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View Full Version : The 4th Quarter Defense Sucks (According to Certain Posters)...



Slapstick
06-27-2012, 12:42 PM
Discuss.....

feltdizz
06-27-2012, 12:54 PM
where is everybody? :mad:

Slapstick
06-27-2012, 01:06 PM
I don't get it...

This is the perfect forum to promote one's agenda without threadjacking...

Take advantage!!!

grotonsteel
06-27-2012, 01:36 PM
I don't know whether 4thQ Defense sucks or not but 3rd and long defense definitely sucks in all the Q.

Also i don't think Steelers defense can stop anyone when Steelers are leading by a FG with final minutes of 4thQ and a decent opponent QB. Maybe this is my perception but i don't have confidence in Steelers D to make a stop when needed to win the game. I have more confidence in Ben and Company than Steelers D during dying minutes of the game.

RuthlessBurgher
06-27-2012, 02:02 PM
In particular, it has been noted how Joe Flacco in particular owns LeBeau's defense in the 4th quarter. Well, Flacco has faced LeBeau twice in the playoffs. LeBeau's defense didn't exactly bend over for the almighty Unibrow in those two games where we eliminated our rivals en route to the Super Bowl. Let's review, shall we?

In the 2010 AFC Divisional Playoffs, we were down 21-7 at the half (and one of those TD's was the fumble return by Cory Redding that no one on offense even reacted to whatsoever), but LeBeau's D only allowed a single FG in the second half in a 31-24 victory. So much for awful 4th quarter play against Flacco when the season was on the line.

In the 2008 AFC Conference Championship, the last 3 Baltimore drives in the 4th quarter all ended in turnovers. First, Troy Polamalu intercepts a Flacco pass and returns it for a TD to increase our 16-14 lead to 23-14. Then, in the next drive, Flacco makes an ill-advised pass to a vulnerable Willis McGahee, who gets knocked out cold by Ryan Clark, resulting in a fumble that the Steelers recover. And finally, Tyrone Carter of all people picks off Flacco's final pass, leading to Ben in the victory formation, sending us to Tampa to face off against Arizona in SBXLIII. LeBeau's 4th quarter defense was truly awful in this game against Flacco as well, wouldn't you agree?

Slapstick
06-27-2012, 02:17 PM
Just another case of LeBeau's 4th Q D bending over for Flacco...

hawaiiansteel
06-27-2012, 03:02 PM
I don't get it...
This is the perfect forum to promote one's agenda without threadjacking...


and where's the fun in that? :D

feltdizz
06-27-2012, 03:52 PM
I don't know whether 4thQ Defense sucks or not but 3rd and long defense definitely sucks in all the Q.

Also i don't think Steelers defense can stop anyone when Steelers are leading by a FG with final minutes of 4thQ and a decent opponent QB. Maybe this is my perception but i don't have confidence in Steelers D to make a stop when needed to win the game. I have more confidence in Ben and Company than Steelers D during dying minutes of the game.

3rd and forever... I hate that down. I prefer 3rd and short.

Crash
06-27-2012, 05:36 PM
Terrific, Dick LeBeau's defense beat a rookie in the 4th in 2008. Since no true rookie has EVER won a Super Bowl, I guess LeBeau should be honored for it.

But since 2009? Flacco has three 4th quarter comebacks against LeBeau's defense, including one game where the much maligned BA rushing game had 38 carries for 153 yards and a TD.

And the defense STILL pissed away a 4th quarter lead in that game.

grotonsteel is right. If I had a choice between being UP 4 points and needing a stop, or being DOWN 4 points in needing a score to win a Super Bowl? I'm taking the offense.

History proves it.

All one has to do is WATCH.

Just remember boys and girls, if we lose to Denver in week one these will happen:

1. Peyton's offense will score on their first series.

2. Peyton's offense will score following a STEELERS touchdown.

3. If the games close in the 4th? The defense will give up the lead, even if the Steelers offense would score to take the lead beforehand.

Print this, and wait.

Then you'll see what happens on the field.

hawaiiansteel
06-27-2012, 05:49 PM
grotonsteel is right. If I had a choice between being UP 4 points and needing a stop, or being DOWN 4 points in needing a score to win a Super Bowl? I'm taking the offense.

History proves it.



you mean kind of like against the Packers in the Super Bowl?

Crash
06-27-2012, 05:50 PM
you mean kind of like against the Packers in the Super Bowl?

And Super Bowl XLIII?

You miss that game?

feltdizz
06-27-2012, 06:40 PM
And Super Bowl XLIII?

You miss that game?

Our last offensive drive in Denver?

birtikidis
06-27-2012, 06:47 PM
And Super Bowl XLIII?

You miss that game?
Which reminds me... Without that defense we lose to the cardinals in the super bowl.

Crash
06-27-2012, 06:50 PM
Our last offensive drive in Denver?

Yep. How dare Ben and the offense not bail LeBeau out again after giving up 20 points to the worst passing QB in football.

LeBeau is overrated. If our offense doesn't hold the ball all day, the defense struggles. They give up too many scores following our own scores, and the 4th quarter scheme sucks.

Always has, always will.

Just the way it is.

DukieBoy
06-27-2012, 06:50 PM
Pylons have destroyed our defense. We have fallen short of purfekshun.;)

Crash
06-27-2012, 07:01 PM
Which reminds me... Without that defense we lose to the cardinals in the super bowl.

The defense in XLIII was the only reason the Cards hung around. The defense couldn't get off the field and the Steelers had the ball a mere 5 times in 45 minutes, and scored on three of them. The Steelers offense started that game scoring 10 points on two drives, and were only up three points after those because the Steelers defense was obviously tired after one series of work and gave up a TD to stop a potential rout from happening.

Then in the 4th up 20-7 BA did what Yinzers want:

Run run pass punt, and play defense like they did in the 1970s.

And again, LeBeau's prevent gave up a TD to start their 4th and put the Cards right back in the game.

SteelCrazy
06-27-2012, 07:56 PM
Our D doesnt get any help from the O. When is the last time the O put a 4th quarter lead of 14 or more points and the D let the other team win? The 4th is always so close that the D cant play relaxed. Never does our O put up a big lead...and if they have, the D did not faulter.

Crash
06-27-2012, 08:14 PM
Congratulations. They can win games with 14 point leads.

birtikidis
06-27-2012, 09:23 PM
In a league that so heavily favors the offense, how we can't score more points is beyond me.
and crash, if James doesn't score on a 100 yd int return we lose that game.
an average number of possessions in a football game (in the nfl) is 13. 5 in a half isn't out of the ordinary.
Pone of those drives the offense had in the second quarter was a two play drive ending with an interception at the pit 35. Good thing our defense returned the favor.
Only scoring 10 points in the second half isn't good. Especially when you give up a safety.
4th quarter 3 and out... Punt on 4th and 20.
Again. 4th quarter. 3 and out punt on 4th and 6
3rd quarter, 1st and goal from the 4 and come out with 3 points.... Pathetic.
5 possessions (not counting victory formation). Steelers offense score 10 points and gives up 2. Good job O

NorthCoast
06-27-2012, 10:08 PM
I suppose some people will only believe what they chose to believe.

Since the Ben era began in 2004 the scoring offense has been in the top 10 in the league exactly twice.

In that same time period the scoring defense has been out of the top 10 exactly twice.

So tell me again exactly who is not getting the job done?

hawaiiansteel
06-28-2012, 12:37 AM
And Super Bowl XLIII?

You miss that game?


oh, you mean the game where James Harrison and the defense score on a 100-yard interception return to give the Steelers a 17-7 halftime lead?

no, I saw it. the defense scored as many TDs in the first half of that game as the offense did.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0902/nfl.james.harrison.run/images/1.jamesHarrison.9.jpg

Flasteel
06-28-2012, 11:06 AM
All of this finger-pointing at the offense and defense is simplistic and off the mark. Both units have their strengths and weaknesses and they are not mutually exclusive.

Of the two, the defense is the only one which can claim to be elite. You would have to be a serious Steeler Hater to disagree with the defense earning that tag...it's pretty much a universal assessment. You would have to be completely blind however, to see that there have been serious problems when our defense is pressed by the pass. Whether it's 3rd and long or the 4th quarter, any good quarterback seems to be able to shred us. I think the vast majority of Steeler fans recognize this problem. Last year, it was compounded with getting few turnovers and sacks-which was something of an aberration.

The offense on the other hand, could only be considered elite if it were being rated on potential. By no metric does this offense dominate the opponent and I think most fans would agree it has under-performed as a unit. That said, Ben Roethlisberger is a magician in the clutch. More often than not, if the game is on the line he will find a way to get the job done. The problems with the offense primarily involved the play-calling, short-yardage running game, and protection for Big Ben. These have been consistent themes for several years, just as the 4th quarter collapses have been for the defense...although not nearly as long.:D

I think it would be hard for any informed and RATIONAL observer to mount a strong argument against the above assessments. Yeah, I'm sure there would be some statistic to dig up that might paint a different picture and I'm certain there are other positives and negatives to debate, but I challenge anyone to seriously debunk those views.

The exciting part to me is what we have done to address each of those problem areas.

On defense, we have re-stocked our defensive line with young talent, to help keep our linebackers clean. Last year, that linebacking crew was crippled by the loss of Harrison and Woodley for wxtended periods of time. It was the ultimate reason for the lack of sacks and turnovers. The biggest adjustment to the pressing passing problem however, is the ability (and willingness) to play more press-man coverage. We have 4 corners, who can play both zone and man coverage without giving anything up. I 100% believe that LeBeau has assembled this group to adjust to man coverage when needed. The LeBeau cushion on 3rd down and 10 is a thing of the past.

On offense, it's a smorgasbord of change and it all starts with replacing BA as the OC. He wasn't the worst offensive coordinator we've had in Pittsburgh, but there is no doubt in my mind that he had been the primary problem since 2007. Todd Haley can't help but do better. The 1B problem on offense has been the caliber of talent in the trenches. We started finally addressing it with Pouncey, but the additions of Gilbert last year, DeCastro & Adams this year, and the move of Colon to guard have turned the O-line into a source of excitement for the first time in nearly a decade.

I love what we have done on both sides of the ball to address some of the most glaring and persistent problems. I'm excited to see how all of these changes pan out and I'm for some reason supremely confident they will. It makes it all the more absurd for me to continue watching all of this finger-pointing back and forth-like you have to take one side or the other.

Please.

Jooser
06-28-2012, 12:07 PM
Nice post Flasteel. Great assessments of both sides of the ball. No hating either. Good job!

Crash
06-28-2012, 12:17 PM
an average number of possessions in a football game (in the nfl) is 13. 5 in a half isn't out of the ordinary.

It was five AFTER 45 minutes.

Not a half.


4th quarter 3 and out... Punt on 4th and 20.

Yep, run run pass punt. Just like people want, run the ball and play defense.

What happened? The Cards went right down the field.

Crash
06-28-2012, 12:21 PM
no, I saw it. the defense scored as many TDs in the first half of that game as the offense did.

And a big reason why? Is exactly what I say dooms this team.

First series we pass we run, we get 1st and goal. Then what?

First down and goal? Run.

2nd down and goal? Run.

3rd down and goal? Pass/run option.

FG.

Second series we go down the field and get a TD, it's 10-0 Steelers and the makings of a rout is in order.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT......as they often tend to do after the Steelers score a TD, the defense went back on the field because the offense couldn't hold the ball for 15 minutes plus and protect them, the defense gave a long TD drive themselves.

So it's only a 10-7 game at that point even though the offense was pretty dominant at that point in the game.

Crash
06-28-2012, 12:25 PM
I suppose some people will only believe what they chose to believe.

Since the Ben era began in 2004 the scoring offense has been in the top 10 in the league exactly twice.

In that same time period the scoring defense has been out of the top 10 exactly twice.

So tell me again exactly who is not getting the job done?

And when the Steleers are running the ball and not even trying to score but to milk clock? That hurts their scoring, but it also helps the defense because they aren't on the field.

ikestops85
06-28-2012, 12:52 PM
All of this finger-pointing at the offense and defense is simplistic and off the mark. Both units have their strengths and weaknesses and they are not mutually exclusive.

Of the two, the defense is the only one which can claim to be elite. You would have to be a serious Steeler Hater to disagree with the defense earning that tag...it's pretty much a universal assessment. You would have to be completely blind however, to see that there have been serious problems when our defense is pressed by the pass. Whether it's 3rd and long or the 4th quarter, any good quarterback seems to be able to shred us. I think the vast majority of Steeler fans recognize this problem. Last year, it was compounded with getting few turnovers and sacks-which was something of an aberration.

The offense on the other hand, could only be considered elite if it were being rated on potential. By no metric does this offense dominate the opponent and I think most fans would agree it has under-performed as a unit. That said, Ben Roethlisberger is a magician in the clutch. More often than not, if the game is on the line he will find a way to get the job done. The problems with the offense primarily involved the play-calling, short-yardage running game, and protection for Big Ben. These have been consistent themes for several years, just as the 4th quarter collapses have been for the defense...although not nearly as long.:D

I think it would be hard for any informed and RATIONAL observer to mount a strong argument against the above assessments. Yeah, I'm sure there would be some statistic to dig up that might paint a different picture and I'm certain there are other positives and negatives to debate, but I challenge anyone to seriously debunk those views.

The exciting part to me is what we have done to address each of those problem areas.

On defense, we have re-stocked our defensive line with young talent, to help keep our linebackers clean. Last year, that linebacking crew was crippled by the loss of Harrison and Woodley for wxtended periods of time. It was the ultimate reason for the lack of sacks and turnovers. The biggest adjustment to the pressing passing problem however, is the ability (and willingness) to play more press-man coverage. We have 4 corners, who can play both zone and man coverage without giving anything up. I 100% believe that LeBeau has assembled this group to adjust to man coverage when needed. The LeBeau cushion on 3rd down and 10 is a thing of the past.

On offense, it's a smorgasbord of change and it all starts with replacing BA as the OC. He wasn't the worst offensive coordinator we've had in Pittsburgh, but there is no doubt in my mind that he had been the primary problem since 2007. Todd Haley can't help but do better. The 1B problem on offense has been the caliber of talent in the trenches. We started finally addressing it with Pouncey, but the additions of Gilbert last year, DeCastro & Adams this year, and the move of Colon to guard have turned the O-line into a source of excitement for the first time in nearly a decade.

I love what we have done on both sides of the ball to address some of the most glaring and persistent problems. I'm excited to see how all of these changes pan out and I'm for some reason supremely confident they will. It makes it all the more absurd for me to continue watching all of this finger-pointing back and forth-like you have to take one side or the other.

Please.

Why are you bringing logic into this discussion? :D

Excellent post about both sides of the ball.

birtikidis
06-28-2012, 08:36 PM
It was five AFTER 45 minutes.

Not a half.



Yep, run run pass punt. Just like people want, run the ball and play defense.

What happened? The Cards went right down the field. [/COLOR]
Technically crash we had the ball six times in just the second half. Half not 45 minutes. 5 if you don't count the kneel down
7 in the last 45 minutes if you don't count the kneel down or the int return
first 45 minutes? 5 times if you don't count the int return. And in the first 45 minutes? Offense scores 13 defense scores 7.

Crash
06-28-2012, 09:15 PM
A defensive score isn't an offensive posession. And certainly you aren't counting a 1 play kneel down after we win the Super Bowl? Correct?

birtikidis
06-28-2012, 09:49 PM
A defensive score isn't an offensive posession. And certainly you aren't counting a 1 play kneel down after we win the Super Bowl? Correct?
7 in final 45 minutes

Crash
06-28-2012, 09:57 PM
It was 5 after 45 minutes.

FG

TD

punt

INT

FG
________________________

Then it was

Punt

Punt

Safety

TD

birtikidis
06-28-2012, 10:10 PM
Oh crash you're helpless.

Crash
06-28-2012, 10:40 PM
15:00 1 05:15 PIT 28 9 71 Field Goal

06:13 1 07:12 PIT 31 11 69 Touchdown

08:34 2 04:18 PIT 22 5 12 Punt

02:46 2 00:37 PIT 16 1 6 Intercepted Pass

10:50 3 08:39 PIT 18 16 79 Field Goal

13:41 4 02:11 PIT 43 3 -5 Punt

07:33 4 02:05 PIT 24 3 4 Punt

03:26 4 00:28 PIT 1 2 -1 Safety

02:37 4 02:02 PIT 22 8 78 Touchdown

What's the problem?

bostonsteeler
06-29-2012, 12:39 AM
I can't believe you guys are arguing with Crash over this. Give it up already, he's right.

Our 4th quarter prevent D is one of the most horrible sights in football. And if you go back and read the gameday chats and count the number of prayers that go up when the Steelers are faced with 3rd and long, and the number of cusses that follow, you'll get a good idea of how safe people feel about the Steelers facing 3rd and long, partiularly when up by just a score, in the fourth quarter.

We haven't had decent 4th Q defence since Feb 09.

Slapstick
06-29-2012, 07:44 AM
I can't believe you guys are arguing with Crash over this. Give it up already, he's right.

...or, he just won't stop arguing regardless...


Take your pick.

Ghost
06-29-2012, 08:59 AM
Of the two, the defense is the only one which can claim to be elite. You would have to be a serious Steeler Hater to disagree with the defense earning that tag...it's pretty much a universal assessment. You would have to be completely blind however, to see that there have been serious problems when our defense is pressed by the pass. Whether it's 3rd and long or the 4th quarter, any good quarterback seems to be able to shred us. I think the vast majority of Steeler fans recognize this problem. Last year, it was compounded with getting few turnovers and sacks-which was something of an aberration.

I think this is what has so many of us perplexed and downright angry while watching, which leads to an exaggerated evaluation of the D, with talk of them sucking, etc. We know they have the ability to close out games and talent to be elite but yet they flounder on 3rd and long or making the final stop. With the way the NFL favors the O; you're never going to be able to totally shut down a team, but games like the one where Flacco drives over 90 yards for the win, make your head expode. Or watching Tebow flat out shred the D (still shaking head).

FlaSteel also makes a good point about the optimism we should feel with the the younger guys coming in or having another year of experience. Hopefully Hood & Heywood are fired up knowing how much time they will see and how much they'll be able to contribute. Maybe a couple of younger LBs really step it up. Hopefully a new O plan that puts up TDs instead of FGs gets everyone on the D excited. Knowing the O can put up points will allow the D to take more chances for splash plays.

SteelCrazy
06-29-2012, 06:15 PM
2011
325-21
227-1

2010
375-12
232-1

2009
368-12
324-12

2008
347-20
223-1

2007
393-9
269-2

2006
353-12
315-11

2005
389-9
258-3

These numbers our points scored and points scored against with league rankings. As you can see, the D has not done worse than 12th and finished #1, 2 and, 3 several times. However, the O has never done better than 9th and finished as bad as 21st and 20th. Blame the D all you want, but these numbers tell the truth.

Crash
06-29-2012, 06:51 PM
And when they are running the ball not trying to score but keeping the defense off the field? Who gets the credit?

SteelCrazy
06-29-2012, 07:24 PM
And when they are running the ball not trying to score but keeping the defense off the field? Who gets the credit?

The fact remains.......without this top rated D, Ben would have 0.0 SB wins 0.0 SB appearances.

Crash
06-29-2012, 07:27 PM
The fact remains.......without this top rated D, Ben would have 0.0 SB wins 0.0 SB appearances.

And the answer to my question is????????

SteelCrazy
06-29-2012, 07:35 PM
And the answer to my question is????????

They do not need to run the ball.....they need to score

Crash
06-29-2012, 07:44 PM
They do not need to run the ball.....they need to score

Well guess what? They aren't trying to score when all they do is run and milk clock.

SteelCrazy
06-29-2012, 07:51 PM
Well guess what? They aren't trying to score when all they do is run and milk clock.


And the reason they do that????

Because they know they have the best defense in the league and do not need to score a lot to get that all important W....

Go Steelers!

Crash
06-29-2012, 08:52 PM
And the reason they do that?

Because fans and ownership are obsessed with running the ball like they did 40 years ago. They are too pre-occupied with keeping the defense "rested" rather than just running their offense.

Then running doesn't work, the defense has to go on the field, they give up a lead, and then the passing game bails them out.

Slapstick
06-29-2012, 11:26 PM
Because fans and ownership are obsessed with running the ball like they did 40 years ago. They are too pre-occupied with keeping the defense "rested" rather than just running their offense.

Then running doesn't work, the defense has to go on the field, they give up a lead, and then the passing game bails them out.

The best solution offensively is this:

1) Have a running game that isn't predictable.

2) Have a red zone scoring offense that scores TDs more than 50% of the time.

The Steelers already have a good passing game. Take care of the above two things, which it appears they are doing this off-season, and it won't matter what the defense does.

Let the offense take care of their own business.

Crash
06-30-2012, 12:02 AM
Let the offense take care of their own business.

Art won't allow it. The way he blamed the offense for 2009 is proof of that.

They have to win HIS way, rather than the CORRECT way.

Slapstick
06-30-2012, 09:25 AM
Art won't allow it. The way he blamed the offense for 2009 is proof of that.

They have to win HIS way, rather than the CORRECT way.

Art will allow it. That's why Arians was let go and Haley was hired.

Crash
06-30-2012, 11:56 AM
Art will allow it. That's why Arians was let go and Haley was hired.

Haley was hired because of who his Daddy is. And IMO he'll be a cheaper alternative should Tomlin get fed up with II's meddling.

Arians was let go because Art wouldn't want to look like a bad guy for pushing LeBeau out the door.

They both should have been canned, or both retained.

Slapstick
06-30-2012, 12:04 PM
Haley was hired because of who his Daddy is. And IMO he'll be a cheaper alternative should Tomlin get fed up with II's meddling.

Arians was let go because Art wouldn't want to look like a bad guy for pushing LeBeau out the door.

They both should have been canned, or both retained.

Or, Haley was hired because he has been associated with successful offenses, both rushing and passing...

Or, Arians was let go because the Steelers' offense was great between the 20s and less than stellar in the red zone...also, Arians' play design depended too much upon Roethlisberger's escapability and not enough upon actual game planning...

Crash
06-30-2012, 12:12 PM
Or, Haley was hired because he has been associated with successful offenses, both rushing and passing...

If his Daddy wasn't Dick Haley we don't deal with him.


Or, Arians was let go because the Steelers' offense was great between the 20s and less than stellar in the red zone...also, Arians' play design depended too much upon Roethlisberger's escapability and not enough upon actual game planning...

Please, Ben's escapability in the offense is minimal. The overwhelming majority of his throws come from the pocket.

Blame Art for the red zone, he wanted the running game.

He got it.

Slapstick
06-30-2012, 02:43 PM
If his Daddy wasn't Dick Haley we don't deal with him.



Please, Ben's escapability in the offense is minimal. The overwhelming majority of his throws come from the pocket.

Blame Art for the red zone, he wanted the running game.

He got it.

No, he didn't.

If he had, the Steelers would be better than 21st in scoring and Arians would still be OC.

Crash
06-30-2012, 05:32 PM
No, he didn't.

If he had, the Steelers would be better than 21st in scoring and Arians would still be OC.

So again, you blame the offense when the defense forces 15 turnovers all year?

The Steelers were 12th in scoring in 2009. Art demanded a total re-vamping of the offense because Dick LeBeau is untouchable.

When the 4th quarter scheme sucks again in 2012? Who's going to fall on the sword for LeBeau then? Ben? Tomlin?

Slapstick
06-30-2012, 06:22 PM
So again, you blame the offense when the defense forces 15 turnovers all year?

The Steelers were 12th in scoring in 2009. Art demanded a total re-vamping of the offense because Dick LeBeau is untouchable.

When the 4th quarter scheme sucks again in 2012? Who's going to fall on the sword for LeBeau then? Ben? Tomlin?

I'm blaming the offense for not scoring TDs better than 50.9% in the red zone and not running the ball effectively...

Those are separate issues from any problems that you have with LeBeau's 4th quarter defense...

So, the defense only had 15 TOs and gave up 4th quarter leads all season...

Whether or not both of those are true, they have nothing to do with the offense's mediocrity once the ball is inside the opponents' 20 yard line...nor does it have anything to do with the predictable nature of the playcalling last year, especially in the running game...

feltdizz
06-30-2012, 06:55 PM
Running more effectively is revamping the offense? LOL.

Crash
06-30-2012, 06:56 PM
Whether or not both of those are true, they have nothing to do with the offense's mediocrity once the ball is inside the opponents' 20 yard line...

Art wanted the run game. Arians did what he was told. They had their highest YPC in 10 seasons despite constant shuffling at OL and their #1 RB was nicked up all year. Not sure what Art expected when dealing with all that. I guess that's what happens when lawyers start making football decisions.

If anything the fact they drafted both DD and Adams AFTER Arians left made Art's demands for more commitment to the run game all the more laughable. He needs to stay in the owners box, eat kielbasa and peel and eat shrimp, and stay out of football matters.

Don't tell me about production either, the offense in 2009 was 12th in scoring, had a 4000 yard passer, two 1000 yard WRs, the most promising deep threat at WR as a #3 in years, a 1200 yard rusher, and career year from Heath Miller. And Arians fell on the sword for LeBeau that season too.

Art wants 1970's football. And if Haley doesn't do it? He'll be gone too.

hawaiiansteel
06-30-2012, 07:30 PM
Arians is and always has been at best a mediocre OC.

Bruce Arians-led NFL offenses have averaged 336.3 points per NFL season, which doesn't even crack the top 19 offenses in scoring from 2011 and Arians' 22 points per game career average would not even break into the top 15 in the NFL this past year.

please stop making excuses for him, Arians simply needed to go.

Crash
06-30-2012, 07:44 PM
And coaching an expansion team in it's infancy shouldn't be taken into account either?

Like I said, who's going to fall on the sword for LeBeau next? If any other DC had the constant 4th quarter failures that LeBeau's scheme has had since XLIII they would have been long gone.

Slapstick
06-30-2012, 08:11 PM
And coaching an expansion team in it's infancy shouldn't be taken into account either?

Like I said, who's going to fall on the sword for LeBeau next? If any other DC had the constant 4th quarter failures that LeBeau's scheme has had since XLIII they would have been long gone.

If he'd called a better run game, like Art asked, and the offense scored more points, like they should have, there would be no sword falling...

hawaiiansteel
06-30-2012, 08:16 PM
And coaching an expansion team in it's infancy shouldn't be taken into account either?



are you referring to Arians' stint with the Indianapolis Colts from 1998-2000?

Arians wasn't the OC there, he was only their QB coach so those stats aren't being factored in.

Crash
06-30-2012, 08:50 PM
If he'd called a better run game, like Art asked, and the offense scored more points, like they should have, there would be no sword falling...

With Jonathan Scott, Chris Kemoeatu, and Doug Legursky starting?

Those guys are so good that they were all replaced for 2012.

Slapstick
06-30-2012, 09:24 PM
With Jonathan Scott, Chris Kemoeatu, and Doug Legursky starting?

Those guys are so good that they were all replaced for 2012.

And all of those guys are better run blockers than pass protectors...a more balanced, less predictable offenses would have made even those guys better..

Crash
06-30-2012, 10:11 PM
And all of those guys are better run blockers than pass protectors...a more balanced, less predictable offenses would have made even those guys better..

Art doesn't want balance. He wants to run the ball. 58% on first down Slap. 65% in the red zone.

Arians was fired, and THEN those players were replaced. If anything that shows just how handcuffed Arians was. Art wanted running with crap on the OL.

Btw, Steelers/Colts II is on NFLN right now. The Steelers defense gave up 15 points in that 4th quarter.

Whiz was the OC that year.

Players change, OCs change, head coaches change, and yet the 4th quarter scheme still sucks.

The one constant? Dick LeBeau.

Crash
06-30-2012, 10:47 PM
And the Steelers the way they played since 2004 has always been predictable on offense prior to Art's meddling: Pass early, run late.

The only difference? The talent on the OL. Compare the 2004-2005 OLs to what Arians has had as OC since 2007?

Not

even

close.

Slapstick
07-01-2012, 08:20 AM
If Art wants a commitment to the run, he probably wouldn't want to Steelers to pass 56% of the time...

Because, when they run that much on 1st down and pass the rest of the time? It makes the offense predictable...

That's why Arians was fired...

And, again, over the course of the entire season, the Steelers gave up fewer 4th quarter points than any team...

So the 4th quarter defense sucks, except for the 4th quarter?

Arians was not renewed because of the 4th quarter defense, and to say otherwise is completely irrational. Arians was no brought back because, when you examine the performance of the offense, they could have and should have done better. Period.

SteelCrazy
07-01-2012, 08:53 AM
Arians was not handcuffed. He was allowed to run the O any way he wanted, but it was proven year after year he sucked. So, in 2011 Art asked for some help from the running game because Arians pass happy schemes sucked. Ben has the talent to lead a pass happy scheme, but it has to be a well designed scheme, which Arians has proved he cannot design.

And for the comment that the O has been bailing out the D is beyond unobservant, it has to be denial.

Oviedo
07-01-2012, 10:25 AM
Arians was not handcuffed. He was allowed to run the O any way he wanted, but it was proven year after year he sucked. So, in 2011 Art asked for some help from the running game because Arians pass happy schemes sucked. Ben has the talent to lead a pass happy scheme, but it has to be a well designed scheme, which Arians has proved he cannot design.

And for the comment that the O has been bailing out the D is beyond unobservant, it has to be denial.

Arians took this offense as far as he could. He did a good job inplementing a scheme that allowed us to be relevent in the "pass first and pass often" NFL. His problem was that he was too focused on the vertical attack versus using short and medium range routes more often that would allow Ben to get rid of the ball and avoid the physical abuse he takes. He, like LeBeau, brought essentially the same template into every game and refused to deviate. When he did adjust the plan to the opponent like last year's Pats game it was a thing of beauty.

I have no doubt that Ben was also part of the problem and Arians didn't have it in him to force Ben to do what he didn't want to do. I think Haley will be more demanding. Ben won't like it but ultimately I think Haley will use all his weapons more equally. it should make us a better team but there will be fireworks. Should make for interesting viewing.

Crash
07-01-2012, 12:17 PM
Year after year? That's just foolish talk.

You watch, just like it is with Chan Gailey, if Haley's scheme sucks all of the sudden Arians will be thought of in a much better light.

Crash
07-01-2012, 12:20 PM
Arians was not renewed because of the 4th quarter defense, and to say otherwise is completely irrational. Arians was no brought back because, when you examine the performance of the offense, they could have and should have done better. Period.

Considering what he had to work with last season on the OL and the fact that Manny Sanders was also injured for most of the year? I think Art using Arians as LeBeau's scapegoat is hilarious.

Noticed you didn't comment on the 2005 Colts game.

Because all it does is prove me right.

You keep harping on the total 4th quarter. Don't really care they can beat up scrubs.

The 2011 season will forever be remembered for the embarrassment that Tim Tebow and Joe Flacco put on them.

You don't watch the games if you actually trying to praise their 4th quarter defense.

It's not possible.

Crash
07-01-2012, 12:22 PM
I have no doubt that Ben was also part of the problem and Arians didn't have it in him to force Ben to do what he didn't want to do.

If anything, that's EXACTLY what Arians did. The two/three TE sets are the weakspot in Ben's game, and Arians continued to do it.

That and appeasing Art's wishes for the run game were the biggest problem.

Slapstick
07-01-2012, 12:34 PM
That and appeasing Art's wishes for the run game were the biggest problem. [/COLOR]

It wouldn't have been a problem if he had actually done something with the run game.

Crash
07-01-2012, 12:53 PM
It wouldn't have been a problem if he had actually done something with the run game.

You mean like having their highest YPC in 10 years despite injuries all year to the OL?

Not sure what else Coach Art wants considering the cirumstances. I guess he doesn't watch the games either.

Wonder if Haley will go Buddy Ryan on LeBeau the first time his 4th quarter defense craps the bed in a big game?

Slapstick
07-01-2012, 02:11 PM
You mean like having their highest YPC in 10 years despite injuries all year to the OL?

Not sure what else Coach Art wants considering the cirumstances. I guess he doesn't watch the games either.

1) Highest YpC in 10 years? Stat Geek !!!!!

2) You must not have that great a memory about the 2nd Ravens game either...or didn't watch it...

In the 4th quarter of that second Ravens game, the Steelers defense forced a fumble that allowed the Steelers offense to score points on a short field and lead the game...

After the ensuing kickoff, the Ravens' offense went three-and-out in the 4th quarter, thanks to the Steelers' defense...oddly enough, the Steelers D DID NOT allow a TD immediately after the offense scored as you claim that they always do...the offense also got the ball back close to midfield, in excellent field position...

When the Steelers got the ball back, in great field position, with 4:30 left in the game, what happened? The same predictable Arians...the Steelers punt after a penalty at the Baltimore 29 takes them out past a 50 yard FG attempt...you've whined enough about the rest...

Art II probably wants the same thing we all want: less predictability and more effectiveness in the run game...it certainly would have helped in the 2nd Ravens game after the Steelers D forced a turnover and forced a three-and-out on the ensuing possession...but, we only excuse the offense's ineptitude...


Wonder if Haley will go Buddy Ryan on LeBeau the first time his 4th quarter defense craps the bed in a big game?

Haley will wory about scoring points. Like Art II wants him to do. Like we all want him to.

SteelCrazy
07-01-2012, 03:20 PM
Year after year? That's just foolish talk.

You watch, just like it is with Chan Gailey, if Haley's scheme sucks all of the sudden Arians will be thought of in a much better light.

Foolish talk is saying the O bails out the D. If Haley sucks then someone will start a firehaley.com site and Bruce will still be a fool in the redzone.

SteelAbility
07-01-2012, 05:15 PM
Much of the analysis here ignores the fact that there is ANOTHER TEAM ON THE FIELD, quite often with a whole lot of talent, and sometimes more talent (than we'd care to admit) than our beloved Steelers.

Slapstick
07-01-2012, 05:51 PM
Much of the analysis here ignores the fact that there is ANOTHER TEAM ON THE FIELD, quite often with a whole lot of talent, and sometimes more talent (than we'd care to admit) than our beloved Steelers.

This is absolutely true...

That is why it is useful to compare objective rankings among all teams in the NFL, so there is at least some kind of barometer to gauge the Steelers' performance...

But, apparently, only stat geeks and fantasy football fans do that...or so I'm told...

If you did that, however, you would see that the Steelers defense ranked #1 in scoring defense...

You would also see that the Steelers offense ranked #21 in scoring...

Based upon that, one might be able to determine that there is more room for improvement on the offensive side of the ball...

But, apparently, that is wrong...

One might consider that, with the two-time SB winning franchise QB, the two Pro Bowl WRs, Pro Bowl C and the first round draft picks spent at TE and RB, that perhaps sufficient talent was there on offense to perform better than 21st...in that case, one might surmise that the offensive coordinator position may require an upgrade...

But, apparently, that is again wrong...

Perhaps by analyzing the objective rankings, one can take into account that there are other teams with as much, if not more, talent in the NFL and identify in that way where improvement needs to be made...

And, perhaps, that doesn't make someone a stat geek...

Perhaps using that term, or telling someone that they don't "follow the team" or "watch the games" is a cheap and lazy ploy to discredit another's argument without having to resort to actual discussion or logic...

SteelCrazy
07-01-2012, 06:07 PM
From Pro Football Weekly, "An added punch on offense would make Pittsburgh all the more formidable, considering their strength on defense."

Those damn blind fans at PFW....

Crash
07-02-2012, 12:44 AM
1) 2) You must not have that great a memory about the 2nd Ravens game either...or didn't watch it...

The run game is not why they lost. They lost because the Ravens went 90 yards in two minutes after wisely using their timeouts.

Crash
07-02-2012, 12:47 AM
1)The same predictable Arians...the Steelers punt after a penalty at the Baltimore 29 takes them out past a 50 yard FG attempt...you've whined enough about the rest...

So just so we are clear here, Arians is responsible for a delay of game penalty when the FIELD GOAL TEAM was on the field?

Just freaking wow! You can hate the guy but that's just silly to blame Arians for that one.

Crash
07-02-2012, 12:48 AM
1)Haley will wory about scoring points. Like Art II wants him to do. Like we all want him to.

Art wants 1970s football. 2009 proves it. Using Coach II's criteria if Haley's offense isn't #11 or better in scoring regardless of turnovers forced Haley's offense is a failure.

Have to treat the "Pittsburgh guy" like you treat Arians.

Crash
07-02-2012, 12:51 AM
Perhaps using that term, or telling someone that they don't "follow the team" or "watch the games" is a cheap and lazy ploy to discredit another's argument without having to resort to actual discussion or logic...

Spare me. You've proven how ignorant you are when you "praised" the defense for the Texans game. That pretty much kills any credibility you think you have following this team.

You don't use logic, you read stats.

Slapstick
07-02-2012, 07:53 AM
What I'm saying is this (BTW, this will be an analogy):

Let's say that you have two dogs...

One of them takes a crap on the rug...

The other one pees on the kitchen floor....

Are you happy about one while being mad about the other?

Because I'm not happy about either one...apparently you are...

Slapstick
07-02-2012, 08:07 AM
Art wants 1970s football. 2009 proves it. Using Coach II's criteria if Haley's offense isn't #11 or better in scoring regardless of turnovers forced Haley's offense is a failure.

Have to treat the "Pittsburgh guy" like you treat Arians.

You can speculate about whatever you like Art II wants. There is no proof. That's why it's speculation....

If Haley's offense can't do better than 50.9% scoring TDs in the red zone, then his offense will be a failure...I don't care about turnovers, because the offense has no control over that...

Incidentallty, Arians' red zone offense started out pretty good, though not great, in 2007...it was still decent in 2008, but was mediocre in 2009, 2010 and 2011...possibly because it became predictable...

Slapstick
07-02-2012, 08:09 AM
Spare me. You've proven how ignorant you are when you "praised" the defense for the Texans game. That pretty much kills any credibility you think you have following this team.

You don't use logic, you read stats.

And you proved your ignorance by "praising" the offense for being able to score 10 whole points in the Texans game.

Yeah, that's logical...good call...you really schooled me there...:rolleyes:

Crash
07-02-2012, 09:43 AM
And you proved your ignorance by "praising" the offense for being able to score 10 whole points in the Texans game.

Um, no, I didn't. All I pointed out, and correctly I might add, is an offense can't score points when the defense is on the field for the opening 12 minutes of a game.

I also pointed out, and correctly I might add, that you also don't "praise" the defense for "stopping" the Texans in the 3rd quarter, when the Steelers offense holds the ball for 12 minutes themselves.

WATCH, don't READ.


I don't care about turnovers, because the offense has no control over that...

And the offense has no control over their limited chances to score because the defense doesn't create turnovers either. See what I mean? You just proved how ignorant you are in regards to football context. All you know how to do is read stats.

Congratulations.

Slapstick
07-02-2012, 10:36 AM
Um, no, I didn't. All I pointed out, and correctly I might add, is an offense can't score points when the defense is on the field for the opening 12 minutes of a game.

I also pointed out, and correctly I might add, that you also don't "praise" the defense for "stopping" the Texans in the 3rd quarter, when the Steelers offense holds the ball for 12 minutes themselves.

WATCH, don't READ.



And the offense has no control over their limited chances to score because the defense doesn't create turnovers either. See what I mean? You just proved how ignorant you are in regards to football context. All you know how to do is read stats.

Congratulations.

You are beyond inconsistent, you refuse to use logic and, often, your posts make no sense....

You complain about how LeBeau's defense doesn't play for an entire 60 minutes, but it's okay for the offense to score only ten points in three quarters, despite the fact that they went, what, 1 for 3 in the red zone against Houston?

Inconsistent.

You complain that the offense has limited chances to score because the defense didn't create turnovers and call me ignorant....

I'm not complaining about the offense's limited chances to score; I have a problem with the offense's mediocre success at scoring TDs when in the red zone...

It's a completely separate issue....why you are unable to comprehend that, I don't know...

It isn't logical.

You tell me that I'm a stat geek and that only you watch the games...but then quote stats to prove your point...

You complain that Art II and Todd Haley "won the sperm lottery" and how, because they never played a down in the NFL , they shouldn't even have their jobs...but, when someone points out that you have never played a down in the NFL, you get all indignant...

Your arguments are often incoherent ramblings..you will often refute a point that you, yourself, made in a different thread...

It makes no sense.

You tell me that all I do is read stats when you, yourself, are incapable of reading and understanding simple posts in English...

What's worse is that I have indulged all of your ridiculous, contrary, counterintuitive behavior...

My failing is not reading stats or not watching games...it is engaging you and attempting to discuss things with you on this board...

You are like teflon for proper discussions...

Flasteel
07-02-2012, 10:53 AM
What's worse is that I have indulged all of your ridiculous, contrary, counterintuitive behavior...

My failing is not reading stats or not watching games...it is engaging you and attempting to discuss things with you on this board...

You are like teflon for proper discussions...

Pull the plug now Slap...you are perilously close to being sucked into Crash's black hole of logic and reason.

Slapstick
07-02-2012, 10:57 AM
Pull the plug now Slap...you are perilously close to being sucked into Crash's black hole of logic and reason.

Oh, I know...

I've been hovering at the event horizon for far too long...pushing my luck...

Eich
07-02-2012, 11:04 AM
For some reason, Crash wants the Steelers to operate just like Daniel Snyder and the Washington Redskins: If we don't win a championship, bring in as many new people as possible. Get rid of Lebeau - the guy our players would probably die for - and replace him with WHO? Not that Crash's opinion matters here as he's wanted to bring in guys like TO, Antonio Brown, Moss, Henson, Jeff George, etc.. - guys who have won SQUAT.

It's just all gloom and doom for Crash. Everyone not named Ben sucks. Arians sucks, Tomlin has never played, Lebeau needs to go, they don't value Ben, we'll go 5-11 in 2004, they're going to dump Ben for a $60M salary savings, on and on and on and on. And all the Steelers have done since the 70's is become one of the greatest teams in history.

To say that our D can't stop opening drives, can't stop the other team when we score and can't stop anyone in the 4th quarter is not reconcilable with the fact that the D was number one in points allowed - even in the 4th. EVERY DEFENSE IN THE NFL has trouble with then opposing offense comes out agressive and slinging the ball around. The rules are written to give the offense an advantage in the passing game. Yes, our defense can be vulnerable just like other defenses. It just so happens that our defense has also been the best at preventing something quite important: Points.

All Crash's arguments are in complete circles that end up contracdicting themselves. The only reason I can think of for this is that he wants to argue and at the same time, he wants to have something he can point to later as being right about:

If the Steelers win it all in 2012: "See what happens when you value your QB and keep the defense off the field?"
If the Steelers don't make the playoffs: "You got what ARTII wanted" or "Lebeau needs to go" or ???

RuthlessBurgher
07-02-2012, 12:20 PM
For some reason, Crash wants the Steelers to operate just like Daniel Snyder and the Washington Redskins: If we don't win a championship, bring in as many new people as possible. Get rid of Lebeau - the guy our players would probably die for - and replace him with WHO? Not that Crash's opinion matters here as he's wanted to bring in guys like TO, Antonio Bryant, Moss, Henson, Jeff George, etc.. - guys who have won SQUAT.

Fixed that for you. We already have an Antonio Brown. ;)

Crash
07-02-2012, 03:31 PM
You complain about how LeBeau's defense doesn't play for an entire 60 minutes, but it's okay for the offense to score only ten points in three quarters, despite the fact that they went, what, 1 for 3 in the red zone against Houston?

Um, no, it wasn't OK for the offense to score only 10 points. Never said it was.

But the point is, and will always be in regards to you, is that you lack football brains because my guess is you don't watch games as closely as you should.

Crash
07-02-2012, 03:36 PM
To say that our D can't stop opening drives, can't stop the other team when we score and can't stop anyone in the 4th quarter is not reconcilable with the fact that the D was number one in points allowed - even in the 4th. EVERY DEFENSE IN THE NFL has trouble with then opposing offense comes out agressive and slinging the ball around. The rules are written to give the offense an advantage in the passing game. Yes, our defense can be vulnerable just like other defenses. It just so happens that our defense has also been the best at preventing something quite important: Points.

So when our offense holds the ball and keeps our defense fresh and on the sidelines, you credit the DEFENSE for "preventing" points?

Btw genius, the STEELERS offered Jason Gildon and two picks for Henson. I don't work for them.


If the Steelers win it all in 2012: "See what happens when you value your QB and keep the defense off the field?"

If the Steelers win the Super Bowl it will be because we won in a shootout. I have no confidence in LeBeau's scheme in the playoffs. NONE.

Apparently you do despite the fact that they have given up 620 yards and 5 TD passes in their last two playoff games.

Jooser
07-02-2012, 04:32 PM
So you base your criticism on solely the last two playoff appearances and the Houston and Baltimore games last year? What about the 12 games we won? I suppose that logic doesn't quite add up, does it?

Crash
07-02-2012, 04:40 PM
So you base your criticism on solely the last two playoff appearances and the Houston and Baltimore games last year?

Nope. I base my criticims on Dick LeBeau's career. The warts this defense has are the same warts they've had since he came back in 2004.

1. Opening drives of games.

2. Give back points.

3. 4th quarter defense in close games.

Just watch and pay attention.

You'll see for yourself.

Jooser
07-02-2012, 04:49 PM
All coaches and teams wear warts Crash. It's the NFL, anyone can beat you on any given Sunday. Players have bad days, and so do coaches. Guess what, other teams scheme against us and try to exploit weaknesses. You can't have a perfect unit, there will always be trends here and there, and that's where you try to improve. Overall, the defense has outperformed the offense season after season and that's just absolute fact. I think you need to pay attention yourself and give up this relentless march against the defensive unit, you haven't convinced anyone that the defense is the weak link on this team, not by a long shot.

Crash
07-02-2012, 05:00 PM
All coaches and teams wear warts Crash. It's the NFL, anyone can beat you on any given Sunday. Players have bad days, and so do coaches. Guess what, other teams scheme against us and try to exploit weaknesses. You can't have a perfect unit, there will always be trends here and there, and that's where you try to improve. Overall, the defense has outperformed the offense season after season and that's just absolute fact. I think you need to pay attention yourself and give up this relentless march against the defensive unit, you haven't convinced anyone that the defense is the weak link on this team, not by a long shot.

Not trying to convince anyone.

Just watch the games and pay attention.

Jooser
07-02-2012, 05:49 PM
I do watch the games and I DO pay attention, but I don't see things the way that you do. Careful branding the rest of the world as the crazy ones my friend.

Crash
07-02-2012, 07:47 PM
I do watch the games and I DO pay attention, but I don't see things the way that you do

Then you don't watch.

Not possible.

Our "defense" is the OFFENSE holding the ball.

Slapstick
07-02-2012, 08:00 PM
Um, no, it wasn't OK for the offense to score only 10 points. Never said it was.

But the point is, and will always be in regards to you, is that you lack football brains because my guess is you don't watch games as closely as you should.




Then, once again, you have guessed wrong.

Slapstick
07-02-2012, 08:05 PM
From BTSC:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2011/11/29/2595283/steelers-defense-dick-lebeau-polamalu-woodley-nfl-defensive-stats


Last night was the latest example. By all rights, the game against the Chiefs (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/teams/kansas-city-chiefs) should have been a laugher in Pittsburgh's favor. Tyler Palko (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/19008/tyler-palko) was only making his second career start at quarterback, and for much of the game, he looked like a guy who was making his second career start at quarterback. He was responsible for three first half turnovers that should have led to a pretty easy night for the Steelers. Unfortunately, the offense scored just 10 points off of those takeaways, and the Steelers only led 13-9 in the closing moments. Despite looking pretty atrocious for most of the game, Palko was beginning to gain momentum on Kansas City's last drive as he completed a couple of big conversions on 3rd and 4th down and had his team at the Steelers 37 yard line with 38 seconds remaining. Just when it looked like the Steelers might suffer another heartbreaker on Sunday Night Football, Keenan Lewis (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/71114/keenan-lewis) saved the day by intercepting a Palko pass intended for Dwayne Bowe (http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/18956/dwayne-bowe), and the Steelers escaped with their sixth victory in the last seven games.

The last second defensive stand marked the fourth straight game in-which the opposing offense had the football with a chance to either win or tie the game in the closing moments. In three of those situations, the defense thwarted the comeback attempt and preserved the victory.

That might just seem like another day at the office for a Dick Lebeau defense, but what killed the 2009 Steelers, more than anything, was the inability of the defense to hold fourth quarter leads. The unit failed to protect late leads in devastating losses to Chicago, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Baltimore and Oakland, and when the playoffs began, the Steelers were watching at home with everyone else.

So, while this defense might not be as opportunistic as the 2010 version or as menacing as the 2008 edition, it's ability to take a stand at the end is what separates it from the 2009 unit, and that, more than anything, is why the 2011 Pittsburgh Steelers are sitting pretty at 8-3 and haven't suffered the same type of devastating losses.

But, this guy probably doesn't watch the games either...

Crash
07-02-2012, 08:21 PM
But, this guy probably doesn't watch the games either...

So he's giving "credit" for the defense holding on to win at Cincinnati AFTER they managed to blow the lead after the offense scored 14 points in 2 series to open the game?

They blew the Ravens game the week before.

And what happened against the Pats? LeBeau's 4th quarter defense folded like a cheap suit after Suisham's FG miss and the prevent defense gave up a TD. Then the offense chewed up 2:17 of the final 2:35 on the clock (See how good the 4th quarter defense "looks" when they stand on the sidelines?) before the defense went back on the field.

Has the defense fallen THAT FAR, that we have to "praise" them for managing not to blow a 4th quarter lead in the last 18 freaking seconds?

Truly sad and embarrassing.

SteelAbility
07-02-2012, 09:27 PM
Nope. I base my criticims on Dick LeBeau's career. The warts this defense has are the same warts they've had since he came back in 2004.

1. Opening drives of games.

2. Give back points.

3. 4th quarter defense in close games.

Just watch and pay attention.

You'll see for yourself. [/COLOR]

Since LeBeau came back in 2004 ... Steelers have won 2 Super Bowls ... in 8 years ... that's one every 4 years which is eight times our statistical fair-share. Awful! I guess the 21st ranked O should get all the credit and the #1 or #2 ranked D just "got lucky". Genius! Why didn't I think of that?

Look, there is credit and blame on both sides of the ball dude. There is no objective metric here to prove one point or the other. Any argument can be made BOTH WAYS. The senseless arguments are the ones that put a magnifying glass on certain points/stats/observations and a microscope on an opposing points/stats/observations and then expect the other guy to see the wisdom of it all. It goes BOTH WAYS. There's no way out of it.

Crash
07-03-2012, 12:53 AM
Look, there is credit and blame on both sides of the ball dude. .

I'm one of the few that realize that dude.

Slapstick
07-03-2012, 08:41 AM
I'm one of the few that realize that dude.

Then why do you argue just to argue?

ikestops85
07-03-2012, 10:13 AM
Not trying to convince anyone.

Just watch the games and pay attention.

I think your problem is you only watch Steeler games. You fail to realize that the vast majority of teams with good defenses have the same problem that we do in the fourth quarter. Watch the other games and see if it isn't true. Go take a look at the Ratbird games from last year. See if they didn't let teams come from behind on them. The rules favor a passing team and if it's late in the 4th quarter you give them 4 downs instead of 3. That makes a big difference on keeping drives alive.

Now if we had an offensive powerhouse like NE, NO and GB then it wouldn't matter whether our defense was good or not. We would blow teams away before the 4th quarter even starts.

grotonsteel
07-03-2012, 10:50 AM
Now if we had an offensive powerhouse like NE, NO and GB then it wouldn't matter whether our defense was good or not. We would blow teams away before the 4th quarter even starts.


Steelers can be a offensive powerhouse if Steelers stop playing Marty ball as soon as they take a lead. Run-Run-Pass-Punt playcalling has to be scraped.

feltdizz
07-03-2012, 01:08 PM
Steelers can be a offensive powerhouse if Steelers stop playing Marty ball as soon as they take a lead. Run-Run-Pass-Punt playcalling has to be scraped.

and this is why we have a new OC...

we need to let him cook instead of using old data from BA...

Oviedo
07-03-2012, 01:15 PM
and this is why we have a new OC...

we need to let him cook instead of using old data from BA...

C'mon! We all know the new OC will be a bum and know nothing smuck by the third game of the season. The many experts are already reviewing his work.

Crash
07-03-2012, 05:48 PM
and this is why we have a new OC...

we need to let him cook instead of using old data from BA...

BA cooked in 2009. Was ordered to revamp the offense.

You still don't get it, ART II WANTS MARTY BALL!

steelz09
07-03-2012, 08:08 PM
Crash ... didn't you praise Art II for overruling Cowher and selecting Big Ben? Now, your back to "he's just a lawyer" talk?!? I need to find that thread where someone called you out on that. I'll put it as my signature :)

NJ-STEELER
07-03-2012, 10:29 PM
with willie gay starting at corner the last few years. anyone shouldnt have been overconfident about the passing Defense

birtikidis
07-03-2012, 11:26 PM
We wanted Marty ball so bad we neglected the most important part of what makes Marty ball realistic. The offensive line. Instead we drafted a couple wr's in the first round, a spread offense running back in the first round, a pass catching TE and etc etc. granted we haven't been in position to draft a stud LT. But the last few years we've had a rotating group of undrafted guys on the o-line. Arians is a good x's and o's coach. But he's terrible at utilizing the players he has.

RuthlessBurgher
07-04-2012, 12:01 PM
BA cooked in 2009. Was ordered to revamp the offense.

You still don't get it, ART II WANTS MARTY BALL!

The only stat that matters from 2009 was 9-7 (missed playoffs after winning a Super Bowl the previous season).

RuthlessBurgher
07-04-2012, 12:05 PM
Crash ... didn't you praise Art II for overruling Cowher and selecting Big Ben? Now, your back to "he's just a lawyer" talk?!? I need to find that thread where someone called you out on that. I'll put it as my signature :)

No...that was Art II's dad, Irish Ambassador Dan (even though this was the 2004 draft and Art II officially replaced his father as team president as of 2003...Dan has been a chairman since then).

Prowler
10-14-2012, 02:02 PM
Maybe Crash was right about our defense.....just saying.

feltdizz
10-14-2012, 07:34 PM
Yep... .....

hawaiiansteel
10-21-2012, 02:37 PM
Maybe Crash was right about our defense.....just saying.

a broken clock is right twice a day...

feltdizz
09-29-2014, 11:48 AM
That's 12 blown 4th quarter leads in 36 games since LeBeau scapegoat Bruce Arians was fired and Ben Roethlisberger was told to change how he plays.

Gonna be sad for Art II when Ben wins a ring with Arians in Arizona.

very damaging stat...

I remember when our D used to win games.

Steelhere10
09-29-2014, 12:07 PM
They give Dickey all the resources that he need and he still screw up. 77 years of age. Coaching should end somewhere in the60's.

WVSteelerfan
09-29-2014, 12:26 PM
I'm sick of 10 yard cushions, moreso when we're in a prevent in the 4th. We always perform better when we play tighter on the wideouts. No doubt, the defense underachieved, but a large part of that was the soft scheme in the secondary.

skyhawk
09-29-2014, 07:11 PM
The DBs HAVE been playing tighter coverage on the receivers this year.

The Steelers still have the worst 2 minute/4th Q defense of the past 10 years.

We all KNEW that the Bucs were gonna score to take the lead.