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hawaiiansteel
07-09-2012, 11:55 PM
Jaws QB Countdown: Big Ben ranked No. 6

July, 9, 2012
By Jamison Hensley | ESPN.com

Lost in the Fourth of July holiday was the fact that ESPN's Ron Jaworski put the Steelers' Ben Roethlisberger at No. 6 in his rankings of the 30 best veteran quarterbacks in the NFL.

Here's what Jaworski had to say about Roethlisberger:

On ranking him No. 6: "Roethlisberger is the strongest quarterback in the NFL. He not only extends plays with movement out of the pocket, but also with his natural strength in the pocket. He's 'barn strong.'"

On what Roethlisberger doesn't get enough credit for: "His ability to make throws consistently from the pocket. I charted all 60 of his 20-plus yard completions in 2011. Only five came outside the pocket. In fact, time and time again he showed one of the most central attributes necessary to play at a high level in the NFL: the willingness to look down the gun barrel and deliver the football."

On what to expect from Roethlisberger: "I have seen a lot of growth from Roethlisberger in recent seasons. Once undisciplined and inconsistent in the pocket, he is now much improved. At No. 6 on my Big Board, Roethlisberger's on the cusp of becoming elite."

The quarterbacks ranked ahead of Roethlisberger are: Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers.

The other AFC North quarterbacks who made Jaworski's quarterback rankings were the Bengals' Andy Dalton (No. 19) and the Ravens' Joe Flacco (No. 9).

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth

Shawn
07-10-2012, 04:48 AM
On the cusp...pfft. Ben IS elite. Putting Eli ahead of Ben is a joke.

D Rock
07-10-2012, 06:31 AM
On the cusp...pfft. Ben IS elite. Putting Eli ahead of Ben is a joke.


Why?

2 Super Bowl victories? check
Dramatic SB victories - Eli wins 2 to 1
Passer rating goes to Ben, although Eli has been solid with about a 93 twice in the past 3 years
Career TDs to INTs: Ben 165-100, Eli 185-129, slight edge Ben


Early in their careers, yeah....Ben was by far the better QB. Over the last 4 years though I'd say it's basically a push or slightly leaning towards Eli.

I'm not hating on Ben at all, but Eli deserves credit for the QB he has become.

Oviedo
07-10-2012, 08:02 AM
On the cusp...pfft. Ben IS elite. Putting Eli ahead of Ben is a joke.

I agree that Eli is not better than Ben. Never has been. Peyton use to be but isn't anymore but he is the classic type of QB that Jaworski loves so he will always get bonus points.

Brady, Breeds and Rodgers are all better than Ben. But a big part of that is that they are in offenses optimized to take advantage of their strengths. Ben never was. We'll see going forward.

Slapstick
07-10-2012, 08:27 AM
I agree that Eli is not better than Ben. Never has been. Peyton use to be but isn't anymore but he is the classic type of QB that Jaworski loves so he will always get bonus points.

Brady, Breeds and Rodgers are all better than Ben. But a big part of that is that they are in offenses optimized to take advantage of their strengths. Ben never was. We'll see going forward.

Rodgers also optimized himself within the frame of his offense...

ramblinjim
07-10-2012, 08:40 AM
Those guys are all really good, I think you could make an argument on where you put any of those guys really. Peyton to me would be the bottom guy just because of age and injuries, he could very well throw for 5,000 yards this year, win the Super Bowl and prove me wrong. He just never seemed to win the big, close games like Eli does. Eli has impressed the heck out of me the last four years; beating Brady twice in the Super Bowl is no picnic.

NorthCoast
07-10-2012, 08:47 AM
Why?

2 Super Bowl victories? check
Dramatic SB victories - Eli wins 2 to 1
Passer rating goes to Ben, although Eli has been solid with about a 93 twice in the past 3 years
Career TDs to INTs: Ben 165-100, Eli 185-129, slight edge Ben


Early in their careers, yeah....Ben was by far the better QB. Over the last 4 years though I'd say it's basically a push or slightly leaning towards Eli.

I'm not hating on Ben at all, but Eli deserves credit for the QB he has become.

With their recent play being so close, I give the edge to Ben because he has done it at a high level almost from the start. Jaws has a beef with Ben because Ben often doesn't look good making plays the way the other QBs do, you know...your typical timing QB.

squidkid
07-10-2012, 09:07 AM
6th sounds about right. could maybe move up 1 spot or down a few

steelz09
07-10-2012, 09:42 AM
I bet Jaws is giving Eli the edge because he won the SB last year.

I would take Ben over Eli but I'm sure you'd get a lot of arguments on both sides.

With that being said, the statement about Ben being "on the cusp of becoming elite." is moronic. If Eli is elite then Ben is elite.

grotonsteel
07-10-2012, 10:06 AM
Putting Eli and Aaron Rodgers over Ben is a big joke.

Eli Manning has put awesome 17 and 21 points in SB. If Ben did that people here would be complaing about it. Ben including some Steelers fan say he wins because of Defense but what about Eli manning? Giants defense shows up during big games. What about Giants O-line? What about Giants RBs of B. Jacobs/Ward/Bradshaw? are they not better than what Steelers have?

aaron Rodgers is one and done with 31st ranked Defense. How many great season Aaron Rodgers had? 2? In the end he needs his defense too. I don't see anyone saying A-Rod wins because of Defense.

Jaws is a jerk of epic propertion.

feltdizz
07-10-2012, 10:41 AM
Disagree on the Aaron Rodgers knock... You could trade Ben and Eli but with Eli just coming off another dramatic SB win it makes sense...

The thing is Ben has all the tools to be the best in the game and hopefully he puts it together this year. Ben wins ugly though... and he gets knocked for it.

grotonsteel
07-10-2012, 11:31 AM
Disagree on the Aaron Rodgers knock... You could trade Ben and Eli but with Eli just coming off another dramatic SB win it makes sense...

The thing is Ben has all the tools to be the best in the game and hopefully he puts it together this year. Ben wins ugly though... and he gets knocked for it.

As i said before if Eli puts 17 points or 21 points he is an elite QB. Giants Defense got nothing to do with it.

Aaron Rodgers had amazing 2 seasons. I would not put A-Rod elite and ben on cusp of elite. Either put both of them elite or Jaws need to STFU.

D Rock
07-10-2012, 11:46 AM
As i said before if Eli puts 17 points or 21 points he is an elite QB. Giants Defense got nothing to do with it.

Aaron Rodgers had amazing 2 seasons. I would not put A-Rod elite and ben on cusp of elite. Either put both of them elite or Jaws need to STFU.

Rodgers has had 3 amazing seasons preceded by one excellent season. He's as elite as they come. No matter what anyone says about Ben doesn't change what Rodgers has done and the fact that he most certainly is elite.

At this point my rankings would be: Rodgers, Brees/Brady, Eli/Ben, Peyton/Stafford, Romo/Schaub/Rivers

I'd put the top 3 labeled as elite-elite, Eli and Ben as elite, Peyton and Stafford as 'on the cusp', and the last three as very good

RuthlessBurgher
07-10-2012, 01:43 PM
Putting Eli and Aaron Rodgers over Ben is a big joke.

Eli Manning has put awesome 17 and 21 points in SB. If Ben did that people here would be complaing about it. Ben including some Steelers fan say he wins because of Defense but what about Eli manning? Giants defense shows up during big games. What about Giants O-line? What about Giants RBs of B. Jacobs/Ward/Bradshaw? are they not better than what Steelers have?

aaron Rodgers is one and done with 31st ranked Defense. How many great season Aaron Rodgers had? 2? In the end he needs his defense too. I don't see anyone saying A-Rod wins because of Defense.

Jaws is a jerk of epic propertion.

Aaron Rodgers is a BEAST. His career TD-INT ratio of 132-38 dwarfs Ben's 165-100.

Dude followed up his Super Bowl winning season with an absolutely mind-blowing 343-502, 68.3%, 4643 yards, 9.2 YPA, 45 TD, 6 INT, 122.5 rating season. That rivals the best QB seasons in the history of the NFL.

And why is a one-and-done in last year's playoffs a mark against Rodgers but not a mark against Ben? The Pack did lose to the eventual champions after all, while the team that beat us got absolutely annihilated the following week.

Shoe
07-10-2012, 02:06 PM
Putting Eli and Aaron Rodgers over Ben is a big joke.

Eli Manning has put awesome 17 and 21 points in SB. If Ben did that people here would be complaing about it. Ben including some Steelers fan say he wins because of Defense but what about Eli manning? Giants defense shows up during big games. What about Giants O-line? What about Giants RBs of B. Jacobs/Ward/Bradshaw? are they not better than what Steelers have?

aaron Rodgers is one and done with 31st ranked Defense. How many great season Aaron Rodgers had? 2? In the end he needs his defense too. I don't see anyone saying A-Rod wins because of Defense.

Jaws is a jerk of epic propertion.

You're joking right? Please tell me you're joking. His td:int ratio last year was like 45:6 or something ridiculous like that. He had probably near 5,000 yards to boot. Add a super bowl, and similar couple seasons before that... Wtf more does he have to do to be elite in your eyes?

feltdizz
07-10-2012, 02:39 PM
You're joking right? Please tell me you're joking. His td:int ratio last year was like 45:6 or something ridiculous like that. He had probably near 5,000 yards to boot. Add a super bowl, and similar couple seasons before that... Wtf more does he have to do to be elite in your eyes?

he has to be #7 and play for the Steelers. LOL...

BURGH86STEEL
07-10-2012, 02:56 PM
I don't see the problem if people rank Ben slightly a head of Eli or if Eli is ranked slightly a head of Ben. It seems that Eli has shown more growth as a QB then Ben since they both came into the league. I thought Ben had a really high ceiling after his early success. Ben should be playing more like Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, and Brees at this point of his career. Those are the QB's I consider the best of the best. Ben's TD production should mimic those players. Ben's played as well as the best of the best. He's never played as well on a consistent enough basis as the best of the best. I've stated this many times, consistency and TD production is what keeps Ben out of the best of the best category. It also seems like the best of the best QB's have a larger role in their abilities to carry the team.

DukieBoy
07-10-2012, 03:23 PM
The talking heads and all their speculative "Elite" declarations nausate me. They have to invent this "Elite" label because they've overused labels like great and superstar.
Which of these other QB,s, put into Ben's situation with the O-line being what it has been these past few years, and under the direction of BA, would grade out as "Elite" ? Rodgers would. Most of the others would suffer under those circumstances. My $.02.

hawaiiansteel
07-10-2012, 03:35 PM
Which of these other QB,s, put into Ben's situation with the O-line being what it has been these past few years, and under the direction of BA, would grade out as "Elite" ?


you make a great point, our OL was below average and Bruce Arians' play calling has been a giant anchor around Ben's neck.

grotonsteel
07-10-2012, 07:02 PM
You're joking right? Please tell me you're joking. His td:int ratio last year was like 45:6 or something ridiculous like that. He had probably near 5,000 yards to boot. Add a super bowl, and similar couple seasons before that... Wtf more does he have to do to be elite in your eyes?

Hmm...did i say Aaron is not an elite QB?? All i am saying is i would put Ben ahead of A-Rod. Either put both of them in elite group or don't put anyone in there.

By your logic Stafford is elite in your book? He also threw for 5000 yards last season.

grotonsteel
07-10-2012, 07:03 PM
you make a great point, our OL was below average and Bruce Arians' play calling has been a giant anchor around Ben's neck.

I guess you did not get the memo. Ben made Steelers O-line look below average.

/sarcasm

hawaiiansteel
07-10-2012, 08:07 PM
I guess you did not get the memo. Ben made Steelers O-line look below average.

/sarcasm


that's right, it's because Ben holds onto the ball too long.

or is it because Art II wants to return to the glory days of the 70s and run on every play?

I'm all confused now...:D

AngryAsian
07-10-2012, 10:19 PM
I have to say that Eli's ability to show up for the BIG GAME is the determining factor. IMHO, Eli produced more on the biggest stage than Ben (SuperBowl MVP's garnished support that)... but the roads taken to get to the BIG GAMES, Ben gets the nods. I think we have a tie... Ben has been more consistent throughout his career despite never having to work behind a consistent line and also having less to work with (no disrespect to our skilled offensive positions). But Eli has this knack to show up for the biggest games. Its huge to go into Lambeau and outplay Aaron Rodgers. Just my SLANT on things.

fordfixer
07-10-2012, 10:23 PM
I'll still take Ben with 2 min. left in the game down by 6:tt1:tt1:tt1

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
07-11-2012, 12:33 AM
Regardless of whether we would put Ben ahead of Eli or not, it is not a ridiculous thought. So are the others ahead of him. I think that you could pretty much put all six of these guys in a hat and pick out the names and have a good shot at having a legit list.

Djfan
07-11-2012, 01:25 AM
"Elite", "Great", "Amazing", "Supersonic", "Super Confident Bob" - Whatever. Glad to have Ben over all of them. Or most any of them instead of Ben, and without BA.

It's interesting to see that Phillip Rivers is no longer in this discussion.

NJ-STEELER
07-11-2012, 02:07 AM
On the cusp...pfft. Ben IS elite. Putting Eli ahead of Ben is a joke.

over the weekend A jets fan i talked to agreed with this.

that said we both agreed that eli had a hell of a year last year, but he was just too damn erratic prior to that

NJ-STEELER
07-11-2012, 02:11 AM
you make a great point, our OL was below average and Bruce Arians' play calling has been a giant anchor around Ben's neck.

you wont find too many giant fans that love gilbride's play calling either. im guessing thats something most fans of teams complain about when their offense is struggling

D Rock
07-11-2012, 02:42 AM
Hmm...did i say Aaron is not an elite QB?? All i am saying is i would put Ben ahead of A-Rod. Either put both of them in elite group or don't put anyone in there.

By your logic Stafford is elite in your book? He also threw for 5000 yards last season.

Stafford is not far off if he isn't already there. Megatron or no Megatron, you don't put up 5000 yards and have a TD-INT ration of 41-16 without being incredibly good. Another season with about 4500 yards and 30+ TDs, while maybe dropping the INTs a bit, and he is right in there with the rest of them.

If he didn't play for the Lions and didn't spend his 1st two years being injured all the time, he would be getting a lot more respect. He was a 1st overall pick for a reason.

flippy
07-11-2012, 07:12 AM
I'm ok with Ben being #6. I'd still rather have him in just about any situation. He's bigger, tougher, keeps plays alive longer, has a strong arm and can make a play out of any situation because of it.

The only guy that should feel disrespected on this list is Tom Brady. I like that they didn't put him at #1. But at the same time, he really deserves to be there until Ben wins 2 more SuperBowls.

D Rock
07-11-2012, 07:55 AM
I'm ok with Ben being #6. I'd still rather have him in just about any situation. He's bigger, tougher, keeps plays alive longer, has a strong arm and can make a play out of any situation because of it.

The only guy that should feel disrespected on this list is Tom Brady. I like that they didn't put him at #1. But at the same time, he really deserves to be there until Ben wins 2 more SuperBowls.


Brady was a very Eli-level quarterback when he was winning Super Bowls. He has since become a stat machine and lost a couple Super Bowls.

That, to me, suggests that the Patriots winning wasn't because of how great Tom Brady is. I wonder what else it could have been?

feltdizz
07-11-2012, 09:37 AM
Brady was a very Eli-level quarterback when he was winning Super Bowls. He has since become a stat machine and lost a couple Super Bowls.

That, to me, suggests that the Patriots winning wasn't because of how great Tom Brady is. I wonder what else it could have been?

One has to wonder if it is the system with the Pats... Tom Brady is damn good but it seems like once he is hit he is easily rattled. This is one area where I think Eli and Ben have surpassed Brady.

Whether people want to admit it or not I've seen Eli and Ben take some huge hits and get right back up and throw a game changing pass. Brady has been pretty shaky in close games too... great stats but his game hasn't impressed me lately and part of it is because he is throwing to guys who IMO are sub par talents but the execution and X's and O's are head and shoulders above other teams.

RuthlessBurgher
07-11-2012, 10:18 AM
"Elite", "Great", "Amazing", "Supersonic", "Super Confident Bob" - Whatever. Glad to have Ben over all of them. Or most any of them instead of Ben, and without BA.

It's interesting to see that Phillip Rivers is no longer in this discussion.


Rivers is no Super Confident Bob. :p

DukieBoy
07-11-2012, 02:39 PM
Rivers is no Super Confident Bob. :p


He is, however, an Overly-Cocky Rick.

BURGH86STEEL
07-11-2012, 07:38 PM
Brady was a very Eli-level quarterback when he was winning Super Bowls. He has since become a stat machine and lost a couple Super Bowls.

That, to me, suggests that the Patriots winning wasn't because of how great Tom Brady is. I wonder what else it could have been?

I am not fan of the Pats but I think people need to accept the Pats are a great team. Anyone that believes the Pats were winning because of spy gate hasn't paid attention or probably has an anti Pats agenda. The Pats went on a historic run in 2007. They continued to win a lot of games post spy gate. The Pats had opportunities to win the SB's they loss. Sure handed Asante Samuel dropped a game sealing INT. Sure handed Welker dropped a key pass that he usually catches.

Brady's role grew as his ability to carry the team grew. For whatever reasons, the Pats haven't been able to build great defenses like they had with a young Brady. So now, the Pats rely on Brady's ability to carry the team. The Pats won a lot of games with different coaches and philosophies. The two constants are BB and Brady. We will see how well BB thrives when Brady retires. I have a feeling the Pats won't be as good without a great QB.

feltdizz
07-11-2012, 08:18 PM
The Pats will be good without Brady... they were good with Bledsoe...

Spygate wasn't about the Pats offense... Spygate was all about putting old, average defenders in a position to stop superior talent on offense.

After Spygate the Pats doubled down on beating teams into submission with short passes since they couldn't rely on their D to stop teams. I'm not knocking Brady or blBillicheat but a lot of their success is psychological. They put up 55 points on scrub teams and it puts fear in their next opponent.

But if you attack the Pats early or just change your game plan a little from what you normally do and you can have success against them

Brady is a good QB but if Ben put our FG kicker in a position to win some rings and put up crash stats well after the game is in hand he would be ranked 25th. LOL.

I know Brady is really good.. and I'm a hater... but I truly believe Brady played for the Bears or Steelers he wouldn't be praised. like this..being drafted in the 6th helps his legacy. I do love his passion and leadership and probably respect it more than his ability to throw the rock.

msp26505
07-11-2012, 10:03 PM
The only guy that should feel disrespected on this list is Tom Brady. I like that they didn't put him at #1. But at the same time, he really deserves to be there until Ben wins 2 more SuperBowls.

If Ben wins ONE more SB his record will be 3-1 in the big game. Brady is 3-2 right now.

Further, even if you go simply by current winning percentage, 2-1 (.667) is already better than 3-2 (.600).

Brady gets too much credit when you consider that he knew the defensive calls.

RuthlessBurgher
07-11-2012, 11:39 PM
Brady is a good QB but if Ben put our FG kicker in a position to win some rings

Unlike Vinatieri, Suisham would shank 'em.

Shoe
07-12-2012, 12:21 AM
Hmm...did i say Aaron is not an elite QB?? All i am saying is i would put Ben ahead of A-Rod. Either put both of them in elite group or don't put anyone in there.

By your logic Stafford is elite in your book? He also threw for 5000 yards last season.

Well, you did say it was "a big joke" that he was rated ahead of Ben. And in my book, stafford isn't elite. He has zero playoffs wins (where Rodgers has a super bowl), and Rodgers has done it over a good many years now.

I'm a pretty big believer in Ben. I wouldn't trade him for anybody... That being said, I have no issue with Rodgers rated higher than him.

grotonsteel
07-12-2012, 03:14 PM
Well, you did say it was "a big joke" that he was rated ahead of Ben. And in my book, stafford isn't elite. He has zero playoffs wins (where Rodgers has a super bowl), and Rodgers has done it over a good many years now.

I'm a pretty big believer in Ben. I wouldn't trade him for anybody... That being said, I have no issue with Rodgers rated higher than him.

I still believe putting Aaron Rodgers as No. 1 and saying Ben is on the cusp of elite is ridiculous. Aaron Rodgers playoff record is what 4-2? He is playing in NFL for 4 years now. He had a great run in playoffs for one season only. He sat behind HOF QB for 3 years and got to learn the position behind a great player. Putting A-Rod below Big ben does not make Rodgers non-elite.

By the time Rodgers ends his career he maybe the best QB, NFL has seen. He has a potential to easily surpass Dan Marino but for now i will rate him behind Ben.

RuthlessBurgher
07-12-2012, 03:43 PM
I still believe putting Aaron Rodgers as No. 1 and saying Ben is on the cusp of elite is ridiculous. Aaron Rodgers playoff record is what 4-2? He is playing in NFL for 4 years now. He had a great run in playoffs for one season only. He sat behind HOF QB for 3 years and got to learn the position behind a great player. Putting A-Rod below Big ben does not make Rodgers non-elite.

By the time Rodgers ends his career he maybe the best QB, NFL has seen. He has a potential to easily surpass Dan Marino but for now i will rate him behind Ben.

Rodgers' ratio of playoff wins/losses is exactly the same as Ben's (Aaron: 5-2, Ben: 10-4).

The main difference is that Rodgers throws 3.5 TD's for every INT, while Ben throws 1.6 TD's for every INT.

hawaiiansteel
07-20-2012, 04:41 PM
Packers’ website likes Aaron Rodgers’ chances to hit 6,000 yards

Posted by Michael David Smith on July 20, 2012

http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/a-rodgerswin.jpg?w=250

Before 2011, only two quarterbacks in NFL history had passed for 5,000 yards in a season. In 2011, three quarterbacks hit 5,000 yards. So how far are we from a 6,000-yard passing season?

Vic Ketchman of Packers.com thinks we’re not far at all, and that Green Bay quarterback Aaron Rodgers is a good bet to do it.

“I not only think it’s attainable, I think it’s predictable,” Ketchman writes. “Aaron Rodgers threw for 4,643 yards last season. Had he played in the finale against the Lions, he would’ve blown past the 5,000-yard mark. If the Packers play in more shootout type games, as the Lions game was, I think Rodgers would be a strong candidate to crack the 6,000-yard mark. He clearly can play that kind of game.”

A 6,000-yard season may happen in the NFL eventually, but I think 6,000 yards is a lot further away than Vic Ketchman seems to believe. First of all, it’s possible that 2011 was an outlier in terms of passing numbers, and not the start of a trend toward 5,000-yard seasons becoming commonplace. Maybe defenses were behind the game last year after the lockout, and maybe this year we’ll start to see some defensive adjustments that rein in some of the league’s best passers.

And even if last year’s passing numbers are the new normal, there’s still a lot of distance between Drew Brees’s new record of 5,476 yards and Rodgers (or anyone) reaching 6,000 yards. Asking a quarterback to produce a 10 percent increase on Brees’s spectacular season is a tall order. To reach 6,000 yards, a quarterback would need to average 375 yards a game. A 375-yard game is still relatively rare, and a quarterback averaging 375 yards a game, every game, for a 16-game season, is extremely difficult.

After Dan Marino set a record with 5,084 yards in 1984, it took 27 seasons for Brees to break that record. It could easily be another quarter century or more before anyone tops Brees’s record. A 6,000-yard season is probably a long way off.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/20/packers-website-likes-aaron-rodgers-chances-to-hit-6000-yards/

D Rock
07-20-2012, 06:51 PM
It's going to take an 18 game schedule for anyone to have a chance at putting up a 6,000 yard season