I have Jones as my third choice. Jones will turn 24 during the season. A bigger concern is his medical. His 2009 neck injury has me rating him lower. He was diahnosed with spinal stenosis. It was bad enough for USC not to clear him to play again and he transfered to Georgia who cleared him. Jones was a highly productive player at Georgia but his medical & age has him dropping on my board.

I agree Jones has medical issues that may drop him. However, I do not think we will be picking low enough to grab Te'o or Moore.

Moore is going to benefit from the Von Miller effect. Te'o is getting all of the hype with Notre Dames' season. I don't think Te'o is that great of an athlete. I think that will show up in the game against Alabama. I know it is only one game, but it will be a good test for Te'o.

However, I do think that Dion Jordan, Jarvis Jones (Medical Reasons), Jesse Williams, and Ezekiel Ansah will be available where we pick. Who do you take out of these players?

I would take them in this order. Jones, Jordan, Williams, Ansah.

Oviedo
12-28-2012, 03:42 PM
lets say we draft another OG in the 1st round and by some miracle they all turn into the probowlers you seem to think we need at every position along the OL. What then when their contracts come up? Tie up 25 million dollars into three spots in the middle of the field in a league where everything is going to more spread formations?

I'm not sure I see value in that.

You mean you don't see the value but isn't that exactly what we have done for years to make sweet LeBeau's LB grouping among the best in the league. Aren't we paying something like $25M per season for our four LBs? Something like $16M plus for our two "great" OLBs to get a grand total of 9 sacks? That's the problem. We have been willing to invest for years on the defense and go bargain baement on offense and then we want to blame the offense for all of our faults. We need a much better OL. This is an offense first league not a defense first league. Our great #1 ranking is worthless.

You don't hesitate to criticize my views on players when you have just as much deeply rooted prejudices on your end of the spectrum. You look at any UDFA who makes the team and immediately create "folk hero" status about them like they should get a break just because they started out as a UDFA. Foster is a player on the OL we can do better than. He has to play against the same opposing talent whether he came to the team as a FA, UDFA or #1 pick. No matter what you say he isn't a dominant player and the standard for him isn't lower because he made it as an UDFA. He got ragdolled last week by Atkins and was driven back into the backfield repeatedly. Yes DeCastro did too but one was playing his second pro game and one was a three year vet and two year starter and the latter player is the one you want to make excuses for.

We'll never agree on a lot but that doesn't make either one of us right or wrong.

Oviedo
12-28-2012, 03:43 PM
I agree Jones has medical issues that may drop him. However, I do not think we will be picking low enough to grab Te'o or Moore.

Moore is going to benefit from the Von Miller effect. Te'o is getting all of the hype with Notre Dames' season. I don't think Te'o is that great of an athlete. I think that will show up in the game against Alabama. I know it is only one game, but it will be a good test for Te'o.

However, I do think that Dion Jordan, Jarvis Jones (Medical Reasons), Jesse Williams, and Ezekiel Ansah will be available where we pick. Who do you take out of these players?

I would take them in this order. Jones, Jordan, Williams, Ansah.

I love Jones but why would you take a player with a medical red flag?

BigRob
12-28-2012, 03:56 PM
I love Jones but why would you take a player with a medical red flag?

Risk vs. Reward. I don't think his injury will keep him from playing, but it may shorten his career some.

Dee Dub
12-28-2012, 04:51 PM
I didn't think DeCastro would slide either, but since guards aren't highly valued anymore, he did.

I like Jarvis Jones, Star Lotulelei, and Manti Te'o, but of those three, the elite level pass rusher and the immovable object inside are not likely to fall out of the top 5 (those guys you'd need to trade up to get, and unfortunately, we don't have the ammo to do so). The only one there that I could potentially see sliding like DeCastro did would be the inside backer, since that is an undervalued position in the new NFL just like guard. You can possibly get top 10 talents in the middle of the first round (or later) if they don't play a position of premium value. Just saying that if he slides, we should take Te'o. If Jones or Lotulelei slid, I'd jump all over them as well, but that has an infinitesimal chance of happening in my mind.

I totally agree with this. Money post right here.

I think there is a very good chance Te'o last until the 10th pick and even possibly till the 13 pick. It's just how the draft goes. The elite pass rushers, the immovable object, a pair of legit LT's, and two QB's who teams will over draft for are going make a lesser valued position like ILB drop down the board.

Dee Dub
12-28-2012, 04:55 PM
First off...I can't believe anyone thinks an OL will be the 1st pick. I'm baffled many are going there. Enough time spent on that.

To the topic, you can't pull success stories and say "You don't have to because". Line up other positions and you can pull the same results.

Here is the bottom line. You can't miss on the 1st. The higher up you pick the greater the urgency. You look for "Your guy" and cross you fingers. But if somone is there that you graded out much higher, you don't pass. This draft will be heavy early on defense. Argue...Say what you want...Throw out scenarios...There is no doubt.

If Te'o is still there barring any type of disasterous combine, the Steelers may beat the anouncement of the pick before to the podium. If a guy like Moore falls...They will be writing on the card as they walk to the podium. There are so many other names that fit the bill but make no mistake...It will be a defensive player.

Things the Steelers can control will be adressed before the draft. Everyone has already punched Wallace's ticket. Nobody thinks they will or can pay Lewis to keep him here. Mendy is already on the bus out of town. Very seldom the Steelers let young talent walk out the door. Do not be surprised with moves in the offseason that send fan favorites to the streets to keep young players who we already closed the door behind. What does an 8-8 or 7-9 season say to a team who had high goals? It answers financial questions about the vet core. It closes that chapter of many great players. The Steelers face the task of paying youthful talent versus holding on to highly paid accomplished vets at the end of their careers. They are at the fork in the road after 2011 & 2012 and the one direction says "Dead End". They stood looking at both paths for 2012. Prepare your jaw to drop over the next 6 months. It isn't going to be pretty but at the same time it will be sweet for the long term.

And I think this too is money. Great post JPN. I am right there with you on this.

I personally believe that Te'o is a Junior Seau type who actually covers better. Maybe the Troy Polamalu of LBers. All over the place making plays.

Dee Dub
12-28-2012, 05:00 PM
We all have our reasons & players we like. I will take your above scenario. Keep in mind this is my preference sitting as a Steeler GM right now. I would only have Jones, Moore, & Te'o in the conversation as far as my grading. I would have Jordan & Hankins much lower. Here comes the "crazy" but this is my preference.

My first choice would be Moore. He will be 20 on draft day and turn 21 in season. He has that "It" factor to be a difference maker. Will see the field game 1. My second choice would be Te'O. He will be 21 on draft day. I need to see him in position drills and look at his cone times & 10 yard split. He may jump ahead of Moore when it is all said & done. As a Steeler GM...I have them rated about the same & since a pass rusher trumps the ILB I go with Moore. Believe it or not, I have Jones as my third choice. Jones will turn 24 during the season. A bigger concern is his medical. His 2009 neck injury has me rating him lower. He was diahnosed with spinal stenosis. It was bad enough for USC not to clear him to play again and he transfered to Georgia who cleared him. Jones was a highly productive player at Georgia but his medical & age has him dropping on my board.

I can see this but I would go Te'o, Jones, and then Moore. And my reason is the Steelers may have a legitimate/descent OLB in Worilds already. ILB is the center piece of a defense. Te'o's leadership/play calling will be huge to any team. And his trend the past 4 years has been to improve. He is disciplined and humble. He will represent the Burgh as a player should.

BigRob
12-28-2012, 05:03 PM
I totally agree with this. Money post right here.

I think there is a very good chance Te'o last until the 10th pick and even possibly till the 13 pick. It's just how the draft goes. The elite pass rushers, the immovable object, a pair of legit LT's, and two QB's who teams will over draft for are going make a lesser valued position like ILB drop down the board.

You really think the Steelers are going to lose to Thaddeus Lewis? Your dream is already dead. The Steelers will be 8-8 and will pick no where near 11. Te'o has a hype that will ensure he goes top 10-11.

And no, I am not trading picks to move up to 10 or 11. We need all of the picks we can get.

RuthlessBurgher
12-28-2012, 05:04 PM
I personally believe that Te'o is a Junior Seau type who actually covers better. Maybe the Troy Polamalu of LBers. All over the place making plays.

It's kinda funny how folks tend to compare, say, white wide receivers only to other white wide receivers (Danny Amendola is the next Wes Welker! Eric Decker is the next Ed McCaffery!) and now we can only compare Samoan defenders to other Samoan defenders (not saying anything about you in particular, D-Dub, just using your post to comment about pretty much everybody in general).

Dee Dub
12-28-2012, 05:08 PM
You really think the Steelers are going to lose to Thaddeus Lewis? Your dream is already dead. The Steelers will be 8-8 and will pick no where near 11. Te'o has a hype that will ensure he goes top 10-11.

And no, I am not trading picks to move up to 10 or 11. We need all of the picks we can get.

Well based on how the Steelers have played of late it is possible. Cleveland has a pretty good defense and they have been in almost every game. But if I were a beating man I'd pick the Steelers. They still should win...but how many times has that been said this year?

Dee Dub
12-28-2012, 05:10 PM
It's kinda funny how folks tend to compare, say, white wide receivers only to other white wide receivers (Danny Amendola is the next Wes Welker! Eric Decker is the next Ed McCaffery!) and now we can only compare Samoan defenders to other Samoan defenders (not saying anything about you in particular, D-Dub, just using your post to comment about pretty much everybody in general).

Well that is a true comparison (being Samoan), but it wouldn't mean a whole lot if their style of play wasn't similar.

BigRob
12-28-2012, 05:17 PM
Well based on how the Steelers have played of late it is possible. Cleveland has a pretty good defense and they have been in almost every game. But if I were a beating man I'd pick the Steelers. They still should win...but how many times has that been said this year?

If the Steelers manage to lose to Thaddeus Lewis and the hapless Browns with Big Ben and company pretty pissed off, I will have completed my Nostradamus of the year award. I predicted a 7-9 season at the very beginning of the year.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-28-2012, 05:25 PM
You mean you don't see the value but isn't that exactly what we have done for years to make sweet LeBeau's LB grouping among the best in the league. Aren't we paying something like $25M per season for our four LBs? Something like $16M plus for our two "great" OLBs to get a grand total of 9 sacks? That's the problem. We have been willing to invest for years on the defense and go bargain baement on offense and then we want to blame the offense for all of our faults. We need a much better OL. This is an offense first league not a defense first league. Our great #1 ranking is worthless.

You don't hesitate to criticize my views on players when you have just as much deeply rooted prejudices on your end of the spectrum. You look at any UDFA who makes the team and immediately create "folk hero" status about them like they should get a break just because they started out as a UDFA. Foster is a player on the OL we can do better than. He has to play against the same opposing talent whether he came to the team as a FA, UDFA or #1 pick. No matter what you say he isn't a dominant player and the standard for him isn't lower because he made it as an UDFA. He got ragdolled last week by Atkins and was driven back into the backfield repeatedly. Yes DeCastro did too but one was playing his second pro game and one was a three year vet and two year starter and the latter player is the one you want to make excuses for.

We'll never agree on a lot but that doesn't make either one of us right or wrong.

I congratulate you ovi, that's a lot of hyperbole for two paragraphs.

nowhere have I said foster is a "folk hero" only that he is a much better player than you give him credit for. You act like he is the sole reason for this offenses failure this year. I can assure you that there are much bigger issues than the RG spot. I'm certainly not making excuses for fosters play on sunday as he stunk right along with the two 1st round picks to his immediate right. My point is, and has always been, that I don't believe you need to have 1st round picks and probowlers at every position on the OL. I believe smarter playcalling and smarter QB play can solve a lot of problems this OL has. That, and staying healthy. They have 4 guys right now that were taken in the top 2 rounds within the last 3 years. That's plenty.

another 1st round OG seems like lunacy to me.

BigRob
12-28-2012, 05:26 PM
I congratulate you ovi, that's a lot of hyperbole for two paragraphs.

nowhere have I said foster is a "folk hero" only that he is a much better player than you give him credit for. You act like he is the sole reason for this offenses failure this year. I can assure you that there are much bigger issues than the RG spot. I'm certainly not making excuses for fosters play on sunday as he stunk right along with the two 1st round picks to his immediate right. My point is, and has always been, that I don't believe you need to have 1st round picks and probowlers at every position on the OL. I believe smarter playcalling and smarter QB play can solve a lot of problems this OL has. That, and staying healthy. They have 4 guys right now that were taken in the top 2 rounds within the last 3 years. That's plenty.

another 1st round OG seems like lunacy to me.

Well, Foster was certainly getting his azz kicked this weekend along with everyone else. Though we do agree about the no guard in the first round bit. It is a very deep draft for guard and one can be had later in the draft.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-28-2012, 05:29 PM
no problem admitting foster played poorly on sunday.

he has played well this season, overall IMO.

BigRob
12-28-2012, 05:43 PM
no problem admitting foster played poorly on sunday.

he has played well this season, overall IMO.

He's a very average guard. So is Colon.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-28-2012, 05:54 PM
He's a very average guard. So is Colon.

yeah, maybe.

but colon is much more expensive as was kemo the year before, but we never heard the outcry like we do with ovi about foster.

foster has been good value for this team no matter if some will ever admit it or not.

BigRob
12-28-2012, 05:56 PM
yeah, maybe.

but colon is much expensive as was kemo the year before, but we never heard the outcry like we do with ovi about foster.

foster has been good value for this team no matter if some will ever admit it or not.

Hell yeah he's been good value. He was an UDFA. To get any starts out of him is a good value. Doesn't mean we should sign him back to the team.

Colon is a little better than Foster and we can't really save much money cutting Colon.

Eddie Spaghetti
12-28-2012, 05:57 PM
that's probably going to be the difference, I agree.

ovi will need a new whipping boy next season.

hawaiiansteel
12-28-2012, 06:09 PM
I'm personally hoping for a starting OL next season of:

Starks-Colon-Pouncey-DeCastro-Gilbert/Adams/Beachum

BigRob
12-28-2012, 06:15 PM
I'm personally hoping for a starting OL next season of:

Starks-Colon-Pouncey-DeCastro-Gilbert/Adams/Beachum

What to do when Colon goes down with another season ending injury? Who replaces him? A draft pick?

hawaiiansteel
12-28-2012, 06:27 PM
What to do when Colon goes down with another season ending injury? Who replaces him? A draft pick?

maybe Legursky moves to center and Pouncey slides to LG again.

perhaps the loser of the RT battle, someone like Beachum who has actually showed a lot of potential.

or we sign a low-level FA or a draft pick.

steelz09
12-28-2012, 09:39 PM
I'm personally hoping for a starting OL next season of:

Starks-Colon-Pouncey-DeCastro-Gilbert/Adams/Beachum

:Agree but I wish we could cut ties with Colon to save $$. If that was the case, I'd have no problem signing Foster for less and have DeCastro & Foster as our starting guards.