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View Full Version : Why isn't there a no-huddle defense?



D Rock
09-11-2012, 10:06 AM
Obviously teams across the league, including the Steelers, struggle mightily to defend the no-huddle. Why is there not an answer for this?

If the problem is that you can't substitute out your big tired guys, then use smaller guys with more endurance. Create a no-huddle defense. If the offensive players can run around and battle it out and keep playing, then the defensive players should be able to as well.

ADAPT!

RuthlessBurgher
09-11-2012, 10:13 AM
If you go small, then the opponent will just cram the ball down your throats.

If you go big, then the opponent will start the no-huddle to keep the tired fatties on the field.

Oviedo
09-11-2012, 10:16 AM
If you go small, then the opponent will just cram the ball down your throats.

If you go big, then the opponent will start the no-huddle to keep the tired fatties on the field.


And if everyone tries to play no huddle you will have some making excuses for the defense that the offense isn't giving them time to rest.

That said, I hope we see much more of our no huddle because our WRs are extremely difficult to match up with. Put Dwyer in the backfield and we have sa real run/catch threat until Mendy comes back.

D Rock
09-11-2012, 10:23 AM
If you go small, then the opponent will just cram the ball down your throats.

If you go big, then the opponent will start the no-huddle to keep the tired fatties on the field.

It didn't seem like Peyton and the Broncos were hiding the fact that they were coming out with the no-huddle. I would have taken my chances.

Maybe you give up a couple more yards per run, but you also have a better chance of putting pressure on and getting sacks when they do throw.

Now that I think about it, the answer is already out there. The 4-3 Defense with DLinemen who can play the run well enough and also get pressure regardless of blitz calls.

Oviedo
09-11-2012, 10:30 AM
It didn't seem like Peyton and the Broncos were hiding the fact that they were coming out with the no-huddle. I would have taken my chances.

Maybe you give up a couple more yards per run, but you also have a better chance of putting pressure on and getting sacks when they do throw.

Now that I think about it, the answer is already out there. The 4-3 Defense with DLinemen who can play the run well enough and also get pressure regardless of blitz calls.

Yes the 4-3 can!!!!!!!

Slapstick
09-11-2012, 10:39 AM
It didn't seem like Peyton and the Broncos were hiding the fact that they were coming out with the no-huddle. I would have taken my chances.

Maybe you give up a couple more yards per run, but you also have a better chance of putting pressure on and getting sacks when they do throw.

Now that I think about it, the answer is already out there. The 4-3 Defense with DLinemen who can play the run well enough and also get pressure regardless of blitz calls.

Right! Peyton has never burned a 4-3 defense with the no-huddle!

Heck, neither has Ben!

4-3 is the cure all for all defensive woes!!!:rolleyes:

Oviedo
09-11-2012, 10:45 AM
Right! Peyton has never burned a 4-3 defense with the no-huddle!

Heck, neither has Ben!

4-3 is the cure all for all defensive woes!!!:rolleyes:

Not all, but maybe ours!!!!;)

D Rock
09-11-2012, 11:08 AM
Right! Peyton has never burned a 4-3 defense with the no-huddle!

Heck, neither has Ben!

4-3 is the cure all for all defensive woes!!!:rolleyes:


You don't think players like JPP and Jay Ratliff would fare better against a no huddle than a guy like Hampton or Ziggy would? Ignore that it's called the 4-3 and think about the players it uses.

Slapstick
09-11-2012, 11:31 AM
You don't think players like JPP and Jay Ratliff would fare better against a no huddle than a guy like Hampton or Ziggy would? Ignore that it's called the 4-3 and think about the players it uses.

Exactly...

Jay Ratliff is a 3-4 NT...you can put the players in any scheme and call it what you want...

D Rock
09-11-2012, 12:30 PM
Exactly...

Jay Ratliff is a 3-4 NT...you can put the players in any scheme and call it what you want...

Many will say Ratliff is a "4-3 DT" playing the role of a "3-4 NT". I think he's just a great football player. An athletic football player. A guy who can get after the QB and play the run.

If you put a premium on guys like that rather than guys that fit the role of LBs in a 3-4, I see a successful defense.

I've seen all the proof I'll ever need watching the Giants defense shut down the high powered Pats in two Super Bowls.

Slapstick
09-11-2012, 02:53 PM
Those Giants sure shut down the Cowboys though, didn't they?

D Rock
09-11-2012, 03:02 PM
Those Giants sure shut down the Cowboys though, didn't they?


I'll still stick with the evidence of two dominating Super Bowl wins over one bad regular season game.

Sugar
09-11-2012, 03:14 PM
I'll still stick with the evidence of two dominating Super Bowl wins over one bad regular season game.

Dominating? They barely won both times.

D Rock
09-11-2012, 03:40 PM
Dominating? They barely won both times.

When you shut down the Patriots in the Super Bowl, holding them to 14 and 17 points....yeah, that's a dominating performance.

skyhawk
09-11-2012, 07:05 PM
A no huddle defense? WTF?

Only the offense can control the play clock. Not possible. LOL

D Rock
09-11-2012, 07:16 PM
A no huddle defense? WTF?

Only the offense can control the play clock. Not possible. LOL

Who ever said anything about controlling the play clock? WTF?

skyhawk
09-11-2012, 07:25 PM
LOL. Sorry. But the thread title says NO HUDDLE defense. What are you meaning?

A no huddle offense does this so the D can't substitute players, or makes it hard to. How does a defense do this?

SDSteel1
09-11-2012, 07:27 PM
A no huddle defense? WTF?

Only the offense can control the play clock. Not possible. LOL

There are alot of defeses that don't huddle, the problem is our scheme and personnel make it so our fat boy needs a break when he gets stuck in during the no huddle O, and I really don't think anyone on our D is that well conditioned to begin with.

fezziwig
09-11-2012, 07:28 PM
Didn't Jim Kelly and the Bills have a no huddle offense ? As far as I remember it he, would torch our 3/4 but lose to the 4/3 defenses. All except the 95 season when we knocked him out of the game with a sack from Kenny Davis plus, we had Lloyd, Kevin Green, Rays Seals, Kirkland to name a few bad arses.

SDSteel1
09-11-2012, 07:33 PM
To defend no huddle you have to play man up and get either a decent rush or be able to cover your man for 3-4 seconds. We can't do either so it normally torches us, plus LeBeau plays 8-10 yards off.

skyhawk
09-11-2012, 07:33 PM
There are alot of defeses that don't huddle, the problem is our scheme and personnel make it so our fat boy needs a break when he gets stuck in during the no huddle O, and I really don't think anyone on our D is that well conditioned to begin with.

I agree with the conditioning for sure!! The past couple seasons the D couldn't get stops, especially late in the season. Now, it's the first game! But people always argue these are world class athletes and conditioning is not an issue. Horse piddle! It so is an issue with these guys. Not to mention they played at 5000 feet! Troy was at the oxygen trough early and often.

And that's why peeps run a no huddle against this D. To keep unintended steeler players on the field. Especially fat boy.

skyhawk
09-11-2012, 07:35 PM
Didn't Jim Kelly and the Bills have a no huddle offense ? As far as I remember it he, would torch our 3/4 but lose to the 4/3 defenses. All except the 95 season when we knocked him out of the game with a sack from Kenny Davis plus, we had Lloyd, Kevin Green, Rays Seals, Kirkland to name a few bad arses.

Not to mention a great defensive backfield in Woodson, Lake, and Perry. WOW!

Btw, who is Kenny Davis?

D Rock
09-11-2012, 07:36 PM
LOL. Sorry. But the thread title says NO HUDDLE defense. What are you meaning?

A no huddle offense does this so the D can't substitute players, or makes it hard to. How does a defense do this?

It's not about the D not huddling, it's about creating a D that can hang with an offense that doesn't huddle.

I can see an NFL where the no-huddle offense soon becomes the standard. Defenses are going to have to adjust somehow, and ending the reliance on big fat run stuffers for more athletic guys who are able to last an entire drive with out taking a break is going to be essential.

I just don't understand why an offense can maintain that pace and wear a defense out when the offense is playing at the same pace.

skyhawk
09-11-2012, 07:44 PM
It's not about the D not huddling, it's about creating a D that can hang with an offense that doesn't huddle.

I can see an NFL where the no-huddle offense soon becomes the standard. Defenses are going to have to adjust somehow, and ending the reliance on big fat run stuffers for more athletic guys who are able to last an entire drive with out taking a break is going to be essential.

I just don't understand why an offense can maintain that pace and wear a defense out when the offense is playing at the same pace.

ah, now I get ya! For sure that might be needed really soon. This is a passing league and unfortunately becoming alot like arena football. PUKE.

The Steelers kinda had a no huddle D when they could get good backups in there like Chris Hoke who could hang and wasn't a big fat-so. Well he has retired too and it's going to kill this D with all that's missing nowadays.

SDSteel1
09-11-2012, 08:04 PM
The real big problem for any team going against the no huddle is the offensive line is basically allowed to hold the defender, and the defensive backs aren't allowed to touch the receiver. Hence the defense is going to wear down faster chasing the sprinters and grappling in the trenches, while the offense can run a new receiver out and the olineman are basically staying in one place.

Discipline of Steel
09-11-2012, 08:07 PM
I think we got caught by the no huddle in our base D where the no huddle defense should be our nickle. In fact against certain teams or situations, the nickel should be our base defense.

skyhawk
09-11-2012, 08:12 PM
The real big problem for any team going against the no huddle is the offensive line is basically allowed to hold the defender, and the defensive backs aren't allowed to touch the receiver. Hence the defense is going to wear down faster chasing the sprinters and grappling in the trenches, while the offense can run a new receiver out and the olineman are basically staying in one place.

True, but why can't the Steelers put u points when they do it with Ben??

SDSteel1
09-11-2012, 08:19 PM
True, but why can't the Steelers put u points when they do it with Ben??
They do, but I don't think Arians/Tomlin trusted Ben enough to run it all the time, or they just didn't see the benefit. Plus your oline does have to be able to hold down the fort for 3-4 seconds.

skyhawk
09-11-2012, 08:54 PM
They do, but I don't think Arians/Tomlin trusted Ben enough to run it all the time, or they just didn't see the benefit. Plus your oline does have to be able to hold down the fort for 3-4 seconds.

Yes. I thought the Oline played very well in the 2nd half. Ben had all day a number of times.

steelz09
09-11-2012, 08:59 PM
We would rather draft "splash players" that make no splash.... or "flexible" players that are o.k. but not good at anything or..... or guys that can "run and hit" but can't fight off a block fast enough..

steelz09
09-11-2012, 09:01 PM
The real big problem for any team going against the no huddle is the offensive line is basically allowed to hold the defender, and the defensive backs aren't allowed to touch the receiver.

That's a cop out in this case. The Steelers D' got torched plain and simple.

SDSteel1
09-12-2012, 12:00 AM
That's a cop out in this case. The Steelers D' got torched plain and simple.

Not a cop out, just the way it is. Our D looked winded and we were missing Clark and Harrison. If the dline doesn't play as a unit and if Casey isn't in the middle they will be able to run and pass against our defense in the no huddle all day long.

feltdizz
09-12-2012, 10:39 AM
Casey Hampton should be the designated injury anytime we are getting torched by the no huddle....

Oviedo
09-12-2012, 11:15 AM
Not a cop out, just the way it is. Our D looked winded and we were missing Clark and Harrison. If the dline doesn't play as a unit and if Casey isn't in the middle they will be able to run and pass against our defense in the no huddle all day long.

In the no huddle Casy should never be in. You need a far more athletic player like McLendon.

SDSteel1
09-12-2012, 02:25 PM
In the no huddle Casy should never be in. You need a far more athletic player like McLendon.
Well if Casey isn't in, and the Dline doesn't play their assignments, seams open in our defense and we are unable to stop the run. Right now it looks like any team could run no huddle out of the shotgun, and just run it down our throats.

D Rock
09-12-2012, 03:02 PM
Well if Casey isn't in, and the Dline doesn't play their assignments, seams open in our defense and we are unable to stop the run. Right now it looks like any team could run no huddle out of the shotgun, and just run it down our throats.

I would love to see the team start training Hood, Heyward, and Keisel to be able to stay on the field and mirror what any offense is doing.



I think that a defense looking like this:

.........Heyward........Hood..........Keisel...... ...
Woodley.............Timmons................Harriso n
Lewis......Allen......Polamalu......Clark......Tay lor


would offer the most athletic 11 guys who could be the most versatile in holding down the front against multiple offensive fronts. You can bring Woodley or Harrison up if needed. Put Clark or Troy (or both) in the box and still have 4 DBs in coverage.

RuthlessBurgher
09-12-2012, 03:34 PM
Not to mention a great defensive backfield in Woodson, Lake, and Perry. WOW!

Btw, who is Kenny Davis?

I think he was referring to former DE Kenny Davidson (a 2nd round pick back in the early 90's).

SDSteel1
09-12-2012, 03:40 PM
I would love to see the team start training Hood, Heyward, and Keisel to be able to stay on the field and mirror what any offense is doing.



I think that a defense looking like this:

.........Heyward........Hood..........Keisel...... ...
Woodley.............Timmons................Harriso n
Lewis......Allen......Polamalu......Clark......Tay lor


would offer the most athletic 11 guys who could be the most versatile in holding down the front against multiple offensive fronts. You can bring Woodley or Harrison up if needed. Put Clark or Troy (or both) in the box and still have 4 DBs in coverage.
I think that is the next logical defensive progression that will allow the Steelers to shut down the no-huddle, but the corners are going to have to play an expert man to man, and someone is going to have to man up with a big TE. The dline aside from playing their gap assignments will also have to be able to get some sort of pressure. There will be some hybrid developed to shut it down, but until then the scores are going to elevate and we are going to have to win a few track meets.

It's basically the 3-3-5 that SDSU is trying to run now.

D Rock
09-12-2012, 04:25 PM
I think that is the next logical defensive progression that will allow the Steelers to shut down the no-huddle, but the corners are going to have to play an expert man to man, and someone is going to have to man up with a big TE. The dline aside from playing their gap assignments will also have to be able to get some sort of pressure. There will be some hybrid developed to shut it down, but until then the scores are going to elevate and we are going to have to win a few track meets.

It's basically the 3-3-5 that SDSU is trying to run now.

It would be great if some high school and college programs would start taking those undersized LBs with speed and teaching them all to cover well enough to be crazy bada** strong safeties to work in this system. By the time those guys get to the NFL they need to already be able to cover well enough to line up with these huge TEs.

I think that more than anything else is what is going to push offenses forward - the new breed of TEs.