PDA

View Full Version : How embarrassed is...



JDSteeler
10-01-2012, 09:30 AM
D!ck LeBeau and the Steelers Defense???

Opening Day vs the Chargers, the Raiders scored 14 pts at home.

Week #2, the Fins put up 35 points, thrashing the happless Raiders by 22.

Yesterday the Broncos crushed the Raiders by 31.

Yet, inexplicably, the Steelers had all kinds of problems stopping a team that couldn't
manage 34 points in the other 3 games they played.

Is this a sign that the Steelers Defense is truly OLD, SLOW, and Completely DONE, or
was it just a bad day??

I truly believe that if Troy and James had been playing, it would have been different.

However, that defensive preformance was the WORST that I have EVER seen!!!

The Steelers Defense $h!t the bed for 5 straight possessions, allowing the Raiders
to erase 7 and 10 pt leads, throughout the game.

I'm worried...if the Steelers couldn't stop the Raiders from scoring 34, 34 are you
kidding me, 34, than who are they going to stop???

Absolutley pathetic!!

:HeadBanger :HeadBanger :HeadBanger

JD

Oviedo
10-01-2012, 09:59 AM
I would really like to think we just had a couple "bad days" but I think the roots of the problem are deeper than that.

Personally, I really don't think LeBeau is embarassed at all because he doesn't think anything is really wrong that a few adjustments won't fix. He'll never believe that his "baby is ugly" but the past is the past.

As far as Troy and Harrison playing, I really don't think we see Harrison again this season if at all. Troy may be back but do we really think he won't be injured again? If the defense won't work without those two we do have a problem because they won't be around much longer and LeBeau appears to have no "Plan B" when they can't play.

steelz09
10-01-2012, 10:07 AM
Yes, the defense is that bad.

Even when we played the Jets, I wasn't particularly impressed. When Sanchez wasn't sucking, he was torching us with Holmes... in the 1st quarter.

The Jets scored a whopping ZERO points against the 49ers.

aggiebones
10-01-2012, 10:23 AM
Every team goes through problems. This team WILL fix it, like they always do.

Unlike the 49ers, we spent alot of money on offense. We try to have a balanced team with good players on O and D.
The 49ers have opted for D and a good running game.
....49ers still have little hope of a Super Bowl.

How you beat the Jets is irrelevant as long as you do. But can you also beat the other teams you need to get to glory? The Steelers showed they can periodically, while other teams haven't.


Also, today is not tomorrow in the NFL. You think the Cardinals are really going towards some playoff run because they are 4-0. How often does a team start 6-0 or even 8-0 and totally flame out. Good programs rectify problems as they go.

RuthlessBurgher
10-01-2012, 10:44 AM
Okay...we lost games to the Broncos and Raiders. Because the Broncos destroyed the Raiders yesterday, I'm supposed to feel worse somehow? What if the Raiders destroyed the Broncos instead...would that be just as embarrassing to the D as well? Is it somehow supposed to be better if the two teams that we lost to had a relatively evenly matched game? I don't get it. The NFL is a completely different monster week-to-week. How teams do against other teams in any given week doesn't mean much when compared to when you play them when you factor in injuries, where the games are played, how your strengths match up with their weakness and vice versa, etc.

NJ-STEELER
10-01-2012, 11:01 AM
I read a stat that in the other 3 games the raiders played they haven't totaled what they scored against the steelers

msp26505
10-01-2012, 11:08 AM
Okay...we lost games to the Broncos and Raiders. Because the Broncos destroyed the Raiders yesterday, I'm supposed to feel worse somehow? What if the Raiders destroyed the Broncos instead...would that be just as embarrassing to the D as well? Is it somehow supposed to be better if the two teams that we lost to had a relatively evenly matched game? I don't get it. The NFL is a completely different monster week-to-week. How teams do against other teams in any given week doesn't mean much when compared to when you play them when you factor in injuries, where the games are played, how your strengths match up with their weakness and vice versa, etc.

How much fun is that, though?

Wouldn't you rather read the EXACT SAME COMPLAINT for the 4,368,271st time that LeBeau is past his prime, that he's stubborn, that we need to change defensive schemes, that we haven't drafted suitable replacements for injured and old players, that we haven't drafted well at all, that the defense should be blamed instead of the offense, blah blah blah...

(BTW, I actually concur with some of that stuff, but on the infrequent occasion when I post, I don't feel the need to voice the EXACT SAME COMPLAINT in every thread.)

feltdizz
10-01-2012, 11:21 AM
How much fun is that, though?

Wouldn't you rather read the EXACT SAME COMPLAINT for the 4,368,271st time that LeBeau is past his prime, that he's stubborn, that we need to change defensive schemes, that we haven't drafted suitable replacements for injured and old players, that we haven't drafted well at all, that the defense should be blamed instead of the offense, blah blah blah...

(BTW, I actually concur with some of that stuff, but on the infrequent occasion when I post, I don't feel the need to voice the EXACT SAME COMPLAINT in every thread.)

you keep seeing the same complaints because we keep seeing the same thing over and over again...

when every other defense in the league knows how to stop the Raiders but us it's troubling IMO...

I'm still waiting for a DB to break up a pass....

Slapstick
10-01-2012, 11:59 AM
If the D is embarrassed, it is because they played poorly and the game was lost as a result...

I, personally, don't care how other teams perform against each other with the exception of how it affects playoff seedings and the occasional curiosity...

As a Steelers fan, it doesn't matter to me what the Raiders did or against whom, for the most part...and I would hope that the Steelers feel the same way...

Just take care of your own business...

Shoe
10-01-2012, 12:03 PM
I'm still waiting for a DB to break up a pass....

Think of the times we run a blitz (e.g. that one where the ILB's cross)... when the blitz doesn't get home, how many times can you remember the QB throwing an incomplete pass? In other words, when the blitz is picked up (which happens more than you'd like), does our coverage ever step up to make a play? I can't recall.

Oviedo
10-01-2012, 01:20 PM
Every team goes through problems. This team WILL fix it, like they always do.

Unlike the 49ers, we spent alot of money on offense. We try to have a balanced team with good players on O and D.
The 49ers have opted for D and a good running game.
....49ers still have little hope of a Super Bowl.

How you beat the Jets is irrelevant as long as you do. But can you also beat the other teams you need to get to glory? The Steelers showed they can periodically, while other teams haven't.


Also, today is not tomorrow in the NFL. You think the Cardinals are really going towards some playoff run because they are 4-0. How often does a team start 6-0 or even 8-0 and totally flame out. Good programs rectify problems as they go.

"We spent a lot of money of Offense?????" What team are you looking at. All the recent big contracts have gone to defensive players.

Oviedo
10-01-2012, 01:23 PM
you keep seeing the same complaints because we keep seeing the same thing over and over again...

when every other defense in the league knows how to stop the Raiders but us it's troubling IMO...

I'm still waiting for a DB to break up a pass....

Don't introduce facts into the middle of idol worship.

I love how there would be 20 anti-Arians threads or threads complaining about how bad the offense was and how they were hanging the defense out on this site and never a complaint. When we have to address the failings on defense, we hear there is too much of it being discussed. Well IMO given that the defense is the reason we lost two games out of three I think we should be talking about it...a whole bunch.

Ghost
10-01-2012, 01:25 PM
While certainly different teams match up with others better or worse and each week is it's own entity; I believe it's reasonable to be concerned when a team such as the Raiders has looked like one of the worst teams in the entire league (bottom 3 to 5) 3 out of 4 games with the 1 exception being them tearing up the Steelers D as if it was not even on the field. They gave the Steelers D an a$$ whuppin' and they are terrible. It's also a little disconcerting to realize the one solid performance was against a QB who's not even as good as the Steelers' 2nd string QB, and it's not that close.

Let's see what they come up with after having 2 weeks and hopefully a more healthy Troy coming back. Are they taking a realistic view of what kind of talent they really have to put on the field? If they can beat the Eagles and then they have a decent shot at betating the Titans and Bengals, they may still right the ship. I hope it's that scenario because right now, becasue right now, not only are teams not intimidated, they are not even worried. Redskin and Chiefs fans are putting this down as "wins" on their schedules.

Oviedo
10-01-2012, 01:29 PM
While certainly different teams match up with others better or worse and each week is it's own entity; I believe it's reasonable to be concerned when a team such as the Raiders has looked like one of the worst teams in the entire league (bottom 3 to 5) 3 out of 4 games with the 1 exception being them tearing up the Steelers D as if it was not even on the field. They gave the Steelers D an a$$ whuppin' and they are terrible. It's also a little disconcerting to realize the one solid performance was against a QB who's not even as good as the Steelers' 2nd string QB, and it's not that close.

Let's see what they come up with after having 2 weeks and hopefully a more healthy Troy coming back. Are they taking a realistic view of what kind of talent they really have to put on the field? If they can beat the Eagles and then they have a decent shot at betating the Titans and Bengals, they may still right the ship. I hope it's that scenario because right now, becasue right now, not only are teams not intimidated, they are not even worried. Redskin and Chiefs fans are putting this down as "wins" on their schedules.

The talent they are putting on the field is real close to the same players that earned a #1 ranking last year. Last year we all heard of that #1 ranking and why would we change anything. How about because your ROLB had back issues and needed surgery or your SS has been known to have injury issues and they are both over 30?

RuthlessBurgher
10-01-2012, 01:30 PM
Redskin and Chiefs fans are putting this down as "wins" on their schedules.

I HIGHLY doubt this. Unless, of course, they are reading Chicken Little Steelers message boards that have the Steelers finishing 1-15.

virgilbosetti
10-01-2012, 01:40 PM
While certainly different teams match up with others better or worse and each week is it's own entity; I believe it's reasonable to be concerned when a team such as the Raiders has looked like one of the worst teams in the entire league (bottom 3 to 5) 3 out of 4 games with the 1 exception being them tearing up the Steelers D as if it was not even on the field. They gave the Steelers D an a$$ whuppin' and they are terrible. It's also a little disconcerting to realize the one solid performance was against a QB who's not even as good as the Steelers' 2nd string QB, and it's not that close.

Let's see what they come up with after having 2 weeks and hopefully a more healthy Troy coming back. Are they taking a realistic view of what kind of talent they really have to put on the field? If they can beat the Eagles and then they have a decent shot at betating the Titans and Bengals, they may still right the ship. I hope it's that scenario because right now, becasue right now, not only are teams not intimidated, they are not even worried. Redskin and Chiefs fans are putting this down as "wins" on their schedules.
Nice post here ghost. I particularly agree with your statement about having two wks off so let's see what they come up with. Can't say I'm optimistic. Tomlins teams tipically like to repeat the same errors to a fault. Not saying he sucks as a coach. Just stating MO. Hope I'm wrong.

flippy
10-01-2012, 01:52 PM
We just need to find ways to win in the end. A 1 pt victory is as good as a 50 pt victory. There's 3 phases - O, ST, and D. Win the battle in all 3 and squeak out victories. Just get it together over the last couple of games heading into the playoffs.

Here's something to consider about Lebeau's age. In his day, managers were taught a different management style. Lead by fear. Micromanage. Get people to do what you do the way you want to do it.

In the modern era, management is all about managing to strengths. Some people will never be good at some things. So ignore those things. And focus on developing their strengths.

I can think of a few players the Steelers didn't develop their strengths. Best examples is Timmons and Keisel. Timmons was lightning fast, so they beefed him up. Same with Keisel. He was one of the quickest guys his size I've ever seen. So we beefed him up to handle the run. Both were budding superstars in the making. And we asked both to get bigger to handle the run. And as a result they both got slower and less effective. Remember when Keisel was a 3rd down replacement for Kimo. He was a QB pressure/sacking machine. That left when he added some pounds to stop the run and consume blockers. Timmons was lightning fast. I've seen him run by Troy over a short distance to make a tackle. Now he looks like Casey Hampton Jr.

This system makes some guys. And it ruins others. I do wish we'd stop trying to make square pegs round all the time. Since the D is so complex, maybe we should draft D later when we can't mess up a guy with great potential. Unless it's a DB?

Oviedo
10-01-2012, 02:02 PM
We just need to find ways to win in the end. A 1 pt victory is as good as a 50 pt victory. There's 3 phases - O, ST, and D. Win the battle in all 3 and squeak out victories. Just get it together over the last couple of games heading into the playoffs.

Here's something to consider about Lebeau's age. In his day, managers were taught a different management style. Lead by fear. Micromanage. Get people to do what you do the way you want to do it.

In the modern era, management is all about managing to strengths. Some people will never be good at some things. So ignore those things. And focus on developing their strengths.

I can think of a few players the Steelers didn't develop their strengths. Best examples is Timmons and Keisel. Timmons was lightning fast, so they beefed him up. Same with Keisel. He was one of the quickest guys his size I've ever seen. So we beefed him up to handle the run. Both were budding superstars in the making. And we asked both to get bigger to handle the run. And as a result they both got slower and less effective. Remember when Keisel was a 3rd down replacement for Kimo. He was a QB pressure/sacking machine. That left when he added some pounds to stop the run and consume blockers. Timmons was lightning fast. I've seen him run by Troy over a short distance to make a tackle. Now he looks like Casey Hampton Jr.

This system makes some guys. And it ruins others. I do wish we'd stop trying to make square pegs round all the time. Since the D is so complex, maybe we should draft D later when we can't mess up a guy with great potential. Unless it's a DB?

You provide excellent examples of forcing players into a template defense versus adapting the defense to maximize the abilities of the players.

SidSmythe
10-01-2012, 02:06 PM
at the end of the day, I don't put much weight into what happens in September.

Do I have my concerns??? YES!! Absolutely. Just as I did after the Eagles thrashed us in Week 3 a few years back.
But I also remember a few years back the Steelers starting off hot, destroying Brett Favre and the Vikings and then falling off the face of the earth.

When we get into October I will start passing my judgement.

Oviedo
10-01-2012, 02:32 PM
at the end of the day, I don't put much weight into what happens in September.

Do I have my concerns??? YES!! Absolutely. Just as I did after the Eagles thrashed us in Week 3 a few years back.
But I also remember a few years back the Steelers starting off hot, destroying Brett Favre and the Vikings and then falling off the face of the earth.

When we get into October I will start passing my judgement.

Welcome to October 1st

SidSmythe
10-01-2012, 02:48 PM
Welcome to October 1st

I haven't seen them play in October ... I guess we will see this Sunday. But even if they blow out the Eagles, I'm won't be convinced. I'm leaning more toward Holloween

ter1230_4
10-01-2012, 03:20 PM
The Steelers D is currently in a transition stage. Last season was the end of the road for Farrior, A. Smith and Hoke, and Hampton, Keisel, Harrison and Polamalu are in their last season or two. The problem is that none of the new players coming into the D have shown any propensity whatsoever for making splash plays, such as sacking the QB or stepping in front of a receiver for a INT, or punching the ball away from a runner (like the Raiders did last week). The Steelers D may have been ranked #1 last year because it gave up the least yards, but they only had 15 takeaways the entire season. And it hasn't gotten any better so far this year. The Steelers have 3 takeaways after 3 games: a funble by Denver that was forced by Foote with his back to the play, a muffed punt by the Jets, and an INT by the Raiders when their receiver fell down. Not once has the Steelers D made a splash play, like a strip sack. Hood, Heyward, McClendon, Worldis, Carter et al look to be plain vanilla players that are incapable of making splash plays. And that is a huge problem going forward.

virgilbosetti
10-01-2012, 03:48 PM
At times they are getting absolutely blown off the ball. Splash plays? I'd settle for aggressive play......being the first to make contact.....wrapping up...etc. This group is shooting at a moving target. Back to the basics that I'm sure they are at least capable of.

Looking forward to Sunday!!

steelz09
10-01-2012, 04:01 PM
At times they are getting absolutely blown off the ball. Splash plays? I'd settle for aggressive play......being the first to make contact.....wrapping up...etc. This group is shooting at a moving target. Back to the basics that I'm sure they are at least capable of.

Looking forward to Sunday!!

Outside of Polamalu (getting old and often injured) and Harrison (old and injured) we don't have any players capable of splash plays. Actually, Woodley has his days...

I just wish the D would stop with the "taking the blame" talk and simply play better. Ike in Week 1 and Keisel in Week 3 apologizing and taking the blame for the loss. That doesn't make it any better and actually makes it worse especially when it's becoming a trend.

How about just playing better so you don't have to apologize.

Oviedo
10-01-2012, 04:52 PM
Outside of Polamalu (getting old and often injured) and Harrison (old and injured) we don't have any players capable of splash plays. Actually, Woodley has his days...

I just wish the D would stop with the "taking the blame" talk and simply play better. Ike in Week 1 and Keisel in Week 3 apologizing and taking the blame for the loss. That doesn't make it any better and actually makes it worse especially when it's becoming a trend.

How about just playing better so you don't have to apologize.

Great post. Just do it!!! But what is "it?" What exactly are these guys being asked to do? I think that is the $54,000 question. Four or five years ago I would have thought I knew, e.g. attack the QB and play aggressive. I'm not so sure anymore. It just seems like sometimes we are trying to avoid giving up the big play versus being aggressive.

lloydroid
10-01-2012, 05:00 PM
Every team goes through problems. This team WILL fix it, like they always do.

Unlike the 49ers, we spent alot of money on offense. We try to have a balanced team with good players on O and D.
The 49ers have opted for D and a good running game.
....49ers still have little hope of a Super Bowl.

How you beat the Jets is irrelevant as long as you do. But can you also beat the other teams you need to get to glory? The Steelers showed they can periodically, while other teams haven't.


Also, today is not tomorrow in the NFL. You think the Cardinals are really going towards some playoff run because they are 4-0. How often does a team start 6-0 or even 8-0 and totally flame out. Good programs rectify problems as they go.

Are you kidding me? 49ers didn't do anything to address their O? They might have done more than ANYONE at addressing their lack of play makers in the passing game. They sign Randy Moss and Manningham as free agents, just to start. Then they drafted A.J Jenkins, WR, in the 1st round and LaMichael James, RB, in the 2nd - both of whom should give the offense a burst, eventually. So, to say that SF hasn't put any $ into the O is erroneous.

phillyesq
10-01-2012, 05:06 PM
The talent they are putting on the field is real close to the same players that earned a #1 ranking last year. Last year we all heard of that #1 ranking and why would we change anything. How about because your ROLB had back issues and needed surgery or your SS has been known to have injury issues and they are both over 30?

Keisel is a year older. Hampton a year older and coming off of knee surgery. Farrior is gone, replaced by Foote, with no more rotation of the two. Harrison has not played. Troy has missed 2 games, Ryan Clark 1.

Lots of differences from last year to this year.

Oviedo
10-01-2012, 05:19 PM
Keisel is a year older. Hampton a year older and coming off of knee surgery. Farrior is gone, replaced by Foote, with no more rotation of the two. Harrison has not played. Troy has missed 2 games, Ryan Clark 1.

Lots of differences from last year to this year.

And IMO therein lies my findamental issue with our 3-4 defense. You correctly identify where we have players on the downward turn of their careers and we are still waiting to see whether our conversion projects are going to pan out, e.g. Worilds and Carter from DE to OLB, Hood from DT to DE. Imagine if these players had just come in and played their natural positions from Day 1. Would we be still trying to determine if the "conversions" would work?

NorthCoast
10-01-2012, 07:04 PM
Been watching a lot of NFL football this season (just got NFL Network and Redzone. Redzone is the only way to watch games when not the Steelers!). I have to agree with some posters, the defenses that Atlanta, San Fran, and Arizona are putting on the field are light years from the Steelers at this point. Those defenses are attacking, strong, beating the OLs, jamming the big WRs, and causing QB headaches. That is how they are winning. The Steelers this season are noticeably slower, weak at the line, out of position, and generally chasing plays down the field.
I don't totally fault LeBeau. Give him 3 or 4 top defensive picks at the front of the draft (ala, San Fran) and I would bet he could put together something pretty awesome. But right now, the Steelers are definitely struggling with average talent at key positions and that doesn't bode well for a winning season.

steelz09
10-01-2012, 07:26 PM
Are you kidding me? 49ers didn't do anything to address their O? They might have done more than ANYONE at addressing their lack of play makers in the passing game. They sign Randy Moss and Manningham as free agents, just to start. Then they drafted A.J Jenkins, WR, in the 1st round and LaMichael James, RB, in the 2nd - both of whom should give the offense a burst, eventually. So, to say that SF hasn't put any $ into the O is erroneous.

Absolutely right... Although injured, they also signed Brandon Jacobs. And don't forget Crabtree and Vernon Davis. Crabtee was a 10th overall pick and Davis was 6th overall.

They are loaded on both sides of the ball.

DukieBoy
10-01-2012, 07:32 PM
The Eagles attacking press defense was impressive last night; they are aggressive on about every play. Hoping for a great game plan, or they will give our offense fits.

Slapstick
10-01-2012, 08:12 PM
Absolutely right... Although injured, they also signed Brandon Jacobs. And don't forget Crabtree and Vernon Davis. Crabtee was a 10th overall pick and Davis was 6th overall.

They are loaded on both sides of the ball.

That can happen when you are a poor-to-mediocre franchise for a decade or so...

NJ-STEELER
10-01-2012, 11:45 PM
Absolutely right... Although injured, they also signed Brandon Jacobs. And don't forget Crabtree and Vernon Davis. Crabtee was a 10th overall pick and Davis was 6th overall.

They are loaded on both sides of the ball.

half the league is more "loaded" on the offensive sde of the ball then us

while i like our guys, they're 3rd and 6th round draft picks. and while ben has made the most out of them, they have their limitations

phillyesq
10-02-2012, 08:28 AM
And IMO therein lies my findamental issue with our 3-4 defense. You correctly identify where we have players on the downward turn of their careers and we are still waiting to see whether our conversion projects are going to pan out, e.g. Worilds and Carter from DE to OLB, Hood from DT to DE. Imagine if these players had just come in and played their natural positions from Day 1. Would we be still trying to determine if the "conversions" would work?

Therein lies the problem with an older team. Go back and look at the defensive lineman picked in the first round in the past few years. How many made an impact as rookies? There is a period of adjustment with those players as well.

If we played a 4-3, would Worilds suddenly not get injured all the time? Would Carter be stronger, a better pass rusher or better against the run? Would Ziggy Hood not get blown off the ball repeatedly? This is a talent issue, not a system issue.

Look at Woodley. He flashed as a rookie and played year 2. Troy was awful as a rookie, improved in year 2, and was a stud by year 3. Hampton started as a rookie. The guys who have been impact players on the defense have typically shown lots of potential early in their careers. Hood did, but he has regressed. The bottom line is that this is a talent issue. It doesn't take anybody into their 4th season to learn how to play DE in this system. Hood has been here long enough that there are no excuses.

Ghost
10-02-2012, 08:37 AM
It doesn't take anybody into their 4th season to learn how to play DE in this system. Hood has been here long enough that there are no excuses. :Agree :Clap:HeadBanger

Oviedo
10-02-2012, 08:40 AM
Therein lies the problem with an older team. Go back and look at the defensive lineman picked in the first round in the past few years. How many made an impact as rookies? There is a period of adjustment with those players as well.

If we played a 4-3, would Worilds suddenly not get injured all the time? Would Carter be stronger, a better pass rusher or better against the run? Would Ziggy Hood not get blown off the ball repeatedly? This is a talent issue, not a system issue.

Look at Woodley. He flashed as a rookie and played year 2. Troy was awful as a rookie, improved in year 2, and was a stud by year 3. Hampton started as a rookie. The guys who have been impact players on the defense have typically shown lots of potential early in their careers. Hood did, but he has regressed. The bottom line is that this is a talent issue. It doesn't take anybody into their 4th season to learn how to play DE in this system. Hood has been here long enough that there are no excuses.

You keep citing the DL taken in Round 1. They all don't have to be Round 1 picks and no one ever indicated so. Is their failure rate really any worse than ours converting DTs to DEs or DEs to OLBs? I don't think so. There is antural attrition just going to the NFL. It doesn't hit the Defensive line any more than any other position and wouldn't we deal with the same issue with our NTs and DE's (former DTs)

For every Woodley you cite I can cite a Jason Pierre Paul who has far surpassed Woodley stepping in and playing the position he has alsways played. I bet that there are more kids coming out and playing their normal 4-3 positions making contributions earlier while ours "learn" the defense.

phillyesq
10-02-2012, 10:47 AM
You keep citing the DL taken in Round 1. They all don't have to be Round 1 picks and no one ever indicated so. Is their failure rate really any worse than ours converting DTs to DEs or DEs to OLBs? I don't think so. There is antural attrition just going to the NFL. It doesn't hit the Defensive line any more than any other position and wouldn't we deal with the same issue with our NTs and DE's (former DTs)

For every Woodley you cite I can cite a Jason Pierre Paul who has far surpassed Woodley stepping in and playing the position he has alsways played. I bet that there are more kids coming out and playing their normal 4-3 positions making contributions earlier while ours "learn" the defense.

I cite round 1 because, despite the amount of time I spend on here, I do have an actual job and don't have the time to analzye every player selected by every team. :p

In any event, your speculation regarding the 4-3 is I think largely a product of thinking the grass is always greener. Look at the draft in which Ziggy Hood was taken. The early contributors included Orakpo, Cushing and Clay Matthews. Cannot recall if Texans were 3-4 at the time, but Orako was converted from DE and Matthews moved to 3-4 OLB. In the same draft, the Steelers took Ziggy Hood.

It's a talent issue, not a system issue.

Oviedo
10-02-2012, 12:45 PM
I cite round 1 because, despite the amount of time I spend on here, I do have an actual job and don't have the time to analzye every player selected by every team. :p

In any event, your speculation regarding the 4-3 is I think largely a product of thinking the grass is always greener. Look at the draft in which Ziggy Hood was taken. The early contributors included Orakpo, Cushing and Clay Matthews. Cannot recall if Texans were 3-4 at the time, but Orako was converted from DE and Matthews moved to 3-4 OLB. In the same draft, the Steelers took Ziggy Hood.

It's a talent issue, not a system issue.

You mis the point that is central to why this is an issue for me---the system is the source of the talent issue!!!! The system should maximize the talent you have not what you wish you had. Players should be put into the position to do what they do best not a tempalte that the coach has. We won't agree with that but that has always been where I have come from on this issue.

That is why I think eliminating the "conversion" puts players in the best position to be successful sooner. The 3-4 worked for us when we were on of just ba few of the teams who went after the "tweener" DEs and had the time to convert them. Since half the league wants the same thing there is no longer as deep a talent pool available nor is our margin for error as great.

Other than Woodley, and IMO the jury is still out on him because of inconsistency, who was the last DE we successfully converted to a standout OLB that is critical to our 3-4 being successful? Porter? That was a long time ago! IMO we got extremely lucky with Harrison which delayed the problem we have at OLB. He could just as easily be a Raven now if they didn't cut him like we did a few times. However, it just delayed us acknowledging that these conversions aren't working and have a low probability of success.

phillyesq
10-02-2012, 01:10 PM
You mis the point that is central to why this is an issue for me---the system is the source of the talent issue!!!! The system should maximize the talent you have not what you wish you had. Players should be put into the position to do what they do best not a tempalte that the coach has. We won't agree with that but that has always been where I have come from on this issue.

That is why I think eliminating the "conversion" puts players in the best position to be successful sooner. The 3-4 worked for us when we were on of just ba few of the teams who went after the "tweener" DEs and had the time to convert them. Since half the league wants the same thing there is no longer as deep a talent pool available nor is our margin for error as great.

Other than Woodley, and IMO the jury is still out on him because of inconsistency, who was the last DE we successfully converted to a standout OLB that is critical to our 3-4 being successful? Porter? That was a long time ago! IMO we got extremely lucky with Harrison which delayed the problem we have at OLB. He could just as easily be a Raven now if they didn't cut him like we did a few times. However, it just delayed us acknowledging that these conversions aren't working and have a low probability of success.

Since Woodley, the only draft picks that the Steelers have attempted to convert are Bruce Davis, Worilds and Chris Carter (not sure if he was an OLB or a DE in college). Bruce Davis was terrible, but he was picked because of his pass rush ability. He could have easily been picked as a DE and would equally terrible. Same goes for Worilds and Carter. They are either talented or not, regardless of the system in which they play.

Orakpo and Clay Matthews did just fine stepping in as 3-4 OLBs. The issue isn't conversion; the issue is talent. The system is not the source of the talent issue. The lack of talent is the source of the talent issue.

steelz09
10-02-2012, 01:13 PM
You mis the point that is central to why this is an issue for me---the system is the source of the talent issue!!!! The system should maximize the talent you have not what you wish you had. Players should be put into the position to do what they do best not a tempalte that the coach has. We won't agree with that but that has always been where I have come from on this issue.

That is why I think eliminating the "conversion" puts players in the best position to be successful sooner. The 3-4 worked for us when we were on of just ba few of the teams who went after the "tweener" DEs and had the time to convert them. Since half the league wants the same thing there is no longer as deep a talent pool available nor is our margin for error as great.

Other than Woodley, and IMO the jury is still out on him because of inconsistency, who was the last DE we successfully converted to a standout OLB that is critical to our 3-4 being successful? Porter? That was a long time ago! IMO we got extremely lucky with Harrison which delayed the problem we have at OLB. He could just as easily be a Raven now if they didn't cut him like we did a few times. However, it just delayed us acknowledging that these conversions aren't working and have a low probability of success.

I don't think it's the 3-4 system. I think it's the drafting and the player development particularly on defense and specifically the front 7. I don't care if we go to a 4-3 or stay 3-4 to be honest.

It seems to me that Tomlin is still in love with his Tampa-2 defense and he's been drafting guys that fit that system and not a 3-4 system. It's on Colbert and Tomlin. Can certain players convert? Yes, absolutely but not all players can.. Like I said, I don't care if we make a switch but if that has been the plan all along then make the switch already.

steelz09
10-02-2012, 01:15 PM
Since Woodley, the only draft picks that the Steelers have attempted to convert are Bruce Davis, Worilds and Chris Carter (not sure if he was an OLB or a DE in college). Bruce Davis was terrible, but he was picked because of his pass rush ability. He could have easily been picked as a DE and would equally terrible. Same goes for Worilds and Carter. They are either talented or not, regardless of the system in which they play.

Orakpo and Clay Matthews did just fine stepping in as 3-4 OLBs. The issue isn't conversion; the issue is talent. The system is not the source of the talent issue. The lack of talent is the source of the talent issue.

So Cal ran a 3-4 at times under Pete Carroll. I'm not sure if they do that anymore. I know Alabama will run a 3-4 as well.

RuthlessBurgher
10-02-2012, 01:42 PM
half the league is more "loaded" on the offensive sde of the ball then us

while i like our guys, they're 3rd and 6th round draft picks. and while ben has made the most out of them, they have their limitations

I dunno...the only pairs that I would put ahead of Wallace-Brown right now would be Roddy-Julio, Nicks-Cruz (when Nicks is healthy) and maybe Jennings-Nelson (when Jennings is healthy). I like Wallace Brown better than Austin-Bryant and Jackson-Maclin. Megatron and Fitz would obvious enter the discussion if either got a legit WR opposite them.

Oviedo
10-02-2012, 02:01 PM
I dunno...the only pairs that I would put ahead of Wallace-Brown right now would be Roddy-Julio, Nicks-Cruz (when Nicks is healthy) and maybe Jennings-Nelson (when Jennings is healthy). I like Wallace Brown better than Austin-Bryant and Jackson-Maclin. Megatron and Fitz would obvious enter the discussion if either got a legit WR opposite them.

I agree, Wallace-Brown is a Top 5 combo in the NFL right now and when you add Sanders and Cotchery as the #3 and #4 I think that takes us up to Top 3.

phillyesq
10-02-2012, 03:34 PM
I agree, Wallace-Brown is a Top 5 combo in the NFL right now and when you add Sanders and Cotchery as the #3 and #4 I think that takes us up to Top 3.

This is one on which we agree.

:Cheers

NJ-STEELER
10-02-2012, 03:40 PM
Wasnt Matthews a LB at USC?

him and Cushing

Oviedo
10-02-2012, 04:19 PM
This is one on which we agree.

:Cheers

It's either the start of a beautiful relationship or a blind squirrel finding a nut?????;)

RuthlessBurgher
10-02-2012, 04:26 PM
It's either the start of a beautiful relationship or a blind squirrel finding a nut?????;)

Which one of you is the blind squirrel, and which one of you is nuts? :p

NJ-STEELER
10-02-2012, 05:11 PM
How many people on here argued that Wallace is a one trick pony? Seemed like half the fanbase. How could we call them a top 5 combo then??

I like them but they're not even top 10 IMO. Neither one is that true #1 WR with prototypical size and speed.

Dont get me wrong we hit big with both of them. Large part cause Ben being Ben. I was just referring to the assets teams spend on the WR position. We lucked out with a 3rd and 6th rd pick.

Look at even some average teams. Tennessee has spent 2 #1s on WR. Same w/ Arizona (one being a 3 overall)
atlanta already havibng a #1 WR traded way up to grab Julio etc etc

Eddie Spaghetti
10-02-2012, 05:16 PM
How many people on here argued that Wallace is a one trick pony. Seemed like half the fanbase. How could we call them a top 5 combo then??

yeah, that may be hard to squeeze into ones agenda.

I think they are top 5 for sure, mainly because their talents perfectly complement each other.

NJ-STEELER
10-02-2012, 05:27 PM
I agree they compliment each other well and HAVE ARGUED TO SIGN BOTH

Eddie Spaghetti
10-02-2012, 05:31 PM
I have as well.

it seems crystal clear they need both.

hopefully some kind of deal can be reached after the season, even if we have to tag him to get it done.

Oviedo
10-02-2012, 05:33 PM
I agree they compliment each other well and HAVE ARGUED TO SIGN BOTH

That is totally up to Wallace. He has to make the decision that he wants to be here. He could have already made the decision to stay if he wanted to. He had a great offer.

I still beieve that if Wallace wants significantly more than he was already offered he won't be staying here. IMO Brown is the more complete better WR in terms of skills but he and Wallace work well together because they do compliment each other to include Brown being the complete team player and Wallace not:stirpot

Eddie Spaghetti
10-02-2012, 05:39 PM
to dubs point though, wallace gets into the endzone and that is an area that brown must improve on. And what also makes wallace the more complete receiver, IMO. He catches his fair share of slants and side outs, he isn't just running upfield as fast as he can as some here seem to believe.

phillyesq
10-02-2012, 05:41 PM
Which one of you is the blind squirrel, and which one of you is nuts? :p

That is an excellent question and I'm almost fearful to see how others would respond, especially if you were to ask Mrs. Phillyesq...

Slapstick
10-02-2012, 08:58 PM
So Cal ran a 3-4 at times under Pete Carroll. I'm not sure if they do that anymore. I know Alabama will run a 3-4 as well.

USC ran the same 4-3 D that Carroll runs in Seattle now...it looks like a 3-4 because it uses a stand-up DE called an "elephant" or a "leo" that he learned from George Seifert at San Fran...

fordfixer
10-02-2012, 09:55 PM
That is an excellent question and I'm almost fearful to see how others would respond, especially if you were to ask Mrs. Phillyesq...
Well Philly has a sq in his name already so that makes him the squirrel now if we can just keep him off of Ovid's nut.............I mean that would make Ovi nuts:-) :-) :-)

RuthlessBurgher
10-03-2012, 01:15 PM
Well Philly has a sq in his name already so that makes him the squirrel now if we can just keep him off of Ovid's nut.............I mean that would make Ovi nuts

He's also a lawyer, and justice is blind...:cool: