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BigRob
11-19-2012, 02:42 PM
Why is he not starting?

Collapsed the pocket all night and played the run well. Thought he had a great game.

He has to start over Ziggy at this point going forward!

focosteeler
11-19-2012, 03:01 PM
Why is he not starting?

Collapsed the pocket all night and played the run well. Thought he had a great game.

He has to start over Ziggy at this point going forward!

hopefully coaching staff saw the same thing and will start him the rest of the season

pittpete
11-19-2012, 03:07 PM
Forgot to mention this today.
Cam looked pretty good.
Ziggy backup Hood from now on

flippy
11-19-2012, 03:17 PM
We didn't give up a 3rd down conversion with Hood in the game.

I watched Heyward a few times. He was hesitant sometimes. Other times he made plays. I think he's at a point where he needs playing time to get better.

Shawn
11-19-2012, 03:33 PM
No doubt in my mind Cam has all the tools to be great in this league. Ziggy's days as a starter are numbered.

Oviedo
11-19-2012, 04:12 PM
Before we make Cam the new "flavor of the week" and kick Hood to the curb let's see what he does for more than one game. Much like Max Starks on the OL, Hood is no where as bad as some like to try to portray. Many would have thrown Max out years ago and he is a rock for us the past two years.

BigRob
11-19-2012, 04:22 PM
Before we make Cam the new "flavor of the week" and kick Hood to the curb let's see what he does for more than one game. Much like Max Starks on the OL, Hood is no where as bad as some like to try to portray. Many would have thrown Max out years ago and he is a rock for us the past two years.

Big difference here. Hood is rated as the worst 3-4 end in the league right now by Pro Football Focus. That's out of 15 or so teams playing 3-4 defense.

Was Max ever rated as the worst Tackle in the league?

hawaiiansteel
11-19-2012, 04:24 PM
Before we make Cam the new "flavor of the week" and kick Hood to the curb let's see what he does for more than one game. Much like Max Starks on the OL, Hood is no where as bad as some like to try to portray. Many would have thrown Max out years ago and he is a rock for us the past two years.

I agree.

Ziggy and Cam are our future bookend DEs once Keisel retires, Ziggy may not remind anyone of Aaron Smith but he played very well last night.

SidSmythe
11-19-2012, 06:05 PM
To this point I had not been impressed by Heyward at all.
Last Night I saw him make a few mistakes but I also saw him make some plays.

Eddie Spaghetti
11-19-2012, 06:15 PM
put me in the more playing time for heyward camp.

I don't know what you guys are seeing from hood, but when I rewatch the games, I see him routinely getting pushed 5-7 yards off the LOS.

hawaiiansteel
11-19-2012, 06:22 PM
put me in the more playing time for heyward camp.

I don't know what you guys are seeing from hood, but when I rewatch the games, I see him routinely getting pushed 5-7 yards off the LOS.

I'm all for getting Heyward more playing time, he's most likely Keisel's heir apparent.

as for Ziggy, he must not have been routinely getting pushed 5-7 yards off the LOS last night since Ray Rice only averaged 2.0 yds/carry rushing for 40 yards on 20 carries.

Eddie Spaghetti
11-19-2012, 06:25 PM
did I say last night? Haven't had time to go back and watch it again yet. Sorry.

I suggest you go back and watch the chiefs game. No point in arguing if you think he has played well this season. Keep up the fight.

hawaiiansteel
11-19-2012, 06:26 PM
did I say last night? Haven't had time to go back and watch it again yet. Sorry.

I suggest you go back and watch the chiefs game. No point in arguing if you think he has played well this season. Keep up the fight.


did I say this season?

I said last night...

Eddie Spaghetti
11-19-2012, 06:29 PM
ziggys great.

got it.

hawaiiansteel
11-19-2012, 06:37 PM
ziggys great.

got it.

not what I said...

NJ-STEELER
11-19-2012, 06:38 PM
THEY PROBABLY TOLD HIM TO JUST REACT TO THE PLAY AND ATTACK.

ONCE HE GETS FULL REPS IN PRACTICE, I'M SURE THEY'LL TEACH HIM TO TAKE UP SPACE AND OCCUPY 2 BLOCKERS IN ORDER TO MAKE ROOM FOR THE LBs

BigRob
11-19-2012, 06:56 PM
did I say this season?

I said last night...

He played better for the 1 1/2 quarters he played last night.

BigRob
11-21-2012, 02:43 AM
PFF sums it up pretty darn well.


Make the Switch
With Ziggy Hood a continual disappointment as a starter for the Steelers along their defensive line, he left this game injured after just a dozen snaps, opening the door for Cameron Heyward to show what he could do. Hood had actually made a couple of plays in the run game before he went out, but they both came from being blocked to the ground around the point of attack and simply clogging up the intended running lane. It was certainly an interesting tactic, and given his play in the past, might be his best bet to make an impact.

Heyward showed after he came in that it simply is not the scheme that is holding Hood back, because in the same position and role he made far more of a presence of himself.

Heyward made five tackles, which is more than half of the total that Hood has for the entire season and the story is the same when it comes to pass-rushing, with a hit and two hurries exactly half of the total pressure Hood has at this point in the year. Pittsburgh has just been given the tape that justifies a switch at the position. Let’s see if they notice.


Make the Switch!

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/20/refo-ravens-steelers-week-11/

hawaiiansteel
11-21-2012, 02:55 AM
Make the Switch!



Ziggy has a bad back, I would much rather have Heyward in there against the Browns than a less than 100% Ziggy. we drafted Heyward in the first round for a reason and I thought he played relatively well against the Ravens, why not get him some much-needed experience?

plus Heyward played his college ball at Ohio State, I'm sure he would love to play well against the Browns.

BradshawsHairdresser
11-21-2012, 09:27 AM
put me in the more playing time for heyward camp.

I don't know what you guys are seeing from hood, but when I rewatch the games, I see him routinely getting pushed 5-7 yards off the LOS.

$$$$
Ziggy wouldn't be a starting DE on any other 3-4 team in the league.

Shawn
11-21-2012, 09:36 AM
I think the Steelers just don't want to cut their losses and admit they were actually wrong on a first round pick.

BradshawsHairdresser
11-21-2012, 02:03 PM
I think the Steelers just don't want to cut their losses and admit they were actually wrong on a first round pick.That's sad.

hawaiiansteel
11-21-2012, 02:16 PM
Ziggy wouldn't be a starting DE on any other 3-4 team in the league.

if Heyward plays well enough to keep the starting job Ziggy may not be one any longer.

BigRob
11-21-2012, 02:18 PM
if Heyward plays well enough to keep the starting job Ziggy may not be one any longer.

I have often wondered if he wouldn't play better by subbing in on passing downs and just letting him get after the passer instead of two gapping and wearing down all game.

Similar to how the Ravens use Mcphee.

hawaiiansteel
11-21-2012, 02:24 PM
I have often wondered if he wouldn't play better by subbing in on passing downs and just letting him get after the passer instead of two gapping and wearing down all game.

Similar to how the Ravens use Mcphee.

Ziggy would do much better on a 4-3 team where he only had one gap responsibilities.

unfortunately to Ovi's chagrin, that's not how LeBeau's defense is designed. DEs in our system are rarely given the freedom to just go after the passer...

RuthlessBurgher
11-21-2012, 03:09 PM
$$$$
Ziggy wouldn't be a starting DE on any other 3-4 team in the league.

A dozen teams play the 3-4. Here are the starting DE's for the other 11:

Arizona: Calais Campbell & Darnell Dockett
Baltimore: Pernell McPhee & Haloti Ngata
Dallas: Marcus Spears & Jason Hatcher
Green Bay: Ryan Pickett & C.J. Wilson
Houston: J.J. Watt & Antonio Smith
Kansas City: Tyson Jackson & Ropati Pitoitua
Indianapolis: Cory Redding & Fili Moala
New York: Muhammad Wilkerson & Mike DeVito
San Diego: Corey Liuget & Vaughn Martin
San Francisco: Ray McDonald & Justin Smith
Washington: Jarvis Jenkins & Stephen Bowen

While there are some excellent players on that list like J.J. Watt, Haloti Ngata, Justin Smith, Calais Campbell, etc. there are also a lot of total "blah" players as well.

BigRob
11-21-2012, 03:16 PM
A dozen teams play the 3-4. Here are the starting DE's for the other 11:

Arizona: Calais Campbell & Darnell Dockett
Baltimore: Pernell McPhee & Haloti Ngata
Dallas: Marcus Spears & Jason Hatcher
Green Bay: Ryan Pickett & C.J. Wilson
Houston: J.J. Watt & Antonio Smith
Kansas City: Tyson Jackson & Ropati Pitoitua
Indianapolis: Cory Redding & Fili Moala
New York: Muhammad Wilkerson & Mike DeVito
San Diego: Corey Liuget & Vaughn Martin
San Francisco: Ray McDonald & Justin Smith
Washington: Jarvis Jenkins & Stephen Bowen

While there are some excellent players on that list like J.J. Watt, Haloti Ngata, Justin Smith, Calais Campbell, etc. there are also a lot of total "blah" players as well.

Yet Hood is consistently rated the worst 3-4 end in the league by PFF. That's based on his gap protection and pushing the pocket on passing downs.

Oviedo
11-21-2012, 03:25 PM
I think the Steelers just don't want to cut their losses and admit they were actually wrong on a first round pick.

Didn't stop them cutting Jamain Strephens or Troy Edwards or Huey Richardson. Hood just isn't as bad as everyone wants to protray him as.

Oviedo
11-21-2012, 03:33 PM
A dozen teams play the 3-4. Here are the starting DE's for the other 11:

Arizona: Calais Campbell & Darnell Dockett
Baltimore: Pernell McPhee & Haloti Ngata
Dallas: Marcus Spears & Jason Hatcher
Green Bay: Ryan Pickett & C.J. Wilson
Houston: J.J. Watt & Antonio Smith
Kansas City: Tyson Jackson & Ropati Pitoitua
Indianapolis: Cory Redding & Fili Moala
New York: Muhammad Wilkerson & Mike DeVito
San Diego: Corey Liuget & Vaughn Martin
San Francisco: Ray McDonald & Justin Smith
Washington: Jarvis Jenkins & Stephen Bowen

While there are some excellent players on that list like J.J. Watt, Haloti Ngata, Justin Smith, Calais Campbell, etc. there are also a lot of total "blah" players as well.

Maybe it is because the best on this list are not asked to do what we ask our DEs to do. Watt and Smith are clearly turned loose to go after the passer and not maintain gap integrity. Could probably say the same for Ngata and Campbell too.

BigRob
11-21-2012, 03:49 PM
Maybe it is because the best on this list are not asked to do what we ask our DEs to do. Watt and Smith are clearly turned loose to go after the passer and not maintain gap integrity. Could probably say the same for Ngata and Campbell too.

You really think this is Hood's issue? I just don't think he's that good. period.

Snatch98
11-21-2012, 05:26 PM
You really think this is Hood's issue? I just don't think he's that good. period.

I certainly don't think it's a lack of strength. I'm sure we all remember watching the videos leading up to the season. I'm not sure what's going on with hood but I also don't believe Lebeau would sacrifice the rest of the defense if he thought hood couldn't do the job. We have a similar thing going on with Casey and McClendon.

Steelerphile
11-21-2012, 05:27 PM
You really think this is Hood's issue? I just don't think he's that good. period.

Not that good maybe but not as bad as portrayed. Definitely not a player to cut. He does some good things. Did Heyward really do that well or is this another example of board bias, where the player the board seems be down on (Hood) gets panned for similar performances by the favored backup. Heyward played reasonably well. I didn't see him collapsing the pocket all day, like I hear. Still credited with 2 tackles which is very Hood like stat. No sacks. Hood like. I still don't see Heyward as having clearly separated himself.

BigRob
11-21-2012, 05:49 PM
Not that good maybe but not as bad as portrayed. Definitely not a player to cut. He does some good things. Did Heyward really do that well or is this another example of board bias, where the player the board seems be down on (Hood) gets panned for similar performances by the favored backup. Heyward played reasonably well. I didn't see him collapsing the pocket all day, like I hear. Still credited with 2 tackles which is very Hood like stat. No sacks. Hood like. I still don't see Heyward as having clearly separated himself.

Really, according to PFF, Heyward starting one game has already came up with a whole lot more production than Hood has almost all season. Read this and tell me Heyward shouldn't get a shot to repeat his efforts?


Make the Switch
With Ziggy Hood a continual disappointment as a starter for the Steelers along their defensive line, he left this game injured after just a dozen snaps, opening the door for Cameron Heyward to show what he could do. Hood had actually made a couple of plays in the run game before he went out, but they both came from being blocked to the ground around the point of attack and simply clogging up the intended running lane. It was certainly an interesting tactic, and given his play in the past, might be his best bet to make an impact.

Heyward showed after he came in that it simply is not the scheme that is holding Hood back, because in the same position and role he made far more of a presence of himself.

Heyward made five tackles, which is more than half of the total that Hood has for the entire season and the story is the same when it comes to pass-rushing, with a hit and two hurries exactly half of the total pressure Hood has at this point in the year. Pittsburgh has just been given the tape that justifies a switch at the position. Letís see if they notice. Make the Switch!

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...elers-week-11/ (https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/20/refo-ravens-steelers-week-11/)

I think what you may have here is one player is a gamer at practice/working out (Hood) and one player is a gamer during actual games (Heyward).

Steelers should give Heyward a chance to produce.

hawaiiansteel
11-21-2012, 05:57 PM
Steelers should give Heyward a chance to produce.

Heyward is getting his chance to produce right now.

BigRob
11-21-2012, 06:01 PM
Heyward is getting his chance to produce right now.

Assuming Hood can't play right. Hood shouldn't get his spot right back just because he gets healthy.

Steelerphile
11-21-2012, 06:08 PM
Really, according to PFF, Heyward starting one game has already came up with a whole lot more production than Hood has almost all season. Read this and tell me Heyward shouldn't get a shot to repeat his efforts?



I think what you may have here is one player is a gamer at practice/working out (Hood) and one player is a gamer during actual games (Heyward).

Steelers should give Heyward a chance to produce.
The game stats of NFL.com listed Heyward with two tackles for that game. Pretty big difference.

On ESPN. to date they have Hood:
10 solo tackles, 7 asst, 17 total, 1 sack zero yards, 1 tackle for loss and 2 passes defensed.

Heyward they list:
8 solo tackles, 3 asst, 11 total, 1 sack 3 yards, 0 tackles for loss and 0 passes defensed.

These other sites don't give Heyward that much production. That is not the only game Heyward has played in. He plays every game.
I don't think they can afford to sit Hood down and just play Heyward because they have three DEs, Hood, Heyward and Keisel who all need to play and rotate.

BigRob
11-21-2012, 06:31 PM
The game stats of NFL.com listed Heyward with two tackles for that game. Pretty big difference.

On ESPN. to date they have Hood:
10 solo tackles, 7 asst, 17 total, 1 sack zero yards, 1 tackle for loss and 2 passes defensed.

Heyward they list:
8 solo tackles, 3 asst, 11 total, 1 sack 3 yards, 0 tackles for loss and 0 passes defensed.

These other sites don't give Heyward that much production.

Hood has started every game. Compare the stats you listed from ESPN. Heyward with limited playing time has equaled or exceeded Hood's production. Collinsworth noted on the broadcast how little the Steelers rotate d-lineman.

According to Footballoutsiders (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts) Hood has 523 snaps played to Heywards 259 (This includes the Baltimore game where he played almost all the snaps).

How is that not setting himself apart?

By the way, PFF is very respected, I tend to trust their film breakdown for the most part.

flippy
11-21-2012, 06:45 PM
The game where Hood stood out the most to me was KC when they were running right at him. Their RB and line were going sideways to stretch out the Steelers and then their RB was cutting back as soon as their was a lane.

As a result, Hood was in a position of going backward and sideways with the play trying to ride it out and let the LBs make a play. And the LBs weren't doing their part either. The difference between last week and this week was the LBs. Harrison was going hard on the backside pursuit. And Woodley was holding the edge forcing the cut back faster and when you add that with the more aggressive pursuit from Silverback, Rice didn't have any lane/room to cut back.

The whole front 7 played about their best game of the season against Baltimore. And I think Hood was holding his end of the bargain. Again, no 3rd down conversions happened while Hood was on the field.

I think Heyward looks a lot more promising. And I think the 2 will be fine together in time. However we slice it, I'd love to see more rotation. Keisel was a good pass rusher when he came in on 3rd downs for Kimo back in the day. I wouldn't mind seeing that again and maybe letting Heyward take Keisel's spot sooner than later.

SidSmythe
11-21-2012, 06:57 PM
HOOD has seen the field 3 times as much as HEYWARD w/ another year of experience in front of him.

Maybe starting HEYWARD over HOOD might send HOOD a message that his play is NOT ok??

BigRob
11-21-2012, 07:58 PM
I think Hood was holding his end of the bargain. Again, no 3rd down conversions happened while Hood was on the field.


Hood only played about 12 snaps this game, how was he having an impact? Heyward played over 50 snaps. I would give him the lion's share of the credit you are giving to Hood.

hawaiiansteel
11-21-2012, 08:21 PM
Hood only played about 12 snaps this game, how was he having an impact? Heyward played over 50 snaps. I would give him the lion's share of the credit you are giving to Hood.

all of the DL played well while they were in there, as Ray Rice only gained 40 yards in 20 carries.

not that it matters, but Heyward played 43 snaps and IMO I thought he more than held his own and certainly deserves more playing time in the future.

BigRob
11-21-2012, 09:00 PM
all of the DL played well while they were in there, as Ray Rice only gained 40 yards in 20 carries.

not that it matters, but Heyward played 43 snaps and IMO I thought he more than held his own and certainly deserves more playing time in the future.

Some think I hate Ziggy, that's not the case. I just think he could be better as a situational guy similar to Pernell Mcphee at Baltimore. That guys does well in a situational role and struggles when asked to be an every down player.

Hood may benefit from being a pure pass rushing DL and staying fresh.

BigRob
11-21-2012, 09:02 PM
not that it matters, but Heyward played 43 snaps and IMO I thought he more than held his own and certainly deserves more playing time in the future.

(Ah hell, nevermind, he had 43 defensive snaps to Hoods 12)


(http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts)

Chadman
11-21-2012, 10:54 PM
Now, right off the bat, Chadman is going to point out that he has no stats to back any of what is about to be said up, however...

the success of the Steelers 3-4 Defense is, primarily, dependant on the play of the DL. These guys set the tone, fill gaps & create space for the LB's to make plays. That in itself says that the stat lines for the DL for the Steelers are never going to give a great gauge as to how they are really playing.

Team Stats however might show how effective the Steelers 3-4 DL is. After all, as a unit, we can see their success representeted by the success of those around them. Where is the Steelers D rated right now?

Another thing to consider is this- if the DL is the tone-setter of the 3-4, the NT is the central cog to the DL success. Without good play from the NT, without dominant play from the NT, the DL is never going to be as effective as they could/should be. Don't think there is much doubt right now that Hampton isn't the same player he was 5 years ago. Neither Hood nor Keisel are dominant, in Chadman's opinion, this season. Is that reflected in Hampton's regression?

Comparing Heyward's value to Hood's is irrelevant. The Steelers need all the DE's to be effective, in whatever way they are asked to play. Hood is a little tank, while Heyward is an athletic beast. They are going to play differently. They will not garner the same results, individually. How different are the team stats with Hood in as compared to when Heyward is in? That is more the key indicator.

With Ta'amu's release, and with McLendon not having pushed Hampton for starting time this season, the NT position, going forward, is still a big question mark. If Hampton continues regressing, or is released, the Steelers DL will NOT improve next season, unless there is a genuine investment into the position- either FA or the draft. Until we get dominant play from the NT again, the DE's will not look as good as they could, and the domino's will start to fall across the D.

Mister Pittsburgh
11-22-2012, 12:22 AM
Overall, at this point, I question the Colbert-Tomlin tandem in talent evaluation. They have hit on some DB's & Wr's in the draft. At every other position they have been subpar in acquiring/ evaluating talent. Look at all the 3rd contracts we have had to sign vets to which is totally not the Steelers norm.

I think this offseason will be big for the Steelers looking toward the future including who we choose to keep out of our own free agents. I think Wallace & Mendenhall should go on offense. On defense I free up cash by getting rid of, or asking for renegotiated contracts from Casey, Harrison, and Troy. We could easily free up 20-25 million and address some needs via free agency. We need to hit on one or two Hartings, Kemo, Farrior type free agents or we are going to piss away our final years with Ben.

I love the old man and what he has brought to Steelers nation, but I wouldn't mind a fresh eye on our defense. With so many teams running the 3-4 there has to be some real good young coach ready for a promotion. Hard to say that with the defense once again top 2 but it's just a feeling a change at coordinator is needed as our veterans move on as well.

hawaiiansteel
11-22-2012, 03:16 AM
By the way, PFF is very respected, I tend to trust their film breakdown for the most part.

PFF is very well respected and deservedly so and I tend to trust their film breakdown also.

what I question however is whether Pro Football Focus truly understands the role of a DE in a two-gap 3-4 alignment.

fezziwig
11-22-2012, 09:05 AM
Heyward in my opinion does a better job than Hood. Heyward should get the move ahead of Hood and this will give Hood more time to learn, lift weights, make videos or whatever he does because, it sure ain't stopping the run.

Oviedo
11-22-2012, 09:14 AM
Overall, at this point, I question the Colbert-Tomlin tandem in talent evaluation. They have hit on some DB's & Wr's in the draft. At every other position they have been subpar in acquiring/ evaluating talent. Look at all the 3rd contracts we have had to sign vets to which is totally not the Steelers norm.

I think this offseason will be big for the Steelers looking toward the future including who we choose to keep out of our own free agents. I think Wallace & Mendenhall should go on offense. On defense I free up cash by getting rid of, or asking for renegotiated contracts from Casey, Harrison, and Troy. We could easily free up 20-25 million and address some needs via free agency. We need to hit on one or two Hartings, Kemo, Farrior type free agents or we are going to piss away our final years with Ben.

I love the old man and what he has brought to Steelers nation, but I wouldn't mind a fresh eye on our defense. With so many teams running the 3-4 there has to be some real good young coach ready for a promotion. Hard to say that with the defense once again top 2 but it's just a feeling a change at coordinator is needed as our veterans move on as well.

You do realize don't you that we have to free up at least $20-25M JUST TO BE UNDER THE CAP this off season don't you? That doesn't even factor in keeping our own players which will mean more cuts or contract renegotiation.

There will not be any front line or even mid-range free agent signings unless they try to keep our own players like Wallace. There is no new money until the new TV deal kicks in for the 2014 season.

Mister Pittsburgh
11-22-2012, 11:04 AM
You do realize don't you that we have to free up at least $20-25M JUST TO BE UNDER THE CAP this off season don't you? That doesn't even factor in keeping our own players which will mean more cuts or contract renegotiation.

There will not be any front line or even mid-range free agent signings unless they try to keep our own players like Wallace. There is no new money until the new TV deal kicks in for the 2014 season.

Thought that kicked in this season.....POOP!

fezziwig
11-22-2012, 12:31 PM
How much money if any do we save if we let go of Troy ? He's always going to be injured, sitting the bench or at half speed to say the best.

Shoe
11-22-2012, 01:40 PM
I unfortunately didn't get a chance to watch the game (was at a party with no TV), but if Cam "made plays", I caution those who look at that as a sign of 3-4 success. You saw those same "plays" being made by Hood at the end of his rookie year. People cited that as an affirmation of his talent. But the reality is that plays a lot of plays that are made aren't really made. A lot of times guys just free up, and are just the beneficiary.

e.g. Aldon Smith from the 49ers, MAKES PLAYS. If Cam was throwing fools around like that, then I would agree. But if Cam just happened to make a sack or tackle cuz he was in the right place... that's NOT necessarily "a play". Hood "made plays" back then, but I NEVER thought they were plays.

Especially 3-4 DL. They don't really make plays. That's why Aaron Smith was so underrated. He never flashed. He just did his job. How we knew that he was so good, was by the strength of the overall defense--namely vs. the run. And we saw how good he was when he went down with injury (coincidentally Polamalu was out at the same time, but the "analysts" always used our struggles as an affirmation of Polamalu, but never Smith).

Captain Lemming
11-22-2012, 04:10 PM
Now, right off the bat, Chadman is going to point out that he has no stats to back any of what is about to be said

I will provide stats that are contrary to nearly everything you just said


the success of the Steelers 3-4 Defense is, primarily, dependant on the play of the DL. These guys set the tone, fill gaps & create space for the LB's to make plays. That in itself says that the stat lines for the DL for the Steelers are never going to give a great gauge as to how they are really playing.

Not really. this is a fallacy that so called "knowledgeable" Steeler fans throw around. LBer play determines the quality of our D. Aaron Smith was our best DE because he was PRODUCTIVE not because he made LBers look good. Proof? In his prime Smith had several seasons with 60 plus total tackles (70 career high). None of his peers have done 60 tackles once. Keisel went to the probowl having 33 total tackles. Combine Keisels two highest sack totals and you get a number ( 8 ) that Smith did TWICE in single seasons.

Interestingly our "best" DE did not line up next to our most productive LBers (which "should" be the case if the linemen make the LBers). Porter and then Harrison lined up on the OPPOSITE side than Smith in the base. If we credit the line for LBers success, Kimo (next to Porter) was a heck of a better player than Smith (who can take pride in the greatness of Clark Haggins).


Team Stats however might show how effective the Steelers 3-4 DL is. After all, as a unit, we can see their success representeted by the success of those around them.

Our best run defense in two decades was during a season when our best DE of the era missed most of the season. We lose our best DE of the era and Casey is clearly past his prime what happened? When our LBers talented are healthy and playing well, our defense is fine regardless of the dlinemen in front.


Another thing to consider is this- if the DL is the tone-setter of the 3-4, the NT is the central cog to the DL success. Without good play from the NT, without dominant play from the NT, the DL is never going to be as effective as they could/should be. Don't think there is much doubt right now that Hampton isn't the same player he was 5 years ago. Neither Hood nor Keisel are dominant, in Chadman's opinion, this season. Is that reflected in Hampton's regression?

Our run defense was fine when Hoke played in place of Casey. Our win percent is BETTER when he started than with Casey. When Mclendon played for an injured Casey last season we were fine, he is UNDEFEATED (3-0) as a starter.


Comparing Heyward's value to Hood's is irrelevant. The Steelers need all the DE's to be effective, in whatever way they are asked to play. Hood is a little tank, while Heyward is an athletic beast. They are going to play differently. They will not garner the same results, individually. How different are the team stats with Hood in as compared to when Heyward is in? That is more the key indicator.

Again "team stats" are misleading, and to credit the line with team stats is wrong. If so the best Dline we have ever had was Keisel, aging Casey and Hood, the starting 3 for the majority of the 2010 season when our run defense was at its best. We know that aint true.

Fact is that we had Farrior and Harrison healthy, Timmons had his ONE breakout season, and Woodley had a typical year. The state of the LBers was GREAT, despite issues on the dline. for most of that season Troy was healthy too contibuting to the run defense as well.

The fact that our Dline does not need great play is shown in that WE NEVER DRAFTED DEs HIGH UNDER BC. Now that we do it does not make our defense any better. Even Casey who was drafted high gets replaced by no-names with little effect.

Interestingly this years defensing success is largely related to our improved secondary. Neither the line nor the banged up LBs are getting great pressure (sufficient perhaps not great), and we have the number one pass defense.

fezziwig
11-22-2012, 04:40 PM
I thought we had the number one secondary/pass defense last year too ?

Anyway, pretty smart talk Captain and it adds up pretty well. I give credit with our past success to James Harrison, Farrior and then add in some Aaron Smith that could do it better than anyone plus a not too shabby Kiesel ( well, except for the beard ). It all came together at its best when Harrison had his highlight seasons. Aaron Smith, Kiesel added a lot to that with being good at their position and Casey too when he was a bit better.
Harrison made Woodley and the entire team better if you ask me. When was Timmons breakout season anyway ? I must have missed those three games.

Our d-backs are doing well right now but eventually, that will not be enough if we make it to the playoffs. We need Harrison, Woodley to step it up and we need guys like Hampton, Kiesel, Hood, Heyward to allow Harrison and Woodley to do their job..... And all that means, it starts all over again with, who's not getting their job done.

Oviedo
11-23-2012, 12:47 PM
I thought we had the number one secondary/pass defense last year too ?

Anyway, pretty smart talk Captain and it adds up pretty well. I give credit with our past success to James Harrison, Farrior and then add in some Aaron Smith that could do it better than anyone plus a not too shabby Kiesel ( well, except for the beard ). It all came together at its best when Harrison had his highlight seasons. Aaron Smith, Kiesel added a lot to that with being good at their position and Casey too when he was a bit better.
Harrison made Woodley and the entire team better if you ask me. When was Timmons breakout season anyway ? I must have missed those three games.

Our d-backs are doing well right now but eventually, that will not be enough if we make it to the playoffs. We need Harrison, Woodley to step it up and we need guys like Hampton, Kiesel, Hood, Heyward to allow Harrison and Woodley to do their job..... And all that means, it starts all over again with, who's not getting their job done.


You should watch more games because Timmons is the only LB doing anything this year. He has been asked to do it all because Harrison and Woodley and their combined $16M+ salary have either been mediocre of on the sideline watching.

Eddie Spaghetti
11-23-2012, 04:45 PM
larry foote plays linebacker and leads the team in tackles, so he must be doing something. I see that when I watch the games, the same as I see timmons playing well this season.

I'm sure I will be accused of "stalking" for pointing out this inaccuracy, but the facts are the facts.

ikestops85
11-23-2012, 10:28 PM
larry foote plays linebacker and leads the team in tackles, so he must be doing something. I see that when I watch the games, the same as I see timmons playing well this season.

I'm sure I will be accused of "stalking" for pointing out this inaccuracy, but the facts are the facts.

You are correct Eddie. Foote has been a solid player this year for us. He gets crap because he isn't a star but he also doesn't get paid like a star.

Captain Lemming
11-24-2012, 02:10 AM
You should watch more games because Timmons is the only LB doing anything this year. He has been asked to do it all because Harrison and Woodley and their combined $16M+ salary have either been mediocre of on the sideline watching.

Last four games JH has more tackles than Timmons DESPITE injury AND playing outside LBer, rather than ILBer which SHOULD ALWAYS have more tackles.
JH has not been getting many sacks but dont think for one moment he is a non-factor on the run game.
Can you say Darrin McFadden? Thats what happens when Harrison sits out.

What was our defense during the time he was out? This team was in the bottom half of the league, horrible.

JH aint close to being his usual self. But dont think for one moment that he has no part is this defensive resurgence.

steelblood
11-24-2012, 09:36 AM
Hood has had some very good games and even seasons in Pittsburgh. However, this season he has played poorly. This is very clear to anyone who watches line play. Should we cut Hood? No. Should we offer him a new contract in the offseason? No.

BradshawsHairdresser
11-25-2012, 01:31 AM
Last four games JH has more tackles than Timmons DESPITE injury AND playing outside LBer, rather than ILBer which SHOULD ALWAYS have more tackles.
JH has not been getting many sacks but dont think for one moment he is a non-factor on the run game.
Can you say Darrin McFadden? Thats what happens when Harrison sits out.

What was our defense during the time he was out? This team was in the bottom half of the league, horrible.

JH aint close to being his usual self. But dont think for one moment that he has no part is this defensive resurgence.


$$$$$$$$$$

fezziwig
11-26-2012, 02:30 PM
Yep, Timmons has shown up on ocassion this year and he had a nice pic six yesterday. He's still not worth the number one pick or his salary.

Slapstick
11-26-2012, 02:36 PM
Yep, Timmons has shown up on ocassion this year and he had a nice pic six yesterday. He's still not worth the number one pick or his salary.

I disagree.

BigRob
11-26-2012, 03:28 PM
How about getting the thread back on topic. Cam Heyward. What did you think of his play?

flippy
11-26-2012, 03:32 PM
Heyward and Worilds looked good together. Seems like they were rotating Cam and Ziggy more than usual yesterday.

BradshawsHairdresser
11-26-2012, 03:34 PM
So far this season:
Heyward > Hood
McLendon > Hampton
Worilds > Woodley

BigRob
11-27-2012, 02:02 PM
Only one Pittsburgh defender played more than 10 snaps and did not record a single tackle. That man was Ziggy Hood. He played 53 snaps.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/27/refo-steelers-browns-week-12/


How does Heyward only get 16 snaps against Cleveland after the way he played against Baltimore? Makes no sense not to try him out more.

BradshawsHairdresser
11-28-2012, 01:03 PM
How does Heyward only get 16 snaps against Cleveland after the way he played against Baltimore? Makes no sense not to try him out more.
It's the LeBeau hierarchy. In that scheme of things, it seems, experience is usually going to trump ability.