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stopplayn
09-23-2012, 09:28 PM
But its a 4 quarter game. Ben was shut out in the 4th and Carson made the big plays. I do see improvement in Bens game though. However, I would like to see how well he does vs a good defense before I say he has turned the corner. I like what I see though.

D Rock
09-23-2012, 09:33 PM
When a QB plays like he did for 3 quarters, putting up those numbers, BY CHOICE, and not because you are playing from behind....

the rest of the team needs to make a win happen. It sure would have been nice to have some semblance of a running game to lean on to drain some clock.

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 09:33 PM
Thx for the positive post bro. I wont let them get to me. If Ben plays lights out does it hurt me? Hell no HELPS my team lol
Thx bro!!!!

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 09:35 PM
When a QB plays like he did for 3 quarters, putting up those numbers, BY CHOICE, and not because you are playing from behind....

the rest of the team needs to make a win happen. It sure would have been nice to have some semblance of a running game to lean on to drain some clock.

You mean like Brady did in the SB only to lose in the last 30 seconds? What was Brady called by Steeler Nation? Let me help you... He was called a LOSER.

So is Ben. You cant have it both ways. Ben was shut out in the 4th and Palmer wasnt. Palmer outplayed him late. Fact

DukieBoy
09-23-2012, 09:39 PM
When a QB plays like he did for 3 quarters, putting up those numbers, BY CHOICE, and not because you are playing from behind....

the rest of the team needs to make a win happen. It sure would have been nice to have some semblance of a running game to lean on to drain some clock.

Truth. :Bow:Bow:Bow

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 09:43 PM
So you feel that Brady was a winner despite losing his last SB? He did put them up to win. The defense lost the game.

Steelgal
09-23-2012, 09:44 PM
Our lack of a running game is truly disturbing.

DukieBoy
09-23-2012, 09:47 PM
When a QB plays like he did for 3 quarters, putting up those numbers, BY CHOICE, and not because you are playing from behind....

the rest of the team needs to make a win happen. It sure would have been nice to have some semblance of a running game to lean on to drain some clock.

Somebody apparently had an axe to grind, and missing the bigger picture. Ben was big today, as usual. But the team lost anyway. There are problems to correct, and maybe players and schemes to replace.

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 10:01 PM
I never said Ben didnt play well. He did. But he isnt blameless either. I dont get how Ben could play so poorly in SB 40 BUT still get credit for the SB win.
Now he plays well but is not blameworthy in a loss. How does that work?

Ben had the ball with 6 minutes to play and he came up short. Carson didnt and why? Because he scored points late and won.

Tomlin goes for it on 4th and Ben has a 1st down.
1st and 10- Ben is sacked with his checkdown Redman open in plain view
2nd and 15- Ben a short pass to Heath
3rd and 9- Ben overthrows Wallace

No blame? If you guys say so

Ghost
09-23-2012, 10:03 PM
Ben has 2 Super Bowl rings. Palmer has none. Ben is a better QB. Fact.

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 10:06 PM
Ben has 2 Super Bowl rings. Palmer has none. Ben is a better QB. Fact.

Ike Taylor has 2 Super Bowl rings too so that means he is better than Reavis?

Of course Ben is better than Palmer.

Steelgal
09-23-2012, 10:12 PM
I never said Ben didnt play well. He did. But he isnt blameless either. I dont get how Ben could play so poorly in SB 40 BUT still get credit for the SB win.
Now he plays well but is not blameworthy in a loss. How does that work?

Ben had the ball with 6 minutes to play and he came up short. Carson didnt and why? Because he scored points late and won.

Tomlin goes for it on 4th and Ben has a 1st down.
1st and 10- Ben is sacked with his checkdown Redman open in plain view
2nd and 15- Ben a short pass to Heath
3rd and 9- Ben overthrows Wallace

No blame? If you guys say so

I don't think I've read ANY rational Steeler fan said Ben played well in that SB. The entire team got credit for the win, not just Ben. Losses should also be given to the entire team, as is this one. But to say the defense played better than the offense today is just ridiculous.

You could argue our offense had too many turnovers OR you could say their defense stepped up and made plays when they needed made. Just like you could say Palmer stepped up in the 4th quarter and made plays when he needed to OR our defense didn't. It can be looked at either way. You say Carson made plays and Ben didn't. Fine, but if OUR defense would have played better, Carson would NOT have been able to score those points. You can't have it both ways.....

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 10:21 PM
No they dont say he played well (how can they) however I'm sure you have heard many Steeler fans say (Ben has 2 SBs). Dont you see the hypocrisy? Ben get credit for a win while playing putrid but you dont want to give him blame when he plays well and we lose. How does that work? Palmer put up 17 points in the 4th but you want to blame our D for that instead of give Palmer credit. If Ben scored 17 in the 4th and we won would you be saying "Their D sucks" or would you be saying "Ben was clutch and won the game". I assume you would say the latter. Ben gets credit for wins but no blame for losses. I didnt say the defense played better than the offense TODAY. I said they play well more consistently than our offense.

You are judging our defense without considering that they werent at full strength. If the Mother and Father are absent from the family dont you think that family would be affected?

Ghost
09-23-2012, 10:24 PM
Ben had a higher QB rating, a higher QBR, less int's, more yards by 175, a higher average per throw, but yeah, he got out played. Take your sh!tty agenda elsewhere.

BURGH86STEEL
09-23-2012, 10:29 PM
The offense or defense didn't step up in crunch time. The games don't get any easier.

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 10:30 PM
Ben had a higher QB rating, a higher QBR, less int's, more yards by 175, a higher average per throw, but yeah, he got out played. Take your sh!tty agenda elsewhere.

If Carson scores 17 points in the 4th and Ben scores 0 then Thats not outplayed?

I wonder if Ben scores 17 in the 4th and Palmer 0 would you say that Palmer outplayed Ben If he led in all those misleading stats? Some how I doubt it

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 10:30 PM
The offense or defense didn't step up in crunch time. The games don't get any easier.

Accurate post.

NorthCoast
09-23-2012, 10:39 PM
The Raiders offense had the ball the equivalent of one quarter of football less than the Steelers offense. To even suggest this loss was on the offense is laughable.
I just wonder if LeBeau is still trying to figure out what kind of defense he can put on the field without Troy. Seems he has been shuffling pieces, but still hasn't found a consistent answer.

virgilbosetti
09-23-2012, 10:42 PM
I completely disagree. Ben was huge today. A bright spot in a mistake filled effort from many.....but not Ben. The 4th qrt he was 3 for 4 ? Sacked once and hurried three time...and I think Colin was called for holding. AB fumbled their best drive away. This game was lost because of two turnovers. Abysmal defense and WAY to many penalties.

You are entitled to your opinion sir, but I disagree.

DukieBoy
09-23-2012, 10:45 PM
Ryan Mundy is not the answer. He's getting beat as if he likes it, all over the field. They'd be better off playing an extra corner, Cortez or Curtis. Just IMO.

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 10:46 PM
Ben didnt score any points in the 4th. Those are the facts. Carson scored 17 to Bens zero and you say that doesnt matter? Ok

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 10:47 PM
Ryan Mundy is not the answer. He's getting beat as if he likes it, all over the field. They'd be better off playing an extra corner, Cortez or Curtis. Just IMO.

Mundy played SS (for troy) we cant have a corner play SS

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 10:48 PM
Mundy played SS (for troy) we cant have a corner play SS

Or did Clark play SS and Mundy in Clarks Fs spot?

Ghost
09-23-2012, 10:54 PM
384 yards with a 123.2 rating and 3 TD's (should have been 4 if Brown doesn't fumble) and he did it with NO running game. Yeah, you don't have an agenda..... I don't know who you are (nor care) but I know what you are - a f'n moron.

DukieBoy
09-23-2012, 10:56 PM
I am loving the Ignore Feature. Got the two negative newbies on it now. Life is good.

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 11:01 PM
384 yards with a 123.2 rating and 3 TD's (should have been 4 if Brown doesn't fumble) and he did it with NO running game. Yeah, you don't have an agenda..... I don't know who you are (nor care) but I know what you are - a f'n moron.

4th quarter stats please. Carson Palmer was 11-14 123 yards and 2tds and 1 fg for 17 points and the W

Now list Bens 4th quarter stats. You know the ones that mean something?

virgilbosetti
09-23-2012, 11:04 PM
I listed his stats on page two along with the real facts.

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 11:09 PM
So scoring zero points in the 4th while your counterpart scores 17 and wins is no biggie? Ok

stopplayn
09-23-2012, 11:12 PM
Flacco has scored 21 points for 3 quarters. Brady has scored in the 4th. Pats lead 30-21. I guess Flacco doesnt need to score anymore. 3 quarters work is enough I suppose

virgilbosetti
09-23-2012, 11:16 PM
It's huge. You may be on to something here brother Maybe Tomlin can put Ben on D, the o line and every position called for a penalty so we could say Ben actually made a contribution. ;)

DBR96A
09-24-2012, 12:14 AM
Ignore the ignorant. I mean literally visit their profiles and select "Add to Ignore List." And if he gets banned and creates another username, just repeat the process.

stopplayn
09-24-2012, 08:38 AM
What would "he" get banned for? Just because you all dont like my opinion? So if you have a differing view you should get banned? Ok well Ban Ben Roethlisberger because he agrees with me. How you can throw a ball 3 feet over a guys head on a 3rd and 9 and be guiltless is beyond me.

"The last third down, they brought the hot," Roethlisberger said.

"Heath [Miller] was the hot guy. We might have gotten 2 yards. I just missed Mike. I have to make that play."



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/roethlisberger-plays-good-game-statistically-teammates-fail-to-measure-up-654637/#ixzz27ODMapdQ

stopplayn
09-24-2012, 08:40 AM
Ignore the ignorant. I mean literally visit their profiles and select "Add to Ignore List." And if he gets banned and creates another username, just repeat the process.

Thx for the tip. I just put you on ignore. Thx bro

Slapstick
09-24-2012, 08:50 AM
If Carson scores 17 points in the 4th and Ben scores 0 then Thats not outplayed?

I wonder if Ben scores 17 in the 4th and Palmer 0 would you say that Palmer outplayed Ben If he led in all those misleading stats? Some how I doubt it

If Ben had been responsible for either of the turnovers, I might be able to see your point...

But, as it turns out, he is not able to complete the pass/handoff and hold onto the ball for the other skill position players...

stopplayn
09-24-2012, 09:04 AM
What about after Tomlin went for it and we got the 1st? Ben had a chance to win it. He failed. So just because he played well for 3 quarters he gets a pass on his failure in the 4th?

By that criteria then shouldnt our Defense too get a pass based on 40 years of leading this team?

Oh by the way Ben agrees with me and thats what I love about the guy. He is a stand up guy

"The last third down, they brought the hot," Roethlisberger said.

"Heath [Miller] was the hot guy. We might have gotten 2 yards. I just missed Mike. I have to make that play."



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/roethlisberger-plays-good-game-statistically-teammates-fail-to-measure-up-654637/#ixzz27ODMapdQ

feltdizz
09-24-2012, 09:17 AM
Ben was great yesterday and I think he is going to put up some great stats in this offense.

The only thing that worries me is the last drive. I know we had penalties but we've ALWAYS had penalties and still overcome them due to Ben's magic. Lately the magic hasn't been there and with this D we will need a few last second drives for W's.

williar
09-24-2012, 10:42 AM
Ben should of had a "great" game. He was playing the raiders. The only team that may currently field worse CB's than ours. Now, Carson Palmer having the game he had was not expected. I don't think he's had a good game since joining the raiders until yesterday. Sad! I chose not to watch the game yesterday. Steeler football just stinks!!

Steelgal
09-24-2012, 01:43 PM
What about after Tomlin went for it and we got the 1st? Ben had a chance to win it. He failed. So just because he played well for 3 quarters he gets a pass on his failure in the 4th?

By that criteria then shouldnt our Defense too get a pass based on 40 years of leading this team?

Oh by the way Ben agrees with me and thats what I love about the guy. He is a stand up guy

"The last third down, they brought the hot," Roethlisberger said.

"Heath [Miller] was the hot guy. We might have gotten 2 yards. I just missed Mike. I have to make that play."



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/roethlisberger-plays-good-game-statistically-teammates-fail-to-measure-up-654637/#ixzz27ODMapdQ

Apparently you've never read quotes from Ben before because he ALWAYS shoulders the blame after a loss, even when it isn't justified. The guy has taken countless sacks over the years. Some because he held the ball too long, but many because he oline screwed up. He never once called them out or shoved them on the field, like Cutler did a few weeks back. He is the consumate professional. Ben will never say anyone else messed up.

If you want to give our defense a pass, then got it during week 1, when Peyton lit them up. That was their 'mulligan'. It's week 3 and they should be playing better. Yes, Troy and James are out, so there's understandably gonna be a drop off. But what they're showing is just flat out terrible. Whether it's the scheme, players, or coaching I don't know but they better get it fixed quick. No one is scared of this defense anymore. It's almost laughable.

Ghost
09-24-2012, 02:45 PM
"It's almost laughable." - Almost, Gal... Not only is there not a single team in the NFL afraid of the Steelers D; they are salivating at the thought of playing these guys. Almost has left the building...

fordfixer
09-24-2012, 10:50 PM
What would "he" get banned for? Just because you all dont like my opinion? So if you have a differing view you should get banned? Ok well Ban Ben Roethlisberger because he agrees with me. How you can throw a ball 3 feet over a guys head on a 3rd and 9 and be guiltless is beyond me.

"The last third down, they brought the hot," Roethlisberger said.

"Heath [Miller] was the hot guy. We might have gotten 2 yards. I just missed Mike. I have to make that play."



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/roethlisberger-plays-good-game-statistically-teammates-fail-to-measure-up-654637/#ixzz27ODMapdQ
We could go with "spam" you turn every thread into a "I hate Ben thread"

rockonsteel
09-25-2012, 12:14 AM
"It's almost laughable." - Almost, Gal... Not only is there not a single team in the NFL afraid of the Steelers D; they are salivating at the thought of playing these guys. Almost has left the building...

And he jumped from a window on the 34th floor!



Rockon

hawaiiansteel
09-25-2012, 01:45 PM
Post-Oakland thoughts

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 2012
posted by Dale Lolley

@ Ben Roethlisberger played an outstanding game, leading the team to 31 points while continuing his hot play on third downs, where the Steelers converted 8 of 14 for the game.

But he once again had a chance to lead a fourth quarter, game-winning drive and failed.

In the past two seasons, Roethlisberger has led exactly one game-winner, and that came against lowly Indianapolis last season.

In his first seven seasons, Roethlisberger led 26 such drives, many of which came when he was, you know, just a game manager.

http://www.observer-reporter.com/or/sidelines/

stopplayn
09-26-2012, 11:28 AM
Apparently you've never read quotes from Ben before because he ALWAYS shoulders the blame after a loss, even when it isn't justified. The guy has taken countless sacks over the years. Some because he held the ball too long, but many because he oline screwed up. He never once called them out or shoved them on the field, like Cutler did a few weeks back. He is the consumate professional. Ben will never say anyone else messed up.

If you want to give our defense a pass, then got it during week 1, when Peyton lit them up. That was their 'mulligan'. It's week 3 and they should be playing better. Yes, Troy and James are out, so there's understandably gonna be a drop off. But what they're showing is just flat out terrible. Whether it's the scheme, players, or coaching I don't know but they better get it fixed quick. No one is scared of this defense anymore. It's almost laughable.

I know Ben takes the blame but does he lie? He is a stand up guy and I love that about him. EVERYONE in the Steeler organization KNOWS the sacks come because of Bens "style'. Only the biased fans THINK its the line. Do you ever wonder how Dixon can start ONE game vs the Ravens and pass for 26 times and have ZERO sacks. Same thing happens when Batch is in. WHEN have we ever had a qb sacked 7 or 8 times when Ben is out? It DOESNT happen. The sack problem is NOT the line. Its Ben.

How do you explan the sack problem under Wiz and Grimm? Shall I post the numbers again? Was our line terrible under Wiz and Grimm? Heck no.

2004
Ben 295 Att 30 sacks
P.Manning 497 Att 13 sacks
Plummer 521 Att 15 sacks
Favre 540 Att 12 sacks

2005
Ben 261 Atts 23 sacks
P.Manning 453 Atts 17 sacks
C.Palmer 509 Atts 19 sacks
Brady 530 Atts 26 sacks

2006
Ben 469 Atts 46 sacks
P.Manning 557 Atts 14 sacks
Brees 554 Atts 18 sacks
Rivers 467 Atts 27 sacks


The evidence is clear

stopplayn
09-26-2012, 11:30 AM
We could go with "spam" you turn every thread into a "I hate Ben thread"

I Dont hate Ben. You just hate my posts about him. Please show me where I have lied on him.

stopplayn
09-26-2012, 11:31 AM
Post-Oakland thoughts

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 2012
posted by Dale Lolley

@ Ben Roethlisberger played an outstanding game, leading the team to 31 points while continuing his hot play on third downs, where the Steelers converted 8 of 14 for the game.

But he once again had a chance to lead a fourth quarter, game-winning drive and failed.

In the past two seasons, Roethlisberger has led exactly one game-winner, and that came against lowly Indianapolis last season.

In his first seven seasons, Roethlisberger led 26 such drives, many of which came when he was, you know, just a game manager.

http://www.observer-reporter.com/or/sidelines/

And this is precisely what I have been saying. The only thing I would add is that he had those 26 comebacks is because for the most part he played poorly prior to coming back.

Eich
09-26-2012, 12:32 PM
And this is precisely what I have been saying. The only thing I would add is that he had those 26 comebacks is because for the most part he played poorly prior to coming back.


So, Ben used to play poorly for 3 quarters and then played great as the comeback-kid in the 4th.

Now, he plays great for 3 quarters and plays poorly in the 4th.

Got it.

What's funny is that all the stats that certain Ben "critics" throw around in support of their theory that he's not one of the elite, can be used against other QBs and they never are. Sacks, Rings, first half rating, second half rating, Playoff wins, overall win/loss record - it doesn't matter. Ben stacks up very well against any QB in the league. He's not perfect. And neither is Peyton, Brady, Rogers, Eli, Rivers, Stafford, etc...

Peyton looks average under pressure and choked in playoffs for years until he relied on something other than his jitterbug passing to get a ring.
Brady hasn't won a ring since he stopped cheating and looks equially average when under pressure and drops like a girl at the sight of a defender in the backfield.
Rogers takes all the sacks that Ben does. His line isn't worse than ours. One-and-done in the playoffs last year.
Rivers - for all the regular season stats he piles up, what has he done?

Try to appreciate the fact that we have a winner of a franchise QB in Ben, even with all his inperfections. Bitching and moaning about his imperfections isn't going to change anything. He is what he is and we've won a LOT of games with him. He won't be around forever and we might have to agonize through another period like we did between Bradshaw and Ben before we find another one.

papillon
09-26-2012, 01:05 PM
So, Ben used to play poorly for 3 quarters and then played great as the comeback-kid in the 4th.

Now, he plays great for 3 quarters and plays poorly in the 4th.

Got it.

What's funny is that all the stats that certain Ben "critics" throw around in support of their theory that he's not one of the elite, can be used against other QBs and they never are. Sacks, Rings, first half rating, second half rating, Playoff wins, overall win/loss record - it doesn't matter. Ben stacks up very well against any QB in the league. He's not perfect. And neither is Peyton, Brady, Rogers, Eli, Rivers, Stafford, etc...

Peyton looks average under pressure and choked in playoffs for years until he relied on something other than his jitterbug passing to get a ring.
Brady hasn't won a ring since he stopped cheating and looks equially average when under pressure and drops like a girl at the sight of a defender in the backfield.
Rogers takes all the sacks that Ben does. His line isn't worse than ours. One-and-done in the playoffs last year.
Rivers - for all the regular season stats he piles up, what has he done?

Try to appreciate the fact that we have a winner of a franchise QB in Ben, even with all his inperfections. Bitching and moaning about his imperfections isn't going to change anything. He is what he is and we've won a LOT of games with him. He won't be around forever and we might have to agonize through another period like we did between Bradshaw and Ben before we find another one.

I've been saying this for years now about Ben. He doesn't play the position in the preconceived way that some fans want him to play, so in their eyes he's not as good as others and never will be. And, because of that style, many believe that he doesn't pre-snap read, can't throw in rhythm, etc, he's been on time, on rhythm for many seasons, but what he can also do if he gets through progressions and doesn't find anybody open is extend the play. For some reason extending the play to try and make a splash play on offense has become a bad thing when Ben does it, but not Rogers, Newton, Stafford, etc.

As I've said before, rather than always looking for the warts enjoy Ben while he's playing, he'll be gone someday and someone like Dixon, Leftwich or Batch will step in and then you'll see exactly how good Ben is/was.

Pappy

RuthlessBurgher
09-26-2012, 01:23 PM
In his first seven seasons, Roethlisberger led 26 such drives, many of which came when he was, you know, just a game manager.

It's also interesting that Brady won 3 Super Bowls when he was only a "game manager" type of QB from 2001 to 2004...since he has become an "elite" type of QB throwing for 4000-5000 yards per year...no Super Bowl victories.

Ghost
09-26-2012, 01:43 PM
I've been saying this for years now about Ben. He doesn't play the position in the preconceived way that some fans want him to play, so in their eyes he's not as good as others and never will be. And, because of that style, many believe that he doesn't pre-snap read, can't throw in rhythm, etc, he's been on time, on rhythm for many seasons, but what he can also do if he gets through progressions and doesn't find anybody open is extend the play. For some reason extending the play to try and make a splash play on offense has become a bad thing when Ben does it, but not Rogers, Newton, Stafford, etc.

As I've said before, rather than always looking for the warts enjoy Ben while he's playing, he'll be gone someday and someone like Dixon, Leftwich or Batch will step in and then you'll see exactly how good Ben is/was.

Pappy

Enjoy it while it lasts is dead on the money. We've got it GREAT. Just in case people have forgotten or aren't old enough to remember:

1984 - 2004:
Cliff Stoudt
Mark Malone (Magnum PI)
David Woodley
Scott Campbell
Bubby Brister
Steve Bono (3rd string on the Vikings b/f Pgh)
Todd Blackledge
Neil O'Donnell
Mike Tomczak
Jim Miller
Kordell Stewart
Kent Grahmn ( I mean what the #$%^...)
Tommy Maddox

stopplayn
09-26-2012, 01:52 PM
So, Ben used to play poorly for 3 quarters and then played great as the comeback-kid in the 4th.

Now, he plays great for 3 quarters and plays poorly in the 4th.

Got it.

What's funny is that all the stats that certain Ben "critics" throw around in support of their theory that he's not one of the elite, can be used against other QBs and they never are. Sacks, Rings, first half rating, second half rating, Playoff wins, overall win/loss record - it doesn't matter. Ben stacks up very well against any QB in the league. He's not perfect. And neither is Peyton, Brady, Rogers, Eli, Rivers, Stafford, etc...

Peyton looks average under pressure and choked in playoffs for years until he relied on something other than his jitterbug passing to get a ring.
Brady hasn't won a ring since he stopped cheating and looks equially average when under pressure and drops like a girl at the sight of a defender in the backfield.
Rogers takes all the sacks that Ben does. His line isn't worse than ours. One-and-done in the playoffs last year.
Rivers - for all the regular season stats he piles up, what has he done?

Try to appreciate the fact that we have a winner of a franchise QB in Ben, even with all his inperfections. Bitching and moaning about his imperfections isn't going to change anything. He is what he is and we've won a LOT of games with him. He won't be around forever and we might have to agonize through another period like we did between Bradshaw and Ben before we find another one.

Peyton Manning doesnt play on the Steelers with Troy Polamalu, James Harrison, Joey Porter and Ryan Clark, He also has been provided with talent the likes of Plaxicon Burress, Jerome Bettis, Rashard Mendenhall, Hines Ward, Mike Wallace, Santonio Holmes, Heath Miller and Antonio Brown. Manning has never had that much talent. IF he had that talent on the Steelers he wouldnt be a one time champ. Despite having a worse Team than Ben Manning has a better head to head record vs Ben. He also has better playoff stats than Ben. Just has a worse TEAM record. That is to be expected because Ben plays on the better team.

Brady cheated? Oh I thought it was bellicheat. Brady had put his team in position to win twice but the D failed him. Its ironic how you guys dont blame OUR QB for late game faliures but yet you blame Brady in similar situations. Hypocrisy.

Aaron Rodgers doesnt take the sacks that Ben does. Ben is the most sacked qb in the league. Followed by Vick or Cutler. Rodgers has proven he is an elite decision maker.

Rivers- See this is more hyporcrisy. You compare Rivers to Ben individually but then you throw a TEAM comparrison in at the end. Rivers has better stats than Ben ON A LESSER TEAM. What do you think those stats would be if Rivers had the supporting cast that Ben has?

Ben is a winner because he is a STEELER. Put him on the Bucs, Browns etc and he has zero rings in my opinion. We have won a lot of games with Kordell too something like 45 in 3 or 4 years. No Super Bowls but did we do all that winning with that BUM because Kordell is great or because the STEELERS are?

I have never called Ben a bum nor am I saying Kordell is equal or better (absurd) KORDELL SUX but we went 13-3 with him. Doesnt mean he is great just means the team is.

stopplayn
09-26-2012, 01:53 PM
It's also interesting that Brady won 3 Super Bowls when he was only a "game manager" type of QB from 2001 to 2004...since he has become an "elite" type of QB throwing for 4000-5000 yards per year...no Super Bowl victories.

Brady put his team up in both of those losses to the Giants. If you blame OUR D for losing the lead last week then why dont you do the same for the Pats D?

stopplayn
09-26-2012, 01:54 PM
Enjoy it while it lasts is dead on the money. We've got it GREAT. Just in case people have forgotten or aren't old enough to remember:

1984 - 2004:
Cliff Stoudt
Mark Malone (Magnum PI)
David Woodley
Scott Campbell
Bubby Brister
Steve Bono (3rd string on the Vikings b/f Pgh)
Todd Blackledge
Neil O'Donnell
Mike Tomczak
Jim Miller
Kordell Stewart
Kent Grahmn ( I mean what the #$%^...)
Tommy Maddox

WHICH one of these qbs is a STARTER? Ben is better than a bunch of career backups. CONGRATULATIONS

fordfixer
09-26-2012, 02:52 PM
I Dont hate Ben. You just hate my posts about him. Please show me where I have lied on him.

O.K. I will type this slowly because you are having a hard time keeping up.I said

We could go with "spam" you turn every thread into a "I hate Ben thread"

I did not say you
have lied on him

Ghost
09-26-2012, 02:57 PM
Where's the thread titled - 'The D was huge for ZERO quaters and insanely horrendous in Q4"? You're an agenda spinning dick. Nothing more.

Captain Lemming
09-26-2012, 04:25 PM
It's also interesting that Brady won 3 Super Bowls when he was only a "game manager" type of QB from 2001 to 2004...since he has become an "elite" type of QB throwing for 4000-5000 yards per year...no Super Bowl victories.

WORD!!!! Money post

Dee Dub
09-26-2012, 05:05 PM
I completely disagree. Ben was huge today. A bright spot in a mistake filled effort from many.....but not Ben. The 4th qrt he was 3 for 4 ? Sacked once and hurried three time...and I think Colin was called for holding. AB fumbled their best drive away. This game was lost because of two turnovers. Abysmal defense and WAY to many penalties.

You are entitled to your opinion sir, but I disagree.

Cha-ching!! Excellent post Virgilbosetti!! You my friend get it. And you are a Godfather fan? Nice.

Dee Dub
09-26-2012, 05:14 PM
What a lot of Ben haters forget about when it comes to that Super Bowl in 2005 was what Ben did the 3 games prior. All on the road. He nearly carried his team to that Super Bowl.

42-72 in passing at 68.3% for 680 yards and 7 TD's to only 1 INT and he also ran for another TD.

stopplayn
09-26-2012, 05:14 PM
Where's the thread titled - 'The D was huge for ZERO quaters and insanely horrendous in Q4"? You're an agenda spinning dick. Nothing more.

What you mean is "I cant refute you so I will be mean". The defense has shown up way more often than the offense so they get a pass.

stopplayn
09-26-2012, 05:16 PM
What a lot of Ben haters forget about when it comes to that Super Bowl in 2005 was what Ben did the 3 games prior. All on the road. He nearly carried his team to that Super Bowl.

42-72 in passing at 68.3% for 680 yards and 7 TD's to only 1 INT and he also ran for another TD.

The three games prior mean nothing if we lose the SB now do they? Is anyone talking about what Ben did prior to our loss in 10? Nope.

virgilbosetti
09-27-2012, 07:15 AM
The three games prior mean nothing if we lose the SB now do they? Is anyone talking about what Ben did prior to our loss in 10? Nope.

But it doesn't change the fact that without his stellar play they would have never made it to the SB. Either way.....Sunday's game is a no brainier. Turnovers. Penalties and horrendous D.

virgilbosetti
09-27-2012, 07:16 AM
Now walk through the door. I'm waiting.

feltdizz
09-27-2012, 09:32 AM
What a lot of Ben haters forget about when it comes to that Super Bowl in 2005 was what Ben did the 3 games prior. All on the road. He nearly carried his team to that Super Bowl.

42-72 in passing at 68.3% for 680 yards and 7 TD's to only 1 INT and he also ran for another TD.

Does the games leading up to the SB apply to all QB's or just Ben?

Ben is having a great year, has a great career as well... but any fan who defends his SB performances (outside of the last drive in 2008) is smoking the crack.

It would be nice for the amazing Ben to show up in SB's from pregame to the last snap but it hasn't happened yet. He definitely gets credit for our success these last 8 years but the SB's(outside of the last drive in 2008) were subpar performances considering his talent level.

Slapstick
09-27-2012, 11:55 AM
It isn't a matter of simply having a good game...SB champions, like Ben, make decisive plays at critical points during those big games...

Although his passer rating was, like, 22 in XL, Ben definitely made critical throws and runs when he had to...

virgilbosetti
09-27-2012, 09:10 PM
it isn't a matter of simply having a good game...sb champions, like ben, make decisive plays at critical points during those big games...

Although his passer rating was, like, 22 in xl, ben definitely made critical throws and runs when he had to...

$$$$$$post

eniparadoxgma
09-27-2012, 09:41 PM
Now walk through the door. I'm waiting.

:Clap:Clap:Clap:Clap:tt2 hahaha

stopplayn
09-28-2012, 08:14 AM
But it doesn't change the fact that without his stellar play they would have never made it to the SB. Either way.....Sunday's game is a no brainier. Turnovers. Penalties and horrendous D.

Thats an absolute statement. Do you have absolute proof that we wouldnt have made it without Ben? Lets see, the Ravens and Bucs can win a SB with Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson but we cant win one with Leftwich or Batch. You are dellusional.

Its ironic that non of you mentioned the THREE picks that Ben threw right to Raider Linebackers and they all dropped them. Ben should have had 3 picks. But I digress

stopplayn
09-28-2012, 08:17 AM
Does the games leading up to the SB apply to all QB's or just Ben?

Ben is having a great year, has a great career as well... but any fan who defends his SB performances (outside of the last drive in 2008) is smoking the crack.

It would be nice for the amazing Ben to show up in SB's from pregame to the last snap but it hasn't happened yet. He definitely gets credit for our success these last 8 years but the SB's(outside of the last drive in 2008) were subpar performances considering his talent level.

Just to Ben. Its sheer hypocrisy. When Peyton Manning plays well (Or Brady) leading up to the SB but lose, then they are chokers. But when Ben does it, there is always an excuse.
Manning played lights out for 3 quarters JUST LIKE BEN DID VS OAK. But Manning failed in the end in the SB by throwing a pick 6 but he is a choker.
Did the Steeler Nation feel the Same about Ben when he did the same thing vs the Broncos? No. There was an excuse. More hypocrisy

Slapstick
09-28-2012, 11:56 AM
Thats an absolute statement. Do you have absolute proof that we wouldnt have made it without Ben? Lets see, the Ravens and Bucs can win a SB with Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson but we cant win one with Leftwich or Batch. You are dellusional.

Its ironic that non of you mentioned the THREE picks that Ben threw right to Raider Linebackers and they all dropped them. Ben should have had 3 picks. But I digress

It's not 2000 or 2002 anymore...

These days, a team needs an elite QB to win the SB...Ben is an elite QB, thankfully...

virgilbosetti
09-28-2012, 01:42 PM
[QUOTE=stopplayn;525749]Thats an absolute statement. Do you have absolute proof that we wouldnt have made it without Ben? Lets see, the Ravens and Bucs can win a SB with Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson but we cant win one with Leftwich or Batch. You are dellusional

Your arrogance offends me and the rate just went up 20%

stopplayn
09-28-2012, 10:08 PM
[QUOTE=stopplayn;525749]Thats an absolute statement. Do you have absolute proof that we wouldnt have made it without Ben? Lets see, the Ravens and Bucs can win a SB with Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson but we cant win one with Leftwich or Batch. You are dellusional

Your arrogance offends me and the rate just went up 20%

Translation: Your posts drip with knowledge and correct stats that I envy you to the eigth power. Ben didnt throw three passes RIGHT at the Raiders LBs and they dropped them all? Dont make me post it lol

hawaiiansteel
09-29-2012, 03:35 AM
As Steelers struggle, Roethlisberger shines

by Associated Press

PITTSBURGH (AP) — Ben Roethlisberger wasn’t sandbagging. At least, not intentionally.

The Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback really did have concerns about how long it would take to develop the rapport necessary to execute Todd Haley’s gameplan without drawing the ire of his sometimes combustible new offensive coordinator.

Turns out, it took less than a month.

While the Steelers (1-2) are off to a sluggish start, the arranged marriage between Roethlisberger and Haley is blossoming. The quarterback ranks second in the NFL with a 109.2 rating and is tied for the league lead with eight touchdowns while completing 68 percent of his passes, five points above his career average.

So much for the concerns about whether Roethlisberger and Haley could co-exist. The two certainly look like they’re on the same page through the season’s first three weeks.

Whether he’s running things out of the no-huddle, firing off a quick hitter to one of the deepest receiving corps in the league or using his legs to extend plays long enough to make something happen, Roethlisberger looks like he’s been working with Haley six years, not six months.

“He’s made very good decisions,” Haley said. “When you see us in quick mode, when the ball is coming out on three-step timing, he’s been tremendous.”

Even if Roethlisberger’s been forced to holster a bit of his inner gunslinger. Defenses have challenged him to stay patient, taking away the deep stuff and making Roethlisberger settle for shorter passes instead of allowing him to let it fly.

Rather than trust his arm, Roethlisberger is trusting the system. The results have been spectacular.

“I think he’s playing as good as any quarterback in the league,” wide receiver Mike Wallace said.

One who isn’t afraid to just make things up as he goes. When Oakland went to press coverage on fourth down in the first quarter last Sunday, Roethlisberger used a hand signal held over from Bruce Arians’ tenure as offensive coordinator to communicate with Wallace about a specific route.

Wallace turned the play into a first down, one of two instances Roethlisberger went old school during a 34-31 loss. The quarterback raised some eyebrows after his 384-yard, four-touchdown performance by hinting he ditched Haley’s playbook in the second half.

Turns out, he didn’t, clarifying on Tuesday he talked to Haley afterward about the hand signals, which are now a permanent part of the offense.

“I know there’s some people out there that were saying that I’m resistant to Todd,” Roethlisberger said. “It’s one of those things, we went to Todd and it’s in the playbook now.”

Call it a show of the growing confidence Roethlisberger and Haley have in each other. At times, Roethlisberger has been almost surgical in his approach. Save for a couple of late-game gambles in a season-opening loss to Denver, the quarterback and the coordinator have been in sync.

“He knows when he’s hearing my voice in his headset and giving him a call that I’m putting him in the best position for him to succeed,” Haley said. “I have to trust him that when I make the call, he’s going to make it work. At this point it’s been really good and I expect it to continue.”

Having a seemingly endless number of targets, helps. The only skill position player who hasn’t caught at least one pass this season is rookie tight end David Paulson.

When defenses have put most of their attention on Pro Bowlers Wallace and Antonio Brown, Roethlisberger has no trouble hitting fullback Will Johnson wheeling out of the backfield. The team’s third-longest play from scrimmage so far isn’t a bomb to Wallace but a 26-yard toss from Roethlisberger to a player who wasn’t even in the league a year ago.

“Ben’s in complete control out there,” left tackle Max Starks said. “Instead of trying to feel his way through and trying to understand this or that, when he goes out there, he knows what he wants to do.”

Maybe it’s just the final step in a nearly decade-long process that’s seen Roethlisberger win a pair of Super Bowls but also make his fair share of headlines for his off-the-field transgressions.

The precocious kid who derailed a title defense in 2006 by wrecking his motor cycle and was suspended four games in 2010 for violating the league’s personal conduct policy turned 30 last spring. He earned his bachelor’s degree from Miami (Ohio) in May and is expecting his first child with wife Ashley this winter.

While not exactly thrilled with the way the team handled Arians’ departure — the Steelers said Arians “retired” in February only to watch him get hired by the Indianapolis Colts a few weeks later — Roethlisberger didn’t pout.

Though he and Haley aren’t unlikely to be BFFs anytime soon, they’re starting to produce the kind of numbers that are reminiscent of the eye-popping totals the Arizona Cardinals put up in 2007-08 when Haley was calling the plays and Kurt Warner was turning Larry Fitzgerald into a superstar.

The Cardinals ended that 2008 season in the Super Bowl, where all Haley could do is watch from the sideline as Roethlisberger led the game-winning touchdown drive in the final moments to give the Steelers their sixth championship.

Now Haley and Roethlisberger are on the same side in Pittsburgh’s pursuit of a record seventh ring, the fiery coordinator and the sometimes stubborn quarterback creating harmony one play at a time.

“Ben can be explosive and he’s off to that start right now and it’s pretty awesome to see,” Starks said. “It’s awesome to see that maturation when he’s on all cylinders.”

http://www.muncyluminary.com/page/content.detail/id/253994/As-Steelers-struggle--Roethlisberger-shines-.html?isap=1&nav=5054

virgilbosetti
09-29-2012, 07:03 AM
I'm sure you're a good dude. I just think you are a Ben hater. He could throw five TDs in a big win and you would say he had one shoe untied. He's not perfect but I'll take my chances with him cause he does a million things right for every mistake ie....the raider game. And some of his miscues are/were aided by poor protection (at times) Now if we could say the sane about the D & the TO's & penalties.....they'd be 2-1 right now.

Flasteel
09-29-2012, 08:56 AM
I'm sure you're a good dude. I just think you are a Ben hater. He could throw five TDs in a big win and you would say he had one shoe untied. He's not perfect but I'll take my chances with him cause he does a million things right for every mistake ie....the raider game. And some of his miscues are/were aided by poor protection (at times) Now if we could say the sane about the D & the TO's & penalties.....they'd be 2-1 right now.

If we could say that about the D, turnovers, and penalties, we'd be 3-0 with no chance of being beat by anyone for as long as it held-up. :D

virgilbosetti
09-29-2012, 11:48 AM
If we could say that about the D, turnovers, and penalties, we'd be 3-0 with no chance of being beat by anyone for as long as it held-up. :D
Good pt sir!

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 09:16 AM
I'm sure you're a good dude. I just think you are a Ben hater. He could throw five TDs in a big win and you would say he had one shoe untied. He's not perfect but I'll take my chances with him cause he does a million things right for every mistake ie....the raider game. And some of his miscues are/were aided by poor protection (at times) Now if we could say the sane about the D & the TO's & penalties.....they'd be 2-1 right now.

Not a Ben hater at all. I just want him to be CONSISTENT. If he is consistent it helps the Steelers. The fact remains that Ben has ben inconsistent his whole career. I dont say "Ben shines" when he should have had three picks in the game. Ben played well vs a bad defense. If Mendenhall runs for good yardage vs the Browns or Raiders you guys would post "After all it is the browns or raiders". You guys are spot on in your criticism of every Steeler EXCEPT BEN. You guys are blinded. Go to a quarterback camp and show me ONE guru who teaches young quarterbacks to play like Ben Roethlisberger. You wont find it and why is that? Because he does too many things wrong. The STEELERS as a team covers up a lot of that wrong.

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 09:18 AM
If we could say that about the D, turnovers, and penalties, we'd be 3-0 with no chance of being beat by anyone for as long as it held-up. :D

To be fair, what about the years (MOST OF THEM) when the Defense has played lights out and the offense was the problem? Do we automatically forget that? The Offense has played pretty good VS BAD DEFENSES and one MINUS REVIS. Lets see what they do vs a good defense.

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 09:20 AM
I'm sure you're a good dude. I just think you are a Ben hater. He could throw five TDs in a big win and you would say he had one shoe untied. He's not perfect but I'll take my chances with him cause he does a million things right for every mistake ie....the raider game. And some of his miscues are/were aided by poor protection (at times) Now if we could say the sane about the D & the TO's & penalties.....they'd be 2-1 right now.

You know and I know that Ben threw three balls right to Raider defenders. Look at the article above. Where is that mentioned? NOWHERE!. Its a journalistic error. Add those 3 ints to his stats and the shine just wore off. Perspective

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 09:28 AM
I'm sure you're a good dude. I just think you are a Ben hater. He could throw five TDs in a big win and you would say he had one shoe untied. He's not perfect but I'll take my chances with him cause he does a million things right for every mistake ie....the raider game. And some of his miscues are/were aided by poor protection (at times) Now if we could say the sane about the D & the TO's & penalties.....they'd be 2-1 right now.

Im a "Ben hater" but its ironic that you cant post ONE lie that I have told on him. That being said. If what I post is the truth (and it must be because what I have said has not been refuted) then why are you upset with me? Be upset with Ben. He is providing the material. Eagles Defense is an elite D and will bring pressure. What will your excuse be after Ben plays mediocre? The Line, Haney, The refs, Bens shoulder, His foot, Dropped passes. Pick one

Slapstick
09-30-2012, 09:35 AM
Im a "Ben hater" but its ironic that you cant post ONE lie that I have told on him. That being said. If what I post is the truth (and it must be because what I have said has not been refuted) then why are you upset with me? Be upset with Ben. He is providing the material. Eagles Defense is an elite D and will bring pressure. What will your excuse be after Ben plays mediocre? The Line, Haney, The refs, Bens shoulder, His foot, Dropped passes. Pick one

And what will be your excuse when he continues to play well?

NJ-STEELER
09-30-2012, 10:39 AM
It would be nice for the amazing Ben to show up in SB's from pregame to the last snap but it hasn't happened yet. He definitely gets credit for our success these last 8 years but the SB's(outside of the last drive in 2008) were subpar performances considering his talent level.

troy has been less then average (considering his talent level) in 3 SBs as well

but, if someone came on here and said he sucks. i would defend him. i think most steeler fans would

virgilbosetti
09-30-2012, 10:44 AM
Im a "Ben hater" but its ironic that you cant post ONE lie that I have told on him. That being said. If what I post is the truth (and it must be because what I have said has not been refuted) then why are you upset with me? Be upset with Ben. He is providing the material. Eagles Defense is an elite D and will bring pressure. What will your excuse be after Ben plays mediocre? The Line, Haney, The refs, Bens shoulder, His foot, Dropped passes. Pick one

Not upset with you at all my man. Wouldn't call you a liar either. Just think that you are off the mark with your criticism of Ben. You are obsessed with any play that doesn't turn out great because it's a desired outcome for you. You are already saying Ben WILL play medocre against Philly because you want it that way. You are a fanatic, and you are truly a Ben hater. No doubt about it.

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 12:24 PM
And what will be your excuse when he continues to play well?

I will be happy as heck!!! I was the same way with a young Polamalu. He sucked early and I was JUST as critical of his play back then. Same with Santonio Holmes. I'm a Steeler fan, I want my guys to fullfil their potential. Oh by the way, Troy Polamalu is now my favorite player. He could easily be replaced by Ben if he became a consistent player.

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 12:27 PM
troy has been less then average (considering his talent level) in 3 SBs as well

but, if someone came on here and said he sucks. i would defend him. i think most steeler fans would

Based on what? Lack of turnovers? Troy changes plays just by being on the field. Its ironic that his peers hold him in high regard in NFL Network rankings. Troy is the best at his position by far. Perspective

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 12:30 PM
Not upset with you at all my man. Wouldn't call you a liar either. Just think that you are off the mark with your criticism of Ben. You are obsessed with any play that doesn't turn out great because it's a desired outcome for you. You are already saying Ben WILL play medocre against Philly because you want it that way. You are a fanatic, and you are truly a Ben hater. No doubt about it.

I want it that way? No, how about its because its a pattern. Since 04 Ben has played badly or mediocre against every good defense most of the time. I have the stats if you would like proof.Why do you think that he has played poorly in all Super Bowls? Its usually against a good defense. Call me a Ben hater all you like, this whole thread is textual proof that I substantiate what I say about him with stats. Oh by the way, I habitually cal Ben GOOD but not elite. A Ben hater would not admit that he was good.

virgilbosetti
09-30-2012, 02:30 PM
You post that Ben almost threw a pick, or that the team didn't scoreagainst the Raiders in the 4th quarter.....or that he'll be mediocre againstthe Eagles. That doesn't prove anything. It’s called self reassurance....reassurance from doubt.

The only thing you prove is that you don't truly understand football, and that you hate Ben. Maybe you can change your nameto StopSayin?

NJ-STEELER
09-30-2012, 03:40 PM
tom brady just threw the ball into a bills defender hands in the end zone.

he dropped the pass, next play pats run it in for a TD

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 06:08 PM
You post that Ben almost threw a pick, or that the team didn't scoreagainst the Raiders in the 4th quarter.....or that he'll be mediocre againstthe Eagles. That doesn't prove anything. It’s called self reassurance....reassurance from doubt.

The only thing you prove is that you don't truly understand football, and that you hate Ben. Maybe you can change your nameto StopSayin?

Its called stating the facts. The Eagles statement is called a prediction. I dont hate Ben but you want me to. If it will make you sleep better then I agree with you ok? lol

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 06:11 PM
tom brady just threw the ball into a bills defender hands in the end zone.

he dropped the pass, next play pats run it in for a TD

Trying to compare Ben to Brady? How about head to head? Brady leads despite being on a worse team. If Brady had Ben's team then the Steelers would win 70 straight. See how many points Brady scores? Yes, he does that consistently. You NEVER hear any offensive woes whear there is an elite Qb. You know in NE, NO,SD,NYG, Den,GB,ATL,Hou etc.

NJ-STEELER
09-30-2012, 06:55 PM
you give ben anyone of those offenses (aside from SD and denver..what have they done recently) and he'll put up more points and "look good"

thats how there teams are built. atlanta last year traded up to #6 to draft one of the top receivers in the draft. someone who can beat even double teams with his size and speed.

and get this. they already had a good #1 receiver in roddy white

yet, mr eltie amtt ryan got shut out in the playoffs last year

Slapstick
09-30-2012, 07:28 PM
Trying to compare Ben to Brady? How about head to head? Brady leads despite being on a worse team. If Brady had Ben's team then the Steelers would win 70 straight. See how many points Brady scores? Yes, he does that consistently. You NEVER hear any offensive woes whear there is an elite Qb.

Except in those last two SBs Brady played in...

I definitely heard some "offensive woes"...

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 07:50 PM
you give ben anyone of those offenses (aside from SD and denver..what have they done recently) and he'll put up more points and "look good"

thats how there teams are built. atlanta last year traded up to #6 to draft one of the top receivers in the draft. someone who can beat even double teams with his size and speed.

and get this. they already had a good #1 receiver in roddy white

yet, mr eltie amtt ryan got shut out in the playoffs last year

And Ben got beat by TIM TEBOW. Ryan is better and smarter than Ben.

stopplayn
09-30-2012, 07:52 PM
Except in those last two SBs Brady played in...

I definitely heard some "offensive woes"...
You mean those two Super Bowls where Brady put his team up and the defense let the Giants come back and score? See the hypocrisy? Brady is a loser but when Ben does it under the same circumstances its the DEFENSES FAULT. When Brady does it, its Bradys fault.

This post is Exhibit A.

NJ-STEELER
09-30-2012, 09:06 PM
brady's offense in that 1st SB loss was setting records for points scored and then went on to post 14 points

you think that is playing up to the standard that year

NJ-STEELER
09-30-2012, 09:08 PM
Ryan is better and smarter than Ben.

im sure you think that. im sure you think 2/3 or maybe more of the QBs in the league are better then ben

Slapstick
09-30-2012, 11:02 PM
You mean those two Super Bowls where Brady put his team up and the defense let the Giants come back and score? See the hypocrisy? Brady is a loser but when Ben does it under the same circumstances its the DEFENSES FAULT. When Brady does it, its Bradys fault.

This post is Exhibit A.

There are a couple of things wrong with your post...

1) I never said Brady was a loser. The dude has three rings. He's not a loser. You said that, not me...

2) I did say "offensive woes". The 2007 Patriots were 16-0 and averaged nearly 37 points per game. In the SB, they put up 14. Hence, "offensive woes".

3) The 2011 Patriots averaged over 32 points per game and put up 17 in the SB. See #2.

4) One of us started this thread entitled, "Ben Was Huge For 3 Quarters" and started the original post with, "But it's a 4 quarter game." So, you specifically started this post to rip Bren Roethlisberger, but defend Brady for losing in a similar circumstance...

You, sir, are the hypocrite...your own post was Exhibit A...

Captain Lemming
09-30-2012, 11:36 PM
There are a couple of things wrong with your post...

1) I never said Brady was a loser. The dude has three rings. He's not a loser. You said that, not me...

2) I did say "offensive woes". The 2007 Patriots were 16-0 and averaged nearly 37 points per game. In the SB, they put up 14. Hence, "offensive woes".

3) The 2011 Patriots averaged over 32 points per game and put up 17 in the SB. See #2.

4) One of us started this thread entitled, "Ben Was Huge For 3 Quarters" and started the original post with, "But it's a 4 quarter game." So, you specifically started this post to rip Bren Roethlisberger, but defend Brady for losing in a similar circumstance...

You, sir, are the hypocrite...your own post was Exhibit A...

Ouch......backatcha post using sweet logic........that must STING. :)

Slapstick
10-01-2012, 06:11 AM
Ouch......backatcha post using sweet logic........that must STING. :)

Typing it almost made my eyes water...and it's my post!! :p

feltdizz
10-01-2012, 11:29 AM
troy has been less then average (considering his talent level) in 3 SBs as well

but, if someone came on here and said he sucks. i would defend him. i think most steeler fans would

Troy hasn't performed well in SB's... and it wouldn't make sense to tout his play in those SB's if you were comparing him to another safety with 3 rings and 2 SB losses. (if that makes any sense, lol)

and I don't think stopplayin believes what he types.. he likes the attention.

stopplayn
10-02-2012, 08:22 AM
brady's offense in that 1st SB loss was setting records for points scored and then went on to post 14 points

you think that is playing up to the standard that year

You mean when Brady was a youngster? Brady still have better stats than Ben did when he was younger. If you want to compare Ben to Brady this will be easy. Oh by the way. The NFL players say that Brady is better than Ben. Fact

stopplayn
10-02-2012, 08:28 AM
There are a couple of things wrong with your post...

1) I never said Brady was a loser. The dude has three rings. He's not a loser. You said that, not me...

2) I did say "offensive woes". The 2007 Patriots were 16-0 and averaged nearly 37 points per game. In the SB, they put up 14. Hence, "offensive woes".

3) The 2011 Patriots averaged over 32 points per game and put up 17 in the SB. See #2.

4) One of us started this thread entitled, "Ben Was Huge For 3 Quarters" and started the original post with, "But it's a 4 quarter game." So, you specifically started this post to rip Bren Roethlisberger, but defend Brady for losing in a similar circumstance...

You, sir, are the hypocrite...your own post was Exhibit A...

Offensive woes dont come about after ONE game. Offensive woes come about over a period of time.Brady has has Weis, Mcdaniel and Obrien as OC and it has never hindered him. Brady is the PRIMARY reason the Pats are elite. The defense is the reason the Steelers are elite. How many team MVPS does Ben have? Its seems the Steelers view him as I do. Good but not elite. I didnt rip Ben. You view it as ripping because you HATE what I say about Ben ( YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH).Brady keeps his team in the game vs the Giants. Ben played those SAME Giants in 08 and had FIVE turnovers and we lost big. Put Bens stats vs the Giants up and compare them to Bradys. TELL ME WHAT YOU FIND LOL

stopplayn
10-02-2012, 08:29 AM
Troy hasn't performed well in SB's... and it wouldn't make sense to tout his play in those SB's if you were comparing him to another safety with 3 rings and 2 SB losses. (if that makes any sense, lol)

and I don't think stopplayin believes what he types.. he likes the attention.


Sounds like you're are hating

stopplayn
10-02-2012, 08:33 AM
Troy hasn't performed well in SB's... and it wouldn't make sense to tout his play in those SB's if you were comparing him to another safety with 3 rings and 2 SB losses. (if that makes any sense, lol)

and I don't think stopplayin believes what he types.. he likes the attention.

How did Troy play poorly in SB 40? Do explain. In SB 43 and 45 he was injured and according to Wizenhunt made then run the ball more in the 1st half (trying to avoid Troy). Rodgers avoided Troy and targeted Clark. Too bad you all are die hard fans and dont understand the intricasies of a scheme. YOU DONT HAVE TO MAKE PLAYS to have an effect on Defense. Troy's mere pressence make a difference in where you will attack. Did you see Peyton Manning in week 1? The REST of the league has the same respect for Polamalu just check every poll. Why doesnt Ben get the same respect from his peers?

stopplayn
10-02-2012, 08:40 AM
If you dont see Joe Flacco improving at a faster pace than our Qb then you are BLIND

ikestops85
10-02-2012, 12:49 PM
If you dont see Joe Flacco improving at a faster pace than our Qb then you are BLIND

You might think Flacco is improving at a faster pace but in reality it's just that he was so far behind Ben from the start.

feltdizz
10-02-2012, 06:10 PM
How did Troy play poorly in SB 40? Do explain. In SB 43 and 45 he was injured and according to Wizenhunt made then run the ball more in the 1st half (trying to avoid Troy). Rodgers avoided Troy and targeted Clark. Too bad you all are die hard fans and dont understand the intricasies of a scheme. YOU DONT HAVE TO MAKE PLAYS to have an effect on Defense. Troy's mere pressence make a difference in where you will attack. Did you see Peyton Manning in week 1? The REST of the league has the same respect for Polamalu just check every poll. Why doesnt Ben get the same respect from his peers?

lol... if someone pointed out the game planning and defensive schemes teams had to run to defend against a second year QB who is the size of a LB you wouldn't allow it.


We weren't even discussing presence.. we were talking about playing up to ones standards

Sugar
10-02-2012, 06:46 PM
This thread amuses me. Here we are 11 pages in. SMH

The fact is that Ben Roethlisberger is the very best QB the Pittsburgh Steelers have EVER had. EVER. Are there things about his game that some might want to change? Sure. That doesn't take away from the fact that for better or worse, he is the best player at his position in the history of this storied franchise.

Slapstick
10-02-2012, 08:54 PM
Offensive woes dont come about after ONE game. Offensive woes come about over a period of time.Brady has has Weis, Mcdaniel and Obrien as OC and it has never hindered him. Brady is the PRIMARY reason the Pats are elite. The defense is the reason the Steelers are elite. How many team MVPS does Ben have? Its seems the Steelers view him as I do. Good but not elite. I didnt rip Ben. You view it as ripping because you HATE what I say about Ben ( YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH).Brady keeps his team in the game vs the Giants. Ben played those SAME Giants in 08 and had FIVE turnovers and we lost big. Put Bens stats vs the Giants up and compare them to Bradys. TELL ME WHAT YOU FIND LOL

And yet, you answer none of my points...

Perhaps you should follow the advice of your own screen name and stop playing...

Because in all of the drivel you posted above, you could not deny the hypocrisy you accuse others of having...

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
10-02-2012, 10:41 PM
4th quarter stats please. Carson Palmer was 11-14 123 yards and 2tds and 1 fg for 17 points and the W

Now list Bens 4th quarter stats. You know the ones that mean something?

Fourth Q stats? Okay, how is this.........

Ben has 20 career 4th Q comebacks - tied for 18th all-time

Palmer has 12 and is tied for 73rd

eniparadoxgma
10-02-2012, 10:51 PM
Really don't know why you guys bother. It should be obvious that a poster like the one above will take whatever facts you give him and ignore them if they don't fit their personal agenda, then try to find another stat to misinterpret. These people are not interested in rational discourse. They are interested in their own agenda and ignore all else to that end.

For example, even though he himself asked for 4th quarter stats and were given these:


Ben has 20 career 4th Q comebacks - tied for 18th all-time

Palmer has 12 and is tied for 73rd

...now he will find a way to fixate on something else and downplay those statistics. "I was talking about <insert some other stat involving the 4th quarter>". It's called moving the goalposts and no matter how many times these types of people are proven wrong they will just ignore the facts and move on to a different imagined stat that is all of a sudden so much more important than the last.

This is really just a waste of bandwidth IMO. (And so is my bitching about it, but hey, I feel better)

hawaiiansteel
10-02-2012, 11:09 PM
Fourth Q stats? Okay, how is this.........

Ben has 20 career 4th Q comebacks - tied for 18th all-time

Palmer has 12 and is tied for 73rd

all 12 of Carson Palmer's 4th quarter comebacks probably came against Dick LeBeau...;)

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 08:31 AM
You might think Flacco is improving at a faster pace but in reality it's just that he was so far behind Ben from the start.

That means what? He is supposed to be behind Ben, he is younger. But if you dont see it you are in denial

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 08:34 AM
This thread amuses me. Here we are 11 pages in. SMH

The fact is that Ben Roethlisberger is the very best QB the Pittsburgh Steelers have EVER had. EVER. Are there things about his game that some might want to change? Sure. That doesn't take away from the fact that for better or worse, he is the best player at his position in the history of this storied franchise.

You're nuts. Terry Bradshaw is. He was HUGE in Big games. He habitually beat the Cowboys, Raiders and whoever. He was a LEAGUE MVP AND two time SB MVP. He as GREAT in the SB whereas Ben sux. Ben also plays mediocre vs elite Defenses. But you have your opinion

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 08:35 AM
And yet, you answer none of my points...

Perhaps you should follow the advice of your own screen name and stop playing...

Because in all of the drivel you posted above, you could not deny the hypocrisy you accuse others of having...

Translation: I cant refute your most excellent post so I will namecall

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 08:39 AM
Fourth Q stats? Okay, how is this.........

Ben has 20 career 4th Q comebacks - tied for 18th all-time

Palmer has 12 and is tied for 73rd

4th quarter comebacks mean squat when you have an elite team. WHY ARE YOU LOSING LATE? Because you underachieved the whole game. Comebacks are great IF you are on a bad team. Would you give Jordan props for having to COMEBACK? No, because he has the best team and shouldnt NEED to comeback. Same with Lebron and any other frontrunner. You dont give frontrunners (elite teams) props for COMING BACK so often. Thats called UNDERACHIEVING. look at all the other qbs on the list. PLAYED ON BAD TEAMS. If you are on a bad team, then a comeback stat is relevant. If you are on a good team then your quarterback is underachieving. In this case your post proves my point. Thx bro

Slapstick
10-03-2012, 08:41 AM
Translation: I cant refute your most excellent post so I will namecall

Namecall? That's what you're going with?

What name did I call you? When?

Please, enlighten me with another "most excellent post"...

It's just a way for you to deflect attention from the fact that you were decisively proven wrong...

You want me to call you a name?

Troll.

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 08:42 AM
Really don't know why you guys bother. It should be obvious that a poster like the one above will take whatever facts you give him and ignore them if they don't fit their personal agenda, then try to find another stat to misinterpret. These people are not interested in rational discourse. They are interested in their own agenda and ignore all else to that end.

For example, even though he himself asked for 4th quarter stats and were given these:



...now he will find a way to fixate on something else and downplay those statistics. "I was talking about <insert some other stat involving the 4th quarter>". It's called moving the goalposts and no matter how many times these types of people are proven wrong they will just ignore the facts and move on to a different imagined stat that is all of a sudden so much more important than the last.

This is really just a waste of bandwidth IMO. (And so is my bitching about it, but hey, I feel better)

Sorry, Agendas cant be supported without Facts. I supply those. Its funny that the NFL players agree with me. Dont you find that noteworthy? Nope because it doesnt fit your agenda lol

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 08:55 AM
When our Defense doesnt play well, we cannot rely on Ben Roethlisberger to put this team on his back and be successful (See 09). That means he is NOT the primary reason that we are elite. Thats what separates him From the Mannings, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Rodgers and Matt Ryan.

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 08:56 AM
Thats my only point. Ben is GOOD just not elite. I have never said the guy sucked. I just said he is not elite (yet). Could that change? LETS HOPE SO

Slapstick
10-03-2012, 09:03 AM
When our Defense doesnt play well, we cannot rely on Ben Roethlisberger to put this team on his back and be successful (See 09).

SB XLIII? Have you forgotten?

Ghost
10-03-2012, 10:46 AM
The Myth of Flacco:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8434708/the-numbers-never-lie-ravens-fueled-their-defense

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 11:49 AM
SB XLIII? Have you forgotten?

Our Defense scored a TD and kept high powered WARNER and FITZ/BOLDIN under wraps for THREE quarters while our offense SUCKED. That game should have been a blowout. It was close becaue our Offenses sucked. That last drive was MORE Tone than Ben. HENCE THE MVP

Slapstick
10-03-2012, 11:56 AM
Our Defense scored a TD and kept high powered WARNER and FITZ/BOLDIN under wraps for THREE quarters while our offense SUCKED. That game should have been a blowout. It was close becaue our Offenses sucked. That last drive was MORE Tone than Ben. HENCE THE MVP

Yet, in the 4th quarter, after the defense gave up a lead, Ben Roethlisberger threw the winning TD pass to Santonio Holmes...as a result, the Steelers brought home a sixth Lombardi trophy...

As you stated in the original post, it's a 4 quarter game...

And, again, you defend a guy like Brady who lost the SB twice in similar circumstances...

That's the hypocrisy...

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 12:03 PM
Tone had an a lot of yac and gets no credit for the Steeler Nation. Tone made a great catch and toe placement but gets no credit from Steeler Nation. However, the dropped pass in the endzone the Steeler Nation gives him credit for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDpBG8Le0_k

Slapstick
10-03-2012, 12:07 PM
Tone had an a lot of yac and gets no credit for the Steeler Nation. Tone made a great catch and toe placement but gets no credit from Steeler Nation. However, the dropped pass in the endzone the Steeler Nation gives him credit for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDpBG8Le0_k

I gave Santonio credit then as I give him credit now...

But, someone threw him the pass...

Just as someone catches the passes of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, etc....

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 12:07 PM
Yet, in the 4th quarter, after the defense gave up a lead, Ben Roethlisberger threw the winning TD pass to Santonio Holmes...as a result, the Steelers brought home a sixth Lombardi trophy...

As you stated in the original post, it's a 4 quarter game...

And, again, you defend a guy like Brady who lost the SB twice in similar circumstances...

That's the hypocrisy...

Gave up a lead that they HELPED get. They gave Ben a 20-7 cushion. I defend Brady because he has CONSISTENTLY played Elite and he put his team in position to win. He did his job. Brady doesnt play defense. He just got outplayed by Eli (Another Elite qb) No hypocrisy its the SAME standard I started the thread by. Eli outplayed Brady just like Ben was outplayed by Palmer. Now if I said that Brady outplayed Eli (which I did not) THEN you could claim hypocrisy

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 12:08 PM
I gave Santonio credit then as I give him credit now...

But, someone threw him the pass...

Just as someone catches the passes of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, etc....

Did someone Help him run in excess of 30 yards of yac on that drive? THATS why he won the MVP. He did a lot more than just CATCH the ball

Slapstick
10-03-2012, 12:09 PM
Gave up a lead that they HELPED get. They gave Ben a 20-7 cushion. I defend Brady because he has CONSISTENTLY played Elite and he put his team in position to win. He did his job. Brady doesnt play defense. He just got outplayed by Eli (Another Elite qb) No hypocrisy its the SAME standard I started the thread by. Eli outplayed Brady just like Ben was outplayed by Palmer. Now if I said that Brady outplayed Eli (which I did not) THEN you could claim hypocrisy

The hypocrisy is having a different standard for Ben as you do for the "elite", IYO, QBs...

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 12:20 PM
The hypocrisy is having a different standard for Ben as you do for the "elite", IYO, QBs...

What standard is different? I said Eli outplayed Brady just like Palmer outplayed Ben. Eli won late therefore he outplayed Brady. HOW is that hypocrisy?

Slapstick
10-03-2012, 01:26 PM
What standard is different? I said Eli outplayed Brady just like Palmer outplayed Ben. Eli won late therefore he outplayed Brady. HOW is that hypocrisy?

But, that isn't how you started this thread...

This is exactly what Eniparadoxgma meant by "moving the goalposts"...you simply pretend to ignore any evidence presented that disproves you, change your argument, and then behave as though the new argument is what you were saying all along...

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 02:32 PM
Its exactly how I started the thread. Youre mad because you cant corner me into your thought process. Sorry
What evidence? Who disproved me?

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 02:34 PM
But its a 4 quarter game. Ben was shut out in the 4th and Carson made the big plays. I do see improvement in Bens game though. However, I would like to see how well he does vs a good defense before I say he has turned the corner. I like what I see though.

This is the ORIGINAL post sir. VERY consistent to what I said about Eli/Brady. Moved the goal posts? You are reaching.

Slapstick
10-03-2012, 03:18 PM
This is an example of changing the goal posts...


Aaron Rodgers doesnt take the sacks that Ben does. Ben is the most sacked qb in the league. Followed by Vick or Cutler. Rodgers has proven he is an elite decision maker.

...and then Rodgers gets sacked 8 times in a game...

virgilbosetti
10-03-2012, 09:29 PM
.....doods been getting his teeth kicked in for a wek, and he just keeps on coming. :D

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 10:01 PM
This is an example of changing the goal posts...



...and then Rodgers gets sacked 8 times in a game...

My original post was not about Rodgers. It was about Ben playing well for 3 quarters. Rodgers was mentioned so lets go there. Is Rodgers sacked as much as Ben? You cite ONE game. Ben got sacked NINE times vs the Eagles in 08. AGAIN, Rodgers DOES NOT take the sacks that Ben does. YOU LOSE

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 10:31 PM
Please show me a stat like this about Rogers.

Roethlisberger wound up one short of tying Cliff Stoudt's 1983 team record when he was sacked 50 times in 2009. He has been sacked 34 times this season, on pace for about the usual 45. Over four consecutive seasons (2006 through 2009), he was never sacked fewer than 46 times. That string ended last season when he served a four-game suspension and was sacked 32 times.

At this pace, Roethlisberger will be sacked more than any quarterback in history -- provided he survives to play that long -- even though opposing coaches and players often talk about how difficult it is to tackle him.

Roethlisberger's 308 ranks him fifth among active players behind Mark Brunell (390), Kerry Collins (337), Matt Hasselbeck (324) and Jon Kitna (323). Some others: Tom Brady 265, Joe Montana 313, Dan Marino 270, Peyton Manning 231, Steve Young 358.



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/sacks-of-trouble-for-big-ben-223299/#ixzz28IFOlcW3

stopplayn
10-03-2012, 10:34 PM
People STILL think that Ben should have won the MVP. Really? Lets look at the stats of the 2 objectively. In my opinion Holmes had excellent stats for a receiver. Does Ben have excellent stats for a quarterback? Of course he does

S. Holmes 9 131 1 40

B. Roethlisberger 21/30 256 1 1

grotonsteel
10-04-2012, 02:29 AM
People STILL think that Ben should have won the MVP. Really? Lets look at the stats of the 2 objectively. In my opinion Holmes had excellent stats for a receiver. Does Ben have excellent stats for a quarterback? Of course he does

S. Holmes 9 131 1 40

B. Roethlisberger 21/30 256 1 1

Lets look at this way...Santonio Holmes dropped a sitter just before making the play of the game...Holmes was lucky that Ben came back to him. Holmes was not Ben's first read on that play. Ben made it happen.

Holmes is struggling with Sanchez as QB. Ben made Holmes look like all-pro. He ain't one though

Slapstick
10-04-2012, 06:31 AM
My original post was not about Rodgers.

Correct. You moved the goal posts.

feltdizz
10-04-2012, 09:02 AM
Lets look at this way...Santonio Holmes dropped a sitter just before making the play of the game...Holmes was lucky that Ben came back to him. Holmes was not Ben's first read on that play. Ben made it happen.

Holmes is struggling with Sanchez as QB. Ben made Holmes look like all-pro. He ain't one though

ehhh... Holmes is a very good WR and Sanchez would make Jerry Rice look like a scrub.

The TD by was a great play by Ben and Holmes and neither would make it happen without the other one doing something amazing.

stopplayn
10-04-2012, 12:42 PM
Lets look at this way...Santonio Holmes dropped a sitter just before making the play of the game...Holmes was lucky that Ben came back to him. Holmes was not Ben's first read on that play. Ben made it happen.

Holmes is struggling with Sanchez as QB. Ben made Holmes look like all-pro. He ain't one though

So we should look at the Tones drop that DIDNT have an effect on the game and Disregard Bens PICK that did have an effect? Ben made it happen? Uh Ben ADMITTED that he thought he threw a pick and lost the game. Steve Sabol said the CATCH (not the throw) was the BEST in the history of the SUPER BOWL. Ben made Tone? I guess you forgot about Tone ability to run after the catch, that boosted Bens stats. Oh by the way Ben had his BEST statistical seasons WITH TONE (07,09). Everyone struggles with Sanchez, he is a backup. Again, Ben is better than a backup. Congratulations. Tone singlehandedly KILLED THE RAVENS. Ben only did Once. Fact

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s375nWjYzQg&feature=related

stopplayn
10-04-2012, 12:43 PM
Correct. You moved the goal posts.

No, I merely brought up an elite qb and compared him to ours and you DONT LIKE IT because the obvious is clear.

stopplayn
10-04-2012, 12:43 PM
ehhh... Holmes is a very good WR and Sanchez would make Jerry Rice look like a scrub.

The TD by was a great play by Ben and Holmes and neither would make it happen without the other one doing something amazing.

I can agree with this. Tone and Ben were a great combo

stopplayn
10-04-2012, 12:45 PM
Please show me a stat like this about Rogers.

Roethlisberger wound up one short of tying Cliff Stoudt's 1983 team record when he was sacked 50 times in 2009. He has been sacked 34 times this season, on pace for about the usual 45. Over four consecutive seasons (2006 through 2009), he was never sacked fewer than 46 times. That string ended last season when he served a four-game suspension and was sacked 32 times.

At this pace, Roethlisberger will be sacked more than any quarterback in history -- provided he survives to play that long -- even though opposing coaches and players often talk about how difficult it is to tackle him.

Roethlisberger's 308 ranks him fifth among active players behind Mark Brunell (390), Kerry Collins (337), Matt Hasselbeck (324) and Jon Kitna (323). Some others: Tom Brady 265, Joe Montana 313, Dan Marino 270, Peyton Manning 231, Steve Young 358.



Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/sacks-of-trouble-for-big-ben-223299/#ixzz28IFOlcW3

Notice slapstick couldnt refute this post. I didnt move the goal posts I KNOCKED THEM DOWN LOL

feltdizz
10-04-2012, 01:03 PM
Rodgers was sacked a ton early in his career and lost his first playoff game on a sack fumble in OT if I recall correctly....

he learned from his mistakes and concussions that he couldn't take those types of hits and survive...

8 sacks in a half has to be a record. i noticed they went max protect the rest of the game.

stopplayn
10-04-2012, 01:10 PM
Rodgers took those sacks as a early starter. Once he learned to read defenses PRE SNAP then the numbers dropped. How many times did we get to him in the Super Bowl?

Ben is a sack machine waiting to happen. Its not the line, Its not Arians, its Ben and indecision. Vick is exactly the same way (slow to process the information) Lebeau needs to come at him OFTEN

Slapstick
10-04-2012, 03:28 PM
Notice slapstick couldnt refute this post. I didnt move the goal posts I KNOCKED THEM DOWN LOL

...and then put them back up again in a completely different location, pretending that they had been in the new location all along...

It's okay to stick with one argument and then defend it, as opposed to simply changing the argument to something that you perceive as more defensible whenever you feel threatened...

RuthlessBurgher
10-04-2012, 04:08 PM
My original post was not about Rodgers. It was about Ben playing well for 3 quarters. Rodgers was mentioned so lets go there. Is Rodgers sacked as much as Ben? You cite ONE game. Ben got sacked NINE times vs the Eagles in 08. AGAIN, Rodgers DOES NOT take the sacks that Ben does. YOU LOSE

Good job comparing Rodgers' game last week to a game Ben played 4 years ago (but while we're here, in that game, Ben got sacked 8 times...the Iggles 9th sack was of Byron Leftwich).

feltdizz
10-04-2012, 04:15 PM
Rodgers took those sacks as a early starter. Once he learned to read defenses PRE SNAP then the numbers dropped. How many times did we get to him in the Super Bowl?

Ben is a sack machine waiting to happen. Its not the line, Its not Arians, its Ben and indecision. Vick is exactly the same way (slow to process the information) Lebeau needs to come at him OFTEN

It was Arians and Ben.... I know you won't admit it but Ben hasn't taken anywhere near the number of sacks this year... he is dumping it off, theories are shorter and the hot is recognizing when he is hot and making proper adjustments.

I also think we will see another clinic by Vick because our LB's and DB's are horrible when ot comes to lateral movement. Vick has lost a step but we always looks like Elway when he plays us.

NJ-STEELER
10-04-2012, 04:59 PM
Anyone got elways stats when he won SB MVP?


How about Eli's 1st?

stopplayn
10-04-2012, 07:31 PM
...and then put them back up again in a completely different location, pretending that they had been in the new location all along...

It's okay to stick with one argument and then defend it, as opposed to simply changing the argument to something that you perceive as more defensible whenever you feel threatened...

I didnt change anything, I just added more evidence to the PILE that I have made in regards to our OFT sacked qb. You look for an "out' because you stepped in a big pile of doo doo and you cant get out and you need a way out. I understand.

stopplayn
10-04-2012, 07:32 PM
Anyone got elways stats when he won SB MVP?


How about Eli's 1st?

Post a Giant with Better stats than Eli like I did

Slapstick
10-04-2012, 08:36 PM
I didnt change anything, I just added more evidence to the PILE that I have made in regards to our OFT sacked qb. You look for an "out' because you stepped in a big pile of doo doo and you cant get out and you need a way out. I understand.

Out of what? You didn't do anything...

eniparadoxgma
10-04-2012, 10:10 PM
Good job comparing Rodgers' game last week to a game Ben played 4 years ago (but while we're here, in that game, Ben got sacked 8 times...the Iggles 9th sack was of Byron Leftwich).

If that's the Eagles game I'm thinking of the majority of those sacks were not on Ben. That one game sticks out in my memory as the worst performance by an O-Line I have ever seen...and that was one of the many years where our O-Line was very very bad.

stopplayn
10-04-2012, 10:21 PM
If that's the Eagles game I'm thinking of the majority of those sacks were not on Ben. That one game sticks out in my memory as the worst performance by an O-Line I have ever seen...and that was one of the many years where our O-Line was very very bad.

Yeah, my bad the 9 sacks came against the Browns. The sacks are NEVER on Ben its always the line, the foot, the shoulder, Arians, the woman in vegas... Its funny the MOMMENT Ben went out the sack problem stopped. Leftwich was killing the blitz as we marched down the field. Not Saying Lefty is better (just smarter). Did you see that STUPID saftey Ben gave them? Yep the Lines fault, I get it

NJ-STEELER
10-04-2012, 10:36 PM
Post a Giant with Better stats than Eli like I did

tuck and osi had 2 sacks each with the defense getting 6 total while holding the most prolific offense in NFL history to 14 points

NJ-STEELER
10-04-2012, 10:38 PM
was it the safety where they had 7 in to block (miller and RB) and the eagles rushed 4 and still came thru like gang busters

yikes

Slapstick
10-05-2012, 06:28 AM
Yeah, my bad the 9 sacks came against the Browns. The sacks are NEVER on Ben its always the line, the foot, the shoulder, Arians, the woman in vegas... Its funny the MOMMENT Ben went out the sack problem stopped. Leftwich was killing the blitz as we marched down the field. Not Saying Lefty is better (just smarter). Did you see that STUPID saftey Ben gave them? Yep the Lines fault, I get it

So, the negatives are all because of Ben, but the positive accomplishments (ie. SB wins) are all because of everybody on the team but Ben?

Sure, have it both ways...no one will notice...

stopplayn
10-05-2012, 08:27 AM
tuck and osi had 2 sacks each with the defense getting 6 total while holding the most prolific offense in NFL history to 14 points

So two sacks warrants an MVP? Then by that standard then why arent you arguing for Deebo to be MVP in the SB? Sorry, I think Mannings last drive (yes it was a lot of luck involved) was more impressive. Then Eli did it again to show you he is the PRIMARY reason the Giants are elite

stopplayn
10-05-2012, 08:29 AM
So, the negatives are all because of Ben, but the positive accomplishments (ie. SB wins) are all because of everybody on the team but Ben?

Sure, have it both ways...no one will notice...

Nice try Skip Bayless. I have repeatedly said BEN IS GOOD. That means he contributes to our wins, A LOT. He is just not the PRIMARY reason we are elite. The Defense is. This whold thread is textual proof of that statement. Sure you can TRY to dig up a bs arguement only to have me come back and dice you up again. Sucks huh?

stopplayn
10-05-2012, 08:31 AM
was it the safety where they had 7 in to block (miller and RB) and the eagles rushed 4 and still came thru like gang busters

yikes

I posted the footage and we didnt max protect. Ben was just in a funk that night and couldnt process. The problem stopped immediately once a qb who can quickly read a D came in

Slapstick
10-05-2012, 08:41 AM
First the backpedal...


Nice try Skip Bayless. I have repeatedly said BEN IS GOOD. That means he contributes to our wins, A LOT.

Then the change-up!!


He is just not the PRIMARY reason we are elite. The Defense is. This whold thread is textual proof of that statement. Sure you can TRY to dig up a bs arguement only to have me come back and dice you up again. Sucks huh?

Argument changed. Goalposts moved.

668

stopplayn
10-05-2012, 08:58 AM
In a debate, arguements change because OTHERS bring up different points. I am in this thread alone vs the whole board and you dont think that can derail an argument? Course not. Fact remains that I have consistently said that Ben is good and NOT elite. You dont like that statement NOR can you refute it so your next stance is to nit pick my arguments.

Why dont you TRY To prove that Ben is the PRIMARY reason we are ellte. YOU CANT. I have said Ben is good REPEATEDLY on this board (No changup) you just cant refute what I post and its a glaring reality. Palmer STILL Outplayed Ben in the 4th. FACT

eniparadoxgma
10-05-2012, 09:01 AM
Yeah, my bad the 9 sacks came against the Browns.

Well, I was just responding to what Ruthless posted and I'm disregarding my own advice by responding to you...but what the hey. First, I was talking about the Eagles game. I really don't remember the Browns game you're referring to. However, if it was the same year as the Eagles game (that I was referring to) then I will say that the O-Line that season was about the worst I have ever seen it.


The sacks are NEVER on Ben its always the line, the foot, the shoulder, Arians, the woman in vegas...

I would appreciate it if you would clarify what you're trying to say here. My first instinct is to interpret your statement as meaning that I, and apparently a lot of people in your opinion cast a blind eye to Ben's fault and "NEVER" will put the blame for sacks on him. You then give a list of things people do blame sacks on other than our QB. I, personally, know that Ben is the cause of a lot of his sacks and have never hesitated to say so. What I did say was that in that particular Eagles game I believe the majority of the sacks were on the offensive line.

First, "the majority of" =\= "all" so even the specific statement I made proves you wrong. You are either employing a straw man argument intentionally or you are just incorrect. I would appreciate it if you would produce evidence that I, or any other poster on this board for that matter, have ever stated that Ben is not partly responsible for the amount of sacks he takes. I believe it is fairly obvious to anyone that might...dabble in watching football that Ben's playing style (extending plays when others don't, getting out of the pocket, holding onto the ball in order to try to make a play) is conducive to him taking more sacks than most other quarterbacks. Not sure who you're debating here...

http://i.imgur.com/DROk2.jpg




Its funny the MOMMENT Ben went out the sack problem stopped.

*Moment. (I fully realize I'm a spelling nit)


Leftwich was killing the blitz as we marched down the field.

As I said, I don't recall this specific game.


Not Saying Lefty is better (just smarter).

What evidence do you have to back up your assertion?


Did you see that STUPID saftey Ben gave them?

I probably saw it, but I don't remember it. I can say though, that Ben sometimes makes what I consider bad (or you could say "stupid") decisions. There have been numerous times where I had no inkling what he was thinking when he threw a particular pass, or held onto the ball too long and took a sack, etc. Ben has his faults and he has his merits.


Yep the Lines fault, I get it

The line's fault? For what? The safety that I don't remember? Obviously *I'm* not saying that. I don't even remember the frigging play. So what do you "get"? I know what I get. I get a ringside seat for what I can only assume is you debating our friend the straw man.

Well, that was fun. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to kill some time. :)

stopplayn
10-05-2012, 09:21 AM
It was on a Thursday Night on NFL Network (Browns). The line was bad? Then how come the line was great the MOMMENT Leftwich came in (Skins, Browns (2), Eagles) Wasnt it the SAME LINE?

In the Eagles game if the majority of the sacks were on the line then why did that SAME LINE block perfectly for Leftwich? I'll tell you why. Because Leftwich, Batch and Dixon STAY IN THE POCKET. Ben hurts himself by PREMATURELY leaving the pocket. The defender sees this and he moves with Ben but the Olinman can see where Ben is at. Makes it hard to block for. When a qb stays in the pocket the the lineman knows where he is at and its a joy to block for him (See Brady, Brees, Mannings etc) If Ben would STAY IN THE POCKET, he wouldnt have as many sacks.

What evidence do I have that Leftwich is smarter? When he is in he reads the defense AT THE LINE. He audibles, he hot routes and his sight adjustments are expert. I cited the Eagles game. I will also cite the Skins game as well. Ben was ineffective and getting sacked left and right. He got hurt and Lefty started the 3rd quarter. The sacks stopped, the line was great (Because he stays IN THE POCKET). Lefty made a sight adjustment at the line on the goalline and hit Santonio for a TD. Lefty recognized that the cb was playing off of tone, made a hand signal (hot route) to Tone. Tone ran a slant and the TD was there. You watch Lefty at the line and then you watch Ben. There are glaring differences. Not saying Lefty is better, JUST SMARTER. He also did the same sight adjustments vs the Browns (2nd game) when Ben was carted off to the ambulance (Again, sacks galore, Enter Leftwich and they stopped).

Now lets see. Browns, Skins, and Eagles games we have sacks galore. Take Ben out and they stop. Also, Dixon played for an injured Ben and passed TWENTY SIX times and wasnt sacked once VS THE RAVENS. Ben comes back for the 2nd Raven game and was sacked 4 times. We lost by three with Dixon and won by three with Ben. Yes Ben is better than Dixon (he sucks) but the sack problem only exists when Ben is playing. Batch started vs the Falcons and the Ravens and the sack problem was not a factor. Thats what evidence I have. They all get the ball out faster than Ben does but not better.

You dont remember the stupid saftey? I posted the link to the game. Check it out. Bonehead rookie mistake. GET RID OF THE BALL BEN!!!

stopplayn
10-05-2012, 09:28 AM
Ben is tough, Ben is even clutch but he is not smart on the field. He has more physical tools than ANY QUARTERBACK IN THE GAME. But where Brady, Brees, Mannings, Rodgers, Rivers etc are better than him is in the MIND.

When experts talk about cerebral Quarterbacks they NEVER mention Ben for a reason. There is just so much he doesnt do at the line of scrimmage. Ben will point out who the Mike backer is (holds two arms out), this is setting his line adjustments. What Ben does NOT do is pre snap read the defense and make an adjustment to what he sees at the line. Ben will just go with the called play. What if the play wont work vs the D you are looking at? Its up to the qb to change that play to a better one. Peyton Manning is an EXPERT at this. Bruce Arians would never handcuff a cerebral guy like Manning. Manning would simply change the play to a better one.

eniparadoxgma
10-05-2012, 09:35 AM
It's a 17 page thread. Where's the link to the Browns game footage you're referring to?

eniparadoxgma
10-05-2012, 10:11 AM
What year and week was this game? I can't find a Thursday night game vs the Browns in 2008 or 2009.

Slapstick
10-05-2012, 10:42 AM
What year and week was this game? I can't find a Thursday night game vs the Browns in 2008 or 2009.

It was December 10, 2009 in Cleveland...I was there...

It was the coldest night of the year, probably, and Arians' game plan called for passing the ball like, 50 times in cold weather against the worst rushing defense in the NFL...

stopplayn
10-05-2012, 12:28 PM
It's a 17 page thread. Where's the link to the Browns game footage you're referring to?

I posted the Eagle game link

stopplayn
10-05-2012, 12:31 PM
It was December 10, 2009 in Cleveland...I was there...

It was the coldest night of the year, probably, and Arians' game plan called for passing the ball like, 50 times in cold weather against the worst rushing defense in the NFL...

Has NOTHING to do with Arians. If Arians called a pass and the defense was vulnerable to the run then Peyton would audible to a run. Manning eliminates an OC as he should. The OC calls his play BEFORE he sees the defense. So a smart qb should change that play if a better one is available. Its called elite quarterbacking. I was also there.

Slapstick
10-05-2012, 12:44 PM
Has NOTHING to do with Arians. If Arians called a pass and the defense was vulnerable to the run then Peyton would audible to a run. Manning eliminates an OC as he should. The OC calls his play BEFORE he sees the defense. So a smart qb should change that play if a better one is available. Its called elite quarterbacking. I was also there.

Do you hear that?

That is the sound of goalposts moving...

NJ-STEELER
10-05-2012, 05:33 PM
So two sacks warrants an MVP? Then by that standard then why arent you arguing for Deebo to be MVP in the SB? Sorry, I think Mannings last drive (yes it was a lot of luck involved) was more impressive. Then Eli did it again to show you he is the PRIMARY reason the Giants are elite

good thing for asante samuel, i guess

NJ-STEELER
10-05-2012, 05:34 PM
So two sacks warrants an MVP? Then by that standard then why arent you arguing for Deebo to be MVP in the SB? Sorry, I think Mannings last drive (yes it was a lot of luck involved) was more impressive. Then Eli did it again to show you he is the PRIMARY reason the Giants are elite

would have him 3rd

ya know he was on a defense that allowed almost 400 yards, right?

NJ-STEELER
10-05-2012, 05:37 PM
So two sacks warrants an MVP? Then by that standard then why arent you arguing for Deebo to be MVP in the SB? Sorry, I think Mannings last drive (yes it was a lot of luck involved) was more impressive. Then Eli did it again to show you he is the PRIMARY reason the Giants are elite


if ben put up 17 points in a Sb against a very average defense, you would say he didnt do enough

just like you say about the arizona game. "he wouldnt have needed that last drive if the offense did something earlier in the 4th quarter"

NJ-STEELER
10-05-2012, 05:39 PM
I posted the footage and we didnt max protect. Ben was just in a funk that night and couldnt process. The problem stopped immediately once a qb who can quickly read a D came in

and you are wrong.

i remember that play from years back. 5 OL heath and the RB. eagles drop in a zone blitz and only send 4 and get on ben immediately

edit..2 mins in clear as day. stop making chit up

NJ-STEELER
10-05-2012, 05:47 PM
It was December 10, 2009 in Cleveland...I was there...

It was the coldest night of the year, probably, and Arians' game plan called for passing the ball like, 50 times in cold weather against the worst rushing defense in the NFL...


yeah, i remember with a 3 man line the browns DE whipping around willie 2 times for a sack. one in our final drive

eniparadoxgma
10-05-2012, 10:37 PM
It was on a Thursday Night on NFL Network (Browns).

I don't have the NFL Network nor did I then so either I didn't see the game at all or I saw it on one of those crappy live feeds that stutters and freezes half of the time.


The line was bad?

Yes, the line was bad. I'm assuming you've been a Steelers fan for awhile so I would think you'd know that. The line has been getting better the past couple of years but there for awhile our line was one of the worst lines in the entire NFL. The year that we're talking about? Yes, the line was most definitely bad if not downright horrible. Who was our center? Sean Mahan? Chukky Okobi? Give me a break. Take a stance. Was our O-line good? Was it so-so? Was it friggin terrible? I'm going to go with friggin terrible.


Then how come the line was great the MOMMENT Leftwich came in (Skins, Browns (2), Eagles) Wasnt it the SAME LINE?

Moment* I would have thought you'd have the spelling down after my last post. :)

I sincerely doubt the line was "great" after Leftwich came in. I don't even think that's what you're trying to say (even though that's what you typed). I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you're not trying to say that the line was "great" when Leftwich came in, but that your opinion is that Leftwich was able to better hide the faults of the line by getting the ball out quicker. That seems to make sense to me. So...what's your point? Did I miss the part where I said that Leftwich gets sacked as much as or more than Ben? strawman.jpeg


In the Eagles game if the majority of the sacks were on the line then why did that SAME LINE block perfectly for Leftwich? I'll tell you why. Because Leftwich, Batch and Dixon STAY IN THE POCKET. Ben hurts himself by PREMATURELY leaving the pocket.

As you will see in my next post, at least in the 2009 Browns game you've been talking about I did not see this happen at all.


The defender sees this and he moves with Ben but the Olinman can see where Ben is at. Makes it hard to block for. When a qb stays in the pocket the the lineman knows where he is at and its a joy to block for him (See Brady, Brees, Mannings etc) If Ben would STAY IN THE POCKET, he wouldnt have as many sacks.

Did you mean to say "but the Olinman [sic] can't see where Ben is at"? It would help if you'd look over your posts before you submit them because if you didn't mean "can't" then I have no idea what you're talking about here. As to your point (or what I think is your point) at least in the specific game that I will discuss in my next post I did not see this as the case. Please present specific examples from specific games to back up your argument. Am I saying that Ben *never* leaves the pocket too early? Not at all. But to say that's the main reason for him taking sacks, especially during the 2008 and 2009 seasons that you seem to like bringing up so much is just unwarranted.


What evidence do I have that Leftwich is smarter? When he is in he reads the defense AT THE LINE. He audibles, he hot routes and his sight adjustments are expert. I cited the Eagles game. I will also cite the Skins game as well. Ben was ineffective and getting sacked left and right. He got hurt and Lefty started the 3rd quarter. The sacks stopped, the line was great (Because he stays IN THE POCKET). Lefty made a sight adjustment at the line on the goalline and hit Santonio for a TD. Lefty recognized that the cb was playing off of tone, made a hand signal (hot route) to Tone. Tone ran a slant and the TD was there. You watch Lefty at the line and then you watch Ben. There are glaring differences. Not saying Lefty is better, JUST SMARTER. He also did the same sight adjustments vs the Browns (2nd game) when Ben was carted off to the ambulance (Again, sacks galore, Enter Leftwich and they stopped).

Now lets see. Browns, Skins, and Eagles games we have sacks galore. Take Ben out and they stop. Also, Dixon played for an injured Ben and passed TWENTY SIX times and wasnt sacked once VS THE RAVENS. Ben comes back for the 2nd Raven game and was sacked 4 times. We lost by three with Dixon and won by three with Ben. Yes Ben is better than Dixon (he sucks) but the sack problem only exists when Ben is playing. Batch started vs the Falcons and the Ravens and the sack problem was not a factor. Thats what evidence I have. They all get the ball out faster than Ben does but not better.

You dont remember the stupid saftey? I posted the link to the game. Check it out. Bonehead rookie mistake. GET RID OF THE BALL BEN!!!

Even in the 2009 Browns game I watched Ben make check downs and dump the ball off numerous times. I also watched him stay in the pocket the majority of the time. However, I am willing to concede that a lot of other quarterbacks "get the ball out faster" than Ben. The flip side of the coin is that a lot of Ben's best plays are made outside of the pocket or on the run, and these are things that Batch, Leftwich, and Dixon are not capable of doing. Would I exchange having Ben and his crazy extending-the-play abilities as well as the propensity to get sacked more for any other quarterback because they stay in the pocket more and perhaps get the ball out quicker? NOPE. Why? Because we would have two less superbowls.

eniparadoxgma
10-05-2012, 10:54 PM
The line was bad?

As I said previously, yes. The. line. was. bad. I was wrong about our center. Instead of Okobi or Mahan, it was Hartwig. Not a big difference.

Here are the stats for the 2009 Offensive Line:


http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=0011&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2009&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go


As you can see, we ranked 16th in the AFC (last place) and 31st out of 32 in the entire NFL.


More Steelers 2009 O-Line stats:


http://www.steelersdepot.com/2010/02/steelers-2009-offensive-line-stats/

Can we move on?

__________________________________________________ ___________________________



So, anyways, I got a hold of that 2009 Steelers/Browns game (12-10-2009) and watched it. Here's my take on the 8 sacks in that game:

2009 Steelers vs Browns 12-10 recap:

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=291210005



1st sack: 10:57 in the 1st quarter, we have 3rd and 1 on our 24 yard line, Ben is in shotgun. Hartwig gets beat like a drum by Corey Williams, Moore (or Mendy) doesn't even slow him down a bit, everyone is covered downfield, and Ben takes a sack. He didn't try to get out of the pocket at all. He didn't have the time.


2nd sack: 5:39 left in the 1st quarter, we have another 3rd down, this time at our 9 yard line, Poteat comes in unblocked and sacks Ben before he can do anything. The protection was screwed up on this play, as they let the defender come in untouched. Whoever called the protection is to blame, whether it was Arians or Ben. Again, Ben didn't "leave the pocket early" or try to extend the play. He was sacked pretty much immediately after the snap.


3rd sack: 1st play of the 2nd quarter. We're at their 41. It's another 3rd down and 7 and we go shotgun again. Marcus Bernard comes in unblocked and gets Ben immediately. There is no time for him to roll out of the pocket or do anything. Looking at the play, Bernard had no one line up across from him at the line and it looks to me that Colon just blew his assignment. Instead of blocking Bernard (on his right) he gives help to the left where it doesn't seem needed. Maybe Heath was supposed to stay in and block? Either way Bernard is given a free shot and he takes down Ben immediately.


Here's where they are pre-snap:

669


Notice no one lined up across the line from Bernard. Colon is to the left. Heath is on the right but farther away.


Here's where everyone goes:

670


Colon turns left and Heath goes out. The result is an immediate sack.


4th sack: 5:32 left in the 2nd quarter, we're at our 40 with a 2nd and 12. From what I can tell it seems like a combination of two things: Instead of hitting Heath when he can, Ben looks like he's staring Hines down (who doesn't get his head turned around) AND Hartwig lets Corey Williams get around him by choosing to help Colon instead. I guess you could say this one is also on Essex as he initially gets a push on Williams and then releases to block someone else on the left which allows Williams to come in on Ben.


Here's the line pre-snap:

671






Here I've highlighted both Hartwig and Corey Williams:

672




Here you can see Essex initially blocking Williams and Hartwig looking for someone to block. On the right side you can see both Ward (I think it's Ward) and Heath going out.


Here's right before the sack:

673


Looks to me like Ben is staring at Hines' back, who doesn't get his head around. However, Heath is in a perfect position to make a catch and in my opinion Ben should hit him. But, from Ben's perspective it looks like the line has the D blocked so my assumption is that he was trying to make a bigger play. You can also see where Essex turned to the left to block someone and Hartwig turns right to help Colon, which frees up the lane for Williams to come in on Ben. I see this sack on both the O-Line and Ben, as Ben had a chance to get the ball to Heath, but the line plays like a comedy of errors. "Which way did he go, George? Which way did he go?"


5th sack: The very next play we have a 3rd and 19 from our 33. Shotgun. This one is particularly sad. The Browns only rush 3 and drop everyone else into coverage. What happens here is that Bernard puts a move on Colon and blows right by him. Ben is sacked...again immediately. This is most definitely not on Ben. Colon gets abused and hits the ground in frustration at his own ineptitude.


6th sack: 6:09 left in the 3rd quarter. We're at our 31. 3rd and 7, in the shotgun...(anything starting to sound familiar? 3rd down...shotgun...sack). Browns lay off but beat us with four. Bowens puts a stutter step on Kemo and then gets around him without being touched. Goes straight in on Ben. Both Heath and Moore stayed in on either side of Ben initially and then when it looked like the line was holding they took off. It was then that Bowens came in and got Ben. I don't see how this one was on Ben either. If our line can't hold against a four man rush when we leave both Heath and Moore in to help, then we're screwed. The commentators keep talking about how good the Browns' coverage is and that Ben has nowhere to throw the ball. From what I see, it looks like they're getting away with a lot of contact past 5 yards. Oh well. Maybe Ben could have thrown it away but I think Heath and Moore need to get their heads around faster.


7th sack: :58 left in the 3rd quarter. 2nd and 5, we're in the shotgun at the Browns' 23 yard line. Browns go man under/2 deep (according to the commentators lol) and have all of our receivers covered. Ben tucks the ball, tries to run, and gets dropped a yard shy of the line of scrimmage. Looks like the line had the Browns blocked initially but are out of position because Ben tries to run. Earlier Ben faced this coverage and was able to run for 11 and the 1st down. Not so this time. Not sure who to really blame for this one. The Browns have good coverage, our line seems to pick them up alright, Ben has nowhere to throw the ball...so he tries to run but gets tackled. Seems like less a sack than a run that results in a tackle for a loss. Just happens to be Ben with the ball.


8th sack: Easier to show this one then try to talk about it:

http://youtu.be/zJpvlw0RElo


Looks like Ben might have been able to get it to Heath short, but other than that I don't really have anything to say about this one.

So, in summation, I did not see Ben "leaving the pocket early" on any of those sacks. I did, however, see a couple of times when Ben might have been able to get the ball to Heath for a short pass or possibly throw it away. The main thing that I saw was our O-Line sucking and sucking badly.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate it if you kept your comments confined to this game alone for the time being instead of moving the goal posts to a different game. This was the specific game that I saw being discussed so this is the one I took a look at.

Whether anyone else gets anything out of it doesn't matter to me because I enjoyed doing it.




A couple of other things I noticed while watching the game:


-Brady Quinn hahahahahaha


-Nice to see Mendy on the field.


-I wish Sepulveda could have stayed healthy. While not what you necessarily need in a punter, that guy could tackle (used to be an LB etc). He took Cribbs DOWN and prevented a TD on a return in the 1st.


-Troy on the sidelines. Bah.


-Watching Silverback getting held every friggin down is pissing me off even now.


-While I like our WRs now, Ward/Holmes/Wallace/Heath is one hell of a receiving corps.


-1 quarter in and Ben has the longest run for the Steelers at 11(?) yards.


-Noticed some uncharacteristic drops by our receivers. Hines drops a well thrown quick pass that could've turned into a big gain towards the end of the 1st half. When we have 1st and goal at the end of the 1st half Heath drops a pass that hits him in the chest that would've been a TD. We settle for a FG instead (because there's only 2 seconds left on the clock). Huge drop by a wide open Mendenhall on 3rd down in the 4th quarter. It would have put us in field goal range but instead we had to punt. Wonder if the cold has something to do with it.


-Ben to Holmes was money.

eniparadoxgma
10-05-2012, 10:59 PM
There's apparently a five attachment limit so here's the pic I was going to use to show the AWESOME PASS RUSH of the Browns which resulted in the fifth sack in that 2009 Browns game:

674

Pathetic.

fordfixer
10-05-2012, 11:53 PM
Nice brake down Eni thank for taking the time:tt2

NJ-STEELER
10-06-2012, 12:01 AM
****owned











.....

eniparadoxgma
10-06-2012, 12:39 AM
Thanks guys. I had fun doing it. :)

hawaiiansteel
10-06-2012, 02:26 AM
Thanks guys. I had fun doing it. :)

I know how long that had to take but wow, great job! :Cheers

hawaiiansteel
10-06-2012, 02:29 AM
****owned

.....

end of thread, no more discussion necessary

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 02:31 AM
Do you hear that?

That is the sound of goalposts moving...

Hear that? Thats the sound of someone hating a sound intelligent football answer

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 02:34 AM
if ben put up 17 points in a Sb against a very average defense, you would say he didnt do enough

just like you say about the arizona game. "he wouldnt have needed that last drive if the offense did something earlier in the 4th quarter"

IF you think Ben was MVP (Elite) in that game then thats you. I dont. I saw MISSED opportunity after missed opportunity. Ben had a 20-7 lead (Defense). The game should have been a blowout.

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 02:36 AM
and you are wrong.

i remember that play from years back. 5 OL heath and the RB. eagles drop in a zone blitz and only send 4 and get on ben immediately

edit..2 mins in clear as day. stop making chit up

PRESENT YOUR PROOF IF YOU'RE TRUTHFUL. Your word is NOT proof.

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 02:45 AM
There's apparently a five attachment limit so here's the pic I was going to use to show the AWESOME PASS RUSH of the Browns which resulted in the fifth sack in that 2009 Browns game:

674

Pathetic.

You post that a "guy is not covered, it results in a immediate sack" THIS makes my point. A smart qb would shift his line to make up for that extra man or send heath in motion to block him. This is called a SIGHT ADJUSTMENT. Ben is VERY vanilla in this regard. The PROOF that Ben isnt what you guys WANT in a Qb (but you're scared to admit it). You ALL say "I hope Haley can help Ben". Do Pats fans HOPE a OC can help Brady? Did Colts fans HOPE an OC could help Peyton? Denver?. Do you see it now? Of course not.
I appreciate Eniparadoxgma taking the time but I got lost in the pool of EXCUSES. THE LINE, ARIANS, THE FOOT, THE SHOULDER, THE LIGHTING, THE SOIL, NFL NETWORK ......

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 02:48 AM
As I said previously, yes. The. line. was. bad. I was wrong about our center. Instead of Okobi or Mahan, it was Hartwig. Not a big difference.

Here are the stats for the 2009 Offensive Line:


http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=0011&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2009&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go


As you can see, we ranked 16th in the AFC (last place) and 31st out of 32 in the entire NFL.


More Steelers 2009 O-Line stats:


http://www.steelersdepot.com/2010/02/steelers-2009-offensive-line-stats/

Can we move on?

__________________________________________________ ___________________________



So, anyways, I got a hold of that 2009 Steelers/Browns game (12-10-2009) and watched it. Here's my take on the 8 sacks in that game:

2009 Steelers vs Browns 12-10 recap:

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=291210005



1st sack: 10:57 in the 1st quarter, we have 3rd and 1 on our 24 yard line, Ben is in shotgun. Hartwig gets beat like a drum by Corey Williams, Moore (or Mendy) doesn't even slow him down a bit, everyone is covered downfield, and Ben takes a sack. He didn't try to get out of the pocket at all. He didn't have the time.


2nd sack: 5:39 left in the 1st quarter, we have another 3rd down, this time at our 9 yard line, Poteat comes in unblocked and sacks Ben before he can do anything. The protection was screwed up on this play, as they let the defender come in untouched. Whoever called the protection is to blame, whether it was Arians or Ben. Again, Ben didn't "leave the pocket early" or try to extend the play. He was sacked pretty much immediately after the snap.


3rd sack: 1st play of the 2nd quarter. We're at their 41. It's another 3rd down and 7 and we go shotgun again. Marcus Bernard comes in unblocked and gets Ben immediately. There is no time for him to roll out of the pocket or do anything. Looking at the play, Bernard had no one line up across from him at the line and it looks to me that Colon just blew his assignment. Instead of blocking Bernard (on his right) he gives help to the left where it doesn't seem needed. Maybe Heath was supposed to stay in and block? Either way Bernard is given a free shot and he takes down Ben immediately.


Here's where they are pre-snap:

669


Notice no one lined up across the line from Bernard. Colon is to the left. Heath is on the right but farther away.


Here's where everyone goes:

670


Colon turns left and Heath goes out. The result is an immediate sack.


4th sack: 5:32 left in the 2nd quarter, we're at our 40 with a 2nd and 12. From what I can tell it seems like a combination of two things: Instead of hitting Heath when he can, Ben looks like he's staring Hines down (who doesn't get his head turned around) AND Hartwig lets Corey Williams get around him by choosing to help Colon instead. I guess you could say this one is also on Essex as he initially gets a push on Williams and then releases to block someone else on the left which allows Williams to come in on Ben.


Here's the line pre-snap:

671






Here I've highlighted both Hartwig and Corey Williams:

672




Here you can see Essex initially blocking Williams and Hartwig looking for someone to block. On the right side you can see both Ward (I think it's Ward) and Heath going out.


Here's right before the sack:

673


Looks to me like Ben is staring at Hines' back, who doesn't get his head around. However, Heath is in a perfect position to make a catch and in my opinion Ben should hit him. But, from Ben's perspective it looks like the line has the D blocked so my assumption is that he was trying to make a bigger play. You can also see where Essex turned to the left to block someone and Hartwig turns right to help Colon, which frees up the lane for Williams to come in on Ben. I see this sack on both the O-Line and Ben, as Ben had a chance to get the ball to Heath, but the line plays like a comedy of errors. "Which way did he go, George? Which way did he go?"


5th sack: The very next play we have a 3rd and 19 from our 33. Shotgun. This one is particularly sad. The Browns only rush 3 and drop everyone else into coverage. What happens here is that Bernard puts a move on Colon and blows right by him. Ben is sacked...again immediately. This is most definitely not on Ben. Colon gets abused and hits the ground in frustration at his own ineptitude.


6th sack: 6:09 left in the 3rd quarter. We're at our 31. 3rd and 7, in the shotgun...(anything starting to sound familiar? 3rd down...shotgun...sack). Browns lay off but beat us with four. Bowens puts a stutter step on Kemo and then gets around him without being touched. Goes straight in on Ben. Both Heath and Moore stayed in on either side of Ben initially and then when it looked like the line was holding they took off. It was then that Bowens came in and got Ben. I don't see how this one was on Ben either. If our line can't hold against a four man rush when we leave both Heath and Moore in to help, then we're screwed. The commentators keep talking about how good the Browns' coverage is and that Ben has nowhere to throw the ball. From what I see, it looks like they're getting away with a lot of contact past 5 yards. Oh well. Maybe Ben could have thrown it away but I think Heath and Moore need to get their heads around faster.


7th sack: :58 left in the 3rd quarter. 2nd and 5, we're in the shotgun at the Browns' 23 yard line. Browns go man under/2 deep (according to the commentators lol) and have all of our receivers covered. Ben tucks the ball, tries to run, and gets dropped a yard shy of the line of scrimmage. Looks like the line had the Browns blocked initially but are out of position because Ben tries to run. Earlier Ben faced this coverage and was able to run for 11 and the 1st down. Not so this time. Not sure who to really blame for this one. The Browns have good coverage, our line seems to pick them up alright, Ben has nowhere to throw the ball...so he tries to run but gets tackled. Seems like less a sack than a run that results in a tackle for a loss. Just happens to be Ben with the ball.


8th sack: Easier to show this one then try to talk about it:

http://youtu.be/zJpvlw0RElo


Looks like Ben might have been able to get it to Heath short, but other than that I don't really have anything to say about this one.

So, in summation, I did not see Ben "leaving the pocket early" on any of those sacks. I did, however, see a couple of times when Ben might have been able to get the ball to Heath for a short pass or possibly throw it away. The main thing that I saw was our O-Line sucking and sucking badly.

Anyhow, I'd appreciate it if you kept your comments confined to this game alone for the time being instead of moving the goal posts to a different game. This was the specific game that I saw being discussed so this is the one I took a look at.

Whether anyone else gets anything out of it doesn't matter to me because I enjoyed doing it.




A couple of other things I noticed while watching the game:


-Brady Quinn hahahahahaha


-Nice to see Mendy on the field.


-I wish Sepulveda could have stayed healthy. While not what you necessarily need in a punter, that guy could tackle (used to be an LB etc). He took Cribbs DOWN and prevented a TD on a return in the 1st.


-Troy on the sidelines. Bah.


-Watching Silverback getting held every friggin down is pissing me off even now.


-While I like our WRs now, Ward/Holmes/Wallace/Heath is one hell of a receiving corps.


-1 quarter in and Ben has the longest run for the Steelers at 11(?) yards.


-Noticed some uncharacteristic drops by our receivers. Hines drops a well thrown quick pass that could've turned into a big gain towards the end of the 1st half. When we have 1st and goal at the end of the 1st half Heath drops a pass that hits him in the chest that would've been a TD. We settle for a FG instead (because there's only 2 seconds left on the clock). Huge drop by a wide open Mendenhall on 3rd down in the 4th quarter. It would have put us in field goal range but instead we had to punt. Wonder if the cold has something to do with it.


-Ben to Holmes was money.

You list O line stats. I told you the O line looks BAD because of Bens style. Ben even admits this. Ben knows his shortcomings. Again. when they speak of cerebral qbs. WHY dont they mention Ben? Why not?

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 03:11 AM
He breaks down one game but I have broken down BENS WHOLE career up to 09. You can do the same for 2010 and 11 and you will see the same thing. He doesnt play well vs a good D. You blame the line? Well when Wiz and Grimm were here he was sacked FORTY SIX times! Was the LINE terrible then? Again, the problem is Ben. I also added the fact that Dixon passed 26 times vs the Ravens (Not sacked once). Ben plays the second game and is sacked 4 times.
Skins game in 08 SAME LINE. Ben is sacked, picked beat up etc. Leftwich comes in and the line MIRACULOUSLY blocks beter. (Leftwich stays in the pocket). What happened to the bad line????

Browns game in 08 SAME THING happened. Ben is carried off on a gurney and Leftwich comes in and its a whole new line.

Eagles game the same thing. Oh by the way. Batch started for a resting Roethlisberger and passed I believe (Off the top of the head) 31 times and wasnt sacked ONCE (07).
When Ben missed 4 games in 10, where was the sack problem? If didnt exist.

Ben Roethlisberger vs Top Defenses up to 09

09


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

Ravens #2 in Total Defense - Ben was 17-33 259 1 TD 1 int ELITE? HARDLY LOL Take away the 45 yard YAC by Wallace Ben is BELOW average vs. A GOOD D. Ben produced 2 TD's

Packers #3- Ben did well vs. this Defense. 3rd overall BUT only TWELTH vs. the pass. Not to mention that TWO Dbs were injured for the Steelers game. Ben took advantage of a injured secondary However, Ben played up to his abilities in this game. No problem with giving him credit on this day. Again- Exception to the rule

Vikings #4- 14-26 175 1 Td. ELITE? HARDLY. Again, Wallace Bails him out again with a fair catch TD of a punt. I mean pass by Ben. A pass Wallace had to stop, wave his hand and then catch. Ben produced 1 TD and 2fgs. THIRTEEN POINTS. Defense won this game.

#5 Bengals (2) Game 1- 22-31- 276 1 TD 1int. ELITE? Again, Wallace catches a long pass that should have been SIX but the LETHARGIC one led him out of bounds with the poor pass. Ben also overthrew a wide open Hines for six as well as Tone for six. Yes Limas dropped a Td that was like George Washingtons face- On The Money. But WHY does that failed TD get more recognition than the THREE that Ben failed on? Ben produced TWO TD's.


#5 Bengals Game 2. 20-40- 171 1 INT ELITE? He was sacked four times and his passer rating of 51.5 was his lowest since a 38.6 in a loss to the Giants (ANOTHER GOOD D) Ben produced NO TD's.

#7 Broncos- 21-29- 233 3TD's 1 int. These stats were aided by a strong performance from our Defense. Tyrone took one to the house. The Defense also got 2 more picks to put us in position to score and Ben took advantage of the good field position and got tds. This is how you utilize a strong D. You reward them by executing well and putting the dagger into the oppposition by scoring TD's. Notice how the game wasn't close? That's how MOST of our games should be, considering the strength of our D.

Now contrast These stats to the TEN games vs. poor defenses. NOW do you see where Ben did his damage at? Excluding the Packer game of course. He played EXCELLENT that game!



08


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/year/2008

#2 Ravens (2)- Game 1 Ben was 14-24-191 1 TD 1 INT Sacked 3 Times. Benefited from ANOTHER TD from the defense (Woodley). Benefited from Tone taking a short pass and making it a big play/yac. Hines Also had a 49 yard catch and run, that bolstered Bens pedestrian stats. Having said that, they were still pedestrian despite that. ONE TD Produced by your ELITE qb. LOL

Game 2 vs. Ravens 22-40-246 1TD Sacked 3 Times. ELITE? Hardly. The defense held the Ravens to NINE points and all we could muster was 13. Last second pass to Tone for the TD was clutch but long overdue. The Ravens shouldn't have even been in this game. Ben also lost a fumble this game. ONE TD. ELITE?? LOL

#3 Eagles- Ben was 13-25-131 1 INT 2 lost fumbles and EIGHT SACKS LOL. Ben produced TWO fgs and gave them 2 more points with a BONEHEADED safety in the end zone. Slow to process the info (Did the same thing vs. the Browns in 09 by the goaline. Took a terrible sack). Leftwich had almost half Bens yardage in ONE drive. He burnt the blitz over and over. Made Jim Johnson stop blitzing. If Nate catches the TD Leftwich throws him that game would have been winnable. Despite the LETHARGIC ONE.

#4 Skins- Ben got hurt late 2nd qtr. So he only played one half. He benefited from a blocked punt. He still played poorly. He was 5- 17- 50 yards and 1 INT and was sacked 5 times.. Leftwich comes in and he goes 7-10-129 and 1 TD not sacked once. Not saying Byron is better. He can just read a defense, faster.

#5 Giants- 13-29-199 1 TD FOUR INTS and 1 lost fumble. Also sacked FIVE times. Ben played like crap in this game and we STILL should have won. We were leading until the Harrison safety. An example of how our STRONG Defense aids Ben.

#7 Titans- 25-39-329 2 TD's 2INT's 5 SACKS, 2 lost Fumbles (one on the Titans ONE). Again, our defense put us in position to win this game but Bene made it impossible to do so. The Griffin pick six was the nail in the coffin. UGH

#8 Cowboys- Ben 17-33-204 1TD, 5 sacks and 1 lost fumble. Ben could only produce two fgs. It was the DEFENSE on the int by Ike that set up Heaths td from ben. Townsends pick 6 won the game. Ben again putrid vs. a good defense.

#10 Pats 17-33-179 2TDS 1 INT 1 lost fumble. With no Brady the Pats were no match for our team. We controlled the ball and ran all over them. Kinda like the 04 game with Plax (reg season).Mewelde and Willie were the reasons for this win. Ben, AGAIN, played mediocre vs. a good D. SEE A PATTERN?

#11 Colts- Ben was 29-41-3INTS and 2 sacks. Worth noting My little Chimp-Peyton was 21-40-240 and 3 TD's. VS THE #1 DEFENSE

Vs #2 Ravens AFCCG 16-33-255-1TD, 1 fumble lost and 4 sacks. We won this game based on the int by Polamalu and the great YAC by Tone.

07


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/year/2007

#4 Pats- 19-32-187- 1 TD, 3 sacks and 1 fumble lost (Brady was 32-46-399- 4TD's VS THE # 1 D-That's elite LOL)

#6 Ravens (2) Game 1 Ben- 13-16-209 5 TD's. Monday Night game in those UGLY throwbacks. It was an epic game by Ben. Again, there is always an exception to every rule.

Ravens Game 2- Ben sat out-resting for playoffs.

#12 Jags- 15-32-142- 3 TD's and 5 sacks. A classic case of too little too late as Ben only generates SEVEN points through 3 qtrs. Plays up to his potential in the 4th. Too late.

#12 Jags in playoffs-Ben does the same thing he did in the Regular season vs. this D. Plays horrible early and comes on strong late to make the HOMERS forget about the pick 6 he threw to Mathis. Stats Ben- 29-42-337 2 TD's, 3 INT's AND SIX sacks. I remember after this game the Steeler Nation attacked Tomlin for going for two points after the holding call. That call didn't lose the game. Ben's horrible 1st half did. You can NEVER get points back. But as usual, Ben can do no wrong. LOL

You NOW know why Ben had such a good statistical season in 07. NO GOOD DEFENSES ON THE SCHEDULE. Contrast that with 08. SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 03:11 AM
06


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/year/2006

#1 Ravens Game 1 Ben 21-41-214 and 2 INT's, NINE SACKS and one fumble lost for a TD. A. Thomas. The Ravens shut us out. The LETHARGIC one AGAIN, struggles against a top D.

#1 Ravens Game 2 Ben 15-31-156 1TD and 2INT's, 5 SACKS. So in TWO games vs. the #1 D he had ONE TD and FOUR INTS. I KNOW I KNOW he was hurt. LOL

#2 Jags-17-32-141 0 TD's and 2 INT'S. 2 Sack. Ben continued his trend of hitting his favorite receiver (Rashean Mathis) who picked him twice- AGAIN. LETHARGIC Ben produced ZERO points in this game. I know I know "HE WAS HURT HE WAS HURT"


#3 Raiders Ben was 25-37-301 1TD and FOUR ints. And 5 sacks. Including TWO pick six's. Didn't I say Ben has HABITUALLY sucked in the redzone his WHOLE career? FACT. I know I know. HE WAS ALMOST KILLED IN JUNE.. Worth Noting- the opposing qb (Walter) was 5-14-51 yards and one int. AND HE WON. . Elite Ben managed THIRTEEN points.

#7 Carolina Ben was 10-17-125 1 TD and 3 sacks.

#10 Chargers 20-31-220 2 INTS and 5 Sacks. You guys this is too easy. You CANT use the excuse that "he was hurt". or it was Arians, or the line. I am proving that Ben is what I say he is. A good qb that plays with a strong defense. He puts up ok numbers vs. Good defenses or he sucks royally vs. them. This with Arians, Whiz, Good Line, Average Line, "Bad Line".



05


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/year/2005

#2 Bears 13-20-173 1TD zero sacks.

#5 Ravens Game 1 18-30-177 2TD's, 1 INT.2 sacks. I'm waiting for this guy to LIGHT UP AN ELITE D. YAWN

#5 Ravens Game 2 (Didn't play)

#11 Colts 17-26-133 1 TD 2INTS, 3 sacks.

#11 Colts playoffs 14-24-197 2TD's, 1 INT,2 sacks. Ben started off fast. I was loving this game. Then in the 2nd half the LETHARGIC one surfaced. Managed 7 WHOLE points the 2nd half. ENTER EXCUSES (Cowher, Whiz) LOL

04


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/year/2004

#3 Skins Super Ben was 9-20-131 NO TD's O INTS. 4 Sacks

#6 Ravens. The 1st Raven game was when Ben got his chance after Maddox got hurt. These stats are from game 2 vs. the Ravens. 14-19-221 2 TD's 1 INT. O Sacks

#7 Jets- 9-19-144 0 TD's 2INT's.

#9 Pats (reg season) 18-24-196 2 TD's 0 sacks. I remember this game! Nice Long ball to Plax. Ben played well. Int by Townsend- to the house. We controlled the ball for most of the game. If I recall right it was like 40 minutes.

#9 Pats (AFCCG) 14-24-226 2 TD's 3 INT's 1 Sack. Ben was a rookie and he played like it. UGH. Call it cheating, call it whatever but Ben sucked in this game like MOST vs. elite defenses.



There you have it Ben Roethlisberger makes a living feasting off of bad defenses. Put him up against an elite one and he is not so elite as I have ALWAYS said. He wins BECAUSE OF HIS DEFENSE and because he is on the Steelers. Do explain all of this HARCORE proof as to his pedestrian or pathetic stats vs. a good defense. I didn't just list random numbers, I listed teams and years so you could CALL MY BLUFF. I dont just take ONE SEASON (BENS STATISTICAL BEST) or ONE GAME. I take his whole career and BURY YOU WITH THE TRUTH.

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 03:19 AM
2010
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/5536/year/2010/ben-roethlisberger


2011
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/5536/year/2011/ben-roethlisberger

I guess I made up all of this proof? Let the excuses begin

Slapstick
10-06-2012, 08:53 AM
Hear that? Thats the sound of someone hating a sound intelligent football answer

There was neither "hating" on my part nor a "sound intelligent football answer" on your part...and you know this...

If you want an example of a "sound intelligent football answer", please feel free to reread Eni's excellent posts...

NJ-STEELER
10-06-2012, 09:58 AM
IF you think Ben was MVP (Elite) in that game then thats you. I dont. I saw MISSED opportunity after missed opportunity. Ben had a 20-7 lead (Defense). The game should have been a blowout.



Classic 43ism right there

BTW. does ben play play defense? It was a blowout (mor then 10 point lead in the 4th quarter)

Question for ya. How many teams have given up a lead of more then 10 points in Sthe 4th qr of SB

Again. Eli put up only 10 points vs NE's defense up until the last drive. Is that 'elite'

Why wasn't that game a blowout forthr giants considering they had kept the highest scoring offense in nfl history to 14 points

NJ-STEELER
10-06-2012, 11:25 AM
in the 3 games the 'smarter' charlie batch started for ben in 2010 he was sacked 8 times (tampa was a blowout by halftime).

almost 3 sacks. over 40 for if he plays 16 games

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 08:50 PM
in the 3 games the 'smarter' charlie batch started for ben in 2010 he was sacked 8 times (tampa was a blowout by halftime).

almost 3 sacks. over 40 for if he plays 16 games

ALMOST 3 sacks? So you disregard the 31 times he passed vs the ravens in 07 and ZERO sacks huh? Verry fitting. You have proven that the sack problem exists for ONE reason. BEN ROTHLISBERGER. Its funny NO ONE addressed Bens stats vs an elite Defense his WHOLE career. NOW you know why he doesnt play well in Super Bowls. Its usually vs a good defense.

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 08:52 PM
Classic 43ism right there

BTW. does ben play play defense? It was a blowout (mor then 10 point lead in the 4th quarter)

Question for ya. How many teams have given up a lead of more then 10 points in Sthe 4th qr of SB

Again. Eli put up only 10 points vs NE's defense up until the last drive. Is that 'elite'

Why wasn't that game a blowout forthr giants considering they had kept the highest scoring offense in nfl history to 14 points

How many qbs are handed a THREE possesson lead and then LOSE IT. Thats the bigger question.

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 08:54 PM
Classic 43ism right there

BTW. does ben play play defense? It was a blowout (mor then 10 point lead in the 4th quarter)

Question for ya. How many teams have given up a lead of more then 10 points in Sthe 4th qr of SB

Again. Eli put up only 10 points vs NE's defense up until the last drive. Is that 'elite'

Why wasn't that game a blowout forthr giants considering they had kept the highest scoring offense in nfl history to 14 points

Because Eli didnt play his best. Eli played mediocre. I never said he played great. He is in the same boat as Ben. I'm very consistent. Unlike you guys

Ben losses a lead and you blame the defense. Eli losses a lead and you blame Eli. You blame Brady or Peyton for the pick 6. When Ben did the same thing vs the Broncos, you blame the Defense.

Sheer Hypocrisy.

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 09:10 PM
Classic 43ism right there

BTW. does ben play play defense? It was a blowout (mor then 10 point lead in the 4th quarter)

Question for ya. How many teams have given up a lead of more then 10 points in Sthe 4th qr of SB

Again. Eli put up only 10 points vs NE's defense up until the last drive. Is that 'elite'

Why wasn't that game a blowout forthr giants considering they had kept the highest scoring offense in nfl history to 14 points

NO, its not elite. But Eli has beaten the Pats TWICE in the SB. Brady kills Ben head to head. Eli is elite because of his mind and HE is the primary reason why the Giants are good. Plaxico played with both of them. Please look at the stats. One year a piece.


2005 New York Giants 16 Games 76 Rec 1,214 Yards 16.0 avg 75.9 Yards/G 78T Long 7 TD 20+ 5 40+ 49 1st 1 Fumble

2004 Pittsburgh Steelers 11 Games 35 Rec 698 Yards 19.9 avb 63.5 Yards/G 48 Long 5 TD 13+ 4 40+ 311st 1 Fumble

Instead of using the Big target Ben went primarily to Hines. Except the Pats game (04). Ben was great that game and so was the offense

stopplayn
10-06-2012, 09:52 PM
There was neither "hating" on my part nor a "sound intelligent football answer" on your part...and you know this...

If you want an example of a "sound intelligent football answer", please feel free to reread Eni's excellent posts...

Why would I address ONE GAME? I chronicled NINE YEARS of games. You're impressed by a breakdown of ONE game vs OVER 100?? LOL

Why dont you take your pom poms over to Eni's and help come up with an adequate EXCUSE for these mediocre stats. And we pay Ben Roethlisberger 100 Million and the guy has thrown for 30 TD passes ONCE in his career. When the defense falters can we lean on our Qb? See 2009.

Slapstick
10-07-2012, 12:06 AM
Why would I address ONE GAME? I chronicled NINE YEARS of games. You're impressed by a breakdown of ONE game vs OVER 100?? LOL



You didn't break down a single game...you just provided links to box scores...

That isn't to say that one can't learn anything from stats, but Eni actually looked at the game tape and broke it down...

Of course I respect that more than simply providing links...

stopplayn
10-07-2012, 09:18 AM
You didn't break down a single game...you just provided links to box scores...

That isn't to say that one can't learn anything from stats, but Eni actually looked at the game tape and broke it down...

Of course I respect that more than simply providing links...

Then you DIDNT read my posts. I BROKE DOWN games from 04-09. Gave links for the last TWO years. Youre wrong again. Its OBVIOUS I looked at the GAMES.

Eni ADMITTED he hadnt seen the game, so he broke down HIGHLIGHTS. I sir, watched the games as you can tell by my comments after those games. YOU had to tell him what game I was talking about (Remember he stated "I cant find a thurs night game vs the Browns on NFL Network). You told him it was in 09. Now DID HE WATCH THE TAPE? As I said WHY cant you address those anemic stats for NINE YEARS?

ROLROC
10-07-2012, 09:34 AM
Classic 43ism right there

43 stated on the 'other' board he has never visited this site.:roll:

same old chit.

stopplayn
10-07-2012, 12:35 PM
He breaks down one game but I have broken down BENS WHOLE career up to 09. You can do the same for 2010 and 11 and you will see the same thing. He doesnt play well vs a good D. You blame the line? Well when Wiz and Grimm were here he was sacked FORTY SIX times! Was the LINE terrible then? Again, the problem is Ben. I also added the fact that Dixon passed 26 times vs the Ravens (Not sacked once). Ben plays the second game and is sacked 4 times.
Skins game in 08 SAME LINE. Ben is sacked, picked beat up etc. Leftwich comes in and the line MIRACULOUSLY blocks beter. (Leftwich stays in the pocket). What happened to the bad line????

Browns game in 08 SAME THING happened. Ben is carried off on a gurney and Leftwich comes in and its a whole new line.

Eagles game the same thing. Oh by the way. Batch started for a resting Roethlisberger and passed I believe (Off the top of the head) 31 times and wasnt sacked ONCE (07).
When Ben missed 4 games in 10, where was the sack problem? If didnt exist.

Ben Roethlisberger vs Top Defenses up to 09

09


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense

Ravens #2 in Total Defense - Ben was 17-33 259 1 TD 1 int ELITE? HARDLY LOL Take away the 45 yard YAC by Wallace Ben is BELOW average vs. A GOOD D. Ben produced 2 TD's

Packers #3- Ben did well vs. this Defense. 3rd overall BUT only TWELTH vs. the pass. Not to mention that TWO Dbs were injured for the Steelers game. Ben took advantage of a injured secondary However, Ben played up to his abilities in this game. No problem with giving him credit on this day. Again- Exception to the rule

Vikings #4- 14-26 175 1 Td. ELITE? HARDLY. Again, Wallace Bails him out again with a fair catch TD of a punt. I mean pass by Ben. A pass Wallace had to stop, wave his hand and then catch. Ben produced 1 TD and 2fgs. THIRTEEN POINTS. Defense won this game.

#5 Bengals (2) Game 1- 22-31- 276 1 TD 1int. ELITE? Again, Wallace catches a long pass that should have been SIX but the LETHARGIC one led him out of bounds with the poor pass. Ben also overthrew a wide open Hines for six as well as Tone for six. Yes Limas dropped a Td that was like George Washingtons face- On The Money. But WHY does that failed TD get more recognition than the THREE that Ben failed on? Ben produced TWO TD's.


#5 Bengals Game 2. 20-40- 171 1 INT ELITE? He was sacked four times and his passer rating of 51.5 was his lowest since a 38.6 in a loss to the Giants (ANOTHER GOOD D) Ben produced NO TD's.

#7 Broncos- 21-29- 233 3TD's 1 int. These stats were aided by a strong performance from our Defense. Tyrone took one to the house. The Defense also got 2 more picks to put us in position to score and Ben took advantage of the good field position and got tds. This is how you utilize a strong D. You reward them by executing well and putting the dagger into the oppposition by scoring TD's. Notice how the game wasn't close? That's how MOST of our games should be, considering the strength of our D.

Now contrast These stats to the TEN games vs. poor defenses. NOW do you see where Ben did his damage at? Excluding the Packer game of course. He played EXCELLENT that game!



08


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/year/2008

#2 Ravens (2)- Game 1 Ben was 14-24-191 1 TD 1 INT Sacked 3 Times. Benefited from ANOTHER TD from the defense (Woodley). Benefited from Tone taking a short pass and making it a big play/yac. Hines Also had a 49 yard catch and run, that bolstered Bens pedestrian stats. Having said that, they were still pedestrian despite that. ONE TD Produced by your ELITE qb. LOL

Game 2 vs. Ravens 22-40-246 1TD Sacked 3 Times. ELITE? Hardly. The defense held the Ravens to NINE points and all we could muster was 13. Last second pass to Tone for the TD was clutch but long overdue. The Ravens shouldn't have even been in this game. Ben also lost a fumble this game. ONE TD. ELITE?? LOL

#3 Eagles- Ben was 13-25-131 1 INT 2 lost fumbles and EIGHT SACKS LOL. Ben produced TWO fgs and gave them 2 more points with a BONEHEADED safety in the end zone. Slow to process the info (Did the same thing vs. the Browns in 09 by the goaline. Took a terrible sack). Leftwich had almost half Bens yardage in ONE drive. He burnt the blitz over and over. Made Jim Johnson stop blitzing. If Nate catches the TD Leftwich throws him that game would have been winnable. Despite the LETHARGIC ONE.

#4 Skins- Ben got hurt late 2nd qtr. So he only played one half. He benefited from a blocked punt. He still played poorly. He was 5- 17- 50 yards and 1 INT and was sacked 5 times.. Leftwich comes in and he goes 7-10-129 and 1 TD not sacked once. Not saying Byron is better. He can just read a defense, faster.

#5 Giants- 13-29-199 1 TD FOUR INTS and 1 lost fumble. Also sacked FIVE times. Ben played like crap in this game and we STILL should have won. We were leading until the Harrison safety. An example of how our STRONG Defense aids Ben.

#7 Titans- 25-39-329 2 TD's 2INT's 5 SACKS, 2 lost Fumbles (one on the Titans ONE). Again, our defense put us in position to win this game but Bene made it impossible to do so. The Griffin pick six was the nail in the coffin. UGH

#8 Cowboys- Ben 17-33-204 1TD, 5 sacks and 1 lost fumble. Ben could only produce two fgs. It was the DEFENSE on the int by Ike that set up Heaths td from ben. Townsends pick 6 won the game. Ben again putrid vs. a good defense.

#10 Pats 17-33-179 2TDS 1 INT 1 lost fumble. With no Brady the Pats were no match for our team. We controlled the ball and ran all over them. Kinda like the 04 game with Plax (reg season).Mewelde and Willie were the reasons for this win. Ben, AGAIN, played mediocre vs. a good D. SEE A PATTERN?

#11 Colts- Ben was 29-41-3INTS and 2 sacks. Worth noting My little Chimp-Peyton was 21-40-240 and 3 TD's. VS THE #1 DEFENSE

Vs #2 Ravens AFCCG 16-33-255-1TD, 1 fumble lost and 4 sacks. We won this game based on the int by Polamalu and the great YAC by Tone.

07


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/year/2007

#4 Pats- 19-32-187- 1 TD, 3 sacks and 1 fumble lost (Brady was 32-46-399- 4TD's VS THE # 1 D-That's elite LOL)

#6 Ravens (2) Game 1 Ben- 13-16-209 5 TD's. Monday Night game in those UGLY throwbacks. It was an epic game by Ben. Again, there is always an exception to every rule.

Ravens Game 2- Ben sat out-resting for playoffs.

#12 Jags- 15-32-142- 3 TD's and 5 sacks. A classic case of too little too late as Ben only generates SEVEN points through 3 qtrs. Plays up to his potential in the 4th. Too late.

#12 Jags in playoffs-Ben does the same thing he did in the Regular season vs. this D. Plays horrible early and comes on strong late to make the HOMERS forget about the pick 6 he threw to Mathis. Stats Ben- 29-42-337 2 TD's, 3 INT's AND SIX sacks. I remember after this game the Steeler Nation attacked Tomlin for going for two points after the holding call. That call didn't lose the game. Ben's horrible 1st half did. You can NEVER get points back. But as usual, Ben can do no wrong. LOL

You NOW know why Ben had such a good statistical season in 07. NO GOOD DEFENSES ON THE SCHEDULE. Contrast that with 08. SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

This is what I posted

stopplayn
10-07-2012, 12:36 PM
06


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/year/2006

#1 Ravens Game 1 Ben 21-41-214 and 2 INT's, NINE SACKS and one fumble lost for a TD. A. Thomas. The Ravens shut us out. The LETHARGIC one AGAIN, struggles against a top D.

#1 Ravens Game 2 Ben 15-31-156 1TD and 2INT's, 5 SACKS. So in TWO games vs. the #1 D he had ONE TD and FOUR INTS. I KNOW I KNOW he was hurt. LOL

#2 Jags-17-32-141 0 TD's and 2 INT'S. 2 Sack. Ben continued his trend of hitting his favorite receiver (Rashean Mathis) who picked him twice- AGAIN. LETHARGIC Ben produced ZERO points in this game. I know I know "HE WAS HURT HE WAS HURT"


#3 Raiders Ben was 25-37-301 1TD and FOUR ints. And 5 sacks. Including TWO pick six's. Didn't I say Ben has HABITUALLY sucked in the redzone his WHOLE career? FACT. I know I know. HE WAS ALMOST KILLED IN JUNE.. Worth Noting- the opposing qb (Walter) was 5-14-51 yards and one int. AND HE WON. . Elite Ben managed THIRTEEN points.

#7 Carolina Ben was 10-17-125 1 TD and 3 sacks.

#10 Chargers 20-31-220 2 INTS and 5 Sacks. You guys this is too easy. You CANT use the excuse that "he was hurt". or it was Arians, or the line. I am proving that Ben is what I say he is. A good qb that plays with a strong defense. He puts up ok numbers vs. Good defenses or he sucks royally vs. them. This with Arians, Whiz, Good Line, Average Line, "Bad Line".



05


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/year/2005

#2 Bears 13-20-173 1TD zero sacks.

#5 Ravens Game 1 18-30-177 2TD's, 1 INT.2 sacks. I'm waiting for this guy to LIGHT UP AN ELITE D. YAWN

#5 Ravens Game 2 (Didn't play)

#11 Colts 17-26-133 1 TD 2INTS, 3 sacks.

#11 Colts playoffs 14-24-197 2TD's, 1 INT,2 sacks. Ben started off fast. I was loving this game. Then in the 2nd half the LETHARGIC one surfaced. Managed 7 WHOLE points the 2nd half. ENTER EXCUSES (Cowher, Whiz) LOL

04


http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense/year/2004

#3 Skins Super Ben was 9-20-131 NO TD's O INTS. 4 Sacks

#6 Ravens. The 1st Raven game was when Ben got his chance after Maddox got hurt. These stats are from game 2 vs. the Ravens. 14-19-221 2 TD's 1 INT. O Sacks

#7 Jets- 9-19-144 0 TD's 2INT's.

#9 Pats (reg season) 18-24-196 2 TD's 0 sacks. I remember this game! Nice Long ball to Plax. Ben played well. Int by Townsend- to the house. We controlled the ball for most of the game. If I recall right it was like 40 minutes.

#9 Pats (AFCCG) 14-24-226 2 TD's 3 INT's 1 Sack. Ben was a rookie and he played like it. UGH. Call it cheating, call it whatever but Ben sucked in this game like MOST vs. elite defenses.



There you have it Ben Roethlisberger makes a living feasting off of bad defenses. Put him up against an elite one and he is not so elite as I have ALWAYS said. He wins BECAUSE OF HIS DEFENSE and because he is on the Steelers. Do explain all of this HARCORE proof as to his pedestrian or pathetic stats vs. a good defense. I didn't just list random numbers, I listed teams and years so you could CALL MY BLUFF. I dont just take ONE SEASON (BENS STATISTICAL BEST) or ONE GAME. I take his whole career and BURY YOU WITH THE TRUTH.

This was the continuation of 1st post

stopplayn
10-07-2012, 12:51 PM
Dan Marino just said "Playing well against the best teams is part of being an outstanding quarterback" He was talking about Sanchez after Sterling said that Sanchez has looked bab because he has played against three GREAT defenses.

This is ALL I have been Saying about Ben. How can you be called ELITE when you dont play elite CONSISTENTLY vs the good defenses.

Slapstick
10-07-2012, 04:09 PM
This is what I posted

Yup. Linking to stats...breaking down nada...

feltdizz
10-07-2012, 04:35 PM
Ben led then down for the win.. what now?

hawaiiansteel
10-07-2012, 05:30 PM
43 stated on the 'other' board he has never visited this site.:roll:

same old chit.

that's BS, 43 used to come to this board just to argue with Crash...

NJ-STEELER
10-07-2012, 05:49 PM
ALMOST 3 sacks? So you disregard the 31 times he passed vs the ravens in 07 and ZERO sacks huh? Verry fitting. You have proven that the sack problem exists for ONE reason. BEN ROTHLISBERGER. Its funny NO ONE addressed Bens stats vs an elite Defense his WHOLE career. NOW you know why he doesnt play well in Super Bowls. Its usually vs a good defense.


3 sacks a game sorry.

thought you could have figured that out

NJ-STEELER
10-07-2012, 05:49 PM
How many qbs are handed a THREE possesson lead and then LOSE IT. Thats the bigger question.


how many other QBs play defense, besides ben?

NJ-STEELER
10-07-2012, 05:51 PM
Because Eli didnt play his best. Eli played mediocre. I never said he played great. He is in the same boat as Ben. I'm very consistent. Unlike you guys

Ben losses a lead and you blame the defense. Eli losses a lead and you blame Eli. You blame Brady or Peyton for the pick 6. When Ben did the same thing vs the Broncos, you blame the Defense.

Sheer Hypocrisy.
Hypocrisssy

who blamed the defense for throwing the pick 6 vs denver?

Flasteel
10-07-2012, 06:29 PM
You measure a quaterback's worth in the clutch...when it has to get done. That's generally on 3rd down and in the 4th quarter or with the game on the line. Today, he continued his unbelievable performance on 3rd down and led us to a game-winning drive against a tough defense. No mistakes and clutch throws throughout the game. I especially loved his little fake pitch on that 9-yard scramble. :-) He missed a couple throws and had some drops or his number would have been off the charts. I'm still wondering why his TD toss to Mendenhall is being counted as a run. It seemed like a clear forward pass.

Regardless, Ben did a great job today. As usual.

hawaiiansteel
10-07-2012, 06:46 PM
Dan Marino just said "Playing well against the best teams is part of being an outstanding quarterback"

just curious, how many Super Bowls did Dan Marino win?

NJ-STEELER
10-07-2012, 09:25 PM
how many sacks did 'stupid' ben allow today

stopplayn
10-07-2012, 11:55 PM
just curious, how many Super Bowls did Dan Marino win?

Super Bowls are TEAM accolades not individual. How many Super Bowls has Ben Roethlisberger won? ZERO. However, the STEELERS have won 6 (2 with Ben). TEAMS win Super Bowls. However, IF Dan Marino was on this team and in his prime we would seldom lose. ALL experts say Marino is better than Ben. But I get it Ben is better. I get it I get it

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 12:10 AM
You measure a quaterback's worth in the clutch...when it has to get done. That's generally on 3rd down and in the 4th quarter or with the game on the line. Today, he continued his unbelievable performance on 3rd down and led us to a game-winning drive against a tough defense. No mistakes and clutch throws throughout the game. I especially loved his little fake pitch on that 9-yard scramble. :-) He missed a couple throws and had some drops or his number would have been off the charts. I'm still wondering why his TD toss to Mendenhall is being counted as a run. It seemed like a clear forward pass.

Regardless, Ben did a great job today. As usual.
I agree and thats what I said to start this thread. Everyone said that Carson didnt outplay Ben even though IN THE CLUTCH Palmer scored 17 points in the 4th and Ben zero. This week Ben outduels Vick in the clutch so Ben outplayed him.

I do see strides from Ben However, he still does not score enough points. Wallace, Brown all dropped nice passes to them (Wallace was on drugs. I would bench him a series on Thurs) Browns was a TD. But the fact remains that once again, when facing a top defense Ben has average stats 21/37 207 0 TD 0 INT. I didnt mention the 2 dropped picks (again) but....

The D played well and Gave Ben THREE fumbles and one good return (rainey) and all we could muster was 16 points! The run by Mendenhall wasnt a pass. If you look at the play you will see that the line of scrimmage was the 20 or 21 yard line and Mendenhall caught the ball at the 22. This is a forward lateral and a run attempt not a pass attempt.

hawaiiansteel
10-08-2012, 12:15 AM
But I get it Ben is better. I get it I get it

no, obviously you don't...

http://thesportingsnarf.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 12:21 AM
Oh but I do. Ben is better than Jesus according to you guys SIGH

hawaiiansteel
10-08-2012, 12:23 AM
Oh but I do. Ben is better than Jesus according to you guys SIGH

at throwing a football probably yes, although I must admit I have never seen Jesus throw a football so I'm just assuming that...

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 12:42 AM
Hawaiin Steel- One whom engages in hyperbole. Hey that stud is TWENTY THIRD in the league in passing. Not impressed. See strides BUT not impressed.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/passing

hawaiiansteel
10-08-2012, 01:04 AM
Big Ben rescues Steelers again; with defense banged up, he'll have to continue

By Clark Judge | Senior NFL Columnist
Oct. 7, 2012

http://sports.cbsimg.net/u/photos/football/nfl/img20503274.jpg

Ben Roethlisberger gets a playmaker back on offense with the return of RB Rashard Mendenhall. (US Presswire)

PITTSBURGH -- If you're the Pittsburgh Steelers, this is what you like about your latest victory: Quarterback Ben Roethlisberger is still Ben Roethlisberger, rescuing the club with another fourth-quarter comeback, just as he has so many times before.

But if you're the Steelers, this is what should concern you: Not only did your defense blow another fourth-quarter lead; it just subtracted two of its key playmakers.

Linebacker LaMarr Woodley is sidelined because of a hamstring injury. Troy Polamalu aggravated a calf injury that kept him out of the previous two games. And while coach Mike Tomlin wouldn't speculate, it's hard to imagine either playing in Thursday's game at Tennessee.

No wonder Tomlin said he was "thankful" for the come-from-behind 16-14 defeat of the Philadelphia Eagles, a club with a habit this season of overcoming opponents in the fourth quarter. But not this time and not against this team because ... well, because there's only one Ben Roethlisberger, and few quarterbacks make as many big plays in big games as Big Ben.

Down by one point, with just over six minutes left, Roethlisberger drove the Steelers nearly the length of the field -- completing 4 of 5 passes and converting two key third downs -- to set up Shaun Suisham for the winning field goal.

While Suisham will be hailed as the hero, the difference for Pittsburgh -- again -- was Roethlisberger. He played his best when his team needed it most, and stop me if you've heard this before.

"I think all of the guys you can make an argument for being franchise quarterbacks -- that's the common tie that binds them," Tomlin said. "They come in different forms, shapes and sizes and skill sets if you will -- some of them are pocket passers; some of them are mobile -- but the reality is that if they're in that discussion it's because they deliver when it's time to deliver. No question, I don't care whom you're talking to, he's in the discussion."

He doesn't have to convince me. I've seen the guy deliver winning throws or lead winning drives too many times. In fact, if I had one game to win, Roethlisberger is one of the two or three quarterbacks I would choose -- with New England's Tom Brady another. The guy simply excels when he must.

And on Sunday he had to.

For three-and-a-half quarters he and his teammates struggled to get their act together, with receivers dropping five passes and Jerricho Cotchery tripping over the hash at the 4-yard line when he appeared headed for a certain touchdown shortly before halftime.

In the end, though, it didn't matter because Pittsburgh won, and Philadelphia didn't, and while the Steelers can tell themselves -- as wide receiver Antonio Brown did -- that "we left a lot of plays out there," they still prevailed.

And they prevailed because of their quarterback, who just produced his 25th winning drive in a fourth quarter or overtime and beat an NFC opponent at Heinz Field for the 14th time in 15 tries.

"I like to have the ball in my hands," Roethlisberger said, "and as an offense we want to control it."

That's one way of putting it. But wide receiver Emanuel Sanders, who made a critical third-down catch on the last series, had another.

"We all knew we had a job to do," he said. "We knew the team had to be put on our backs at that time, and we knew we were going to seize the moment. But that's what this game is about. It's all about those moments.

"We were sitting here at 1-2 [now 2-2], and the moment was out. It was our time to go down and drive. Everyone wants to be the guy to make that play to win the game, and everybody contributed."

He has that right. He made a third-down catch. So did Brown. Rashard Mendenhall, appearing for the first time this season, had four runs on the final possession. Isaac Redman had four more. Then, of course, there was Roethlisberger.

"We just need to play like the Pittsburgh Steelers," he said of that final drive. "We figured it's now or never."

Well, he played like he always does, and so did his teammates on offense. But it's that Pittsburgh defense that bears watching. Pittsburgh is always in the mix for the AFC North championship, but it's there because of Roethlisberger and its defense -- and it's that defense that allowed Philadelphia to drive 79 yards and convert two fourth downs on a touchdown drive midway through the fourth quarter.

Of course, it's also that defense that rescued the Steelers in the first half, forcing two Michael Vick fumbles -- including one on at the goal line ... on first down, no less ... that short-circuited a sure score.

But that defense just lost two starters, and while Tomlin declined to elaborate on the extent of injuries to Woodley and Polamalu, you might want to remember that it was a sore hamstring that sidelined Woodley most of the second half of 2011.

So stay tuned, people. It's a long season, and while Roethlisberger hasn't changed, the Steelers' defense has.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/20503242/big-ben-rescues-steelers-again-with-defense-banged-up-hell-have-to-continue

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 03:49 AM
You can post as many articles as you like. I have posted his stats vs a GOOD defense and what happened? The trend continues. O TD passes. Do you see what Arians and Luck are doing? They are SCORING. We are still a below average offense that still doesnt score. I thought the problem was Arains? As I told you, nope. Its Ben

Slapstick
10-08-2012, 06:05 AM
You can post as many articles as you like. I have posted his stats vs a GOOD defense and what happened? The trend continues. O TD passes. Do you see what Arians and Luck are doing? They are SCORING. We are still a below average offense that still doesnt score. I thought the problem was Arains? As I told you, nope. Its Ben

Oooooo...passer rating...

So, Vick had a better game yesterday because he posted a 104 passer rating?

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 06:31 AM
Passer rating? Perhaps you are confused. Vick is a BUM. We should have blown them out. The defense gave us 3 turnovers and a good return from Rainey and we score 16?

Meanwhile Arians is in Indy SCORING with a rookie. I thought Arians was terrible??????

Slapstick
10-08-2012, 07:40 AM
Passer rating? Perhaps you are confused. Vick is a BUM. We should have blown them out. The defense gave us 3 turnovers and a good return from Rainey and we score 16?

Meanwhile Arians is in Indy SCORING with a rookie. I thought Arians was terrible??????

Just not as terrible as the Green Bay defense...against whom Ben had a 500 yard passing day...

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 12:10 PM
He did. He did that in 09, whithout THREE starting Dbs. Arians was so bad. No line issues in Indy, No Redzone issues. Yet we STILL have both issues. Hmmmm

eniparadoxgma
10-08-2012, 12:11 PM
So many things wrong...so little time...


You post that a "guy is not covered, it results in a immediate sack" THIS makes my point. A smart qb would shift his line to make up for that extra man or send heath in motion to block him. This is called a SIGHT ADJUSTMENT. Ben is VERY vanilla in this regard. The PROOF that Ben isnt what you guys WANT in a Qb (but you're scared to admit it). You ALL say "I hope Haley can help Ben". Do Pats fans HOPE a OC can help Brady? Did Colts fans HOPE an OC could help Peyton? Denver?. Do you see it now? Of course not.
I appreciate Eniparadoxgma taking the time but I got lost in the pool of EXCUSES. THE LINE, ARIANS, THE FOOT, THE SHOULDER, THE LIGHTING, THE SOIL, NFL NETWORK ......

THAT's what you get out of my post? THAT? You hand pick one instance where I said it looked like someone was open and Ben didn't get it to him and all of a sudden "OMG BEN IS SO PEDESTRIAN HE OBVIOUSLY CAN'T MAKE READS OR ADJUSTMENTS AT THE LINE". This is a bunch of crap and here's why: You were originally saying that Ben's problem was taking sacks because he tries to roll out of the pocket too early. You cited this SPECIFIC Browns game as an example. Well, being as I checked the game out and went through each sack AND could find NO instance of Ben being sacked because he "rolled out of the pocket early" I would appreciate you just going ahead and admitting you were wrong. It's okay. Everyone's wrong every now and then. You really don't have to move the goalposts to now trying to argue that Ben can't make SIGHT ADJUSTMENTS at the line lol. As a matter of fact, I can't determine whether it's pathetic or comical the way you try to weasel out of everything you're called on. :) For now I'm going to go with comical.


You list O line stats. I told you the O line looks BAD because of Bens style. Ben even admits this. Ben knows his shortcomings. Again. when they speak of cerebral qbs. WHY dont they mention Ben? Why not?

The O line "looks BAD because of Bens style"? Really? That's what you want to go with here? We had the 2nd to last O-Line in the entire NFL in 2009 because of Ben? Did you even look at the stats for the line at either of those links? Regardless, I'm going to just say that no. It's not Ben's fault our line has sucked for awhile now. I have already admitted that yes, some sacks are on him. No one has argued against that. However, to say that our O-Line being one of the worst in the NFL for multiple years because of our QB is so far off the mark that I'm not even going to bother arguing with you any more about it. OUR O-LINE WAS AWESOME IN 2008 and 2009! lolol:lol:

Cerebral quarterback? I'm not sure what your point is. Is someone arguing that Ben is considered a cerebral quarterback? Where do you even get this stuff from? Ben's a tough mofo and one hell of a quarterback. strawman2.jpeg


Stats from handpicked games in 2009

What, exactly, is your argument? That Ben plays better against bad defenses than good? Is that really what you're trying to say? I would like you to post multiple year stats from other QBs and show me where ANY QB plays better against the better defenses than the bad. Until then I have no idea what your point is. "OMG BEN DOESN'T DO AS WELL AGAINST GOOD DEFENSES AS HE DOES AGAINST BAD ONES". What a shocker. It's actually kind of logical. There's a reason good defenses are considered good and bad ones bad. Again, restate your argument in a way that it makes some semblance of sense, please.


There you have it Ben Roethlisberger makes a living feasting off of bad defenses. Put him up against an elite one and he is not so elite as I have ALWAYS said. He wins BECAUSE OF HIS DEFENSE and because he is on the Steelers. Do explain all of this HARCORE proof as to his pedestrian or pathetic stats vs. a good defense. I didn't just list random numbers, I listed teams and years so you could CALL MY BLUFF. I dont just take ONE SEASON (BENS STATISTICAL BEST) or ONE GAME. I take his whole career and BURY YOU WITH THE TRUTH.

First, playing better against bad defenses than good defenses does NOT mean "He wins because of his defense", so I'm not sure why you're trying to present it as having logical consistency. There are a multitude of factors involved with why teams win and lose, and for you to draw such an arbitrary relation between those two things is rather telling IMO.

For the rest of the above paragraph, I'm not even sure if you know what you're arguing for or against anymore. What are you trying to prove? Again, you stated that the majority of the sacks taken in that SPECIFIC Browns game were because "Ben tries to get out of the pocket too quick" etc etc. I acquired a copy of the game, watched the game, and wrote down what I saw...even with pictures and a video. At no point in that game did Ben take a sack because of "trying to get out of the pocket" and I challenge you to provide any proof to the contrary.

So, what do you want your long posts with handpicked stats from handpicked games to prove?

Bury me (or whoever that post is directed at) with "THE TRUTH"? Now that IS comical. :D

eniparadoxgma
10-08-2012, 12:19 PM
Why would I address ONE GAME? I chronicled NINE YEARS of games. You're impressed by a breakdown of ONE game vs OVER 100?? LOL

Seriously? Because if you don't actually watch the games you don't know WHY certain things happen. You can read your box scores all you want but you won't know if a sack happened because of coverage, you won't know if a fumble was caused by a bad hand off or an amazing defensive play, you won't know...well, hopefully you get the idea. Stats cannot provide context.


Why dont you take your pom poms over to Eni's and help come up with an adequate EXCUSE for these mediocre stats. And we pay Ben Roethlisberger 100 Million and the guy has thrown for 30 TD passes ONCE in his career. When the defense falters can we lean on our Qb? See 2009.

Everyone's welcome to come on over. Only thing is you have to check your monomanic agendas at the door before you can come in...so obviously you can't come. You're worried about the number of TD passes and I'm worried about the amount of wins...especially of the SuperBowl variety. But I guess we each have our priorities lol.


Then you DIDNT read my posts. I BROKE DOWN games from 04-09. Gave links for the last TWO years. Youre wrong again. Its OBVIOUS I looked at the GAMES.

Eni ADMITTED he hadnt seen the game, so he broke down HIGHLIGHTS. I sir, watched the games as you can tell by my comments after those games. YOU had to tell him what game I was talking about (Remember he stated "I cant find a thurs night game vs the Browns on NFL Network). You told him it was in 09. Now DID HE WATCH THE TAPE? As I said WHY cant you address those anemic stats for NINE YEARS?

Again, wrong wrong and wrong again. I didn't break down highlights. I got a copy of the game and watched it. I rewound and rewatched every single one of those sacks. I asked which game it was because I was LOOKING FOR A COPY OF IT. I then FOUND A COPY OF IT. Again, I watched the game just a few days ago. Did you? Have you found anything to contradict ANYTHING I stated in my breakdown of that game? Don't worry. I'll wait.

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 12:38 PM
I posted NINE YEARS of solid proof for you. We saw the same thing again yesterday. I never said "Ben rolls out of the pocket". I said BEN LEAVES THE POCKET PREMATURELY. I have never seen a quarterback manipulate the pocket like Manning or Kurt Warner. When the pocket gets muddy (filled with bodies), they hang in the pocket till the last second. Do you notice how HALEY is making Ben STAY in the pocket? Do you notice what the result is? LESS SACKS. The reason BEn is so efficient is SCHEME. Haley has him making 3 step drops and getting the ball out. This usually means throwing to your 1st read. Any line is at their best when they know where the qb will be. If Ben stays in the pocket it is a joy to block for him. But when he is running around undisciplined, its hectic to block for him. Ben admits its HIS STYLE.

Secondly as for your analysis from HIGHLIGHTS is comical. For you to tell whos fault a sack is you would have to know 1. The play 2. What line adjustment Ben called at the line. Lets say Ben thinks the blitz is coming from the left and he makes his line adjustment to the left. Now what if the blitz comes from the right? This will throw the whole blocking scheme off and will result is a sack due to the quarterback making the wrong pre snap read. The described situation would put the sack on the qb and not the line. The line does what the quarterback tells it to do (Line adjustment).

Thats one of the reasons why Peyton Manning isnt sacked often. Its NOT his line. Its his Mind. Indsy line sucked in his absence. Who was missing? Peyton Manning was. To be successful at the line then you have to do your work in the film room. So excuse me if I disregarded your "breakdown" of highlights.

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 12:47 PM
What, exactly, is your argument? That Ben plays better against bad defenses than good? Is that really what you're trying to say? I would like you to post multiple year stats from other QBs and show me where ANY QB plays better against the better defenses than the bad. Until then I have no idea what your point is. "OMG BEN DOESN'T DO AS WELL AGAINST GOOD DEFENSES AS HE DOES AGAINST BAD ONES". What a shocker. It's actually kind of logical. There's a reason good defenses are considered good and bad ones bad. Again, restate your argument in a way that it makes some semblance

Please view Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees stats VS THE STEELERS. We are a elite defense and they habitually light us up. Please post their stats vs the Steelers and tell me what you find. Why do these three qbs play well vs a good D? CONSISTENTLY

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 12:49 PM
I didnt handpick any games. I posted his stats vs a top 10 Defense (EVERY ONE). Funny you couldnt defend the stats.

eniparadoxgma
10-08-2012, 12:56 PM
I posted NINE YEARS of solid proof for you.

Proof of what? What are you trying to say? :)


We saw the same thing again yesterday. I never said "Ben rolls out of the pocket". I said BEN LEAVES THE POCKET PREMATURELY.

I'm starting to worry about you at this point. What do you think I was saying? I might have said "roll out of the pocket early" but obviously I was responding to your statement of "leaving the pocket early". It's a sure sign of having nothing worthwhile to say when you have to pick at paltry semantics. The POINT was that, as I guess I have to state for you yet again, that I went through that game and him "LEAVING THE POCKET EARLY" never happened. NOT ONCE. So just man up and admit you were wrong. It's really not that hard.


I have never seen a quarterback manipulate the pocket like Manning or Kurt Warner. When the pocket gets muddy (filled with bodies), they hang in the pocket till the last second. Do you notice how HALEY is making Ben STAY in the pocket? Do you notice what the result is? LESS SACKS. The reason BEn is so efficient is SCHEME. Haley has him making 3 step drops and getting the ball out. This usually means throwing to your 1st read. Any line is at their best when they know where the qb will be. If Ben stays in the pocket it is a joy to block for him. But when he is running around undisciplined, its hectic to block for him. Ben admits its HIS STYLE.

For the love of all that is holy I don't even think you can carry your own train of thought for longer than half a second. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ARGUE?!?! I was arguing against your "point" that the majority of Ben's sacks happened in that specific Browns game because he LEAVES (not rolls, apparently lol) the pocket early. I'm still waiting on you to provide any evidence of this.


Secondly as for your analysis from HIGHLIGHTS is comical. For you to tell whos fault a sack is you would have to know 1. The play 2. What line adjustment Ben called at the line. Lets say Ben thinks the blitz is coming from the left and he makes his line adjustment to the left. Now what if the blitz comes from the right? This will throw the whole blocking scheme off and will result is a sack due to the quarterback making the wrong pre snap read. The described situation would put the sack on the qb and not the line. The line does what the quarterback tells it to do (Line adjustment).

Right. It's impossible to tell whether or not a QB takes a sack because of tight coverage or a bad throw when you watch the game. It's MUCH better to provide a bunch of hand picked stats from hand picked games in order to prove some type of ambiguous point about an ambiguous concept like "elite quarterback status". It's completely IMPOSSIBLE to tell when a lineman gets beat in a one on one match-up too right? I pointed out MULTIPLE instances of this in the game that YOU SPECIFICALLY BROUGHT UP. Sorry if you don't agree with it lol.


Thats one of the reasons why Peyton Manning isnt sacked often. Its NOT his line. Its his Mind. Indsy line sucked in his absence. Who was missing? Peyton Manning was. To be successful at the line then you have to do your work in the film room. So excuse me if I disregarded your "breakdown" of highlights.

You're so far all over the place that I don't think that you even know what you're saying anymore. So, since we can't tell what's in the QB'S MIND we won't ever know who the sacks are on...and must from here on out disregard all actual tape of the games...HOWEVER, we can use handpicked stats from handpicked games in order to "prove" that an athlete doesn't do as well against better opponents than worse ones...and THAT'S how we can really know who has the right to be called the ambiguous title of "elite quarterback". That's your argument?

I'm trying really hard not to just type "hahahahahahahahahahaha" at this point. :D

eniparadoxgma
10-08-2012, 12:58 PM
Please view Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees stats VS THE STEELERS. We are a elite defense and they habitually light us up. Please post their stats vs the Steelers and tell me what you find. Why do these three qbs play well vs a good D? CONSISTENTLY

What's your point?


I didnt handpick any games. I posted his stats vs a top 10 Defense (EVERY ONE). Funny you couldnt defend the stats.

Defend them against what exactly?

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 01:37 PM
When you start making attacks then you are frustrated. As I stated before. Skins game, sacks galore. Ben is hurt and enter Leftwich ( A qb who stays in the pocket). Sack problem no longer exists. What changed? One player, the qb.

Browns game (Both cited games in 08) sack problem, ints. Ben is hurt. Enter Leftwich, the sack problem is gone. Same with Eagles game of 08. I posted ALL of these games and you chose to HANDPICK the Browns game of 09. In your analysis if IRONIC That you didnt comment on the stupid safety. That was the lines fault. I get it. Ben has missed FIVE more games and you havent seen a game with 5 sacks, 6 sacks, 7 sacks 8 sacks or 9 sacks UNLESS BEN IS THE QB. Why is that? When you subtract ONE person the sack level goes down, why is that? Notice I havent called you any names. Noitce I just humbly pick apart your flimsy posts with class.

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 01:38 PM
What's your point?



Defend them against what exactly?

You stated that you wanted to compare OTHER TOP qbs vs top defenses. So I provided you with some and cited their stats vs us. Sorry if you dont like the results.

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 01:40 PM
What's your point?



Defend them against what exactly?

WHY is his stats subpar vs the good teams? Whereas the elite qbs play good no matter the competition. Do explain

virgilbosetti
10-08-2012, 02:16 PM
Hand picking stats is a good way to put it. I could say 4 way stop signs aren't necessary and pull up thousands of intersections across the country that don't have 4way stop signs or accidents. Does that really prove they're not needed? Not really.

eniparadoxgma
10-08-2012, 02:19 PM
When you start making attacks then you are frustrated. As I stated before.

Wrong again. I'm most certainly not frustrated. Nor have I started "making attacks". Furthermore, there could be numerous reasons for someone making attacks other than being frustrated. Playful malevolence, perhaps? This type of thing seems to be indicative of the reasoning I see prevalent in your arguments though. You see something that doesn't exist, claim that it can only be because of one thing (when it could be many), then state it as fact. Very telling.


There are more Skins game, sacks galore. Ben is hurt and enter Leftwich ( A qb who stays in the pocket). Sack problem no longer exists. What changed? One player, the qb.

Browns game (Both cited games in 08) sack problem, ints. Ben is hurt. Enter Leftwich, the sack problem is gone. Same with Eagles game of 08. I posted ALL of these games and you chose to HANDPICK the Browns game of 09.

Now that's just sad. I'm the one that picked that game? You chose that game, not me. If you're going to blatantly lie you've already lost.


In your analysis if IRONIC That you didnt comment on the stupid safety.

I'm assuming you meant to say "it's" instead of "if". I don't appreciate having to proofread your posts and would hope that you would start actually reading them before you post them. I know it may seem like it from our exchange in this thread, but I'm not your teacher. And what safety are you talking about? There was no safety in that Browns game. Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. :)


That was the lines fault. I get it.

What was the line's fault? Your invisible safety? If you're referring to another game I currently have no opinion. I prefer to...actually watch the plays I comment on before commenting on them. I find that it helps. What would your point be anyway? The one game I discussed doesn't mean anything but this one safety does? Not very consistent on your part.


Ben has missed FIVE more games and you havent seen a game with 5 sacks, 6 sacks, 7 sacks 8 sacks or 9 sacks UNLESS BEN IS THE QB. Why is that? When you subtract ONE person the sack level goes down, why is that? Notice I havent called you any names. Noitce I just humbly pick apart your flimsy posts with class.

Why is what? Is it remotely possible for you to condense whatever it is you're trying to say into one statement? Are we still going on the "Ben gets sacked soooo often because he leaves the pocket early" or something else? Considering your propensity for not sticking with a specific point it's hard to tell.

I don't recall calling you any names. Would you care to provide evidence of such? I'd appreciate it. And class? Really? Picking and choosing what points to continue with and then abandoning the ones you're called out on isn't classy. It's considered intellectual dishonesty. Moving the goal posts whenever you're proven wrong isn't classy. It's considered bad form. Ignoring proof that is contrary to your own opinions isn't classy, and it has no part in a civil conversation.

eniparadoxgma
10-08-2012, 02:23 PM
You stated that you wanted to compare OTHER TOP qbs vs top defenses. So I provided you with some and cited their stats vs us. Sorry if you dont like the results.

I asked you to provide stats from ANY QB that did better against "top" defenses than defenses that were not. I don't see any evidence to that effect. And why would you hand pick those three quarterbacks and their stats vs our defense? To do it correctly wouldn't you need to show their statistics against all of the top defenses as you did for Ben. Again, that's just bad form...and very telling.


WHY is his stats subpar vs the good teams? Whereas the elite qbs play good no matter the competition. Do explain

Define "subpar" and "good". Who exactly are "elite quarterbacks" and who and what decides that criteria? I have yet to see evidence that any QB plays better against top defenses than non-top defenses. Still waiting...

Steelgal
10-08-2012, 03:22 PM
Wow...will this thread never end???? stopplayin is nothing more than a troll who likes to stir the pot and look for an argument.

I'm sure he'll reply, but since he's on ignore I won't see it :p

eniparadoxgma
10-08-2012, 06:17 PM
Wow...will this thread never end???? stopplayin is nothing more than a troll who likes to stir the pot and look for an argument.

I'm sure he'll reply, but since he's on ignore I won't see it :p

But...but...

http://i.imgur.com/wQ8Vf.png

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 11:16 PM
Hand picking stats is a good way to put it. I could say 4 way stop signs aren't necessary and pull up thousands of intersections across the country that don't have 4way stop signs or accidents. Does that really prove they're not needed? Not really.

Handpicked? Every game is vs a top 10 D. Do the same for Brady, Manning and the other elites. What do you find?

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 11:24 PM
I asked you to provide stats from ANY QB that did better against "top" defenses than defenses that were not. I don't see any evidence to that effect. And why would you hand pick those three quarterbacks and their stats vs our defense? To do it correctly wouldn't you need to show their statistics against all of the top defenses as you did for Ben. Again, that's just bad form...and very telling.



Define "subpar" and "good". Who exactly are "elite quarterbacks" and who and what decides that criteria? I have yet to see evidence that any QB plays better against top defenses than non-top defenses. Still waiting...

I dont watch EVERY game the elite qbs play. I just watch EVERY Steeler game. ITS YOUR JOB to prove me wrong so YOU do the homework. I provided my proof against Ben, YOU stated you wanted to see what the stats to the others vs a top D are. So if you want to know then YOU do the research. I have provided Mannings stats vs US, as well as Brees and Brady. The stats are EXCELLENT and we are a TOP D. Why do they do so well vs us and Ben struggles vs an elite D? The answer is the one that you dont like. Oh well.

My case was against Ben. If you want evidence of the others then again DO THE RESEARCH. We had our TOUGHEST schedule ever in 08. Look at Bens stats that season. Ben had TWENTY FOUR turnovers that year. Elite? Hardly.

Lastly, Ben is GOOD just not elite. If you think different then that is your opinion. The only arguement you have is that "Ben wins". Well so does Batch and Dixon and Kordell (All Bums) so I by your definition are they eleete. (Mispelling just for you sir lol)

stopplayn
10-08-2012, 11:25 PM
Ben Roethlisberger is 10-4 in the playoffs with 21 TDS and 18 INTS. Yep thats elite

Slapstick
10-09-2012, 06:38 AM
Ben Roethlisberger is 10-4 in the playoffs with 21 TDS and 18 INTS. Yep thats elite

Well, 10 playoff wins is good for #8 all time...

His .714 win % also ranks among the greats...especially among those who played in more than 10 playoff games...it ranks ahead of Joe Montana, John Elway, Brett Favre, and Roger Staubach...

He is one of 11 QBs with multipe SB wins...

Yep, that's elite...

Steelgal
10-09-2012, 07:06 AM
But...but...

http://i.imgur.com/wQ8Vf.png

Now that is hilarious :)

stopplayn
10-09-2012, 10:50 AM
Well, 10 playoff wins is good for #8 all time...

His .714 win % also ranks among the greats...especially among those who played in more than 10 playoff games...it ranks ahead of Joe Montana, John Elway, Brett Favre, and Roger Staubach...

He is one of 11 QBs with multipe SB wins...

Yep, that's elite...

You quoted ALL TEAM accolades. All I need to know. THX for playing

Slapstick
10-09-2012, 11:51 AM
So, Montana, Elway and Staubach are not elite?

stopplayn
10-13-2012, 12:10 PM
Well, 10 playoff wins is good for #8 all time...

His .714 win % also ranks among the greats...especially among those who played in more than 10 playoff games...it ranks ahead of Joe Montana, John Elway, Brett Favre, and Roger Staubach...

He is one of 11 QBs with multipe SB wins...

Yep, that's elite...

.714 is a TEAM accolade. Why are you hesitant to list INDIVIDUAL accolades? Jim Mcmahon and Jim Plunkett are multiple Sb winners too. Elite? NOPE