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steelz09
09-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Over the years, we've seen this team transition quite a bit. Under Tomlin, the offense is much more explosive but what about defense?

It seems like Tomlin held onto most of the defensiveguys from the Cowher era and why wouldn'e he? Cowher drafted and developed great talent on defensive side of the ball.

Most of those guys from the Cowher era are either past their prime or released. My question is, where is the "new" talent? I think this D' is about average right now. The Steelers have ALWAYS been known to have a next wave of talent especially in regards to defense. Where are they? I thought CB might be the next wave but I'm not quite sure.

It's not like haven't drafted defensive players in the early rounds.

I have to point to Tomlin in this regard. Where is the development? Why isn't our defensive personnel progressing like our offensive players.

Oviedo
09-13-2012, 01:04 PM
Cowher coached in an era before the spigots were opened on passing offense. It's not like he demonstrated he had a clue how to stop a pass oriented attack. Just see his record against the Pats. There are far more great QBs and far more passing oriented offenses in the league than Cowher ever faced.

The problem is we are still running Cowher's stop the run first defense.

steelz09
09-13-2012, 01:08 PM
Elite QBs typically still torch us... so I'm not buying that. In addition to that, our rushing d is not even close to what it was back then. You can show me our defensive ratings all you want but I have 2 eyes and pretty good vision.

I can see that we are "selling" out to stop the rushing attack and it's making us very vulnerable in pass defense.

Shoe
09-13-2012, 01:20 PM
Elite QBs typically still torch us... so I'm not buying that. In addition to that, our rushing d is not even close to what it was back then. You can show me our defensive ratings all you want but I have 2 eyes and pretty good vision.

I can see that we are "selling" out to stop the rushing attack and it's making us very vulnerable in pass defense.

Spot on.
Our D is totally dependent on two aging superstars. TBH, anyone who thinks Harrison & Polamalu (the two aging superstars) can be "Troy Polamalu" and "James Harrison" are fooling themselves.
They can be reasonable facsimiles, but they can't deny Father Time. What should be happening is that young guys slowly take the mantle. That really hasn't happened. Woodley is very solid. But besides him, no one makes an "impact". Hood should be pushing the pocket--he's not. Timmons and Carter (albeit just one game for him) should be flashing across our screen--they're not. Tez Allen/Lewis should be stuck to their WR--they're not (really).

I'm really hoping the young guys step up and show more... especially Hood and Carter (if Harrison doesn't play). Hood came into this year with a lot of in-team hype--I'd like to see it. Carter needs to get in sniffing distance of the QB, like I thought he could.

Captain Lemming
09-13-2012, 01:25 PM
Elite QBs typically still torch us... so I'm not buying that. In addition to that, our rushing d is not even close to what it was back then. You can show me our defensive ratings all you want but I have 2 eyes and pretty good vision.

I can see that we are "selling" out to stop the rushing attack and it's making us very vulnerable in pass defense. What team consistently stops "elite QBs"? When we lost to Tebow, we sold out to stop the pass because of their tendencies. We gambled and got burned. We have in fact slowed Brady many times, even in loses. Historically, Manning has been hit and miss against our team. No team shuts down elite QBs consistently (NE owned Manning for awhile, not lately).

SteelCrazy
09-13-2012, 01:27 PM
In its complexity our defense is simple, the way we stop the pass is to be very disruptive. If we dont get to the passer we still need to do other things to ensure the play breaks down. The rule changes from Godell may be playing a part too, but our D is not getting to the passer, we're not making our presence known as a team or individually. Now, whether thats a result of poor drafting, poor coaching, or a combination, I dont know.

Captain Lemming
09-13-2012, 01:29 PM
Spot on.
Our D is totally dependent on two aging superstars. TBH, anyone who thinks Harrison & Polamalu (the two aging superstars) can be "Troy Polamalu" and "James Harrison" are fooling themselves.
They can be reasonable facsimiles, but they can't deny Father Time. What should be happening is that young guys slowly take the mantle. That really hasn't happened. Woodley is very solid. But besides him, no one makes an "impact". Hood should be pushing the pocket--he's not. Timmons and Carter (albeit just one game for him) should be flashing across our screen--they're not. Tez Allen/Lewis should be stuck to their WR--they're not (really).

I'm really hoping the young guys step up and show more... especially Hood and Carter (if Harrison doesn't play). Hood came into this year with a lot of in-team hype--I'd like to see it. Carter needs to get in sniffing distance of the QB, like I thought he could. Now THIS post makes more sense. The issue is not the DL defense, but whether the young guys can replace aging superstars. It is talent, not scheme.

steelz09
09-13-2012, 01:41 PM
Spot on.
Our D is totally dependent on two aging superstars. TBH, anyone who thinks Harrison & Polamalu (the two aging superstars) can be "Troy Polamalu" and "James Harrison" are fooling themselves.
They can be reasonable facsimiles, but they can't deny Father Time. What should be happening is that young guys slowly take the mantle. That really hasn't happened. Woodley is very solid. But besides him, no one makes an "impact". Hood should be pushing the pocket--he's not. Timmons and Carter (albeit just one game for him) should be flashing across our screen--they're not. Tez Allen/Lewis should be stuck to their WR--they're not (really).

I'm really hoping the young guys step up and show more... especially Hood and Carter (if Harrison doesn't play). Hood came into this year with a lot of in-team hype--I'd like to see it. Carter needs to get in sniffing distance of the QB, like I thought he could.

I couldn't agree more. I just don't see any of these young guys replacing any of our old guys that were the staple of great defense in the burgh'. I'm specifically pointing our the DL and LBs here. Woodley has been the only exception and he can even be a bit inconsistent.
Is it player leadership? Possibly.
Coaching? Possibly.
Drafting (possibly players that don't fit our system)? Possibly.

It seems like our younger talent are all producing at an 'average' level and that's simply not going to cut it. We need a couple of players to step up.

phillyesq
09-13-2012, 01:53 PM
Over the years, we've seen this team transition quite a bit. Under Tomlin, the offense is much more explosive but what about defense?

It seems like Tomlin held onto most of the defensiveguys from the Cowher era and why wouldn'e he? Cowher drafted and developed great talent on defensive side of the ball.

Most of those guys from the Cowher era are either past their prime or released. My question is, where is the "new" talent? I think this D' is about average right now. The Steelers have ALWAYS been known to have a next wave of talent especially in regards to defense. Where are they? I thought CB might be the next wave but I'm not quite sure.

It's not like haven't drafted defensive players in the early rounds.

I have to point to Tomlin in this regard. Where is the development? Why isn't our defensive personnel progressing like our offensive players.

When Larry Foote turns in your best defensive performance (though Troy also had an impact not seen on the stat sheet), you know there is an issue.

I think a lot of the problems start with the defensive line. Smith-Hampton=Kimo/Keisel were disruptive. They commanded the line of scrimmage. You either double teamed them or they destroyed plays.

Casey is not as explosive as he used to be, but still can at least hold his ground. I didn't see Ziggy or Heyward really step up and dominate in week 1, nor McClendon. If the defensive line is getting blown off the ball, the scheme doesn't matter. The results will not be good.

SteelCrazy
09-13-2012, 01:56 PM
I couldn't agree more. I just don't see any of these young guys replacing any of our old guys that were the staple of great defense in the burgh'. I'm specifically pointing our the DL and LBs here. Woodley has been the only exception and he can even be a bit inconsistent.
Is it player leadership? Possibly.
Coaching? Possibly.
Drafting (possibly players that don't fit our system)? Possibly.

It seems like our younger talent are all producing at an 'average' level and that's simply not going to cut it. We need a couple of players to step up.

We definitely do not have any young talent blowing it up. Chris Carter did a decent job, but he doesnt look like a guy ready to blow it up. We wont know about Spence until next year. Adrian Robinson seems like he may be a very good pass rusher, but if he cant learn the other aspects of the D, we may never see him on the field. Our CB's are also looking very suspect. Lewis looked way behind in Denver. Even worse than Willie Gay. I hope we look better against the Jets

RKSteel
09-13-2012, 02:35 PM
In its complexity our defense is simple, the way we stop the pass is to be very disruptive. If we dont get to the passer we still need to do other things to ensure the play breaks down. The rule changes from Godell may be playing a part too, but our D is not getting to the passer, we're not making our presence known as a team or individually. Now, whether thats a result of poor drafting, poor coaching, or a combination, I dont know. Godell wants touchdown passers. He does not want JH pile driving QBs into the ground. If he wasn't held on every freaking play, he'd have 50 sacks.

Sugar
09-13-2012, 02:55 PM
I wonder if some of these rule changes are a part of why Cowher doesn't seem to be interested in coming back? Many thought that he'd be out a few years and get "the itch" again after his daughters graduated. Perhaps he looks at the current NFL landscape and sees that things have changed enough that his way doesn't work so much anymore.

Slapstick
09-13-2012, 03:12 PM
Godell wants touchdown passers. He does not want JH pile driving QBs into the ground. If he wasn't held on every freaking play, he'd have 50 sacks.

If you think that the rule changes and Goodell's desire for high octane passing games isn't affecting the game, consider this:

Last year alone, the NFL had three 5,000+ yard passers...prior to last year, there were only two in the history of the NFL...Brees in 2008 and Marino in 1984...

And Eli Manning came within 70 yards of being a fourth 5,000+ yard passer last year...

phillyesq
09-13-2012, 03:29 PM
I wonder if some of these rule changes are a part of why Cowher doesn't seem to be interested in coming back? Many thought that he'd be out a few years and get "the itch" again after his daughters graduated. Perhaps he looks at the current NFL landscape and sees that things have changed enough that his way doesn't work so much anymore.

It could also be that he doesn't want to go back to the grind of coaching. He probably makes a 7 figure salary and has a pretty easy life. Why trade that for the life of a coach, which must be pretty rough?

Oviedo
09-13-2012, 04:04 PM
In its complexity our defense is simple, the way we stop the pass is to be very disruptive. If we dont get to the passer we still need to do other things to ensure the play breaks down. The rule changes from Godell may be playing a part too, but our D is not getting to the passer, we're not making our presence known as a team or individually. Now, whether thats a result of poor drafting, poor coaching, or a combination, I dont know.

Agree with all you said and that being said why aren't we adjusting to the changes in strategy and rules? I don't think our players aren't talented, if anything across the board they are more athletic than the players they have replaced.

Oviedo
09-13-2012, 04:05 PM
Godell wants touchdown passers. He does not want JH pile driving QBs into the ground. If he wasn't held on every freaking play, he'd have 50 sacks.

But that is how things are so what are other teams doing to adjust that we aren't? lamenting how things have changed won't help us win.

Oviedo
09-13-2012, 04:07 PM
It could also be that he doesn't want to go back to the grind of coaching. He probably makes a 7 figure salary and has a pretty easy life. Why trade that for the life of a coach, which must be pretty rough?


I stay right in the studio if I was hime. Guy probably has $20M in the bank and like you said makes very high six- or low seven-figures for watching film and talking. He probably can pick up some nice change making appearances and speaking too. None of that required 18-20 hour days at the office.

SteelCrazy
09-13-2012, 04:26 PM
Agree with all you said and that being said why aren't we adjusting to the changes in strategy and rules? I don't think our players aren't talented, if anything across the board they are more athletic than the players they have replaced.

I think a lot of it has to do with the reads our LB's have to make. Sometimes they have the option to rush the passer or play coverge (mostly OLB). However, its not a coin flip, they have to make reads and be correct in doing so. Being football smart goes a long way in LeBeau's D.

Sugar
09-13-2012, 05:44 PM
It could also be that he doesn't want to go back to the grind of coaching. He probably makes a 7 figure salary and has a pretty easy life. Why trade that for the life of a coach, which must be pretty rough?

Yeah, that's all true. Many times a fierce competitor will have a drive to compete no matter the obstacles. Perhaps Bill just got it all out of his system.

Steelerphile
09-13-2012, 05:48 PM
We definitely do not have any young talent blowing it up. Chris Carter did a decent job, but he doesnt look like a guy ready to blow it up. We wont know about Spence until next year. Adrian Robinson seems like he may be a very good pass rusher, but if he cant learn the other aspects of the D, we may never see him on the field. Our CB's are also looking very suspect. Lewis looked way behind in Denver. Even worse than Willie Gay. I hope we look better against the Jets

You single out Chris Carter to say he did a good job? You must be joshing. He was invisible. Worilds looked very good on the one sack that he made. I still think he has elite pass-rush abilities if only he could get healthy and stay on the field. But a bad wrist is a big problem for a football player. Hood has worked too hard in the off-season to not show something more this year. I will be surprised if the dline does not play better in the ensuing weeks. I'm ready to jump off the Timmons bandwagon. He plays like he is trying to not get hurt. He has to be more of a leader.

virgilbosetti
09-13-2012, 08:00 PM
Not trying to start an avalanche here but Cowher was a better leader IMO. His print was all over the defense, to his credit, and the offense probably to a fault.

steelz09
09-13-2012, 09:01 PM
You single out Chris Carter to say he did a good job? You must be joshing. He was invisible. Worilds looked very good on the one sack that he made. I still think he has elite pass-rush abilities if only he could get healthy and stay on the field. But a bad wrist is a big problem for a football player. Hood has worked too hard in the off-season to not show something more this year. I will be surprised if the dline does not play better in the ensuing weeks. I'm ready to jump off the Timmons bandwagon. He plays like he is trying to not get hurt. He has to be more of a leader.

As much as I'd hate to admit it, I watched a 37 y/o Ray Lewis play a better game Monday night than Timmons has ever had in his career.

steelz09
09-13-2012, 09:07 PM
When Larry Foote turns in your best defensive performance (though Troy also had an impact not seen on the stat sheet), you know there is an issue.

I think a lot of the problems start with the defensive line. Smith-Hampton=Kimo/Keisel were disruptive. They commanded the line of scrimmage. You either double teamed them or they destroyed plays.

Casey is not as explosive as he used to be, but still can at least hold his ground. I didn't see Ziggy or Heyward really step up and dominate in week 1, nor McClendon. If the defensive line is getting blown off the ball, the scheme doesn't matter. The results will not be good.

Kimo - 6th round pick
Aaron Smith - 4th round pick
Brett Keisel - 7th round pick

Ziggy - 1st round pick
Heyward - 1st round pick

See the problem? Where is the production in our 1st rounders on defense? Add Timmons to that list too. It's not like we aren't drafting defensive players in the 1st. We simply aren't seeing 1st round production from our 1st round picks. That's a MAJOR problem.

SteelCrazy
09-13-2012, 09:09 PM
Godell wants touchdown passers. He does not want JH pile driving QBs into the ground. If he wasn't held on every freaking play, he'd have 50 sacks.


Kimo - 6th round pick
Aaron Smith - 4th round pick
Brett Keisel - 7th round pick

Ziggy - 1st round pick
Heyward - 1st round pick

See the problem? Where is the production in our 1st rounders on defense? Add Timmons to that list too. It's not like we aren't draft defensive players in the 1st. We simply aren't seeing 1st round production from our players. That's a MAJOR problem.

Agree with that....It isnt the round, its having an eye for talent and apparently Cowher was the one with that eye.

stopplayn
09-14-2012, 01:35 AM
It was one game vs argueably the best quarterback in NFL history. I watched this D all preseason and they were breaking on the ball creating turnovers etc. Its hard to do that vs a Qb that decides where to throw the ball pre snap. Sanchez is no Manning. The defense will come up huge (NEW SCHOOL PLAYING A ROLE). Remember this post.

stopplayn
09-14-2012, 01:36 AM
Cowher didnt draft. IF he did we wouldnt have Ben Roethlisberger (he was totally against drafting Ben). A little Perspective

hawaiiansteel
09-14-2012, 02:20 AM
Cowher didnt draft. IF he did we wouldnt have Ben Roethlisberger (he was totally against drafting Ben). A little Perspective

that's correct, Cowher wanted to draft Shawn Andrews instead...

Oviedo
09-14-2012, 08:06 AM
Kimo - 6th round pick
Aaron Smith - 4th round pick
Brett Keisel - 7th round pick

Ziggy - 1st round pick
Heyward - 1st round pick

See the problem? Where is the production in our 1st rounders on defense? Add Timmons to that list too. It's not like we aren't drafting defensive players in the 1st. We simply aren't seeing 1st round production from our 1st round picks. That's a MAJOR problem.


The problem is what those first rounders are being asked to do. Hold up and impede the OL. Same thing that Smith and Kiesel were asked to do. If you want more from Hood and Heyward, play a defense that turns then loose and allows them to play an attacking style versus being a speedbump slowing down the OL. Put Hood and Heyward on the Giants DL and watch how they are making impacts every game.

The MAJOR problem is what LeBeau is having talented, athletic players do to fit his defense that he will never change.

phillyesq
09-14-2012, 08:45 AM
The problem is what those first rounders are being asked to do. Hold up and impede the OL. Same thing that Smith and Kiesel were asked to do. If you want more from Hood and Heyward, play a defense that turns then loose and allows them to play an attacking style versus being a speedbump slowing down the OL. Put Hood and Heyward on the Giants DL and watch how they are making impacts every game.

The MAJOR problem is what LeBeau is having talented, athletic players do to fit his defense that he will never change.

This is a fallacy. These guys are asked to do more than impede the offensive line. Aaron Smith was unblockable one-on-one. He wasn't asked to hold up blockers; he was asked to destroy plays. And if you didn't double team him, he did. Too often, Ziggy gets blown off the ball. The idea of "occupying blockers" is to play in such a manner that you can't be blocked or moved one-on-one. These guys aren't winning individual matchups, let alone commanding double teams.

RKSteel
09-14-2012, 11:00 AM
But that is how things are so what are other teams doing to adjust that we aren't? lamenting how things have changed won't help us win.
They have defensive cooridinaters that can adjust and gameplan for these passing offenses. ;)

RuthlessBurgher
09-14-2012, 12:28 PM
Agree with that....It isnt the round, its having an eye for talent and apparently Cowher was the one with that eye.

Tomlin hasn't had any Jamain Stephens/Troy Edwards first round total busts.

First round picks under Tomlin:
2012 24 David DeCastro G Stanford
2011 31 Cameron Heyward DE Ohio State
2010 18 Maurkice Pouncey C Florida
2009 32 Ziggy Hood DT Missouri
2008 23 Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois
2007 15 Lawrence Timmons LB Florida State

First round picks under Cowher:
2006 25 Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State
2005 30 Heath Miller TE Virginia
2004 11 Ben Roethlisberger QB Miami (Ohio)
2003 16 Troy Polamalu DB USC
2002 30 Kendall Simmons G Auburn
2001 19 Casey Hampton NT Texas
2000 8 Plaxico Burress WR Michigan State
1999 13 Troy Edwards WR Louisiana Tech
1998 26 Alan Faneca G Louisiana State
1997 24 Chad Scott CB Maryland
1996 29 Jamain Stephens T North Carolina A&T
1995 27 Mark Bruener TE Washington
1994 17 Charles Johnson WR Colorado
1993 23 Deon Figures CB Colorado
1992 11 Leon Searcy T Miami (Fla.)


I think Colbert's eye for first round talent (whether he is with Cowher or with Tomlin) is vastly superior to what Tom Donahoe did before him.

First round picks under Colbert:
2012 24 David DeCastro G Stanford
2011 31 Cameron Heyward DE Ohio State
2010 18 Maurkice Pouncey C Florida
2009 32 Ziggy Hood DT Missouri
2008 23 Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois
2007 15 Lawrence Timmons LB Florida State
2006 25 Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State
2005 30 Heath Miller TE Virginia
2004 11 Ben Roethlisberger QB Miami (Ohio)
2003 16 Troy Polamalu DB USC
2002 30 Kendall Simmons G Auburn
2001 19 Casey Hampton NT Texas
2000 8 Plaxico Burress WR Michigan State

First round picks under Donahoe:
1999 13 Troy Edwards WR Louisiana Tech
1998 26 Alan Faneca G Louisiana State
1997 24 Chad Scott CB Maryland
1996 29 Jamain Stephens T North Carolina A&T
1995 27 Mark Bruener TE Washington
1994 17 Charles Johnson WR Colorado
1993 23 Deon Figures CB Colorado
1992 11 Leon Searcy T Miami (Fla.)
1991 15 Huey Richardson LB Florida

Oviedo
09-14-2012, 12:38 PM
Tomlin hasn't had any Jamain Stephens/Troy Edwards first round total busts.

First round picks under Tomlin:
2012 24 David DeCastro G Stanford
2011 31 Cameron Heyward DE Ohio State
2010 18 Maurkice Pouncey C Florida
2009 32 Ziggy Hood DT Missouri
2008 23 Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois
2007 15 Lawrence Timmons LB Florida State

First round picks under Cowher:
2006 25 Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State
2005 30 Heath Miller TE Virginia
2004 11 Ben Roethlisberger QB Miami (Ohio)
2003 16 Troy Polamalu DB USC
2002 30 Kendall Simmons G Auburn
2001 19 Casey Hampton NT Texas
2000 8 Plaxico Burress WR Michigan State
1999 13 Troy Edwards WR Louisiana Tech
1998 26 Alan Faneca G Louisiana State
1997 24 Chad Scott CB Maryland
1996 29 Jamain Stephens T North Carolina A&T
1995 27 Mark Bruener TE Washington
1994 17 Charles Johnson WR Colorado
1993 23 Deon Figures CB Colorado
1992 11 Leon Searcy T Miami (Fla.)


I think Colbert's eye for first round talent (whether he is with Cowher or with Tomlin) is vastly superior to what Tom Donahoe did before him.

First round picks under Colbert:
2012 24 David DeCastro G Stanford
2011 31 Cameron Heyward DE Ohio State
2010 18 Maurkice Pouncey C Florida
2009 32 Ziggy Hood DT Missouri
2008 23 Rashard Mendenhall RB Illinois
2007 15 Lawrence Timmons LB Florida State
2006 25 Santonio Holmes WR Ohio State
2005 30 Heath Miller TE Virginia
2004 11 Ben Roethlisberger QB Miami (Ohio)
2003 16 Troy Polamalu DB USC
2002 30 Kendall Simmons G Auburn
2001 19 Casey Hampton NT Texas
2000 8 Plaxico Burress WR Michigan State

First round picks under Donahoe:
1999 13 Troy Edwards WR Louisiana Tech
1998 26 Alan Faneca G Louisiana State
1997 24 Chad Scott CB Maryland
1996 29 Jamain Stephens T North Carolina A&T
1995 27 Mark Bruener TE Washington
1994 17 Charles Johnson WR Colorado
1993 23 Deon Figures CB Colorado
1992 11 Leon Searcy T Miami (Fla.)
1991 15 Huey Richardson LB Florida

I also think on average Colbert was picking later in Round 1 than Donohoe. Five places in Round 1 can mean a lot with regards to the type of player you can get.

RuthlessBurgher
09-14-2012, 12:44 PM
I also think on average Colbert was picking later in Round 1 than Donohoe. Five places in Round 1 can mean a lot with regards to the type of player you can get.

Donahoe's best picks tended to be the ones later in the first (Faneca 26th, Bruener 27th...an obvious exception is Stephens 29th) as opposed to his embarrassing earlier bust picks like Edwards 13th and Richardson 15th.

steelz09
09-14-2012, 02:36 PM
The bottom line is our 1st round defensive talents named Timmons, Hood and Heyward aren't producing at a level we should be seeing. Everything else is just excuses.

steelz09
09-14-2012, 02:58 PM
DL
----
Hood - A 1st rounder, hasn't been able to replace the Cowher-era production from Aaron Smith (4th round)
McClendon - Hasn't been able to replace the Cowher-era production of Hampton. NT has been a neglected position for too long by Tomlin and Colbert.
Keisel - A Cowher-era product. Before that, it was another Cowher-era product in Kimo. Heyward, a 1st rounder, hasn't been able to replace these 2 cowher-era players.

Linebackers
------------
Woodley- Tomlin's 2nd round pick WAS able to replace a Cowher-era player such as Haggans
Foote - A Cowher-era player that was unseated initially by Timmons but brought back. He's still a Cowher guy.
Timmons - Initially unseated Foote (see above). Timmons hasn't been able to replace Farrior production from the Cowher-era. He's going to get outplayed by Foote which is sad.
Harrison - Another Cowher-era player that wasn't able to unseat Joey Porter for the majority of Porter's career.. Harrison was able to replace Porter's production but Tomlin gets no credit here because he didn't develop Harrison. He was already developed and ready to play by Tomlin's first year.

Secondary
---------
Polamalu - Cowher-era player... Obviously, no one is ready to unseat him and we have ZERO safety depth.
Clark - Cowher-era signing.... No one is ready to unseat him either.... Again, ZERO safety depth.
Ike - Cowher-era product who has been our best CB for the past several years.
Lewis - A Tomlin product that finally cracked the starting lineup. The other starter was McFadden (William Gay was a nickle back except for 1 year) for several years.... another Cowher-era product.

If that's not a trend, I don't know what is........ As the Cowher players age and are replaced, so is our defensive production.

Oviedo
09-14-2012, 03:19 PM
DL
----
Hood - A 1st rounder, hasn't been able to replace the Cowher-era production from Aaron Smith (4th round)
McClendon - Hasn't been able to replace the Cowher-era production of Hampton. NT has been a neglected position for too long by Tomlin and Colbert.
Keisel - A Cowher-era product. Before that, it was another Cowher-era product in Kimo. Heyward, a 1st rounder, hasn't been able to replace these 2 cowher-era players.

Linebackers
------------
Woodley- Tomlin's 2nd round pick WAS able to replace a Cowher-era player such as Haggans
Foote - A Cowher-era player that was unseated initially by Timmons but brought back. He's still a Cowher guy.
Timmons - Initially unseated Foote (see above). Timmons hasn't been able to replace Farrior production from the Cowher-era. He's going to get outplayed by Foote which is sad.
Harrison - Another Cowher-era player that wasn't able to unseat Joey Porter for the majority of Porter's career.. Harrison was able to replace Porter's production but Tomlin gets no credit here because he didn't develop Harrison. He was already developed and ready to play by Tomlin's first year.

Secondary
---------
Polamalu - Cowher-era player... Obviously, no one is ready to unseat him and we have ZERO safety depth.
Clark - Cowher-era signing.... No one is ready to unseat him either.... Again, ZERO safety depth.
Ike - Cowher-era product who has been our best CB for the past several years.
Lewis - A Tomlin product that finally cracked the starting lineup. The other starter was McFadden (William Gay was a nickle back except for 1 year) for several years.... another Cowher-era product.

If that's not a trend, I don't know what is........ As the Cowher players age and are replaced, so is our defensive production.

You make a really compelling case that the guy in charge of the defense isn't doing his job and developing players and should be fired.

hawaiiansteel
09-14-2012, 05:28 PM
Agree with that....It isnt the round, its having an eye for talent and apparently Cowher was the one with that eye.

it was Cowher who fell in love with Alonzo Jackson...

RuthlessBurgher
09-14-2012, 06:00 PM
Harrison - Another Cowher-era player that wasn't able to unseat Joey Porter for the majority of Porter's career.. Harrison was able to replace Porter's production but Tomlin gets no credit here because he didn't develop Harrison. He was already developed and ready to play by Tomlin's first year.

Harrison was a backup and a special teams player under Cowher. Cowher liked him so much he released him 3 times. It's understandable that a young Harrison wasn't starting at weakside OLB over Joey Porter in his prime, but Cowher continued to use Clark Freaking Haggans opposite of Porter for years while keeping Harrison on the bench. In 4 seasons under Cowher, Harrison had a total of 4 sacks. For comparison's sake, Jason Worilds (a pick that many people seem to hate because it wasn't Sean Lee), has 6 sacks in 2 seasons and 1 game so far. James Harrison didn't become JAMES DEEBO SILVERBACK HARRISON until Tomlin came to Pittsburgh...and had 54 sacks in the next 5 seasons (not to mention a defensive MVP award and one of the most remarkable defensive plays in Super Bowl history). Just because he came into the league under Cowher does not make him a Cowher player...he was essentially an afterthought under Cowher and a bona fide superstar under Tomlin.

steelz09
09-14-2012, 06:59 PM
Harrison was already developed by the time Tomlin showed up. All Tomlin did was send Joey packing to Miami and move Harrison into the starting lineup. That's tough ... especially when it was obvious Harrison was ready for a starting job. Tomlin was no way, shape or form responsible for the development of Harrison.

And Tomlin shouldn't have let Joey walk. He should have kept Joey and Harrison.

The time is coming to an end where Tomlin can piggy back on Cowher's defensive players... and boy is it showing.

SteelCrazy
09-14-2012, 08:25 PM
Harrison was already developed by the time Tomlin showed up. All Tomlin did was send Joey packing to Miami and move Harrison into the starting lineup. That's tough ... especially when it was obvious Harrison was ready for a starting job. Tomlin was no way, shape or form responsible for the development of Harrison.

And Tomlin shouldn't have let Joey walk. He should have kept Joey and Harrison.

The time is coming to an end where Tomlin can piggy back on Cowher's defensive players... and boy is it showing.

:Clap :Clap

SteelCrazy
09-14-2012, 08:37 PM
Just because Cowher didnt play Harrison doent mean he didnt develope him. He had the brains to pick him back up after cutting him. Clark Haggans is still in the league playing and starting for the 49ers, facing a suspension and is 35 years old. He is a good player, especially was when he was a Steeler.

stopplayn
09-14-2012, 08:41 PM
Harrison was already developed by the time Tomlin showed up. All Tomlin did was send Joey packing to Miami and move Harrison into the starting lineup. That's tough ... especially when it was obvious Harrison was ready for a starting job. Tomlin was no way, shape or form responsible for the development of Harrison.

And Tomlin shouldn't have let Joey walk. He should have kept Joey and Harrison.

The time is coming to an end where Tomlin can piggy back on Cowher's defensive players... and boy is it showing.

When the defense is #1 rated (and it will certainly shine this season) then Lebeau gets all of the credit. When the Defense has a off game then all the blame goes to Tomlin. When the Steelers win its due to our franchise quarterback but when we lose is due to Tomlin.

I understand

stopplayn
09-14-2012, 08:46 PM
Harrison was a backup and a special teams player under Cowher. Cowher liked him so much he released him 3 times. It's understandable that a young Harrison wasn't starting at weakside OLB over Joey Porter in his prime, but Cowher continued to use Clark Freaking Haggans opposite of Porter for years while keeping Harrison on the bench. In 4 seasons under Cowher, Harrison had a total of 4 sacks. For comparison's sake, Jason Worilds (a pick that many people seem to hate because it wasn't Sean Lee), has 6 sacks in 2 seasons and 1 game so far. James Harrison didn't become JAMES DEEBO SILVERBACK HARRISON until Tomlin came to Pittsburgh...and had 54 sacks in the next 5 seasons (not to mention a defensive MVP award and one of the most remarkable defensive plays in Super Bowl history). Just because he came into the league under Cowher does not make him a Cowher player...he was essentially an afterthought under Cowher and a bona fide superstar under Tomlin.

Now this is a sessssy post! +1000

SteelCrazy
09-14-2012, 09:16 PM
Now this is a sessssy post! +1000

It's wrong though.....

steelz09
09-14-2012, 09:27 PM
When the defense is #1 rated (and it will certainly shine this season) then Lebeau gets all of the credit. When the Defense has a off game then all the blame goes to Tomlin. When the Steelers win its due to our franchise quarterback but when we lose is due to Tomlin.

I understand

I'll include Lebeau in my criticism if it makes you feel better :)

steelz09
09-14-2012, 09:33 PM
Just because Cowher didnt play Harrison doent mean he didnt develope him. He had the brains to pick him back up after cutting him. Clark Haggans is still in the league playing and starting for the 49ers, facing a suspension and is 35 years old. He is a good player, especially was when he was a Steeler.

:Agree I remember watching Harrison fill-in for Haggans and thinking to myself, this could could be an impact player in the future. The same goes for him on special teams. He was a beast on ST and you knew he had serious potential in a fulltime role. It took time ( a lot of it ) for him to get to that point but you KNEW when he was at the verge. That was before Tomlin even showed up.

RuthlessBurgher
09-15-2012, 12:48 AM
It's wrong though.....

Would you rather be right or sessssy?

I'm sessssy and I know it...:p

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/3475003_o.gif

flippy
09-15-2012, 06:49 AM
It's really easy. Draft guys like Harrison, Troy, and Hampton at each position on D and have them dominate and stay healthy.

Slapstick
09-15-2012, 06:56 AM
Just because Cowher didnt play Harrison doent mean he didnt develope him.

That almost makes it worse...

Steelerphile
09-15-2012, 07:19 AM
Harrison was already developed by the time Tomlin showed up. All Tomlin did was send Joey packing to Miami and move Harrison into the starting lineup. That's tough ... especially when it was obvious Harrison was ready for a starting job. Tomlin was no way, shape or form responsible for the development of Harrison.

And Tomlin shouldn't have let Joey walk. He should have kept Joey and Harrison.

The time is coming to an end where Tomlin can piggy back on Cowher's defensive players... and boy is it showing.


Boy is it showing! You want Tomlin to fail so bad. Some people have been hoping for this from the day he was hired. But 6 years later and with the best coaching resume during that period, he is still sailing along quite well. So give it some time. I know the No. 1 ranked defense is meaningless to you. The winning records the playoff appearances, but let it play out some. The season is still young. The injuries have taken quite a toll, but they could still put something together. One game and you want to surrender.

stopplayn
09-15-2012, 12:59 PM
I'll include Lebeau in my criticism if it makes you feel better :)

There is hypocrisy in your agenda. You dont like Tomlin. So just say that. Dont make yourself look obvious when you give Cowher the Credit when Tomlin wins but Give Tomlin the blame when we lose. How does that work? Cowher/Lebeau get credit when we win so why exactly dont they deserve blame when we lose?

Oviedo
09-15-2012, 02:08 PM
There is hypocrisy in your agenda. You dont like Tomlin. So just say that. Dont make yourself look obvious when you give Cowher the Credit when Tomlin wins but Give Tomlin the blame when we lose. How does that work? Cowher/Lebeau get credit when we win so why exactly dont they deserve blame when we lose?

You are still new to the board. You will find out that if the defense falters it is the fault of "Tomlin's draft picks" but never the "Teflon Coach" LeBeau being out of touch or not developing players. On defense it is always some one else's fault

Strange that when we went to Cowher's first Super Bowl no one ever attributes that to Noll's players, who were developed by Noll and drafted by Noll. The reality is there is still a strong anti-Tomlin sentiment below the surface on this board for you can guess what reasons. As soon as the team has a couple bad seasons it will be out in full force but Tmlin has frustrated his critics by giving them little to complain about. Therefore they use the BS argument of Cowher's guys not his as the issue to criticize him with.

SteelCrazy
09-15-2012, 07:12 PM
Would you rather be right or sessssy?

I'm sessssy and I know it...:p

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs1/3475003_o.gif

Now you're right!

jj28west
09-15-2012, 11:23 PM
Sad but so true


Godell wants touchdown passers. He does not want JH pile driving QBs into the ground. If he wasn't held on every freaking play, he'd have 50 sacks.

stopplayn
09-17-2012, 09:24 AM
You are still new to the board. You will find out that if the defense falters it is the fault of "Tomlin's draft picks" but never the "Teflon Coach" LeBeau being out of touch or not developing players. On defense it is always some one else's fault

Strange that when we went to Cowher's first Super Bowl no one ever attributes that to Noll's players, who were developed by Noll and drafted by Noll. The reality is there is still a strong anti-Tomlin sentiment below the surface on this board for you can guess what reasons. As soon as the team has a couple bad seasons it will be out in full force but Tmlin has frustrated his critics by giving them little to complain about. Therefore they use the BS argument of Cowher's guys not his as the issue to criticize him with.

A great post. Thank you for the education

Slapstick
09-17-2012, 10:38 AM
Strange that when we went to Cowher's first Super Bowl no one ever attributes that to Noll's players, who were developed by Noll and drafted by Noll.

Also strange that no one ever attributes the Steelers' SB appearances since the 70s to the one common thread in all of them (including XXX)...Coach Dick LeBeau coordinating the defense...

steelfin
09-17-2012, 10:47 AM
Also strange that no one ever attributes the Steelers' SB appearances since the 70s to the one common thread in all of them (including XXX)...Coach Dick LeBeau coordinating the defense...

:D....I wonder why that is????

steelz09
09-17-2012, 10:51 AM
There is hypocrisy in your agenda. You dont like Tomlin. So just say that. Dont make yourself look obvious when you give Cowher the Credit when Tomlin wins but Give Tomlin the blame when we lose. How does that work? Cowher/Lebeau get credit when we win so why exactly dont they deserve blame when we lose?

Exactly what Agenda are you talking about? I simply listed our current starters on this defense and outlined which coaching era they were drafted from or developed from. It's a simple fact. I'm calling it as I see it without the Steelers goggles on.

By the contrary, Tomlin has been superior with drafting and developing offensive talent IMO. It's like we did a 180 on drafting. Yes, it could have to do with the rule changes but that's not the only reason....I'm also not saying that Lebeau isn't the problem. The reality is that Tomlin is the HC. So, if he isn't satisfied with Lebeau's development of young talent then he needs to resolve the issue. Or, he could ask Rooney to let Lebeau walk like he did with Arians.

Captain Lemming
09-17-2012, 12:53 PM
Exactly what Agenda are you talking about? I simply listed our current starters on this defense and outlined which coaching era they were drafted from or developed from. It's a simple fact. I'm calling it as I see it without the Steelers goggles on.

By the contrary, Tomlin has been superior with drafting and developing offensive talent IMO. It's like we did a 180 on drafting. Yes, it could have to do with the rule changes but that's not the only reason....I'm also not saying that Lebeau isn't the problem. The reality is that Tomlin is the HC. So, if he isn't satisfied with Lebeau's development of young talent then he needs to resolve the issue. Or, he could ask Rooney to let Lebeau walk like he did with Arians.

I find one difference in the D players drafted by BC versus Tomlin is that Tomlin spends high picks on DEs, something BC never did.
I like both coaches but it s my opinion that the nature of our defense does not require high draft picks at that position.
I wonder whether Tomlins background as a 4-3 guy plays into that tenancy.

I find it funny that people blame the loss of Aaron Smith for any defensive struggles. How about the aging and loss of our best tackler of the decade (Farrior), injuries and loss of the best tackling OLB in the league (Harrison), the loss of our top tackler of last season in BOTH Denver losses (Clark). Look at the difference made with just "ONE" of that trio back.

Those criticizing Tomlin need to remember BC had Harrison one the bench for YEARS while Clark HAGGINS was starting at one OLB position. YIKES!