Tomlin wanted Vick in Pgh

[lloydroid]

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/118358-ed-tomlin-wanted-to-sign-vick-with-steelers

Seriously? Seriously? I now have to question Tomlin's ability to judge character. He wanted Vick in Pgh. WTF? Nice. Tomlin wanted a dog-torturing and murdering felon on the Steelers' roster. Thank God the Rooneys were dead set against it. I really have to question Tomlin's character now. I've always been a big MT fan; but starting with last year's worst job of coaching in play off history, this season so far, and now finding out he wanted Vick on this team....I am starting to 2nd guess how much I support him.

[SidSmythe]

I was more skeptical when he endorsed Barack Obama to tell you the truth!!

[Shoe]

At the risk of sounding racist, he's taking the team down a decidedly pro-black QB path--one which historically isn't very successful. Our saving grace happens to be that we already had a franchise (white) QB on the roster at the time. Batch, Leftwich, Dennis Dixon, Troy Smith, the big kid we had this year... No matter what you want to say, that isn't a coincidence.

[SidSmythe]

At the risk of sounding racist, he's taking the team down a decidedly pro-black QB path--one which historically isn't very successful. Our saving grace happens to be that we already had a franchise (white) QB on the roster at the time. Batch, Leftwich, Dennis Dixon, Troy Smith, the big kid we had this year... No matter what you want to say, that isn't a coincidence.

While I don't doubt the possibility of this....we were going down that road with Cowher often too.
Batch, Tee Martin (drafted ahead of Tom Brady), Kordell, etc.
Tomlin did bring in that kid from Washington St. who Jaworski said was the next Tom Brady (he was white).

Off Topic: Do you ever notice whenever people make player comparisions they're always the same race.

I'm sure Peyton Hillis was compared to Mike Alstott coming out of college.

[lloydroid]

I was more skeptical when he endorsed Barack Obama to tell you the truth!!

Not to turn this into a political rant, but, given our two choices then, and now, you have no decent choice either way. We are never given an option worth a gad damn sh-t when it comes down to it. I mean, McCain? Romney? Barry? All suck.

[steeler_fan_in_t.o.]

At the risk of sounding racist, he's taking the team down a decidedly pro-black QB path--one which historically isn't very successful. Our saving grace happens to be that we already had a franchise (white) QB on the roster at the time. Batch, Leftwich, Dennis Dixon, Troy Smith, the big kid we had this year... No matter what you want to say, that isn't a coincidence.

Tomlin has been the coach since the 2008 season.

Charlie Batch joined the team in 2002

Byron Leftwich joined the team in Tomlin's first year of 2008, however, I highly doubt that the rookie coach had much say in personnel that first year.

That being said, while Lefty's skin color is black, he is not someone who you would refer to as a "black QB". His style is lily white. :D

[squidkid]

how come that doesnt surprise me?

[Slapstick]

While Tomlin considered the signing of Vick, it was ultimately Tomlin who decided against it...


A week before the Steelers opened training camp in 2009, a lawsuit filed against Roethlisberger in Lake Tahoe, Nev., alleging he raped a woman surfaced. Tomlin came to the believe that signing Vick at such a fragile time for his two-time Super Bowl quarterback was a bad idea.
“Given some of the things that my quarterback was going through, I didn't think it was the appropriate time to add another quarterback to the mix," Tomlin told NBC-TV’s Bob Costas that year. "He's going through somewhat of a trying time with the civil allegation, a case against him. I didn't want to do anything that was less than supportive to Ben."


If Vick had been on the roster, would Ben even be a Steeler given what happened in 2010 in Milledgeville?

Go ahead and question Tomlin's judgment at that time, but don't forget to question Ben Roethlisberger's judgment at that time as well, which was infinitely worse...

[lloydroid]

At the risk of sounding racist, he's taking the team down a decidedly pro-black QB path--one which historically isn't very successful. Our saving grace happens to be that we already had a franchise (white) QB on the roster at the time. Batch, Leftwich, Dennis Dixon, Troy Smith, the big kid we had this year... No matter what you want to say, that isn't a coincidence.

Yea, some will accuse you of sounding racist, but I think it deserves discussion. To a degree it is nature (not just human nature) for races (i.e. breeds) to want to surround themselves with like creatures. It really is natural, so I don't want to completely point the dirty end of the stick at that mindset. Tell me, if you're in a frat and you have an Italian lineage, that when an Italian kid pledges that you don't kind of extra support him, all things being equal? I don't hate on MT for some of that. However, that being said, overly pushing for black players, at the expense of putting the best 53 players on the roster, is unforgivable. And pushing to get Vick on this team is very questionable. He might have wanted to "help a brother out" but it was an obviously jacked move, all things considered. I don't think it is right to flatly reject a QB because he's black, but at the same time, an "all-black" push for QB is just as wrong. The GM for Jacksonville, who happened to be black, seemed to make sure that all QBs on the team were black. It was no coincidence, no way. And, partly due to that jacked mindset, the team sucked in those years. Put the best 53 players on the team, regardless of race. Operating any other way is idiotic and racist. It will be interesting to see who ends up replacing Heath Miller, Keisel and Ben, won't it?

[squidkid]

While Tomlin considered the signing of Vick, it was ultimately Tomlin who decided against it...



If Vick had been on the roster, would Ben even be a Steeler given what happened in 2010 in Milledgeville?

Go ahead and question Tomlin's judgment at that time, but don't forget to question Ben Roethlisberger's judgment at that time as well, which was infinitely worse...


just like it was tomlin who ultimately fired arians......yea, right!

[lloydroid]

While Tomlin considered the signing of Vick, it was ultimately Tomlin who decided against it...



If Vick had been on the roster, would Ben even be a Steeler given what happened in 2010 in Milledgeville?

Go ahead and question Tomlin's judgment at that time, but don't forget to question Ben Roethlisberger's judgment at that time as well, which was infinitely worse...

Woa, the cart just flew way off the tracks. Ben being a pig (which isn't illegal, just pig-like) and MT having way too strong drive to be "pro black" at the expense of the team, are not even in the same galaxy in terms of being relative. And now that we are seemingly bringing in everyone character, and comparing them, I'd much rather have a dude on my team who tries to have sex with girls in public bathrooms (not forced, he was never even charged with anything of the sort) than I would a dude who tortured and murdered dogs. Imagine lowers a dogs cage into water, while they were living, or electrocuting them in their cages until they died. Vick DID THAT SH_T. F THAT.

[squidkid]

Yea, some will accuse you of sounding racist, but I think it deserves discussion. To a degree it is nature (not just human nature) for races (i.e. breeds) to want to surround themselves with like creatures. It really is natural, so I don't want to completely point the dirty end of the stick at that mindset. Tell me, if you're in a frat and you have an Italian lineage, that when an Italian kid pledges that you don't kind of extra support him, all things being equal? I don't hate on MT for some of that. However, that being said, overly pushing for black players, at the expense of putting the best 53 players on the roster, is unforgivable. And pushing to get Vick on this team is very questionable. He might have wanted to "help a brother out" but it was an obviously jacked move, all things considered. I don't think it is right to flatly reject a QB because he's black, but at the same time, an "all-black" push for QB is just as wrong. The GM for Jacksonville, who happened to be black, seemed to make sure that all QBs on the team were black. It was no coincidence, no way. And, partly due to that jacked mindset, the team sucked in those years. Put the best 53 players on the team, regardless of race. Operating any other way is idiotic and racist. It will be interesting to see who ends up replacing Heath Miller, Keisel and Ben, won't it?


i think it is accurate to say that all races are racists and probably always will be.
as far as the black qb conspiracy...............not so sure i can buy it 100%

[Slapstick]

Woa, the cart just flew way off the tracks. Ben being a pig (which isn't illegal, just pig-like) and MT having way too strong drive to be "pro black" at the expense of the team, are not even in the same galaxy in terms of being relative. And now that we are seemingly bringing in everyone character, and comparing them, I'd much rather have a dude on my team who tries to have sex with girls in public bathrooms (not forced, he was never even charged with anything of the sort) than I would a dude who tortured and murdered dogs. Imagine lowers a dogs cage into water, while they were living, or electrocuting them in their cages until they died. Vick DID THAT SH_T. F THAT.

The cart didn't fly off the tracks...you brought up judgment...

You are missing the point...

Why wouldn't Tomlin consider another QB given what his QB was doing (and would continue to do, it turns out) at that time? Shouldn't a head coach consider all options?

So, your issue is that Tomlin is somehow too "pro-black" at QB?

If that's the case, than this thread is no longer worthy of my time...

[lloydroid]

The cart didn't fly off the tracks...you brought up judgment...

You are missing the point...

Why wouldn't Tomlin consider another QB given what his QB was doing (and would continue to do, it turns out) at that time? Shouldn't a head coach consider all options?

So, your issue is that Tomlin is somehow too "pro-black" at QB?

If that's the case, than this thread is no longer worthy of my time...

Go back and read my original post. It said nothing about MT being desirous to bring in a black QB - not one word. I was questioning why MT would want to bring in a dog killing felon, who obviously doesn't come any where close to fitting the Steeler philosophy. So, continue making up your straw man arguments, and then knocking them down. That is really impressive.

[squidkid]

The cart didn't fly off the tracks...you brought up judgment...

You are missing the point...

Why wouldn't Tomlin consider another QB given what his QB was doing (and would continue to do, it turns out) at that time? Shouldn't a head coach consider all options?

So, your issue is that Tomlin is somehow too "pro-black" at QB?

If that's the case, than this thread is no longer worthy of my time...

i dont think considering another qb at that time was a bad thing. considering who he did is suspect.

[squidkid]

i guess with D!ck Lebeau retiring shortly and the fans upset with him now, tomlin should ask to hire Jerry Sandusky. what could it hurt?

[buccoray61]

I usually feel that the people that supply my entertainment,whether it be sports,movies or music,while I might enjoy their talents,are not always people,that in real life I would want to hang out out with or even like. However in Micheal Vick's case,if he were ever on the Steelers roster,and I've been a fan since 1972,I would stop watching. That man is a walking piece of ****.

[lloydroid]

I usually feel that the people that supply my entertainment,whether it be sports,movies or music,while I might enjoy their talents,are not always people,that in real life I would want to hang out out with or even like. However in Micheal Vick's case,if he were ever on the Steelers roster,and I've been a fan since 1972,I would stop watching. That man is a walking piece of ****.

I really struggle with that. On one hand, I want to forgive, give a man a chance, he served his time, may have changed as a man. The other part of me thinks about his active hand in killing dogs, not by just having them fight, but killing the dogs who got injured or lost, by drowning and electrocution, and I get sick. That can't be chalked up as "cultural" or "how he was brought up." There is something very heinous about a man who can torture and kill animals, and especially dogs. And it would seem inherent. And Tomlin wanted him on the roster. What is wrong with him? How could he not see that would have been a very bad move? Does he not even understand his own team?

[Oviedo]

i guess with D!ck Lebeau retiring shortly and the fans upset with him now, tomlin should ask to hire Jerry Sandusky. what could it hurt?


There was a point to posting that??????????????? Was it an attempt at humor???????????????

[lloydroid]

i dont think considering another qb at that time was a bad thing. considering who he did is suspect.

You should never stop trying to improve your team, even if the Ben scandal never happened. You should always be looking to make the 53-man roster better, even if you know your QB is a franchise QB and will only be scratched if hurt. That is why I have zero problem with searching to upgrade the back up QB unit. But not with Vick. No way. As a matter of fact, if anything, I don't think they have done enough to ensure we would have a capable back up QB on a supposed Super Bowl-contending team. Not only is Leftwich not that good, but he is guaranteed to get hurt within 2 games, same as Batch. If we lose Ben for any significant amount of time, our season is over. And if you recall, Jeff Hostetler and Tom Brady were back ups who did lead their teams to SB wins. If you aren't prepared with a capable back up, your chance at a ring can vaporize if your #1 goes down.

http://mike100915.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/hostetler.jpg

[SidSmythe]

Not to turn this into a political rant, but, given our two choices then, and now, you have no decent choice either way. We are never given an option worth a gad damn sh-t when it comes down to it. I mean, McCain? Romney? Barry? All suck.

OK LloydDroid, ur starting to grow on me!! :Cheers

[DukieBoy]

This tread would make the "Worst of Planet Steelers" list, IMO, even as I don't read all the posts.

[SidSmythe]

This tread would make the "Worst of Planet Steelers" list, IMO, even as I don't read all the posts.

I think there would be plenty of "when do we switch to the 4-3" or "Dick LeBeau sucks" posts that need to go their first.

[DukieBoy]

I think there would be plenty of "when do we switch to the 4-3" or "Dick LeBeau sucks" posts that need to go their first.

Those also, Sid. Respect here for your posts, BTW.

[lloydroid]

OK LloydDroid, ur starting to grow on me!! :Cheers

Just as I am getting banned. :o

[lloydroid]

This tread would make the "Worst of Planet Steelers" list, IMO, even as I don't read all the posts.

I don't think so at all. I think it's a fairly newsworthy note that Tomlin wanted Vick in Pgh. It illustrates some things about him that I might not have realized.

[Slapstick]

Go back and read my original post. It said nothing about MT being desirous to bring in a black QB - not one word. I was questioning why MT would want to bring in a dog killing felon, who obviously doesn't come any where close to fitting the Steeler philosophy. So, continue making up your straw man arguments, and then knocking them down. That is really impressive.

The straw man argument is not mine...

You posted this:


MT having way too strong drive to be "pro black" at the expense of the team

Your words.

If you did not mean to type those particular words in that particular order, I can understand that...but, please, do not call my argument a straw man after you post that...

[Slapstick]

I don't think so at all. I think it's a fairly newsworthy note that Tomlin wanted Vick in Pgh. It illustrates some things about him that I might not have realized.

And that, in turn, illustrates some things about you that I did not realize...

[Shoe]

This tread would make the "Worst of Planet Steelers" list, IMO, even as I don't read all the posts.

Oh please Dukie. I didn't see any slurs or inappropriate remarks here. For my part, I merely pointed out something I seems apparent to me (him preferring to hire black guys at QB). Now if he comes back and hires a bunch of white guys at QB, of course the point would be moot. This is a discussion board. Politically correctness is an enemy of discussion IMO. We're here to discuss... If a racially charged issue comes up at your dinner table, are you going to shut it down? Of course not. It's the same thing isn't it?

[Shawn]

I'm sure none of you have ever made a mistake. No one here has stolen, lied, cheated on a spouse, done illegal drugs, committed a crime or anything of the like. We are saints sitting on our judgmental thrones pointing the finger at Vick...a guy who paid more than his time to society. We have a former linebacker who is idolized by the original poster...and said linebacker held a gun to the head of his own son. That is ok because he was a Steeler. People do stupid, sometimes evil things and hopefully they grow from them. I would have welcomed Vick with open arms.

and PS...before you throw out how bad of a crime it is to abuse dogs...check your own eating habits. Most here support a meat industry that makes Vicks animal cruelty look like a walk in the park.

[jj28west]

Definately not Dancin with the Stars material.


Tomlin has been the coach since the 2008 season.

Charlie Batch joined the team in 2002

Byron Leftwich joined the team in Tomlin's first year of 2008, however, I highly doubt that the rookie coach had much say in personnel that first year.

That being said, while Lefty's skin color is black, he is not someone who you would refer to as a "black QB". His style is lily white. :D

[Eddie Spaghetti]

There was a point to posting that??????????????? Was it an attempt at humor???????????????

sure wasnt funny.

[steelz09]

Yea, some will accuse you of sounding racist, but I think it deserves discussion. To a degree it is nature (not just human nature) for races (i.e. breeds) to want to surround themselves with like creatures. It really is natural, so I don't want to completely point the dirty end of the stick at that mindset. Tell me, if you're in a frat and you have an Italian lineage, that when an Italian kid pledges that you don't kind of extra support him, all things being equal? I don't hate on MT for some of that. However, that being said, overly pushing for black players, at the expense of putting the best 53 players on the roster, is unforgivable. And pushing to get Vick on this team is very questionable. He might have wanted to "help a brother out" but it was an obviously jacked move, all things considered. I don't think it is right to flatly reject a QB because he's black, but at the same time, an "all-black" push for QB is just as wrong. The GM for Jacksonville, who happened to be black, seemed to make sure that all QBs on the team were black. It was no coincidence, no way. And, partly due to that jacked mindset, the team sucked in those years. Put the best 53 players on the team, regardless of race. Operating any other way is idiotic and racist. It will be interesting to see who ends up replacing Heath Miller, Keisel and Ben, won't it?

well stated

[steelz09]

You should never stop trying to improve your team, even if the Ben scandal never happened. You should always be looking to make the 53-man roster better, even if you know your QB is a franchise QB and will only be scratched if hurt. That is why I have zero problem with searching to upgrade the back up QB unit. But not with Vick. No way. As a matter of fact, if anything, I don't think they have done enough to ensure we would have a capable back up QB on a supposed Super Bowl-contending team. Not only is Leftwich not that good, but he is guaranteed to get hurt within 2 games, same as Batch. If we lose Ben for any significant amount of time, our season is over. And if you recall, Jeff Hostetler and Tom Brady were back ups who did lead their teams to SB wins. If you aren't prepared with a capable back up, your chance at a ring can vaporize if your #1 goes down.

http://mike100915.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/hostetler.jpg

To that point, I still don't understand why we did keep Jerod Johnson

[Flasteel]

I really struggle with that. On one hand, I want to forgive, give a man a chance, he served his time, may have changed as a man. The other part of me thinks about his active hand in killing dogs, not by just having them fight, but killing the dogs who got injured or lost, by drowning and electrocution, and I get sick. That can't be chalked up as "cultural" or "how he was brought up." There is something very heinous about a man who can torture and kill animals, and especially dogs. And it would seem inherent. And Tomlin wanted him on the roster. What is wrong with him? How could he not see that would have been a very bad move? Does he not even understand his own team?

You seem like a pretty intelligent guy, so I'm trying to figure out how you can't see the impact of culture in this type of behavior. Culture is the lens by which all people view their moral, ethical, and value systems. There are very few behaviors which transcend all known cultures and can be agreed upon as good or bad everyone. If you think that the torture and killing of animals is among these sacred behaviors, then you are simply wrong.

In Spain, bulls are not only tortured and killed for sport; the top matadors are revered like all-star football or baseball players in America. It's not just bullfighting over there either. They torture and kill animals all across the country and throughout the year for myriad different festivals.

Look how animals are treated within the food industries - in this country and every other one for that matter. Some are treated in unspeakably inhumane fashions for the sake of mass producing food, while others are killed and tossed aside like garbage in the pursuit of the target prey. Look at how the Japanese fishermen treat the dolphins which get caught in their nets or what they do to sharks, just to lop off their fins. Look at zoos, lab experiments, canned hunting camps, or a hundred other examples of culturally condoned animal cruelty...they're everywhere.

In some countries dogs are on the menu. In others, they are treated as nothing more than a lowly beast whose only purpose is to serve man. Drop you in the heart of China as a baby and I guarantee that you’ll grow up to be a dog-eating, finger-licking fool, who routinely asks for second helpings. You might look at a dog no different than you look at a rat (which was on your dinner plate the night before).

You and I view this type of behavior as wrong because we were raised in cultures which value animal rights and largely view dogs as man's best friend. Other people aren't. Whether it's in China or an area in our own back yard, there are segments of people everywhere who are raised to think differently. I'm not even talking about individuals who are raised in specific households without morals or values, I'm talking about whole populations and societies which condone and normalize cruelty to animals. Dog fighting alone has been around for centuries and is still widely practiced across the world and across this country in black, white, and Hispanic cultures. Usually they are poor and ignorant communities, but they none-the-less shape the morals and values of those who are raised in them.

In Mike Vick's case, he probably never started to live outside that culture until he got to Virginia Tech. I can easily see how someone born and raised in an environment where dog-fighting and killing is the norm, would carry that belief with him. I'm sure he's known it was an illegal act since he was a small child, but the law (and law enforcement) in his community is most likely not in step with most folks' value systems. Mike Tomlin is from the same town as Mike Vick. I'm sure he knows first-hand the exact environment Vick was raised in and how that shaped his views. It seems pretty natural to want to give him a chance, if he thought he could help this team.

Now that Vick has been properly introduced to the concept of humanity and paid his debt, he should be given that second chance to show that he can operate within the acceptable laws and mores of our larger society. If you are the type of individual who is normally in the business of given others a second chance, then how can you not extend that same courtesy to someone who by all other measures (well...most other measures) is a decent human being?

How could others take such umbrage with Tomlin for having that type of understanding and forgiveness...to the point where they would give up Steeler football? I don't even get that, but hey…I support anyone's right to feel that way.

How many of you who hold that opinion, call yourself a Christian? Isn't forgiveness a core value of your professed belief system? I'm no Christian, but I find it funny when people wear that label, but do so only when it's convenient.

I take great issue with what Mike Vick did and I passionately believe that every single animal deserves our humane treatment. I eat them, but I profoundly respect them and they are delicious. But I also understand that you are a product of your environment. Any adjustment one might have when fitting into a larger society with competing norms will invariably involve second chances. Mike Vick gets that chance from me.

[Steelhere10]

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/118358-ed-tomlin-wanted-to-sign-vick-with-steelers

Seriously? Seriously? I now have to question Tomlin's ability to judge character. He wanted Vick in Pgh. WTF? Nice. Tomlin wanted a dog-torturing and murdering felon on the Steelers' roster. Thank God the Rooneys were dead set against it. I really have to question Tomlin's character now. I've always been a big MT fan; but starting with last year's worst job of coaching in play off history, this season so far, and now finding out he wanted Vick on this team....I am starting to 2nd guess how much I support him.This thread don't deserve a response! How dumb...

[fordfixer]

You seem like a pretty intelligent guy, so I'm trying to figure out how you can't see the impact of culture in this type of behavior. Culture is the lens by which all people view their moral, ethical, and value systems. There are very few behaviors which transcend all known cultures and can be agreed upon as good or bad everyone. If you think that the torture and killing of animals is among these sacred behaviors, then you are simply wrong.

In Spain, bulls are not only tortured and killed for sport; the top matadors are revered like all-star football or baseball players in America. It's not just bullfighting over there either. They torture and kill animals all across the country and throughout the year for myriad different festivals.

Look how animals are treated within the food industries - in this country and every other one for that matter. Some are treated in unspeakably inhumane fashions for the sake of mass producing food, while others are killed and tossed aside like garbage in the pursuit of the target prey. Look at how the Japanese fishermen treat the dolphins which get caught in their nets or what they do to sharks, just to lop off their fins. Look at zoos, lab experiments, canned hunting camps, or a hundred other examples of culturally condoned animal cruelty...they're everywhere.

In some countries dogs are on the menu. In others, they are treated as nothing more than a lowly beast whose only purpose is to serve man. Drop you in the heart of China as a baby and I guarantee that you’ll grow up to be a dog-eating, finger-licking fool, who routinely asks for second helpings. You might look at a dog no different than you look at a rat (which was on your dinner plate the night before).

You and I view this type of behavior as wrong because we were raised in cultures which value animal rights and largely view dogs as man's best friend. Other people aren't. Whether it's in China or an area in our own back yard, there are segments of people everywhere who are raised to think differently. I'm not even talking about individuals who are raised in specific households without morals or values, I'm talking about whole populations and societies which condone and normalize cruelty to animals. Dog fighting alone has been around for centuries and is still widely practiced across the world and across this country in black, white, and Hispanic cultures. Usually they are poor and ignorant communities, but they none-the-less shape the morals and values of those who are raised in them.

In Mike Vick's case, he probably never started to live outside that culture until he got to Virginia Tech. I can easily see how someone born and raised in an environment where dog-fighting and killing is the norm, would carry that belief with him. I'm sure he's known it was an illegal act since he was a small child, but the law (and law enforcement) in his community is most likely not in step with most folks' value systems. Mike Tomlin is from the same town as Mike Vick. I'm sure he knows first-hand the exact environment Vick was raised in and how that shaped his views. It seems pretty natural to want to give him a chance, if he thought he could help this team.

Now that Vick has been properly introduced to the concept of humanity and paid his debt, he should be given that second chance to show that he can operate within the acceptable laws and mores of our larger society. If you are the type of individual who is normally in the business of given others a second chance, then how can you not extend that same courtesy to someone who by all other measures (well...most other measures) is a decent human being?

How could others take such umbrage with Tomlin for having that type of understanding and forgiveness...to the point where they would give up Steeler football? I don't even get that, but hey…I support anyone's right to feel that way.

How many of you who hold that opinion, call yourself a Christian? Isn't forgiveness a core value of your professed belief system? I'm no Christian, but I find it funny when people wear that label, but do so only when it's convenient.

I take great issue with what Mike Vick did and I passionately believe that every single animal deserves our humane treatment. I eat them, but I profoundly respect them and they are delicious. But I also understand that you are a product of your environment. Any adjustment one might have when fitting into a larger society with competing norms will invariably involve second chances. Mike Vick gets that chance from me.

Well said:Clap:Clap

[Steelhere10]

I'm sure none of you have ever made a mistake. No one here has stolen, lied, cheated on a spouse, done illegal drugs, committed a crime or anything of the like. We are saints sitting on our judgmental thrones pointing the finger at Vick...a guy who paid more than his time to society. We have a former linebacker who is idolized by the original poster...and said linebacker held a gun to the head of his own son. That is ok because he was a Steeler. People do stupid, sometimes evil things and hopefully they grow from them. I would have welcomed Vick with open arms.

and PS...before you throw out how bad of a crime it is to abuse dogs...check your own eating habits. Most here support a meat industry that makes Vicks animal cruelty look like a walk in the park.I agree 100%. The black community there is dog fighting although I don't agree nor have I done it . The white community hunts animals and send the dogs out to fight with wild hogs is that ok ? Different society . But some on here still have a problem with the organization hiring of a black coach. Always have always will !

[steelz09]

I'm sure none of you have ever made a mistake. No one here has stolen, lied, cheated on a spouse, done illegal drugs, committed a crime or anything of the like. We are saints sitting on our judgmental thrones pointing the finger at Vick...a guy who paid more than his time to society. We have a former linebacker who is idolized by the original poster...and said linebacker held a gun to the head of his own son. That is ok because he was a Steeler. People do stupid, sometimes evil things and hopefully they grow from them. I would have welcomed Vick with open arms.

and PS...before you throw out how bad of a crime it is to abuse dogs...check your own eating habits. Most here support a meat industry that makes Vicks animal cruelty look like a walk in the park.


Are you referring to slaughter houses? I eat meat, I'm informed on how horrific a slaughter house could be and I'll continue to eat meat anyway. Does killing a deer hunting and butchering it for it's venison put you in the same category of Vick did with dogs?

Does that put me in the same category of Vick? The same guy that teased (to get them angry before fighting), killed, and tortured dogs. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your analogy but I just don't see how that makes ANY sense.

[steelz09]

I agree 100%. The black community there is dog fighting although I don't agree nor have I done it . The white community hunts animals and send the dogs out to fight with wild hogs is that ok ? Different society . But some on here still have a problem with the organization hiring of a black coach. Always have always will !

Good point about wild hogs. I will say that is very accurate and a lot of people here in the south have their "house dogs" and their "hunting dogs". They will never send their "house dogs" out hunting for hog. And they will never let the "hunting dogs" outside of their outdoor kettles.

I realize NJ/PA/NY may not have the wild hogs that the south and midwest have but I will say NJ would never allow that and I lived and hunted up there.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

The Steelers scouts and Colbert put Sean Lee as the top ranked LB that fit the Steelers. He dropped to the second round and was there for us to pick. Tomlin made the call to go against the Steelers way of doing things which is to take BPA to take Jason Worilds. His reasoning was moronic.

[DukieBoy]

You seem like a pretty intelligent guy, so I'm trying to figure out how you can't see the impact of culture in this type of behavior. Culture is the lens by which all people view their moral, ethical, and value systems. There are very few behaviors which transcend all known cultures and can be agreed upon as good or bad everyone. If you think that the torture and killing of animals is among these sacred behaviors, then you are simply wrong.

In Spain, bulls are not only tortured and killed for sport; the top matadors are revered like all-star football or baseball players in America. It's not just bullfighting over there either. They torture and kill animals all across the country and throughout the year for myriad different festivals.

Look how animals are treated within the food industries - in this country and every other one for that matter. Some are treated in unspeakably inhumane fashions for the sake of mass producing food, while others are killed and tossed aside like garbage in the pursuit of the target prey. Look at how the Japanese fishermen treat the dolphins which get caught in their nets or what they do to sharks, just to lop off their fins. Look at zoos, lab experiments, canned hunting camps, or a hundred other examples of culturally condoned animal cruelty...they're everywhere.

In some countries dogs are on the menu. In others, they are treated as nothing more than a lowly beast whose only purpose is to serve man. Drop you in the heart of China as a baby and I guarantee that you’ll grow up to be a dog-eating, finger-licking fool, who routinely asks for second helpings. You might look at a dog no different than you look at a rat (which was on your dinner plate the night before).

You and I view this type of behavior as wrong because we were raised in cultures which value animal rights and largely view dogs as man's best friend. Other people aren't. Whether it's in China or an area in our own back yard, there are segments of people everywhere who are raised to think differently. I'm not even talking about individuals who are raised in specific households without morals or values, I'm talking about whole populations and societies which condone and normalize cruelty to animals. Dog fighting alone has been around for centuries and is still widely practiced across the world and across this country in black, white, and Hispanic cultures. Usually they are poor and ignorant communities, but they none-the-less shape the morals and values of those who are raised in them.

In Mike Vick's case, he probably never started to live outside that culture until he got to Virginia Tech. I can easily see how someone born and raised in an environment where dog-fighting and killing is the norm, would carry that belief with him. I'm sure he's known it was an illegal act since he was a small child, but the law (and law enforcement) in his community is most likely not in step with most folks' value systems. Mike Tomlin is from the same town as Mike Vick. I'm sure he knows first-hand the exact environment Vick was raised in and how that shaped his views. It seems pretty natural to want to give him a chance, if he thought he could help this team.

Now that Vick has been properly introduced to the concept of humanity and paid his debt, he should be given that second chance to show that he can operate within the acceptable laws and mores of our larger society. If you are the type of individual who is normally in the business of given others a second chance, then how can you not extend that same courtesy to someone who by all other measures (well...most other measures) is a decent human being?

How could others take such umbrage with Tomlin for having that type of understanding and forgiveness...to the point where they would give up Steeler football? I don't even get that, but hey…I support anyone's right to feel that way.

How many of you who hold that opinion, call yourself a Christian? Isn't forgiveness a core value of your professed belief system? I'm no Christian, but I find it funny when people wear that label, but do so only when it's convenient.

I take great issue with what Mike Vick did and I passionately believe that every single animal deserves our humane treatment. I eat them, but I profoundly respect them and they are delicious. But I also understand that you are a product of your environment. Any adjustment one might have when fitting into a larger society with competing norms will invariably involve second chances. Mike Vick gets that chance from me.

So thoughtful, full of insight, and well-written. I love dogs, and mourn what happens to them too often. Yet Grace and Redemption so very important. Thank you for adding depth to this thread.

[virgilbosetti]

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers/118358-ed-tomlin-wanted-to-sign-vick-with-steelers

Seriously? Seriously? I now have to question Tomlin's ability to judge character. He wanted Vick in Pgh. WTF? Nice. Tomlin wanted a dog-torturing and murdering felon on the Steelers' roster. Thank God the Rooneys were dead set against it. I really have to question Tomlin's character now. I've always been a big MT fan; but starting with last year's worst job of coaching in play off history, this season so far, and now finding out he wanted Vick on this team....I am starting to 2nd guess how much I support him.

Outside of his initial press conference, don't really see anything in the guy that I do like. Heap another (small) log onto the fire.

[squidkid]

There was a point to posting that??????????????? Was it an attempt at humor???????????????

ummm, there was a poster who stated that it was a wise move for tomlin to want to add, at the time, one of the most despised men in the entire u.s. to our team . i was simply stating that if that was indeed a smart move for the team, he would also support tomlin wanting to bring in a legendary coach like sandusky.
understand?

[fezziwig]

All I can see are these terrified dogs, dogs with tears in their eyes during all their abuse. If Vick and his piece of shiit culture stoped abusing the dogs within an instant the dogs would wag their tails and be loyal to him and the other scum. Wishing that these so called humans would stop punishing them, for things they did not understand or deserve. The same dogs that would love these pieces of shiit like Viick had he stopped his abuse. No, these dogs didn't get the mercy, the forgivness or kindeness. Screw Vick and I hope he burns in hell for what he did. Culture my a$$, I don't need to know right and wrong from my culture it, comes from within. It comes from being a Christian. Have mercy on all living creatures......his culture should have read that in the bible. He had no mercy on these dogs and I have no mercy for him.

[lloydroid]

You seem like a pretty intelligent guy, so I'm trying to figure out how you can't see the impact of culture in this type of behavior. Culture is the lens by which all people view their moral, ethical, and value systems. There are very few behaviors which transcend all known cultures and can be agreed upon as good or bad everyone. If you think that the torture and killing of animals is among these sacred behaviors, then you are simply wrong.

In Spain, bulls are not only tortured and killed for sport; the top matadors are revered like all-star football or baseball players in America. It's not just bullfighting over there either. They torture and kill animals all across the country and throughout the year for myriad different festivals.

Look how animals are treated within the food industries - in this country and every other one for that matter. Some are treated in unspeakably inhumane fashions for the sake of mass producing food, while others are killed and tossed aside like garbage in the pursuit of the target prey. Look at how the Japanese fishermen treat the dolphins which get caught in their nets or what they do to sharks, just to lop off their fins. Look at zoos, lab experiments, canned hunting camps, or a hundred other examples of culturally condoned animal cruelty...they're everywhere.

In some countries dogs are on the menu. In others, they are treated as nothing more than a lowly beast whose only purpose is to serve man. Drop you in the heart of China as a baby and I guarantee that you’ll grow up to be a dog-eating, finger-licking fool, who routinely asks for second helpings. You might look at a dog no different than you look at a rat (which was on your dinner plate the night before).

You and I view this type of behavior as wrong because we were raised in cultures which value animal rights and largely view dogs as man's best friend. Other people aren't. Whether it's in China or an area in our own back yard, there are segments of people everywhere who are raised to think differently. I'm not even talking about individuals who are raised in specific households without morals or values, I'm talking about whole populations and societies which condone and normalize cruelty to animals. Dog fighting alone has been around for centuries and is still widely practiced across the world and across this country in black, white, and Hispanic cultures. Usually they are poor and ignorant communities, but they none-the-less shape the morals and values of those who are raised in them.

In Mike Vick's case, he probably never started to live outside that culture until he got to Virginia Tech. I can easily see how someone born and raised in an environment where dog-fighting and killing is the norm, would carry that belief with him. I'm sure he's known it was an illegal act since he was a small child, but the law (and law enforcement) in his community is most likely not in step with most folks' value systems. Mike Tomlin is from the same town as Mike Vick. I'm sure he knows first-hand the exact environment Vick was raised in and how that shaped his views. It seems pretty natural to want to give him a chance, if he thought he could help this team.

Now that Vick has been properly introduced to the concept of humanity and paid his debt, he should be given that second chance to show that he can operate within the acceptable laws and mores of our larger society. If you are the type of individual who is normally in the business of given others a second chance, then how can you not extend that same courtesy to someone who by all other measures (well...most other measures) is a decent human being?

How could others take such umbrage with Tomlin for having that type of understanding and forgiveness...to the point where they would give up Steeler football? I don't even get that, but hey…I support anyone's right to feel that way.

How many of you who hold that opinion, call yourself a Christian? Isn't forgiveness a core value of your professed belief system? I'm no Christian, but I find it funny when people wear that label, but do so only when it's convenient.

I take great issue with what Mike Vick did and I passionately believe that every single animal deserves our humane treatment. I eat them, but I profoundly respect them and they are delicious. But I also understand that you are a product of your environment. Any adjustment one might have when fitting into a larger society with competing norms will invariably involve second chances. Mike Vick gets that chance from me.

You bring up some great points, and many that I agree with (i.e. the vast differences in cultures across the world, and how things that repulse us are the norm in other countries, etc. and how many of those who call themselves Christians are horrible at applying the published teachings of Christ - I say "published" because some believe the Bible contains the words of other men, not Christ himself, but I digress.)

I have not lived where Vick grew up, and even if I did, I am not a black man so I still might not be able to evaluate what his societal norm and culture were. And as I posted earlier in this thread, I find myself conflicted on Vick himself. On one hand I feel like "give the dude a chance, he seems like he's a different person, good for him for making such a dramatic change and making himself a new man, not only with distancing himself from dog fighting, but he has matured, found work ethic, appreciates what gifts he has in life, etc." I don't stare at the TV when he is on with any hatred in my heart. On the other hand, when I am watching someone might say, "I hate that dude; what he did to dogs in unforgivable." And, as a dog lover and owner, I can see that side too. Mostly, my mindset is "forgive the dude and move on, he seems like he's learned a great deal to become a better person" but once in a while, when I think about what he did, I get a little upset over it.

Now, as far as blaming it all on the "culture" he grew up in, I can't give it a 100% based on that. How is it different than when the Chinese eat dog? Well, for one, it isn't illegal to eat dog there. It is illegal to dog fight here, whether or not the local police tried to enforce those laws or not. Now, do I think that one should follow every letter of the law? Well, no. Because there are still laws on the books in certain states that say oral sex is illegal, or, well, endless dumb laws that no one will enforce. So, no, I don't think every law deserves to be followed - at some point common sense comes into play. That being said, dog fighting laws don't seem to fall into the "weird laws no one follows" category. I can agree, to a degree, that upbringing, local culture comes into play. But only to a degree. To take the example to more of an extreme to make a point, what if in your local area, kidnapping and raping kids was acceptable in your local culture. Does that excuse you from any wrong doing if you entertain that life style? Where do you draw the line?

[Steelhere10]

All I can see are these terrified dogs, dogs with tears in their eyes during all their abuse. If Vick and his piece of shiit culture stoped abusing the dogs within an instant the dogs would wag their tails and be loyal to him and the other scum. Wishing that these so called humans would stop punishing them, for things they did not understand or deserve. The same dogs that would love these pieces of shiit like Viick had he stopped his abuse. No, these dogs didn't get the mercy, the forgivness or kindeness. Screw Vick and I hope he burns in hell for what he did. Culture my a$$, I don't need to know right and wrong from my culture it, comes from within. It comes from being a Christian. Have mercy on all living creatures......his culture should have read that in the bible. He had no mercy on these dogs and I have no mercy for him.Now this is what you call a hypocrite . Not to get in a religious war with you, But you say you are a Christian, but then you come back and say that you want a human to burn in Hell. But from my understanding God forgive us all for our sins and it is his judgement, not yours.... Do you kinda get the picture. I thought being a Christian that you would pray for people , not to wish Hell on them.

[fezziwig]

Now this is what you call a hypocrite . Not to get in a religious war with you, But you say you are a Christian, but then you come back and say that you want a human to burn in Hell. But from my understanding God forgive us all for our sins and it is his judgement, not yours.... Do you kinda get the picture. I thought being a Christian that you would pray for people , not to wish Hell on them.

I'm not casting my pearls on swines. Vick and anyone that does this kind of stuff is a swine. I can forgive a lot of stuff but, not when you do something as horrible as this. I can't see just the fact of him getting caught means he's sorry for it. I don't know how anyone could really feel remorse if they are capable of doing what he did. And with that, I have no problems if he went to hell over it. I feel the same way about Hitler, Ted Bundy, BTK serial killer anyone that kills and torture for the fun of it or the hate in it that gives them their high. It doesn't matter to me if it is only dogs. Dogs animals still feel the pain, the hurt as humans do. Evil people should go to hell in my opinion and to me, Vick and anyone that does that is missing something in their soul and they are evil.

[Steelhere10]

I'm not casting my pearls on swines. Vick and anyone that does this kind of stuff is a swine. I can forgive a lot of stuff but, not when you do something as horrible as this. I can't see just the fact of him getting caught means he's sorry for it. I don't know how anyone could really feel remorse if they are capable of doing what he did. And with that, I have no problems if he went to hell over it. I feel the same way about Hitler, Ted Bundy, BTK serial killer anyone that kills and torture for the fun of it or the hate in it that gives them their high. It doesn't matter to me if it is only dogs. Dogs animals still feel the pain, the hurt as humans do. Evil people should go to hell in my opinion and to me, Vick and anyone that does that is missing something in their soul and they are evil.Let's just say that in Vick case or anyone else that did something horrible in your eyes, that after the fact that whatever was done and they truly asked the lord for forgiveness and meant it . Why in the world should they burn in Hell ? There is no one on this earth that hasn't sinned or committed some type of crime, Do we all deserve to burn in Hell ? All I'm saying is that those are really strong words that you are using and you might want to reconsider what you are saying. But to each as own.. Have a good night my friend.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

It's one thing to use a dog as a tool to make money or even to use for entertainment in sport then when the dog is injured badly to put it down in a humane manner which is a bullet to the head instantly. Humans initially hunted animals for food and trade, but now hunt them, shoot them, wound them, trap them, stalk them, track them, kill them, gut them, skin them, and at this point in quite a few instances it's more for tradition or profit. People fight cocks and dogs and we even fight each other. Quite a few hunters own hunting dogs that sleep in the yard in a cage or tied to a doghouse and don't live in a house with their owners where they are treated as a tool more than a live in family friend.

I don't necessarily take great issue with a the use of dogs as tools as long they are treated in a humane way.

I do however take issue with the manner in the way he did not kill the dogs in the most humane way possible. He drowned or electrocuted the animals to death. That is what, to me, is wrong. Only he knows if he took enjoyment out of killing them in the less humane, more torturous manners of terminating their lives.

Just to be clear with my personal stance on dogs I am a dog lover and my two dogs are like my mute fur covered kids.

[Chadman]

If we question Tomlin's judgement, then we must question Tony Dungy's judgement. Dungy is generally regarded as a well-respected & thoughful man- he took Mike Vick under his wing & worked with him to get Vick back into the NFL community.

Is it condoning Vick's actions?

No.

But it's giving him a second chance. We let criminals, murderers, rapists & what-not, walk from jail after they serve their time in punishment. Why should Vick be treated differently?

[Shawn]

Are you referring to slaughter houses? I eat meat, I'm informed on how horrific a slaughter house could be and I'll continue to eat meat anyway. Does killing a deer hunting and butchering it for it's venison put you in the same category of Vick did with dogs?

Does that put me in the same category of Vick? The same guy that teased (to get them angry before fighting), killed, and tortured dogs. Maybe I'm misinterpreting your analogy but I just don't see how that makes ANY sense.

The point is you support animal cruelty with your money. The meat industry tortures and kills animals...how don't you get that analogy? I know my dad grew up rooster fighting. It was culturally accepted. He didn't see it as wrong. While I disagree with what Vick did, I certainly believe he got more time than deserved. So, when people pass judgment on other human beings...throwing stones like they are perfect...I just have to shake my head.

[Shawn]

I think most of us can agree that hurting animals is a bad thing. The question remains...are any of us perfect? If not, do we want second chances and forgiveness? If so, then why are we stingy with grace to others?

[lloydroid]

All I can see are these terrified dogs, dogs with tears in their eyes during all their abuse. If Vick and his piece of shiit culture stoped abusing the dogs within an instant the dogs would wag their tails and be loyal to him and the other scum. Wishing that these so called humans would stop punishing them, for things they did not understand or deserve. The same dogs that would love these pieces of shiit like Viick had he stopped his abuse. No, these dogs didn't get the mercy, the forgivness or kindeness. Screw Vick and I hope he burns in hell for what he did. Culture my a$$, I don't need to know right and wrong from my culture it, comes from within. It comes from being a Christian. Have mercy on all living creatures......his culture should have read that in the bible. He had no mercy on these dogs and I have no mercy for him.

respect....

[lloydroid]

If we question Tomlin's judgement, then we must question Tony Dungy's judgement. Dungy is generally regarded as a well-respected & thoughful man- he took Mike Vick under his wing & worked with him to get Vick back into the NFL community.

Is it condoning Vick's actions?

No.

But it's giving him a second chance. We let criminals, murderers, rapists & what-not, walk from jail after they serve their time in punishment. Why should Vick be treated differently?

Good point

[stopplayn]

We have some good ole boys in the Steelers Nation. I'll share a statement a buddy shared with me once when I spurted something racist when Kordell was constantly bleeping up. My buddy said "Just think if they had all of the blacks on one team and all the whites on the other team. I know who you would root for but who do you think would win. GOING AWAY??? A little perspective

[stopplayn]

Dogs are so important that God doesnt even mention them in the Bible. Nor does he mention them in His kingdom in Heaven. Not to diminish dogs in this realm but I find it ironic that they will play no role in the next realm Hmmmmm

[hawaiiansteel]

Steelers notebook: Eagles QB Vick has shined against Pittsburgh

By Alan Robinson
Published: Tuesday, October 2, 2012

http://triblive.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=YP3DV rRhMwF2GZoxfXeSLs$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtTwu_CeAkqSGP Zjn1_ebRJWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4 uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_C ryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg

Quarterback Michael Vick will face the Steelers for only the third time in 10 years and the first with Philadelphia.

Vick had two huge games against them with Atlanta — a 34-34 tie in 2002 at Heinz Field in which he led the Falcons back from a 17-point deficit in the fourth quarter and a 41-38 win in 2006 when he threw for four touchdowns.

“He has a skill set that is unique,” Steelers coach Mike Tomlin said. “He’s extremely quick and fast. He can get out of tough spots. He’s got a quick release.”

Vick has thrown for 526 yards and five touchdowns and rushed for 78 yards and a score against the Steelers.

• Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger couldn’t contain his excitement during training camp as rookie Chris Rainey excelled as a receiver out of the backfield, a kick returner and a speed back capable of breaking off long runs. But Rainey has been almost invisible during the regular season, carrying six times for 15 yards and returning only one punt, although he has four kickoff returns. He had two carries for 7 yards against Oakland as the Steelers tried four backs — Isaac Redman, Jonathan Dwyer, Baron Batch and Rainey — in an unsuccessful effort to generate a running game.

• The Steelers will try to avoid losing consecutive games for the first time since dropping five in a row late in 2009. They were 12-4 each of the past two seasons. “I think that anybody that’s extremely competitive and has been good over an extended period of time, you understand you can’t have losing streaks,” Tomlin said. “We’re interested in stacking wins. We’re stacking zero right now because we lost the last time we played.”

• The Steelers have won following their bye week each of the past four seasons. “It’s an opportunity to self-evaluate, see where we are and work on some areas of needed improvement,” Tomlin said. Asked if this bye week came too early, he said, “I haven’t run across a bye week that didn’t seem to come in a timely manner.”

http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/2699589-85/steelers-vick-yards-bye-kickers-rainey-tomlin-week-games-past#ixzz28JR1COdz

[Slapstick]

What Tomlin did was consider signing Michael Vick. Consider. As you can tell by the pic in the post above, that did not happen...Vick is wearing an Eagles helmet.

There were some people (even on this board) who considered cutting or trading Ben after the Millegdeville incident. Considered.

What about James Harrison slapping his child's mother around over a baptism? Anybody consider cutting or trading him?

The issue isn't really whether or not Michael Vick is an evil POS...the issue is whether or not Mike Tomlin's consideration to bring him to the Steelers is even an issue...

BTW, it really isn't...once you enter the realm of judging people over what they reportedly considered doing as opposed to what actually happened, well, you're going to end up doing a lot of pointless judging...

[fezziwig]

Typical, when someone can't argue their way out, blame it on racism.

[Notleadpoisoned]

We have some good ole boys in the Steelers Nation. I'll share a statement a buddy shared with me once when I spurted something racist when Kordell was constantly bleeping up. My buddy said "Just think if they had all of the blacks on one team and all the whites on the other team. I know who you would root for but who do you think would win. GOING AWAY??? A little perspective
Who would be the 2 starting cornerbacks on the white team? You'd probably have to find some experienced white corners on the Division 2 or Division 3 level just to fill the position.

[fezziwig]

you really don't need to worry about having white corners, the other teams qb won't be that good anyway.

[feltdizz]

wow Fezzi.. you are really showing your azzz. Do you live in Beaver County? LOL...

Now as far as black QB's go... this is a Steeler tradition, not a Tomlin tradition and it makes sense that Tomlin would consider Vick given his talent on field, cheap asking price and his connection to Tony Dungy.

Now the Dog fighting and killing... I think FlaSteel hit the nail on the head. Not sure how people can claim being a christian and then turn around and say burn and hell.

Some people view dog fighting/cock fighting/bull fighting as a sport... I've seen video's of pit bulls chasing and ripping up pigs at festivals in the midwest... ESPN and Outdoor channels show people hunting wild animals in controlled areas..

The guy paid his debt and hopefully he learned a valuable lesson.

[steelz09]

The point is you support animal cruelty with your money. The meat industry tortures and kills animals...how don't you get that analogy? I know my dad grew up rooster fighting. It was culturally accepted. He didn't see it as wrong. While I disagree with what Vick did, I certainly believe he got more time than deserved. So, when people pass judgment on other human beings...throwing stones like they are perfect...I just have to shake my head.

Was Vick eating the dogs? Killing an animal for food consumption and killing a animal for no reason is a completely different thing.

Plants are considered living things... should we not cut down plants to eat corn, tomatoes, and other vegetables? That could be too harsh and cruel on the plants, right?

Comparing what Vick did to basically the food chain just doesn't make sense.

This just reminds me of when people get upset because someone has to kill a bear, a tiger, a shark, an alligator or whatever because it was harsh to the animal. Or when people have dangerous animals as pets and then they are surprised when they attack one day. This is almost the same mindset your having. Those animals don't like you and they never will... They are instinctive killing machines. They want food, water, a mate, etc and if you interfere, they will kill you. It's like the guy in Alaska. Supposedly, he had a special bond and was "friends" with these Grizzly bears. He was friends alright.... up until the bear got hungry and ate him and his wife. Maybe we should ask that bear to never do that it again... it was too harsh and tortuous to those humans.... being eaten alive.

[Slapstick]

Was Vick eating the dogs? Killing an animal for food consumption and killing a animal for no reason is a completely different thing.

Plants are considered living things... should we not cut down plants to eat corn, tomatoes, and other vegetables? That could be too harsh and cruel on the plants, right?

Comparing what Vick did to basically the food chain just doesn't make sense.

This just reminds me of when people get upset because someone has to kill a bear, a tiger, a shark, an alligator or whatever because it was harsh to the animal. Or when people have dangerous animals as pets and then they are surprised when they attack one day. This is almost the same mindset your having. Those animals don't like you and they never will... They are instinctive killing machines. They want food, water, a mate, etc and if you interfere, they will kill you. It's like the guy in Alaska. Supposedly, he had a special bond and was "friends" with these Grizzly bears. He was friends alright.... up until the bear got hungry and ate him and his wife. Maybe we should ask that bear to never do that it again... it was too harsh and tortuous to those humans.... being eaten alive.

Not to speak for Shawn, but what I got out of what he said was this:

Despite the fact that the animals in our meat industry are slaughtered for food, the method of killing the animals is no less cruel than the way that Vick killed those dogs...

The reason why they are killed isn't important in this case...it's the method used and the treatment of those animals up to the point of the slaughter that is inhumane...

Does the animal know why it was killed? No...it only knows it was tortured in captivity up to the point of it's (needlessly cruel) death...

I'm not saying, "Don't eat meat." But, those animals are mistreated as badly as Vick's dogs were...

[feltdizz]

Not to speak for Shawn, but what I got out of what he said was this:

Despite the fact that the animals in our meat industry are slaughtered for food, the method of killing the animals is no less cruel than the way that Vick killed those dogs...

The reason why they are killed isn't important in this case...it's the method used and the treatment of those animals up to the point of the slaughter that is inhumane...

Does the animal know why it was killed? No...it only knows it was tortured in captivity up to the point of it's (needlessly cruel) death...

I'm not saying, "Don't eat meat." But, those animals are mistreated as badly as Vick's dogs were...

I agree...

[steelz09]

Not to speak for Shawn, but what I got out of what he said was this:

Despite the fact that the animals in our meat industry are slaughtered for food, the method of killing the animals is no less cruel than the way that Vick killed those dogs...

The reason why they are killed isn't important in this case...it's the method used and the treatment of those animals up to the point of the slaughter that is inhumane...

Does the animal know why it was killed? No...it only knows it was tortured in captivity up to the point of it's (needlessly cruel) death...

I'm not saying, "Don't eat meat." But, those animals are mistreated as badly as Vick's dogs were...

The reason they were killed is important. That is the fundamental difference. If you don't put that into consideration this isn't even worth discussing. Think of the below analogy....

1) A "favored" boxer loses a boxing match. Afterwards, the MGM Grand executes the "favored" boxer in the electric chair because the boxer performed poorly and likewise, bets were lost, TV ratings were poor and future attendance will suffer.

2) A hiker in Alaska was attacked, killed and eaten by a Grizzly bear for no other reason than food.

Both suffered a very unfortunate, unnecessary and cruel death.

Basically, what you're saying is (1) is just as acceptable as (2) because they both suffered a cruel death. The fundamental difference is one harsh death is specifically geared around food and the food chain. The other is a senseless act of executing someone or something for not performing well. Vick did that to dogs. He didn't kill for the sake of food. If you can lump those 2 killings in the same category, I think that is messed up but thats your opinion. Are they both cruel killings? Yes. However, they were done for 2 COMPLETELY different reasons and they are not created equal in my mind

[stopplayn]

Typical, when someone can't argue their way out, blame it on racism.

Sorry racism exists and if you dont think there are racial undertones behind the hatred for Vick then you arent being honest. Dogfighting is HUGE in the South and its ran by WHITE GUYS. How do I know? I live there and everyone in the south will acknowledge this fact. Do you think we could field an all white team and complete with the blacks? I dont, we would get KILLED. If you think we would win then please list the lineups. I guarantee you cant put together a better lineup than they would have. GUARANTEEE

[SanAntonioSteelerFan]

I can't figure out why the NFL let Vick back in, given their allergy to bad publicity.

I guess they figured the $$ from ticket sales would outweigh the dollars lost from bad publicity.

"Follow the money".

[stopplayn]

Does God enter Dogs into Heaven? NOPE. Perspective.

I GUESS ALL OF YOU KNOW BETTER THAN GOD

[stopplayn]

I am interested in the GOOD OLE BOYS fielding a white team that can beat the black team. I tried it and failed miserably. At the end of the day IF you take all of the blacks out of the NFL and you wont have many elite athletes. Peyton Hillis is no Lesean Mccoy, Adrian Peterson etc. Sorry.

[Steelhere10]

That was me, hey man don't take my credit away. Lol jk but for some reason I confuse your user name with his.. Lmao

[feltdizz]

I can't figure out why the NFL let Vick back in, given their allergy to bad publicity.

I guess they figured the $$ from ticket sales would outweigh the dollars lost from bad publicity.

"Follow the money".

ya think? lol...

[steelz09]

I am interested in the GOOD OLE BOYS fielding a white team that can beat the black team. I tried it and failed miserably. At the end of the day IF you take all of the blacks out of the NFL and you wont have many elite athletes. Peyton Hillis is no Lesean Mccoy, Adrian Peterson etc. Sorry.

Your absolutely right. On average, blacks have been the superior athlete. Running, jumping, etc... they rank better then white people

On average, white people have had more success with cerebral positions (i.e. QB), sports/activities. This has been studied and is a proven fact.

Neither is really debatable. Of course, there are exceptions to both of these....

[eniparadoxgma]

I am interested in the GOOD OLE BOYS fielding a white team that can beat the black team. I tried it and failed miserably. At the end of the day IF you take all of the blacks out of the NFL and you wont have many elite athletes. Peyton Hillis is no Lesean Mccoy, Adrian Peterson etc. Sorry.

What the hell are you even talking about anymore?

[stopplayn]

your absolutely right. On average, blacks have been the superior athlete. Running, jumping, etc... They rank better then white people

on average, white people have had more success with cerebral positions (i.e. Qb), sports/activities. This has been studied and is a proven fact.

Neither is really debatable. Of course, there are exceptions to both of these....

cause we're smarter lol

[stopplayn]

What the hell are you even talking about anymore?

Translation: I cant field a team comparable.

EXACTLY!!!

[Ghost]

What the hell are you even talking about anymore?

Seems to be a plethora of topics. A cornicopia, if you will. Let me help:

Vick
Tomlin's judgement
Politics
Peyton Hillis - Mike Alstott
Races being racist
Carts going off tracks
Dog fighting
Hunting
Deep thoughts by Flasteel
Sean Lee
Hogs in the wild in the South
Christianity & Hell
Slaughter Houses
2nd Chances
All whites teams (and the quality of their cornerbacks)
Hiking in Alaska with bears

I believe I've made things crystal clear...

[eniparadoxgma]

Seems to be a plethora of topics. A cornicopia, if you will. Let me help:

Vick
Tomlin's judgement
Politics
Peyton Hillis - Mike Alstott
Races being racist
Carts going off tracks
Dog fighting
Hunting
Deep thoughts by Flasteel
Sean Lee
Hogs in the wild in the South
Christianity & Hell
Slaughter Houses
2nd Chances
All whites teams (and the quality of their cornerbacks)
Hiking in Alaska with bears

I believe I've made things crystal clear...

Crystal clear...as mud.:)

To clarify, what does the all white team vs all black team tangent have to do with the topic of Tomlin considering Vick? Or better yet, what does it have to do with anything? lol

[MeetJoeGreene]

... some of my favorite TribLIve creations:

http://www.planetsteelers.com/steelersblog/wp-content/gallery/contest-7/MeetJoeGreene1.jpg

http://www.planetsteelers.com/steelersblog/wp-content/gallery/contest-7/MeetJoeGreene2.jpg

[DBR96A]

Maybe it's been pointed out already, but something to consider is that Mike Tomlin and Michael Vick are both from the Hampton Roads area of Virginia. Maybe they're both familiar with each other.

[lloydroid]

Maybe it's been pointed out already, but something to consider is that Mike Tomlin and Michael Vick are both from the Hampton Roads area of Virginia. Maybe they're both familiar with each other.

Familiar with each other? Like MT attended the same dog fights?

[lloydroid]

The reason they were killed is important. That is the fundamental difference. If you don't put that into consideration this isn't even worth discussing. Think of the below analogy....

1) A "favored" boxer loses a boxing match. Afterwards, the MGM Grand executes the "favored" boxer in the electric chair because the boxer performed poorly and likewise, bets were lost, TV ratings were poor and future attendance will suffer.

2) A hiker in Alaska was attacked, killed and eaten by a Grizzly bear for no other reason than food.

Both suffered a very unfortunate, unnecessary and cruel death.

Basically, what you're saying is (1) is just as acceptable as (2) because they both suffered a cruel death. The fundamental difference is one harsh death is specifically geared around food and the food chain. The other is a senseless act of executing someone or something for not performing well. Vick did that to dogs. He didn't kill for the sake of food. If you can lump those 2 killings in the same category, I think that is messed up but thats your opinion. Are they both cruel killings? Yes. However, they were done for 2 COMPLETELY different reasons and they are not created equal in my mind

Hmmm, logic and reason. Now those are 2 things I can appreciate.

[lloydroid]

Dogs are so important that God doesnt even mention them in the Bible. Nor does he mention them in His kingdom in Heaven. Not to diminish dogs in this realm but I find it ironic that they will play no role in the next realm Hmmmmm

Excuse me. But not everyone is going to assume the Bible is the word of God. Who decided that? Because dogs are not mentioned in the Bible means we can torture them? My GOD, that's crazy. The Bible was written by men, and it was edited and changes 100s of times. And the story of Jesus is almost exactly the same as the story of Horus, supposedly lived 1000s of years before Jesus, had 12 disciples, born of a virgin mother, was son of God, etc.

[lloydroid]

If we question Tomlin's judgement, then we must question Tony Dungy's judgement. Dungy is generally regarded as a well-respected & thoughful man- he took Mike Vick under his wing & worked with him to get Vick back into the NFL community.

Is it condoning Vick's actions?

No.

But it's giving him a second chance. We let criminals, murderers, rapists & what-not, walk from jail after they serve their time in punishment. Why should Vick be treated differently?

The Steelers try hard to not have players with bad character issues; they are a clean image club. (Not saying they only have angels on the team, as we all know, but they do TRY to keep an image of a clean cut team, within reason. The gave Holmes away for peanuts just for hippie lettuce, and were close to dumping Ben for being a pig, etc.) There is no way in hell the Rooneys would consider adding a felon who killed dogs to the team; not saying that they wished Vick didn't get a 2nd chance, but it wasn't going to be on their team. For Tomlin not to automatically know this is mind boggling. Then again, maybe he did and was just giving Vick his support so another team would be more likely to give him a shot. That is possible.

[Slapstick]

The reason they were killed is important. That is the fundamental difference. If you don't put that into consideration this isn't even worth discussing. Think of the below analogy....

1) A "favored" boxer loses a boxing match. Afterwards, the MGM Grand executes the "favored" boxer in the electric chair because the boxer performed poorly and likewise, bets were lost, TV ratings were poor and future attendance will suffer.

2) A hiker in Alaska was attacked, killed and eaten by a Grizzly bear for no other reason than food.

Both suffered a very unfortunate, unnecessary and cruel death.

Basically, what you're saying is (1) is just as acceptable as (2) because they both suffered a cruel death. The fundamental difference is one harsh death is specifically geared around food and the food chain. The other is a senseless act of executing someone or something for not performing well. Vick did that to dogs. He didn't kill for the sake of food. If you can lump those 2 killings in the same category, I think that is messed up but thats your opinion. Are they both cruel killings? Yes. However, they were done for 2 COMPLETELY different reasons and they are not created equal in my mind

I'm not saying that what Vick did is somehow more acceptable...

I'm saying that, if you are truly against the mistreatment of animals, than both are unacceptable...

Your bear analogy would make more sense if the Grizzly bears kept a stable of humans locked up in inhumane conditions and then periodically slaughtered some of them in a cruel manner for food...

It may be part of the food chain, but there is nothing sportsmanlike or accidental about the meat industry...

[Slapstick]

The Steelers try hard to not have players with bad character issues; they are a clean image club. (Not saying they only have angels on the team, as we all know, but they do TRY to keep an image of a clean cut team, within reason. The gave Holmes away for peanuts just for hippie lettuce, and were close to dumping Ben for being a pig, etc.) There is no way in hell the Rooneys would consider adding a felon who killed dogs to the team; not saying that they wished Vick didn't get a 2nd chance, but it wasn't going to be on their team. For Tomlin not to automatically know this is mind boggling. Then again, maybe he did and was just giving Vick his support so another team would be more likely to give him a shot. That is possible.

If Tomlin had truly decided that he wanted Vick on the team, I believe that Vick would have been a Steeler...

But, I think that, after careful consideration of all of the factors (Vick's record, Dungy's endorsement, Roethlisberger's legal problems and the Rooneys' opinion), Tomlin decided to pass...

The HC considered every option to make the team better and came to the decision that the Vick option was not the right one at that time...

That's pretty much exactly what I want my HC and my organization to do...

[feltdizz]

I heard Tonkin didn't want DeCastro because he was white but Colbert and Rooney over ruled him.

[feltdizz]

The Steelers try hard to not have players with bad character issues; they are a clean image club. (Not saying they only have angels on the team, as we all know, but they do TRY to keep an image of a clean cut team, within reason. The gave Holmes away for peanuts just for hippie lettuce, and were close to dumping Ben for being a pig, etc.) There is no way in hell the Rooneys would consider adding a felon who killed dogs to the team; not saying that they wished Vick didn't get a 2nd chance, but it wasn't going to be on their team. For Tomlin not to automatically know this is mind boggling. Then again, maybe he did and was just giving Vick his support so another team would be more likely to give him a shot. That is possible.

They didn't dump Holmes for weed... they dumped him because we weren't going to be able to afford to keep him and this was the best way to get some value for him.

We brought in Plaxico but he wanted more than we were willing to offer.

I also thought it was done as a favor to Dungy.

[hawaiiansteel]

They didn't dump Holmes for weed... they dumped him because we weren't going to be able to afford to keep him and this was the best way to get some value for him.

We brought in Plaxico but he wanted more than we were willing to offer.

I also thought it was done as a favor to Dungy.


Sanstonio's tweets where he suggested to one fan that he go kill himself also factored into why we got rid of him.

as for Plaxiglass, we had an offer on the table for him but he decided to take the Jets' higher offer.

[lloydroid]

They didn't dump Holmes for weed... they dumped him because we weren't going to be able to afford to keep him and this was the best way to get some value for him.


Yes they did. What did they end up getting for him? A 6th rounder? You call that getting "something for him?" How many 6th round picks end up making the team, let alone, producing? It just so happened that they traded him within days of Holmes getting busted for weed again? That was just a coincidence? The Steelers were reeling from the Ben scandal. They were suffering from massive PR problems with Ben alone, and then Holmes rolls up with the lettuce? They traded him to make a stand: This team was not full of hoods, and if it has some, their acts will not be tolerated; either they will be sent packing or go under some disciplinary action, such as the program Ben was on. Now, Holmes upcoming contract _COULD_ have made the decision to trade him more of a no-brainer, to that I will agree. But the weed is what caused the move to happen.

[Flasteel]

Seems to be a plethora of topics. A cornicopia, if you will. Let me help:

Vick
Tomlin's judgement
Politics
Peyton Hillis - Mike Alstott
Races being racist
Carts going off tracks
Dog fighting
Hunting
Deep thoughts by Flasteel
Sean Lee
Hogs in the wild in the South
Christianity & Hell
Slaughter Houses
2nd Chances
All whites teams (and the quality of their cornerbacks)
Hiking in Alaska with bears

I believe I've made things crystal clear...

Nice summary Ghost!!

Sorry for the dissertation...Cheech and Chong stopped by my house.:D

[hawaiiansteel]

Yes they did. What did they end up getting for him? A 6th rounder? You call that getting "something for him?" How many 6th round picks end up making the team, let alone, producing?

actually, the Steelers ended up trading Santokio to the Jets for a 5th round pick which we traded to Arizona for Bryant McFadden and a 6th round draft choice which we used to select Antonio Brown.

so the Sanstonio trade ended up turning out very well for us...:tt2

[virgilbosetti]

What the hell are you even talking about anymore?
If he gets half a clue, I'm sure we'll be the first to know.

[feltdizz]

Yes they did. What did they end up getting for him? A 6th rounder? You call that getting "something for him?" How many 6th round picks end up making the team, let alone, producing? It just so happened that they traded him within days of Holmes getting busted for weed again? That was just a coincidence? The Steelers were reeling from the Ben scandal. They were suffering from massive PR problems with Ben alone, and then Holmes rolls up with the lettuce? They traded him to make a stand: This team was not full of hoods, and if it has some, their acts will not be tolerated; either they will be sent packing or go under some disciplinary action, such as the program Ben was on. Now, Holmes upcoming contract _COULD_ have made the decision to trade him more of a no-brainer, to that I will agree. But the weed is what caused the move to happen.

When Holmes was caught with blunts in his car we didn't get rid of him... I'm not denying that weed didn't have something to do with it but if Holmes had 3 years left on his contract I don't think we deal him for 5Th rounder.

We've put up with a lot of ignorance from players... but if your contract is up it seems like that's the time when we make an example out of a player. Cedric Wilson had an incident with his wife and we got rid of him... JH has an incident with his wife and we claim it was over a baptism and sweep it under the rug.

When the Steelers cut/trade a good player with 3 years left on his contract I'll buy what your selling.... but trading a player who said we wouldn't be able to afford him next year doesn't cut it.

[lloydroid]

actually, the Steelers ended up trading Santokio to the Jets for a 5th round pick which we traded to Arizona for Bryant McFadden and a 6th round draft choice which we used to select Antonio Brown.

so the Sanstonio trade ended up turning out very well for us...:tt2

In that case, it was one of the best trades of all time! (Other than getting McFadden back, that is.)

[feltdizz]

actually, the Steelers ended up trading Santokio to the Jets for a 5th round pick which we traded to Arizona for Bryant McFadden and a 6th round draft choice which we used to select Antonio Brown.

so the Sanstonio trade ended up turning out very well for us...:tt2

If we let Santonio play out his last year what would we get for him if he signed with another team?

[lloydroid]

If Tomlin had truly decided that he wanted Vick on the team, I believe that Vick would have been a Steeler...

But, I think that, after careful consideration of all of the factors (Vick's record, Dungy's endorsement, Roethlisberger's legal problems and the Rooneys' opinion), Tomlin decided to pass...

The HC considered every option to make the team better and came to the decision that the Vick option was not the right one at that time...

That's pretty much exactly what I want my HC and my organization to do...

I totally don't see it that way. MT has limited powers, IMO. I don't think he would make such a large call as bringing on someone as polarizing as Vick without the Rooneys making the final call. That is way too massive of a decision that could impact the franchise, good or bad, in such a colossal manner. I have seen evidence that MT has less power than did Cowher. For instance, a lot of the coaches sent packing were not MT's decisions. I don't think MT has more than just a partial say in the draft; he gets to put his two cents in, but I think Art2 is making the call, especially on early picks.

[virgilbosetti]

Yes they did. What did they end up getting for him? A 6th rounder? You call that getting "something for him?" How many 6th round picks end up making the team, let alone, producing? It just so happened that they traded him within days of Holmes getting busted for weed again? That was just a coincidence? The Steelers were reeling from the Ben scandal. They were suffering from massive PR problems with Ben alone, and then Holmes rolls up with the lettuce? They traded him to make a stand: This team was not full of hoods, and if it has some, their acts will not be tolerated; either they will be sent packing or go under some disciplinary action, such as the program Ben was on. Now, Holmes upcoming contract _COULD_ have made the decision to trade him more of a no-brainer, to that I will agree. But the weed is what caused the move to happen.

Without a doubt.....this was a statement. Im sure the contract situation had something to do with it. Limited at best.

[birtikidis]

I have a feeling tomlin would say he wants x qb on his team every team regardless of what team we are playing. Tomlin believes strongly in not giving the other team any other incentive. This has nothing to do with race or character.

[stopplayn]

Excuse me. But not everyone is going to assume the Bible is the word of God. Who decided that? Because dogs are not mentioned in the Bible means we can torture them? My GOD, that's crazy. The Bible was written by men, and it was edited and changes 100s of times. And the story of Jesus is almost exactly the same as the story of Horus, supposedly lived 1000s of years before Jesus, had 12 disciples, born of a virgin mother, was son of God, etc.

Ok, How abou the Quran? The Injeel? The Psalms? The Pentu (sp?? Jewish scriptures) I agree with what you say about the MANY remixes of the Bible, the story of Jesus (some things WERE plagiarized). I agree. However, SOME truth remains. The fact still remains that Dogs play a role in this realm but NO role in the FOREVER realm. In fact God has said that Animals were put here for mankind- a Mercy.

[stopplayn]

If Tomlin had truly decided that he wanted Vick on the team, I believe that Vick would have been a Steeler...

But, I think that, after careful consideration of all of the factors (Vick's record, Dungy's endorsement, Roethlisberger's legal problems and the Rooneys' opinion), Tomlin decided to pass...

The HC considered every option to make the team better and came to the decision that the Vick option was not the right one at that time...

That's pretty much exactly what I want my HC and my organization to do...

As I recall at the Time Tomlin stated that adding Vick wouldnt be fair to Ben. He said "I'm standing by Ben" or something to that effect

[stopplayn]

Yes they did. What did they end up getting for him? A 6th rounder? You call that getting "something for him?" How many 6th round picks end up making the team, let alone, producing? It just so happened that they traded him within days of Holmes getting busted for weed again? That was just a coincidence? The Steelers were reeling from the Ben scandal. They were suffering from massive PR problems with Ben alone, and then Holmes rolls up with the lettuce? They traded him to make a stand: This team was not full of hoods, and if it has some, their acts will not be tolerated; either they will be sent packing or go under some disciplinary action, such as the program Ben was on. Now, Holmes upcoming contract _COULD_ have made the decision to trade him more of a no-brainer, to that I will agree. But the weed is what caused the move to happen.

PLUS 1000. Accurate post

[stopplayn]

I totally don't see it that way. MT has limited powers, IMO. I don't think he would make such a large call as bringing on someone as polarizing as Vick without the Rooneys making the final call. That is way too massive of a decision that could impact the franchise, good or bad, in such a colossal manner. I have seen evidence that MT has less power than did Cowher. For instance, a lot of the coaches sent packing were not MT's decisions. I don't think MT has more than just a partial say in the draft; he gets to put his two cents in, but I think Art2 is making the call, especially on early picks.

Tomlin has less power? PROVE THAT. I think whoever Tomlin wants to draft HE DRAFTS. Same with Cowher. Cowher would draft lots of white guys. Tomlin does NOT. Is that the Rooneys or Tomlin? I say its TOMLIN and proof that HE HAS POWER.

[steelz09]

I'm not saying that what Vick did is somehow more acceptable...

I'm saying that, if you are truly against the mistreatment of animals, than both are unacceptable...

Your bear analogy would make more sense if the Grizzly bears kept a stable of humans locked up in inhumane conditions and then periodically slaughtered some of them in a cruel manner for food...

It may be part of the food chain, but there is nothing sportsmanlike or accidental about the meat industry...

Actually, I'm not against the bear incident. That is an act of survival. That is an act of animal instincts. Was it cruel? Yes. With that being said, it's human nature and animal nature to do what is necessary for survival.

I can't control the way cows are killed... can you? I don't own a farm or know anyone that does... specifically for meat purposes...

Going back to the Vick reference...

Vick murdering dogs because of poor dog fighting performance would be equal to the MGM Grand executing a boxer for bad performance.

[virgilbosetti]

No way Tomlin was just handed the power that took Cowher x nbr of yrs to accumulate. He may have more say than most, but no way he has the veto power of a Rooney.

[Mister Pittsburgh]

Ok, How abou the Quran? The Injeel? The Psalms? The Pentu (sp?? Jewish scriptures) I agree with what you say about the MANY remixes of the Bible, the story of Jesus (some things WERE plagiarized). I agree. However, SOME truth remains. The fact still remains that Dogs play a role in this realm but NO role in the FOREVER realm. In fact God has said that Animals were put here for mankind- a Mercy.

I believe in the paranormal and psychic mediums do see dog owners with their dogs.

[lloydroid]

Tomlin has less power? PROVE THAT. I think whoever Tomlin wants to draft HE DRAFTS. Same with Cowher. Cowher would draft lots of white guys. Tomlin does NOT. Is that the Rooneys or Tomlin? I say its TOMLIN and proof that HE HAS POWER.

Why is Art 2 sit right at the very draft table during the draft that MT does? Is he just telling jokes and eating ice cream and making animal balloons? Art has final say. He overruled Cowher on the Ben pick, as BC wanted the OT who went to Philly instead. Had BC got his way, we'd have never got Ben and would be minus 2 more rings. No way does MT have more power than BC did.

[lloydroid]

I believe in the paranormal and psychic mediums do see dog owners with their dogs.

I hope my life time dogs get along with each other in the afterlife. My current one is one hell of a trouble maker and could be a problem with my other dogs, big time, for eternity. That would be bad.

[steelz09]

I heard Tonkin didn't want DeCastro because he was white but Colbert and Rooney over ruled him.

It wouldn't be the first time Rooney overruled Tomlin.... Prime example is when Rooney had to fire Arians.

[Slapstick]

It was Dan who overruled BC on Ben...

[Slapstick]

Actually, I'm not against the bear incident. That is an act of survival. That is an act of animal instincts. Was it cruel? Yes. With that being said, it's human nature and animal nature to do what is necessary for survival.

I can't control the way cows are killed... can you? I don't own a farm or know anyone that does... specifically for meat purposes...

Going back to the Vick reference...

Vick murdering dogs because of poor dog fighting performance would be equal to the MGM Grand executing a boxer for bad performance.

And my analogy of the bears keeping humans captive in inhumane conditions and periodically slaughtering a few of them is also fitting...

We can't control how the meat industry kills animals, but neither do we have to pretend that is humane...

I understand the food chain and have no problem with eating for survival...but the manner in which the animals are dispatched (and how they are treated beforehand) is unnecessarily cruel...

We overlook these things because dogs are perceived as faithful companion animals while cows are perceived as porterhouse steaks and baseball gloves...

Finally, what Vick did is despicable...it is in no way even remotely acceptable...

[Shawn]

Was Vick eating the dogs? Killing an animal for food consumption and killing a animal for no reason is a completely different thing.

Plants are considered living things... should we not cut down plants to eat corn, tomatoes, and other vegetables? That could be too harsh and cruel on the plants, right?

Comparing what Vick did to basically the food chain just doesn't make sense.

This just reminds me of when people get upset because someone has to kill a bear, a tiger, a shark, an alligator or whatever because it was harsh to the animal. Or when people have dangerous animals as pets and then they are surprised when they attack one day. This is almost the same mindset your having. Those animals don't like you and they never will... They are instinctive killing machines. They want food, water, a mate, etc and if you interfere, they will kill you. It's like the guy in Alaska. Supposedly, he had a special bond and was "friends" with these Grizzly bears. He was friends alright.... up until the bear got hungry and ate him and his wife. Maybe we should ask that bear to never do that it again... it was too harsh and tortuous to those humans.... being eaten alive.

So, because you eat the animal somehow it's ok to torture it? I'm not talking about killing...I'm talking about animal cruelty at the hands of those who handle cattle. You support that industry everytime you eat a steak. What about hunting for sport? It isn't illegal not to eat what you kill. People are always looking for a reason to judge others. Fla nailed it, and I really haven't seen anyone rebut anything he said. Vick is not an evil man...certainly not any more so than you or I. So, if you want to point fingers...then by all means have at it. But, I highly doubt you should be in line to cast stones.

[virgilbosetti]

I know I don't post here much, but I've been a MBorder for a bunch of yrs. This has to be one of the strangest threads I've ever read. :Beer

[feltdizz]

Tomlin has less power? PROVE THAT. I think whoever Tomlin wants to draft HE DRAFTS. Same with Cowher. Cowher would draft lots of white guys. Tomlin does NOT. Is that the Rooneys or Tomlin? I say its TOMLIN and proof that HE HAS POWER.

You sound delusional... lol at Cowher drafting a bunch of white guys.

[Shawn]

Let me say one more thing. There are those who believe killing animals even for food is grotesque and cruel. Others believe its ok to eat meat but not hunt. Others believe its ok to hunt if you eat what you hunt. And even others who believe its ok to hunt for sport, or pit animals for sport. This is more cultural and about public opinion than it is about consistency. Vick committed a crime because something he was taught was ok and acceptable is illegal. He paid his debt to society...now let the man earn his living in peace.

[Shawn]

Ok, How abou the Quran? The Injeel? The Psalms? The Pentu (sp?? Jewish scriptures) I agree with what you say about the MANY remixes of the Bible, the story of Jesus (some things WERE plagiarized). I agree. However, SOME truth remains. The fact still remains that Dogs play a role in this realm but NO role in the FOREVER realm. In fact God has said that Animals were put here for mankind- a Mercy.

Anytime I read someone comparing the story of Christ to Horus it gives me a chuckle. It reveals their unlearned condition about Biblical history. With that said, this isn't a Bible discussion nor should people have to sort through a Biblical debate when reading about sports. If y'all want to discuss Bible, Horus, and translational errors I would love to engage that discussion in another thread in the general topic section.

[stopplayn]

Why is Art 2 sit right at the very draft table during the draft that MT does? Is he just telling jokes and eating ice cream and making animal balloons? Art has final say. He overruled Cowher on the Ben pick, as BC wanted the OT who went to Philly instead. Had BC got his way, we'd have never got Ben and would be minus 2 more rings. No way does MT have more power than BC did.

Art has final say? DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH

[stopplayn]

You sound delusional... lol at Cowher drafting a bunch of white guys.

He didnt? He sure drafted more than Tomlin. Why is that?

[hawaiiansteel]

I know I don't post here much, but I've been a MBorder for a bunch of yrs. This has to be one of the strangest threads I've ever read. :Beer

http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f20/772404d1343132677-thoughts-vintage-seamaster-chronometer-cal-354-movement-silly.jpg

[eniparadoxgma]

You sound delusional... lol at Cowher drafting a bunch of white guys.

Agreed. What is this I don't even.


Anytime I read someone comparing the story of Christ to Horus it gives me a chuckle. It reveals their unlearned condition about Biblical history. With that said, this isn't a Bible discussion nor should people have to sort through a Biblical debate when reading about sports. If y'all want to discuss Bible, Horus, and translational errors I would love to engage that discussion in another thread in the general topic section.

Because this thread has stayed on track up until now, right? :D I'm curious. What's the issue with Horus? How about Mithra? Krishna?


I know I don't post here much, but I've been a MBorder for a bunch of yrs. This has to be one of the strangest threads I've ever read. :Beer

I have no idea what an MBorder is but I think I'll refute what you're saying in a way that keeps in line with the rest of this thread:

http://i.imgur.com/XUJ64.jpg (http://imgur.com/XUJ64)

On edit: Nice one, Hawaiian. :D

[virgilbosetti]

Sweet! Lol

[Shawn]

Agreed. What is this I don't even.



Because this thread has stayed on track up until now, right? :D I'm curious. What's the issue with Horus? How about Mithra? Krishna?



I have no idea what an MBorder is but I think I'll refute what you're saying in a way that keeps in line with the rest of this thread:

http://i.imgur.com/XUJ64.jpg (http://imgur.com/XUJ64)

On edit: Nice one, Hawaiian. :D


havent we already had that discussion?

[eniparadoxgma]

havent we already had that discussion?

If we have I don't recall it. Not a big deal. I was just curious as there are numerous historical figures that are cited to have a lot of the same aspects as Jesus: Horus, Mithra, and Krishna all being examples.

On edit: Don't worry about it. I'm doing my own research.

[Shawn]

Yeah we had a discussion on Horus...you stated the story of Jesus was plagiarized from the Horus story. I showed you it wasn't. But we did it in a general discussion thread.

[Slapstick]

If we have I don't recall it. Not a big deal. I was just curious as there are numerous historical figures that are cited to have a lot of the same aspects as Jesus: Horus, Mithra, and Krishna all being examples.



You forgot the most famous historical example:

667

[eniparadoxgma]

You forgot the most famous historical example:

667

Haha, nice. :tt2:tt2:tt2

[steelz09]

So, because you eat the animal somehow it's ok to torture it? I'm not talking about killing...I'm talking about animal cruelty at the hands of those who handle cattle. You support that industry everytime you eat a steak. What about hunting for sport? It isn't illegal not to eat what you kill. People are always looking for a reason to judge others. Fla nailed it, and I really haven't seen anyone rebut anything he said. Vick is not an evil man...certainly not any more so than you or I. So, if you want to point fingers...then by all means have at it. But, I highly doubt you should be in line to cast stones.

This is just laughable. I get it Shawn...

The MGM Grand should start electricuting boxers to death because they perform badly in the ring.

Why shouldn't they? The MGM Grand serves steaks at their buffets. It's all the same...

[Mister Pittsburgh]

It wouldn't be the first time Rooney overruled Tomlin.... Prime example is when Rooney had to fire Arians.

Arians retired....get it right....;)

[lloydroid]

Yea know, I started this thread, and it was totally legit; I can't be responsible for what it's become. I mean, I guess I contributed to it going off the tracks, but I surely am not solely responsible. That being said, there are tons of similarities between Jesus and Horus stories. That cannot be denied.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm

[hawaiiansteel]

Yea know, I started this thread, and it was totally legit; I can't be responsible for what it's become. I mean, I guess I contributed to it going off the tracks, but I surely am not solely responsible. That being said, there are tons of similarities between Jesus and Horus stories. That cannot be denied.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm

I respect every man's right to have whatever religious beliefs they wish.

however, this is the wrong forum to discuss them...

[Slapstick]

This is just laughable. I get it Shawn...

The MGM Grand should start electricuting boxers to death because they perform badly in the ring.

Why shouldn't they? The MGM Grand serves steaks at their buffets. It's all the same...

Shawn is saying that the MGM Grand should not do either one...

[lloydroid]

I respect every man's right to have whatever religious beliefs they wish.

however, this is the wrong forum to discuss them...

I know I started a thread on Tomlin wanting Vick on the team and then someone went into how killing dogs must not matter because they are not mentioned in the Bible. Go figure.

[Shawn]

This is just laughable. I get it Shawn...

The MGM Grand should start electricuting boxers to death because they perform badly in the ring.

Why shouldn't they? The MGM Grand serves steaks at their buffets. It's all the same...

I'm glad that sound logic makes you laugh.

[Shawn]

Lloyd you do realize much of the information on that site is either slanted or bold faced deception right?

[Shawn]

Btw i started a Jesus Horus post in the general section for those interested.

[SDSteel1]

I respect every man's right to have whatever religious beliefs they wish.

however, this is the wrong forum to discuss them...

On the contrary, after reading this whole laughable thread I would say this is the perfect thread to discuss just about anything. There are a bunch of nuts on this planet....any many of them are Steeler fans!!:0

[Shawn]

Ok, Eni let's ignore cultural norms and just base right and wrong upon your visceral reactions to things. I believe bull fighting to be cruel, but there must be whole countries of "sociopaths". What purpose does bull fighting serve? What purpose does hunting non excess animals for pure sport serve? Should we call those types of hunters sociopaths? I used to like to shoot at birds and frogs when I was a child with my BB gun...killed a few too...am I a sociopath?

The general public scares me, and let me tell you why. They allow their emotions to overrules their logic all too often. That can leak out into the justice system. I find Vicks actions repulsive...but I can also think about it logically and consistently. I realize what Vick did was just a degree worse than what some hunters do...and what slaughterhouses do. I don't think it's any worse than bull fighting or rooster fighting that much of my family in WV involved themselves with...and thought it ok. I would have sentenced him with that in mind...instead of thinking about my two dogs who I love dearly. He was over sentenced...no doubt in my mind...and it's because of people who think like you...who expressed emotion when they should be making decisions concerning a mans life...with logic.

[Steelerphile]

I think I've wanted to add my thoughts on people who make a big distinction between those who kill animals for food and in hunting, and those who have killed animals just to inflict pain. I don't draw a big distinction. I don't think the animal draws a big distinction about whether someone killed them to be served up for dinner or to be hung on a hunters trophy wall, or were killed by a mean-spirited person for another reason. They don't know why they were killed. They did not choose to be killed by any of these, nor is the animal killed in painless humane way, either in a slaughterhouse or by the hunter. The person who kills an animal in the slaughterhouse may, in fact, find a perverse pleasure in doing. Not everyone could do that job. Not everyone likes to shoot animals in the wild, either, and I think there is a certain group of people who look down on those who enjoy this as a sport.

So, for me to condemn Vick so vociferously for this dog-fighting incident, is somewhat hypocritical. Like the killing of animals in every other way is so benign. Vick felt remorse, used his platform to condemn those activities and did the time. So,I think it should be forgiven.

[Shawn]

Good post Steelerphile.

[lloydroid]

Ok, Eni let's ignore cultural norms and just base right and wrong upon your visceral reactions to things. I believe bull fighting to be cruel, but there must be whole countries of "sociopaths". What purpose does bull fighting serve? What purpose does hunting non excess animals for pure sport serve? Should we call those types of hunters sociopaths? I used to like to shoot at birds and frogs when I was a child with my BB gun...killed a few too...am I a sociopath?

The general public scares me, and let me tell you why. They allow their emotions to overrules their logic all too often. That can leak out into the justice system. I find Vicks actions repulsive...but I can also think about it logically and consistently. I realize what Vick did was just a degree worse than what some hunters do...and what slaughterhouses do. I don't think it's any worse than bull fighting or rooster fighting that much of my family in WV involved themselves with...and thought it ok. I would have sentenced him with that in mind...instead of thinking about my two dogs who I love dearly. He was over sentenced...no doubt in my mind...and it's because of people who think like you...who expressed emotion when they should be making decisions concerning a mans life...with logic.

Not only that, but the govt. manipulates us by using our emotions. Obviously, politicians use our emotions to gain votes, or make you not vote for their opponent, which is often the same thing. How did we find ourselves in two wars that most thinking people wanted nothing to do with? Tugging on our emotions. "We have to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" says those working for people who will prosper from these wars. How many times did W, Cheney, Powell, Rice, et al repeat "9-11, mushroom cloud, WMDs, etc.?" How many times did they use Saddam and al Qaida in the same sentence, even admitting that he had zero to do with 9-11, but mentioning him, constantly, in the same sentence made Americans think there was a relation, when, in fact, there was absolutely none. When asked directly, they would have to admit there was no relation (which barely ever happened, because our media is controlled by the elite) but they would go right back to just including all those words in the same sentence." How more Americans didn't see through this BS is beyond my understanding. I saw what an obvious lie it was ALL ALONG. I never was duped with that cheap tactic. It allowed for the basic murder of 1,000,000 people who had nothing to do with threatening America in any way. Talk about killing? I think we can all agree that the unnecessary killing of human beings is morally corrupt. And, no, just because they have brown skin and are Muslim doesn't give anyone a pass on the mass murder. They are still human beings.

[lloydroid]

I think I've wanted to add my thoughts on people who make a big distinction between those who kill animals for food and in hunting, and those who have killed animals just to inflict pain. I don't draw a big distinction. I don't think the animal draws a big distinction about whether someone killed them to be served up for dinner or to be hung on a hunters trophy wall, or were killed by a mean-spirited person for another reason. They don't know why they were killed. They did not choose to be killed by any of these, nor is the animal killed in painless humane way, either in a slaughterhouse or by the hunter. The person who kills an animal in the slaughterhouse may, in fact, find a perverse pleasure in doing. Not everyone could do that job. Not everyone likes to shoot animals in the wild, either, and I think there is a certain group of people who look down on those who enjoy this as a sport.

So, for me to condemn Vick so vociferously for this dog-fighting incident, is somewhat hypocritical. Like the killing of animals in every other way is so benign. Vick felt remorse, used his platform to condemn those activities and did the time. So,I think it should be forgiven.

There is a big-time distinction between the two. I am sure slaughterhouses are disgusting. I have no problem admitting that I prefer not to see my food killed. Should everyone who eats meat be forced to see the animals killed? Not in my book. And, animals killed in slaughterhouses are not made to suffer for long lengths. When you force dogs to fight, it is far more inhumane. And, even when hunting, if you don't land a kill shot, a deer, for instance, suffers for great lengths as they try to flee for their lives, with a searing bullet in their lungs, trying desperately to breath and get away. No way is that as quick as when they slaughter a cow. And one huge point that no one has made: there is a difference between killing a dim animal vs. killing animals capable of loving you and possessing actual emotions, as dogs do. These are mostly creatures who want to love us, be our companions, and make darn good ones. And for that, we force them to fight to the death, and if they don't die, we kill them by drowning or electrocution? That's the same as slaughtering a cow for meat? Hell no, it ain't.

And, by the way, society, in general, agrees with me. How do I know? Because there are significant animal cruelty laws in every state. If people didn't agree with me, those laws would not exist. And, also, if Vick didn't fight these charges, he probably wouldn't have served any time. The reason he got hammered was he fought tooth and nail to fight it, when, if fact, he was guilty of the crime he'd been charged for. That's why he got the book thrown at him. And before we throw a pity party for him, he was able to get back a contract worth $100 million. Let's not feel too sorry for him. He was allowed back in his profession and able to make a living none of us will ever see in our life times. I am not begrudging him for it; just saying he was allowed back in the NFL, so, society has, in general, forgiven him for his past atrocities.

[lloydroid]

Lloyd you do realize much of the information on that site is either slanted or bold faced deception right?

Yea, that's the cry of everyone who doesn't like what something says, no matter how factual. Even if you are right, I can find dozens and dozens of sites that reveal the same information, and you will probably say they are all invalid and "not credible." I don't know you, and if you resemble this remark, but I find it humorous that some ardent Christians will claims sources "are not credible" as if the Bible itself, is beyond reproach when it comes to credibility, in a real way. It's simply not. If anything, it's one of the potential least credible source known to man. And it's chalk full of contradictions.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/biblecontradictions.htm#.UHBpTa5O-So

I will probably be told that that site isn't "credible." And even if that's true, I can find dozens of other sites that detail the contradictions of the Bible. I am not looking to pee in anyone's Cheerios if they choose to think the Bible is "holy" and beyond reproach. But those same people really shouldn't be quick to make claims that other sources are "not credible" when the thing they think is pure truth was put together by men, 100s of years after Jesus was said to be alive. And it's has been edited a lot since it's inception, by MEN, who had an AGENDA. Of course, someone God it together. And when we ask how credible such a thing can be, formed in the manner it was, we are then told to "have faith" as if someone making that claim is on any kind of solid ground to question credibility. "Blind faith" is the polar opposite of credibility. No one operating on such a flawed logic model should ever accuse sources of lacking credibility.

[hawaiiansteel]

Lloyd you do realize much of the information on that site is either slanted or bold faced deception right?

according to who, you?

[lloydroid]

according to who, you?

Go over to the general forum for more on this subject.

[Slapstick]

There is a big-time distinction between the two. I am sure slaughterhouses are disgusting. I have no problem admitting that I prefer not to see my food killed. Should everyone who eats meat be forced to see the animals killed? Not in my book. And, animals killed in slaughterhouses are not made to suffer for long lengths. When you force dogs to fight, it is far more inhumane. And, even when hunting, if you don't land a kill shot, a deer, for instance, suffers for great lengths as they try to flee for their lives, with a searing bullet in their lungs, trying desperately to breath and get away. No way is that as quick as when they slaughter a cow. And one huge point that no one has made: there is a difference between killing a dim animal vs. killing animals capable of loving you and possessing actual emotions, as dogs do. These are mostly creatures who want to love us, be our companions, and make darn good ones. And for that, we force them to fight to the death, and if they don't die, we kill them by drowning or electrocution? That's the same as slaughtering a cow for meat? Hell no, it ain't.

Again, rightly or wrongly, cows are viewed as hamburgers and cowboy boots while dogs are faithful companions...:rolleyes:

[Shawn]

Yea, that's the cry of everyone who doesn't like what something says, no matter how factual. Even if you are right, I can find dozens and dozens of sites that reveal the same information, and you will probably say they are all invalid and "not credible." I don't know you, and if you resemble this remark, but I find it humorous that some ardent Christians will claims sources "are not credible" as if the Bible itself, is beyond reproach when it comes to credibility, in a real way. It's simply not. If anything, it's one of the potential least credible source known to man. And it's chalk full of contradictions.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/biblecontradictions.htm#.UHBpTa5O-So

I will probably be told that that site isn't "credible." And even if that's true, I can find dozens of other sites that detail the contradictions of the Bible. I am not looking to pee in anyone's Cheerios if they choose to think the Bible is "holy" and beyond reproach. But those same people really shouldn't be quick to make claims that other sources are "not credible" when the thing they think is pure truth was put together by men, 100s of years after Jesus was said to be alive. And it's has been edited a lot since it's inception, by MEN, who had an AGENDA. Of course, someone God it together. And when we ask how credible such a thing can be, formed in the manner it was, we are then told to "have faith" as if someone making that claim is on any kind of solid ground to question credibility. "Blind faith" is the polar opposite of credibility. No one operating on such a flawed logic model should ever accuse sources of lacking credibility.

go to the Horus thread. That is another Christian hater site full of misinformation. To save us time...read the link I posted in the Horus thread. As for contradictions...I agree with your assessment of editing. I have studied this for the last three years. It's interesting what happened to the Latin Vulgate...and the KJV...the politics around the translations. It's why I do my own research...make up my own mind about what I believe. I could write a book on the subject. What is nice though is technology allows us to check things in the original languages...see for ourselves.

[Shawn]

according to who, you?

Yes according to me and most who have actually done their own research on the subject.

[Steelerphile]

There is a big-time distinction between the two. I am sure slaughterhouses are disgusting. I have no problem admitting that I prefer not to see my food killed. Should everyone who eats meat be forced to see the animals killed? Not in my book. And, animals killed in slaughterhouses are not made to suffer for long lengths. When you force dogs to fight, it is far more inhumane. And, even when hunting, if you don't land a kill shot, a deer, for instance, suffers for great lengths as they try to flee for their lives, with a searing bullet in their lungs, trying desperately to breath and get away. No way is that as quick as when they slaughter a cow. And one huge point that no one has made: there is a difference between killing a dim animal vs. killing animals capable of loving you and possessing actual emotions, as dogs do. These are mostly creatures who want to love us, be our companions, and make darn good ones. And for that, we force them to fight to the death, and if they don't die, we kill them by drowning or electrocution? That's the same as slaughtering a cow for meat? Hell no, it ain't.

And, by the way, society, in general, agrees with me. How do I know? Because there are significant animal cruelty laws in every state. If people didn't agree with me, those laws would not exist. And, also, if Vick didn't fight these charges, he probably wouldn't have served any time. The reason he got hammered was he fought tooth and nail to fight it, when, if fact, he was guilty of the crime he'd been charged for. That's why he got the book thrown at him. And before we throw a pity party for him, he was able to get back a contract worth $100 million. Let's not feel too sorry for him. He was allowed back in his profession and able to make a living none of us will ever see in our life times. I am not begrudging him for it; just saying he was allowed back in the NFL, so, society has, in general, forgiven him for his past atrocities.

The one thing I would add is from what I understand, a pig is one of the most intelligent beasts on the earth. Some might say they have a higher level of intelligence than a dog and are capable of feeling emotions. I don't think you are qualified to say which animal is capable of feeling love or not. I think cows are capable of this also. Although pigs might not be forced to fight during their short lives, they are often raised and live out their lives in horrendous conditions which are tantamount to torture. This is all overlooked because, people by and large enjoy eating pork chops, bacon ribs or etc.

To the animal being killed by drowning or electrocution is the same as being struck down in the slaughterhouse for meat, beause their lives were taken, and they loved their lives more than you realize and now they are dead in both cases.

[fezziwig]

Sorry racism exists and if you dont think there are racial undertones behind the hatred for Vick then you arent being honest. Dogfighting is HUGE in the South and its ran by WHITE GUYS. How do I know? I live there and everyone in the south will acknowledge this fact. Do you think we could field an all white team and complete with the blacks? I dont, we would get KILLED. If you think we would win then please list the lineups. I guarantee you cant put together a better lineup than they would have. GUARANTEEE

To tell you the truth, I've never heard of dog fighting before I don't care what color the persons are it's wrong and all involved need to be punished. The black people on this site are the most predjucice or at least more predjudice than the white people on this site in my opinion. I've heard a couple of times from feldezz that Beaver County or north of the burgh is predjudice and how can you say that about an entire county ? What wasn't handed to you that makes all of us racist ?

BTW, I don't hate Vick because he's black, I hate and not really sure I really hate him but, I don't like the guy because what he did to the dogs. If you want to make me out to be a racist or feel you have to further your cause well, I can't stop you.

[fezziwig]

I can't figure out why the NFL let Vick back in, given their allergy to bad publicity.

I guess they figured the $$ from ticket sales would outweigh the dollars lost from bad publicity.

"Follow the money".

Maybe they plan on doing a positive commercial or public annoucement for herpes someday ?

[lloydroid]

Again, rightly or wrongly, cows are viewed as hamburgers and cowboy boots while dogs are faithful companions...:rolleyes:

That's because it's true. How many families have a "family cow?" Why not? Dogs are a natural companion for man. They have intelligence, emotions and offer companionship. Cows may be cool in their own way, but they simply are not the same "animal" as dogs, period.

[Slapstick]

That's because it's true. How many families have a "family cow?" Why not? Dogs are a natural companion for man. They have intelligence, emotions and offer companionship. Cows may be cool in their own way, but they simply are not the same "animal" as dogs, period.

...in our perception...thus, the hypocrisy...

Hence the previous discussion on culture...and how dogs are considered food within certain other cultures...

[fezziwig]

Be it dogs are food in other cultures or not the whole point that bothers me about it is, you don't torture living animals whether it's a dog, cow, mouse or what ever animal. And as a culture, there are somethings in life you should automatically know or be aware of without just following the crowd.

[Slapstick]

Be it dogs are food in other cultures or not the whole point that bothers me about it is, you don't torture living animals whether it's a dog, cow, mouse or what ever animal. And as a culture, there are somethings in life you should automatically know or be aware of without just following the crowd.

Agreed. Yet, when we buy a hamburger, we are complicit...

[eniparadoxgma]

Be it dogs are food in other cultures or not the whole point that bothers me about it is, you don't torture living animals whether it's a dog, cow, mouse or what ever animal. And as a culture, there are somethings in life you should automatically know or be aware of without just following the crowd.

I deleted my posts in this thread because they didn't come off the way I had intended, but you summarized my feelings on it nicely fezz.

[steelz09]

Be it dogs are food in other cultures or not the whole point that bothers me about it is, you don't torture living animals whether it's a dog, cow, mouse or what ever animal. And as a culture, there are somethings in life you should automatically know or be aware of without just following the crowd.

Just to take things a step further... Plants are living things.

Now we're all screwed.

We can't eat beef anymore because of slaughter houses and it being animal cruelty.

And to make matters worse, now we can't eat vegetables or fruit anymore because they too are living things and are killed for human and animal consumption.

Think plants don't get tortured? Imagine your limbs getting cut off by some type of farm equipment or John Deere tractor. lol :roll:

It's the food chain people.

Vick electricuting dogs because of a bad dog fighting performance is equivalent to the MGM Grand sending a boxer to the electric chair for a bad performance.

[fezziwig]

Thanks eniparadoxgma, I thought you would call me a racist because I didn't get teary eyed and feel Vick was the victim here. But then again, I am from Beaver County/North of the Burgh and we are all supposed to be racist here according to one of the posters on this site. Yep, me and some of the good old boys are going add some more bleach to the laundry so the sheets are nice and white.

[fezziwig]

Just to take things a step further... Plants are living things.

Now we're all screwed.

We can't eat beef anymore because of slaughter houses and it being animal cruelty.

And to make matters worse, now we can't eat vegetables or fruit anymore because they too are living things and are killed for human and animal consumption.

Think plants don't get tortured? Imagine your limbs getting cut off by some type of farm equipment or John Deere tractor. lol :roll:

It's the food chain people.

Vick electricuting dogs because of a bad dog fighting performance is equivalent to the MGM Grand sending a boxer to the electric chair for a bad performance.


Exactly, torture is torture and pain is pain no matter what species here on earth. Jesus Christ went fishing, ate fish and ate meat and I doubt he would have approved of seeing his dinner slapped around before meal time.

[feltdizz]

Thanks eniparadoxgma, I thought you would call me a racist because I didn't get teary eyed and feel Vick was the victim here. But then again, I am from Beaver County/North of the Burgh and we are all supposed to be racist here according to one of the posters on this site. Yep, me and some of the good old boys are going add some more bleach to the laundry so the sheets are nice and white.

A few things... I was joking about Beaver County but if you really are from there I think I should get credit. LOL... (the lol is laughter).

I never said Beaver County was racist... I never said you were racist... but I'm familiar with the area. I was there 2 weeks ago and when I walked into a bar with a female friend (im black, she is mixed) half the bar got up and left. The tension between blacks and whites has always been high in Beaver County....

The reason I called you out is because this thread has more than a few post suggesting Tomlin is racist against white players in the draft. Did you address it? No... but as soon as someone brought up race with Vick you were all over it. You say blacks on this sight are more racist than whites? How? Who? When? I think there are probably 5 black members on here... (not sure, made it up) but my point is race is rarely mentioned in this site. I questioned why we draft so many black back up QB's a few months ago... but I can't recall that many discussions on race besides Crash and the white Ben thing he loved to do.

I apologize if I offended.

[SanAntonioSteelerFan]

I haven't read the whole thread and haven't focused on the racial bits (I come from Norwegian goatherd stock, we can scale cliffs quite well, but our social radar skills in these areas are understandably underdeveloped), but as I see it one Steeler Brother offered his apologies, the other Steeler Brother said he didn't mean to offend in any case, so it's all good - now let's go avenge that Christmas week loss to the Tittans from a few years ago - see if they dare to stomp on the Terrible Towel this time!! (Didn't they go from something like 13-3 to 3-13 the next year, and Lendale White got injured/traded, and basically the whole city came down with bed bugs?).

[fezziwig]

feltdizz your really a good man to apologize, not many found these days. Sorry you got the cold shoulder coming back here (BC) and obviousy I wouldn't experience anything like that. I did think this thread was going in the wrong direction so sorry for shooting back so, I was wrong also. I am going to ask my buddy what type of guy Goodell was in college. My first guess is nerd that hated when his oxfords got dusty or dirt on them.
And with this greedy guy, I bet it was hell when he may have lost a penny from his loafers.