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View Full Version : Depressing Reality: Colbert/Tomlin's drafts have sucked a bit



BigRob
10-15-2012, 07:14 PM
Very good article on how bad our drafts have been compared to other teams. Depressing reality is that the Ravens have been drafting better than us for a while now.


http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2012/10/13/3500342/part-ii-of-from-cowher-ites-to-villagers-issues-raised-by-sub-groups

Part II: Comparing Tomlin's Drafts to the League 19 (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2012/10/13/3500342/part-ii-of-from-cowher-ites-to-villagers-issues-raised-by-sub-groups#comments)
By PaVaSteeler (http://www.sbnation.com/users/PaVaSteeler) on Oct 13, 11:46p




In Part I, we discussed the Cowher-ites, those citizen of Steeler Nation who, for whatever reason, long for the days of Cowher quality drafted players. While it is understandable to a degree, given that Cowherís defenses epitomized what we all hold in our hearts as what Steeler Defenses should be, they are sadly mistaken in their presumption that, at least in Cowherís first 5 years, his draft picks performed better than the draft picks Mike Tomlin has used to forge his version of the Pittsburgh Steelers (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/pittsburgh-steelers).
Part II: The Villagers
In this Part II, we examine the claims of "The Villagers", so named from a snippet in Billy52ís (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2012/10/13/3496182/winged-glory) FanPost currently receiving well deserved attention. These Villagers are PostRoaches, creatures who are never heard from until thereís a crumb of discontent, then they all come scurrying out to feed, posting all sorts of filth and spreading acrimony, only to disappear again in the bright lights of a subsequent victory.
As Billy52 describes them, " villagers [who] become an unruly mob screaming for the heads of every player, coach and water boy in Rooneyville. "This shall not stand," we bray in unison as we light our torches, bidding to hasten a swift return to our previous state of beer- and glory-sated bliss" . But they got me to thinking, in between posting virtual equivalents of rolled up newspaper swats to send them scurrying, about their claims.
With the delayed ascension of players such as Jason Worilds (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/108423/jason-worilds), Ziggy Hood (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/71112/ziggy-hood), Emmanual Sanders; the unfortunate busts of Limas Sweed (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/34456/limas-sweed), Thaddeus Gibson (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/108468/thaddeus-gibson), Joe Burnett (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/71110/joe-burnett); the disappointing failure to fulfill expectations of William Gay (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/16789/william-gay), Matt Spaeth (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/16794/matt-spaeth), Bruce Davis (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/34442/bruce-davis), these Villagers have begun denouncing Tomlinís draft picks, despite such obvious successes as LaMarr Woodley (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/16799/lamarr-woodley), Antonio Brown (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/108636/antonio-brown), Maurkice Pouncy.

And the data shows, they may be right.

If you look at Tomlinís draft picks, and consider who he could have taken instead of the players he selected, you will find a rather disturbing fact: The Steelers, under Mike Tomlin, rank near the bottom of the NFL in terms of performance of their players, as measured by PFRís CarAV rating system.
I have downloaded every draft pick by every team from 2007 (Tomlinís first year as HC) through 2011. I sorted out Tomlinís picks, then re-sorted those players still available at the time the Steelers picked, and sorted by the top 10 players in terms of CarAV. The results are not pretty.
Assuming for arguments sake that all teams drafted on the basis of (from their perspective) Best Player Available ("BPA") and not for a specific need, then Tomlinís Steelers may be re-loading with blanks as compared to the rest of the League with a CarAV ranking of 29 (except for Seattle, Denver and Washington, who ranked 30 thru 32 respectively over all).
Letís look at Tomlinís 2011 First Round Pick, Cam Heyward. Selected with the 31st pick, as befitting a Super Bowl runner-up. Cam was a bit of a "legacy pick", given his father, Craig "Ironhead" Heyward has such strong ties to the Pittsburgh community, being the 3rd all-time rusher at Pitt.
As part of the (perceived) "re-loading" of the defense, Heyward was drafted to eventually replace Brett Keisel (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/1609/brett-keisel) on the Steelers Defensive line. In 2011 he played in 16 games (starting none), had one sack, 13 tackles, and 2 assists. His PFR CarAV (inclusive of the 2012 season to date) is 2.
Other Defensive Linemen available at the time the Steelers selected Heyward include: Jurrell Casey (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/130950/jurrell-casey), selected by Tennessee Titans (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/tennessee-titans) and Jabaal Sheard (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/131090/jabaal-sheard) selected by the Cleveland Browns (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/cleveland-browns). In the spirit of BPA, the top non- defensive line players available include: Akeem Ayers (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/131170/akeem-ayers), LB, Tennesse Titans, Torrey Smith (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/131112/torrey-smith), WR, Baltimore, and DeMarco Murray (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/131037/demarco-murray), RB, Dallas.
Granted, different positions are given CarAV ratings based on differing criteria. But on the basis of BPA, look at how the names I just referenced compare:
http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1247299/Heyward_20and_20Alts_JPG_medium.jpg (http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1247299/Heyward_20and_20Alts_JPG.jpg)

BigRob
10-15-2012, 07:17 PM
via dl.dropbox.com (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65639065/Comparing%20Draft%20Picks/Heyward%20and%20Alts.JPG)

Sheard and Casey, as fellow Defensive Linemen, have earned much higher scores in the same amount of time. While obviously the Steelers would have no interest in Andy Dalton (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/130796/andy-dalton), nonetheless, there are 9 other players who have scored higher than Heyward.
Out of the 41 draft picks Tomlin has made since becoming Head Coach, only 4 have a CarAV score equal to or higher than the highest of the top 10 BPA available at the time of each pick; only 4 have a score that is greater than the minimum, but not the top score.
Three of the four, you could probably guess: Antonio Brown, Mike Wallace (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/71118/mike-wallace), and LaMarr Woodley; the fourth one you’ll never guess[i] (answer in endnotes!).
This means that 33 draft picks in the Tomlin era, or 80% of the supposed Best Players Available, actually have scored less than the top 10 Alternative Picks Tomlin could have chosen.
Fifteen draft picks have failed to even score above a 0 on the PFR CarAV ratings; that’s 37% of the 41 pick who have not contributed enough to even rate a score. Granted, the Steelers are full of veteran players, and it’s difficult for young players to gain playing time. But the lack of quality depth shown by the backups given the high incidence of injuries these past few years indicates that the Villagers "wailing and gnashing of teeth" may not be so out of line after all.
You might be thinking, as I explained above" "But its not a fair comparison of CarAV scores, if different positions are graded differently; how can you compare a RB or WR score to Cam’s DT score; apples n oranges, you dufus!"
To a degree you are right, and if there is suitable interest shown in the comments section warranting a more detailed post showing specific players and the alternative choices Tomlin had for that same position, I’ll publish one.
Instead, let me continue by showing how the Steelers have fared under Mike Tomlin in terms of "re-loading" the entire roster over his career, as compared to the rest of the league, and two nemesis of the Steelers, the Baltimore Ravens (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/baltimore-ravens) and the New England Patriots (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/new-england-patriots):
http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1247311/Steelers_20ranking_20compared_20to_20League_JPG_me dium.jpg (http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1247311/Steelers_20ranking_20compared_20to_20League_JPG.jp g)
via dl.dropbox.com (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65639065/Comparing%20Draft%20Picks/Steelers%20ranking%20compared%20to%20League.JPG)
Counting all picks, without segregation, the Steelers rank 29th in terms of the CarAV rating of their draft picks from 2007 through 2012 (not counting 2012 draft picks). On Offense, despite Wallace, Brown, and Mendenhall, the Steelers rank…29th. On Defense, the area which is causing the most consternation amongst the Villagers, the Steelers rank 24th. Compare the Steelers rankings, with Baltimore’s: The Ravens rank 2nd over all, 6th on Offense, 7th on Defense. The Patriots, while not nearly as impressive as the Ravens, rank 18th, 11th and 26th respectively.
Given that we face the Ravens in our own Division, and the Patriots (nauseatingly) are a likely opponent in the playoffs year, after year, after year, it really should be a concern to Steeler Nation how well our draft picks stack up against these two perennial roadblocks to our (what many nowadays consider a birthright) next Lombardi trophy.
In summary, there are in fact grounds for concern over the future of our Steelers. Success breeds success, but it also breeds feelings of entitlement in the fans, over time, and a tendency for some to disregard the signs that troubles are ahead. And this counts double for Coaches. One main complaint of the Villagers is the lack of playing time the recently drafted have been allowed. This lack is certainly a contributor to the low scores of Tomlin's picks, but as I suggested above, the plethora of injuries these past few years has negated that, and in fact appears to have exposed some unsettling aspects of our drafting under Mike Tomlin.
Not that that excuses the level of vitriol expressed by a certain few poasters (who shall remain nameless, but you know who you are); they fail to understand that, at least on BTSC, the expectations for the quality level of communication is far higher than Yahoo Sports ESPN, or most any other sports blogs.
You Villagers, you have valid points; just put down the pitchforks and torches, and come sit with us here at BTSC and let’s discuss this rationally. Calling for immediate be-heading of Coaches, or absurd trade scenarios that might work in your Mock Draft Basement League, clouds your message; a message that warrants honest discussion and analysis.

hawaiiansteel
10-15-2012, 07:24 PM
none of the defensive players you mentioned would have scored higher than Heyward if the Steelers had drafted them because those other defensive guys wouldn't have played nearly as much as they have with their current teams.

it takes awhile to learn LeBeau's complex defensive scheme, you know :stirpot

Steelhere10
10-15-2012, 07:33 PM
I think it's more of putting the better players in. And under Lebeau that will never happen , because he loves his slower older vets.

Eddie Spaghetti
10-15-2012, 08:11 PM
we have drafted poorly the last few years, no doubt.

I have always gone on the premise that colbert holds a little more sway in the final results of a particular draft, but if a head coach really covets a player, it usually happens.

didn't take long for someone to blame lebeau, I see. At what point does tomlin bear responsibility for DL allowing these future superstars to languish on the sideline? Its a talent issue on this team and this article bears that out, but the drumbeat must roll on...

Mister Pittsburgh
10-15-2012, 08:11 PM
Some have been saying this for years, but have been called idiots by 'The real fans'. It's clear that Cowher was superior at choosing players compared to Tomlin. Colbert is the common denominator.

i feel the 3-4 is tougher to fill out compared to the 4-3. Back 10 years ago when we drafted a majority of our Superbowl winning vets, not near as many teams ran the 3-4 so we had more of a selection in the later rounds.

pittpete
10-15-2012, 08:32 PM
678
..........................................

steelz09
10-15-2012, 09:52 PM
It's all Colbert's fault... never blame Tomlin for anything.

But isn't it odd that majority of the poor drafts started during the Tomlin era?

Hmmmm interesting.

1. Colbert suddenly forgot how to draft immediately after the Tomlin hiring

2. The drafts are still solid but Tomlin isn't developing the talent

3. Tomlin's input into the draft process has caused us to draft poorly

The answer is within #2 and #3. I doubt Colbert suddenly forgot how to draft immediately after Tomlin's hiring.

stopplayn
10-15-2012, 10:22 PM
Ben Roethlilsberger, Troy Polamalu, James Harrison and Heath Miller. ALL COWHER GUYS. All have BETTER relationships with Tomlin than Cowher.

Kordell loves Cowher though. Screw Cowher he quit on us. BEFORE his wife was diagnosed so save that excuse.

BURGH86STEEL
10-15-2012, 10:27 PM
How does winning factor into the equation? The drafts simply haven't sucked with Tomlin as HC. Several draft picks under Tomlin became starters and contributors on this team. There have been some players that haven't panned out. Same can be said for players that were drafted when Cowher was the coach. Ultimately, remaining competitive and winning is the measure of how well teams are built. This team hasn't had a losing season with Tomlin has HC.

steelz09
10-15-2012, 10:29 PM
I could freakin' care less what type of love affair, buddy buddy relationship Tomlin has with his players.

I want the coach to put a good product on the field which requires drafting well and developing talent. Neither of which he has done well.

stopplayn
10-15-2012, 10:29 PM
Anthony Smith, Willie Reid, Willie Colon, Orien Harris, ♦ Bryant McFadden, Trai Essex, Fred Gibson , Drew Caylor and Eric Taylor?
Please dont make me go on.......

stopplayn
10-15-2012, 10:30 PM
I could freakin' care less what type of love affair, buddy buddy relationship Tomlin has with his players.

I want the coach to put a good product on the field which requires drafting well and developing talent. Neither of which he has done well.

Tomlin doesnt draft. Colbert does.

stopplayn
10-15-2012, 10:31 PM
If Tomlin made ALL great picks. Colbert would get the credit lol. Just like when Tomlin wins, the Credit goes to Cowher. But when Tomlin losses he gets the blame. How does that work?

BURGH86STEEL
10-15-2012, 10:32 PM
I could freakin' care less what type of love affair, buddy buddy relationship Tomlin has with his players.

I want the coach to put a good product on the field which requires drafting well and developing talent. Neither of which he has done well.

When was the last time the team had a losing season with Tomlin as HC?

stopplayn
10-15-2012, 10:32 PM
How does winning factor into the equation? The drafts simply haven't sucked with Tomlin as HC. Several draft picks under Tomlin became starters and contributors on this team. There have been some players that haven't panned out. Same can be said for players that were drafted when Cowher was the coach. Ultimately, remaining competitive and winning is the measure of how well teams are built. This team hasn't had a losing season with Tomlin has HC.

They arent interested in facts. They are interested in bashing a WINNING coach. They tell me "Why do you Bash Ben. He wins". True enough. Same goes for Tomlin doesnt it???? Guess not

stopplayn
10-15-2012, 10:34 PM
Anthony Smith, Willie Reid, Willie Colon, Orien Harris, ♦ Bryant McFadden, Trai Essex, Fred Gibson , Drew Caylor and Eric Taylor?
Please dont make me go on.......

Deion Figures. Andre Hastings, Chucki, Kendrell Bell, Chad Scott, Kordell, Charles Johnson, just a few BUMS off the top of my head (Excluding KB)

steelz09
10-15-2012, 10:35 PM
How does winning factor into the equation? The drafts simply haven't sucked with Tomlin as HC. Several draft picks under Tomlin became starters and contributors on this team. There have been some players that haven't panned out. Same can be said for players that were drafted when Cowher was the coach. Ultimately, remaining competitive and winning is the measure of how well teams are built. This team hasn't had a losing season with Tomlin has HC.

My point is that Tomlin hasn't been drafting and developing defensive talent. Anybody with half a brain can take over a team and be successful when you have a pre-built stud defense, a franchise QB and a WR that will be a HOFer. Tomlin was handed that on a golden platter.

stopplayn
10-15-2012, 10:39 PM
Then how come Cowher wasnt in 06? How come Cowher got to draft Ben? Wasnt Ben Roethlisberger a HIGH 1st round choice? Didnt Cowher have that "pre built stud defense, a franchise qb and a Hall of Fame WR? So how did he go 8-8 his last season? How did he go 6-10 in 03? Cowher must not have half a brain.

Hey you said it, not me.

BURGH86STEEL
10-15-2012, 10:50 PM
My point is that Tomlin hasn't been drafting and developing defensive talent. Anybody with half a brain can take over a team when and be successful when you have a pre-built stud defense, a franchise QB and a WR that will be a HOFer. Tomlin was handed that on a golden platter.
You can't fault Tomlin for the team he inherited. However, the team he inherited finished 6-10 in 2006.

They haven't drafted and developed defensive talent? Timmons and Woodley are pretty good players that were drafted and developed under Tomlin. William Gay was a solid contributor and IMO a good nickle CB. I am not sure how to evaluate Hood because I don't know what the coaches expect out of him. Hood did start for a defense that was number one in the league in 2011. Keenan Lewis is a starter. Worilds hasn't been able to remain healthy but he's shown flashes of developing into a good OLB. The jury is still out on some of the other defensive players that were recently drafted. They drafted and developed some pretty good offensive talent with Tomlin as HC.

I think this all goes back to fans and having unrealistic expectations. It seems that fans expect players like Polamalu to be drafted every season. When this team loses consistently with Tomlin as HC then there will be cause for concern. Until then, fans don't have much ground to stand on. At this point, Tomlin will need to walk on water for some fans to acknowledge his contributions to this team.

steelz09
10-15-2012, 10:55 PM
Cowher's defense wasn't pre-built. He built it.

The same goes for the QB, the same goes for the HOF WR.

steelz09
10-15-2012, 11:00 PM
You can't fault Tomlin for the team he inherited. However, the team he inherited finished 6-10 in 2006.

They haven't drafted and developed defensive talent? Timmons and Woodley are pretty good players that were drafted and developed under Tomlin. William Gay was a solid contributor and IMO a good nickle CB. I am not sure how to evaluate Hood because I don't know what the coaches expect out of him. Hood did start for a defense that was number one in the league in 2011. Keenan Lewis is a starter. Worilds hasn't been able to remain healthy but he's shown flashes of developing into a good OLB. The jury is still out on some of the other defensive players that were recently drafted. They drafted and developed some pretty good offensive talent with Tomlin as HC.

I think this all goes back to fans and having unrealistic expectations. It seems that fans expect players like Polamalu to be drafted every season. When this team loses consistently with Tomlin as HC then there will be cause for concern. Until then, fans don't have much ground to stand on. At this point, Tomlin will need to walk on water for some fans to acknowledge his contributions to this team.

No, I don't think any fans expect Polamalu-type players to get drafted every year.

I think it's concerning to fans that watch a lot of football (not just the Steelers) and see teams developing and fielding talent faster than the Steelers. One happens to be a biggest rival. The Ravens.

focosteeler
10-15-2012, 11:09 PM
I didn't realize that Tomlin was supposed to develop talent. I thought that was the position coaches job.

steelz09
10-15-2012, 11:17 PM
Clark / Hope - Cowher
Polamalu - Cowher
Ike - Cowher
Farrior > Timmons - Cowher
Foote - Cowher
Woodley > Haggans - Tomlin
A. Smith > Hood - Cowher
Keisel > Heyward (so far) - Cowher
Lewis - Tomlin (although it took years to replace McFadden, another Cowher guy)
Hampton / Hoke - Cowher guys
Harrison - Cowher

So basically, Tomlin has only drafted and developed 1 defensive player that is superior to Cowher's players. All other players are either Cowher's or Cowher's players were better.

Over time, this problem gets more noticeable as players are replaced by lesser players (i.e. Hood < Smith) or players that haven't been replaced start aging.

Our defense is a perfect example of this coming to light.

Chadman
10-15-2012, 11:32 PM
Hmm... Chadman thinks that the very essence of this argument will always divide a group into the pro & anti Tomlin's. If you are pro-Tomlin, you'll see he has introduced a number of 'ascending' players that haven't maxed out yet. If you are anti-Tomlin these same players have not, and will never likely meet the expectations we placed on them & are, therefore, busts.

Chadman is slightly torn on the issue. He inherited a good team. An established team. A team with few, if any, major holes. It was also a team heading into it's 'latter prime' years- in other words, peaking or peaked with their abilities, and closer to getting 'worse' than getting 'better'. Now this put Tomlin & Co in an awkward position- do you squeeze the orange dry & wring out as many years from this elite group as you can? Or do you start systematically replacing the pieces with younger guys?

As an example- let's look at the current state of the LT position. Currently Max Starks- a 'peaked' player holds the position. Mike Adams, an 'ascending' player is his back-up. Going into the season, the Steelers were a very good chance of competing for a SB. So now you face the situation- do you try & wring another year out of Max? Or do you throw Adams into the fire & harden him up for future years? You'll get better play from Max NOW, but this might hinder the development of Adams for LATER. What is more right?

How many times has Tomlin & Co been forced with this situation? Heyward, Hood, McLendon, Worilds, Cortez Allen, Curtis Brown.... sound familiar? Look at the guys in front of them over the years- established guys that still had something to offer... but declining. Would they be better players NOW if they had been starting for the last 3 years? Probably. But would the Steelers have been as good over the last 3 years if these guys had been playing?

Now, Chadman isn't saying that Tomlin's drafts & draft strategies have been stellar. The distinct lack of any Safety depth still rankles Chadman's chains. The time it's taken to take an OLD DL & change it into a YOUNGER group has, in Chadman's opinion, hindered the defence for the near future. But guys that constantly get bagged in here for being 'bad' draft choices, like Worilds for example, are not BAD draft picks- just young players that are held back by experienced older guys that don't deserve to lose their spot yet (Harrison).

A lot of other teams look like they develop young players faster- which might be true to some degree. But that is largely due to their young players stepping into a position where there simply isn't the quality of player in front of him on the Depth Chart that the Steelers have had for the last 5 years.

Face the facts people- the Steelers have had a VERY good team for the last 10 years. Cowher, Colbert & now Tomlin have been responsible for this. Things change through time, however, and right now we are seeing what is PROBABLY the tail end of the 'transition period' as guys like Aaron Smith, James Farrior, Casey Hampton, Brett Keisel, James Harrison & Troy Polamalu ride off into the sunset. Because their departures have all, roughly, come at the same time- we WILL suffer growing pains as young players that haven't been as exposed as players of the same age at poorer teams have been, are suddenly thrust into the spotlight.

There will never be a better time than now to change, schematically, the Steelers style of play- as the newer guys can be adapted into new schemes without the 'transition issues' that older players might face. Losing someone as important to the organisation as LeBeau has been would be made easier if done this offseason, before he starts trying to implement the newer guys into his systems.

We have been equal parts cursed & blessed by a great group of Steelers. We never wanted to see the end of them, but time is now dictating to us. We still hold the same expectations as we always have, but now we need to see how these new guys can become our newest crop of Steelers- with the growing pains we will experience thrown in for our entertainment!!

BURGH86STEEL
10-15-2012, 11:46 PM
Clark / Hope - Cowher
Polamalu - Cowher
Ike - Cowher
Farrior > Timmons - Cowher
Foote - Cowher
Woodley > Haggans - Tomlin
A. Smith > Hood - Cowher
Keisel > Heyward (so far) - Cowher
Lewis - Tomlin (although it took years to replace McFadden, another Cowher guy)
Hampton / Hoke - Cowher guys
Harrison - Cowher

So basically, Tomlin has only drafted and developed 1 defensive player that is superior to Cowher's players. All other players are either Cowher's or Cowher's players was better.

Over time, this problem gets more noticeable as players are replaced by lesser players (i.e. Hood < Smith) or players that haven't been replaced start aging.

Our defense is a perfect example of this coming to light.

Why do you continue to blame Tomlin for the players he inherited?

One can argue that Tomlin aided in getting Cowher's players to eventually perform better as a defensive unit. Take a look at the 2008 defensive unit.

steelz09
10-15-2012, 11:53 PM
Why do you continue to blame Tomlin for the players he inherited?

One can argue that Tomlin aided in getting Cowher's players to eventually perform better as a defensive unit. Take a look at the 2008 defensive unit.

I'm not blaming him for inheriting great defensive personnel. I'm blaming him for the complete lack of depth and talent that is becoming more and more apparent..

BURGH86STEEL
10-16-2012, 12:06 AM
I'm not blaming him for inheriting great defensive personnel. I'm blaming him for the complete lack of depth and talent that is becoming more and more apparent..

Colbert has the final say on draft picks, blame him.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 01:59 AM
Cowher's defense wasn't pre-built. He built it.

The same goes for the QB, the same goes for the HOF WR.

Cowhers BEST player of All time was developed by Noll. His name is Rod Woodson. Cowher didnt Want Ben. Cowher made Hines suffer with Kordell and all of the horrible qbs he had to play for.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 02:01 AM
Clark / Hope - Cowher
Polamalu - Cowher
Ike - Cowher
Farrior > Timmons - Cowher
Foote - Cowher
Woodley > Haggans - Tomlin
A. Smith > Hood - Cowher
Keisel > Heyward (so far) - Cowher
Lewis - Tomlin (although it took years to replace McFadden, another Cowher guy)
Hampton / Hoke - Cowher guys
Harrison - Cowher

So basically, Tomlin has only drafted and developed 1 defensive player that is superior to Cowher's players. All other players are either Cowher's or Cowher's players were better.

Over time, this problem gets more noticeable as players are replaced by lesser players (i.e. Hood < Smith) or players that haven't been replaced start aging.

Our defense is a perfect example of this coming to light.

So BLAME COWHER when we lose. Simple

Steelhere10
10-16-2012, 06:44 AM
Tomlin haters will always hate.
Pouncey, Wallace, Brown , Woodley. 4Pro Bowlers
Timmons a Pro bowl snub three years ago
Sanders could be a starter on most teams.
Seems like pretty good drafter to me.
I think Tomlin have a better eye for the offensive side of the ball being. A former wr.
The hate is getting real obvious..

steelblood
10-16-2012, 08:09 AM
While I won't disagree that we've had some poor drafts lately, this article has some poor premises. For example, to say that William Gay never reached his potential is a really poor argument. Gay was an important member of the secondary (both starter and as a nickel where he excelled) on some good teams for us. He was a fifth round pick who is still starting on a good defense. Sure, he is a below average NFL starting corner. But, what do you expect in the fifth round? And if Sanders could just stay healthy, he'd have been a very nice 3rd rounder.

BURGH86STEEL
10-16-2012, 08:16 AM
While I won't disagree that we've had some poor drafts lately, this article has some poor premises. For example, to say that William Gay never reached his potential is a really poor argument. Gay was an important member of the secondary (both starter and as a nickel where he excelled) on some good teams for us. He was a fifth round pick who is still starting on a good defense. Sure, he is a below average NFL starting corner. But, what do you expect in the fifth round? And if Sanders could just stay healthy, he'd have been a very nice 3rd rounder.

Worilds has shown flashes of being a good player. Remains to be seen if he can stay healthy.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 12:25 PM
Most dont like Tomlin 1st because he got the job over Wiz ( A guy who cant win his division. The weakest in the NFL). Why are we so enamored with Wiz? What did he do so great for us? 2nd. Because he beat out Grimm. What makes Grimm so great? Lets face it, we root for guys who look like us. I had to have a buddy bring this reality to me. I had "issues" and didnt realize it. My buddy pointed out that "you expect more from the black players and you give the white ones more of a pass". I refused to see this (He made this comment based on how critical I was of Kordell) Years went on before I realized that he was right. Its human nature, we all do it. Its the ones who cant recognize what they are doing or the ones who deny what they are doing that worry me. Bill Cowher lost so many home games in the AFCCG that he should have won. But he gets a pass becasue he LOOKS like us. Cowher was 12-9 IN THE PLAYOFFS!! IF that was Tomlin........... Well you know the rest

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 12:31 PM
Prime example. This board is proof of my post above. How many threads are ripping our non black players? WHO is our worst lineman? I see posts on Gilbert (I agree with the thread. hes always hurt). Threads on Colon (sure he holds but thats the equivalent of a sack. You accept the dumb sacks by the qb. But he is a hellofa run blocker). OUR WORST LINEMAN IS EASILY LEGURSKY. Does he get killed on this board? Hmmmm

Ghost
10-16-2012, 01:04 PM
Prime example. This board is proof of my post above. How many threads are ripping our non black players? WHO is our worst lineman? I see posts on Gilbert (I agree with the thread. hes always hurt). Threads on Colon (sure he holds but thats the equivalent of a sack. You accept the dumb sacks by the qb. But he is a hellofa run blocker). OUR WORST LINEMAN IS EASILY LEGURSKY. Does he get killed on this board? Hmmmm

Playing the race card is for the weak minded. I'm sure you'll give us Godwin's Law next.... :rolleyes:

Colon is a starter who'd being paid on a $29M contract. Gilbert was a 2nd round draft choice with the expecation of starting. Legursky is a back-up and I've seen countless post from people who have said they hope he never has to be more than that. NO ONE has ever claimed he's one of the best lineman.

feltdizz
10-16-2012, 01:21 PM
I'm not surprised some people hate Tomlin... most coaches, like QB's, are loved or hated.

However, it's clear that a few people will never like him.. they ripped his decision to go for 2 vs the Jags... nothing wrong with that, but ripping him 3 years later over it?

Tomlin gets zero credit because Cowher "built his team" but if Whiz or Grimm were hired I bet they would get a pass because they were on the team already. I find it crazy to ho hum getting back to 2 SB's with Tomlin because it was hard as hell to get to a SB with Cowher and if not for Ben's tackle we probably wouldn't have made it in 2005. On top of that... we struggled to beat a mediocre Seattle team IMO.

I loved Cowher but the expectations for Tomlin are unreal IMO.

steelz09
10-16-2012, 01:25 PM
Tomlin haters will always hate.
Pouncey, Wallace, Brown , Woodley. 4Pro Bowlers
Timmons a Pro bowl snub three years ago
Sanders could be a starter on most teams.
Seems like pretty good drafter to me.
I think Tomlin have a better eye for the offensive side of the ball being. A former wr.
The hate is getting real obvious..

People need to read entire posts... I specifically pointed to the development of defensive players.

Timmons had 1 really good year in which he split time with Foote. Hardly a great pick considering where he was drafted.

Woodley. That is a solid pick considering his productivity and where he was drafted.

steelz09
10-16-2012, 01:31 PM
Prime example. This board is proof of my post above. How many threads are ripping our non black players? WHO is our worst lineman? I see posts on Gilbert (I agree with the thread. hes always hurt). Threads on Colon (sure he holds but thats the equivalent of a sack. You accept the dumb sacks by the qb. But he is a hellofa run blocker). OUR WORST LINEMAN IS EASILY LEGURSKY. Does he get killed on this board? Hmmmm

Are you serious? Legursky is a backup for gods sake. He's a bad starting G but an adequate backup center. And for the record, how many white players are even on the roster? Obviously, the majority of the players are black.... for ALL teams. So if you criticize a player... the odds are in favor that he's black.

What a bizarre post.

steelz09
10-16-2012, 01:33 PM
So BLAME COWHER when we lose. Simple

Yea... let's blame Cower because his players can't be all-pros in their mid-30's.

steelz09
10-16-2012, 01:37 PM
I'm not surprised some people hate Tomlin... most coaches, like QB's, are loved or hated.

However, it's clear that a few people will never like him.. they ripped his decision to go for 2 vs the Jags... nothing wrong with that, but ripping him 3 years later over it?

Tomlin gets zero credit because Cowher "built his team" but if Whiz or Grimm were hired I bet they would get a pass because they were on the team already. I find it crazy to ho hum getting back to 2 SB's with Tomlin because it was hard as hell to get to a SB with Cowher and if not for Ben's tackle we probably wouldn't have made it in 2005. On top of that... we struggled to beat a mediocre Seattle team IMO.

I loved Cowher but the expectations for Tomlin are unreal IMO.

That's an unfair generalization. I like certain things Tomlin has done. I wasn't in favor of Grimm and I wasn't quit sure about Whiz. I was a harsh critic of Arians and I'm harsh on Tomlin for certain things but I give him credit for others. For example, the Steelers have done well developing skill positions on offense. They haven't done so on defense.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 01:47 PM
Playing the race card is for the weak minded. I'm sure you'll give us Godwin's Law next.... :rolleyes:

Colon is a starter who'd being paid on a $29M contract. Gilbert was a 2nd round draft choice with the expecation of starting. Legursky is a back-up and I've seen countless post from people who have said they hope he never has to be more than that. NO ONE has ever claimed he's one of the best lineman.

The Race card couldnt be played if it wasnt in the deck. Fact still remains that he should be getting ripped but he gets a pass. Why? Redman is a backup OFF THE PRACTICE SQUAD. I see him getting ripped. What is your next excuse sir?

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 01:50 PM
Yea... let's blame Cower because his players can't be all-pros in their mid-30's.

Then why do you credit him when they do play like All Pros in their mid 30's?

steelz09
10-16-2012, 02:04 PM
The Race card couldnt be played if it wasnt in the deck. Fact still remains that he should be getting ripped but he gets a pass. Why? Redman is a backup OFF THE PRACTICE SQUAD. I see him getting ripped. What is your next excuse sir?

An excuse for what? I don't know why I'm even spending time writing a response to this post.

I don't know what you're talking about in regards tos Redman goes... I never ripped him.

I was a little surprised and disappointing how he performed as a full time starter but I've been a supporter of Redman.

steelz09
10-16-2012, 02:05 PM
Then why do you credit him when they do play like All Pros in their mid 30's?

Maybe I'm missing something. They aren't playing like all-pros. I thought that has been well established.

feltdizz
10-16-2012, 02:09 PM
The Race card couldnt be played if it wasnt in the deck. Fact still remains that he should be getting ripped but he gets a pass. Why? Redman is a backup OFF THE PRACTICE SQUAD. I see him getting ripped. What is your next excuse sir?

Mahan was ripped to shreds on here...

there aren't a lot of white players to rip to begin with...

Ghost
10-16-2012, 02:23 PM
The Race card couldnt be played if it wasnt in the deck. Fact still remains that he should be getting ripped but he gets a pass. Why? Redman is a backup OFF THE PRACTICE SQUAD. I see him getting ripped. What is your next excuse sir?

Going into the Titans game, Colon led the league in penalites for offensive lineman - with a bye week. When Legursky is called for 4 holding calls in a game (Colon in Philly) and people come on here and praise him, then you might have something. Otherwise you're blowing smoke. Plenty of players, black and white get bashed for poor play.

lloydroid
10-16-2012, 03:24 PM
Ben Roethlilsberger, Troy Polamalu, James Harrison and Heath Miller. ALL COWHER GUYS. All have BETTER relationships with Tomlin than Cowher.

Kordell loves Cowher though. Screw Cowher he quit on us. BEFORE his wife was diagnosed so save that excuse.

He kept his job KNOWING he was leaving, and he coached like a man who knew he was leaving = quitting while still taking a pay check. That is lame.

lloydroid
10-16-2012, 03:43 PM
Prime example. This board is proof of my post above. How many threads are ripping our non black players? WHO is our worst lineman? I see posts on Gilbert (I agree with the thread. hes always hurt). Threads on Colon (sure he holds but thats the equivalent of a sack. You accept the dumb sacks by the qb. But he is a hellofa run blocker). OUR WORST LINEMAN IS EASILY LEGURSKY. Does he get killed on this board? Hmmmm

Was Legs even drafted? He was never added to this team as a likely starter. Anything he contributes is just icing on the cake; the fact that he can even offer any play that is any where near NFL Caliber is a huge plus. Colon got a huge contract, and then quickly got hurt two years in a row, and now offers us some of the very worst OG play in the entire league (I believe he has more flags than any OG in the NFL.) Give me a break. Many predicted pro bowl level play from Colon playing OG....ummm, hasn't turned out that way, has it?

lloydroid
10-16-2012, 03:52 PM
Cowher's defense wasn't pre-built. He built it.

The same goes for the QB, the same goes for the HOF WR.

Ummmm, he inherited Rod Woodson, Kirkland, Lake, Hardy Nickerson, Lloyd, Steed, Darren Perry, DJ Johnson, Jerry O - not a bad base of players, for sure.

lloydroid
10-16-2012, 04:05 PM
I find it interesting that the team NEVER admits to who is pulling the trigger in the draft. No accountability. And look at this particularly horrid draft. The entire thing stinks to high heaven. Other than Mendy (who I believe under-achieved) the entire thing was a total waste of time. Sweed? POS. Bruce Davis? Total garbage at a time when we already were screaming for O linemen, rightly so. Hills? I called him a bust 10 minutes after they drafted him; his rep was he was soft and weak - and he ended up being both. Dixon, Humpal, Mundy? All bums. What a horrible draft.


1 23 Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois
2 53 Limas Sweed WR Texas
3 88 Bruce Davis LB UCLA
4 130 Tony Hills T Texas
5 156 Dennis Dixon QB Oregon
6 188 Mike Humpal OLB Iowa
6 194 Ryan Mundy FS West Virginia

Oviedo
10-16-2012, 04:05 PM
Ummmm, he inherited Rod Woodson, Kirkland, Lake, Hardy Nickerson, Lloyd, Steed, Darren Perry, DJ Johnson, Jerry O - not a bad base of players, for sure.


Cowher's first trip to the Super Bowl was with Noll's players. Noll's players won early for Cowher. In the late 90s when Noll's players were gone we saw how good Cowher was:

1998 7-9
1999 6-10
2000 9-7

When Tomlin puts together three years like that then start to tell me how bad he is compared to Cowher. It's not even a contest so far and Tomlin is winning. Tomlin's doing it without being an egotistical clown who spends half the game mugging it up hoping to get the camera to focus on him.

phillyesq
10-16-2012, 04:21 PM
I find it interesting that the team NEVER admits to who is pulling the trigger in the draft. No accountability. And look at this particularly horrid draft. The entire thing stinks to high heaven. Other than Mendy (who I believe under-achieved) the entire thing was a total waste of time. Sweed? POS. Bruce Davis? Total garbage at a time when we already were screaming for O linemen, rightly so. Hills? I called him a bust 10 minutes after they drafted him; his rep was he was soft and weak - and he ended up being both. Dixon, Humpal, Mundy? All bums. What a horrible draft.

The person pulling the trigger in the draft is accountable to the owner, not to the fans, and I'm sure the owner knows who is pulling the trigger.

That draft didn't work out well, but I'm sure you will remember, at the time, that people were thrilled about Mendy and Sweed. I would have preferred Cliff Avril to Davis in the third (and Avril was a guy the Steelers worked out) but unfortunately that was a missed pick.

Hills was a boom or bust pick - he was coming off an injury and was a big question mark, but he had upside. Sometimes you need to take a risk.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 04:42 PM
Maybe I'm missing something. They aren't playing like all-pros. I thought that has been well established.

They have been to two Super Bowls since Cowher. Havent been playing like All Pros? Based on what FIVE GAMES? Ok

lloydroid
10-16-2012, 04:42 PM
Cowher's first trip to the Super Bowl was with Noll's players. Noll's players won early for Cowher. In the late 90s when Noll's players were gone we saw how good Cowher was:

1998 7-9
1999 6-10
2000 9-7

When Tomlin puts together three years like that then start to tell me how bad he is compared to Cowher. It's not even a contest so far and Tomlin is winning. Tomlin's doing it without being an egotistical clown who spends half the game mugging it up hoping to get the camera to focus on him.

In the end, I hated Cowher. He is so self-centered and arrogant. He may ham it up for the CBS cameras, but he was known as an rear end in Pgh. Staff were told to not speak to him unless he spoke to them first. Really? That is a real jerk. And he was vastly overrated. A legit, quality coach would have won more Super Bowls with the teams he had. He was flat out lucky to win the one he did, where his team almost lost to one of the weakest teams in the history of the Super Bowl. He was also the primary reason we had to suffer with Kordell for as long as we did. He was too arrogant to admit he made a mistake with him.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 04:44 PM
Going into the Titans game, Colon led the league in penalites for offensive lineman - with a bye week. When Legursky is called for 4 holding calls in a game (Colon in Philly) and people come on here and praise him, then you might have something. Otherwise you're blowing smoke. Plenty of players, black and white get bashed for poor play.

This is true and I have never denied this. My point is that its HUMAN NATURE to give those a pass who look like you.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 04:45 PM
He kept his job KNOWING he was leaving, and he coached like a man who knew he was leaving = quitting while still taking a pay check. That is lame.

I respect you for coming on here and posting the TRUTH

hawaiiansteel
10-16-2012, 04:49 PM
This is true and I have never denied this. My point is that its HUMAN NATURE to give those a pass who look like you.

I don't trust anyone who looks like me for one minute...:D

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 04:54 PM
Was Legs even drafted? He was never added to this team as a likely starter. Anything he contributes is just icing on the cake; the fact that he can even offer any play that is any where near NFL Caliber is a huge plus. Colon got a huge contract, and then quickly got hurt two years in a row, and now offers us some of the very worst OG play in the entire league (I believe he has more flags than any OG in the NFL.) Give me a break. Many predicted pro bowl level play from Colon playing OG....ummm, hasn't turned out that way, has it?

Sorry, with ME, the standard is not raised based on PAY. We have a quarterback that is not earning the contract he gets. But I dont expect more of him because he is the highest paid. I expect more of him because he is a starter on the team. I hold ALL starters to the same standard. So because Legursky isnt a high draft pick or a person we have "invested" in then the standard is lower? If thats the case then WHY isnt the same standard applied to Redman? Willie Parker? Mike Wallace? Ike Taylor? All low picks or FA's that we didnt count on being an intricate part of our team BUT THEY ARE/WERE.

Ben's STYLE contributes to Colons holding calls. Ben admits the line has to adjust to his style. Why cant you? Try blocking for someone thats running from side to side and you dont know where he is but your opponent does. The natural reaction is to reach out and grab. Hence holding. Thats a small part of the reason he gets holding calls. What about the big contract that Alan Faneca got? How did he perform? The two tackles from Jaguars threw him around like a rag doll (Henderson and the other slilps my mind). Faneca also acted as a cancer his last season with us just because he didnt get the money he wanted. The guy is regarded as a hero in the burgh. Why is all forgiven?

eniparadoxgma
10-16-2012, 06:24 PM
This is true and I have never denied this. My point is that its HUMAN NATURE to give those a pass who look like you.

I'm sure everyone appreciates your lesson in psychology. It's also HUMAN NATURE to not have the courage for an attack on one's own convictions because they are our own ;).

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 06:35 PM
I'm just being honest if other dont choose to do so then thats their choice. After all the KKK wore hoods for a reason. They didnt want anyone to know. Perspective

virgilbosetti
10-16-2012, 06:44 PM
Wow. All these bash this guy, praise that guy stuff. Cowher wasnt perfect but how can some talk like he's a complete joke? He's a future HOF coach. He orchestrated years and years of dominant Steeler football that we all came to know and love. This happened, by the way, after 7/8 really bad years with Noll. Cowher's systems and decisions won right away....but some of you say don't give him credit....they were Noll's players. Really???

Bash him all you want but if you are going to blame him for EVERY organizational fault that you can think of during his tenure, then he should get huge credit for every single thing that went great. Neither are very logical.....can't have it both ways.

Not trying to offend anyone here, nor am I trying to change anyone's opinions to that of my own. Just my opinion.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 07:46 PM
Cowher is not a Hall of Fame coach. Sorry

SDSteel1
10-16-2012, 07:52 PM
I'm just being honest if other dont choose to do so then thats their choice. After all the KKK wore hoods for a reason. They didnt want anyone to know. Perspective

Who knew Al Sharpton was a Steeler fan?:0

You don't have a case Rev. If it were politics I would give you a pass, but Steeler fans love their players no matter what their color, but they will bash anyone on a dime for a missed tackle or a holding call. Just because you root for your own color and you take offense when Steeler fans bash the coach or player that is the same color as you, just shows that maybe you are the racist who sees colors instead of numbers. Just sayin....

virgilbosetti
10-16-2012, 07:52 PM
We finally agree. No he isn't. That is why I clearly said "future" HOF coach.

hawaiiansteel
10-16-2012, 07:58 PM
Cowher is not a Hall of Fame coach. Sorry

I always liked The Chin, but he probably needed to win more than one Super Bowl in 15 seasons to be a Hall of Fame coach.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 08:10 PM
Who knew Al Sharpton was a Steeler fan?:0

You don't have a case Rev. If it were politics I would give you a pass, but Steeler fans love their players no matter what their color, but they will bash anyone on a dime for a missed tackle or a holding call. Just because you root for your own color and you take offense when Steeler fans bash the coach or player that is the same color as you, just shows that maybe you are the racist who sees colors instead of numbers. Just sayin....

The typical guy with "issues" always assums that I am black, when I have clearly stated that my OWN issues had to be brought to my attention by a buddy. Sorry I'm no Sharpton. I prefer David Duke, Mitt Romney, George W. those types. I just dont hide behind the bs. I am white so I am privvy to all of the racial names directed at Tomlin. IF you dont think that his Color is an issue with some people then that is your opinion. I know different. Many people at Steeler games HATED Bruce Arians but NOT ONCE have I ever heard him called an epithet. Tomlin doesnt get that benefit. Lastly, I and not a Tomlin fan. I just tell the truth as I see it. Actually, wanted us to hire Brian Billick but he wasnt available.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 08:11 PM
We finally agree. No he isn't. That is why I clearly said "future" HOF coach.

What is he getting in on? ONE Super Bowl? Not likely

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 08:12 PM
I always liked The Chin, but he probably needed to win more than one Super Bowl in 15 seasons to be a Hall of Fame coach.

Agreed. And all of the Home Field AFCCG's he lost wont help either

Steelhere10
10-16-2012, 08:20 PM
Ummmm, he inherited Rod Woodson, Kirkland, Lake, Hardy Nickerson, Lloyd, Steed, Darren Perry, DJ Johnson, Jerry O - not a bad base of players, for sure.Some of these posters don't even follow the Steelers. Probably joined the wagon after a couple of SB titles!

Steelhere10
10-16-2012, 08:26 PM
And to be honest Cowerd had more Pro Bowlers to start his tenure than Tomlin. And his strategy to play not to lose, is one reason we have to sit here as fans and listen to how Bellicheat was such a genius....

virgilbosetti
10-16-2012, 08:28 PM
Come on. In two SB's, 8 or 9 divisons, 10 playoffs, at least one AP coach of the year. He probably won't get in this term, but he's going. Some said he would have been in before XL. He's going.

SDSteel1
10-16-2012, 08:56 PM
The typical guy with "issues" always assums that I am black, when I have clearly stated that my OWN issues had to be brought to my attention by a buddy. Sorry I'm no Sharpton. I prefer David Duke, Mitt Romney, George W. those types. I just dont hide behind the bs. I am white so I am privvy to all of the racial names directed at Tomlin. IF you dont think that his Color is an issue with some people then that is your opinion. I know different. Many people at Steeler games HATED Bruce Arians but NOT ONCE have I ever heard him called an epithet. Tomlin doesnt get that benefit. Lastly, I and not a Tomlin fan. I just tell the truth as I see it. Actually, wanted us to hire Brian Billick but he wasnt available.

I don't have issues, and I don't care if you are white or black, or purple, you are still race baiting, and just because you sit around people who use racial epithets it doesn't make Steeler fans who are critical of certain players racist. In my opinion you are still a racist even if you are white.

stopplayn
10-16-2012, 09:30 PM
Me a racist? I have ADMITTED that I had issues as they were brought to my attention. I acknowledged them (I didnt know honestly. Or didnt realize). Those people I sit around are STEELER FANS. I'm a season ticket holder.

BigRob
10-16-2012, 10:13 PM
Some have been saying this for years, but have been called idiots by 'The real fans'. It's clear that Cowher was superior at choosing players compared to Tomlin. Colbert is the common denominator.

i feel the 3-4 is tougher to fill out compared to the 4-3. Back 10 years ago when we drafted a majority of our Superbowl winning vets, not near as many teams ran the 3-4 so we had more of a selection in the later rounds.

I haven't had a good internet connection for a day or so, but part I of this article was comparing Cowhers first five years of drafting to Tomlins. Cowher actually fared much worse his first five years. That gives me hope that Tomlin can improve his evaluations.

BigRob
10-16-2012, 10:29 PM
Let's not get sidetracked too much. This post was more about how the Raven's have been out drafting us relative to who we picked as illustrated by this fantastic chart:

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1247311/Steelers_20ranking_20compared_20to_20League_JPG_me dium.jpg (http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1247311/Steelers_20ranking_20compared_20to_20League_JPG.jp g)
via dl.dropbox.com (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65639065/Comparing%20Draft%20Picks/Steelers%20ranking%20compared%20to%20League.JPG)


We have a lot of ground to make up talent wise. We are a very old team defensive wise and it needs to be fixed. Gonna have to rip off the band-aid.

SDSteel1
10-17-2012, 12:18 AM
Let's not get sidetracked too much. This post was more about how the Raven's have been out drafting us relative to who we picked as illustrated by this fantastic chart:

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1247311/Steelers_20ranking_20compared_20to_20League_JPG_me dium.jpg (http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1247311/Steelers_20ranking_20compared_20to_20League_JPG.jp g)
via dl.dropbox.com (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/65639065/Comparing%20Draft%20Picks/Steelers%20ranking%20compared%20to%20League.JPG)


We have a lot of ground to make up talent wise. We are a very old team defensive wise and it needs to be fixed. Gonna have to rip off the band-aid.

I think the whole premise of this post is misleading when the word "reality" is used, but the data in the graph can't be substantiated. Who knows whether Tory Smith would have outshined Mike Wallace and Anthony Brown if we drafted him? How does anyone know what Cam Heyward would have done on the Patriots D line, and if he would have started? When you put subjective information into an equation and you get numbers, more than likely you just came up with a way to start an argument based on assumptions. That is not reality.

BigRob
10-17-2012, 01:39 AM
I think the whole premise of this post is misleading when the word "reality" is used, but the data in the graph can't be substantiated. Who knows whether Tory Smith would have outshined Mike Wallace and Anthony Brown if we drafted him? How does anyone know what Cam Heyward would have done on the Patriots D line, and if he would have started? When you put subjective information into an equation and you get numbers, more than likely you just came up with a way to start an argument based on assumptions. That is not reality.

Please, how would you ever judge drafts or drafted players then? You would never be able to based on what you are saying. You will never know how those players would have done in our system or ours in their, that doesn't diminish the REALITY of how well players are playing that were drafted by other teams. Geesh.

SDSteel1
10-17-2012, 08:41 AM
You judge drafts on win - loss records, playoff apprearances, Super Bowls, Pro Bowls. Then once a player has done his full body of work and is out of the league, or at least out of your teams system you can rate the pick. Being that the guy who wrote the article doesn't want to wait until all of the data is in, but feels like bashing or coach and our front office, so he made a grading scale based on assumptions. How about basing it on results? Win Loss records, Super Bowls/Super Bowl appearances etc. That is how you judge drafts. Ask the people who judge the Steelers drafts of the 70's.

feltdizz
10-17-2012, 09:00 AM
You judge drafts on win - loss records, playoff apprearances, Super Bowls, Pro Bowls. Then once a player has done his full body of work and is out of the league, or at least out of your teams system you can rate the pick. Being that the guy who wrote the article doesn't want to wait until all of the data is in, but feels like bashing or coach and our front office, so he made a grading scale based on assumptions. How about basing it on results? Win Loss records, Super Bowls/Super Bowl appearances etc. That is how you judge drafts. Ask the people who judge the Steelers drafts of the 70's.

ehhh... I think it's more than that. The Steelers went from worst to first with their drafts in the early 70's so it's obvious the draft worked.

With key vets leaving we are beginning to see how good/bad our recent drafts have been...

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
10-17-2012, 10:27 AM
Comparing drafts is a fun exercise for discussion, but really difficult to end up with fact. Every team, every situation is different. Some teams have many openings available, some have very few and at different positions. Every team runs a different scheme and surrounds draft picks with different players. Football is the ultimate team game and success depends on all 11 offensive players, all 11 defensive players, and those who play on ST. That is not to say that it can't make for lively debate, but the result will never realistically be fact.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
10-17-2012, 10:45 AM
You can't really compare Cowher and Tomlin by saying that every draft until 2006 was a Cowher draft, and everything thereafter was a Tomlin draft.

Between 1999 and 2006, Cowher was the most powerful man in the organization not named Rooney. Even though Colbert may have appeared above him on an organizational flow chart, it was Cowher who pushed out his predecessor and then hand picked Colbert. Cowher had the final say on drafting players, while Rooney held the veto hammer. The most notable rumor being the 2004 draft when Cowher wanted another player (forget who but I'm thinking Andrews the OL) and Rooney stepped in and demanded Ben.

When Tomlin was hired, his status was obviously below Colbert. In 2007, he was new to the organization. He had a defensive coaching background, yet the team continues to run a D that he has no experience with. The first two picks were Timmons and Woodley. Can anybody really believe that these were Tomlin picks? I would think that DL had more input than Tomlin, and was still just a consultant when it came to the selections. The first three picks the following year were a RB, a WR, and a DL move to 3-4 OLB project.

I would think that over the years Tomlin's influence has increased, but I still doubt that he holds nearly as much sway as the GM. This is the more traditional structure for a team that is not coached by someone like Cowher/Parcells etc.

And in case anyone would like to call me a Tomlin supporter or apologist, please feel free to check my history. I don't think that I've said much over the years about Coach T, and I don't think that it has been overly positive. Just my view of reality.

hawaiiansteel
10-21-2012, 03:47 PM
Steelers insider: Steelersí inconsistency linked to draft duds

By Alan Robinson
Published: Sunday, October 21, 2012

http://triblive.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=U2Mkl 0uEBNQiwHFFeQDIRM$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtov607$7WnpKI CoIxEkBOjWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4 uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_C ryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg

Steelers Ricardo Colclough against the Bengals at Paul Brown Stadium Oct. 2007.

There are 186 days until the NFL Draft. Thatís six months to watch college games, read draft reports, monitor the NFL Combine and figure out what name Roger Goodell should announce as the Steelersí first-round pick.

If the first 13 drafts conducted by Steelers general manager Kevin Colbert are any indicator, itís a day that could alter team history ó one way or another.

By the way, that first Colbert draft occurred 4,572 days ago ó about one day for every projected yard that 2004 first-round pick Ben Roethlisberger might throw for this season.

That 2004 draft perfectly illustrates the ups and downs of drafting, an art form at which Colbert often excels.

The Roethlisberger pick was clearly the gem of his picks, but the next one ó second-rounder Ricardo Colclough ó was arguably his worst.

While Colbert (and coaches Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin, who have a say in the matter) enjoyed a string of first-round successes in Roethlisberger, Maurkice Pouncey, Troy Polamalu and Heath Miller, he has struck out, too. Thatís no different than every other NFL general manager.

The ups and downs of this seasonís unpredictable Steelers are reflected in those up-and-down drafts. One year, the picks are Pouncey, Emmanuel Sanders and Antonio Brown; another year, they are Limas Sweed, Bruce Davis and Tony Hills.

So, letís do what Colbert canít: Turn back the clock, rewrite history and redraft. This isnít to suggest what Colbert should have done, but to look back at what he could have done.

2004: Ricardo Colclough, second round, No. 38 overall.

Maybe the Steelers should have stopped after taking Big Ben, but they traded with the Colts to move up and get a player Cowher loved. The first red flag should have been his college (tiny Tusculum); it proved to be a case of little school, big bust. The Colts used the Steelersí pick to grab future Defensive Player of the Year Bob Sanders.

2005: Fred Gibson, fourth round, No. 131.

Gibson, a wide receiver, got into trouble at Georgia for selling his SEC Championship ring. But that was nothing like his bill of goods someone sold the Steelers. Gibson was cut at the end of training camp and later landed in the NBA D-League. They could have had Josh Cribbs or defensive tackle Chris Canty, who went to the Cowboys on the very next pick.

2006: Anthony Smith, third round, No. 83; Willie Reid, third round, No. 95.

Perhaps the worst single round in Steelers draft history. Smith was best known for ill-advisedly guaranteeing a win over the unbeaten Patriots; Tom Brady torched him then taunted him. Reid was more of a punt returner than a receiver, and he did neither well in a seven-game Steelers career. The Steelers could have had receiver Brandon Marshall and defensive end Elvis Dumervil.

2008: Limas Sweed, second round, No. 53; Bruce Davis, third round, No. 88.

They badly needed a receiver. Instead they got, well, a bad receiver in Sweed. Two picks later, Ray Rice went to Baltimore. And even Adam Dunn hasnít struck out like the Steelers did with the nonathletic Davis, a linebacker; the Lions grabbed sack machine Cliff Avril four picks later.

2010: Jason Worilds, second round, No. 52.

Worilds leads the Steelers with three sacks, and he isnít close to being a certifiable disappointment. But there was considerable debate whether the Steelers should have grabbed Penn State linebacker Sean Lee of Upper St. Clair. Lee is now one of the NFLís leading tacklers.

http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/2793187-85/steelers-round-draft-colbert-pick-receiver-nfl-picks-2004-davis#ixzz29xNZp21k

Steel Life
10-22-2012, 12:52 AM
The premise of the article on which the thread is based is flawed because it doesn't take into account team's scheme or the situation they were drafted into. Drafting Heyward is a bad example based on his relative small sample size, but most pundits believed it was an excellent pick based on the talent & production he showed - which in most years would've made him a top-15 pick. Using the players the author uses as basis for his contention one would see that they are not either players at a position of need at the time (WR Smith, RB Murray) or a fit for the type of defense they run (4-3 DT Casey, 4-3 DE Sheard, 4-3 LB Ayers) - but that doesn't deter the author from making the point he's determined to. But if this argument is being made for Tomlin's drafts, I'm sure it could be shown how often the Cowher drafts also missed on star-level or better players when compared to other teams (Alonzo Jackson, Ricardo Colclough, Jamaine Stephens anyone?)- this dynamic (or better yet - crap-shoot) is hardly exclusive to the Steelers & particularly Tomlin.

What cannot be overlooked in this comparison, but frequently is, are 3 points - the first is that Colbert (who is responsible for the scouting department & the draft as well) is the person most responsible for the current state of the team & is the common denominator between the two recent coaches. Cowher & Colbert had an extremely close working relationship (so much so that Cowher has said that if he came back into coaching he wanted to have Colbert as his GM...which is one reason I'm sure that the Steelers thought to wrap him up by his recent promotion). But that said, while Tomlin hasn't had the number years working with him that Cowher did, but it has already produced as many SB appearances & wins as Cowher & Colbert had together. The thing that is interesting is what Colbert helped each man build during their tenure - Cowher, a dominating defense (albeit with help from Tom Donohoe) & Tomlin, an explosive offense. Now the quality of the player each coach inherited or drafted can be argued, but Cowher enjoyed a decided advantage in FA as Colbert (& Donohoe) had signed numerous quality FAs, traded for Bettis & lucked into the sudden emergence of James Harrison & Willie Parker - this contrasts that during Tomlin's time, Colbert has hardly dipped into the FA pool. What can be laid at Cowher's feet is the release of players like Mike Vrabel, Carlos Emmons & John Kuhn, all of whom were solid contibutors for the SB teams they went to...at this time no player that Tomlin has released on has come back to haunt him. I think what is clear is that Tomlin (whose HC stint in Pittsburgh is still in it's early stage) does not have at present the kind of control, influence or working relationship with Colbert that Cowher did.

The second common denominator between the two coaches...Dick LeBeau. It's obvious that the team drafts players that fit into the mold of LeBeau's 3-4 defense but it's also true that now so does most of the NFL & as a result conversely, most of the league knows how to attack the 3-4 as well. The issue here is LeBeau's length of reign as the team's DC as it is being argued daily whether at his age he has become too predictable, or if the league has figured him out or passed him by (no pun intended). While LeBeau's defense continues to rank exceptionally year after year, it is also true that the team has had trouble against "elite" offenses & getting off the field on 3rd-down - which is an indictment of of both scheme & execution under both coaches, but Tomlin has had the disadvantage of the defense getting a little too old on him, which has become the achilles heel of the team for the past two seasons. The reality of it is that its a little of all those things, but the interesting thing will be when LeBeau calls it quits if Tomlin (who had no say in keeping LeBeau when he was hired) & his seemingly anointed DC successor (Butler) will continue the LeBeau system he's been part of for years, or if Tomlin - who made his name as a 4-3 DC - will assert his own defensive philosophies.

Lastly, the third point is perhaps the most ignored...the Steelers, like most successful franchises, eventually fall victim to their own success. Not only to their usual late drafting position which keeps them from being in position to draft the perceived better talent; but also due to the great players that have made the team what it is getting older; & the most insidious is believing their press clippings...that their methodology or schemes doesn't need tweaking. Underlining that, the team has ventured into FA less & even then the recent signings have been less than stellar. We see signs of these symptoms with the quality of the current players & back-ups (though there are some good players in position), the defense struggling & surrendering leads late in the game, & the apparent refusal to bring in FA talent to plug holes on the team. It can be said that some of this process has already started as Arians was let go & for years it was said that not enough attention was paid to drafting talent for offensive & defensive lines, but Colbert has made this priority in recent years even if the results are inconclusive still. What is to be seen is if Colbert & the front office can help Tomlin build a complete team when the departure of Lebeau & his remaining stalwarts invariably comes.

But all that said - these are the Steelers & they have forged their winning tradition by staying the course & not over-reacting...which is why they settled on Tomlin as their coach, he embodies that philosophy. The question will be how they & Tomlin handle things going forward...would they consider changing defensive schemes, will they trade in the draft to get that difference making player, will they go after FAs that could make difference or even possibly shaking up the front office to get a new perspective on all these concerns (paging Omar Kahn...)? We will have to see...but one thing that is clear, it is Colbert who is the architect of both the past & future Steelers & how he handles these issues will determine if Pittsburgh remains an upper echelon team.