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View Full Version : Are we really this spoled and mental?



lloydroid
11-01-2012, 05:23 PM
Looking round here, you'd think we had the worst D in the NFL.

This just in.

We have the #2 over all D, and the #1 D vs. the pass. And yet, we sit here and act like our pass D is just horrible. All it is is the very best in the NFL. Geez. How bad can our DBs be if we are the very best pass D in the league? And this is withOUT having Troy play.

SDSteel1
11-01-2012, 05:30 PM
Got to complain about something, we are Steeler fans!:)

Oviedo
11-01-2012, 05:54 PM
Spoiled = Absolutely

Mental = Probably

fezziwig
11-01-2012, 06:39 PM
I was never that much into stats or at least you can throw all the begining of the season stats out and come playoffs, they don't mean too much me then either. To me this is the identity time of the season for a team because by now, they are usually showing what their true colors are. I think our colors are the great black n gold that usually gets the job done most seasons. Yeah, we had our problems here and there but I think we are turning the corner and hopefully if things keep building the way they have been we, could be on our way to another good season.
We could have easily been 6-1 or 7-0 this season in my opinion. Banged up defense, new OC, new faces taking on new responsibilities it could all be ironing itself out if they keep their focus.

Lonbull
11-01-2012, 07:01 PM
I find it very odd -- that no matter how poorly the Offense plays it never seems to be their fault that they lost the game on most message boards I've been apart of.

If our offense can only score 3 points in a game -- it's expected that the defense perform a shut-out.....rarely is it seen the other way -- that if our #1 Defense allows 16 points in a game the offense should be able to score 17.

Spoiled has always been a problem for most Steelers fans IMO ---- However I will say this --- I think Steelers fans (and "real" football fans) are having some adjustment issues with the "New" NFL.

The NFL right now is (IMO) a hybrid between what it was up to the mid-90's and Arena style football scoring. 5,000 passing yards had only been achieved once in NFL history when Dan Marino did it in 1984 and for the next 16 seasons the leading QB in passing yards fell about 300 (or more) yards short of 5,000.

In the past 5 seasons 5,000 yards has been eclipsed twice and last season Brees threw for an additional 476 yards on top of 5000 --- which equates to almost 350 yards a game.....when you consider that 300 yards used to be kind of big deal -- that's a sizeable change in the way the game is being played. Also you have to keep in mind that Personal Fouls and Pass Interference are called far more often and that just makes it more of an offensive game.

I understand that certain fans "hear" that the Steelers Defense is #1 in the league and just don't care.....I read one poster here who said that "Our defense was the kind that looked good statistically, but in reality wasn't very good".....and I'm thinking HUH??? Granted the team is only as good as their record, but the numbers you produce are all you can really show at the end of the day.

I think many fans (especially Steeler fans who have come to enjoy great defensive play) are waiting to see defense like they remember it.....but in reality the NFL isn't the same league as when guys like Rod Woodson and Greg Lloyd were playing....let alone going further back to the days of Jack Lambert and Mel Blount.

And in no way do I believe those players from the past were simply better, or better coached -- the league has simply changed.

Like it or not the NFL likes being a Peyton Manning kind of league -- squeeky clean players, lots of endorsement possibilities, and lots of passing yards.....perhaps their is some irony in the fact that an offensive Quarterback from today is matched with a star defensive player from the past. Where the league is now....and where it was.


http://external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQA6kMjYXlToiTMF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FunzqtPcXXr0%2 Fmqdefault.jpg&jq=100

RuthlessBurgher
11-01-2012, 07:55 PM
Exactly...when you compare the Steeler D of today to Steeler D of yesteryear, it cannot possibly matchup, strictly because of the new era of Goodell's air-it-out and don't-hit-anyone-hard pansy league. It's seems like we are giving up way more yards and points compared to the Lloyd-Woodson-Lake Steelers or the Mean Joe-Lambert-Blount Steelers because we are...every team is giving up more yards and points because of this new offensive era. It's like comparing the home run numbers in baseball during the roid-crazy Bonds-McGwire-Sosa era to the dead ball era...can't even compare.

But, when we compare our defense of today to other defenses of today...we are consistent top-notch year-after-year-after-year. We may not be flashy with a ton of picks and runbacks for touchdowns, but we are quietly effective. It's may not be as exciting as the dominance of the Steel Curtain or Blitzburgh, because no defense is allowed to be truly dominant anymore. But if our defense can simply do it's job (and it has been...in spite of numerous injuries...after some early season slip-ups), a team with a solid defense and a franchise QB like we have will always be a contender.

Oviedo
11-01-2012, 08:07 PM
I find it very odd -- that no matter how poorly the Offense plays it never seems to be their fault that they lost the game on most message boards I've been apart of.

If our offense can only score 3 points in a game -- it's expected that the defense perform a shut-out.....rarely is it seen the other way -- that if our #1 Defense allows 16 points in a game the offense should be able to score 17.

Spoiled has always been a problem for most Steelers fans IMO ---- However I will say this --- I think Steelers fans (and "real" football fans) are having some adjustment issues with the "New" NFL.

The NFL right now is (IMO) a hybrid between what it was up to the mid-90's and Arena style football scoring. 5,000 passing yards had only been achieved once in NFL history when Dan Marino did it in 1984 and for the next 16 seasons the leading QB in passing yards fell about 300 (or more) yards short of 5,000.

In the past 5 seasons 5,000 yards has been eclipsed twice and last season Brees threw for an additional 476 yards on top of 5000 --- which equates to almost 350 yards a game.....when you consider that 300 yards used to be kind of big deal -- that's a sizeable change in the way the game is being played. Also you have to keep in mind that Personal Fouls and Pass Interference are called far more often and that just makes it more of an offensive game.

I understand that certain fans "hear" that the Steelers Defense is #1 in the league and just don't care.....I read one poster here who said that "Our defense was the kind that looked good statistically, but in reality wasn't very good".....and I'm thinking HUH??? Granted the team is only as good as their record, but the numbers you produce are all you can really show at the end of the day.

I think many fans (especially Steeler fans who have come to enjoy great defensive play) are waiting to see defense like they remember it.....but in reality the NFL isn't the same league as when guys like Rod Woodson and Greg Lloyd were playing....let alone going further back to the days of Jack Lambert and Mel Blount.

And in no way do I believe those players from the past were simply better, or better coached -- the league has simply changed.

Like it or not the NFL likes being a Peyton Manning kind of league -- squeeky clean players, lots of endorsement possibilities, and lots of passing yards.....perhaps their is some irony in the fact that an offensive Quarterback from today is matched with a star defensive player from the past. Where the league is now....and where it was.


http://external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQA6kMjYXlToiTMF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FunzqtPcXXr0%2 Fmqdefault.jpg&jq=100

What message boards are you reading. For the past three years we have read nothing about how screwed up the offense is, how they don't possess the ball, how they don't let the defense rest, etc. etc.

It has always been the offenses fault until it so obviously isn't this year that people can't ignore the defensive problems.

hawaiiansteel
11-01-2012, 08:17 PM
What message boards are you reading. For the past three years we have read nothing about how screwed up the offense is, how they don't possess the ball, how they don't let the defense rest, etc. etc.




I agree, Bruce Arians bashing has run rampant here for the last couple of years.

lloydroid
11-01-2012, 11:52 PM
Exactly...when you compare the Steeler D of today to Steeler D of yesteryear, it cannot possibly matchup, strictly because of the new era of Goodell's air-it-out and don't-hit-anyone-hard pansy league. It's seems like we are giving up way more yards and points compared to the Lloyd-Woodson-Lake Steelers or the Mean Joe-Lambert-Blount Steelers because we are...every team is giving up more yards and points because of this new offensive era. It's like comparing the home run numbers in baseball during the roid-crazy Bonds-McGwire-Sosa era to the dead ball era...can't even compare.

But, when we compare our defense of today to other defenses of today...we are consistent top-notch year-after-year-after-year. We may not be flashy with a ton of picks and runbacks for touchdowns, but we are quietly effective. It's may not be as exciting as the dominance of the Steel Curtain or Blitzburgh, because no defense is allowed to be truly dominant anymore. But if our defense can simply do it's job (and it has been...in spite of numerous injuries...after some early season slip-ups), a team with a solid defense and a franchise QB like we have will always be a contender.

Very well said.

grotonsteel
11-02-2012, 05:51 AM
Looking round here, you'd think we had the worst D in the NFL.

This just in.

We have the #2 over all D, and the #1 D vs. the pass. And yet, we sit here and act like our pass D is just horrible. All it is is the very best in the NFL. Geez. How bad can our DBs be if we are the very best pass D in the league? And this is withOUT having Troy play.

I think the biggest reason Steelers are #2 D overall is because of the Offense holding the ball for long time. I am not saying Defense sucks but seriously i don't think they are a dominant D. This Steelers D is No Sack-No Turnover D.

flippy
11-02-2012, 06:12 AM
Ranking D's by yardage never tells the whole story. We may be #2 in yards, but we're #10 in points per game.

Look at it this way, do you trust the D on the field with the game on the line at the end of a game? Stats go out the window at that point.

All that said, I've said I hold Ben accountable. The offense is #13 in scoring afterall. So you could argue the D is holding up it's end of the bargain better than the O.

On the other hand, would you rather have Ben on the field with the game on the line? I would too. So again, stats are misleading.

Mister Pittsburgh
11-02-2012, 06:57 AM
Interceptions, forced fumbles, sacks....how do we stack up there?
Our offense is still middle of the pack as well.

Oviedo
11-02-2012, 07:35 AM
Interceptions, forced fumbles, sacks....how do we stack up there?
Our offense is still middle of the pack as well.


I dare say we are probably in the lower half in some areas of "game changing" stats. That is where we are failing.

flippy
11-02-2012, 08:15 AM
Interceptions, forced fumbles, sacks....how do we stack up there?
Our offense is still middle of the pack as well.

The 49ers have played 1 more game than us and have 3 more INTs, 2 fewer FFs, and 3 more sacks. Not that big a difference. Yet most think they have the best defense in the league.

They have given up 7.7 less points per game. Not sure those stats are driving the point differential.

Shawn
11-02-2012, 08:32 AM
Spoiled = Absolutely

Mental = Probably

Now see I would have reversed the two.

JDSteeler
11-02-2012, 09:36 AM
I agree, Bruce Arians bashing has run rampant here for the last couple of years.

And The bashing was uttlery and completely deserved!!!!

F the Fat F!!!!

JD

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
11-02-2012, 10:41 AM
2008 - Steeler Defense overall YPG 237.2 ranked #1
2008 - Steeler Defense passing YPG 156.9 ranked #1
2008 - Steeler Defense sacks ranked #2
2008 - Steeler Defense interceptions ranked T#6

2012 - Steeler Defense overall YPG 274.1 ranked #2
2012 - Steeler Defense passing YPG 182.6 ranked #1
2012 - Steeler Defense sacks ranked T#25
2012 - Steeler Defense interceptions ranked T#27

So.....where is it that we seem to be lacking on D?

Oviedo
11-02-2012, 10:59 AM
2008 - Steeler Defense overall YPG 237.2 ranked #1
2008 - Steeler Defense passing YPG 156.9 ranked #1
2008 - Steeler Defense sacks ranked #2
2008 - Steeler Defense interceptions ranked T#6

2012 - Steeler Defense overall YPG 274.1 ranked #2
2012 - Steeler Defense passing YPG 182.6 ranked #1
2012 - Steeler Defense sacks ranked T#25
2012 - Steeler Defense interceptions ranked T#27

So.....where is it that we seem to be lacking on D?

Lacking in the important game changing plays. Where you rank means nothing because that is calculated on yards. That's why for two plus years I've been saying our defense isn't working because we aren't getting the sacks and INTs that change games.

papillon
11-02-2012, 11:10 AM
Lacking in the important game changing plays. Where you rank means nothing because that is calculated on yards. That's why for two plus years I've been saying our defense isn't working because we aren't getting the sacks and INTs that change games.

And, they have been giving up game changing drives in the 4th quarter, which goes back to the fact that the offense isn't scoring enough points and this highlights why football is ultimate "team" sport. The offense has a direct impact on the defense and vice versa. The offense and defense both seem to play well for 3 quarters, but then at crunch time the defense will give up a game tying or losing drive and the offense seems to flounder.

Both units need to tighten things up late in the game (like against the Skins) and the Steelers will be a tough out the rest of the season.

Pappy

grotonsteel
11-02-2012, 11:16 AM
Time for Steelers to draft some game changing players on D preferably Linebackers and Safety.

And once players are drafted make sure they don't take 3 yrs to hit the field because they could not get the playbook.

RuthlessBurgher
11-02-2012, 12:31 PM
To be able to lead the league in defensive yardage allowed without very many turnovers or sacks is seemingly an even more impressive accomplishment if you think about it. The teams that get a ton or turnovers cut opponent's drives short, and the teams that get a ton of sacks put the opponent's in many third and long situations that are difficult to convert. We are not doing either of those things on a regular basis, but are still holding our opponents to less yards than those team that do.

pittpete
11-02-2012, 12:48 PM
Any Steeler fan who watches every game can argue against this stat.
You know as well as I that the Steelers
-gave up 11 passing TD's(middle of the pack)
-are tied for 4th in the NFL with the worst 3rd down opponents conversion %
Do the stats look great on paper?
Hell yeah.....
Does a knowledgeable Steelers fan who doesn't miss a play see otherwise?
Hell yeah
The pass def. has room for improvement, always has always will

feltdizz
11-02-2012, 01:03 PM
Any Steeler fan who watches every game can argue against this stat.
You know as well as I that the Steelers
-gave up 11 passing TD's(middle of the pack)
-are tied for 4th in the NFL with the worst 3rd down opponents conversion %
Do the stats look great on paper?
Hell yeah.....
Does a knowledgeable Steelers fan who doesn't miss a play see otherwise?
Hell yeah
The pass def. has room for improvement, always has always will

Bingo!!!! Solid post... The #1 ranking didn't stop Oakland, Tennessee or Denver when we needed it. Don't get me wrong.. I understand Denver has a great QB but the other 2 teams? Nah.. we didn't look #1.

I want our D to impose it's will on bad teams... until that happens I'm not going to celebrate.

Oviedo
11-02-2012, 01:13 PM
Bingo!!!! Solid post... The #1 ranking didn't stop Oakland, Tennessee or Denver when we needed it. Don't get me wrong.. I understand Denver has a great QB but the other 2 teams? Nah.. we didn't look #1.

I want our D to impose it's will on bad teams... until that happens I'm not going to celebrate.

You can't impose your will unless you can get the opposing QB on the ground. We have become very mediocre in doing that. We can cite injuries all we want but the reality is you have to adjust because the need to sack opposing QBs doesn't go away because someone is hurt.

Sugar
11-02-2012, 01:57 PM
You can't impose your will unless you can get the opposing QB on the ground.

Sorry, but that is simply not the case.

lloydroid
11-02-2012, 03:22 PM
Ranking D's by yardage never tells the whole story. We may be #2 in yards, but we're #10 in points per game.

Look at it this way, do you trust the D on the field with the game on the line at the end of a game? Stats go out the window at that point.

All that said, I've said I hold Ben accountable. The offense is #13 in scoring afterall. So you could argue the D is holding up it's end of the bargain better than the O.

On the other hand, would you rather have Ben on the field with the game on the line? I would too. So again, stats are misleading.

Rankings by yards does not tell the whole story, but it certainly DOES tell some of the truth. They are #1 vs. the pass; you can't tell me that that's a completely irrelevant stat. Teams get less yards, per game, passing against the Steelers than any other team. You can't tell me that's not a reflection on our D at all. And all of this is without China Doll Troy on the field.

lloydroid
11-02-2012, 03:32 PM
So let me summarize: If the Steelers' D doesn't lead the league in picks, fumble recoveries, sacks, points, yards against in passing and rushing, then it stinks and we should be unhappy? OK, got it.

Is this D the greatest of all time? Of course not. There are only 3 teams in that discussion: The 70's Steelers, the 1985 Bears and the 2000 Ravens. Is this D so bad that we should complain about it like it just stinks? No. Supposedly, this team has little hope of winning without Troy in the line up, and they are putting up these stats without him (and BOY, am I getting sick of seeing his lame arse on the sidelines.) My point wasn't that this D is perfect. My point was it isn't nearly as bad as many of us gripe about. There are probably 28 teams that would trade for our D right now. And if Pola-fragile ever comes back, it will be even more so.

lloydroid
11-02-2012, 03:36 PM
You can't impose your will unless you can get the opposing QB on the ground. We have become very mediocre in doing that. We can cite injuries all we want but the reality is you have to adjust because the need to sack opposing QBs doesn't go away because someone is hurt.

Harrison isn't whole, neither is Woodley; they are our top guys to get to the passer. And, you are not correct: There have been many fabulous and effective Ds that didn't put up huge sack #s. Getting lots of sacks is sure fun and exciting, but not mandatory in creating solids Ds.

feltdizz
11-02-2012, 03:39 PM
So let me summarize: If the Steelers' D doesn't lead the league in picks, fumble recoveries, sacks, points, yards against in passing and rushing, then it stinks and we should be unhappy? OK, got it.

Is this D the greatest of all time? Of course not. There are only 3 teams in that discussion: The 70's Steelers, the 1985 Bears and the 2000 Ravens. Is this D so bad that we should complain about it like it just stinks? No. Supposedly, this team has little hope of winning without Troy in the line up, and they are putting up these stats without him (and BOY, am I getting sick of seeing his lame arse on the sidelines.) My point wasn't that this D is perfect. My point was it isn't nearly as bad as many of us gripe about. There are probably 28 teams that would trade for our D right now. And if Pola-fragile ever comes back, it will be even more so.

hmmm... I don't think there are 28 teams who would trade their D for ours... probably 14 to 15 but not 28.

my biggest problem with our D is the lack of TO's... I remember when our D used to get game changing, game saving TO's.. that hasn't happened too often since 2008.

lloydroid
11-02-2012, 03:43 PM
The 49ers have played 1 more game than us and have 3 more INTs, 2 fewer FFs, and 3 more sacks. Not that big a difference. Yet most think they have the best defense in the league.

They have given up 7.7 less points per game. Not sure those stats are driving the point differential.

And, as a support stat, SF has the #1 rated D by yards, so, in this case, the yards against stat actually are a perfect indicator to the quality of the D; I don't think many would argue that SF doesn't have a superior D to Pgh. The 7.7 points less per game is a pretty huge indicator that their D is better. SF is solid as hell on D. They got two huge play makers on the line and some of the most beastly LBs on earth, in their prime. And couple of DBs who are excellent. If there is a better LB than Pat Willis, I don't know who that would be. (I so wished we traded up to draft him.)