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View Full Version : Serious Question: If this season goes seriously sideways, do the Rooney's blow it up?



BigRob
09-14-2012, 02:02 PM
Let me be clear. I am not giving up on this season. All these injuries to the elder Steelers just got me thinking a little.

If we struggle this year and end up with a losing season, do the Rooneys blow up the roster to recover cap space and go "young"?

Could we see the last of Troy, Harrison, Hampton, Clark, Foote, Keisel, and others this year? What do you think?

Oviedo
09-14-2012, 02:07 PM
Several of us started saying last year the Steelers are at the point of a "Generational change" WRT the roster. If it goes really bad expect tough decisions to made on guys like Harrison, Polamalu, Kiesel, etc. The reality was that the genesis of the run we had in the last 10 years was the bad years we had at the end of the 1990s. I think we are going the right direction on offense with Haley and some good young talent. Not so sure that is the case on defense.

That said, it is not the Rooney's way to "blow up" anything. They are more about managed, controlled change.

stopplayn
09-14-2012, 02:22 PM
Troy is our best player. Get rid of him? Never. He will retire in the burgh

BigRob
09-14-2012, 02:25 PM
That said, it is not the Rooney's way to "blow up" anything. They are more about managed, controlled change.

Very true statement. I know the Steelers will be competitive with BR, but we are up against the cap big time and it is going to remain flat going into next season. I think that is going to play a big part in all of this.

BigRob
09-14-2012, 02:25 PM
Polamalu could retire after this year. Football is not everything to him, don't expect him to keep hanging on like others. He is 31 and has bigger plans for his life than football.

Slapstick
09-14-2012, 02:42 PM
Polamalu could retire after this year. Football is not everything to him, don't expect him to keep hanging on like others. He is 31 and has bigger plans for his life than football.

Troy is signed through 2014...I think he signed only a 4 year extension with the intention that he would complete it...

BigRob
09-14-2012, 03:17 PM
Troy is signed through 2014...I think he signed only a 4 year extension with the intention that he would complete it...

Likely was his intent, but Salary Cap and health may play a bigger factor than originally intended.

RuthlessBurgher
09-14-2012, 03:56 PM
Hampton and Foote are signed for this year only. They will be free agents after this season. Hampton just turned 35 earlier this month, and Foote turned 32 back in June. I don't expect either of them to be back after this contract.

Clark and Keisel are signed for this season and the following season. They will be free agents at the end of next season. Clark will turn 33 next month and Keisel will turn 34 next week. I don't expect either of them to be back after this contract is up. I don't think Clark's eventual replacement is currently on our roster (I think we draft a safety high next year in a solid draft for safety prospects), so I think he sticks around next year for one last year as a starter while his eventual replacement has a chance to learn the ropes. Keisel's eventual replacement is already here, but I think he hangs around next season because of the leadership he brings as a captain. And I think a rotation with Heyward this season keeps him fresh, so his body could last a little longer than it would if we were still counting on him for full-time snaps.

Troy and Deebo are signed for this season, next season, and the following season as well. They will be free agents at the end of the 2014 season. Troy turned 31 in April. He'll be 33 at the end of the 2014 season and 34 at the start of the 2015 season. Deebo turned 34 in April. He'll be 36 at the end of the 2014 season and 37 at the start of the 2015 season. I don't expect either of them to be back after this contract is up. These two are the marquee players on our defense. As long as lingering injuries or unexpected retirements don't intervene, I'd imagine the team would like to keep them on our roster as long as possible under their current contracts (even if they aren't their old dominant DMVP selves later in their careers). If Ray Lewis (currently 37) and Ed Reed (currently 34) can keep performing at their age, why couldn't Harrison and Polamalu do the same by the end of their contracts?

SidSmythe
09-14-2012, 04:02 PM
Hampton and Foote are signed for this year only. They will be free agents after this season. Hampton just turned 35 earlier this month, and Foote turned 32 back in June. I don't expect either of them to be back after this contract.

Clark and Keisel are signed for this season and the following season. They will be free agents at the end of next season. Clark will turn 33 next month and Keisel will turn 34 next week. I don't expect either of them to be back after this contract is up. I don't think Clark's eventual replacement is currently on our roster (I think we draft a safety high next year in a solid draft for safety prospects), so I think he sticks around next year for one last year as a starter while his eventual replacement has a chance to learn the ropes. Keisel's eventual replacement is already here, but I think he hangs around next season because of the leadership he brings as a captain. And I think a rotation with Heyward this season keeps him fresh, so his body could last a little longer than it would if we were still counting on him for full-time snaps.

Troy and Deebo are signed for this season, next season, and the following season as well. They will be free agents at the end of the 2014 season. Troy turned 31 in April. He'll be 33 at the end of the 2014 season and 34 at the start of the 2015 season. Deebo turned 34 in April. He'll be 36 at the end of the 2014 season and 37 at the start of the 2015 season. I don't expect either of them to be back after this contract is up. These two are the marquee players on our defense. As long as lingering injuries or unexpected retirements don't intervene, I'd imagine the team would like to keep them on our roster as long as possible under their current contracts (even if they aren't their old dominant DMVP selves later in their careers). If Ray Lewis (currently 37) and Ed Reed (currently 34) can keep performing at their age, why couldn't Harrison and Polamalu do the same by the end of their contracts?

At this point I think it's a HEALTH issue, not a performance issue.

Troy is 1 concussion away from calling it quits I believe

RuthlessBurgher
09-14-2012, 04:08 PM
At this point I think it's a HEALTH issue, not a performance issue.

Troy is 1 concussion away from calling it quits I believe

Think the Seau suicide this offseason has something to do with that?

SidSmythe
09-14-2012, 04:12 PM
Think the Seau suicide this offseason has something to do with that?

Never really thought about it that way....but I suppose that didn't help.
I just think Troy is a leveled headed man (off the football field, haha) who won't let football ruin his future.

aggiebones
09-14-2012, 05:30 PM
In 1989 the Steelers lose 51-0 to the BROWNS.
They came back and went to the 2nd round of the playoffs that year losing by 1 point to Denver.

Hypothetical kneejerks aren't needed today. The Rooney's NEVER kneejerk.
So no, they won't and this team will be in the playoffs barring a massive injury problem or to Ben.

hawaiiansteel
09-14-2012, 05:36 PM
no, the Rooneys will always do what is best for the franchise and blowing things up is not their style...

NJ-STEELER
09-14-2012, 05:48 PM
everyone on that list besides troy might be done after this year anyway

BigRob
09-14-2012, 05:57 PM
In 1989 the Steelers lose 51-0 to the BROWNS.
They came back and went to the 2nd round of the playoffs that year losing by 1 point to Denver.

Hypothetical kneejerks aren't needed today. The Rooney's NEVER kneejerk.
So no, they won't and this team will be in the playoffs barring a massive injury problem or to Ben.




Not a knee jerk reaction, just a thoughtful analysis of what could possibly happen. Not bailing on the season at all. It is entirely reasonable to see that this could be the last season for some Steeler greats.

BigRob
09-14-2012, 05:58 PM
Agree it is not their style, but I could see some big changes forced by health, age, and salary cap.

If Foote plays well, I can see him being brought back for one more. Keisel and Foote likely to stay. For health reasons I could see this being it for Deebo and Polamalu.

RuthlessBurgher
09-14-2012, 06:20 PM
In 1989 the Steelers lose 51-0 to the BROWNS.
They came back and went to the 2nd round of the playoffs that year losing by 1 point to Denver.

Hypothetical kneejerks aren't needed today. The Rooney's NEVER kneejerk.
So no, they won't and this team will be in the playoffs barring a massive injury problem or to Ben.

Not to mention the opener last year in which we turned the ball over 7 times in a 35-7 drubbing to Baltimore (only to win 12 of the remaining 15 games) or the Eagles sacking Ben 8 times (plus Leftwich once more) and our rushing game only managing 32 yards on 19 carries in one of the most offensively inept performances that I have ever seen in early 2008 (only to finish that season with an amazing clutch drive to win Super Bowl XLIII in Tampa). This loss to the Broncos does not come anywhere close to the whoopings we took in each of other instances, but we someone came out of each situation as a successful team as usual. People really need to stop overreacting about one (close) game.

SDSteel1
09-15-2012, 12:40 AM
Think the Seau suicide this offseason has something to do with that?

Seau's suicide shouldn't affect Troy at all, because it was just the opposite of the way Troy lives. Junior was depressed not due to concussions, but due to not being the man in the spot light. He needed the game....not only for his identity, but financially and to keep him in check. He was almost broke, and had drug and alcohol issues, as well as relationship problems. Football was his paycheck, his babysitter, and his get away.

flippy
09-15-2012, 06:20 AM
Not to mention the opener last year in which we turned the ball over 7 times in a 35-7 drubbing to Baltimore (only to win 12 of the remaining 15 games) or the Eagles sacking Ben 8 times (plus Leftwich once more) and our rushing game only managing 32 yards on 19 carries in one of the most offensively inept performances that I have ever seen in early 2008 (only to finish that season with an amazing clutch drive to win Super Bowl XLIII in Tampa). This loss to the Broncos does not come anywhere close to the whoopings we took in each of other instances, but we someone came out of each situation as a successful team as usual. People really need to stop overreacting about one (close) game.

There was some good overreacting mojo going on back then. Maybe that helped get us to the promised land.

I think we coulda pulled some playoff magic out last year if Ben were healthier. Actually I was thinking his injury last year was setting up for his most epic playoff performance of all time.

Too bad big Denver WRs might be Ike Taylor's kryptonite. From Javon Walker to D Thomas.

Slapstick
09-15-2012, 06:59 AM
Too bad big Denver WRs might be Ike Taylor's kryptonite. From Javon Walker to D Thomas.

On Sunday, holding was Ike's kryptonite...

NorthCoast
09-15-2012, 08:52 AM
I don't think they will blow things up, but you may be seeing the end of the LeBeau regime... (which should make some of you happy)

BURGH86STEEL
09-15-2012, 09:41 AM
blowing things up would mean starting over. seems like the organisation never blows things up. thye find ways to retool to remain competitive.

Mister Pittsburgh
09-15-2012, 10:03 AM
I keep reading that blowing things up isn't the Steelers style, but neither is signing players over 30 to new contracts. We used to have the ability to draft & groom young players to take over when a veterans contract was up. Under Tomlin we have had to re-sign Clark, Ike, Casey due to having nobody ready.

We signed Harrison to a new deal because he was coming off defensive player of the year honors. Tough to let that go but still not the Rooney way.

Then to top it off we had to bring back Foote because of having no ILB groomed. When was the last time you saw us bring someone back after they left to chase the money. We also did the same with McFadden who sucked.

BigRob
09-25-2012, 03:50 PM
Let me be clear. I am not giving up on this season. All these injuries to the elder Steelers just got me thinking a little.

If we struggle this year and end up with a losing season, do the Rooneys blow up the roster to recover cap space and go "young"?

Could we see the last of Troy, Harrison, Hampton, Clark, Foote, Keisel, and others this year? What do you think?

I am beginning to think more and more that this is going to be a huge change in the off-season for this team. With the flat cap and lots of money tied up in under performing contracts, I see big changes coming. I.e....

Lebeau gone, serious cap cuts, etc..

What say you?

Oviedo
09-25-2012, 04:08 PM
I keep reading that blowing things up isn't the Steelers style, but neither is signing players over 30 to new contracts. We used to have the ability to draft & groom young players to take over when a veterans contract was up. Under Tomlin we have had to re-sign Clark, Ike, Casey due to having nobody ready.

We signed Harrison to a new deal because he was coming off defensive player of the year honors. Tough to let that go but still not the Rooney way.

Then to top it off we had to bring back Foote because of having no ILB groomed. When was the last time you saw us bring someone back after they left to chase the money. We also did the same with McFadden who sucked.

I think it is time to make a clean break from the last decade and and set us up for the remainder of this decade. We have some good pieces in place, especially on offense, but we have to get the cap right and give ourselves flexibility.

As I see it:

Likely gone: Hampton, Foote, Will Allen, and Harrison. IMO Harrison has to go unless he has a sensational season coming back from this knee injury. If he stays it will have to be at a reduced rate.

Possibly gone: Kiesel, Colon, Mendenhall, Keenan Lewis

Probably should be gone but no replacement so will likely stay: Ryan Clark, Max Starks, Ike Taylor

Get rid of half of the players listed and maybe we can resign Wallace )if he returns to the Land of the Reasonable), keep Sanders and extend Pouncey.

The real quandry is with Troy P. Will he want to keep playing? Can he still be the special player he was before? We are essentially screwed at Safety so we have to hope both Polamalu and Clark have one more great season in them.

That gets us to coaches: Anyone still think that LeBeau should have the freedom to stay as long as he wants? We need a leadership change on defense. It did wonders on offense so far this season.

BigRob
09-25-2012, 05:29 PM
I think it is time to make a clean break from the last decade and and set us up for the remainder of this decade. We have some good pieces in place, especially on offense, but we have to get the cap right and give ourselves flexibility.

As I see it:

Likely gone: Hampton, Foote, Will Allen, and Harrison. IMO Harrison has to go unless he has a sensational season coming back from this knee injury. If he stays it will have to be at a reduced rate.

Possibly gone: Kiesel, Colon, Mendenhall, Keenan Lewis

Probably should be gone but no replacement so will likely stay: Ryan Clark, Max Starks, Ike Taylor

Get rid of half of the players listed and maybe we can resign Wallace )if he returns to the Land of the Reasonable), keep Sanders and extend Pouncey.

The real quandry is with Troy P. Will he want to keep playing? Can he still be the special player he was before? We are essentially screwed at Safety so we have to hope both Polamalu and Clark have one more great season in them.

That gets us to coaches: Anyone still think that LeBeau should have the freedom to stay as long as he wants? We need a leadership change on defense. It did wonders on offense so far this season.

I agree with your assessment of players and I would add that I think Troy could possibly hang it up after this year.

D Rock
09-25-2012, 05:37 PM
I don't think Keith Butler is the answer if Lebeau goes...what would be any different, really?


This team needs new brains from the outside. Someone willing to focus on the pass rush and bring the heat with guys who can do it own their own without fancy schemes and blitzes.

BigRob
09-25-2012, 06:24 PM
I don't think Keith Butler is the answer if Lebeau goes...what would be any different, really?


This team needs new brains from the outside. Someone willing to focus on the pass rush and bring the heat with guys who can do it own their own without fancy schemes and blitzes.

What makes you think he's just a Lebeau clone? Was Rex Ryan the same guy as Mike Nolan when he took over? Nope. There's a reason why everyone and their momma has been trying to hire Butler away from Pittsburgh.

D Rock
09-25-2012, 07:19 PM
What makes you think he's just a Lebeau clone? Was Rex Ryan the same guy as Mike Nolan when he took over? Nope. There's a reason why everyone and their momma has been trying to hire Butler away from Pittsburgh.

I figure that has a lot to do with him being Lebeau's #2 man, and how successful the Steelers D has been over the years.

It would seem that the odds are better that he is more like Lebeau than he is different from him.

BigRob
09-25-2012, 07:35 PM
You know what they say about ASSumptions right? Butler is a different guy and would likely have his own opinion on how things should be defended.

D Rock
09-25-2012, 08:31 PM
You know what they say about ASSumptions right? Butler is a different guy and would likely have his own opinion on how things should be defended.

yet here we both are, throwing our assumptions around. We aren't so different, you and I.

NJ-STEELER
09-26-2012, 07:01 AM
Just like the offense

I think a fresh face is the way to go

Oviedo
09-26-2012, 08:22 AM
I don't think Keith Butler is the answer if Lebeau goes...what would be any different, really?


This team needs new brains from the outside. Someone willing to focus on the pass rush and bring the heat with guys who can do it own their own without fancy schemes and blitzes.

Maybe someone can confirm but If I am correct, Keith Butler played LB in a 4-3 defnse. Combine that with Tomlin's experience and the alignment just seems like a change could be a real possibility.

IMO LeBeau has illustrated, just like JoePa, how "legends" can hold an organization hostage and actually be a detriment to progress. Once they get the "legend" moniker they pretty much get to do what they want because of the negative attention it would cause forcing them out. I hope LeBeau does the classy thing and just leaves on his own after this season. That would be the best thank you he could give the Steelers.

Slapstick
09-26-2012, 08:55 AM
Maybe someone can confirm but If I am correct, Keith Butler played LB in a 4-3 defnse. Combine that with Tomlin's experience and the alignment just seems like a change could be a real possibility.

IMO LeBeau has illustrated, just like JoePa, how "legends" can hold an organization hostage and actually be a detriment to progress. Once they get the "legend" moniker they pretty much get to do what they want because of the negative attention it would cause forcing them out. I hope LeBeau does the classy thing and just leaves on his own after this season. That would be the best thank you he could give the Steelers.

Butler played in a 3-4 defense at Seattle...

In 1984, the Seahawks actually had one of the great defensive seasons in the NFL (look it up!) under defensive coordinator, Tom Catlin. Tom Catlin learned the 3-4 while playing for Coach Bud Wilkinson at Oklahoma University in the 50s...Wilkinson is widely credited as the originator of the 3-4 defense...

That being said, Butler has lots of experience in both defensive fronts...

The talk about LeBeau "holding the franchise hostage" is a ridiculous assertion...if the defenses had been terrible for his tenure, it might be a valid argument...but, they haven't been and it isn't...

If goig to three SBs and winning two is "being held hostage", then consider me as having Stockholm Syndrome!!

phillyesq
09-26-2012, 10:13 AM
Maybe someone can confirm but If I am correct, Keith Butler played LB in a 4-3 defnse. Combine that with Tomlin's experience and the alignment just seems like a change could be a real possibility.


A real possibility only in your mind. Ziggy Hood played on 36 passing downs without a single QB pressure. You want to build a defense predicated on his ability to get pressure? McClendon has disappeared after his big preseason game. Keisel is getting up in years as is Hampton. Even if you move Woodley to DE, you still need to bring in a lot of DEs and NTs. Those guys take time to develop, are expensive, and are risky draft picks.

The defensive line has been a liability this year. I'd prefer to see less of them on the field, not more.

Oviedo
09-26-2012, 10:20 AM
A real possibility only in your mind. Ziggy Hood played on 36 passing downs without a single QB pressure. You want to build a defense predicated on his ability to get pressure? McClendon has disappeared after his big preseason game. Keisel is getting up in years as is Hampton. Even if you move Woodley to DE, you still need to bring in a lot of DEs and NTs. Those guys take time to develop, are expensive, and are risky draft picks.

The defensive line has been a liability this year. I'd prefer to see less of them on the field, not more.

We shall see:D

Remember, in our scheme Hood is not suppose to pressure the passer. He is suppose to "occupy" the OL and then secondarily go after the passer. My point has always been what would we see if these guys were just turned loose. That is what makes for a discussion board. What I think and what you think.

phillyesq
09-26-2012, 11:28 AM
We shall see


Remember, in our scheme Hood is not suppose to pressure the passer. He is suppose to "occupy" the OL and then secondarily go after the passer. My point has always been what would we see if these guys were just turned loose. That is what makes for a discussion board. What I think and what you think.

In neutral situations (first and ten) you want the DE to demand and fight-off a double team, and yes, this would occupy 2 blockers and allow the LBers to make plays. First and foremost, Ziggy can't do this. He was getting blown off the ball. On McFadden's short TD run, Ziggy was blown back into the endzone

In obvious passing situations, you want the DEs to get after the QB, and Ziggy Hood can't do it. He is a liability and is playing below the level that we were accustomed to seeing from Nick Eason. Even the thought of building a defense that features the DL makes me shudder at this point.

Slapstick
09-26-2012, 12:04 PM
A real possibility only in your mind. Ziggy Hood played on 36 passing downs without a single QB pressure. You want to build a defense predicated on his ability to get pressure? McClendon has disappeared after his big preseason game. Keisel is getting up in years as is Hampton. Even if you move Woodley to DE, you still need to bring in a lot of DEs and NTs. Those guys take time to develop, are expensive, and are risky draft picks.

The defensive line has been a liability this year. I'd prefer to see less of them on the field, not more.

There may be some truth to the idea that Ziggy is playing out of position...

Even if this is the case, he isn't even playing as well as he did before...he was never Aaron Smith, but I don't recall him being pushed around like this previously...

Heck, Keisel is way off his game as well...

Dee Dub
09-26-2012, 12:32 PM
Let me be clear. I am not giving up on this season. All these injuries to the elder Steelers just got me thinking a little.

If we struggle this year and end up with a losing season, do the Rooneys blow up the roster to recover cap space and go "young"?

Could we see the last of Troy, Harrison, Hampton, Clark, Foote, Keisel, and others this year? What do you think?

Hampton, Foote, and Keisel? I sure hope so. Add Ike Taylor to it too. Replace them with Manti Te'o, Alameda Ta'amu, Cameron Heyward and Sam Shields (free agent CB Packers) and I think this defense becomes dominate again. But I know...it will never happen.

phillyesq
09-26-2012, 12:37 PM
Hampton, Foote, and Keisel? I sure hope so. Add Ike Taylor to it too. Replace them with Manti Te'o, Alameda Ta'amu, Cameron Heyward and Sam Shields (free agent CB Packers) and I think this defense becomes dominate again. But I know...it will never happen.

Dub, I always enjoy seeing your perspective on player evaluations, but I just don't see Ike Taylor as a problem on the defense. Aside from Demaryus Thomas, he is still pretty good against the rest of the league.

BigRob
09-26-2012, 12:49 PM
yet here we both are, throwing our assumptions around. We aren't so different, you and I.

Exactly :)

RuthlessBurgher
09-26-2012, 01:15 PM
We shall see:D

Remember, in our scheme Hood is not suppose to pressure the passer. He is suppose to "occupy" the OL and then secondarily go after the passer. My point has always been what would we see if these guys were just turned loose. That is what makes for a discussion board. What I think and what you think.

Against the Raiders, the damage was done in the 2nd half when Oakland was playing catch-up and therefore passing, meaning that we were in nickel and dime defenses when the d-linemen like Hood are in a 4 man front and are charged with rushing the passer, not in a 3 man front occupying blockers. How much pressure did we see from the 4-man DL in the second half?

Dee Dub
09-26-2012, 01:57 PM
Dub, I always enjoy seeing your perspective on player evaluations, but I just don't see Ike Taylor as a problem on the defense. Aside from Demaryus Thomas, he is still pretty good against the rest of the league.

I see Taylor getting beat often this season. And he is also getting flagged for PI more than his share. Ike Taylor is not what you think he is. Serious just watch him exclusively and you will see what I am talking about.

Oviedo
09-26-2012, 02:26 PM
Against the Raiders, the damage was done in the 2nd half when Oakland was playing catch-up and therefore passing, meaning that we were in nickel and dime defenses when the d-linemen like Hood are in a 4 man front and are charged with rushing the passer, not in a 3 man front occupying blockers. How much pressure did we see from the 4-man DL in the second half?

We saw little because they knew exactly what we were doing so they max protect. It's that whole predictability thing again. They were passing and they knew that we would mostly rush the 4 DL with everyone else dropping into zone coverage. They therefore max protected.

phillyesq
09-26-2012, 02:44 PM
We saw little because they knew exactly what we were doing so they max protect. It's that whole predictability thing again. They were passing and they knew that we would mostly rush the 4 DL with everyone else dropping into zone coverage. They therefore max protected.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a few years ago, when the Colts/Bears played in the SB, weren't you calling for a Tampa 2?

If the Steelers implement a 4-3, that would make it pretty easy and predictable to identify the rushers, would it not?

RuthlessBurgher
09-26-2012, 03:45 PM
We saw little because they knew exactly what we were doing so they max protect. It's that whole predictability thing again. They were passing and they knew that we would mostly rush the 4 DL with everyone else dropping into zone coverage. They therefore max protected.

You've been preaching about wanting a 4 man line where those 4 DL provide the pass rush, and therefore dropping 7 into coverage...what is more predictable than that?

NJ-STEELER
09-27-2012, 01:59 AM
i think in those cases(4-3) when a LB does blitz its more of a surprise and harder to pick up.

OL know we're bringing some heat with the LBs so they're prepared for the pick up.

also you'll have 4 guys that are used to rushing the passer and 7 used to cover instead of miscasting someone like woodley in covrage or as we see sometimes a DL dropping back in a zone blitz

Oviedo
09-27-2012, 08:05 AM
i think in those cases(4-3) when a LB does blitz its more of a surprise and harder to pick up.

OL know we're bringing some heat with the LBs so they're prepared for the pick up.

also you'll have 4 guys that are used to rushing the passer and 7 used to cover instead of miscasting someone like woodley in covrage or as we see sometimes a DL dropping back in a zone blitz


NJ Steelers gets it. Our players right now are better suited to play the 4-3. Woodley should not be dropping into coverage. He should be pinning his ears back and going after the QB ala Jason Pierre Paul with the Giants. Timmons should be using his speed on the outside not mitigating it running into a pile of Offensive Linemen.

feltdizz
09-27-2012, 09:37 AM
NJ Steelers gets it. Our players right now are better suited to play the 4-3. Woodley should not be dropping into coverage. He should be pinning his ears back and going after the QB ala Jason Pierre Paul with the Giants. Timmons should be using his speed on the outside not mitigating it running into a pile of Offensive Linemen.

imagine a CB blitzing on the edge... and mixing up blitz packages while getting pressure from the front 4. I see everyone else doing it and having more success then we are...

the 3-4 is great when you have unpredictable blitzes... but that ain't happening... and lately our projects haven't panned out.

I would love to see us draft a few DL and let them do what they do instead of breaking them down and building them up.

Oviedo
09-27-2012, 09:57 AM
imagine a CB blitzing on the edge... and mixing up blitz packages while getting pressure from the front 4. I see everyone else doing it and having more success then we are...

the 3-4 is great when you have unpredictable blitzes... but that ain't happening... and lately our projects haven't panned out.

I would love to see us draft a few DL and let them do what they do instead of breaking them down and building them up.

You're singing the song that I have been criticized for singing the past two seasons (Truthfully I am a horrible singer, but this ain't a real song). You could see the trends repeatedly popping up over and over that have gotten us to where we are now. Too many wanted to trust in the past as a predictor of future success. Lots of businesses are bankrupt falling that philosophy.

Just getting Troy and Harrison (likely not back) isn't going to fix the passive playcalling and lack of innovation. We have to become full out aggressive and seize control of games.

ikestops85
09-27-2012, 12:54 PM
i think in those cases(4-3) when a LB does blitz its more of a surprise and harder to pick up.

OL know we're bringing some heat with the LBs so they're prepared for the pick up.

also you'll have 4 guys that are used to rushing the passer and 7 used to cover instead of miscasting someone like woodley in covrage or as we see sometimes a DL dropping back in a zone blitz

I think you are wrong when you say it's more of a surprise when they blitz from a 4-3 defense. The 3-4 has great flexibility and part of that is the offense doesn't ever know who the 4th rusher is going to be let alone who is blitzing. If we had 4 great pass rushers I would say go with the 4-3 on the passing downs. The problem is right now we only have one good pass rusher on the field, Woodley. I do agree that they should never drop him into coverage with the problem we our having getting pressure on the QB. Right now I think we need to either send the house or only send 3 and play a combo man and zone behind it.

Oviedo
09-27-2012, 03:56 PM
I think you are wrong when you say it's more of a surprise when they blitz from a 4-3 defense. The 3-4 has great flexibility and part of that is the offense doesn't ever know who the 4th rusher is going to be let alone who is blitzing. If we had 4 great pass rushers I would say go with the 4-3 on the passing downs. The problem is right now we only have one good pass rusher on the field, Woodley. I do agree that they should never drop him into coverage with the problem we our having getting pressure on the QB. Right now I think we need to either send the house or only send 3 and play a combo man and zone behind it.

Watch a NY Giants game. When they blitz a LB he is usually running free to the QB. That is because it is harder for a 5 man line to block 4 DL than for a 5 man line to block 2.5 DL (the .5 is Hampton because he gets no push therefore no threat).

ikestops85
09-27-2012, 05:35 PM
Watch a NY Giants game. When they blitz a LB he is usually running free to the QB. That is because it is harder for a 5 man line to block 4 DL than for a 5 man line to block 2.5 DL (the .5 is Hampton because he gets no push therefore no threat).

I have watched a Giant game and the reason a blitzing LB runs free for them is they have 4 primo pass rushers. We send 4 or 5 people 95% of the time when the opponent passes. Probably the same ratio as the Giants. The difference is their guys get to the QB. It's not that their scheme is brilliant. JPP just whips the butt of the guy across from him. Same with Justin Tuck. Without Harrison we have nobody who does it on a consistent basis.

What does make me scratch my head is why in the world would you talke Woodley off the field or drop him in coverage if it's a passing down. I don't know why LeBeau does that.

Oviedo
09-27-2012, 09:26 PM
I have watched a Giant game and the reason a blitzing LB runs free for them is they have 4 primo pass rushers. We send 4 or 5 people 95% of the time when the opponent passes. Probably the same ratio as the Giants. The difference is their guys get to the QB. It's not that their scheme is brilliant. JPP just whips the butt of the guy across from him. Same with Justin Tuck. Without Harrison we have nobody who does it on a consistent basis.

What does make me scratch my head is why in the world would you talke Woodley off the field or drop him in coverage if it's a passing down. I don't know why LeBeau does that.

Maybe the reason they have 4 "primo" pass rushers is because they scout players, they bring in players and let them play the positions they have played their whole lives and don't speculate that they might be able to convert them in a couple of years.

steelz09
09-28-2012, 09:41 AM
Yes.. the Rooneys will.

They will fire Tomlin and promote Haley to HC. That was the Rooney's strategy all along. Fire Arians... hire Haley as OC for one year with all intentions of replacing Tomlin.

All joking aside, I don't think the Rooney's will blow up anything but I will say the writing is on the wall for 2 players.

Harrison is likely gone
Hampton is gone

Other possibilities....

Keisel might stick around for another year.
Foote might have another year

I think Heyward can replace Keisel and McClendon and Ta'mu will be able to replace this older version of Hampton.

We have to hope Spence can recover and replace Foote.

Harrison has no replacement on this roster. We desperately need LB depth. We also need safety depth but I am hopeful that Robert Golden could have a solid future.

RuthlessBurgher
09-28-2012, 04:31 PM
Maybe the reason they have 4 "primo" pass rushers is because they scout players, they bring in players and let them play the positions they have played their whole lives and don't speculate that they might be able to convert them in a couple of years.

Pierre-Paul was total speculation, though. They gambled on a high-risk, high-reward player, and lucked out that he turned out awesome...he just as easily could have been a Mike Mamula looks-like-Tarzan-plays-like-Jane combine workout warrior freak.

lloydroid
09-28-2012, 04:40 PM
I have watched a Giant game and the reason a blitzing LB runs free for them is they have 4 primo pass rushers. We send 4 or 5 people 95% of the time when the opponent passes. Probably the same ratio as the Giants. The difference is their guys get to the QB. It's not that their scheme is brilliant. JPP just whips the butt of the guy across from him. Same with Justin Tuck. Without Harrison we have nobody who does it on a consistent basis.

What does make me scratch my head is why in the world would you talke Woodley off the field or drop him in coverage if it's a passing down. I don't know why LeBeau does that.

Honestly, DL does a lot of things that don't seem that smart; like he is being tricky for tricky sake, but not really putting the players in position to do what they do best. such as putting Woodley into coverage. Hey, do it once in a while maybe, but not as much as they do. He is not built for it; it's a waste of pass rushing talent. And so what if the opponent doesn't know who is coming, if those who "are coming" can't get to the QB any how.

lloydroid
09-28-2012, 04:48 PM
Pierre-Paul was total speculation, though. They gambled on a high-risk, high-reward player, and lucked out that he turned out awesome...he just as easily could have been a Mike Mamula looks-like-Tarzan-plays-like-Jane combine workout warrior freak.

I don't think PP was as much of a gamble as MM. PP showed brilliant flashes, he was just raw. MM was a full-time, long-time football player who didn't ever put up much production; all he showed was combine #s. I like Jimmy Johnson's mentality with drafting: consider actual production much higher than combine #s. That mentality allowed him to build a dynasty in Dallas, and build a fairly solid team in Miami (although he was strapped with having to stay with Marino, who hurt Jimmy's system as he had to cater to keeping Marino passing first and foremost, and that hurt his rushing efforts, as Marino telegraphed when the rush was coming, because he played on stilts, and when he handed off, it was obvious 3 seconds before he did so.)

Combine # alone don't mean anything. You can be a tremendous athlete but not a football player. If not, every great sprinter would go into the NFL, ala Willie Gault. But they rarely translate when they try; he was the sprinter who played for SF? Rod Woodson had sprinter speed, but he was a football player, first and foremost.

ikestops85
09-28-2012, 04:57 PM
I don't think PP was as much of a gamble as MM. PP showed brilliant flashes, he was just raw. MM was a full-time, long-time football player who didn't ever put up much production; all he showed was combine #s. I like Jimmy Johnson's mentality with drafting: consider actual production much higher than combine #s. That mentality allowed him to build a dynasty in Dallas, and build a fairly solid team in Miami (although he was strapped with having to stay with Marino, who hurt Jimmy's system as he had to cater to keeping Marino passing first and foremost, and that hurt his rushing efforts, as Marino telegraphed when the rush was coming, because he played on stilts, and when he handed off, it was obvious 3 seconds before he did so.)

Combine # alone don't mean anything. You can be a tremendous athlete but not a football player. If not, every great sprinter would go into the NFL, ala Willie Gault. But they rarely translate when they try; he was the sprinter who played for SF? Rod Woodson had sprinter speed, but he was a football player, first and foremost.

Gault played for the Bears. The San Fran guy you are thinking of is probably Renaldo Nehemiah. He was a world class hurdler.

But your point is well taken. ;)

lloydroid
09-28-2012, 05:03 PM
The Rooneys never really "blow it up" so to speak. We are at a point - and they had this happen with Cowher too - where several guys who got big contracts are not living up to them. And last time we saw this (with Chad Scott, Gildon, Steed, Kirkland, Washington, Kordell) it led to our worst losing season in a decade. They had a bunch of players being over-paid to stink it up out there, and they stayed on this path for 2 years longer than they should have. I think we are at a very similar point right now. In all honesty, it is time to "cull the herd" after this season. If Troy remains hurt off and on all year, I say cut him. He's getting paid huge $ and can't stay on the field, ala Arron Smith. What's the point? I'd seriously considering moving past:

- Troy Polamalu - No matter how good a player is, he is worthless on the sidelines.
- Hampton - Does he do anything at this point other than taking up space
- Mendenhall - Just not a winner
- Redman - not a legit NFL running back.
- Mundy - who sucks
- Harrison - unless he makes miraculous comeback. I think his body is breaking down.

In the draft, go best player available CB, OLB, safety and running back, probably take two, one in the 3rd or 4th and one late. Maybe pick up another OG, as Colon is proving to suck. If Adams looks like he is developing then don't draft a OT. They must ACT NOW, as we won't have a franchise QB on the roster forever. And you don't win a ring without one, only in the rarest of circumstances, i.e. Dilfer in Balt., Johnson in Tampa....not many other instances come to mind.

lloydroid
09-28-2012, 05:05 PM
Gault played for the Bears. The San Fran guy you are thinking of is probably Renaldo Nehemiah. He was a world class hurdler.

But your point is well taken. ;)

Yea, I knew Gault was a Bear. And, yes, Nehemiah was the guy in SF. James Loften may have been another example; I don't know if he ever played track but he had sprinter speed.

BigRob
09-28-2012, 05:20 PM
The Rooneys never really "blow it up" so to speak. We are at a point - and they had this happen with Cowher too - where several guys who got big contracts are not living up to them. And last time we saw this (with Chad Scott, Gildon, Steed, Kirkland, Washington, Kordell) it led to our worst losing season in a decade. They had a bunch of players being over-paid to stink it up out there, and they stayed on this path for 2 years longer than they should have. I think we are at a very similar point right now. In all honesty, it is time to "cull the herd" after this season. If Troy remains hurt off and on all year, I say cut him. He's getting paid huge $ and can't stay on the field, ala Arron Smith. What's the point? I'd seriously considering moving past:

- Troy Polamalu - No matter how good a player is, he is worthless on the sidelines.
- Hampton - Does he do anything at this point other than taking up space
- Mendenhall - Just not a winner
- Redman - not a legit NFL running back.
- Mundy - who sucks
- Harrison - unless he makes miraculous comeback. I think his body is breaking down.

In the draft, go best player available CB, OLB, safety and running back, probably take two, one in the 3rd or 4th and one late. Maybe pick up another OG, as Colon is proving to suck. If Adams looks like he is developing then don't draft a OT. They must ACT NOW, as we won't have a franchise QB on the roster forever. And you don't win a ring without one, only in the rarest of circumstances, i.e. Dilfer in Balt., Johnson in Tampa....not many other instances come to mind.

If Colon continues to suck at OG, cut his azz too.

Oviedo
09-29-2012, 09:22 AM
If Colon continues to suck at OG, cut his azz too.

Colon just finished his third game in 3 years and at a new position. He will be fine as the season goes on.

The offense isn't costing us games.

BigRob
09-29-2012, 01:02 PM
Colon just finished his third game in 3 years and at a new position. He will be fine as the season goes on.

The offense isn't costing us games.

Thats why I said if he "continues" to suck azz. His play relative to his contract is crappy right now. If Foster outplays him this year, cut Colon's stinky azz (pun intended) and go with Foster and Decastro into the offseason.

We need to quit trying to plug old parts into new places if the experiment fails this year. If we have losing record, Steelers brass should do whatever it takes to clear huge amounts of cap space and work to get rebuilt in a hurry.

Now, if Colon comes around, then we will see.

BradshawsHairdresser
09-29-2012, 02:27 PM
Colon just finished his third game in 3 years and at a new position.

He's supposed to be a pro. He had all of training camp. Although it's a new position, he's not exactly a rookie. Time to quit making excuses for this turrd. And if he doesn't improve by season's end, I agree with BigRob, cut his expensive ar$$$e.

And all the false starts, for a LG? Inexcusable.

Eddie Spaghetti
09-29-2012, 02:36 PM
colon has been junk so far. Amazing that some can defend his play while continue to heap scorn on Foster, who is once again outplaying his higher paid counterpart on the other side.

he has been very consistent again this year, especially in light of the problems gilbert is having.

Oviedo
09-29-2012, 02:42 PM
colon has been junk so far. Amazing that some can defend his play while continue to heap scorn on Foster, who is once again outplaying his higher paid counterpart on the other side.

he has been very consistent again this year, especially in light of the problems gilbert is having.

Because Foster's play has been mediocre for going on three years and Colon for three games. The difference is obvious to anyone who wants to see it,.