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hawaiiansteel
10-17-2012, 02:09 PM
Cook: Tomlin not to blame for lack of discipline

October 16, 2012
Ron Cook / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://d4493f2df0d1b95cfc62-773cd17a86049dd672fafb96394debed.r5.cf2.rackcdn.co m/2012/289/642/coach-tomlin_420.jpg

One of the great misconceptions in Pittsburgh sports history is that former Steelers coach Bill Cowher ruled with an iron fist. Nothing could be further from the truth. A case could be made that Cowher was a soft touch with his players. Former Steelers running back Jerome Bettis made just such a case when he talked about wide receiver Plaxico Burress leaving the team to go play for the New York Giants and their very real tough-guy coach, Tom Coughlin.

"I know [Burress] is not a stickler for the rules and Coughlin is all about rules ... Coach Cowher allowed us a lot of flexibility. He never fined us for anything. You came late, you never got fined. You never got reprimanded for anything."

This is relevant this morning because Steelers coach Mike Tomlin has come under fire for not being tough enough with his players. The team is a disappointing 2-3. Penalties are up. One player became a tweeting fool last week, taking on at least some members of the most supportive fan base in sports. Another player was arrested early Sunday morning after going on a South Side rampage that, if the charges hold up in court, should lead to serious prison time.

If I had a dime for every complaint I've heard about Tomlin this week, I'd be a wealthy man.

"The Steelers are undisciplined."

"Tomlin is an undisciplined coach."

"Tomlin cares more about being the players' friend than their boss."

And my favorite:

"This kind of stuff didn't happen under Cowher and Chuck Noll."

Nonsense.

This kind of stuff happened under Cowher and even the great Hall of Famer Noll. Remember the 1973 incident involving former Steelers defensive tackle Ernie Holmes? He fired shots at a police helicopter that was pursuing him in a chase on the Ohio Turnpike. Was that Noll's fault? Was he an undisciplined coach?

If Tomlin has made a mistake, it's that he has treated his players as men. Cowher and Noll did the same thing. Unfortunately, the players occasionally act like juveniles or -- worse -- criminals.

It's tougher to coach today than it was during Cowher's time or especially Noll's time. Character isn't as prized a quality as it used to be. Too often, talent trumps all. Good players get second chances after abhorrent behavior. Great players get third, fourth and even fifth chances.

You hear a lot about the Steelers Way, but it's no different than most teams. The organization stands behind its good players when they screw up. They kept quarterback Ben Roethlisberger after he was accused twice, though never charged, of sexual assault. They gave linebacker James Harrison a six-year, $51.175 million contract after he was involved in a domestic abuse incident. They made kicker Jeff Reed their franchise player and agreed to pay him $2.814 million after he twice was involved with police in alcohol-related incidents.

But heaven help the marginal player who gets in trouble. The Steelers were quick to release wide receiver Cedrick Wilson after a domestic incident at roughly the same time as Harrison's. It easy to take a moral stand with a guy who can't help you win.

There's no question the Steelers will stick with serial Twitter violator Rashard Mendenhall. He's a good player. Mendenhall, who issued offensive tweets in May 2011 showing sympathy for the death of Osama bin Laden, was back on Twitter after the team's loss Thursday night to the Tennessee Titans. He took on critical fans, saying that real fans are supportive of the team. It's never smart for an athlete to get into a hissing contest with the team's customers. He can't win.

But what Mendenhall did was nothing compared to the headaches caused by rookie nose tackle Alameda Ta'amu Sunday morning. Ta'amu was arrested after allegedly fleeing police while driving drunk, nearly running down three police officers and hitting a number of parking cars, injuring a woman in one. Ta'amu, who didn't dress for any of the five games, might not be good enough to get out of that mess.

I don't blame Tomlin for Ta'amu being a jerk, just as I don't blame Noll for the Holmes incident. Sadly, these things happen to all coaches. Even tough-guy Coughlin had problems with Burress, who was playing for the Giants when he walked into a Manhattan club in November 2008 with an unlicensed handgun and shot himself in the leg.

Maybe Tomlin could do more to correct the Steelers' penalty problem, but I'm not sure what. I know he preaches all the time about penalties. The thing is, the players don't always get the message. After a loss to the Cincinnati Bengals in 2006, Cowher, angry about his team taking dumb penalties, including an excessive celebration call against running backs Willie Parker and Verron Haynes and a taunting call on safety Mike Logan, said, "That will not happen again. That's on me. Trust me, that will not happen again." In the next game against the Atlanta Falcons, wide receivers Nate Washington, Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes were penalized for excessive celebration. In the game after that against the Oakland Raiders, linebackers Joey Porter and Larry Foote and safety Anthony Smith were penalized for personal fouls.

"I guess never say never," Cowher said.

If you want to blame Tomlin for something, blame him and general manager Kevin Colbert for not drafting better defensive players of late.

Defensive end Cameron Heyward was a No. 1 pick in 2011 but can't get on the field. Linebacker Jason Worilds was a No. 2 pick in'10 but largely has been a disappointment. Defensive end Ziggy Hood was a No. 1 pick in '09 but hasn't made much of an impact since the '10 season.

Blame Tomlin all you want for that 2-3 record. He's a fair target. But know this: He is not an undisciplined coach.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz29Z6l8Zqv

RKSteel
10-17-2012, 02:57 PM
If you want to blame Tomlin for something, blame him and general manager Kevin Colbert for not drafting better defensive players of late.

Defensive end Cameron Heyward was a No. 1 pick in 2011 but can't get on the field. Linebacker Jason Worilds was a No. 2 pick in'10 but largely has been a disappointment. Defensive end Ziggy Hood was a No. 1 pick in '09 but hasn't made much of an impact since the '10 season.

Blame Tomlin all you want for that 2-3 record. He's a fair target. But know this: He is not an undisciplined coach.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz29Z6l8Zqv Here is the real story, but one that probably will not be written about.

Sugar
10-17-2012, 03:58 PM
I can't believe that anyone would think that Mendenhalls tweets are even an issue at all. smh...

steelz09
10-17-2012, 05:35 PM
Here is the real story, but one that probably will not be written about.

Wait a second. Tomlin has zero say in the draft process according to some. It's all Colbert's fault :roll:

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
10-17-2012, 05:35 PM
I have taken all of the discussion of the team's lack of discipline to relate to penalties and Special Teams breakdowns. A lack of discipline is whooping it up for a minor accomplishment like batting down a pass or rushing for 5 yards. The rest is about immaturity of men. In another thread I wrote that Tomlin could not have as much input as Cowher did when it comes to the draft, so how could I blame him for the immaturity of those who were drafted?

Now get Big Willie to stop false starting every play and I'll be happier with discipline!!

feltdizz
10-17-2012, 06:12 PM
I don't blame Tonkin or Colbert... there is no way to predict how a young man is going to react to success, fame, failure, etc...

lloydroid
10-17-2012, 06:48 PM
I call bull crap on all of this. Someone HAS to be accountable for lack of discipline problems. It's not some ghost or undefinable, uncorrectable problem, and I will tell you how you fix it: by providing CONSISTENT punishment and rewards on the front. Just like in raising kids, you MUST provide CONSISTENT guidance, addressing right and wrong, and making sure the players know sloppiness will not be tolerated. Now, WHO is in position to best address this? The head coach. Obviously, something is wrong with how the team is being run. This author is full of crap. Can a team do anything to prevent things like Ernie Holmes shooting at a cop helicopter? Not much. Football players are no choir boys. They are beasts, many of whom are from pretty hard core places. But just because that is true doesn't mean the team is helpless in making players reduce penalties. You want to know how to do that? Start punishing and rewarding on that front, on a CONSISTENT basis where the players KNOW there will never be any where to hide, and if they commit sloppy penalties, then there will be a price to pay.

How is this NOT the head coach's job? Did you ever see that clip of Coughlin, screaming "We lost the game due to a penalty!" I bet his teams won't commit so many penalties. Why? Because he is consistent with addressing it. Tomlin is so super cool in his sunglasses etc. But that "coolness" is worth about as much as Obama's "coolness" i.e. nothing.

There is a difference between players who just lose it, and commit crimes, and those making dumb penalties. It is hardly one and the same.

BURGH86STEEL
10-17-2012, 07:04 PM
I call bull crap on all of this. Someone HAS to be accountable for lack of discipline problems. It's not some ghost or undefinable, uncorrectable problem, and I will tell you how you fix it: by providing CONSISTENT punishment and rewards on the front. Just like in raising kids, you MUST provide CONSISTENT guidance, addressing right and wrong, and making sure the players know sloppiness will not be tolerated. Now, WHO is in position to best address this? The head coach. Obviously, something is wrong with how the team is being run. This author is full of crap. Can a team do anything to prevent things like Ernie Holmes shooting at a cop helicopter? Not much. Football players are no choir boys. They are beasts, many of whom are from pretty hard core places. But just because that is true doesn't mean the team is helpless in making players reduce penalties. You want to know how to do that? Start punishing and rewarding on that front, on a CONSISTENT basis where the players KNOW there will never be any where to hide, and if they commit sloppy penalties, then there will be a price to pay.

How is this NOT the head coach's job? Did you ever see that clip of Coughlin, screaming "We lost the game due to a penalty!" I bet his teams won't commit so many penalties. Why? Because he is consistent with addressing it. Tomlin is so super cool in his sunglasses etc. But that "coolness" is worth about as much as Obama's "coolness" i.e. nothing.

There is a difference between players who just lose it, and commit crimes, and those making dumb penalties. It is hardly one and the same.

The individuals need to held accountable themselves. They are grown men and not children.

stopplayn
10-17-2012, 07:19 PM
Yeah, It was Cowhers fault that Ben wrecked on his bike? Pfffft. It was Cowhers fault that Bam Morris got caught with all that grass? Pffffft
It was Cowhers fault that Joey Porter got shot in Denver? Pffffft.

Sugar
10-17-2012, 09:15 PM
The individuals need to held accountable themselves. They are grown men and not children.

Many of whom make more money than their coach. That said, the bench can be a motivational place. Didn't Tomlin bench a star DB at Minnesota at one point because he wasn't up to the line?

lloydroid
10-18-2012, 04:34 PM
The individuals need to held accountable themselves. They are grown men and not children.

And when they don't hold themselves accountable and keep making penalties? What then? Just tell them, "You need to hold yourself accountable, you grown men" and nothing changes? Phil Simms summed it up best when he said, "Football is such a crazy sport that you have to have coaches pushing you at all times. You can't do it all on your own. You need coaches to get you more focused and always pushing harder." He is right. There are very few players who are so disciplined and self-motivated that they don't need coaches to keep them in line. There are probably only a few men per team that could pull it off; everyone else needs coaching, including riding them to limit dumb penalties. Who has that job? THE HEAD COACH. It's Tomlin's job to address this; if it continues, he needs to crack some heads. Obviously, he is failing on that end. To dismiss the dumb penalties as not the head coach's job is moronic.

lloydroid
10-18-2012, 04:35 PM
Yeah, It was Cowhers fault that Ben wrecked on his bike? Pfffft. It was Cowhers fault that Bam Morris got caught with all that grass? Pffffft
It was Cowhers fault that Joey Porter got shot in Denver? Pffffft.

We are talking about dumb penalties, not motorcycle accidents. Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ffttttttttttttt

Jigawatts
10-18-2012, 05:42 PM
Character isn't as prized a quality as it used to be. Too often, talent trumps all. Good players get second chances after abhorrent behavior. Great players get third, fourth and even fifth chances.

If Ta'amu doesn't get the boot, I see this as an indicator from the Steelers FO that there's a chance that he's at the very least a good player.:lol:

lloydroid
10-18-2012, 06:02 PM
If Ta'amu doesn't get the boot, I see this as an indicator from the Steelers FO that there's a chance that he's at the very least a good player.:lol:

I mean, they already gave him a 2-game suspension! What else can you expect them to do?

BURGH86STEEL
10-18-2012, 07:46 PM
And when they don't hold themselves accountable and keep making penalties? What then? Just tell them, "You need to hold yourself accountable, you grown men" and nothing changes? Phil Simms summed it up best when he said, "Football is such a crazy sport that you have to have coaches pushing you at all times. You can't do it all on your own. You need coaches to get you more focused and always pushing harder." He is right. There are very few players who are so disciplined and self-motivated that they don't need coaches to keep them in line. There are probably only a few men per team that could pull it off; everyone else needs coaching, including riding them to limit dumb penalties. Who has that job? THE HEAD COACH. It's Tomlin's job to address this; if it continues, he needs to crack some heads. Obviously, he is failing on that end. To dismiss the dumb penalties as not the head coach's job is moronic.

Players know what they should or should not do. At some point, if players don't do what's necessary they eventually get replaced. When and how players are replaced depends on different factors. Phil Simms can't speak for every player in the league.

Coaches can't keep anyone "in line". What coaches can do is serve as a guide. Whether players listen to coaches is another story.

I am certain players know they should not commit penalties. I am sure coaches address penalties with players. It's all there when players and coaches review game film. Whether players listen to the coaches is another story. If players don't listen to the coaches, players eventually get replaced.

Players know going into games that mistakes of any kind hurt the team's chances to win games. Dumb penalties fall on the players. It's moronic to suggest other wise when the whole world can see who commits those dump penalties.

flippy
10-19-2012, 07:48 AM
Many penalties indicate you're just not talented enough. They aren't always an indicator of mental mistakes.

Slapstick
10-19-2012, 08:36 AM
Many penalties indicate you're just not talented enough. They aren't always an indicator of mental mistakes.

I can't agree...

Pre-snap penalties are definitely mental mistakes...as are personal foul penalties or things like running out of bounds on a kick/punt return...

Pass Interference calls and Holding calls are often just bad luck...the Steelers have been very unlucky this season while their opponents have been extremely lucky...

feltdizz
10-19-2012, 09:08 AM
I can't agree...

Pre-snap penalties are definitely mental mistakes...as are personal foul penalties or things like running out of bounds on a kick/punt return...

Pass Interference calls and Holding calls are often just bad luck...the Steelers have been very unlucky this season while their opponents have been extremely lucky...

bad luck? Ike's PI's have been blatant...

feltdizz
10-19-2012, 09:10 AM
If Ta'amu doesn't get the boot, I see this as an indicator from the Steelers FO that there's a chance that he's at the very least a good player.:lol:

I think it means we are thin at the position...

flippy
10-19-2012, 09:41 AM
I can't agree...

Pre-snap penalties are definitely mental mistakes...as are personal foul penalties or things like running out of bounds on a kick/punt return...

Pass Interference calls and Holding calls are often just bad luck...the Steelers have been very unlucky this season while their opponents have been extremely lucky...

Why does a guy jump early? Often because he knows he needs to get a jump because the guy across from him is bigger, faster, or just a better player.

Personal fouls - They're usually a knucklehead reaction, but they often occur after a guy gets beat by a better player and is expressing frustration and can't control his emotions.

PI and Holding happen when a guy gets beat. They're often an act of desparation to prevent a big play or save a QB from getting hit.

The running out of bounds was a young guy mistake. Philly schooled the kid. Guys usually push a guy out of bounds and Philly didn't touch him. It was a surprising move that I've never really seen before. It was a bit of a forced error. But our young corner learned from it and used against Philly the very next time they punted.

Slapstick
10-19-2012, 11:51 AM
bad luck? Ike's PI's have been blatant...

There are a crapton of PIs that are just as blatant, but never flagged...and not just against the Steelers' WRs...

lloydroid
10-19-2012, 01:53 PM
OK, then everyone explain why some coaches have low penalties while others have teams with the most?

Pgh has more penalty yards than rushing yards. I don't care how you want to spin that - that is awful, non-winning football. But no, the head coach has nothing to do with it. As a matter of fact, no matter what problems the team has NONE of it is ever Tomlin's fault. He's only the head coach; it can't be his fault.

squidkid
10-19-2012, 03:50 PM
lets get this straight.

coaches dont hold players accountable
they dont motivate
they arent responsible for players performance
they arent responsible for players taking stupid penalties
they dont do the drafting
they arent responsible for offense
they arent responsible for defense
they arent responsible for challenge flags

what do they get paid to do then?

lloydroid
10-19-2012, 04:48 PM
lets get this straight.

coaches dont hold players accountable
they dont motivate
they arent responsible for players performance
they arent responsible for players taking stupid penalties
they dont do the drafting
they arent responsible for offense
they arent responsible for defense
they arent responsible for challenge flags

what do they get paid to do then?

Not to mention, why even pay them good $? They are seemingly irrelevant to most every critical matter. Why even keep head coaching records? They aren't crucial to the outcomes of games, it would seem. I mean, Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, Chuck Noll, Bill Walsh, Belichick - why would you pay top $ for a position that seems irrelevant? How come when Sean Peyton was forced away from being the head coach in New Orleans, they started off 0-4? Face it, head coaches DO impact things like the # of penalties, execution of O, D, ST. True, NO coach can be very successful without talent, but really good head coaches can "beat yours with theirs, or theirs with yours." (I forget who said that.) Parcells was famous for knowing everything about every position, from QB, to how to hold your hands when receiving a kick. And he never stopped teaching or keeping you on your toes. There is a reason he improved teams greatly every where he went. Look what he did for NYG, Jets, Pats and Dallas (even with a meddling owner). Good coaches makes a huge difference and bad ones keep losing all the time. Coincidence? Watch Jeff Fisher with the Rams. When are the Pats ever out of it with Belichick?

Slapstick
10-20-2012, 08:21 AM
Good coaches makes a huge difference and bad ones keep losing all the time.

And, clearly, Tomlin has demonstrated over the last 5 seasons that he loses "all the time"...

papillon
10-20-2012, 08:43 AM
And, clearly, Tomlin has demonstrated over the last 5 seasons that he loses "all the time"...

No, his winning percentage in past seasons is good. However, this is 2012 and the team is under performing and the same players are seemingly committing the same penalties over and over again. Just because Bill Cowher didn't hold anyone responsible according to the writer doesn't mean he wasn't doing something about it. False starts, neutral zone, uncovered tight ends, clutching and grabbing seemingly every play, blocks in the back the list of stupid penalties is endless this year,so much so, that the Steelers have more penalty yards than rushing yards. Really? That's an untenable situation for a team that believes they are a contender. Mike Tomlin is responsible for the everything the team does, he may not coach the offensive linemen, but he's responsible; he may not coach the defensive backs, but he's responsible, you get the idea.

A lot of this should fall on his shoulders and I'm sure if you asked him, he'd accept that as the way it should be. You may not like the way the season is going and you may not like Mike tomlin, but one thing about him is that he doesn't back down from his responsibilities as the coach. I like him and believe he can get it turned around for the team, but it needs to start tomorrow.

Pappy

Slapstick
10-20-2012, 12:18 PM
No, his winning percentage in past seasons is good. However, this is 2012 and the team is under performing and the same players are seemingly committing the same penalties over and over again. Just because Bill Cowher didn't hold anyone responsible according to the writer doesn't mean he wasn't doing something about it. False starts, neutral zone, uncovered tight ends, clutching and grabbing seemingly every play, blocks in the back the list of stupid penalties is endless this year,so much so, that the Steelers have more penalty yards than rushing yards. Really? That's an untenable situation for a team that believes they are a contender. Mike Tomlin is responsible for the everything the team does, he may not coach the offensive linemen, but he's responsible; he may not coach the defensive backs, but he's responsible, you get the idea.

A lot of this should fall on his shoulders and I'm sure if you asked him, he'd accept that as the way it should be. You may not like the way the season is going and you may not like Mike tomlin, but one thing about him is that he doesn't back down from his responsibilities as the coach. I like him and believe he can get it turned around for the team, but it needs to start tomorrow.

Pappy

So, why are we arguing about this?

steelz09
10-20-2012, 02:24 PM
The coaches getting a free pass for "on the field" lack of discipline is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.