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View Full Version : Hampton, Keisel, Hood: Hands down the worst 3-4 line in the league per PFF



BigRob
11-02-2012, 03:24 PM
Per Pro Football Focus (A very respected group):


Through the first eight weeks, Casey Hampton, Brett Keisel, and Ziggy Hood have been the hands-down worst 3-4 defensive line in the league. In 359 combined run snaps, they have just 12 defensive stops. In 499 combined pass rushes, they’ve pressured the quarterback just 13 times.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/11/02/3tfo-steelers-giants-week-9/

lloydroid
11-02-2012, 04:02 PM
I don't think PFF understands the Steelers' system. Do they even know the primary role of the DL in our system? I doubt it. Our line is soooooooooooooooo bad, that they anchor the #2 over all D in the entire NFL. OK, sounds horrible.

BigRob
11-02-2012, 04:20 PM
I don't think PFF understands the Steelers' system. Do they even know the primary role of the DL in our system? I doubt it. Our line is soooooooooooooooo bad, that they anchor the #2 over all D in the entire NFL. OK, sounds horrible.

Pleeeeeaaaase. You telling me that the Steelers play such a unique brand of 3-4 for that their D-line can't be compared to any other 3-4 D line in the league?

Notice they didn't say the worst "D-line" in the league. They said the worst 3-4 D line in the league.

lloydroid
11-02-2012, 04:23 PM
Pleeeeeaaaase. You telling me that the Steelers play such a unique brand of 3-4 for that their D-line can't be compared to any other 3-4 D line in the league?

Notice they didn't say the worst "D-line" in the league. They said the worst 3-4 D line in the league.

Oh, OK, so how do these teams with "superior D lines" rank in total defense? Hmmmmmm. I am sure ALL those D lines are soooooooooooooooooooooo much better than the Steelers that they give up more yards than do the Steelers.

BigRob
11-02-2012, 05:52 PM
Oh, OK, so how do these teams with "superior D lines" rank in total defense? Hmmmmmm. I am sure ALL those D lines are soooooooooooooooooooooo much better than the Steelers that they give up more yards than do the Steelers.



WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT? You're confusing the issue. A team can have great 3-4 d line and suck at LB'ers and Secondary and have a crappy team defense. The point is that the Steelers LB'ers and Secondary are carrying the Steelers right now. Show's you how well our other players are doing compared to our crappy d-line. Get it together maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

eniparadoxgma
11-02-2012, 06:21 PM
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan I join in this thread and talk liiiiiiiiiiike thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis toooooooooooooo?

BigRob
11-02-2012, 06:44 PM
Caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan I join in this thread and talk liiiiiiiiiiike thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis toooooooooooooo?

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure!

lloydroid
11-02-2012, 06:57 PM
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT? You're confusing the issue. A team can have great 3-4 d line and suck at LB'ers and Secondary and have a crappy team defense. The point is that the Steelers LB'ers and Secondary are carrying the Steelers right now. Show's you how well our other players are doing compared to our crappy d-line. Get it together maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

If the DL was as bad as they claim, the over all D wouldn't not be 2nd in the entire NFL, no way. In Pgh's 3-4, the main goal for the DL is to clog up the O line from getting blocks on the LBs. That is priority 1 and they must not doing THAT bad at the job, or their #s would be far worse. What, are you claiming that our DBs are so super superior that our DL can suck and they make up for it? OUR backfield? Right now, AZ, Balt., GB, Dallas, Houston, Colts, KC, NE, NYJ, SD, SF, Skins are all in 3-4 Ds. As of now, NO TEAM has a better passing D, ONE team is ranked ahead of Pgh on over all D (SF), and only four of those teams have a better rushing D. We know our DL men don't make splash plays. They never have. Even in our days of our very best 3-4 DL we had little in terms of plays they are referring to. Their job is to CLOG. And if they don't do that job, our D would quickly turn into a real crap turd. But as of now, we are #2 over all in the entire NFL.

BigRob
11-02-2012, 07:03 PM
If the DL was as bad as they claim, the over all D wouldn't not be 2nd in the entire NFL, no way. In Pgh's 3-4, the main goal for the DL is to clog up the O line from getting blocks on the LBs. That is priority 1 and they must not doing THAT bad at the job, or their #s would be far worse. What, are you claiming that our DBs are so super superior that our DL can suck and they make up for it? OUR backfield? Right now, AZ, Balt., GB, Dallas, Houston, Colts, KC, NE, NYJ, SD, SF, Skins are all in 3-4 Ds. As of now, NO TEAM has a better passing D, ONE team is ranked ahead of Pgh on over all D (SF), and only four of those teams have a better rushing D. We know our DL men don't make splash plays. They never have. Even in our days of our very best 3-4 DL we had little in terms of plays they are referring to. Their job is to CLOG. And if they don't do that job, our D would quickly turn into a real crap turd. But as of now, we are #2 over all in the entire NFL.

You really think that Hampton, Keisel, and Hood make up the best 3-4 D line in the league or even second? Please!

Sugar
11-02-2012, 07:25 PM
I really could care less about rankings for a 3-4 line. Do they keep the other team from scoring? Do they get off the field after 3rd down?

DukieBoy
11-02-2012, 07:47 PM
Maybe some good bulletin board motivation for this Sunday.

On the other hand, the Giants' pass rush is a concern; they are really good. Hope we can run through those guys and make them play the run first.

lloydroid
11-02-2012, 07:49 PM
You really think that Hampton, Keisel, and Hood make up the best 3-4 D line in the league or even second? Please!

Did I say that?

BigRob
11-02-2012, 08:15 PM
Did I say that?

Pretty much, because your equating our defensive ranking to our D-line. Anyone can see with their eyeballs, this team is not the same as years past at the d-line. Just because we are ranked first or second in yards doesn't mean much.

The Steelers are 2nd in the league in TOP, that puts the defense on the field for less time. That means it covers up our weaknesses a lot.

JDSteeler
11-03-2012, 12:47 AM
I have to agree with some of that article...

It's the same old BS...the DL scheme is designed to take-up blockers for the LB's to make the play...

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda...that's horse-$h!t!!!

Hood plays patty, fricken cake on atleast 80% of the plays, and the other 20% is a combination of getting
freeken pancaked by the O-line, or running away from the contact.

For a 1st rounder, he flat-out stinks!!! Why LeBeau doesn't rotate him out of there is beyond me...McLendon
should get a taste at LDE!!! McLendon atleast breaks the line and is disruptive.

Hampton is getting pushed around, and doesn't get any penetration...again I think McLendon should see more time there.

I love the Diesel, but he's gotta do more, and I have seen a little more lately, but he's gotta start pressing the pocket...

Where the F is Heyward!!!!??? He's just not getting the PT....

I just wish ALL these guys had a MEAN streak!!! Get friggin nasty like Colon, and bury some fool on his back!!

Why Doesn't the coaching staff coach-up these guys to get their FREEKING HANDS UP!!!! Knock the ball DOWN!!!

It's time that the D-Line does more than the status quo!!!!

The whole defense would then be freaking dominating, and getting some fumbles and INT's...

JD

BradshawsHairdresser
11-03-2012, 10:05 AM
D-line has made noticeable regression...part of the reason why there's been a steep decline in QB pressures and sacks and forced fumbles, and why the running D has gotten softer. This in spite of spending two of the last four first-round picks on DEs. Team needs to either change defensive alignment or get personnel that can do the job.

lloydroid
11-03-2012, 03:14 PM
Pretty much,

A simple yes or no would suffice. Fact is, I NEVER SAID THAT. Now deal with reality instead of making straw men arguments.


because your equating our defensive ranking to our D-line.

Nope. I said it was relative, but not 100% casual.


Anyone can see with their eyeballs, this team is not the same as years past at the d-line. Just because we are ranked first or second in yards doesn't mean much.

No, it doesn't mean much; it only means we give up the 2nd least yards in the entire NFL. Do you SF has a good D? You do? Well, they happen to give up less yards than any other team, so, some how, their D ranking is relative, but with Pgh, it is not. Do you think Houston has a good D? I do. They just so happen to rank 3rd in D rank, so their D rank is indicative of their strength of D, but again, when it comes to Pgh, their ranking is meaningless, while the other high ranking teams ranks seem accurate. Wow, that's weird. Do you think the Saints have a good D? You don't? They happen to rank last, so their ranking is indicative as well, it's just the Steelers who have a ranking not relative to the truth, I guess.


The Steelers are 2nd in the league in TOP, that puts the defense on the field for less time. That means it covers up our weaknesses a lot.

The TOP stat is meaningless and deceptive. Anyone with eyes can tell that the offense isn't really that good at TOP, just like you say about the defensive ranking. <insert sarcasm and rolling of eyes>

Oviedo
11-03-2012, 03:58 PM
D-line has made noticeable regression...part of the reason why there's been a steep decline in QB pressures and sacks and forced fumbles, and why the running D has gotten softer. This in spite of spending two of the last four first-round picks on DEs. Team needs to either change defensive alignment or get personnel that can do the job.

Getting new personnel means you are 2-3 years away from a solution. Play a defense that plays to the strength of your players.

lloydroid
11-03-2012, 04:03 PM
Getting new personnel means you are 2-3 years away from a solution. Play a defense that plays to the strength of your players.

I agree with playing to the strength of your players, but that being said, JJ Watt would have to disagree with it taking 2-3 years to make a difference with new personnel. He made a difference immediately.

lloydroid
11-03-2012, 04:07 PM
I have to agree with some of that article...

It's the same old BS...the DL scheme is designed to take-up blockers for the LB's to make the play...

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda...that's horse-$h!t!!!

Hood plays patty, fricken cake on atleast 80% of the plays, and the other 20% is a combination of getting
freeken pancaked by the O-line, or running away from the contact.

For a 1st rounder, he flat-out stinks!!! Why LeBeau doesn't rotate him out of there is beyond me...McLendon
should get a taste at LDE!!! McLendon atleast breaks the line and is disruptive.

Hampton is getting pushed around, and doesn't get any penetration...again I think McLendon should see more time there.

I love the Diesel, but he's gotta do more, and I have seen a little more lately, but he's gotta start pressing the pocket...

Where the F is Heyward!!!!??? He's just not getting the PT....

I just wish ALL these guys had a MEAN streak!!! Get friggin nasty like Colon, and bury some fool on his back!!

Why Doesn't the coaching staff coach-up these guys to get their FREEKING HANDS UP!!!! Knock the ball DOWN!!!

It's time that the D-Line does more than the status quo!!!!

The whole defense would then be freaking dominating, and getting some fumbles and INT's...

JD

First of all, they have the #2 D right now. All they can do is improve by 1 spot. Second of all, the role of the DL has been the same ever since they went to the 3-4 and nothing has changed much since. When did our DL men ever have many sacks or splash plays? What is the most sacks any DL men has ever had since the 3-4? I think Ray Seals might have had 9 one year, maybe.

Is our DL the best ever? No. Is it the best of all 3-4 DL this year? No. Is it such garbage that it makes our D stink? Obviously not. We are the 2nd-best ranked D in the entire league. Fo wheel.

flippy
11-03-2012, 05:17 PM
First of all, they have the #2 D right now. All they can do is improve by 1 spot. Second of all, the role of the DL has been the same ever since they went to the 3-4 and nothing has changed much since. When did our DL men ever have many sacks or splash plays? What is the most sacks any DL men has ever had since the 3-4? I think Ray Seals might have had 9 one year, maybe.

Is our DL the best ever? No. Is it the best of all 3-4 DL this year? No. Is it such garbage that it makes our D stink? Obviously not. We are the 2nd-best ranked D in the entire league. Fo wheel.

There was a time Casey Hampton moved the pocket back 2-3 yards on every play. The opposing QB had no where to step up. We got pressure and hurried the decision making. It lead to sacks, mistakes, forced errors.

Casey no longer has the same impact. You take away Aaron Smith and we're left with what we've got for the last couple of years.

Everything on this defense starts with our DL. If we had young Casey, this D would look night and day better. The NT is the key to the 3-4. And that's our biggest gap right now.

We get moved easily. This wasn't the case a few years ago.

BigRob
11-03-2012, 05:20 PM
No, it doesn't mean much; it only means we give up the 2nd least yards in the entire NFL. Do you SF has a good D? You do? Well, they happen to give up less yards than any other team, so, some how, their D ranking is relative, but with Pgh, it is not. Do you think Houston has a good D? I do. They just so happen to rank 3rd in D rank, so their D rank is indicative of their strength of D, but again, when it comes to Pgh, their ranking is meaningless, while the other high ranking teams ranks seem accurate. Wow, that's weird. Do you think the Saints have a good D? You don't? They happen to rank last, so their ranking is indicative as well, it's just the Steelers who have a ranking not relative to the truth, I guess.>

Bullcrap. SF and Houston both give up low yardage and get after the quarterback. Our D is ranked in yardage, but is having a very pitiful year for putting pressure on the QB. The worst since 1988. That is directly tied to how poorly the D-line is playing.

There are about 14 or 15 teams playing the 3-4 right now. There are maybe one or two teams who's D-line I wouldn't take over ours right now.




The TOP stat is meaningless and deceptive. Anyone with eyes can tell that the offense isn't really that good at TOP, just like you say about the defensive ranking. <insert sarcasm and rolling of eyes>

Ha ha. The D rankings are completely relative. What matters is how many points you are giving up. This team only plays D at home. Look at the points per game they give up on the road versus home.

This D-line is playing pathetically right now.

lloydroid
11-03-2012, 06:21 PM
Bullcrap. SF and Houston both give up low yardage and get after the quarterback. Our D is ranked in yardage, but is having a very pitiful year for putting pressure on the QB. The worst since 1988. That is directly tied to how poorly the D-line is playing.

Except for the little fact that our 3-4 doesn't have pressure to the QB from the DL. Other than that, you got it just right.

flippy
11-03-2012, 06:30 PM
Except for the little fact that our 3-4 doesn't have pressure to the QB from the DL. Other than that, you got it just right.

The more push you get up the middle, the more effective your OLBs can be. If the QB can step up in a pocket, the OLBs will never get to the QB. If he's gotta drop 7 steps and can't step up, your LBs have a chance to get to him and pressure him.

A 3-4 DL should collapse the pocket. We don't.

Chadman
11-04-2012, 10:50 AM
Flip nailed it earlier- the DL regression is coming from Hampton, and the lack of a suitable replacement for him.

Hood is getting bashed a lot in here, but he's playing mostly the same as he has the last 2 seasons, and both those seasons he was fine. Whether he is playing up to a '1st round' quality or not is debatable, but that is beside the point.

Hampton is not the dominating player he was. Now, Chadman isn't blaming Hampton necessarily. This situation should have been rectified 3-4 years ago. It's not like the Steelers were unaware of the DL's age. We could have had Terrence Cody. Ron Brace. Red Bryant. Any of those guys would have been able to have transitioned into the NT role this season, instead of having to retain Hampton because there was no better option.

Ta'amu might be the answer. That said, even next year might be too early for him. But chances are, we'll have to live with the growing pains.

McLendon doesn't have the bulk to be an every-down 3-4 NT in this system. He's a hustle guy. He's Chris Hoke. He's good in situations, and as a spot starter. But we need that bull up front.

The Steelers DL is at a similar point in it's life as when the Steelers signed Kimo, way back when. Not sure if you remember, but Kimo came over to replace Joel Steed. Now, one thing we learned early was that Kimo was no Steed. He got pushed around all over the place. The result was one of the poorer DL's we have witnessed for the Steelers over the last 20 years. But they got it right by drafting Hampton. Well, Ta'amu needs to be our new Hampton. Once he's inserted, and he finds his feet, Hood & Keisel will look far more effective.

Hampton should be gone next season. Chadman isn't convinced Ta'amu is ready to start next season. A short term transition NT in FA would be a very wise move.

Oviedo
11-04-2012, 11:33 AM
Flip nailed it earlier- the DL regression is coming from Hampton, and the lack of a suitable replacement for him.

Hood is getting bashed a lot in here, but he's playing mostly the same as he has the last 2 seasons, and both those seasons he was fine. Whether he is playing up to a '1st round' quality or not is debatable, but that is beside the point.

Hampton is not the dominating player he was. Now, Chadman isn't blaming Hampton necessarily. This situation should have been rectified 3-4 years ago. It's not like the Steelers were unaware of the DL's age. We could have had Terrence Cody. Ron Brace. Red Bryant. Any of those guys would have been able to have transitioned into the NT role this season, instead of having to retain Hampton because there was no better option.

Ta'amu might be the answer. That said, even next year might be too early for him. But chances are, we'll have to live with the growing pains.

McLendon doesn't have the bulk to be an every-down 3-4 NT in this system. He's a hustle guy. He's Chris Hoke. He's good in situations, and as a spot starter. But we need that bull up front.

The Steelers DL is at a similar point in it's life as when the Steelers signed Kimo, way back when. Not sure if you remember, but Kimo came over to replace Joel Steed. Now, one thing we learned early was that Kimo was no Steed. He got pushed around all over the place. The result was one of the poorer DL's we have witnessed for the Steelers over the last 20 years. But they got it right by drafting Hampton. Well, Ta'amu needs to be our new Hampton. Once he's inserted, and he finds his feet, Hood & Keisel will look far more effective.

Hampton should be gone next season. Chadman isn't convinced Ta'amu is ready to start next season. A short term transition NT in FA would be a very wise move.

Got to hope Ta'amu is not in jail next year.

I agree, Hood gets bashed a alot but the first round grief he gets is unwarranted. He is told to play in a system where he is not asked to be a difference maker. he is asked to sacrifice his body so other can make plays.

As far as Hampton, we should not have brought him back. He barely gets 1 yard of penetration on the other side of the LOS and is being controlled more and more by one man. I would disagree with you about McLendon. I would rather see him get most of the snaps at NT and bring hampton in to give him a rest not vice versa.

Steelhere10
11-04-2012, 01:00 PM
That is false about McClendon bulk, He is actual 340 I read but D Lebeau refuse to play him . He is obvious better than Hampton and Hayward is bettter than Kiesel.

Chadman
11-04-2012, 06:03 PM
Don't know what size McLendon actually is- he doesn't play 'heavy' enough though, as in he doesn't command 2-3 blockers in order to shift him like Hampton & Steed did. The front 3 need to attract at least 1 more blocker to them in order to open up lanes for the LB's. This is why Smith was so good- he'd command double teamed blockers at all times. Hampton too. That's 4 OL occupied. Right now, Hampton does not command double teams. Neither does Hood. Keisel does, from what Chadman has seen. For the LB's to shine, we need the DL to be effective. Right now, the DL is not playing at the level it needs to.

Wouldn't be bagging Heyward just yet. Reckon he's going to be the pick of our DL in a year or two.