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AzStillers1989
09-25-2012, 12:39 AM
WOW..... talk about a BULLSH*T call .....

skyhawk
09-25-2012, 12:44 AM
And I have seahwaks fan friends here still bringing up 2005 SB and that they deserve this.

SDSteel1
09-25-2012, 12:44 AM
Was it really a bad call? Or was it a judgement call? They reviewed it, with replay officials that aren't replacements.

So was it a bad call?

To answer that question, officials referred to the NFL Rulebook, specifically rule 8, section 1, article 3, item 5 (there are a lot of rules in that book; it's about 10 times as long as the United States Constitution):

If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.

In less-Hochulian terms: You know the "tie goes to the runner" rule in baseball? Simultaneous catch is the football equivalent. If two guys come down with the ball, somebody has to be credited with a catch and it might as well be the team that already has possession. It's a rule of convenience and common sense.

skyhawk
09-25-2012, 12:47 AM
I didn't see Tate have ANY possession of the ball. He had his hand stuck in Jennings breadbasket. Is that possession?

so your second sentence is what happened. INT

SDSteel1
09-25-2012, 12:53 AM
The receiver looked like he had 2 hands on the ball, and he held on to it, whether it was in Jennings bread basket or not. Maybe Jennings should have done what you are taught to do and knock the ball down.

skyhawk
09-25-2012, 12:54 AM
Not to mention they missed a blatant offensive PI

SDSteel1
09-25-2012, 12:56 AM
That happens on every hail mary and is never called.

skyhawk
09-25-2012, 01:02 AM
yep's. never called.

feltdizz
09-25-2012, 09:44 AM
the more I think about it I think the call was 50/50... Jennings shouldn't have tried to catch the ball.

I also think we are so used to seeing the GB's and Pat's of the NFL get the calls...

I'll never forget the end of the San Diego game we won 11 to 10 when Troy clearly scored on the last play...

and what about a "football move"..."tuck rule"... "The GB TD" that clearly wasn't a TD vs the Giants last year in the regular season?

aggiebones
09-25-2012, 10:16 AM
I have not complained about the refs since I don't think the regular ones deserve all that they are begging to get. But this is kinda ugly.

Tate had one of the worst 2 arm extending push offs EVER. Then wrapped his arms around the DB that clearly intercepted the ball and they rewarded Tate with the TD. Tate was behind the DB who was clutching the ball to his chest. The DB was also the first one to grab the ball in air bringing it to himself.
There was no judgment on this. It was obvious. Not sure what the refs saw. There was no tie on the catch.

Djfan
09-25-2012, 10:30 AM
The NFL is due to release it's "We are right and you all are wrong" report on it soon. Should be interesting.

The NFL is in the toilet. It's hard to watch. I pay half attention to Steelers games and none to non-Steelers games.

papillon
09-25-2012, 11:11 AM
The NFL is due to release it's "We are right and you all are wrong" report on it soon. Should be interesting.

The NFL is in the toilet. It's hard to watch. I pay half attention to Steelers games and none to non-Steelers games.

The Steelers right now don't seem to have any answers to anything that is happening to them. They are being let down by players that were drafted to replace reliable veteran players, it's not like the Steelers are trying to replace HOF players. Smith and Farrior were excellent players, but no one is mistaking them for HOF, the players drafted to replace them have been average at best. I'm with you on non-Steeler games, I don't even watch them, I missed last night's fiasco because I was watching Harry Potter and the Sorcerers Stone that movie is only 10-12 years old?

I still enjoy Steeler football and wish they were playing this weekend; I hate going into the bye week with a loss.

Pappy

NW Steeler
09-25-2012, 11:21 AM
Just unbelievable that the Seahag fans immediately brought up the SB loss. I would actually casually root for the Hawks occasionally since I live in Washington, but their continued bitching and blaming is so irritating that it just makes me want to see them lose every game.

SteelBucks
09-25-2012, 11:25 AM
wow..... Talk about a bullsh*t call .....

Free Ed Hoculi !!!

RuthlessBurgher
09-25-2012, 01:42 PM
They reviewed it, with replay officials that aren't replacements.

All the non-replacement replay official up in the box does is review every touchdown and turnover. If it is in any way questionable, he buzzes down to the referee on the field to take another look at it under the hood. The ultimate call is on the shoulder of the on-field referee (a replacement ref), not the non-replacement replay official up in the box.

Terrible Towlie
09-25-2012, 03:32 PM
I have not complained about the refs since I don't think the regular ones deserve all that they are begging to get. But this is kinda ugly.

Tate had one of the worst 2 arm extending push offs EVER. Then wrapped his arms around the DB that clearly intercepted the ball and they rewarded Tate with the TD. Tate was behind the DB who was clutching the ball to his chest. The DB was also the first one to grab the ball in air bringing it to himself.
There was no judgment on this. It was obvious. Not sure what the refs saw. There was no tie on the catch.


Your absolutely right. Jennings had 100% control of the ball, there's no controversy about it. Now theres stories coming out that some of these officials were fired from the lingerie league because they wasn't good enough. This is ridiculous. Imagine if we lose a game similar to that. Ugh!

RuthlessBurgher
09-25-2012, 04:27 PM
Now theres stories coming out that some of these officials were fired from the lingerie league because they wasn't good enough.

Perhaps they weren't focusing on the ball because they were distracted by...ummm...tight ends. ;)

hawaiiansteel
09-25-2012, 05:04 PM
http://www.empowernetwork.com/adrianfrank/files/2012/09/Toucheption1.jpg

Terrible Towlie
09-25-2012, 07:16 PM
Perhaps they weren't focusing on the ball because they were distracted by...ummm...tight ends. ;)


Haha. Didn't think about it that way.

hawaiiansteel
09-25-2012, 08:05 PM
http://forums.steelersfever.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1559&d=1348614604

lloydroid
09-25-2012, 08:10 PM
Was it really a bad call? Or was it a judgement call? They reviewed it, with replay officials that aren't replacements.

So was it a bad call?

To answer that question, officials referred to the NFL Rulebook, specifically rule 8, section 1, article 3, item 5 (there are a lot of rules in that book; it's about 10 times as long as the United States Constitution):

If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.

In less-Hochulian terms: You know the "tie goes to the runner" rule in baseball? Simultaneous catch is the football equivalent. If two guys come down with the ball, somebody has to be credited with a catch and it might as well be the team that already has possession. It's a rule of convenience and common sense.

No way was that simultaneous possession. The Packer clearly had the ball to his chest when his feet the ground and Tate was only touching his arm and just part of the ball. They F-d this up bad.

hawaiiansteel
09-25-2012, 08:20 PM
No way was that simultaneous possession. The Packer clearly had the ball to his chest when his feet the ground and Tate was only touching his arm and just part of the ball. They F-d this up bad.

:Agree

I can't believe the replay official didn't overturn that call, at no time during the play did Tate have two hands on the ball whereas the Packers DB was clutching the ball with both hands to his chest.

Terrible Towlie
09-25-2012, 08:20 PM
What I don't get is why there are some plays that are not reviewable. It's ridiculous. If they are going to have video replay have it in every aspect of the game. Why does certain situations (judgments, etc) not reviewable? If instant replay can prove something why not use it?

Yes, the smart football move would have been for him to knock the ball away and we wouldn't be talking about this. However, he didn't but he made the play. The referees ruled wrong. Instant Replay showed he intercepted the ball, so change the ruling on the field. It's ridiculous that stipulations, etc. say, oh that's not reviewable. Any reasonable person would look at it and say............."Dude, that's definitely an interception".

NorthCoast
09-25-2012, 10:15 PM
What is not a rumor is the Vegas take on that play swung to the house's favor by almost $250 million dollars. Enough to make one wonder....

DBR96A
09-25-2012, 11:09 PM
If the Packers didn't want to get ****ed by the refs, then maybe that magnificent, cerebral, All-Universe QB of theirs should have helped them score more than 12 points.

Oh yeah, they're mentally soft (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066348/article/tj-lang-packers-talked-serious-actions-on-flight-home?campaign=Twitter_atl) too. They're the Ravens of the NFC: strutting popinjays when they win, and helpless victims when they lose. **** 'em.

SDSteel1
09-26-2012, 12:36 AM
By NFL rule, the play was called correctly. It doesn't say if one guy has more possesion than the other, it doesn't say if one guy only had one hand on it in the air, it says if 2 players both have possesion it's the offense's ball. Both players had their hands on the ball and when that occurs it's the offenses ball by rule. Now don't get me wrong, the rules in the NFL are screwed up, and there are way too many of them and many don't use common sense, but they got this one right according to the rule.

hawaiiansteel
09-26-2012, 12:41 AM
if the Packers DB had been the WR, it would have been called a TD...

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1427857/refss.gif

SDSteel1
09-26-2012, 12:43 AM
if the Packers DB had been the WR, it would have been called a TD...

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1427857/refss.gif

Thanks for proving my point, when it was said and done both guys held the ball, the video shows it quite clearly. The right call was made based on the rule.

Slapstick
09-26-2012, 06:35 AM
Thanks for proving my point, when it was said and done both guys held the ball, the video shows it quite clearly. The right call was made based on the rule.

No, you're wrong.

In the NFL, a receiver has to maintain control of the football while going to the ground...Golden Tate had no more control of that football than I did...

You're wrong and worse, the replacement officials got it clearly wrong as well...

SDSteel1
09-26-2012, 08:56 AM
No, you're wrong.

In the NFL, a receiver has to maintain control of the football while going to the ground...Golden Tate had no more control of that football than I did...

You're wrong and worse, the replacement officials got it clearly wrong as well...

You don't know the rules, what exactly does going to the ground mean?, and the video shows that both players have possesion. Maybe you don't understand possesion.

Slapstick
09-26-2012, 09:03 AM
You don't know the rules, what exactly does going to the ground mean?, and the video shows that both players have possesion. Maybe you don't understand possesion.

I do. The video shows the Packer DB with possession and Golden Tate putting his hands on the ball after the fact...

This is the rule:

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/forwardpass


The player who first controls and continues to maintain control of a pass will be awarded the ball even though his opponent later establishes joint control of the ball.

This is what happened and the replacement officials ignored that rule.

SDSteel1
09-26-2012, 09:14 AM
I do. The video shows the Packer DB with possession and Golden Tate putting his hands on the ball after the fact...

This is the rule:

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/forwardpass


This is what happened and the replacement officials ignored that rule.

The problem is it's subjective, because it looks to me like Tate controls the ball with one hand before Jennings, also Tate is down on his back with ball in hands. So you contend that Tate never had any possesion of the ball ever?

fordfixer
09-26-2012, 10:17 AM
Lingerie Football League commissioner mocks NFL for its low officiating standardsTue, Sep 25, 2012 9:57 AM EDT
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl---lingerie-football-league-commissioner-mocks-nfl-for-its-low-officiating-standards.html




There is a pro football commissioner who's unafraid to blow the whistle on underperforming refs.
There is a head of an American football league who has fired an officiating crew because he felt the integrity of his sport was at stake.

There is a pigskin boss who was willing to bite the bullet and admit he made a mistake.
His name is Mitch Mortaza. He is the commissioner of the Lingerie Football League. And he feels the NFL has lowered its standards.
Mortaza was surprised to learn a referee he says he dismissed for poor performance, Craig Ochoa, had been picked up by the NFL and placed into the NFL's marquee Hall of Fame game. Ochoa has not served in a regular-season game so far, but he remains with the NFL as an alternate. And Mortaza just can't get over it.
"It was a bit of a shock to see guys that couldn't officiate in our league were officiating in the NFL," Mortaza says.


You may be surprised to learn Mortaza actually cares about the officiating in his league. Not many fans paying to see the Los Angeles Temptation and the Vegas Sin are going to fume about a blown call. It's safe to say the majority of the Lingerie Football League's fans want laundry on the field, but not the orange, flag-sized kind.
But Mortaza becomes indignant when he speaks of his decision to get rid of an entire officiating crew, which included Ochoa.
"They were hurting our overall broadcast caliber," Mortaza says. "And if it's opening up our players for potential injury, those things raise red flags here. Is it hurting overall credibility? When either of those two things are compromised, it's time to start thinking about parting ways."

And parting ways is what Mortaza decided to do. "The entire crew was released due to several poorly called games which included missed calls, poor judgment and poor presentation for broadcast," Mortaza says. The NFL disputes this, as it did when ProFootballTalk.com asked the league in August about Ochoa's background in the Lingerie Football League (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/07/pereira-says-nfl-is-embellishing-the-credentials-of-replacement-officials/). "He said that is not true," NFL spokesman Greg Aiello wrote in an email, referring to Ochoa. "He was not dismissed by that league."
An email to Ochoa was not returned.

Mortaza was so upset after Monday night's debacle in Seattle that he even released a statement (http://deadspin.com/5946112/), published by Deadspin saying his league had dispatched "a couple crews," which he says are now "apparently" in the NFL. "We felt it was only fair," Mortaza wrote, "that NFL fans knew the truth as to who are officiating these games."
The conclusion here is not that Mitch Mortaza is a bastion of integrity. Nor is the takeaway that Ochoa is a blight on football. (Ochoa actually has a long career of officiating at many levels of the game.) The issue is that the head of the Lingerie Football League is a diehard Redskins fan who is, like everyone else, taken aback by the best football league in the world putting an inferior product on the field. How could the NFL actually think this is OK when the head of the LFL doesn't?


Mortaza is aware that his league is "behind the eight ball" when it comes to the credibility of the product on the field. Let's face it, how many people watch his players for the football? (How many even care that a football is used in the game?) But Mortaza's response is not to look the other way but to pay extra attention to who is running the game. "We comb colleges and Arena football," he says. "We hire all the people that test best. We do background checks. We get a ton of people that want to referee but seldom are they qualified."
And when a referee crew is not up to snuff, at least in Mortaza's eyes, it gets dismissed. Simple as that.
When Apple, the most valuable company in the world, has a defective part, it corrects the mistake. But when the NFL has substandard personnel, it does nothing. Of course "everyone makes mistakes," but a lot of these mistakes are correctable. There's no reason the 49ers should have been allowed extra challenges (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/jim-harbaugh-cons-replacement-refs-two-extra-challenges-014552673--nfl.html) on Sunday. There's no reason the Titans should have been allowed extra yards after a personal foul. And there's no reason the last play of "Monday Night Football" couldn't have been overturned. These weren't snap judgments like a pass interference call. There was plenty of time for deliberation, calls made to the replay booth and adjustment. The NFL is telling us to believe in something that simply isn't believable. And "us" includes everyone from coaches to players to the head of a football league known for skin and silicone. If the head of a lingerie football league thinks the NFL needs to raise its standards, something is terribly wrong.


And to buy into what's happening every week on the field, well, to quote an oft-used phrase from the NFL's own bleachers: You gotta be blind.

Slapstick
09-26-2012, 10:29 AM
The problem is it's subjective, because it looks to me like Tate controls the ball with one hand before Jennings, also Tate is down on his back with ball in hands. So you contend that Tate never had any possesion of the ball ever?

Jennings had possession of the ball. Afterward, Tate established joint possession. Per the rule, Jennings should have been awarded the INT because he first established possession and maintained control despite Tate's joint possession later...

feltdizz
09-26-2012, 10:53 AM
In slow motion Tate has a hand inside of Jennings when the ball is coming down.. IMO it still looked like Jennings had "possession" first but this is why you knock the pass down instead of trying to catch it....

RuthlessBurgher
09-26-2012, 01:59 PM
Looks like we may finally have some progress, ladies and gentlemen...it's about freaking time...


Sources: Ref lockout could end soon
Updated: September 26, 2012, 12:13 PM ET
By Chris Mortensen | ESPN

The NFL and the NFL Referees Association made enough progress in negotiations Tuesday night that the possibility of the locked-out officials returning in time to work this week's games has been discussed, according to sources on both sides.

An agreement in principle is at hand, according to one source familiar to talks, although NFL owners have postured with a "no more compromise" stance.

Although league sources said it would take a week to get the locked-out officials on the field, the NFLRA says its 121 referees have been trained on the new rules implemented last season, have already passed physicals or are prepared to pass physicals immediately. New official game uniforms designed by Nike are "hardly an obstacle," according to a source.

Both sides have made concessions on previous sticking points such as a taxi squad of 21 new officials and pension plans that sources say the final meaningful hurdle is, as one source said, "about a little more money."

While league sources say owners who participated in a conference call with commissioner Roger Goodell during Tuesday's talks had instructed the negotiating team to set a firm barrier for the financial settlement, the NFLRA is prepared to accept a new agreement primarily in the form of a "ratification bonus," which would compensate its 121-member union for concessions it is willing to make.

The NFLRA and the league have all but agreed on developing a 21-member "taxi squad" that Goodell has pushed, but not at the financial cost of the union members.

The NFLRA, citing that it once utilized the now-defunct NFL Europe as a training ground of prospective officials, is willing to train 21 officials from the major college ranks by including them in offseason seminars as well as incorporate them in training camp work.

The NFLRA would not unionize those officials and would want them compensated by the league if "they are brought up from the minors" to work a regular-season game.

Goodell has wanted the power to "bench" officials who underperform or are downgraded during the season. The NFLRA contends the league already has that ability because there are always between one and four crews that sit home each week and would be more qualified to substitute in such a scenario.

The NFLRA also wants to form an "expert committee" that would be major contributors to the league's stated goal to improve officiating. Under this proposal, the committee would be comprised of some of the top retired officials and supervisors of major college conferences who had served as NFL officials.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8427652/locked-nfl-referees-return-early-week-sources

fordfixer
09-26-2012, 02:59 PM
Looks like we may finally have some progress, ladies and gentlemen...it's about freaking time...



http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8427652/locked-nfl-referees-return-early-week-sources

:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap I can,t believe I'm saying this but I hope the real Ref's are back soon

fordfixer
09-26-2012, 03:48 PM
http://youtu.be/AzPBcCF9yKc

NorthCoast
09-26-2012, 06:59 PM
:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap I can,t believe I'm saying this but I hope the real Ref's are back soon

Not me. I liked the controversy and it made games interesting to watch, instead of the regulars throwing a flag on every other play and reciting some rule. And it didn't cost the Steelers any games anyhow.

And at least we could count on the subs to not make up rules as they go along, like the regular refs did, ala "tuck rule", and other obscure situations.

fordfixer
09-26-2012, 07:36 PM
Complaining NFL fans need to show unhappiness over officiating by tuning out games
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--complaining-nfl-fans-need-to-show-unhappiness-over-officiating-by-tuning-out-games.html

So you hate the idea of replacement refs ruining your precious games and the "greedy billionaire" owners who have forced you to watch a bastardized version of it?

Here's my reaction to your whining: Until you decide to stop watching the games, zip it.

Now, there is some relief in sight after progress was made Tuesday night and early Wednesday. One NFL owner told Yahoo! Sports that he could see a settlement with the NFL Referees Association to end the lockout by the end of this week or next. NFL Network reported that the league and the referees' association bridged the gap on the addition of "developmental" refs. It's basically 21 additional refs to be brought in to be available as other refs decline in performance.

That leaves the pension issue as the last major stumbling block. In short, what's actually happening on the field has little to do with the progress of the talks. This fight is about money, plain and simple. That's the bottom line in the aftermath of the Seattle Screw, Fail Mary, Simultaneous Misreception or whatever other names are given to the last play of Seattle's controversial win over Green Bay on Monday night.

While it's easy to understand the pleas to NFL owners and management (that would be you, commissioner Roger Goodell) about bringing back the veteran refs, here's what I have to say to that:

Who are you kidding?

The NFL has known for years now that fans will come crawling back to the game. Yeah, you might be strong enough to swear off the stuff for a day or two, but the reality is you can't resist.

NFL owners know their game of controlled violence generally packaged in a three-hour window of time and topped with a bunch of rituals (tailgaters, player introductions and the national anthem among them) is the perfect once-a-week event for those people seeking some mindless escape. Every time you see Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones flashing that wry smile, it's because he knows he has found a fool-proof way of making money.

So that's why I say to all fans who are complaining about the system, shut your yaps. Unless you really want to do something, put a sock in it. The same goes for so many current and former NFL players, from T.J. Lang to John Lynch. I respect what you guys do. You play or played a brutal, tough sport. But when it comes to making sacrifices that hit at philosophical and ethical issues, let's get serious.

If people who love the NFL really want something to change, there is one quick answer available to them on Thursday night: Don't watch the Cleveland Browns-Baltimore Ravens game on Thursday night on NFL Network. You've got choices. There's "Grey's Anatomy", "The X Factor", "The Office" and "Two and a Half Men". If you need a sports fix, there's this thing called baseball that is about to start its playoffs.

Oh yeah, baseball, the game that used to be known as the National Pastime.

Until fans are willing to turn off from the NFL, the owners have no incentive to change their business practices. Why should they when the fans (and the fans' money) keep rolling in?

I know this is not an original thought. Fans talk about boycotts and make other idle threats all the time. Word on Tuesday out of Wisconsin was that some fans were trying to organize a walkout at halftime of the Packers game against New Orleans on Sunday.

I'll believe it when I see it.

What I'm far more likely to see is owners sitting in their luxury boxes, smiling at the fans who keep handing them money, even when a critical part of the product is second-rate. Sure, some owners realize that they are playing a dangerous game. It's not good that the only thing people are really discussing about the Monday night game was the officiating and not the stunning defensive performances by both the Seahawks and the Packers.


For now, the owners are very confident that once this lockout is settled, it will quickly fade into every fan's distant memory.

Sort of the way $8 beers flow down their throats.

DukieBoy
09-26-2012, 07:39 PM
I'd like to see the Coen Brothers make a movie about the replacement refs.

Terrible Towlie
09-26-2012, 08:15 PM
Not me. I liked the controversy and it made games interesting to watch, instead of the regulars throwing a flag on every other play and reciting some rule. And it didn't cost the Steelers any games anyhow.

And at least we could count on the subs to not make up rules as they go along, like the regular refs did, ala "tuck rule", and other obscure situations.


These guys are ridiculous though. I've heard alot of people mention they'd like to see them stay to make it interesting, but it would be too much like the WWE. I like watching a great game.

Also, not only would I hate to lose a game because of the refs, but I wouldn't want to win a game either. Could you imagine the douchebag Ravens, Browns, Seahawk fans you would have to listen to?

RuthlessBurgher
09-27-2012, 12:36 PM
I'd like to see the Coen Brothers make a movie about the replacement refs.

Every wide receiver would be asking them, "O Brother, Where Art Thy Flag for Pass Interference?"