PDA

View Full Version : Which Steelers Player is Most UnderValued and OverValued?



flippy
07-02-2012, 10:06 AM
Which guys do you think we give too much credit and which not enough?

I'd say this team has 3 stars - Ben, Troy, and Harrison, so one of them has to be the most overrated. I'll go with Troy because for all the great plays he makes that no other player in the history of the game could make, he's a little weak in coverage.

Undervalued could be just about everyone else on the roster. I'll pick Larry Foote. Everyone wants to replace him, yet he still is a pretty good LB. He's smart. Always in place to make plays. Even though he's not the biggest or fastest guy on the field, he seems to make very few mental mistakes. And I sometimes wish every Steelers defender had his instincts.

Oviedo
07-02-2012, 10:15 AM
I think Harrison is a star in decline. I don't think we see him completely healthy again. His bullrush style was going to take a toll as many here pointed out a couple of years ago.

Over-rated:
Wallace-the Madden crowd loves his speed because it is gereat for highlights but not a complete WR
Foster and Legursky-their inability to open holes in the middle was part of our short yardage problems.

Under-rated:
Timmons-no matter how well he performs fault will be found. Most consistent performing LB we had last year. Will never get credit
Kiesel-Almost as good as Aaron Smith. Outstanding at getting pressure on the QB even though the scheme makes it hard.
Curtis Brown-the kid should have been on the field last year. Best cover corner we have. Will become a star.

DBR96A
07-03-2012, 08:05 AM
Overrated: Mike Wallace. This has nothing to do with his contract situation, and everything to do with the flaws in his game. Yes, he really does have flaws. I'm perfectly aware that he's very fast and can blow the lid off a defense, but are you aware that he's killed a few drives with critical drops, or that his route-running is still sloppy at times? He doesn't seem to be a very physical WR either, because he plays poorly in traffic, loses focus when the coverage is tight, doesn't muscle the ball away from defenders, and never jumps or puts his body on the line for a catch.

Underrated: Heath Miller. He rarely makes mistakes, and he seems to have the softest hands on the team. Not that anybody knows, though, because he's spent the last five years either having to stay back and block because the offensive line was terrible, or just being misused altogether. The good news is, if Todd Haley could make household names out of Leonard Pope and Tony Moeaki, then I can't wait to see what he can do with the most complete and underrated TE in the NFL. I look forward to great things from him in 2012.

D Rock
07-03-2012, 08:18 AM
Overrated: Mike Wallace. This has nothing to do with his contract situation, and everything to do with the flaws in his game. Yes, he really does have flaws. I'm perfectly aware that he's very fast and can blow the lid off a defense, but are you aware that he's killed a few drives with critical drops, or that his route-running is still sloppy at times? He doesn't seem to be a very physical WR either, because he plays poorly in traffic, loses focus when the coverage is tight, doesn't muscle the ball away from defenders, and never jumps or puts his body on the line for a catch.

Underrated: Heath Miller. He rarely makes mistakes, and he seems to have the softest hands on the team. Not that anybody knows, though, because he's spent the last five years either having to stay back and block because the offensive line was terrible, or just being misused altogether. The good news is, if Todd Haley could make household names out of Leonard Pope and Tony Moeaki, then I can't wait to see what he can do with the most complete and underrated TE in the NFL. I look forward to great things from him in 2012.

Unfortunately, Todd Haley never made household names out of Leonard Pope (best season: 23 catches, 238 yards, and 5 TDs) or Tony Moeaki (47 for 556 and 3 TDs). Heath Miller has had basically the same or better numbers every year of his career.

Leonard Pope is a known name because he is 6' 8" and Tony Moeaki is a known name because he did this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jLM_NDkJ5U

Oviedo
07-03-2012, 08:20 AM
Overrated: Mike Wallace. This has nothing to do with his contract situation, and everything to do with the flaws in his game. Yes, he really does have flaws. I'm perfectly aware that he's very fast and can blow the lid off a defense, but are you aware that he's killed a few drives with critical drops, or that his route-running is still sloppy at times? He doesn't seem to be a very physical WR either, because he plays poorly in traffic, loses focus when the coverage is tight, doesn't muscle the ball away from defenders, and never jumps or puts his body on the line for a catch.

Underrated: Heath Miller. He rarely makes mistakes, and he seems to have the softest hands on the team. Not that anybody knows, though, because he's spent the last five years either having to stay back and block because the offensive line was terrible, or just being misused altogether. The good news is, if Todd Haley could make household names out of Leonard Pope and Tony Moeaki, then I can't wait to see what he can do with the most complete and underrated TE in the NFL. I look forward to great things from him in 2012.

I'd agree with both your choices. Great reasons provided. My only concern about Miller is Haley may have come two years too late for him to really emerge as a star. Heath has alot of hard, physical miles on those tires.

SteelAddicted
07-03-2012, 09:06 AM
Underrated- Lawrence Timmons! he was asked to move around a lot last year and play out of position. I think he gets back to his 2010 numbers and makes the probowl.

Overrated- Rashard Mendenhall! he's average IMO and costs us yards by dancing around when he doesn't need to be. Nothing like a running back that turns his back into a tackle trying to "spin", lower your head and pick up some yards.

steeler_fan_in_t.o.
07-03-2012, 10:54 AM
The funny thing is that many of the same names should be put on this list - depending on the poster you are listening to. Based on general consensus though, I would say:

Over - Charlie Batch - Home guy who has stuck around to hold a clipboard but should have been out of this league three years ago. Nobody will say too much about him but the fact that he is still here and we aren't calling for his complete release makes him overrated.

Manny Sanders - Anyone who says that they feel comfortable without Wallace because we have Brown and Sanders waiting is truly delusional. He has 664 yards in two seasons and can't stay healthy. I like his potential but there is no way that I feel comfortable handing a starting job to him.

Mendenhall - I know that he has been stuck behind a suspect line for most of his career, but I have never seen him having what it takes to be a starting RB in this league.

Under - Hampton - I just don't think that his value to this consistently excellent D is truly appreciated. His kind may become extinct now anyway as the league moves towards the aerial game, but he has been the anchor for many years, eating up multiple blockers, and allowing our OLBs to pressure the QB, and out ILBs to come in clean on ball carriers.

Taylor - The only thing that kept this guy out of the conversation of "top 5" is the rocks that he has at the end of his arms. Talk about his coverage ability and all you will hear about is the 80 yarder he gave up against Thomas in Denver to end the season. In reality, this guy has blanketed almost every #1 WR in the league ever since Cowher once benched him (ironically, also after a Denver game). When Chad Johnson had his list of CBs who could not stop him, Ike did. He routinely holds top receivers around 50 yards in games, and without much extra help and all we remember is the dropped ints.

James Harrison - Yes, I know, and I know that he is on the decline, but hear me out. For the last three years or so, JH has been maybe the most complete 3-4 OLB I've ever seen. There are four things that you can look at from a 3-4 OLB - pass rush, coverage, run at him, run away from him. To put it into context, Ware was voted as the top OLB by the players. To me it seems that he only ever does one of these four things, and is in my opinion the most overrated non-QB in the league.

First off, how many times have you seen JH taking on two blockers on a run to his side and he takes on both and still makes the tackle either behind the line or close to the line? I'd say enough so that they stick out. I can't think of another LB who does it like that. He is also a beast who not only will make the play on runs up the middle, but will fly down the line to pull down a ball carrier across the field. And when he does reach that ball carrier, he hits him with all the ferocity that he can - ask Mr. Cribbs. By comparison, Ware is practically a non-factor against the run. He gets eaten up regularly by one blocker, and that blocker does not even have to be a lineman. If you look at tackling numbers, and take out 2011 for JH, Harrison had 378 tackles over the four year period from 2007 - 2010 since he became a starter. In the last four years, Ware has 265 tackles - but he does sack the QB a lot. Add to that the fact that Ware is almost always rushing the QB while JH drops into coverage way more often and you can easily see why the disparity in sack numbers. It is not his strength, but JH can contribute when he does fall into coverage (ask Kurt Warner) Ware is almost never asked to do so. My reasons why that although he was held in high esteem by Steeler faithful, JH is still underrated by the fans.

grotonsteel
07-03-2012, 11:02 AM
Interesting thought Flippy regarding Over-rated player as Troy. I think Troy is what Ben is to offense. Both are not your conventional players. Both take chances and when it works it looks great and if it fails they look bad. Troy is all over the place and sometimes he is way out of position in coverage because of that. I think Troy and Ben are once in a lifetime players and i enjoy watching them both play. They bring excitement to the game.

Over-Rated: D Johnson. Well Steelers FO has him over-rated.

Under-Rated: Mike Wallace and Lawrence Timmons.

Oviedo
07-03-2012, 11:54 AM
Interesting thought Flippy regarding Over-rated player as Troy. I think Troy is what Ben is to offense. Both are not your conventional players. Both take chances and when it works it looks great and if it fails they look bad. Troy is all over the place and sometimes he is way out of position in coverage because of that. I think Troy and Ben are once in a lifetime players and i enjoy watching them both play. They bring excitement to the game.

Over-Rated: D Johnson. Well Steelers FO has him over-rated.

Under-Rated: Mike Wallace and Lawrence Timmons.

D. Johnson is more than overrated. He is an embarassment to actually hold a roster spot. Hopefully with Arians gone that gets fixed.

Shoe
07-03-2012, 01:05 PM
Overrated: Mike Wallace. This has nothing to do with his contract situation, and everything to do with the flaws in his game. Yes, he really does have flaws. I'm perfectly aware that he's very fast and can blow the lid off a defense, but are you aware that he's killed a few drives with critical drops, or that his route-running is still sloppy at times? He doesn't seem to be a very physical WR either, because he plays poorly in traffic, loses focus when the coverage is tight, doesn't muscle the ball away from defenders, and never jumps or puts his body on the line for a catch.

Underrated: Heath Miller. He rarely makes mistakes, and he seems to have the softest hands on the team. Not that anybody knows, though, because he's spent the last five years either having to stay back and block because the offensive line was terrible, or just being misused altogether. The good news is, if Todd Haley could make household names out of Leonard Pope and Tony Moeaki, then I can't wait to see what he can do with the most complete and underrated TE in the NFL. I look forward to great things from him in 2012.

How is Heath Miller UNDERRATED? Watch any game, and whenever they talk about him, they say he is among the best at his position. Go on here, and Heath Miller is some tremendous unused quantity. It's ridiculous.

Listen, I like Heath too: He's a great guy, good presence, all-business, good player, good (not "great") hands, strong blocker, dependable... but he is in no way underrated.

Slapstick
07-03-2012, 01:09 PM
How is Heath Miller UNDERRATED? Watch any game, and whenever they talk about him, they say he is among the best at his position. Go on here, and Heath Miller is some tremendous unused quantity. It's ridiculous.

Listen, I like Heath too: He's a great guy, good presence, all-business, good player, good (not "great") hands, strong blocker, dependable... but he is in no way underrated.

The original topic was undervalued, not underrated...

Heath is not underrated, but he was undervalued in this offense in '10 and '11...

Oviedo
07-03-2012, 01:12 PM
The original topic was undervalued, not underrated...

Heath is not underrated, but he was undervalued in this offense in '10 and '11...

Completely agree. Arians biggest failure was not using the TEs like he promised he would when hired. Heath Miller should have 75+ catches every season that Ben is QB. Arians failed because he became too fixated in a vertical attack emphasizing deep, long to develop routes when he had a goldmine in Miller open and waiting.

Slapstick
07-03-2012, 01:21 PM
Completely agree. Arians biggest failure was not using the TEs like he promised he would when hired. Heath Miller should have 75+ catches every season that Ben is QB. Arians failed because he became too fixated in a vertical attack emphasizing deep, long to develop routes when he had a goldmine in Miller open and waiting.

Miller may not be a game-changing freak like Gronk, but he sure as hell would have helped in the red zone...

BURGH86STEEL
07-03-2012, 05:40 PM
Completely agree. Arians biggest failure was not using the TEs like he promised he would when hired. Heath Miller should have 75+ catches every season that Ben is QB. Arians failed because he became too fixated in a vertical attack emphasizing deep, long to develop routes when he had a goldmine in Miller open and waiting.

Health Miller isn't the type of TE that gets open enough to average 75+ catches per season. Miller is a good all around TE. He is no where near the receiving threat of some other TE's around the league. He doesn't posses the speed or athleticism to get open like several other TE's around the league.

Arians sent Heath and the other TE's out on pass patterns plenty. The WR's on this team were better options. As a result, Ben choose to throw the ball to the WR's. It doesn't matter how the OC designs plays for players to get open because the QB makes the decision where to throw the ball based on the defense. If you saw Miller open and waiting, how come Ben didn't throw him the ball?

I bet that Miller doesn't produce any more under Haley then he did under Whiz or Arians. That's because Miller's value isn't what some believe it is as a receiver. Miller's true value is the ability to play as a true TE and not as a WR playing TE.

Crash
07-03-2012, 05:46 PM
Unfortunately, Todd Haley never made household names out of Leonard Pope (best season: 23 catches, 238 yards, and 5 TDs) or Tony Moeaki (47 for 556 and 3 TDs). Heath Miller has had basically the same or better numbers every year of his career.

And whats hilarious is that Arians gets blamed for "not using Miller" while Haley gets "praised" for how he used Moeaki in 2010 in Kansas City.

Crash
07-03-2012, 05:50 PM
Completely agree. Arians biggest failure was not using the TEs like he promised he would when hired. Heath Miller should have 75+ catches every season that Ben is QB.

That will NEVER happen again if Coach Art continues to demand the running game.

Crash
07-03-2012, 05:54 PM
The original topic was undervalued, not underrated...

Heath is not underrated, but he was undervalued in this offense in '10 and '11...

The facts suggest otherwise.

steelz09
07-03-2012, 06:03 PM
overvalued = timmons

undervalued = Polamalu ... yup, because our defense is wayyy too dependent on him being in the game.

EDIT: Since Polamalu gets a lot of love, I'll switch my undervalued selection to Ryan Clark. Anytime your FS has more tackles than your ILB's, thats not a good sign. Additionally, he's been consistent over the years, smart, a good leader, allows Polamalu to roam, and not bad in coverage (lacks elite speed though). If Clark played against the Broncos, he basically guarantees us a victory.

steelz09
07-03-2012, 06:34 PM
Health Miller isn't the type of TE that gets open enough to average 75+ catches per season. Miller is a good all around TE. He is no where near the receiving threat of some other TE's around the league. He doesn't posses the speed or athleticism to get open like several other TE's around the league.

Arians sent Heath and the other TE's out on pass patterns plenty. The WR's on this team were better options. As a result, Ben choose to throw the ball to the WR's. It doesn't matter how the OC designs plays for players to get open because the QB makes the decision where to throw the ball based on the defense. If you saw Miller open and waiting, how come Ben didn't throw him the ball?

I bet that Miller doesn't produce any more under Haley then he did under Whiz or Arians. That's because Miller's value isn't what some believe it is as a receiver. Miller's true value is the ability to play as a true TE and not as a WR playing TE.

You don't need to be Gronk, Graham, Vernon Davis, etc to run in a 5-10 yard zone and turn around. That *should* have been Heath's territory when opposing defenses were sending blitzes up the middle and vacating that area. Instead, Heath was in a max-protect scheme. That was a defensive response instead of taking and exposing what the defense was giving us. Typical of Arians.

In response to "If you saw Miller open and waiting, how come Ben didn't throw him the ball?"... For the same reason Ben doesn't throw to wide open RBs. He tries to force the big play a lot... just like his buddy Arians.

BURGH86STEEL
07-03-2012, 07:52 PM
You don't need to be Gronk, Graham, Vernon Davis, etc to run in a 5-10 yard zone and turn around. That *should* have been Heath's territory when opposing defenses were sending blitzes up the middle and vacating that area. Instead, Heath was in a max-protect scheme. That was a defensive response instead of taking and exposing what the defense was giving us. Typical of Arians.

In response to "If you saw Miller open and waiting, how come Ben didn't throw him the ball?"... For the same reason Ben doesn't throw to wide open RBs. He tries to force the big play a lot... just like his buddy Arians.

Heath Miller ran plenty of routes in the 5-10 yard range. It was not as simple as Heath running into a 5 to 10 yard vacated area. There were times the needed to keep Heath in to block. It's really up to the QB to take what the defense gives. The QB's the guy that audibles and throws the football.

Although there were options for big plays at times designed in the offense, I don't believe the overall design of the offense was to force big plays. They took their shots down field. What OC and QB wouldn't with the speed on the outside? Offenses don't and can't live on 5 to 10 yard pass plays. I believe that big plays and threat of big plays are what allow offenses to have the most success.

Can't say that I saw Arians force a big play because I never witnessed him play QB.

steelz09
07-03-2012, 08:05 PM
Heath Miller ran plenty of routes in the 5-10 yard range. It was not as simple as Heath running into a 5 to 10 yard vacated area. There were times the needed to keep Heath in to block. It's really up to the QB to take what the defense gives. The QB's the guy that audibles and throws the football.

Although there were options for big plays at times designed in the offense, I don't believe the overall design of the offense was to force big plays. They took their shots down field. What OC and QB wouldn't with the speed on the outside? Offenses don't and can't live on 5 to 10 yard pass plays. I believe that big plays and threat of big plays are what allow offenses to have the most success.

Can't say that I saw Arians force a big play because I never witnessed him play QB.

Really? The OC called plenty of plays that took WAY too long to develop. WRs had routes that took 5+ seconds to develop when everyone knew damn well our QB would be sacked or have a guy in his face in less than 5 seconds. Maybe common sense isn't so common but that sounds like trying to force a big play to me.

NJ-STEELER
07-03-2012, 10:34 PM
overrated Timmons. 1 good year out of 5. outperformed every year by the 2nd round draft pick that year. took 2 years to even crack the starting line up.... yet still got a monster contract, i think a lot of fans give him the benefit of the doubt cause they dont want to even think about the thought of a 1st round bust (which i agree he is not)


underrated - wallace. some of the best numbers the league has ever seen from a WR in his first 3 years. coming from a 'raw' 3rd round draft pick, yet some want to pededle him off for an unproven late 1st round pick

tez allen. covered gronk when we played the pats and while he had 7 catches. none were deep and he made a pretty impressive tackle short of a first down when it appeared gronk would easily get it. I hope he wins the the spot opposite Ike

papillon
07-03-2012, 11:43 PM
Overrated: Any long snapper, I refuse to believe that the position is difficult to master that you have to take up a roster spot for player that sees the field for 8-10 plays per game.

Underrated: Ben Roethlisberger, yea he gets pub, but he gets a lot of negative pub (or at least no media outlet fawns over him like Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Newton, even RG III and he hasn't played a down yet) Without Ben the Steelers are still waiting on one for the thumb and they don't compete year in and year out to make the playoffs, many fans wion't know how good he is until he retires.

Runner ups:

Overrated: Suisham, no competition in camp (no real competition anyhow) for him at this moment, that makes him overrated.

Underrated: Ryan Clark, he just goes about his business and you don't' miss him until he isn't playing.

Pappy

Slapstick
07-04-2012, 04:58 PM
The facts suggest otherwise.

Facts:

2009 = 6 TDs for Heath

2010 = 2 TDs

2011 = 2 TDs

Steelerphile
07-04-2012, 06:29 PM
overrated Timmons. 1 good year out of 5. outperformed every year by the 2nd round draft pick that year. took 2 years to even crack the starting line up.... yet still got a monster contract, i think a lot of fans give him the benefit of the doubt cause they dont want to even think about the thought of a 1st round bust (which i agree he is not)


underrated - wallace. some of the best numbers the league has ever seen from a WR in his first 3 years. coming from a 'raw' 3rd round draft pick, yet some want to pededle him off for an unproven late 1st round pick

tez allen. covered gronk when we played the pats and while he had 7 catches. none were deep and he made a pretty impressive tackle short of a first down when it appeared gronk would easily get it. I hope he wins the the spot opposite Ike

There are some who will never be satisfied with Timmons, but let me try to spin his performance another direction. One good year of 5? Well at least you give him credit for 2010, which some people do not. He was 8th in the NFL in tackles that season. 3.0 sacks, which seems a little low, but the 7 tacklers above him had fewer. 11 passes defensed, which is very good for a LB. 2 picks that season, also good for a LB. He started out fast and seemed headed for the Pro Bowl but petered out a little. Still a very good season and he was 25 and that was what got him the good contract.

I might disagree that was his only good season, because I think he played well in a more reserve role in 2009, when he shared time with Foote. He had 7 sacks that year and 55 tackles. I think that was good season also, but just more in a reserve role. When you say it took him 2 years to crack the starting lineup, it implies it was due to him just being a poor player. But there are factors involved, he was a young player, drafted as a junior and needed to get a little stronger and he was also injured his first season, which took starting out of the equation and delayed his development. He also was not competing with free agents or other young players to start. He had Farrior and Foote ahead of him, who are both very good players, who the coaches couldn't summarily yank out when they were playing well.

I was not thrilled with Timmons play in 2011 myself, even though some might justify it by saying he was moving around positions on a week to week basis. I think that has some validity, but Timmons didn't adapt as well to moving around as I think he should have.

So the debate will continue to rage. I think he is many miles away from a bust. But I think some people do consider him to be. This is a key year for him because I think he should be situtated one place more so, and he should go back to at least his 2010 performance.

BURGH86STEEL
07-04-2012, 08:50 PM
Really? The OC called plenty of plays that took WAY too long to develop. WRs had routes that took 5+ seconds to develop when everyone knew damn well our QB would be sacked or have a guy in his face in less than 5 seconds. Maybe common sense isn't so common but that sounds like trying to force a big play to me.

Plays that took too long to develop is difficult to prove from where you sit. Could it be that you thought plays took to long to develop because Ben held the ball too long sometimes, the WR's didn't do their jobs by winning one on one with the DB, or that Ben had a defender in his face 2 seconds after the ball was snapped? Nah, it was only because BA called plays that took too long to develop, gotcha. The reality is that it was usually more then one factor.

NJ-STEELER
07-05-2012, 02:06 AM
There are some who will never be satisfied with Timmons, but let me try to spin his performance another direction. One good year of 5? Well at least you give him credit for 2010, which some people do not. He was 8th in the NFL in tackles that season. 3.0 sacks, which seems a little low, but the 7 tacklers above him had fewer. 11 passes defensed, which is very good for a LB. 2 picks that season, also good for a LB. He started out fast and seemed headed for the Pro Bowl but petered out a little. Still a very good season and he was 25 and that was what got him the good contract.

I might disagree that was his only good season, because I think he played well in a more reserve role in 2009, when he shared time with Foote. He had 7 sacks that year and 55 tackles. I think that was good season also, but just more in a reserve role. When you say it took him 2 years to crack the starting lineup, it implies it was due to him just being a poor player. But there are factors involved, he was a young player, drafted as a junior and needed to get a little stronger and he was also injured his first season, which took starting out of the equation and delayed his development. He also was not competing with free agents or other young players to start. He had Farrior and Foote ahead of him, who are both very good players, who the coaches couldn't summarily yank out when they were playing well.

I was not thrilled with Timmons play in 2011 myself, even though some might justify it by saying he was moving around positions on a week to week basis. I think that has some validity, but Timmons didn't adapt as well to moving around as I think he should have.

So the debate will continue to rage. I think he is many miles away from a bust. But I think some people do consider him to be. This is a key year for him because I think he should be situtated one place more so, and he should go back to at least his 2010 performance.

like mendy, he's far from a bust, but i feel he's not as productive as the FO wanted him to be.

after ben, he's the highest draft pick on the team and the highest we've had in years

Oviedo
07-05-2012, 07:32 AM
like mendy, he's far from a bust, but i feel he's not as productive as the FO wanted him to be.

after ben, he's the highest draft pick on the team and the highest we've had in years

Timmons is also constrained by playing ILB in a defensive scheme that does not allow him to fully utilize his best skills.

steelz09
07-05-2012, 10:03 AM
Plays that took too long to develop is difficult to prove from where you sit. Could it be that you thought plays took to long to develop because Ben held the ball too long sometimes, the WR's didn't do their jobs by winning one on one with the DB, or that Ben had a defender in his face 2 seconds after the ball was snapped? Nah, it was only because BA called plays that took too long to develop, gotcha. The reality is that it was usually more then one factor.

I've always disagreed w/ this of comment and I know you always try to make this argument. When I'm watching the game, I can see where a WR is running. To me, it's not very difficult regardless of watching the game on TV or in person. It might be hard for you, but it isn't for me. Consequently, I don't need to "prove" anything in this regard. I watched the long developing plays with my own 2 eyes.

steelz09
07-05-2012, 10:03 AM
Timmons is also constrained by playing ILB in a defensive scheme that does not allow him to fully utilize his best skills.

That may be true but then we shouldn't have drafted him in the first place.

steelz09
07-05-2012, 10:40 AM
Timmons is also constrained by playing ILB in a defensive scheme that does not allow him to fully utilize his best skills.


There are some who will never be satisfied with Timmons, but let me try to spin his performance another direction. One good year of 5? Well at least you give him credit for 2010, which some people do not. He was 8th in the NFL in tackles that season. 3.0 sacks, which seems a little low, but the 7 tacklers above him had fewer. 11 passes defensed, which is very good for a LB. 2 picks that season, also good for a LB. He started out fast and seemed headed for the Pro Bowl but petered out a little. Still a very good season and he was 25 and that was what got him the good contract.

I might disagree that was his only good season, because I think he played well in a more reserve role in 2009, when he shared time with Foote. He had 7 sacks that year and 55 tackles. I think that was good season also, but just more in a reserve role. When you say it took him 2 years to crack the starting lineup, it implies it was due to him just being a poor player. But there are factors involved, he was a young player, drafted as a junior and needed to get a little stronger and he was also injured his first season, which took starting out of the equation and delayed his development. He also was not competing with free agents or other young players to start. He had Farrior and Foote ahead of him, who are both very good players, who the coaches couldn't summarily yank out when they were playing well.

I was not thrilled with Timmons play in 2011 myself, even though some might justify it by saying he was moving around positions on a week to week basis. I think that has some validity, but Timmons didn't adapt as well to moving around as I think he should have.

So the debate will continue to rage. I think he is many miles away from a bust. But I think some people do consider him to be. This is a key year for him because I think he should be situtated one place more so, and he should go back to at least his 2010 performance.


There are some who will never be satisfied with Timmons, but let me try to spin his performance another direction. One good year of 5? Well at least you give him credit for 2010, which some people do not. He was 8th in the NFL in tackles that season. 3.0 sacks, which seems a little low, but the 7 tacklers above him had fewer. 11 passes defensed, which is very good for a LB. 2 picks that season, also good for a LB. He started out fast and seemed headed for the Pro Bowl but petered out a little. Still a very good season and he was 25 and that was what got him the good contract.

I might disagree that was his only good season, because I think he played well in a more reserve role in 2009, when he shared time with Foote. He had 7 sacks that year and 55 tackles. I think that was good season also, but just more in a reserve role. When you say it took him 2 years to crack the starting lineup, it implies it was due to him just being a poor player. But there are factors involved, he was a young player, drafted as a junior and needed to get a little stronger and he was also injured his first season, which took starting out of the equation and delayed his development. He also was not competing with free agents or other young players to start. He had Farrior and Foote ahead of him, who are both very good players, who the coaches couldn't summarily yank out when they were playing well.

I was not thrilled with Timmons play in 2011 myself, even though some might justify it by saying he was moving around positions on a week to week basis. I think that has some validity, but Timmons didn't adapt as well to moving around as I think he should have.

So the debate will continue to rage. I think he is many miles away from a bust. But I think some people do consider him to be. This is a key year for him because I think he should be situtated one place more so, and he should go back to at least his 2010 performance.

I don't want to get off topic on this but this is why I think Timmons is overvalued.

Tomlin drafted him to be an OLB and he is no good at it. Luckily, they were able to successfully move him to ILB. It took him too long to contribute being the high draft pick he was. Regardless of whether that was the coaches, the FO, or Timmons fault isn't the point. That doesn't give him or anyone a "free pass". The point is that he was making very good $$ and not contributing to that dollar amount. He was basically just learning a new position. By the time he finally started to contribute he was due for a new monster contract. So let me get this straight... you get paid good $$ for a team to groom you for your entire rookie contract and then ask for a monster contract once the grooming is complete? That's like a company paying me 1 million/year out of college to do "on the job training". Then, when I finally learn enough to do my job, I ask the company to pay me 2 million/year. I know this wouldn't happen but maybe he should have given some of his rookie contract $$ back since he didn't deserve all that money. Here is another point regarding my overvalued comment...

He's not a great blitzer. He gets sidestepped very easily by QBs. He doesn't boast the power to run straight through a RB's block and he can get chipped easily which throws him a bit off target on blitzes and doesn't recover fast enough.

He doesn't have great instincts for a ILB. Not even close to Farrior when Farrior was in his prime. He's fast after he diagnoses a play but it takes him too long to diagnose a play. Did he make a lot of tackles in 2010... sure. But, I don't care about tackles after a 3+ yard gain. I want a LB that can diagnose a play quickly, fight off a block quickly, and fill a gap. Timmons is not great in that aspect. He's gotten better... no question about it.

He's good in pass coverage but he's not what most crack him up to be. He had to gain weight (and it shows physically) to be a full time ILB. When he gained his weight, I think he lost some of his speed which isn't surprising. Regardless of what some people say, Timmons or just about any other ILB is going to be outmatched by Graham, Gronk, Vernon Davis, etc. People say we need more "Timmons" to handle these new breed of TEs. I completely disagree because Timmons can't cover those type of TEs on a consistent basis anyways. That will require more a safety or large CB (i.e. Cortez Allen), not Timmons.

Next up, splash plays. Where are these so called "splash plays"? He had a INT last year that fell right in his lap but that's far from a splash play. Maybe, just maybe Timmons will starting providing splash plays before he retires.

In summary, I list him as overvalued because he doesn't provide as much value as what he is being paid. He can't cover elite TEs with consistency (not surprising for a ILB), he's not a great blitzer, doesn't have great instincts, not great in run support, and doesn't supply any splash plays.

Is that his fault? I don't know. It's quite possible that it's Tomlin's or Colbert's fault. He simply might be a guy that is playing in a wrong system. He might have been an all-pro in a 4-3. ILB in a 3-4 is a very tough, instinctive position and Timmons got thrown that when he was already in the NFL. A lot of true 3-4 ILB were playing that since high school. However, all of this doesn't matter. The reality is that he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and he's in a 3-4 system. Regardless of whether it's his fault, the systems, the coaches, the FO, or whomever, it's my belief that he's overvalued on **this** team.

Oviedo
07-05-2012, 10:40 AM
That may be true but then we shouldn't have drafted him in the first place.

Obviously given the big contract he got last year Timmons has pleased the coaches and front office more than message board and media "experts."

IMO when Timmons was drafted Tomlin never expected that the team would still be running the 3-4. I think in his mind LeBeau would have left and he would yhad put in his defense. As you recall, all you heard when Timmons was drafted was references to how much he was like Derrick Brooks the best 4-3 OLB Tomlin was ever associated with.

grotonsteel
07-05-2012, 11:22 AM
P-Willis Splash plays
Sacks: 17.0
PDef: 40
INT: 5
TD: 2

Timmons Splash Plays:
Sacks: 17.0
PDef: 21
INT: 4
TD: 0

Willis had great years in 2008 and 2011. Infact i would say 49ers LB corp was the best in NFL last season. Timmons was not that great in 2011 buy maybe injuries to other LBers had a role to play.

Timmons is not a HOF LBer but he is a really good player. And looking at the players drafted after Timmons well only Beason and Ben grubbs are playing well. There are only 4 players who have played better than Timmons and all were drafted Top-15. Megatron, J Thomas, Revis and P-Willis.

steelz09
07-05-2012, 11:58 AM
Obviously given the big contract he got last year Timmons has pleased the coaches and front office more than message board and media "experts."

IMO when Timmons was drafted Tomlin never expected that the team would still be running the 3-4. I think in his mind LeBeau would have left and he would yhad put in his defense. As you recall, all you heard when Timmons was drafted was references to how much he was like Derrick Brooks the best 4-3 OLB Tomlin was ever associated with.

Yea.. well the FO has been wrong before and the message board experts have been right :) Examples include moving Colon to guard which we've been pleading for the last 2+ years. The coaches said, "he's not a guard, he's a RT". Fast forward to this year, they move him to guard. lol

steelz09
07-05-2012, 12:08 PM
P-Willis Splash plays
Sacks: 17.0
PDef: 40
INT: 5
TD: 2

Timmons Splash Plays:
Sacks: 17.0
PDef: 21
INT: 4
TD: 0

Willis had great years in 2008 and 2011. Infact i would say 49ers LB corp was the best in NFL last season. Timmons was not that great in 2011 buy maybe injuries to other LBers had a role to play.

Timmons is not a HOF LBer but he is a really good player. And looking at the players drafted after Timmons well only Beason and Ben grubbs are playing well. There are only 4 players who have played better than Timmons and all were drafted Top-15. Megatron, J Thomas, Revis and P-Willis.

Splash plays can't be measured on just stats alone. Big plays in big moments = splash plays. For example, getting an INT when the score is 27-3 with 30 seconds in the game is kind of irrelevant. I'm not saying they shouldn't be included though.

Also, splash plays IMO are bigger than stats alone. In the SB, against the Cardinals, Timmons had a splash play on the Harrison INT. He was right in Warners face and forced a bad throwing angle. That was obviously huge. Another splash play is stuffing a RB on a critical 3rd and 1 play. On the stat sheet it looks like 1 tackle but in reality its much more than that.

phillyesq
07-05-2012, 12:21 PM
I don't want to get off topic on this but this is why I think Timmons is overvalued.

Tomlin drafted him to be an OLB and he is no good at it. Luckily, they were able to successfully move him to ILB. It took him too long to contribute being the high draft pick he was. Regardless of whether that was the coaches, the FO, or Timmons fault isn't the point. That doesn't give him or anyone a "free pass". The point is that he was making very good $$ and not contributing to that dollar amount. He was basically just learning a new position. By the time he finally started to contribute he was due for a new monster contract. So let me get this straight... you get paid good $$ for a team to groom you for your entire rookie contract and then ask for a monster contract once the grooming is complete? That's like a company paying me 1 million/year out of college to do "on the job training". Then, when I finally learn enough to do my job, I ask the company to pay me 2 million/year. I know this wouldn't happen but maybe he should have given some of his rookie contract $$ back since he didn't deserve all that money. Here is another point regarding my overvalued comment...

He's not a great blitzer. He gets sidestepped very easily by QBs. He doesn't boast the power to run straight through a RB's block and he can get chipped easily which throws him a bit off target on blitzes and doesn't recover fast enough.

He doesn't have great instincts for a ILB. Not even close to Farrior when Farrior was in his prime. He's fast after he diagnoses a play but it takes him too long to diagnose a play. Did he make a lot of tackles in 2010... sure. But, I don't care about tackles after a 3+ yard gain. I want a LB that can diagnose a play quickly, fight off a block quickly, and fill a gap. Timmons is not great in that aspect. He's gotten better... no question about it.

He's good in pass coverage but he's not what most crack him up to be. He had to gain weight (and it shows physically) to be a full time ILB. When he gained his weight, I think he lost some of his speed which isn't surprising. Regardless of what some people say, Timmons or just about any other ILB is going to be outmatched by Graham, Gronk, Vernon Davis, etc. People say we need more "Timmons" to handle these new breed of TEs. I completely disagree because Timmons can't cover those type of TEs on a consistent basis anyways. That will require more a safety or large CB (i.e. Cortez Allen), not Timmons.

Next up, splash plays. Where are these so called "splash plays"? He had a INT last year that fell right in his lap but that's far from a splash play. Maybe, just maybe Timmons will starting providing splash plays before he retires.

In summary, I list him as overvalued because he doesn't provide as much value as what he is being paid. He can't cover elite TEs with consistency (not surprising for a ILB), he's not a great blitzer, doesn't have great instincts, not great in run support, and doesn't supply any splash plays.

Is that his fault? I don't know. It's quite possible that it's Tomlin's or Colbert's fault. He simply might be a guy that is playing in a wrong system. He might have been an all-pro in a 4-3. ILB in a 3-4 is a very tough, instinctive position and Timmons got thrown that when he was already in the NFL. A lot of true 3-4 ILB were playing that since high school. However, all of this doesn't matter. The reality is that he plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers and he's in a 3-4 system. Regardless of whether it's his fault, the systems, the coaches, the FO, or whomever, it's my belief that he's overvalued on **this** team.

Very well said.

I'm not sure that Timmons is overrated, but he certainly is the player that has most consistently failed to meet expectations. He was drafted 15th overall - in that range, you want an impact player, a game changer. You want the same thing from a guy given a $50 million deal. Timmons simply is not that player.

His best years where when we would play in passing downs as a nickel linebacker. With the weight he has added to play full time, he is nothing special in coverage.

If he returns to form this year, he can be an above average ILB. Even that, however, is a disappointment based on his draft status and salary.

Oviedo
07-05-2012, 01:07 PM
Splash plays can't be measured on just stats alone. Big plays in big moments = splash plays. For example, getting an INT when the score is 27-3 with 30 seconds in the game is kind of irrelevant. I'm not saying they shouldn't be included though.

Also, splash plays IMO are bigger than stats alone. In the SB, against the Cardinals, Timmons had a splash play on the Harrison INT. He was right in Warners face and forced a bad throwing angle. That was obviously huge. Another splash play is stuffing a RB on a critical 3rd and 1 play. On the stat sheet it looks like 1 tackle but in reality its much more than that.

Unfortunately, that may have been the last time that LeBeau turned him loose on an inside blitz. It seems to be a forgotten part of our defense.

Slapstick
07-05-2012, 01:27 PM
Unfortunately, that may have been the last time that LeBeau turned him loose on an inside blitz. It seems to be a forgotten part of our defense.

I would REALLY like to see Timmons at the Buck LB...

Put him in a position to consistently make plays instead of playing him out of position or 20 yards downfield in coverage...

Oviedo
07-05-2012, 01:44 PM
I would REALLY like to see Timmons at the Buck LB...

Put him in a position to consistently make plays instead of playing him out of position or 20 yards downfield in coverage...

Couldn't agree more. Perhaps when Butler is calling the shots.

Slapstick
07-05-2012, 02:15 PM
Couldn't agree more. Perhaps when Butler is calling the shots.

I think it has nothing to do with LeBeau or Butler at this point...

I think they'll move Timmons when they have a football player that they feel confident in taking over the Mack position...Spence, perhaps?

If Spence can play, I think you'll see it happen whether LeBeau retires or not...

feltdizz
07-05-2012, 03:48 PM
Stop moving Timmon's around for a year and see how he does...

Crash
07-05-2012, 03:52 PM
I would REALLY like to see Timmons at the Buck LB...

Put him in a position to consistently make plays instead of playing him out of position or 20 yards downfield in coverage...

Is there an echo?

Slapstick
07-05-2012, 04:10 PM
Is there an echo?

You have similar sentiments?

Even a blind squirrel...