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steelz09
09-23-2012, 11:01 PM
It's obvious. Watch the games.

You could say that Foote had a bad game. You could say the defense had a bad game. Obviously, both are correct.

But time and time again... I watched Foote penetrate and a lot of times, miss a tackle in the backfield on the right side of the defense. It's bad enough he missed the tackle. It's WORSE....MUCH WORSE, that Timmons plays right ILB and he wasn't anywhere to be found.

He either over commits, takes wrong angles or simply can't fight off blocks. I'm tired of waiting for this guy to reach his "potential". He never has and he never will! He has no business being a 3-4 ILB and he's even worse as a 3-4 OLB. He should be on a 4-3 team.

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 11:03 PM
I agree 100% and have said so for 4 years.

hawaiiansteel
09-24-2012, 03:54 PM
by Mark Kaboly

You want somebody to blame for #Steelers loss? Blame this guy

You can blame a whole host of players who contributed to the Steelers loss to the Raiders, but you would be well within your rights to single out linebacker Lawrence Timmons as the main reason.

Timmons was signed to a six-year, $50 million extension last year with the thoughts of him being a play-making linebacker.

He’s been nothing of the sort yet. In fact, he’s been flat-out bad.

Timmons made two critical errors against the Raiders that just cannot happen.

The first was not filling the gap on Darren McFadden’s first-quarter touchdown run, and the more critical one was allowing Brandon Myers to convert a first down on a third-and-10 with 1:31 left in the game that led to the game-winning Sebastian Janikowski field goal.

Sure, it was great throw by Carson Palmer, but it is a play that Timmons is paid to make, and he didn’t.

http://sulia.com/channel/pittsburgh-steelers/f/22ec52b0-dd0e-4c9d-ac56-bf1c6a26394d/?source=twitter

legend of polamalu
09-24-2012, 04:23 PM
One thing I have noticed is that he may be a solid. decent player but the dude never makes splash plays!!! Sacks, Int's and FF's.

Jooser
09-24-2012, 05:24 PM
I'm woefully disappointed in Timmons as well.

Eddie Spaghetti
09-24-2012, 05:53 PM
he has been awful.

terrible instincts, not strong enough, and plays on roller skates.

steelfin
09-24-2012, 05:56 PM
He is definitely making too much money for the value he currently brings to the table.

NorthCoast
09-24-2012, 06:45 PM
Said as much in other posts. he is seen too often in pursuit rather than leading the tackle.

Slapstick
09-24-2012, 06:51 PM
Mundy was to blame for the McFadden run even moreso than Timmons...

NorthCoast
09-24-2012, 07:19 PM
Mundy was to blame for the McFadden run even moreso than Timmons...

Sadly, Mundy isn't even a poor man's Polamalu.

steelz09
09-24-2012, 07:23 PM
Sadly, Mundy isn't even a poor man's Polamalu.

Mundy isn't making 60 million either.

steelsnis
09-24-2012, 07:57 PM
Not to say Timmons hasn't been underperforming, but Kaboly was dead wrong in his earlier article. It was Keisel who was in the wrong spot on the long McFadden TD run, not Timmons. This article breaks it all down. http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/09/breaking-down-the-long-touchdown-run-by-darren-mcfadden-against-the-steelers/

Keisel admitted as much today in an interview.

Again, not absolving Timmons of blame for some of the defensive lapses, but the long TD was not one of them.

steelz09
09-24-2012, 08:03 PM
Not to say Timmons hasn't been underperforming, but Kaboly was dead wrong in his earlier article. It was Keisel who was in the wrong spot on the long McFadden TD run, not Timmons. This article breaks it all down. http://www.steelersdepot.com/2012/09/breaking-down-the-long-touchdown-run-by-darren-mcfadden-against-the-steelers/

Keisel admitted as much today in an interview.

Again, not absolving Timmons of blame for some of the defensive lapses, but the long TD was not one of them.

I'm not trying to blame the loss on Timmons. I'm also not overreacting and trying to throw a player under the bus for 1 loss. I'm simply saying that Timmons isn't a good 3-4 ILB and he's largely weak in run defense. He always has been and this year isn't any different.

He's just not good for a 3-4 scheme.

NJ-STEELER
09-25-2012, 03:03 AM
Could have stopped the title as sucks. Cause even his 'forte' of covering TEs/ RBs isn't very good either as illustrated in the article

No name TE beat him on that 3rd and 10. When the D DEAPERATELY needed a stop

All this from the 2nd highest drafted player on the team

papillon
09-25-2012, 06:50 AM
Unfortunately, it appears that the past couple drafts in which the Steelers were hoping to reload the defensive front 7 aren't panning out. The players looked promising as long as Steeler veterans were still playing at a high level, Smith, Hampton, Kiesel and Farrior. They're gone (except Kiesel) and the draftees now have 2, 3, or 4 years experience under their belts and they aren't producing the results that you would expect as the starters and not the role players.

Pappy

flippy
09-25-2012, 08:57 AM
Are our LBs getting free passes to the Golden Coral?

Timmons and Worldis look as big as some DLinemen.

Why do these guys need to beef up? I swear Farrior played the run as good as any LB ever and he looked about the size of a CB. Maybe Farrior had some extra dense muscle or something, but I swear I've seen him and he looked like a guy that would be pretty close to 200 lbs.

Slapstick
09-25-2012, 09:02 AM
Unfortunately, it appears that the past couple drafts in which the Steelers were hoping to reload the defensive front 7 aren't panning out. The players looked promising as long as Steeler veterans were still playing at a high level, Smith, Hampton, Kiesel and Farrior. They're gone (except Kiesel) and the draftees now have 2, 3, or 4 years experience under their belts and they aren't producing the results that you would expect as the starters and not the role players.

Pappy

I guess I'm not ready to concede the season with 13 games left to play...

papillon
09-25-2012, 11:22 AM
I guess I'm not ready to concede the season with 13 games left to play...

I'm not conceding the season, but players that were drafted in the first round need to begin playing first round talent and not 4th or 5th round talent, Hood, Timmons, Heyward to be specific. Thjese players were drafted to replace Smith, Hampton and Farrior and the results so far are underwhelming.

Pappy

Slapstick
09-25-2012, 12:00 PM
I'm not conceding the season, but players that were drafted in the first round need to begin playing first round talent and not 4th or 5th round talent, Hood, Timmons, Heyward to be specific. Thjese players were drafted to replace Smith, Hampton and Farrior and the results so far are underwhelming.

Pappy

They do need to put Heyward on the field more...he plays behind Keisel who had a terrible day on Sunday...

Out of Heyward, Hood and Timmons, only one of them sees limited snaps...and that's the guy who recorded a sack...

Shoe
09-25-2012, 01:01 PM
I'm not conceding the season, but players that were drafted in the first round need to begin playing first round talent and not 4th or 5th round talent, Hood, Timmons, Heyward to be specific. Thjese players were drafted to replace Smith, Hampton and Farrior and the results so far are underwhelming.

Pappy

Exactly.
Think back to this era's glory days (i.e. 2005-ish). We were full of young difference-makers: Polamalu, Ben, Miller, Hampton, Ward, Smith, Peezy, Ike... now, who do we got? AB, Wallace, maybe Pouncey, and ONE defender--Woodley. Every other young players consistently fails to distinguish themselves in any way. CHRIS f'n CARTER. ZIGGY HOOD. CORTEZ ALLEN/KEENAN LEWIS. CAM HEYWARD. TIMMONS. (just ignoring offensive players for a sec)

Have ANY of these guys done ONE THING that you can recall in 3 games so far? Most of them should be ASHAMED at the lack of production they've had. That's the big problem.

Oviedo
09-25-2012, 01:08 PM
Unfortunately, it appears that the past couple drafts in which the Steelers were hoping to reload the defensive front 7 aren't panning out. The players looked promising as long as Steeler veterans were still playing at a high level, Smith, Hampton, Kiesel and Farrior. They're gone (except Kiesel) and the draftees now have 2, 3, or 4 years experience under their belts and they aren't producing the results that you would expect as the starters and not the role players.

Pappy

Therein lies my fundamental issue with the 3-4. Too much speculation and projection that you will be able to convert players in the front 7 versus bringing them in and letting them grow and improve in the positions they have naturally played and you watched and scouted them playing in college. The result is after 3 years you get the real picture as to whether your experiment has worked.

hawaiiansteel
09-25-2012, 01:26 PM
Post-Oakland thoughts

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 2012
posted by Dale Lolley

This game reminded me of on in Chicago in 1995 when the Steelers got into a shootout with the Bears. The last team to have the ball was going to win it.

Only that Steelers team had a great defense to go along with an emerging offense.

This team has established stars all over on offense and Ben Roethlisberger is playing the best football of his life.

As for a great defense, not so much - at least on the road.

As Brett Keisel said after this one, this team needs to find a way to win on the road if it is going to get to where it wants to go.

That being said, Denver and Oakland are two tough places to open. There are easier road games coming, and the Steelers had to be pleased that they put up 31 points in a very hostile environment.

But the defense allowed scores on five consecutive possessions. Can't somebody, anybody, make a play?

While the Steelers have spent some big money on offensive players in recent years, they've also dropped some heavy coin on a couple of defensive players - LaMarr Woodley and Lawrence Timmons - as well.

They're not getting their money's worth right now.

Sure, Woodley had the team's lone sack Sunday and also had a tackle for a loss. But he finished with four tackles.

That was still better than Timmons, who had three tackles. In fact, after recording seven sacks and four forced fumbles in 2009, Timmons has five sacks and two forced fumbles - in the past two-plus seasons.

At this point, he's not even as impactful on a game as Larry Foote, who doesn't have nearly the athleticism of Timmons.

Often times, tackles are a matter of opportunity. But there's something to be said about players who make their own opportunities as well.

@ If you had any question about Mike Tomlin's faith in his defense to stop the Raiders in the second half, you only needed to see him go for a fourth-and-1 at his own 29.

At that point, it was the right call. As we saw, the Steelers couldn't stop Oakland's offense.

With that in mind, I'd have given serious thought to going for it on fourth-and-9 from the 36 as well.

@ Ben Roethlisberger played an outstanding game, leading the team to 31 points while continuing his hot play on third downs, where the Steelers converted 8 of 14 for the game.

But he once again had a chance to lead a fourth quarter, game-winning drive and failed.

In the past two seasons, Roethlisberger has led exactly one game-winner, and that came against lowly Indianapolis last season.

In his first seven seasons, Roethlisberger led 26 such drives, many of which came when he was, you know, just a game manager.

@ This is still a pretty good team with a chance to get much better coming out of the bye when it gets Rashard Mendenhall, Troy Polamalu and James Harrison back.

Mendenhall has looked good in practice and has to be able to give the team something better than the 2.6 yards per carry it's currently averaging.

Polamalu is still Polamalu, while even a one-legged Harrison would give this team some kind of pass rush outside of Woodley.

The Steelers are on pace to allow more touchdown passes (32) than they have sacks (27).

You want to know what's wrong with this defense? That's it in a nutshell. The lack of pressure is killing it.

@ That was a bad fumble for Jonathan Dwyer. With Mendenhall coming back and Barron Batch showing a little something as a third-down back Sunday, Dwyer could find his opportunities dwindling quickly.

@ On the positive side, with the return of Mendenhall, this offense has a chance to be one of the more dynamic ones in the NFL. If the defense can play average football the rest of the way and the offense continues to click, the Steelers still have the look of a 10 or 11-win team.

But unless they figure out how to win a big game on the road, any hopes of another Super Bowl run are just that, hopes.

http://www.observer-reporter.com/or/sidelines/

phillyesq
09-25-2012, 02:06 PM
Therein lies my fundamental issue with the 3-4. Too much speculation and projection that you will be able to convert players in the front 7 versus bringing them in and letting them grow and improve in the positions they have naturally played and you watched and scouted them playing in college. The result is after 3 years you get the real picture as to whether your experiment has worked.

As I've pointed out many times in the past, drafting defensive lineman even in the 4-3 is a very risky proposition. Look back at the DEs picked in the first round in the past few drafts. A lot of busts or guys who have failed to contribute much, if anything, during their first few years. DTs are also very risky picks.

phillyesq
09-25-2012, 02:12 PM
Unfortunately, it appears that the past couple drafts in which the Steelers were hoping to reload the defensive front 7 aren't panning out. The players looked promising as long as Steeler veterans were still playing at a high level, Smith, Hampton, Kiesel and Farrior. They're gone (except Kiesel) and the draftees now have 2, 3, or 4 years experience under their belts and they aren't producing the results that you would expect as the starters and not the role players.

Pappy

Agree completely.

Oviedo
09-25-2012, 02:15 PM
As I've pointed out many times in the past, drafting defensive lineman even in the 4-3 is a very risky proposition. Look back at the DEs picked in the first round in the past few drafts. A lot of busts or guys who have failed to contribute much, if anything, during their first few years. DTs are also very risky picks.

I wouldn't think the odds of failure as equal. However, if you draft them into the 4-3 you can at least get them on the field in Year 1 to get a sense of where they are.

feltdizz
09-25-2012, 03:16 PM
I wouldn't think the odds of failure as equal. However, if you draft them into the 4-3 you can at least get them on the field in Year 1 to get a sense of where they are.

yep.. and I think this goes for the whole defense... we have guys who are good at certain things and then we tinker with them and ask them to learn defense in French and Spanish before they can see the field.

It's football... let them do what they do...

Maybe it's a Pittsburgh thing... I know the Pirates stink but it seems like every year or 2 they get a pitcher who is unhittable his first year... then they tinker with his motion, add this, take that out and the guy ends up being trash.

I feel like we did this with Timmons and a few DB's. They showed promise... then we asked them to bulk up, slim down, learn 4 positions and they are 2 steps slow for the next 2 years.

phillyesq
09-25-2012, 03:44 PM
yep.. and I think this goes for the whole defense... we have guys who are good at certain things and then we tinker with them and ask them to learn defense in French and Spanish before they can see the field.

It's football... let them do what they do...

Maybe it's a Pittsburgh thing... I know the Pirates stink but it seems like every year or 2 they get a pitcher who is unhittable his first year... then they tinker with his motion, add this, take that out and the guy ends up being trash.

I feel like we did this with Timmons and a few DB's. They showed promise... then we asked them to bulk up, slim down, learn 4 positions and they are 2 steps slow for the next 2 years.

Which DBs?

And I don't think anybody told Timmons to bulk up as much as he did. Adding 5-10 pounds should not completely sap his speed. Plus, he doesn't seem to have added any functional strength despite getting larger and slower.

Shoe
09-25-2012, 05:54 PM
But the defense allowed scores on five consecutive possessions. Can't somebody, anybody, make a play?

While the Steelers have spent some big money on offensive players in recent years, they've also dropped some heavy coin on a couple of defensive players - LaMarr Woodley and Lawrence Timmons - as well.

They're not getting their money's worth right now.

Sure, Woodley had the team's lone sack Sunday and also had a tackle for a loss. But he finished with four tackles.


If you've paid attention to my posts, you'd know I've been tough on Woodley. But NONE of this can be blamed on him IMO. Last game, all OAK did was run away from his side of the field all game, and just pay attention to him. It's obvious just by watching the game, he jumps out as the ONLY guy with any playmaking ability. Foote is 2nd (sadly). Timmons is an average LB at best. Carter is a complete non-factor... very disappointing to me. As for DL, Keisel & Hampton are old (can't really be expected to do anything other than be solid, which I presume they still are). Hood? I've called him a flat BUM, and it looks like I'm right. I called him a Big Daddy Wilkinson type, blessed with "athletic" numbers, but can't do **** when the rubber meets the road. You could put a trash can or a tree stump or any inanimate large object there at DE, and you could reasonably replicate his production.

hawaiiansteel
09-25-2012, 08:40 PM
Steelers: Woodley, Timmons Must Step Up

by Steelblitz

Lawrence Timmons and LaMarr Woodley were given big money deals with the intent that they would become big time playmakers at the linebacker position. In the absence of James Harrison and Troy Polamalu the Steelers have needed someone to step up and the hope was it would be Woodley and Timmons, but it hasn’t happened. When the Steelers gave these two linebackers their big money deals they were hoping for consistent repeat performances of their 2009 and 2010 seasons, but 2011 was a down year for both players and neither has been very impressive so far in 2012.

Against the Raiders LaMarr Woodley was up against a right tackle that had only been on Oakland’s roster for a few weeks, but he was held in check for most of the game recording 4 tackles and a sack. Although Woodley recorded the one sack he struggled to get much pressure on Carson Palmer all day. With James Harrison’s injury issues the past two seasons we have seen Woodley play a lot as the premier pass rushing threat and he has struggled. Palmer was not pressured much at all on Sunday and it is Woodley’s job to push that pocket. Another reason for Woodley’s slow start could be the play calling. He is being asked to do a lot of things on defense and is not rushing the quarterback as much as in recent years. It will be interesting to see how the defense, and Woodley, plays when Harrison and Troy Polamalu return.

Timmons also sturggled in 2011 when you look at his stat sheet. However, I will still give him a pass for his play in 2011 as he was moving around to multiple positions which is hard on any player. Timmons in 2012, however, is expected to remain at inside linebacker for the entire season. The Steelers need him to step up in that position and make plays.

On Sunday the Raiders scored on five straight possessions against the Steelers defense. That is completely unacceptable and everyone on that defensive unit knows it. Woodley and Timmons need to step up now and be the guys who make plays on those series by creating a turnover or making a big play on third down to get the defense off the field; especially in the absence of two former Defensive Players of the Year in Harrison and Polamalu.

The biggest difference for Timmons and Woodley in comparison to their two best seasons in 2009 and 2010 is the turnovers, In 2009 and 2010 they created 14 turnover opportunities for the defense with interceptions and forced fumbles. Including 2008 they had averaged about 6.5 turnover opportunities a season, however, in 2011 they created only 3. So far in 2012, through the first three games, they have created none.

Polamalu and Harrison should be back soon and should help the defense get better, but there are some concerns for the future. I’m not the only person who expects Casey Hampton and James Harrison to leave after this season and Polamalu and Ryan Clark likely have around 2-3 years left a piece which leaves a big question: Are Timmons and Woodley ready to take over as the leaders and play-makers of the defense when they are gone? And if not who will?

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/steelers_woodley_timmons_must_step_up/11798266

phillyesq
09-25-2012, 10:40 PM
I wouldn't think the odds of failure as equal. However, if you draft them into the 4-3 you can at least get them on the field in Year 1 to get a sense of where they are.

Here are the first round DEs from the past few drafts:

2009:

3 - Tyson Jackson
11 - Cameron Maybin
13 - Brian Orakpo
16 - Larry English
18 - Robert Ayers
32 - Ziggy Hood

Orakpo, the 3-4 conversion product, is the only clear success out of that group.

2010:

15 - Jason Pierre Paul
16 - Derrick Morgan
31 - Jerry Hughes

One hit, 1 bust in Hughes, and I have no idea what Morgan has done, if anything.

Here is 2011:

3 - Marcellus Dareus (DE/DT)
11 - JJ Watt
14 - Robert Quinn
16 - Ryan Kerrigan (converted to LB)
20 - Adrian Clayborn
24 - Cameron Jordan
30 - Muhammed Wilkerson
31 - Heyward

Watt is a stud, Wilkerson has started since he was a rookie, and then a whole lot of question marks.

Looking back on the past few drafts, I see no empirical data supporting your speculation that it is easier to find players for a 4-3. If you can respond with something other than conjecture, I'd love to see it.

BigRob
09-25-2012, 10:51 PM
Profootball Focus completely disagrees with you guys. They believe he had an excellent game.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/09/25/refo-steelers-raiders-week-3/

Linebackers Strong Against the Run
They may have been without James Harrison but the Steelers still got some very impressive play from their linebackers. None of the four graded negatively for the game, and three of them scored very well against the run. Lamarr Woodley (+1.8), Larry Foote (+2.3) and Lawrence Timmons (+3.3) all showed very well in the run game, and constantly knifed between blockers to make stops in and around the line of scrimmage. The four linebackers combined for 12 defensive stops and just a single missed tackle.
Though Harrison is obviously a major loss for Pittsburgh, they will be pleased at how Chris Carter played in his stead. Carter may not have graded spectacularly (+0.2), but he made plays in the game and wasn’t exposed the way some players can be at that position.
D-Line Needs Reinforcements
I routinely wonder what some Steelers fans see in Ziggy Hood (-2.4), to the point that I’m actually checking plays more times than I normally would just to make sure I’m not missing some extremely subtle and under-the-radar level of dominance from him. It’s just not there. I was actually shocked in this outing when he made a good play in the run game–and even then he was beaten to the tackle by Timmons. Despite 36 snaps rushing the passer he failed to generate any pressure whatsoever.
I understand that might not be his specialty in this defense (though given his college background it probably should be), but if he’s out there for 36 snaps against the pass he needs to be able to make himself a factor. Otherwise he is just dead weight, because he rarely commands more than one blocker. In the end it was another poor performance from Hood and, as Casey Hampton (-1.3) isn’t getting any younger, Pittsburgh need to find some linemen going forward.

steelsnis
09-26-2012, 10:06 AM
How dare you let facts get in the way of a message board thread!!!

Oviedo
09-26-2012, 10:23 AM
. In the end it was another poor performance from Hood and, as Casey Hampton (-1.3) isn’t getting any younger, Pittsburgh need to find some linemen going forward.

When we get those defensive linemen we can then spend two years helping them unlearn how to go after the QB and learn how to "occupy" blockers. What a waste!

phillyesq
09-26-2012, 11:36 AM
Profootball Focus completely disagrees with you guys. They believe he had an excellent game.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/09/25/refo-steelers-raiders-week-3/

Linebackers Strong Against the Run
They may have been without James Harrison but the Steelers still got some very impressive play from their linebackers. None of the four graded negatively for the game, and three of them scored very well against the run. Lamarr Woodley (+1.8), Larry Foote (+2.3) and Lawrence Timmons (+3.3) all showed very well in the run game, and constantly knifed between blockers to make stops in and around the line of scrimmage. The four linebackers combined for 12 defensive stops and just a single missed tackle.
Though Harrison is obviously a major loss for Pittsburgh, they will be pleased at how Chris Carter played in his stead. Carter may not have graded spectacularly (+0.2), but he made plays in the game and wasn’t exposed the way some players can be at that position.
D-Line Needs Reinforcements
I routinely wonder what some Steelers fans see in Ziggy Hood (-2.4), to the point that I’m actually checking plays more times than I normally would just to make sure I’m not missing some extremely subtle and under-the-radar level of dominance from him. It’s just not there. I was actually shocked in this outing when he made a good play in the run game–and even then he was beaten to the tackle by Timmons. Despite 36 snaps rushing the passer he failed to generate any pressure whatsoever.
I understand that might not be his specialty in this defense (though given his college background it probably should be), but if he’s out there for 36 snaps against the pass he needs to be able to make himself a factor. Otherwise he is just dead weight, because he rarely commands more than one blocker. In the end it was another poor performance from Hood and, as Casey Hampton (-1.3) isn’t getting any younger, Pittsburgh need to find some linemen going forward.

I rewatched part of the game last night, and I must not have seen the part where Timmons played well against the run.

Two plays in particular that I recall did show me that Timmons is not getting the job done. The first was a run by Redman to the left. Pouncey went out and got an Oakland LBer, and it was a decent but not great block. Got both hands on him but did not pancake him or redirect. The Oakland LBer fought through the block and stopped Redman. If Pouncey had held the block longer or if the LBer had not fought through it, Redman would have had a nice gain.

By contrast, on a run to the left, the Oakland LG helped on Hampton then went out to get Timmons. Timmons was slow to react to the play and then LG only got one hand on him. Completely took Timmons out of the play. Pouncey had a much better block that was defeated by the Oakland LBer on Redman's run. After Timmons was taken out of the play, Clark missed the tackle and McFadden had a long gain.

Very small sample size, but some conclusions:

- Would like to see Pouncey maintain his blocks better at the second level;
- Redman is no McFadden
- Timmons needs to fight through blocks better.

BigRob
09-26-2012, 12:52 PM
I rewatched part of the game last night, and I must not have seen the part where Timmons played well against the run.

Two plays in particular that I recall did show me that Timmons is not getting the job done. The first was a run by Redman to the left. Pouncey went out and got an Oakland LBer, and it was a decent but not great block. Got both hands on him but did not pancake him or redirect. The Oakland LBer fought through the block and stopped Redman. If Pouncey had held the block longer or if the LBer had not fought through it, Redman would have had a nice gain.

By contrast, on a run to the left, the Oakland LG helped on Hampton then went out to get Timmons. Timmons was slow to react to the play and then LG only got one hand on him. Completely took Timmons out of the play. Pouncey had a much better block that was defeated by the Oakland LBer on Redman's run. After Timmons was taken out of the play, Clark missed the tackle and McFadden had a long gain.

Very small sample size, but some conclusions:

- Would like to see Pouncey maintain his blocks better at the second level;
- Redman is no McFadden
- Timmons needs to fight through blocks better.

2 plays out of how many defensive snaps?

phillyesq
09-26-2012, 01:14 PM
2 plays out of how many defensive snaps?

I acknowledge - very small sample size. However, those 2 plays were consistent with a lot of what I saw -- that Timmons cannot fight through blocks. He may be effective if he is untouched, but an ILB needs to fight through blocks.

steelz09
09-26-2012, 03:18 PM
I rewatched part of the game last night, and I must not have seen the part where Timmons played well against the run.

Two plays in particular that I recall did show me that Timmons is not getting the job done. The first was a run by Redman to the left. Pouncey went out and got an Oakland LBer, and it was a decent but not great block. Got both hands on him but did not pancake him or redirect. The Oakland LBer fought through the block and stopped Redman. If Pouncey had held the block longer or if the LBer had not fought through it, Redman would have had a nice gain.

By contrast, on a run to the left, the Oakland LG helped on Hampton then went out to get Timmons. Timmons was slow to react to the play and then LG only got one hand on him. Completely took Timmons out of the play. Pouncey had a much better block that was defeated by the Oakland LBer on Redman's run. After Timmons was taken out of the play, Clark missed the tackle and McFadden had a long gain.

Very small sample size, but some conclusions:

- Would like to see Pouncey maintain his blocks better at the second level;
- Redman is no McFadden
- Timmons needs to fight through blocks better.

I don't care what profootballstats has to say. I've watched the game.... I rewatched the game. Timmons is not good in run defense. period. My sampling size is from the time Timmons became a full time starter to last week.

BigRob
09-26-2012, 03:49 PM
I acknowledge - very small sample size. However, those 2 plays were consistent with a lot of what I saw -- that Timmons cannot fight through blocks. He may be effective if he is untouched, but an ILB needs to fight through blocks.

I'm not knocking you or your opinion. I'm just stating a well respected Pro Football Focus says that Timmons played well overall.

BigRob
09-26-2012, 03:50 PM
I don't care what profootballstats has to say. I've watched the game.... I rewatched the game. Timmons is not good in run defense. period. My sampling size is from the time Timmons became a full time starter to last week.

Ha ha, It's not stats. They watch the All 22 and evaluate the in game play of people. They looked at every defensive snap and graded Timmons out well in this game. Pro Football Focus is very well respected in most all circles.

Oviedo
09-26-2012, 03:54 PM
Ha ha, It's not stats. They watch the All 22 and evaluate the in game play of people. They looked at every defensive snap and graded Timmons out well in this game. Pro Football Focus is very well respected in most all circles.

You're missing the point. They don't support the anti-Timmons agenda. Get on board!!!!!

BigRob
09-26-2012, 04:36 PM
You're missing the point. They don't support the anti-Timmons agenda. Get on board!!!!!

Timmons would last 2 seconds in the Free Agent Market. He needs thumper beside him that is not names Foote. Manti Te'o would look very nice, and we may be in position to get him if trends continue.

fordfixer
09-26-2012, 04:44 PM
Timmons would last 2 seconds in the Free Agent Market. He needs thumper beside him that is not names Foote. Manti Te'o would look very nice, and we may be in position to get him if trends continue. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRg18ZG9vA93EqW9qLs1B94-pJpp2JQzaOzdd5C4QkXUgRiMwSElsUAnnVJ3whttp://helmet2helmet.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/lawrence-timmons.jpg

Oviedo
09-26-2012, 05:17 PM
Timmons would last 2 seconds in the Free Agent Market. He needs thumper beside him that is not names Foote. Manti Te'o would look very nice, and we may be in position to get him if trends continue.

Most sensible people know that. I'm admittedly a Timmons fan and I'm not happy with what I have seen so far this year except in the Jets game where he was sentter the QB about half a dozen times. That is what we should see more not "thumping." That was never his strength and it takes away from what he has aways done best and that is move sideline to sideline.

ikestops85
09-26-2012, 05:41 PM
Speaking of Linebackers not playing well. I watched the Pats vs Ratbirds and Hightower, who many on here were pimping, looked absolutely horrible. On running plays he never attacked the LOS but waited for the blocker to come to him 5 yards down the field. Then he never seemed to get off the block. He was beaten several times on the pass by Ray Rice. When Rice did that to Farrior we all wanted to put Farrior in the old folks home.

I'm not saying Hightower is a bust. It's far too early in his career to say that. I am saying he doesn't look like the second coming of Dick Butkus like some on here thought he would be. He looks more like the second coming of Lawrence Timmons. ;)

Eddie Spaghetti
09-26-2012, 05:55 PM
3 total tackles and gets beat by a no name TE on the biggest 3rd down of the game.

yeah, timmons played great.

NorthCoast
09-26-2012, 07:12 PM
3 total tackles and gets beat by a no name TE on the biggest 3rd down of the game.

yeah, timmons played great.

and where were those tackles...not behind or even at the LOS, but 3 or more yds up field..... dude needs serious work on run defense if he wants to continue to play there.

steelz09
09-26-2012, 08:10 PM
Speaking of Linebackers not playing well. I watched the Pats vs Ratbirds and Hightower, who many on here were pimping, looked absolutely horrible. On running plays he never attacked the LOS but waited for the blocker to come to him 5 yards down the field. Then he never seemed to get off the block. He was beaten several times on the pass by Ray Rice. When Rice did that to Farrior we all wanted to put Farrior in the old folks home.

I'm not saying Hightower is a bust. It's far too early in his career to say that. I am saying he doesn't look like the second coming of Dick Butkus like some on here thought he would be. He looks more like the second coming of Lawrence Timmons. ;)

You think Timmons could cover Ray Rice? You think any of our LBs can cover Rice? Nope.

steelz09
09-26-2012, 08:13 PM
and where were those tackles...not behind or even at the LOS, but 3 or more yds up field..... dude needs serious work on run defense if he wants to continue to play there.

Yup..... If you want a LB that doesn't tackle a RB until about a 5 yard gain, Timmons is your guy. He could even provide you 100 of those tackles :roll:

Oviedo
09-27-2012, 08:13 AM
Speaking of Linebackers not playing well. I watched the Pats vs Ratbirds and Hightower, who many on here were pimping, looked absolutely horrible. On running plays he never attacked the LOS but waited for the blocker to come to him 5 yards down the field. Then he never seemed to get off the block. He was beaten several times on the pass by Ray Rice. When Rice did that to Farrior we all wanted to put Farrior in the old folks home.

I'm not saying Hightower is a bust. It's far too early in his career to say that. I am saying he doesn't look like the second coming of Dick Butkus like some on here thought he would be. He looks more like the second coming of Lawrence Timmons. ;)

I watched all the Pats games this season and I agree...Hightower looks terrible.

steelz09
09-27-2012, 08:36 AM
Timmons would last 2 seconds in the Free Agent Market. He needs thumper beside him that is not names Foote. Manti Te'o would look very nice, and we may be in position to get him if trends continue.

You are probably right. A 4-3 team would sign him quickly. Not a 3-4 team.

phillyesq
09-27-2012, 10:08 AM
You're missing the point. They don't support the anti-Timmons agenda. Get on board!!!!!

Says the most agenda driven poster on the forum...

Oviedo
09-27-2012, 11:00 AM
Says the most agenda driven poster on the forum...

We all have points of view don't we? Some advocate change and some bury their heads and refuse to see problems. That is what makes for civil discussion versus everyone talking to themselves.

I have never denied that I believe that we need to change our defense. I have always preferred the 4-3 defense to what we do. Never made a secret of that. I saw problems starting two years ago that are coming to the fore. I simply brought those up on a consistent basis. I stayed on message. I have never insulted or name called other posters and guess what. Exactly what I predicted is happening and now you see many more posters on this board acknowledging and commenting on the same problems. I think that you as a barrister can appreciate that has been a pretty effective way to communicate my opinions. And yes they are my opinions and they will have zero impact on what the Steelers organization does. Neither all right or all wrong. I never understand why that bothers anyone that another poster has a different opinion and even worse appears to be right.

ikestops85
09-27-2012, 01:13 PM
We all have points of view don't we? Some advocate change and some bury their heads and refuse to see problems. That is what makes for civil discussion versus everyone talking to themselves.

You are so right Ovi. We have our opinions and I think that is the enjoyment of having a message board ... getting to voice ours and hear others.

Besides, I don't mind pointing out how wrong your opinion is and how right mine is. :lol::lol:

Unless we have some Steeler coaches on this board I don't think anyones opinion is more educated than anybody elses. None of us really "know" who called a play, whether Ben audibled, the blocking scheme, the defensive scheme, who didn't cover, who didn't block, who should have done what. We might assume we know or think we know but we don't really "know". Given that, I think that anybody's opinion is just as good and valid as anyone elses ... no matter how many times that state it.

Oviedo
09-27-2012, 02:28 PM
You are so right Ovi. We have our opinions and I think that is the enjoyment of having a message board ... getting to voice ours and hear others.

Besides, I don't mind pointing out how wrong your opinion is and how right mine is. :lol::lol:

Unless we have some Steeler coaches on this board I don't think anyones opinion is more educated than anybody elses. None of us really "know" who called a play, whether Ben audibled, the blocking scheme, the defensive scheme, who didn't cover, who didn't block, who should have done what. We might assume we know or think we know but we don't really "know". Given that, I think that anybody's opinion is just as good and valid as anyone elses ... no matter how many times that state it.

I totally agree with you. That was an impressive post and the first time ever that you weren't wrong;) Keep up the good work. Please feel free to cite anything I write to help you be right more often in the future!!!!!!

steelz09
09-27-2012, 04:02 PM
You are so right Ovi. We have our opinions and I think that is the enjoyment of having a message board ... getting to voice ours and hear others.

Besides, I don't mind pointing out how wrong your opinion is and how right mine is. :lol::lol:

Unless we have some Steeler coaches on this board I don't think anyones opinion is more educated than anybody elses. None of us really "know" who called a play, whether Ben audibled, the blocking scheme, the defensive scheme, who didn't cover, who didn't block, who should have done what. We might assume we know or think we know but we don't really "know". Given that, I think that anybody's opinion is just as good and valid as anyone elses ... no matter how many times that state it.


we might have some coaches on this board. Case in point... Colon moving to guard.